02/07/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Turns out there is money to spend on social priorities after all.

Glossy and waving golden in the summer wind, the magic money

But, sorry, some bad news just in - it only grows in Northern Ireland.

Across the rest of the country, Tory ministers are now

going against their own manifesto and openly lobbying for magic

Labour is behaving as if they won the election

but - just as interesting - the Tories are behaving

Here today, the leading Brexit campaigner who launched his own

leadership campaign before being sacked by

Now she's brought Michael Gove back as Environment Secretary.

I wonder if magic money trees are part of his brief.

Jonathan Ashworth, Labour's health spokesman,

would like to give the tree a shake - but how generous is the Corbyn

team really going to be to hard-pressed public workers?

And in a week when parliament has really started to flex its muscles,

two backbenchers who've been making the news -

Labour's Stella Creasy and the Conservative Heidi Allen.

Heidi will be reviewing the news alongside

the author and anti-capitalist campaigner Naomi Klein

and the pro-capitalist Tim Stanley from the Daily Telegraph.

I've been talking to the creator of Downton Abbey, Julian Fellowes,

about his new musical version of the Wind in the Willows.

# The kind of furry animals who go for your throats.#

All that after the news read for us this morning by Ben Thompson.

The Government has promised that "nothing will be off the table"

in helping residents cope with the aftermath of

Kensington and Chelsea Council is to appoint a new leader this week

after three high profile resignations over the past few days.

The devastating fire that claimed so many lives has opened up a gulf

between residents and the council elected to represent them.

Is this the first good decision you've made, Mr Paget-Brown?

The leader, Nicholas Paget-Brown, is on his way out but Labour

councillor Beinazir Lasharie, who has just returned

of Grenfell Tower, says change is needed quickly.

Now that he has resigned, who is taking responsibility?

Yes, he should resign but yes he should take

People need to be in place to manage what's going on here.

As the community mourns the dead, the Government says the new leader

will be chosen by the council itself.

Commissioners from outside will not be sent in.

But it's warning it will intervene if it needs to.

The council insist the disaster was so huge any authority

But it says it wants to learn lessons.

And the warning from both the Government and residents

Theresa May and the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, are coming under

pressure from within the Cabinet to lift the cap on pay increases

Thousands marched in central London yesterday in protest

Ministers including the Environment Secretary Michael Gove

are understood to be calling for an easing of the Government's

And Andrew will be talking to Michael Gove later

Iraqi forces say they have captured so-called Islamic State's main

base in Mosul after days of intense fighting.

The militants have been driven from a hospital compound

where several senior IS leaders were thought to have been hiding,

but fighting is continuing around part of the Old City.

Syrian state television says at least eight people were killed

and a dozen wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up in

The bomber was in one of three cars that had been

Britain is withdrawing from an agreement which allows

foreign countries to fish in its waters.

The Government says leaving the London Fisheries Convention

will allow the UK to take back control of access

The agreement allows Irish, Dutch, French, German and Belgian vessels

to fish within six and 12 nautical miles of the UK's coastline.

Cycling finally, and Geraint Thomas has become the first Welshman

to wear the yellow jersey after victory in the opening stage

He won the 14 kilometre time trial in Dusseldorf in heavy rain,

12 seconds ahead of the defending champion Chris Froome.

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

The Sunday Telegraph, a highly political front page. Number 10

plots a Brexit walk-out. Rather oddly, ministers have been briefing

business that at some point in the summer, possibly September, Theresa

May will walk out of the negotiations. Sounds slightly odd.

An important story here, Justine Greening, Education Secretary, is

asking for an extra ?1 billion for schools. That is the spending story

I was referring to at the beginning of the programme. The Sunday Times

has a disturbing account, an investigation into a rogue SAS unit

that killed civilians is about to be covered up. And the austerity story

is also there. You heard about the fishing story, there is the Sunday

Express. No foreign fishing in our waters. But is that absolutely true?

We will find out later. The Observer has top Tories revolt against Made

over public sector cash. -- Theresa May. And they love island bloodbath.

We will be talking about that later. No, that is a lie. Tory chaos over

tuition fees U-turn, and we will pick up that with Heidi. I am

disappointed we're talking about Love Island. You can, it is not our

normal thing on this programme. So, Justine Greening and funding for

schools. The funding formula was up for consultation and we felt that

the numbers didn't work. Those of us that have been underfunded, my area

included, the funding is not there. It's great seeing Justine coming out

and saying we need more funding. The politics of this, you are South

Cambridgeshire, but across the country there has been a revolt by

younger voters against the Conservatives, and a sense it was on

issues like school funding, and above all tuition fees. Therefore,

the Tories had to change direction? I think the funding for schools,

that is not just young people, families feel that as well. I'm not

sure around tuition fees. I think the biggest thing, the biggest risk

is that we start chasing Jeremy Corbyn's policies. I don't think

that will do us any favours. I'm not sure young voters will find that

credible. But if you are going to get an extra ?1 billion for schools,

as for Northern Ireland, and so on, you have defined the money, which

might mean raising taxes? That is a possibility. I'm also disappointed

that we didn't stand firm on the triple lock, taking the triple lock

away. There wasn't a pensioner I spoke to that didn't agree when it

was explained. Tim, you have a sceptical expression, if I may say

so. Are you concerned the Tories have effectively thrown in the towel

on public spending? If no one will defend the Tory record on spending,

including a Tory MP, I will step forward and do it. That is what they

were elected to do in 2010, to get spending under control. In the next

seven years, they did not have a race to the bottom, the cuts were

fairly slow, targeted, there was welfare reform. They ring fenced

certain departments like foreign aid. The idea that they have closed

it down is nonsense. This shows a collapse of political discipline.

That is troubling. You cannot have a Government with a vacuum at its

centre, with a Prime Minister accepting any demand that comes to

her. Heidi, you are critical about the DUP, and it does seem that was

the beginning. When the Government sold itself for ?1 billion and said,

here is the money, please keep us in power, I think it opens the

floodgates. If you are going to give ?1 billion to the DUP, why wouldn't

the heads of department come forward and say, we would like more for

teachers or doctors? Absolutely right. Naomi, you have chosen the

front page of the Mail on Sunday. I don't agree, I think this is

cumulative, I think it goes back further. The money tree you keep

talking about, I think that this generation of voters that is so

excited about Jeremy Corbyn, here, and in North America that energise

the Bernie Sanders campaign, a lot of that is because they saw the

money tree 2008, the financial crisis, they saw trillions of

dollars, euros and pounds being marshalled to save the elites, the

banks. That is when the spell of austerity started to break, right?

You can't bail out the rich and how people fail to notice that the

schools, there was never money for schools or health care. I think it

has been a slow process that began with her rejection of that bailout,

and a big no around the world, but did not have the courage to put

forward, this is what we should spend the money on and this is what

the world could look like instead. This idea that the Tories can just

kind of suddenly adopt Labour's policies, what I see happening, not

just in this country but also in North America, to some extent in

France, with the support during election, people have been saying

the same thing for many decades in this era of politics. Heidi Allen,

you were very critical of the DUP deal. You said you could barely

contain your anger about it. When I read your speech I thought coming

here is somebody that is on the edge of leaving the Conservative Party.

No, I hope I am on the edge of seeing the Conservative Party come

back, the one that I know can and should be there. We have got to

change our tone and language. I think we have become too inward

looking. We have forgotten the purpose, why we are there. I am

reminded constantly when I talk to my constituents what they are

looking for. They want the Tory party to change as well. This is

pressure from the bottom. You have the story of the NHS staff the

Telegraph? The Observer, sorry. This is around a book written by a junior

doctor about what life is life. -- what life is like. It is around the

pay freeze for nurses in particular. I had surgery yesterday, I had a

doctor coming to see me that described the pressures the likes of

which he has never experienced. We need to look at supporting all of

our public services. At the NHS, particularly at the moment, is

really struggling. Whether it is junior doctor contracts, the pay

freeze, these people are very overworked. The biggest fish in the

pool of political correspondence, at least physically, is Tim Shipman in

the Sunday Times. He has an interview with Michael Gove, who is

coming on the show in a moment. Tell us about what you make of that

interview? We have a whole goldfish bowl of excellent correspondence at

the Telegraph. But they have an excellent interview. This is

important. Michael Gove is back and that is significant because he got

into so much trouble at the referendum. He was told by Theresa

May, go to the backbenches and prove yourself, which he appears to have

done. He has been given arguably the most important post-Brexit job of

all, agriculture. Most important because agriculture is so reliant on

EU subsidies. So many people in agriculture voted for Brexit, but

they could be the ones most economic and hurt Byatt. All the Government

has said is that they will not cut subsidies until 2022, but for a

farmer that is not very long ahead? He does have some serious policies.

We know that we are leaving the convention fisheries. He also says

he might think about a ban on live exports, which is brilliant if you

like animal welfare. Heels of hints there will be a redistribution of

subsidies. Those that simply get them because they have a lot of land

will see them cut back, and there will be focused on good maintenance

of the land. Interesting to see him flushing out some ideas. Naomi

Klein, we will talk about regulation and so forth in the US context. One

of the things that people want is a big trade deal with the US. In that

context, the American farming lobby is very powerful. They have lots of

techniques that we don't allow here, chlorine washed chicken or using

certain hormones in beef. In those talks, how big a save with American

farmers have? You always have to make a distinction between American

companies that will have a huge say, and American farmers that have been

put out of business for a long time because of the extraordinary control

of companies like Monsanto. It relates to the all-out assault on

regulations that the Trump administration is pushing through,

with all attention focused on the President's tweets, the trolling of

television anchors, the Russia investigation and so on. Meanwhile,

there is a methodical attack on regulation. When Britain talks about

a trade deal that would require a degree of harmonisation with the

United States, it is important for people here to understand that the

bar is being lowered very dramatically. And it's in areas

where it is easy to do so, particularly the environmental

Protection Agency. So much of what Obama did was to the executive

order, which is the easiest to do. Because he doesn't need Congress.

People worry it will be imported here in a new trade deal? That there

will be a race to the bottom. In your book, you talk about political

shock being a deliberate strategy? There has been a strategy in place

now on the right for half a century, using profoundly destabilising

moments, where people wake up in a country that feels profoundly

different than the one that they went to sleep then, and

understanding that in those moments, when people are deeply frightened

and disorientated, after the 2008 financial crisis, I would argue

after the Brexit vote, when the ground is shifting... You can use

that to ratchet politics in one direction or another? Sometimes it

is referred to as a moment of extraordinary politics. One of the

things interesting to me, watching British politics from the other side

of the Atlantic, it seems these tactics are not working very well.

There were all these balloons floated after the Brexit wrote about

turning the UK into a giant tax haven. From what I am hearing,

things are going in the other direction.

There is an interesting story about the Tory whips in the papers today

and they are back to their old tricks. We used to have brutal

whipping in the 1970s from the small majorities in the Labour Party,

kneecaps were broken and people were ferreted out of toilets into the

voting lobby... You assume that has stopped now. According to this

story, it is going that way. The PPS are going to be the eyes and ears of

the Tory whips. I find it disappointing because the whole way

the Tory party will be what it needs to be an change, which is what it

desperately needs to do is to start trusting each other and talking to

each other. It is the whispering in corridors and the power games and

egos that got us into this position and it needs to stop. We haven't

talked about the Brexit story in the Sunday Telegraph. This is a very big

story. It turns out we have a Downing Street source which briefed

business to say in the course of the negotiations it is highly likely the

Prime Minister will walk out over the issue of the bill we pay for the

divorced from the EU. If you are going to enter negotiations, it is

unwise in advance, to brief people about what you will do. It is

Babouli unwise that if you briefed on the walk-out will be for domestic

consumption. In other words, it is not really about achieving a reduced

divorce bill, it is about sending a message to British voters, who,

according to the poll had the thought of us paying a huge divorce

Bill, the government is hanging tough. It is something theatrical.

So this is a huge error and it speaks to the sense of this

extraordinary switch in the fortunes of the government that has gone from

being strong and stable, the only party to negotiate a tough, proper

Brexit, to be the party falling apart on the subject. We are almost

out of time. Naomi, we haven't talked about Grenfell, the other

huge story, give us the headline that struck you? I think this story

about being told to bury this fire report... This is the firefighters

they are faring too. E-readers used to be a firefighter, now working for

a private company, don't say about the fire risks. Residents don't

trust the people who are supposed to represent them. Why would they, when

they are hearing about buried reports. It is such a crisis of

democracy than anything else. It is all about trust. Thanks to all of

you, very much indeed. Well as you may have noticed, we've

had weather every day this week. But somehow Louise Lear

in the weather studio manages to maintain a level of interest,

and even more oddly, Beautiful across parts of North

Yorkshire this morning. But a good deal of sunshine pretty much across

England and Wales. The Cloud is sitting and breaking and the thicker

cloud in the extreme north-west keeps driving in showers. Some of

them heavy and thundery and in the sunshine it will feel pleasant with

highs of 19 to 23 degrees. Overnight the weather front will sink South

and East with more cloud and outbreaks of light rain into

northern England and Wales. Eventually it will move the southern

and central parts of England. The real question is, when it starts to

weaken, how much rain will be left on that front. There will be warm

wind on it, but fresher. Will we get a few spots of rain for the opening

day of Wimbledon? Certainly through the middle of the week, so things

are set to warm up and we could see the mid-20s by then. Andrew.

Labour has organised huge marches including yesterday

and Jeremy Corbyn says Theresa May has lost all legitimacy.

But it's harder just now to point to exactly where Labour Mps have

Well the Walthamstow MP Stella Creasy certainly has,

winning a big change from the government which allows

women from Northern Ireland to get free abortions in England.

Were you surprised at how quickly the government folded, you looked a

bit gobsmacked at one moment when the announcements was made in the

House of Commons? I was gobsmacked because I wanted to see the detail.

People recognise this is an injustice. The challenge for all of

us in politics is for us to work out how to act. The Queen's Speech was

an opportunity to say, here are the issues, we're not going to put

inequality on the back burner. Did you have the numbers to force a vote

and beat them? That would be telling. But there was support

across the house. That ethos, I am passionately a socialist, a

Democrat, a feminist, but I am not tribal. There are others who feel

like that also. When there are issues where we feel the government

has got it made, progress has to be made. In Northern Ireland, there is

a different religious -based view on abortion which is not the view of a

lot of people in England and it is wrong for you as an English MP to

impose your values on them. This is what is happening at my local

hospital in London and whether women who are UK tax payers are being

denied the services they are paying for. I am passionate woman's right

to choose is a human right. This was different and people across the

house recognised if vulnerable women were turning up at the local

hospitals in England and Wales, asking for help, they shouldn't be

turned away. Is the next front on this battle to change the law in

Northern Ireland? I think human rights is a massive issue for all

others, equality cannot be on the back burner in this Parliament. We

to work around the world to do this, that includes Northern Ireland. Is

this specific issues, suddenly appear in the House of Commons and

the government realises it hasn't got a majority and has to change

direction? Colleagues are working hard, and the tampon tax, there is a

very strong history and tradition of MPs coming up with issues and

working across the house to get things done. That is what the public

want to see. We voted with the Chuka Umunna Amendment on the EU which

means Britain should stay inside the single market. It is impossible,

given the results of the referendum, people voted to leave the EU and

that means leaving the single market? I don't accept that. There

are countries who aren't part of the European Union who are part of the

single market. It means staying in, paying money into the EU, accepting

EU laws and it means no chance of control over migration. Those of the

things on which people voted? How do we know that? We once, in these

negotiations, all options to be on the table, to have a government that

forces through a hard Brexit, especially in the light of the

general election results with the public rejecting Theresa May's

approach, doesn't make sense. There are MPs saying we want to see all

options. We don't know what is possible to achieve, but if you walk

in the room and throw away something like single market membership,

650,000 jobs in London alone are part of that, it is irresponsible.

You had 100 MPs went to the lobby on this out of 600. Prison's membership

of the single market is over. You have thought that battle and you

have lost haven't you? There is support across the house to say,

what options are on the table. The British public said no to the hard

Brexit. No one wants to rerun the referendum, but why would you read

some of the big things of the table talking to Europe? There is a big

change of tone in the Labour Party since the election. Jeremy Corbyn

has been a long-time opponent of the EU, he made his view of the single

market clear so was he right to sack people who opposed him? He is the

leader of the party and it is up to him. I have been a senior Chief

Whip. There were people across the house who talked about the

importance of single market membership. This is about a

discussion on what the best deal looks like. There is an agreement

that Parliament should have its say. Even after that election result,

Parliament is still trying to deny MPs are proper role in that process.

Jeremy Corbyn has enhanced authority, isn't it time for people

you to fall in line and accept the Labour Party has changed direction,

it is no longer such a broad church, you will have to fall into line

behind Jeremy Corbyn and demonstrate you are loyal to a successful

leader? Because we had a great results in the election, we have an

opportunity, not just to hold the government to account but show the

difference labour can make when it is in office. We hope we have

started to show it can work. I know Jeremy is committed to every MP

playing their part, Abba campaigning from the ground upwards. Didn't feel

quite got an answer there, but Stella Creasy, thank you for joining

us this morning. Now, coming up later this morning,

Andrew Neil will be talking to Trade Minister Greg Hands

about the government's position in the EU talks and to Shadow

Justice Secretary Richard Burgon on Labour's divisions over Brexit

and where the party goes next. That's the Sunday Politics

at 11 here on BBC One. Few childrens' books have

stood the test of time Well, Kenneth Grahame's tale

of Toad, Ratty and Mole has now been Having brought us Downton Abbey,

Julian Fellowes has turned his I caught up with him

at the London Palladium where he recalled how he first fell

for the story as a youngster. I don't know if people have

maiden aunts any more. Many of the books, Mary Poppins,

Children of Green Knowe and Wind in the Willows I have later

dramatised and taken And there's something nice

about that, you know. You have a long relationship

with a work and then It's also, although Kenneth Grahame

was in fact a Scot, it is a hymn to England,

the English landscape and so forth. Is it more about

preservation than progress? I think it is certainly

about making us aware Yes, I don't think that's

a modernist, revisionist view. I think he is celebrating the beauty

of England, and our luck, actually come in having it

to live in. A kind of bucolic, Edwardian

vision of the countryside. I think it's because

it's about friendship. It's not about rivalry,

hatred and all of the stuff that Romantic love in itself takes up

about 90% of fiction. But in most of our lives,

in my life, our friends I mean, wives and

husbands, of course. But, having settled that,

then your friendships are the permanently changing

emotional story of your life. And Grahame really

examines friendship. You know, the impossible friend

who you keep going with, but he drives you mad,

Toad. The wise old man who is rather

difficult, slightly nervous, but if they do give advice,

it's worth having, Badger. I mean, you can put friends

in your address book # Is it any wonder that

the crowds are turning out? # Hoping for a glimpse of me,

but I don't hang about # Pedal to the metal,

that's my motto, that's my creed Isn't he spectacular,

the monarch of the road There's also, inevitably,

a class element to it. Toad lives in the big house,

and then you got all the weasels and the proletariat down in the wild

wood and so forth. And yet, this is a story that you,

as a man of the right, and Alan Bennett, as a man

of the left, are almost Yes, I don't actually think

the class element is a particularly big part of this production,

because we've quite deliberately given accents, provincial accents

to more or less all the characters to give a sense of all

of England being in on it. That is how he's written,

that's how he is coming you can't But Ratty is not particularly posh,

nor Badger, nor Mole or anyone else. I mean, I think the weasels

are the kind of angry - that's how I would describe them -

the angry part of society. Odd to have Proudhon

being quoted in the wild woods I think it fits the moment,

though, don't you? # The kind of furry animals who go

for your throats # You'll find that you come to no

good. # Our societal problems are more

to do with the angry, the haters, than the non-angry

and the non-haters. Because you find all social classes

mixed up in all the different I don't think it's nearly as clearly

divided as it was 40 years ago. Downton Abbey, I think it's one

of the most successful TV They love it in Russia,

they love it in South America, North America, all around the world

people are watching it. What is it about Downton Abbey that

makes it so successful? We never said to the audience,

the family are the real characters and the servants are just

the funny people. Or the other way around,

the family are horrible. If it had been done in the 90s,

the family are horrible and malicious, and all

the servants are suffering. We just said, here is a group

of people, they were all dealt different cards at birth,

they played them well or badly. But, for the most part,

they were decent people trying I believe, and of course

I sound like Pollyanna, but I believe most people are decent

and trying to make Julian Fellowes, on the set

of Wind in the Willows, Labour's big argument this

week was over Europe The Labour leader sacked three

of his frontbenchers for voting that Nigel Farage, no less,

promptly tweeted, "Corbyn I'm joined by Labour's Health

Spokesman, Jonathan Ashworth. Were you pleased when you saw that?

I didn't see that tweet, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I'm

not sure what that means. You say Labour's big argument was about the

single market, the big argument was with the Government this week about

the pay cap and cuts to public services. It would have been, had

you not had 100 Labour MPs, 50, backing, with others, backing a

motion against the views of the leadership. Nigel Farage may have a

point that Jeremy Corbyn has been an opponent of the EU all the way

through his career. He has been completely consistent on this

subject. 1975, voted against it. 1993, Maastricht Treaty, voted

against that as well. Voted against the Lisbon Treaty. All the way

through he has spoken and voted very consistently against the EU. Isn't

the truth that Labour is now an anti-EU party? Not at all. The

Labour Party campaigns to remain in the EU. Just about. We were very

enthusiastic in our campaigning. But we accept the result, the British

people voted to leave. The key thing is what deal do we get?

Consistently, since last year, we said we want a deal that puts jobs

and prosperity first and we want a deal that maintains tariff free

access to the single market, which has the same economic benefits of

the single market. The Tories have been all over the place, with lots

of different, competing priorities for Brexit. Our number one priority

has always been jobs, the economy and the prosperity of British

families. From your point of view, what was wrong with the motion

against the leadership? We have a Labour Party position in the

manifesto that we just stood in an election on. It didn't make it clear

he would stay inside the single market. As Keir Starmer said, in

eloquent terms, when he was on your show two weeks ago, what we want is

a deal that puts jobs and prosperity first. We want tariff free Ascot rig

access to the single market. We should get swept away with the

constitutional arrangements of what that looks like. We are calling on

the government to negotiate a deal that contains jobs and prosperity,

allows us to have free access and the same benefits. Sorry, but you

have a leader and Shadow Chancellor who are staunchly against the whole

idea of the EU. They see it as capitalist conspiracy. The reason I

am asked about this is that so many young voters who came to Labour on

the selection, partly because they were upset by the Brexit referendum

result, have been fooled, in a sense. They thought they were voting

for a pro-European party. Actually, they were voting for a party led

from an anti-EU standpoint. It could be construed as a little patronising

to say that young voters didn't know what they were voting for when they

voted for the Labour Party. The manifesto was very clear. That was a

manifesto that the whole party signed up to, including Jeremy

Corbyn and John McDonnell. I thought the manifesto was a fudge on that

matter, but that is my view. Are you in favour of a second referendum

still? I have mooted that in the past, but I don't think there is a

position that has broad consensus any more. So you drop that? Me

personally? Yes, that was something I speculated about in discussions

such as this. Nearly, there is no appetite for that. Let's turn to the

other issue that you said was essential, public sector pay and

austerity. A lot of people watching this programme, nurses, teachers,

doctors, fire workers, policemen, who Labour say he would remove the

public sector pay cap. What they want to know is how much extra pay

they will get, in percentage terms, than the Labour. We think the

responsible thing to do is to ask the independent pay review bodies to

make recommendations. In the manifesto, we allocated about ?4

billion or public sector pay. We think the independent pay review

bodies should come up with the decisions and Government should

accept them. Can I just say this, the reason why this is so important,

it is not just that hard-working nurses and firefighters deserve a

fair pay rise, which is why we put the motion to the Commons this week,

the Tories voted it down, despite what they are saying in the

newspapers today. It also impacts on some of the workforce issues we

have. In the NHS we haven't got enough nurses because people are

leaving. Reports suggest that they are going to stack shelves because

they will not stay in the service will stop European nurses are not

coming. The NHS is spending billions of pounds on agency work. We believe

that we can get the workforce issues under control in the NHS, we will

also save money on the agency bill. Can I suggest that you can't really

hide behind the pay review body recommendations, because they have

made it crystal clear, as is the case now, that they operate in an

envelope set by politicians, set by the government. George Osborne says

there will be a 1% pay freeze for public sector workers, the pay

review bodies do the detail underneath that. So Labour really

has to tell people what kind of pay rise you are proposing to offer

them. You have just exposed the mealy-mouthed response of the

Government. And yours! They are saying wait for the pay review

bodies, they are the ones insisting on the 1% cap. We are saying to get

rid of that and give a fair pay rise. I think they should consider

giving people a pay rise in line with earnings. Clearly they are not

going to be able to overturn the 14% loss that NHS workers have had over

seven years. But they have to come responsible recommendations. And we

would accept them. If they say that pay in the public sector should rise

as the private sector, in line with earnings, as you put it, that has

been costed by the IFS as requiring an immediate ?6 billion a year now,

rising to ?9.5 billion a year in the course of this Parliament. That is

more than you budgeted in your manifesto. You budgeted 4 billion?

But don't forget, we think we will save money across the public sector

more widely. In 2015-16, three 7p was spent on agency workers. We

think we can bring that right down. -- three 7p.

Labour, and a Jeremy Corbyn, has a new attitude. He has sacked those

frontbenchers, he is pumped up and has more authority than in the past.

Ian Labrie, now a very powerful in the party machine, says he thinks

that Labour has been a Broadchurch in the past, perhaps too broad. I

don't really know what that means. It has always been a Broadchurch. We

have always been a broad church, we have had different opinions. We are

taking on the Conservatives over their cuts. There are big cuts

coming to the NHS, expenditure plans which Jeremy Hunt has refused to

give details on. In the Labour Party, we will be increasing the

pressure on Jeremy Hunt, asking for details of cuts. We have a broad

church and always have had. I think he was saying that the left

have a right to control the Labour Party after a successful campaign,

and if they want to impose a new discipline of responsibility and

authority, led by Jeremy Corbyn, they have the right to do that. I

suspect the point Ian Labrie is making is that Jeremy is now secure

as leader of the Labour Party. Nobody is going to be challenging

him, we will not have the turmoil we have seen in recent years. The

turmoil is now in the Conservative Party. We have lots of different and

is to say they want to get rid of tuition fees, they want more money

for schools, the Conservatives are in a mess. It sounds like you

disagree with Ian Labrie. I've not seen his interview!

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

Quay Coming up, 2 billion people are now on Facebook. Can we no longer

live without social media? And Jimmy McGovern tells us why he wanted Sean

Bean to take the lead role as a priest in Broken. Fare

A year ago this weekend, Michael Gove, fresh from triumph

in the Brexit referendum, launched his own

Sacked by Theresa May, he's now back as her Environment Secretary

and once more a big voice in the Cabinet.

Welcome. Can I ask you, first of all, why DUP voters and people in

Northern Ireland are getting an extra ?1 billion, essentially

because voters across the rest of the UK didn't much like Theresa

May's election campaign? I don't think that is an entirely fair

characterisation. What is unfair about it? The reason why we are

investing in Northern Ireland, it is not just DUP voters, everybody

Northern Irelanders receiving this, because there are unique problems

that flow from the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Everything from

mental health to infrastructure of the province needs additional

investment, and the investment has been welcomed by Labour politicians

and politicians in Northern Ireland outside of the DUP. This was an

extraordinary, blazing discovery, suddenly made after you've lost your

overall majority? No, it is fair to say that in conversation with the

Democratic Unionists and in conversation with our own party, we

wanted to make sure that we have as secure a majority as possible. They

had you over a barrel and said ?1 billion on the nail, now, all we

don't support you. You said, all right then? Not quite. There are two

things which are important to say. We all know the Conservatives don't

have a majority, we didn't get one of the general election and

therefore we wanted to be in a position in order to provide a

secure majority for the Queen's Speech, a chance to ensure we could

govern in the national interest. We had conversations with the DUP. It

is also the case that the money that is being spent in Northern Ireland

is being spent in a way that crosses all of the sectarian divides of the

past. It is money that has been welcomed by people not just within

Northern Ireland, but across the United Kingdom, as a proper

investment in making sure that our kingdom is stronger, that our union

is protected. Where does it come from? As all taxpayer money comes

from comic comes from you and I, hard-working people that

contribute... Not quite my question, are you going to raise taxes, are

you going to borrow more or take money from other budgets? The

Chancellor quite rightly prioritises making sure that only have part of

the country that have suffered over the past... This is not an answer.

You know that. But your question is predicated... The money has to come

from somewhere. All taxpayer money comes from hard-working people

across the country. It is not just that the Northern Irish get ?1

billion, if it is an English wrote a comment is coming from money that

you would have otherwise had spent on you. You lose money and they get

it? You assume that when it comes to public spending that it is a

zero-sum game where you set individual against individual. We

want to make sure the United Kingdom, altogether, is stronger.

Making sure we invest, not just in Northern Ireland, but as part of the

arrangement, we are also ensuring that pensioners are protected, the

triple lock is there. We are making sure that the Winter Fuel Payment is

also in place. As a result of this people across the United Kingdom

benefit. Let me ask you in more detail about that. This is money

that has presumably come from current budgets and is going to go

to Northern Ireland. The problem is, from now on, every single time

somebody asks for money for teachers or nurses, or housing, whatever it

may be, and the government says there is no magic money tree, they

say there is, we have just seen it in Northern Ireland.

That argument will always be there, people say, you have found money for

this, you have found money for that. But people in the UK won't argue

that we need to invest in Northern Ireland. It is, you can't find money

for this, that or the other the public wants, but when it is keeping

you secure in your cabinet seats, bingo, ?1 billion is able to be

found. There is only one way we can have a secure government in this

country and that is having Theresa May as Prime Minister and making

sure we have a secure and stable government over the next five years,

that we talk to parties in the house and the DUP work able to talk to the

Tories on a confidence and supply bases in essence. They want to

ensure the government is strong over the next five years and we have a

public policy that will ensure growth and will bear down on the

deficit. The alternative would have been to allow Jeremy Corbyn to take

over and that would have mean higher taxes and the economy going over a

cliff and less money for everyone. So making sure that making sure that

Theresa May is Prime Minister and Philip is Chancellor of fixture,

ensures we can pursue the policies which are generating growth and

bearing down on the deficit. I think your characterisation of it is,

focusing on one area of public spending at the expense... I am

thinking of it as a bung. It that is unfair to the people of Northern

Ireland and decisions were taking with the interests of everyone in

the United Kingdom. Of course we spend more money on different parts

of the United Kingdom, we spend more money on Scotland and Wales. But

they don't get any more as a result of that? No, but as a result we have

deliberately made sure those parts of the United Kingdom that have

special needs, are supported more generously. And nobody can say the

legacy of the troubles is nothing more than a melancholy one, we want

to make sure Northern Ireland can emerge from that process stronger.

Bung, the implement ... It implies this money is going to the DUP on

their own as though it was a partisan deal? It is about

strengthening the whole of the United Kingdom. Let's reflect more

on the oddness of all of this. You have just lauded the fact that the

triple lock is now going to be saved. The triple lock was

threatened because it was in your manifesto to threaten it, so you

have been rolled over. When you are saying yes, you are being rolled

over! It is very odd. It is absolutely right we should, after a

general election we didn't secure a majority but we should have the

opportunity to review how we help the most vulnerable in our society.

Can we determine there will not be another big amount of money, I won't

call it a bung, but a large amount of money paid to the DUP, the first

permanent secretary said, they will be back for more. Chris Patten said

the same thing. The money doesn't go to the DUP. It goes to their voters

who don't support them. It goes to Sinn Fein voters, SDLP voters, it

goes to the people of Northern Ireland. There is a tendency, which

some fall prey to, which I know you don't, Andrew, suggest the people of

Northern Ireland don't deserve this money and the DUP somehow... People

across Shropshire, Perthshire and everywhere else will be saying, yes

I do deserve it, but I can't get it because I don't hold the Tory party

to ransom. You characterise it as money for the DUP, it is money for

the people of Northern Ireland. We want to help people who were

experiencing additional strains, people who are vulnerable and people

who need the support of the state most. We wanted to ensure the United

Kingdom is stronger as a result of the next five years in government

and this will help cement the ties between all the people of these

islands, Protestant and Catholic, Northern Irish, Welsh, Scottish and

English. Let's turn to the people who need help of the state, is it

time to remove the PEI cap on public sector pay? We need to listen to the

pay review bodies. That isn't good enough. George Osborne told the last

parliament there would be a public sector pay freeze of 1%. Under that

they then do the detail. If the public sector pay cap is going to be

removed, it has to be the government but does that. I was Education

Secretary and I note the education pay is not a poodle. They take

account of other questions as well, including the number of people

entering the profession and if we need an increase in pay to make sure

we get the best people in the profession. These pay review bodies

have been set up to ensure we have authoritative advice on what is

required to ensure the public services, on which we rely are

effectively staffed and people in them are effectively supported. Jon

Ashworth made it clear it's a Labour Party quality to listen to what the

pay review bodies do. The same fudge as you. Public sector pay policy has

been set out by the UK Government until 2019 until 2020 and provides a

context for recommendations in England. As Michael Gove, as an

individual man sitting there, would you like to see the public pay cap

removed? We should respect the integrity of that process. I am not

in individual, I am part of a collective team. And if you is, we

should respect the integrity of the process. One of the things about

government, you don't exercise your views on the basis of a whim, you

have written a brilliant article in the Sunday Times today, where you

have two suppress your own views. Flattery will not get you anywhere.

Sometimes I have two suppress mine because I work as part of a

collective team. Justine Greening, your successor as Education

Secretary is asking for ?1 billion for student funding, that the per

capita figure goes up, is she right? She is right to review how we spend

money in education, but having been Education Secretary, I wouldn't want

to sucking guessed her as an incumbent. She wants to review how

the money is spent, I won't presume to give her instructions on that

matter. Do you think the election result means we cannot go through a

period where we can't have per capita cuts this student funding?

What we had overall, we have had the overall schools budget protected.

But as the population has grown, that meant they might per capita is

under strain. Justine Greening is reviewing that and I don't want to

sucking guessed the decisions she should make on that with the support

of the Chancellor. Damian Green has said it is time to have a national

debate about tuition fees. Lots of younger voters went out and voted

Labour because they don't like the idea of tuition fees and they think

the system can be changed. Damian Green suggested your party has to

engage in a serious conversation about that, do you agree? Yes, but

it is important to look at those remarks and what he said. He was

pointing out the current system is ensuring it is properly funded and

it is fair. If you get rid of it, you have to find the money from

somewhere else? Damian was saying, what I believe, is if we have two

fund higher education, if people who get university degrees to go on to

earn well, they should pay something back and that is what the current

system does. It is wrong, if people don't go to university, they have to

pay more in taxation to support those who do. I believe, the purpose

of government policy is to support everyone equally and if you don't

benefit from a university education, you shouldn't have to pay

additionally to support those who do. Our taxes in this government are

having to go up slightly as Oliver letter man and Chris Patten have

suggested? I don't see any need for them to do. I think the Chancellor

of the Exchequer will know how to move the levers in order to make

sure the economy works better when it comes to the budget. You are

chastising me for not sticking to your brief, so I will return to

this. Is this headline true? Yes it is. The headline says, no foreign

fishing in our waters, will it be banned? Fishing in the immediate

area around our borders, six to 12 miles, we will be saying we are

taking back control and we will... No French, Spanish boats? We will be

in control and we will have the terms of access. When we leave the

EU, we can then extend control of our waters up to 200 miles, or the

line between Britain and France or Britain and Ireland. We then decide.

We can then negotiate with other countries... It might not be true,

there might be French and Spanish boats in our waters. No, no foreign

boats in this six to 12 zone. But we can decide on which basis we can let

people in. Isn't there a border problem with the Irish, extending

our fishing border too close to the Irish? It is an arrangement between

Britain and Ireland. I don't think it will be the last time this

agreement is discussed on the Andrew Marr programme. Can I move onto

farming? Know, one critical thing about the Common fisheries policy,

it has been an environmental disaster. We want to ensure we can

have sustainable fish stocks for the future. When we leave the European

Union, we are taking back control, not just of our waters... I need

control of this interview because we are running out of time. It is

important we recognise... We need to help the environment. That is what I

wanted to ask you about. You have said we need a free-trade deal with

America and the Americans are keen on that. But what the American

farming Association is clear about, for it to work we will have to had

to accept some of American standards, chlorine washed chicken,

all sorts of GM products without them being labelled and as part of a

free-trade deal, we will have to accept them. Are you clear our

environmental and food standards will not be loosened in any way as a

result of leaving the EU and doing free-trade deals with other

countries as well as America? Yes. It is always a good idea to have the

answer is much shorter than the questions. Up until the end of this

Parliament, farmers have been guaranteed subsidies will not come

down, after that it is a moot point. We have suggested wealthy farmers

who get huge amounts of money from the EU like Sir James Dyson and

others, will get less money under the regime? Yes. Is no deal better

than a bad deal? Yes. Would no deal be a bad outcome for Britain? It

would be not an ideal situation. We want to concentrate on getting a

very good deal. It will allow us to have free trade with the European

Union, but with other countries as well. No tariff barriers. That means

British food, which has a world reputation for quality, will be able

to board by more people and as we grow and produce more, we can ensure

our countryside and rural economy is more productive. On top of that, we

can also, as he would gracious enough to acknowledge earlier, to

ensure we not only maintain environmental standards, we in

Hanson. We can take steps on live animal exports to make sure it is

higher than ever before so we can have a green Brexit to ensure

Gritton is an environmental leader. Were you surprised to be brought

back? Yes. Michael Gove, thank you very much.

'..to learn about the food I cook for my family...'

Tell me, what is so good about these potatoes?

'From the heights of the Scottish Highlands

'to the shores of East Anglia, I've travelled across Britain...'

'..to learn about the food I cook for my family...'

Tell me, what is so good about these potatoes?