09/07/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

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Andrew is joined by justice secretary David Lidington, education secretary Angela Rayner, Lib Dem MP Vince Cable and actress Stockard Channing. Music comes from The Lumineers.

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Heat rising and the politicians, frankly exhausted, desperate


On the surface, everyone's trying to radiate confidence.


Theresa May assures the G20 she's staying on.


Jeremy Corbyn's greeted as a conquering hero


But behind the smiles, endless intrigue, endless plotting,


and its all dripping into this morning's press.


At Westminster there's nothing more lethal than a summer party.


The new Justice Secretary, David Lidington, isn't,


so far as one can tell, plotting to be leader


But he's here to answer some big questions on Brexit,


On the Labour side, I'm joined by key Corbyn ally


and fast-rising star, Angela Rayner.


You'd think the Labour family, at least, is warm and united.


And from the Lib Dems, as they head towards a leadership coronation,


the man who will be king, Vince Cable, on what on earth


And reviewing the news, one of the shrewdest analysts


of the British Left, Stephen Bush, from the


New Statesman, who predicted the Corbyn phenomenon before it


happened, the deputy editor of the Sunday Times, Sarah Baxter,


and the Conservative commentator, editor of Reaction, Iain Martin.


And from The West Wing to the West End.


Stockard Channing on her angry return to the London stage.


The Lumineers will be lighting up the studio later.


# You've been on my mind girl # Oh This Is Us Fehily I#


Iraqi government forces say they're within hours of recapturing


the Iraqi city of Mosul from Islamic State militants.


Soldiers have been celebrating in the streets of the Old City


and civilians have been emerging from the rubble


Sporadic fighting has continued, but a final declaration


The number of mobile phones and drugs smuggled


into prisons is unacceptable, according to the Government.


More than 20,000 phones and SIM cards and over 200 kilograms


of narcotics were found in jails in England and Wales last year.


The seizures follow a ?2 million investment in technology


The Government has promised to recruit more prison officers


The parents of Charlie Gard have said the fight is not over ahead


of a new court battle over his treatment.


Connie Yates and Chris Gard want to take 11-month-old Charlie,


who's terminally ill, to America for


The couple are expected to join supporters in delivering a petition


with more than 350,000 signatures to Great Ormond Street


A state of emergency has been declared in the Canadian province


of British Columbia, where the authorities are battling


Thousands of homes have been evacuated and some destroyed.


Most of the blazes started after lightning strikes


A wealthy businessman has submitted alternative plans


for a third runway at Heathrow, which he says would save


The hotel tycoon, Surinder Arora, suggests changing the design


of terminal buildings and reducing the amount of land built on.


A spokesperson for the airport said they would welcome views


on the plans during a public consultation later this year.


The next news on BBC One is at One o'clock.


Now the front pages are quite good for Theresa May today. There's the


Sunday Telegraph - Brexit, May plays the Trump card, that's about a


promise of a big, fast deal. Again there's the Sunday Times, similar


thing - Trump throws May a life line with trade deal. Sunday Express -


May dealt Trump card on Brexit. Same headline there, obvious pun. The


Observer a more pessimistic view with a stark warning from German


industry that Britain is not going to get the easy deal, easy access


into the single market that it thinks. Finally, I talked about the


poison dripping into the Sunday papers, May must quit now says chief


Davis ally. That's Andrew Mitchell and he doesn't deny saying she was


in trouble and has to stand aside. Whether that is really a plot or


not, we will discuss that later. We start with the G20, Sarah.


Yes, Mrs May has come back with a spring in her step because the world


leaders were very nice to her. Particularly Donald Trump, who


promised her a very big deal, a very powerful, a huge deal, we're not


sure what it involves. It's going to be huge! We know that. As you say,


China, Japan, India, she's coming back with something that could be


good for Brexit Britain. But we're only calling it a life line. She's


still on the ropes. Everything that she does is now seen within the


context of internal battles in the Tory Party. It's seen as a rebuke to


her Chancellor who had been saying that we have to stay as closely as


we possibly can to the EU in our deals. And there's plenty of


plotting going on. In-fighting is all over the place in the papers.


Meanwhile, we enjoy the G20 as a spectacle on many, in many ways,


including Ivana Trump between the Chinese president and Angela Merkel.


This is a fuzzy shot, but it's wonderful. We have here President


Xi, Angela Merkel, Theresa May, we have President Erdogan, hang on, not


elected first daughter Ivanka. I'm afraid it's not a very good look for


America. I speak as someone who is half American. It's not a good look


for the world's biggest democracy. Nor necessarily are the protests in


Hamburg a good look for Germany? Yeah, it's interesting the way in


which these summits now happen in that there's a bubble inside, where


all of that goes on, all of this. Then outside you have probably the


worst demonstrations and riots if you will actually since Genoa in


2001. There's a brilliant piece in Hamburg which explains just how


serious it was. Hundreds of injured police. What troubles me about it,


what people should be concerned about is that the atmosphere is so


febrile internationally at the moment. The global economy is not


quite as strong as everyone thinks it is. We're moving into an era of


protest and a rise of a resurgent hard left - These are people who


feel let down by the world economy. Precisely. The ingredients are there


as interest rates rise and we get in difficult economic decisions. Things


could be bumpier. Single most interesting piece I thought in


today's papers was the former Brexit minister, David Jones, who has left


the Government, writing really quite an angry and outspoken piece in the


Mail on Sunday. Yes, talking about the fact that there are people in


Whitehall who he says are trying to block Brexit or at least have a form


of Brexit which is so close to staying in we might as well have


never left. He references Hotel California. It comes back to the


Government's weakness. The problem for Theresa May, while she is mostly


the candidate of hard Brexit, as it were, one of the reasons why she


might be more secure than we think, the issue of money is the one trump


card she has kept. She hasn't ruled out continuing to pay into the EU to


get the standard of access. He's coming out explicitly against that.


The difficulty for the Government, it's hard to see any deal really


that commands majority support in the Conservative Party, let alone in


the House of Commons as a whole. It will get naturally quickly -- gnarly


quickly. There's a piece in the Sunday Times talking about how angry


the Remainers are with Theresa May. She's not making anybody happy at


the moment. In that piece, David Jones talks about treason and he


says there are four things that are going to happen if we're not


careful. We're going to stay in the single market, we're going to stay


in the customs union, we will stay under the European Court of Justice


and carry on paying money. That is not Brexit. That is not leaving.


There's an extraordinary quote in the same paper about a pro-Brexit MP


speaking anonymously saying, well, if it's a question of threatening


Brexit, if Theresa May's weakness means we're going to not get a


proper Brexit, we'd rather have a Labour Government for a while. I'd


rather bring the House down. What could possibly go wrong (! ) It


illustrates that Brexiteers and ultra-remainers need a holiday. They


need to go to the south of France and Spain and lie down for a while.


Having said that, there's this extraordinary difficulty that the


Tory Party has in that it's clear to everyone else that there needs to be


some form of xrmise or certain concessions -- compromise or


concessions delivered. A substantial part of the Parliamentary party


isn't going to want that. Wants no concession. There is a kamikaze


wing, for sure of the Tory Party which would rather lose power than


see their precious very hard Brexit be delivered. It's absolutely mad.


It wouldn't be the first time that Jeremy Corbyn has been


underestimated. You remember all the Labour moderates who thought oh,


we'll put him on the ballot what could possibly go wrong... It's a


small group, but so is the Government. This is interesting,


Jeremy Corbyn has been taking a hard line Brexit position and we were


teasing Labour last week with the Nigel Farage tweet, you know, Jeremy


Corbyn's almost a proper chap, he said. Actually the bigger question,


can Jeremy Corbyn use Theresa May's problems over things like the great


repeal Bill to force a Commons defeat which brings on the Autumn


election he wants? Yes, all he needs is an issue on which serve


Conservative MPs agree with the majority Labour view. This is an


issue where there is a majority consensus around the Labour view.


The great repeal bill next week will be uncomfortable for the Government


for precisely this reason, particularly around the issue of the


role of the ECJ. Most people recognise you have to have some kind


of xrmise. That's the view of the -- compromise. That's the view of the


Labour Party. Jeremy's personal politics are not that into the


European Court of Justice. He doesn't have religion on the EU.


He's a Euro-sceptic, but not a kamikaze Euro-sceptic. He's willing


to use this issue as a wedge. Fundamentally I think Labour thinks


they have the Remainor vote in the bag or substantial majority of it.


It reminds me a lot of what John Smith did over Maastricht Treaty,


where he agreed with the Government but when you're attempting to bring


down the Government it doesn't matter. It's about the numbers and


tactics. I mentioned Andrew Mitchell, who is alleged to be a key


ally of David Davis, you never know whether these things are true or


not, saying that Theresa May is in deep trouble and there needs to be a


leadership change. David Davis, if I were him, I wouldn't be happy with


the coverage because he's all over the papers. He is the obvious unity


candidate for the Tory Party in due course. He is the guy who could hold


things together. You can't do that if people think that you're


launching this as well. Yes Andrew Mitchell shouldn't be forgotten ran


David Davis' campaign in 2005, where Davis lost to David Cameron. I


think, yes there is a lot of plotting going on. A lot of


conversations going on. Andrew Mitchell says, this was a private


conversation, don't entirely recognise the words. No such thing


at the moment! Certainly in front of Tory MPs. Yes in our paper he's


quoted as saying people who think that should have a quiet lie down. I


think he's playing both ends on this game. The question really for


Theresa May is - and the difficulty and the reason she might be replaced


sooner than people think - is that a lot of this is going to come down to


authority. You talk about in the Mail it says the PM has lost all


authority. When you get to the next stage of doing a deal with the


European Union, a lot of it will come down to the personalities, can


the Prime Minister sit down with Macron and Merkel and make a


breakthrough? She has to come back next week and knock heads together


and reassert herself in a big way doesn't she? I'm sure she will


attempt that. How many Prime Ministerial relaunches have we lived


through? They tend not to work. If there's one issue where the


Conservatives have been on the back foot in some disarray, I guess, it's


tuition fees after that big offer from Jeremy Corbyn during the


election campaign. More news on that this morning. # Yes, this is an


issue I've been following closely because I have a daughter at


university. I definitely think the Tories have got themselves into a


big hole over this. Tuition fees have been a much bigger issue than


they ever dreamt of. What they're particularly embased about now is


the spotlight on the punitive interest rates that are going to be


charged on tuition fees. We're in a very low interest rate period. Kids


are running up debts of ?40,000, ?50,000 and are expected to pay 6%


interest on them coming this Autumn and the Government know that Jeremy


Corbyn will continue to win this issue hands down and maybe he will


any way, but I think we're saying, we're quoting sources close to the


Education Secretary this morning saying that they're going to review


those interest rates. We're calling for it in our leader. I'm sure those


interest rates are going to come down. It's inflation plus 3% is the


measure that. Happened under George Osborne. Maybe we can expect an


investigation by the Evening Standard. I'm not paying that on my


mortgage. Why should students pay it? If you don't pay your mortgage


for three years you lose the house. Whereas when I didn't pay my tuition


fees no-one repossessed anything. You are live on television. I think


the difficulty with tuition fees is it's actually a clever way the


treasure found of raising income tax on a group of people who didn't


vote. Jeremy Corbyn has politicised those people. Now it's an income tax


rise. We know how unpopular and short lived rises on income tax are.


On the Labour side a deselection row going on. Calls for mandatory


reselection of MPs which could threaten lots of Blairite or


centrist Labour MPs. Some of them are saying, if that happens we'll


cause by-elections. Yes, there is a good story by


Caroline Wheeler on it. Until we have a name it doesn't feel


plausible, not least because I actually think the deselections are


less likely to happen than people think. The average person voting for


Jeremy Corbyn is not someone on Twitter with a hammer and sickle, it


is someone who is worried about public services and the European


Union. The Labour Party is more in the country than people think. There


has been a huge malicious war against Luciano verger, hasn't


there, on Merseyside which has real echoes of the old militants. That's


when militants were strong in the past. Actually few MPs were


deselected. One was deselected because he was lazy. Actually the


Labour Party was less fractured than people believe. The average Labour


member is more disposed to their own MPs in people actually think. The


Labour Party is behind the scenes at war in its own way and I think the


moderates have got to work out how on earth they respond. And if


everybody was being well-behaved, disciplined, quiet and sticking on


the mineral water, we would have nothing to talk about so thanks to


all MPs from all sides and thanks to you for the paper review.


Fascinating. And if we're talking chillis,


then on the Scoville Scale, It's been hotter than scotch


bonnets, hotter than the habanero. It's been up there


with the Dragons Breath I love that comparison, and we have


got a mixed bag across the country today. It's not plain sailing for


everyone. We have more cloud today and it is rain bearing cloud with


plenty of sunshine further south but we have atmospheric pictures sent in


this morning. An hour or so ago this was in the south-west, in Scotland


we have the rain as I mentioned and it will continue to move across


Northern Ireland and central southern Scotland for the rest of


the day. We have a weather front here and another bump on that


weather front will pep up the rain this afternoon. Either side of it it


is drier, brighter and warmer than yesterday and we will see the mist


and low cloud lifting across Wales. Another very warm day, we could hit


28, 29, and if we do that could trigger under showers across the


Midlands into the south-east and East Anglia. Obviously those to


watch out for if you are travelling. Overnight fresh air to the north,


still in my old, muggy night across England and Wales. Some downpours


potentially tomorrow, a much more showery picture, and we are starting


to cool down although we have the heat hanging on in the south-east so


it looks a little more tricky for Wimbledon next week.


Oh dear. Sir Vince Cable has a reputation


as a somewhat pessimistic if often But now he's almost certain to be


the new Lib Dem Leader. I don't want to be rude but,


Sir Vince, it's almost There's no competition at the


moment, but I'm happy to take the job if that's what comes along. So


Gordon Brown Coronation, Theresa May Coronation, Sir Vince Cable... Is


there a lesson of history here? I think the last the Dem who got in on


a Coronation was Joe Grimond, a great role model, but I don't think


that's is terribly relevant. I am optimistic about what I and a good


team of colleagues can achieve. I think on the big issues of the day


like Brexit we are in exactly the right position, a long-standing


principle position that will be coming increasingly in line with the


mood of the country as the economy deteriorates so I am optimistic


about what we can do. With a leadership contest party has a


chance to look itself in the mirror, take some hard decisions and a clear


change of direction, for instance are you going to have your own


leadership manifesto? Will we see that before you come leader? Yes you


will, and I am working on it at the moment. We have a process in the


part of it comes to a conclusion in about 12 days, and I will have a


manifesto and it will set out what I and my colleagues will be able to


achieve. Are you going to lead the Liberal Democrats in a different


direction to Tim Farron? Tim did a good job, but the situation has


moved on. I think in two fundamentally different ways from


where we were two years ago. The first is the whole Brexit debate now


dominate the national agenda. I will have to approach that consistently


with where we were before but in a different parliament, and I think


the other thing which is different from a couple of years ago is that


the two major parties competing were in a fragile state. The division in


the Tory party is palpable, the Labour Party is already talking


about expelling 50 of its MPs for ideological deviation. This is a


very different world from the one Tim inherited. That was just a


Facebook page really, wasn't it. There's no real suggestion of that.


We have a generous policy to refugees and if they come they will


get food and accommodation. I don't know what will happen but it's a


symptom of very deep division on a fundamental point because Jeremy


Corbyn had a good election, but there is an element of a bubble


about it. He attracted large numbers of people on the basis he was


leading opposition to Brexit. Actually he is very pro-Brexit and


hard Brexit and I think when that becomes apparent the divisions in


the Labour Party will become more real and the opportunity for us to


move into that space will become more substantial. One of the things


Jeremy Corbyn did was he infused young voters partly by attacking the


tuition fees policy. You were the man who raised tuition fees to


?9,000, is your policy to keep it there, reduce or abolish them? It is


not to abolish them because the system has kept universities


properly funded, but there are clearly problems with the system.


The universities operate as a form of cartel so I am certainly up for


having a fresh look... Are you happy with a situation where people from


quite humble backgrounds can leave university with a debt of ?57,000


and high interest rates, is that fair? What is fair, and let's


remember this is not a system might party created, it was created by a


Labour government who promised not to introduce it and did, promised


not to increase it and did, supported by the Conservatives. I


substantially raised the threshold... You triple it to


?9,000. Yes, so it effectively operate as a form of graduate tax,


and increased the generosity of grants for maintenance. The


Conservative government then abolished that so there are


certainly things that need looking at. The one thing I would stress is


there are 60% of young people who don't go to university, they don't


get access to the student loans scheme. I have been working


specifically at further education over the last year so if we review


the system, and I am certainly up for being open-minded and pragmatic


about it, we have got to look at young people as a whole and not just


those who go to university. Should taxes overall grow up? Yes, I've


think there should be a shift in the balance. Comfortable bed in the


manifesto? Yes, some of the tax cuts in the capital side the Tories


introduced in 2015 we would end them so I am all in favour of fiscal


discipline, we have got to reduce the deficit on current spending so I


am in favour of fiscal discipline but I want to shift the balance away


from extreme cuts on public services which are particularly harsh on


local government and bit more tax to balance it and more financing of


capital investment for housing. On Brexit do you want Britain to fail


economically? No, I don't think the public voted to have cuts in their


standard of living and that's why... There are two objectives... The


reason I ask is because you said we would have to hang on while the


economy deteriorates and the mood changes, which makes it sound like


waiting for a disaster to happen and your moment. We need to see whether


the Government pursues the hard Brexit. We have got to work with


other people, as we did last week to try to head off the disastrous


outcome but it may well be that with the situation deteriorating in the


economy, as I think it will, people will realise well we didn't vote to


be poorer and I think the whole question of continued membership


will once again arise. Let me ask about this parliament because in the


end about 100 MPs voted for that motion, 16, which suggests the


single market issue is now dead for this parliament but you talked about


making alliances across parties. Do you begin to see an alliance


sufficiently deep into the Labour and Tory family as well of pro-EU


politicians which is big enough to frustrate Theresa May's ideas on


Brexit? Yes, I think a lot of people are keeping their heads down. We


will see what happens in the autumn when people come back. I'm beginning


to think Brexit may never happen. I think the problems are so enormous,


the divisions within the two major parties are so enormous, I can see a


scenario in which this doesn't happen. And certainly a policy of


having a second referendum, which didn't really cut threw in the


general election, is designed to give away out when it becomes clear


Brexit is potentially disastrous. One thing the party may be getting


if they take you as their new leader is experience and wisdom, and yet


the last week you compared Theresa May to Hitler. Now, I didn't at all.


I got my literary reference wrong, I think it was Stalin who talked about


rumours cosmopolitans. Citizens of nowhere phrase was quite evil, it


could have been taken out of Mein Kampf. That was a silly thing to say


come wasn't it? The next sentence said out of character. Thank you for


talking to us. Now, coming up later this morning,


Andrew Neil will be asking if Remainers are taking advantage


of Theresa May's weakness to scupper Brexit, and has debate


about the Grenfell Tower fire That's the Sunday Politics


at 11am here on BBC One. The Angela Rayner story


is a pretty remarkable one. She left school at 16 with few


qualifications and little She only came into the House


of Commons two years ago in 2015, but she's risen like a rocket


and is now in charge of Labour's The Shadow Education


Secretary joins me now. Thanks for coming in. Can I ask


first of all about access to education, is it true that fewer


working class kids are getting into university education as a result of


tuition fees? I don't believe that the case but I do believe many


working class and part-time and older mature students are leaving


university, and there's three things the coalition government helped with


the Conservatives that they have done that led to the disastrous


situation we are in today. Of course you mentioned the hike in tuition


fees but there was the removal of the maintenance grants, the


increasing percentage of the loans so they couldn't use the base rate


of the Bank of England, and they increased the percentage people paid


which I believe directly impacted, and of course the threshold of


income which meant more students would pay back more from the


beginning as well. Nevertheless the Labour policy is predicated on


something Jeremy Corbyn said, he said fewer working class people are


applying to university, that's not true, is it? Actually more people


are coming out of university, five times more are coming out of


university and not able to finish their degrees and I think that's a


direct impact of some of the Government changes. One mother, is


it true that fewer working class young people are applying to


university? The last Labour government had huge amount to


encourage aspirations to get more working class people into university


and we have record levels of people applying for university 's... I am


reading out something Jeremy Corbyn said that isn't true, and I'm asking


if it is true and you are giving answers to other things. I'm


clarifying, it is true but there are record amounts leaving and I think


that is because of the policies of the Government. They have done away


with maintenance grants, increased percentages of loans and lowered the


threshold for incomes that people are paying more early on. Because


it's not a marginal point. 73% more people from working-class background


have gone to university since the tuition fees were introduced, it has


gone up enormously. And the amount of people leaving


before they have their qualifications has gone up as well.


50% leave their courses before they've completed them. That is


directly as a result of the current policies of this Government. I'm not


defendening the current policy, I'm suggesting, for instance, 22% of


children who were eligible for free school meals now go to university.


Before this policy, it was 3% or 4%, it's a huge increase. Yes, some


people will fall out of the other end and get into financial trouble,


but many more people are going in the first place. It's great that


many are going. One of the things happening as well, many people are


leaving university and unfortunately are having to go to jobs where


they're not able to utilise their degrees as well. That's a real


scandal. That's why we've had a policy of looking at the further


education college and technical education. It's about lifelong


learning for everybody. My point to you is your spending as a party


about ?11 billion ending this tuition fee policy. Much of that


money will go to relatively affluent, middle-class and upper


middle class families and children. Would it not be better to spend that


kind of money on replacing some of the tax breaks taken away by the


Tories and spending it at the bottom end of society, because the Fabian


Society say you'd make poorer families worse off compared to


better off families. It's 9. 5 billion the amount we'll take for


the Student Loans Company to reverse the tuition fees. I make no


apologies for actually a huge amount of our manifesto was about national


education. We talked about early years. We talked about Sure Start


centres, which was the last Labour Government that introduced them.


We've lost a tremendous amount of our early years centres under the


coalition and the Conservatives. We talked about a package arranged from


the early years, cradle to grave, a national education service about


making sure that everyone has access to education. We know that's how you


make social progress. Absolutely right. That's how people can get on


in life. Right at the end of the campaign, seven days before polling,


Jeremy Corbyn said that he wanted to think about wiping out the current


student debt, which is a vast amount of money. He says you would be


working on that policy. That's not funded at the moment. Have you been


working on that policy? Do you have numbers about how much that will


cost? It's a big abacus I'm working on with that. It's a huge amount,


100 billion, which they estimate currently. 100 billion! It's a huge


amount of money. We also know that a third of that is never repaid. It's


a treasure trick. Were you surprised to be handed the abacus at the last


minute. I like a challenge. We have to deal with the debt crisis that


we're foisting on our young people. It's not acceptable. They're leaving


university with ?57,000 worth of debt. It's completely unsustainable.


We've got to start tackling that. Three things I call on the good of


the to do, that they can do immediately - reverse the


maintenance grants abolishing that. That will help the most


disadvantaged students. They can reduce the percentage rate that


students have to pay on their loans and they can ensure that the amount


that they repay, the income threshold goes up in line with


average earnings. They are things they can do before September to help


students out. Aren't you simply spraying around huge spending


promises too recklessly? Another ?100 billion on tuition fees is some


sofa you have to find. Jeremy said it's an ambition. It's something


he'd like to do. It's something we will not announce we're doing unless


we can afford it. You were at the Durham miners' gallament a picture


with Jeremy Corbyn, doing a selfie. They were chanting your name. A big


part of the current Labour leadership group. Can I ask you what


you feel about the fact that so many of your colleagues were disinvited


to that event. They were told they weren't supportive enough of Jeremy


Corbyn and they weren't going to be given hospitality by the Durham


miners? I don't like anything in the Labour family that disenfranchises


our movement. We are a big movement. We're all the better for it. At the


moment we should concentrate on making sure we're next for the next


general election. That manifesto, I believe, was the best manifesto


Labour had done since the 1945 Labour manifesto. I think it offers


hope. If we're divided and we're fighting each other, we're not going


to be able to implement that. After the Luciana Berger row, one thing


was obvious, almost the complete silence from colleagues speaking in


her support. Can you say something in her support? I work with her on


campaign for mental health. I personally have been affected by


that with my mum, since I was about the age of ten. I know how it


affects families. She's done a tremendous amount of work. She's a


valued member of the team. Anyone that talks of deselecting any of my


colleagues, quite frankly, they need to think about actually who are the


real enemy here? Who are making the problems for our communities? Who


have made those disastrous policies that are hurting the people that


need us the most? It doesn't help them if we're fighting each other.


What about the those people who say we're too broad a church in the


Labour Party, we ought to be narrower? I love the church that I'm


in in the Labour Party. It's my religion. I've been born and raised


in the Labour movement. I will be happy that it's as vibrant and


democratic as it is. Great talking to you. Thank you very much indeed.


Ever since she stole the show as Rizzo in Grease,


Stockard Channing has been a constant star of stage and screen


Her new London stage role in the play, Apologia,


sees her playing a radical left feminist with major family issues -


a flinty, abrasive woman as evidenced by this


He was dashing and angry and had the biggest hands you've ever seen.


He built furniture and wrote dark poems, and I fell in love with him.


He was also eracible, moody, manipulative -


mentally cruel, emotionally stunted and chauvinistic


He suffered a massive stroke and died in exactly 36 seconds.


Much to my disappointment, he was denied the joys


of self-reflection on the death bed and if that isn't lucky,


It portrays her nearly as a kind of monster


and an emblem of that old cliche, the left love humanity,


they don't really like individual human beings or the people


Well, I don't know if that's quite true.


She has two sons, one in early 40s, the other late 30s.


The elder of whom is a captain of industry, if you will,


They were taken away from her when they were about,


So their feelings about that separation and life


And the terrible thing from their point of view


that she has done recently, she's written a memoir in


No, because she's a pretty intelligent woman.


I think in ways, she was pretty much aware if she did mention them it


As she puts it, she didn't want to air her dirty laundry,


which in her mind is her own emotional response to certain events


happening in her life - especially her children being taken


She is an extremely private person, which also makes her a bit at odds


in the world we live in when people are writing these memoirs


She's a completely private human being.


But there is a good example, one thing has really changed


from your character's point of view absolutely for the better,


Yes, I think now we're giving feminism a bad name.


Obviously we still haven't got the equal pay thing.


It's cliche, but it's true, a lot of young women take for granted.


There's certain ways of living one's life,


When I was in college, I remember that kitchen table stuff.


It was really very scary, life threatening.


That's something that a lot of people seem to take for granted,


Having said that, I do think that the sort of militant feminism


stuff has left its mark in a cliched way, whereas the real thrust of it,


Your character in this reminds very slightly of the president's


In a sense the same generation and the First Lady there is herself


a bit of a feminist, she's a strong woman and so forth.


She has a private life which she likes to keep


That was an enormously popular series, here as well as in America.


I wonder if it's because of the essential optimism of The West Wing.


The underlying theme was that people go into politics


for the right reasons, they're basically good people.


Do you think it's a little bit too sugary?


I think it's something to bear in mind in the world we're living


in, that as we go through these swirling waters that we're


in right now and the rapids, I think it's kind of good to keep


That thing of people standing around the water cooler,


The West Wing was that kind of TV show.


Rizzo from Grease, that was your huge breakthrough role,


That's the indication that the world has changed.


The fact it was so popular, it was basically about a bunch


of teenagers was sort of frowned upon in those days.


Everybody thought they should be making wonderful,


interesting movies as opposed to this gangbuster.


# That's the worst thing I could do #.


Who knows why it continued to be so popular over the years.


But at the time, it was kind of dismissed.


I was kind of dismissed along with it for a while.


Then everything seemed to turn out OK.


Stockard Channing, lovely to talk to you.


Thank you very much, it's a pleasure.


And Apologia, directed by Jamie Lloyd, opens


at the Trafalgar Studios in London on July 29.


During the Brexit referendum, my next guest was one of the most


outspoken supporters of the European Union.


Now the new Justice Secretary, David Lidington, has problems closer


to home on his plate - the still-burning row over


the Grenfell Tower inquiry and the state of Britain's prisons.


Can I start with the Grenfell Tower inquiry, do you have absolute


confidence in Sir David Morbeck as the chairman of the inquiry? Yes,


the way it worked when the Prime Minister wanted a full scale public


inquiry, I called the Lord Chief Justice and said please find us a


judge with the right background, seniority to get to the truth. He


came up with Sir Martin, somebody held in huge respect by other


judges. He's somebody with no interest in this other to get to the


truth and see justice done. What the residents and others living in the


area seem to fear is that the remit will be too narrow, who actually


sets the remit for the inquiry? Under the law, the 2005 act, the the


terms of reference are ultimately set by the chair of the inquiry in


conjunction with the department commissioning it. So you are


involved? No, the department commissioning this will be the


Cabinet Office and Number Ten. I play the role of asking the


judiciary to find the judge to do the job there. What Sir Martin is


doing as was promise issed to consult the residents, trying to


make sure that their expectations are taken into account. So the


Government could say to Sir Martin - can we have a broader remit than


you've suggested? We've got to be careful about one thing, this has


come up in the debate about the scope of the inquiry, the inquiry


doesn't look into criminal guilt or innocence. There's a separate police


inquiry going on into that matter already. What a lot of the residents


seem to be worried about is that part of the story of the terrible


thing that happened there was about years and years and years of


underfunding in local government is essentially a political story.


Therefore the inquiry is being narrowed to avoid that. When we look


at what's come out in the last few weeks since the tragedy, with tower


blocks in authorities of all political colours failing the


combustibility test, fire regulations, if we want to start


pointing fingers, you know brought in under the Blair Government - all


political parties need to do soul searching about this. I'm confident


we will get terms of reference that will get to the truth about what


happened, not just in terms of, you know, what happened on that


particular day. The bigger story. But the regulatory decisions and


responsibilities that led up to that. If regulatory failures and


frankly spending cuts were partly to blame for the story, that will come


out from the inquiry? Well, it's up to Sir Martin to determine exactly


how the inquiry goes. Of course, he can compel any witness to attend


under pain of a criminal offence and he can compel witnesses to give


evidence under oath as well and evidence in his inquiry can, if the


police and Crown Prosecution Service think it justifies it, later be used


for criminal prosecution as well. I think he is very, very determined to


get to the full truth about this. Are you content with the state of


Britain's prisons under your Government? No. I'm not content with


the state of prisons, frankly, this is a state of affairs that has gone


back under successive governments. What I'm determined to do is to try


to bring about improvements, build on what my predecessor did in


getting extra prison officers, in putting in place effective measures


to detect more accurately the problem we have with drugs, the new


challenge we have with drones and mobile phones in prison, so they're


more secure places. Also want to see us get better as a country at using


the time during which we have people in custody to get them better


educated, get them better trained, more employable, so there's a


stronger chance to lead a law abiding life when they get out.


Since 2010 attacks on prison staff has gone up by 81%, sorry up by 140%


and prison assaults up by 81% - why? I think it's a number of things. But


I think one reason is that, certainly in recent years, that


we've had this new problem of what used to be called legal highs,


psychoactive substances coming into prisons in a big way. The prison


population shifted in character over that period of time. We've got more


gangsters. We've got a higher proportion of prison population that


are sexual and violent offenders. It's not just a youngburgler. You


need more people to look after them. You cut 7,000 frontline prison


staff. I know you're hiring a few more thousand now, but you're still


way down on 2010. That is also surely part of the story.


What happened in 2010, as is the case with my ministry and every


other ministry, in the face of the deficit tough decisions have to be


taken. Since then, as we have managed to bring the deficit down,


have restraint on public sector pay, it has bought us the breathing space


to hire extra staff in prisons where we need to deploy them. We have 2500


additional prison officers coming in, about 1000 of those have been


deployed already. The chief inspector of prisons says prisons


have become unacceptably violent and dangerous places and that is in part


because of the cuts made to the present staff. I don't descend from


the view that this is an unacceptable state of affairs.


There's also too much self harm in prison which means we need to


deliver better mental health assessments and mental healthcare


than we are doing at the moment. Do you accept this is partly due to


prison officer numbers? Let me read you what the just select committee


said. It is not possible to avoid the conclusion that efficiency


savings, staffing shortages and other factors have made a


significant contribution to the deterioration in safety. Are they


right? We need to get numbers up, but we need to do other things too -


improving regimes, get better at detecting illegal drugs and mobile


phones in prisons, and moving capital programme, about ?1.5


million, to close some of these antiquated Victorian prisons and


have new prisons that are easier for staff to manage effectively. I'm not


quite going to let the stuffing thing go yet because the Chief


inspector himself said you need another 8000 staff in prisons. I put


it to you that every single red warning light around your desk from


all of the committees, the reports and statistics is flashing red at


the moment and so as the new Justice Secretary you need an urgent review


of British prisons. I think we have a good strategy for the improvement


of security regimes that was published earlier this year, a


strategy I'm determined to follow through, but one thing... In the


past year alone, assault on staff have risen by 38%. One of the key


objectives is to bring down the level of violence and self harm in


prisons, and a number of policies have been set out to secure that.


Even in just four weeks of doing this job, what struck me is that I


have looked at a lot of reports across my desk and it seems a lot of


recommendations in the past have not been implemented. The actual


situation in prisons is pretty horrific, there was a case in


Norwich last week of a guard being stabbed in the neck and one of the


prisoners said there are so few staff that the prisoners are


safeguarding the staff and not the other way round. I put it to you


that you should say we need to spend more money and fast. I agree the


levels of violence in prisons are unacceptable, around the Cabinet


table we will be discussing these issues about different priorities,


in the context also in the need to be aware we have to find the funding


of any public spending we agree. Let me turn to Brexit. As I said at the


beginning you were a very fierce supporter of the European Union


during the referendum campaign and we are not told we can have all of


the benefits of single market access without being inside the EU. Can I


tell you what Michel Barnier said about this this week.


I have heard some people in the UK argue that one can leave the single


I have heard some people in the UK argue that one


can leave the single market and build a custom union to achieve


And that is the truth, is it not, but we face a really tough choice


between having the free access to the single market, all of those


advantages, and effectively staying inside the EU despite the referendum


or getting out completely and not having those advantages. I don't


think that what Michel Barnier said in that clip was terribly different


from what the Prime Minister acknowledged the day Article 50 was


triggered in her letter to Donald Tusk, she said we accept we cannot


have some but not accept all of them. David Davis talked about it


being the exact same benefits after leaving and Michel Barnier is making


it clear that can not be the case. We need to try to get the best


possible access for our businesses to Europe and freedom to operate


within the European market and for businesses to do so here, but what


the Government faced was basically a choice. There were two models once


people have taken the decision to leave the EU. One is being in the


economic area like Norway, which means you have to accept freedom of


movement and you must also accept... You pay in. You pay in and all of


the rules you have to implement although you have no seat at the


table when the decisions are taken. It has been called government by


fax. The other model which the Government has decided to go for is


a very ambitious trade and cooperation agreement, along the


lines of a country like Canada has got, because we are already bringing


in things like security and judicial police counterterrorism operation


too that enables us to be outside the jurisdiction of the European


Union. We will have left but we will continue to build this new deep and


special partnership with our EU colleagues. Is it possible for


British business to have as good access to the single market as it


does now once we have left the EU? That will depend not just on us but


the European 27. The repeal Bill will repeal the European Communities


Act in the jurisdiction of the EU in this country but at the same time


put all current EU legal obligations and regulatory obligations and


standards onto a British legal basis. If the EU decides to


introduce more restrictive and protectionist measures in the


future, clearly we would not be in compliance with those but it seems


to me it is in the mutual interests of everybody to try to make sure


that our businesses all prosper from having access to each other's


markets. You thought during the referendum campaign that leaving the


EU would be a catastrophe for British business and prosperity.


Looking now from where you are, and looking at what Donald Trump and


others have said at the G20, do you regret what you said then? No, and I


took a very firm view in that campaign and before that I thought


British interests were best served by staying in the EU but the people


took a different decision as they were democratically entitled to do.


I don't think we should set that aside and ignore it, it would do


immense harm to public confidence and democracy. Do you think of new


trade deal with Trump's America could make up most of the damage


done in the EU? Not entirely but it would be a good thing to have, as it


would with Asia and Latin America. Some of the frustrations sometimes


about being part of the EU is that while the mass of the EU gives it


some leverage in international trade, it moves at a taught us like


pace because all the member states have to agree, negotiating positions


so it gives us opportunities. You have seen all of the papers, you


have seen the extraordinary stories coming out from your colleagues


saying the Prime Minister has lost so much authority she can no longer


be in charge of this process and has to make way, possibly for David


Davis or somebody else. What is your message for your colleagues? I have


been in Parliament 25 years and almost every July a combination of


too much sun and too much alcohol leads to gossip stories in the


media. The key thing is the public has had an election, I think they


want the politicians to go away and deal with the real problem is that


people of this country are facing. Social care, digital technology. I


will leave you to deal with those problems shortly but time is running


out, and now look at what's coming off after this programme.


Should the Church be more welcoming to transgender people? Lord Grade


gets tough with pest calls from charities. And Jerry Springer


reveals why you would be tempting to run against Donald Trump. Join us at


ten o'clock. Join me again at the same


time next Sunday. For now, we leave you


with The Lumineers. They've topped the US and UK


album charts recently. They've been supporting


U2, no less, on tour. Great to have them here


in the studio today # And you can't see


past my blindness # You've been on my mind,


girl, since the flood # Heaven help the fool


who falls in love # You got big plans


and you gotta move # You've been on my mind,


girl, like a drug # Heaven help the fool


who falls in love # You've been on my mind,


girl, since the flood # Heaven help the fool


who falls in love # You've been on my mind,


girl, like a drug # Heaven help the fool


who falls in love For all the latest


political news and debate, tune in


to the Sunday Politics at 11, where we'll be analysing


the week's big stories and talking to the politicians


and commentators who count.


Andrew is joined by justice secretary David Lidington, education secretary Angela Rayner, Lib Dem MP Vince Cable and actress Stockard Channing.

Stephen Bush of the New Statesman, former BBC diplomatic editor Bridget Kendall and Iain Martin of the Times review the papers.

Music comes from The Lumineers.