25/06/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Well, it's really been a tale of two audiences in the last few days -

ecstatic for Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury, and stoney-faced

That first audience, not in power, pumped up.

unfortunately for us, in power and friendly?

A year after the Brexit vote, nothing is more important

The man at the heart of them, David Davis, joins us this morning.

Meanwhile, Labour is determined to rip up austerity.

And for taxpayers, how much might that cost?

Debbie Abrahams, the party's Work and Pensions Secretary,

And from hemlock to Sherlock.

Andrew Scott on his stunning Hamlet and the mystery of Moriarty.

Here's somebody on his own. They desperately lonely character.

Sherlock Holmes has a friend, Watson, but Moriarty doesn't.

And after an extraordinary week,

reviewing the news today, Fraser Nelson, whose Spectator

magazine has been reflecting on the retreat of the right,

the Corbyn enthusiast, writer and commentator

And to reflect on the quieter pleasures

of the British summer, the legendary and now retiring

All of that coming up, but first the news, read to us

34 high rise buildings in England have failed fire safety

The Government ordered urgent tests on around 600 buildings

All samples examined so far have failed to meet safety standards.

In North London, residents spent a second night in temporary

accommodation after Camden Council evacuated four high rise blocks

The council says it could take up to four weeks to make

A cyber attack on the parliamentary computer system appears to have

been contained according to government sources.

Officials at the Houses of Parliament said there had been

a "determined" attempt by hackers to identify weak passwords for email

accounts used by MPs, peers and their staff.

Users of the Westminster system were blocked

from logging in remotely while the breach was tackled.

A teenage boy has been arrested on suspicion of the attempted rape

The boy, believed to be 14 or 15, was detained

after officers were told the girl had been attacked in a park

in Moston, in Manchester, yesterday evening.

Yemen is now facing the worst cholera outbreak

in the world according to the World Health Organisation

than 200,000 suspected cases, and 1,300 deaths.

The outbreak has spread because of the collapse

of the health system during the civil war.

Finally, two giant pandas have arrived in Germany to start a

A seven-year-old male, Jiao Qing, and four-year-old female Meng Meng,

were flown in yesterday as a gift from China.

The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.

Lots of really interesting stories. The Sunday Times has led with the

cyber attack story and a picture of Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury. They

also have an interesting story saying, alleging, that Tory MPs are

lining up behind the Chancellor, Phil Hammond, as a possible

caretaker to take over from Theresa May. But then apparently to step

down again, so somebody can take over again. It's becoming

ridiculous, really. But there we go! The Sunday Telegraph has the

cyber-attack story again. They suggest the Conservatives want to

skip the toxic generation and install a younger face as their next

leader. Good luck with that, it worked for the Labour Party... Wait,

it didn't, it went the other way. Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury in the

front page of the Observer. An interesting story, they say fire

safety rules in England's schools were going to be relaxed, and now

they are not. A major U-turn is going on inside Government, they

say, about the whole health and safety culture after the terrible

Grenfell Tower. An interesting story about the unions wanting a soft

Brexit. We will talk about that. The Mail on Sunday has an interesting

story about Prince Harry, talking openly about his wilder years and

being a reluctant Prince. Well worth the read. Let's start with politics,

Fraser Nelson. You have the front page of the Sunday Times. They are

on manoeuvres again? When are they ever not? It is interesting, it is

common agreement that Theresa May is doomed, it is when, rather than

whether she will go. What happens in the meantime? There is a theory that

Phil Hammond will stay on, promising to resign and under the leadership

contest in another couple of years. Just what the party needs(!) Nothing

is so crazy that it couldn't happen in the Conservative Party right now.

They have started Brexit negotiations. If they said, by the

way, we don't know who will be the Prime Minister, we have to pause

things, we would be laughed out of court. We are being laughed at right

now. The question is if we would be laughed at less if we had somebody

who was not just being ignored by her Cabinet. Would somebody else

have a better grip as an interim point? This is the question. I don't

think this is a very plausible answer. You have Boris Johnson

jogging along? The Mail on Sunday says the contest is between Boris

and David Davis. That is true, if it was held tomorrow, it would be one

of these two in contention. What is the biggest problem facing the Tory

party? Is it staving off Jeremy Corbyn? Then you need a populist

like Boris. Or is it getting Brexit right? In which case you need a

bruiser like David Davis. Who understands the details? Ellie Mae,

looking from the left, does it matter to the Labour Party what the

Conservatives do in terms of their leader? Some leaders would be easier

to beat than others. I'm not sure, I find this belief in the media that

Boris Johnson is this really popular figure kind of odd. I think he is

divisive and I don't think a lot of people like him. I think David Davis

might fare better. That would definitely lose the Cameron Tory

vote. If it was somebody so tied into Brexit. Problems on either

side? Yes, the Tory party is basically in a lot of trouble. The

leader is completely Cox five and has no authority in the party. But

there is no obvious successor. They are in a lot of trouble. I think it

was a huge mistake to trigger Article 50 and then call a general

election. That means now we have to go into Brexit negotiations, whether

we like it or not. That really complicated things. Theresa May,

watching programmes like this, being told she is toxic, finished and the

rest of it, I think I feel slightly sorry for her. She must then, hang

on, I am still here, this still looks like Number 10, and she has a

plan, Henry, and the Sun has reheated an old joke? Theresa May

saying, I need a Willie, I thought she had won anyway. Margaret

Thatcher apparently said this and could not work out why everybody was

laughing? Wonderful, isn't it? Humour, you would have thought

somebody like Margaret Thatcher would have the nous to see that. And

the essence is that William Hague will be brought back to bolster

Number 10? And try to prevent cock-ups. Could he do that? I think

he is now an elder statesman, he is younger than I am but he has been

bowled for quite a long time, which helps. The other side of politics,

an interesting story about the trade unions, the TUC saying that we want

to stay inside the single markets. That is not Labour policy? I find it

curious they have gone with the headline, the content of the story,

it is just a couple of comments from Frances O'Grady. Most of the story

is about senior figures in the Labour Party, two named, Hilary Benn

and Chuka Umunna, wanting to push for a different kind of Brexit,

where we stay in the single market. They are talking to other Labour MPs

about this and also having sneaky conversations with Remainer Tory

MPs. I think... I mean, what Labour is calling for his access to the

single market rather than membership. Membership, effectively,

means we haven't left the EU. You have to accept EU rules, you can't

have control of immigration and all of that. Jeremy Corbyn has said

again and again, no, we are leaving? I think what the Labour position is

is that Brexit is happening, it doesn't matter who likes it or not.

The decision has been made and we need to go ahead with it. So, the

purpose of having access to the single market, the conditions of our

relationship with the EU would be decided between the EU and Britain,

as opposed to accepting the rules of the single market wholesale. I think

that is the idea behind it. Corbynistas actually behind it? That

is about three years old, Corbynistas, so I think we should

stop using it. I think they are being rebuffed, and the unions, by

Jeremy Corbyn, who says we should go through with it. We are all very

interested on what the Labour position is, in a way that we were

before. The Archbishop of Canterbury weighing in? A voice I think we

should hear more from in politics. Since he took over, he hasn't really

intervened that much. Now he has come back to suggest there is a

forum in Parliament, intended to draw the poison from Brexit.

Basically, a peace and reconciliation committee, if you

like, that will hear the concerns of the Remainers and try to come up

with a consensus. He makes the point that the country is still evenly

split on Brexit. It might be the case that 85% voted for a Brexit

party, but when asked if we should leave the EU, there is not an

overwhelming majority in favour. He is thinking, can there be a middle

way? You might almost argue he wants a softer Brexit committee in the

House of Commons. Soft Brexit Committee, and Archbishop of

Canterbury Party marching ahead! You have been looking at the Adam

Boulton: in the Sunday Times, Ellie Mae? He has been in Brussels and he

has been talking about what is possible. He is more optimistic than

we might have expected? What he is generally saying is that Britain is

standing in the EU, it's standing has declined because of the chaos in

the country. The volatile political situation is in stark contrast to

quite a stable EU at the moment. He is also talking about the prospect

of no deal. One of the reasons I was interested in this column is because

I think one of the most irresponsible lines that has come

out of the Conservatives over the last year has been no deal is better

than a bad deal. No deal is not better than a bad deal, it is

catastrophic. It means... Very, very bad, as Philip Hammond said? Yes, we

would have to adopt World Trade Organisation rules, which means very

high trade tariffs. The BBC said between 30% and 40%. One thing the

Tory party needs to do is to say, if we have no deal, what does the day

after negotiations finished, what does it look like? I don't think

they have explained that to the public. I think it's irresponsible

to put this about without being clear to the public about what the

country will look like in the event of no deal. Henry, let's move away

from politics for a moment. An interesting interview with Prince

Harry in the mail on Sunday. He's already talked about how nobody in

the Royal family wants to be king or queen. That they do it out of duty.

He said he has had some wild times in the past. He says he is a prince

that thought about stepping away from the entire Royal thing

altogether? It interesting. The Queen's great motto is never

complain, never explain. We suddenly have the Royals, through Harry,

letting his hair down in this unprecedented way. This sort of

thing has never been said before. We always accepted that the next one in

line is going to succeed and get on with it. He said, first of all,

nobody wants to be king or queen. In a way, one can understand that. It

must be the most murderously difficult job to do. How

fantastically well the present Queen has done it. Is it rather too much?

Should he have gone quite so far? Once somebody is known for speaking

out and gets a lot of coverage for being frank and open, eloquent, the

media always once more. Squeeze that lemon one more time. Eventually you

end up saying something you wish you hadn't? Harry is very willing to be

squeezed in that way. I think we may get quite a lot more from him. I

just wonder if he is getting wagging fingers from behind, Buckingham

Palace or elsewhere. Let's turn to your organ, the Spectator. You have

an unusual and striking front page, the dying of the right. Talk us

through what you are worried about? We had a whole issue asking why the

Conservatives are giving up on conservatism, not just in Britain,

but abroad. During the election campaign we hardly had any positive

reason for voting Tory, it was Brexit this, Brexit back. Even now,

the Conservatives are saying if it should be Boris or David, without

asking why? What are we for as a party? They are split on austerity,

split on Brexit. Most Tory MPs support Remain right now. It is not

clear they have a clear idea what they are for. The Labour Party is

gathering purpose and direction. So, having a crisis of intellectual

confidence in the Conservatives right now. Without it, they will

drain momentum and sit and wait for a general election with Jeremy

Corbyn taking over. They need to work out what purpose they serve.

And the drift of events has been against them as well because there

was a rethinking of health and safety, and whether the

Conservatives can rethink that whole anti-health and safety culture. You

have been looking at the coverage of the Grenfell Tower this week. Yes,

this is extraordinary from the Observer today, ministers in panic,

you turn in fire safety for schools. There was going to be some

cost-cutting measures around health and safety in schools. In 2012,

David Cameron said he was going to take on the monster of health and

safety and I think you know another thing I have observed about Grenfell

is that the residents tried to take legal action but they couldn't do it

because of the cuts to legal aid. Everywhere you look there is a cut

to public spending and it's led to the deaths of dozens of innocent

people and I'm glad there is a rowing back of this anti-health and

safety discourse because health and safety rules are there for a reason.

I'm just sorry it took such an appalling incident for it to happen.

Lots of coverage of Jeremy Corbyn at Glastonbury on the front page as

well. Some very divisive stuff saying he should have been

supporting the Armed Forces on Armed Forces Day, not hanging around with

hippies in a field in Somerset. What do you make of the coverage overall?

Overall I think it has been fairly positive actually. Everybody in the

media is kind of taken aback by how his fortunes have changed.

Him and Theresa May seem to have swapped places in terms of how they

are viewed by the public and that's a remarkable turnaround. In terms of

whether he should have been at Armed Forces Day, at the end of the day

his policies to properly fund the NHS would be a lot more beneficial

to veterans than attending one day in a year so I don't really have

much time for that. I think there's a crowd of 200,000 people at

Glastonbury who are enthusiastic, engaged and interested in politics,

why shouldn't you go and talk to them? You are here because you have

been a voice of the English summer and we have been listening to you

for very long time I would like to talk a little bit more about that,

Henry, but first a few of your highlights.

Look, I've just seen a crane at Lords actually

I've seen cranes all around this ground for years

That big white one, there, is moving.

A moving crane, a yellow helicopter, what more has the day got to offer?

Bell dived forward like a porpoise after a fish

That pigeon, he's coming absolutely on cue.

Flying over proceedings, beating his wings quickly.

I think because he's an English pigeon!

Bowled him! Bowled him!

Very good, we could not talk about Test match special without producing

the cake theme, and we have brought for you, Henry, a cake. Isn't that

kind. Brian Johnston was the cake man, chocolate cake, then we moved

over to fruitcake and in 2001 the Queen gave us the most imperial

fruitcake, it was wonderful. I'm not sure what's inside that one but we

are not going to try on air to find out. That's the only reason I came

on! The icing is wonderful. They don't give you cakes at Sky! One of

the big problems of your job is the long period of time you are on air

for, and you have to fill that. It struck me have an English

surrealism. The continentals have made great, we have you. If you take

the fast bowler and he bowls and over, the batsman doesn't play a

stroke, you have a lot of time to fill in. I love describing things, I

love painting the entire picture. You look closely at the cricket, the

action you are talking about, but if it is not for the grass under their

feet, the trees, the people in the stands and the sky, it's not the

complete picture. You have got the Mount and the frame... You are word

painter. You have got to let listeners know where you are

sitting, then they can see it through your eyes and pay you the

ultimate compliment which is you made me feel I was there. As I said,

the voice of the summer. Thank you to all of my guest.

Many people are saying that with a hung parliament

and Jeremy Corbyn, we are back to the politics of the 1970s

and right on cue because the weather Gods have been

paying attention this week we had the hottest June day since 1976.

Too hot to work and, sorry Henry, even too hot for cake.

It's cooled down a bit since then over to Stav Danaos.

It has cooled down and it is set to stay cool next week with substantial

rain in the forecast. This week hasn't been too bad, today a little

bit cooler than yesterday. England and Wales seeing the majority of the

cloud and outbreaks of rain, we will see sunnier skies pushing southward

through the course of the day. Temperature wise, the mid-teens, we

could make 22 across the south-east. The weather front bringing the cloud

and rain across England and Wales eventually slips away into the near

continent. Those cooler conditions move away, and a chilly night to

come tonight than what we have been used to in the past week. Into

Monday, a bit of a cool start. High pressure dominates the scene. This

area of high pressure will slowly encroached from the west through the

day but we start on a fine note. Plenty of sunshine around, outbreaks

of rain pushing into Northern Ireland. The extent of its little

bit uncertain so you have to stay tuned into the weather. We could see

highs of 24, 20 5 degrees. As we head on into the rest of the week,

heavy rain, breezy at times and no sign of the heatwave returning.

At least we will be able to speak. -- sleep.

One of the great mysteries of the Labour election manifesto

was quite how far they wanted to go - and presumably want to go -

Debbie Abrahams is the Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary

We know what your position is overall because of the hashtag end

austerity now, but I want to examine what that means. This week we had a

High Court ruling that it was unlawful and discriminatory to have

a welfare cap on single parents, single families with children under

the age of two. The Conservatives will appeal against that ruling.

Labour's position is presumably you get rid of that cup. We would make

sure we were holding the ruling from the court decision on Thursday. Can

I just mentioned, that for people who don't know was a judgment that

said that it was completely discriminatory, it was having a

detrimental effect on the wellbeing of children. We have 4 million

children living in poverty and this is just adding to it. Our position

is that it needs to change. Can I ask you about the overall household

cap. At the moment there is a limit you can get per household, ?20,000

outside London, ?23,000 inside London. Would you remove that cup?

We recognise for people listening to this it might seem like an awful lot

of money but the reality is the implications for people on the

poorest circumstances, the implications around child poverty

which affects children not just while they are young but for the

rest of their lives, it affects how their brains develop and everything,

and... So the answer is yes, that cup would go? We would be looking to

see how to do that. How much will that cost? We haven't costed it yet

but the court ruling is about 15 million so it's not an astronomical

figure and we need to make sure... When we are talking about austerity,

it is not right that formally and children, three quarters of whom are

living in working families, they are subject to poverty. A lot of people

watching are expecting you to end it now, not at some point in the

future. And we are looking at the range of measures we have, so in

terms of raising the national living wage, very important component about

making sure we have regulated private sector rent system, making

sure housing is affordable. Those things were in the manifesto. The

things we have talked about today were not in the manifesto. Can I ask

about something else that wasn't in the manifesto which is your attitude

to freezing benefit overall. At the moment there is meant to be a freeze

on benefits until 2020, would Labour end that? We would reverse the cut

around ESA work-related activity for disabled people, personal

independence payments which the Government very wrongly in my view

introduced new regulations and penalise people with chronic mental

health conditions and we thought this was absolutely wrong. But the

overall freeze you won't end? We didn't cost but in the manifesto.

What we did say, because there's a whole range of measures and the

freeze is one aspect of the reform and work act so for example around

the cuts to work allowances which makes the Universal Credit programme

not fit for purpose. It's not going to make work pay. We have a

situation where people are not receiving any money for six weeks,

possibly longer. So it's not really end austerity now, it is end

austerity in due course when we can afford it. Look at the whole range

of things we have said we will do. It's about ?2 billion we have set

bike for transforming Universal Credit. I mentioned just one thing

around the long hello, the 62 days before people get a payment. This

also issues around getting two payments in one month but not in

another. It goes on and on so there's a whole range of ways plus

what I mentioned about the living wages as well.

Jeremy Corbyn said after the election result you have a mandate

to end austerity and he's also said you want to get rid of this

Conservative government as soon as possible. I'm just wondering how you

propose to do that. Will you be putting down motions in House of

Commons attacking Conservative austerity plans? As we have done on

a number of measures over the last... Numbers are very different

now. Absolutely true to the court ruling on Thursday, we put

amendments to change and the Government ignored that so this is

the third ruling they are seeking to overturn. Where court judgments have

said this is not right, this is having a detrimental effect. It's

about choices, it's about is it right with 7.5 million people who

are working are living in poverty, disabled people, pensioners, and at

the same time we have the excesses we see. Jeremy Corbyn has said he

wants to seek 16 and 17-year-olds being paid the full living wage, ?10

per hour, do you agree with that? Yes. Don't you think it would cause

job losses? If you are doing the same job, why should you not be paid

the same rate? It is discriminatory. If you are new business, that is a

very big cost. The Federation of Small Businesses says it would

instantly mean them all going bankrupt, it would mean job losses

and it would be bad for the economy. What we are looking to do, the

measures in our business manifesto would mean they were compensated. We

understand we grow as a result of the efforts of small businesses. For

example around the campaign I have had for five years around late

payments, ?26 billion still owed to small businesses, which will have

more of an impact on them and we would outlaw this. One last issue if

I make. There has been a big row this week about the position of

European citizens living inside the UK. The EU governments said they

don't like Theresa May's bold and generous offer that they can stay.

What is the difference Labour is offering people and what the

Conservatives are offering? Of course we haven't seen the detail.

It is a little bit frustrating, should I say, that we have heard

little bits that have been leaked through the announcement, and yet we

haven't had the detail. That will be tomorrow. What we are concerned this

is watering down of existing rights. Why has it taken more than a year?

This should have happened straightaway over a year ago now. We

need to make sure EU citizens have the same rights they do now. Thank

you for talking to us. Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme. Coming up, doctors are debating

whether to update the abortion law, should the time limit be extended?

I will be talking to the first disabled actor to play Richard III.

And should rejoin the space race to Mars to save the earth? Join us at

ten o'clock. Big new productions of Hamlet come

along each year but few pack the power of director Robert Icke's

current London hit. It's got real Nordic noir,

and at its dark heart, of course, there's Andrew Scott's mesmerising

Prince. He's known to Sherlock fans

for his creepy and funny Moriarty, but now he brings a level of realism

to Hamlet rarely seen before. 'Tis an unweeded garden

That grows to seed. Things rank and gross

in nature possess it merely. But two months dead -

nay, not so much, not two. So excellent a king, that was to

this Hyperion to a satyr. You seem to be able to do it

without declaiming it stagily, if I can put it that way so you can

hear every word, you can hear every syllable,

it makes complete sense but it's not Yes, well that's

absolutely what he tells. It's extraordinary what he

says it in the play. He says don't put on a funny voice,

don't declaim it, just speak His advice to the players

is to speak it trippily on the tongue, pronounced

as I pronounced it to you, so we want it to be very

conversational and humorous, but still adhering to

the amazing language. He doesn't talk about the verse

in the same way that... Sometimes I think Shakespeare

has been kidnapped by To post with such dexterity

to incestuous sheets! It is not nor it cannot come

to good, but break, my heart,

for I must hold my tongue. So Andrew, what about the absolute

central mystery of the play, why Because in this performance,

Claudius actually... It is absolutely clear what has

happened and yet he can't quite act. What do you think is at

the heart of that mystery? The idea of murder can come a little

too easy in Shakespeare plays. It's a very difficult decision

to make, to murder somebody, and I think once you have murdered

someone, it has an incredible He is worried that once he commits

that terrible atrocity, And in this play of course,

you have the most impossible soliloquy in the English

language to deliver. How do you possibly do "to be or not

to be" in a way that isn't In rehearsal we had a sort

of famous play buzzer. And to really start thinking,

approach the play like a new play and to think about the lines not

as famous lines - and my God, there's a lot of famous

lines in the play - and what he's saying in the play

at that point in the play is, should I make the decision to stay

alive or should I commit suicide, and

that's what that speech is about. What's really important in this

production is speaking Not speaking to a sort

of dark vacuum, you know. Are you aware that quite a lot

of people coming in are coming Yes, I certainly think that's part

of the audience and I'm always I really don't believe in high art

versus low art, and I hate, absolutely abhor the idea that

Shakespeare is for middle-class And so, yes, I do think

there is a younger audience. And since we have Moriarty in

the room, what's the real Moriarty? What's the key to

Moriarty in your view? I think he's a character

who is very playful. You know, it's interesting,

if there is a link between the two Sherlock Holmes has a friend,

he has Watson, but Moriarty doesn't, and that's what the sort of the idea

with Hamlet has been. Because there's a lot

of questions about And putting an antic disposition on,

as they call it in the play. I think we are at a very embryonic

stage of our knowledge about mental health and so I think you can't

ignore this new interest we have And of course we have two princes

now openly talking about it, just This is about a young man

who's grieving his father and he's told stop, stop,

we don't have time for that. And that's a big thing

for young men, you know. And suicide is, as we know,

a very, very high Oh, that this too, too

sullied flesh would melt, Or that the Everlasting

had not fixed How weary, stale,

flat, and unprofitable seem to me all the uses

of this world! And that production of Hamlet,

directed by Robert Icke, is at the Harold Pinter Theatre

in London until 2nd September. Coming up later this morning,

Andrew Neil will be talking to the international

Trade Minister Lord Price, and to Labour's Shadow Cabinet

Office Minister Jon Trickett. That's the Sunday Politics

at 11am here on BBC One. There's been a lot of speculation

and comment about the Brexit talks. Some people have forecast

national humiliation. Others, like my next guest,

have promised straightforward talks, followed by a crisp

and positive deal. But now the actual arm-wrestling

has begun, David Davis, the Brexit Secretary,

is the man on our side of the table. Right at the beginning of this

process, the referendum, you told people this would be

straightforward. Almost a breeze, these negotiations. Is there a

danger that people watching now are going to feel they were misled? I

never said it was a breeze, if you read the articles, as well as the

speeches, I said there would be turbulence and difficulties, but at

the end of the operation there is a point of common interest for both

sides where we gain by being able to exploit global markets, where they

gain by having a friendly and comfortable ally, not an irritating

member of the club. You invited me to read your speeches, which I am

now going to do. Go on, then! The economic case for Brexit, during the

campaign, you said the first calling point of the UK's negotiator in the

time immediately after Brexit, that is you, will not be Brussels, it

will be Berlin, to strike the deal. Absolute access for German cars and

industrial goods in exchange for a sensible view on everything else.

Have you called Angela Merkel? You'll be glad to know I've been to

Berlin. I haven't spoken to Angela Merkel, I spoke to her premier

advisor. If you want to talk about Germany, we're not going to get the

response from Germany until the election is over. We will get

preparatory work before then. I'm happy to let October come before I

start that. View argued that the German car industry, industry

generally, would put pressure on the German Chancellor, who would put

pressure on the EU to make sure we get a good deal. Is that still your

view? That is where it will end up. Not just the German car industry,

Bavarian farmers, Italian white goods manufacturers, you name it.

The balance of trade is 230 billion from us to them, 290 billion from

them to us. They have a strong interest in getting a deal on both

sides. You remain reasonably optimistic. However, we had the

election campaign, we had lots of changes in the atmosphere. You are

now surrounded by a bunch of people around you, including people saying

we are now dependent on the kindness of strangers, and the Chancellor of

the Exchequer. Are you irritated by the noises? This is unsurprising.

There are lots of different interests around the UK, all of

whom, quite properly, are fighting their own corner. The bank is very

concerned about the city and the financial sector. And the economy?

The economy, generally. It's an interesting speech, more than what

you just described. They will make their cases. At the end of the day,

the key in any negotiation, and it is not about macho clashing of

antlers, it is about finding the place that suits both sides. That is

what we are about. You can see it even this week, in terms of putting

the citizens rights issues. Are you absolutely sure we will get a deal?

Pretty sure, I am 100% sure. It is a negotiation. You said at the

beginning, we are guaranteed of getting a deal, you will be sure

there is a deal. You can be sure there will be a deal. The deal I

want, free trade agreement, customs deal, I'm pretty sure, but not

certain. Do you think we will lose anything to get access to the single

market? You said it would be very easy, not easy, but very

straightforward negotiation. Not easy, that is the point. There will

be things that get in the way. Let me take an example from this week.

We have just put up a proposal for... To give you my criticisms in

the UK a set of rights and British citizens on the continent a set of

equivalent rights, OK? What we have set up to do is to create a state is

almost equivalent to the same as British citizens. The same residence

rights, the same employment rights, the same health rights, welfare

rights, pension rights. So on. The only thing they don't get is the

right to vote. They can get that as it comes, and we asking it the same

the other way. The argument now is more about if the European Court of

Justice has a say. That is where the fight, the argument comes in. One of

the places, the reason it didn't go down terribly well on the confident

as they felt -- on the continent as they felt they got a headline, not

the details. Can you tell us anything about the cut-off date? If

people are watching on the continent, which they can do, these

days, they might think they are due to start a business in Wolverhampton

next March, will I be relevant? With respect, that's not right. That is

what the headlines may have said. If you look at what the Austrian

minister was saying, the Polish minister, perhaps the most important

in this context, Lithuanian... The cut-off date is? We have said it

will not be any earlier than the trigger of Article 50. I think that

is fair. You could have said June 23 when the referendum decision was

taken. There were a lot of people who didn't think we would carry

through, so we take Article 50 day as the minimum and the maximum the

last day. We will discuss what we think is the fairest and best way.

We said explicitly, this is something we want to talk over with

you. Not that we don't have a view, that we want to talk it over with

you. There are other areas where there are differences. But the main

thrust of this is that it actually gives an undertaking to all 3

million people in this country today that they will have rights that are

effectively British citizenship rights, or the same rights. The

reason we cast it that way is that we were getting a lot of stories,

particularly from Central Europe, people saying they were going to be

made second-class citizens. No, that was the point. People are still

wondering if it will apply to them, given how long they have been there,

they will want to know if they can bring relatives here and so forth.

Well, all of that will be published, a 15 page paper is being published

tomorrow in front of Parliament. On Tuesday, I am going to be writing

articles and pretty much every city of the union. Can you say any more

about it now? In terms of what we are talking about, a whole range of

things, people we keep under our control and things we don't. We're

talking continued indexation of pensions to people in the EU. There

was concern about that. We thought that was important to do. We can do

that unilaterally. Access to health? We are looking to see if we can get

a continuation of the EX scheme. If we can't get one, we will provide

one unilaterally. We are trying to ensure every European citizen gets

their current position, as it were, locked in place, so that they can

be... So the anxiety can go. That is the real issue. It is not about the

prospect of deporting people, it is about the anxiety that they can't

stay. Will anybody be deported? I don't think so, unless they have

committed a crime or some sort of security problem. I don't expect

that. We will go back to the normal relationship. Depends on the EU

giving our people the same results. So if there isn't a deal that... I

don't want to go down hypothetical routes, because that gives away too

much. But this is the option that we think can be resolved moderately

quickly. You mentioned the court issue. Michel Barnier has said he

thinks the European Court of Justice must have jurisdiction over this.

Theresa May has said equally clearly no way. There is a possible third

way, that we take some of their judges and some of our judges in the

Supreme Court and put them onto some kind of new court which has

jurisdiction over both sides? There are two parts of this issue. One is

giving people here confidence that the system will stay, that we won't

just flip it over in another five or ten years. We will have British

courts imposing the law from the British act of Parliament,

underpinned by an international treaty. They say that is not enough.

Well, there are two arguments, it depends who you talk to. When you

look to the council, it gets terribly technical, so I will make

it as simple as possible. The council handed down its negotiating

guidelines on the European Commission interpreted it. The

council guidelines didn't mention the court. So there is a bit of

ideology as well. When we are doing these deals on trade, other areas,

there will be arbitration arrangements. There will not be the

ECJ, there will be mutually agreed chairman and some from both sides,

that is the normal way. There might be other ways. It may be that we

have an arbitration arrangements. Michel Barnier a is someone you

tangled with way back... Tangled is not the word, dealt with. What is he

like? Is very French, very logical... What does very French

mean? Grand? Yes, he's very elegant and... And not in a mood to

compromise, he says. Let's see. He wants a deal as much as we do, I

think. When he was the commissioner in charge of finance, at first we

thought he was terribly stiff and on moving, he eventually struck a

perfectly reasonable deal and I think we will see the same here. It

will be small movements incrementally and they will be so

small they will be invisible sometimes but they matter. And he

won round one, you said there wouldn't be negotiations around

citizens' writes, the Irish border, everything had to be done in

parallel, and they won and you folded. Six months ago the

Commissioner's position was we will do the divorce arrangements for a

couple of years, after that we will go to a transitional arrangement...

Now he's looking to amend parallel arrangements. I want to get the

citizens think through now, that's more important than having a row

now, and Northern Ireland on the table. We won't conclude Northern

Ireland this summer... You said yourself that we couldn't finally

conclude it until we knew the customs arrangements and so on.

Exactly. It is technically difficult but perfectly doable. We want to

have effectively an invisible border between the north and south. There

are technical ways of doing that, number plate recognition on

vehicles, tagging of containers, trusted trade schemes. Quite a lot

of technical stuff. We have to start on it now so that when we get to the

end we will be in a position to implement it. So no row of the

summer as we have been promised. Not yet. Let's turn to the transitional

arrangements. Philip Hammond was sitting in chair last week and he

suggested they had to be quite long, that business was worried about a

cliff edge. The for years and years of transitional arrangements were

needed, that -- is that your view as well? Yes. We have discussed this

weekly since Christmas. The position up front was to get the European

side to understand it was in the interest as well. Quite a lot of the

non-negotiation going on before now has been about that, the impact for

financial stability in Europe if we went suddenly from one regime to

another. ... Get scared about this. Of course, we understand that and we

have discussed this with them. We think it will be not that long. He

said to you in your interview last week it had to be over by the

election. Three or four years. No, he said by the election. It will

vary. And during that period it will still come under the jurisdiction of

the ECJ. We have said let's start talking about how it will work. This

is a practical and pragmatic thing. What will work best, what will

deliver the outcome that suits both sides. We are looking for an outcome

that helps both sides. Holland, the Netherlands, huge amount of trade

through Rotterdam. They are very nervous as is Belgium that they

would get the shock effect if we don't stage things. Would know deal

be better than a bad deal? As he said last week... He said that this

started with suggestions that there will be a punishment deal, that we

would have to do worse outside. We don't believe we will do worse. I

believe we will do significantly better with the global markets but

we cannot have a circumstance where the other side so they will punish

you so if that happens there has to be a walk away plan. He said it

would be very, very bad. Half of my job is the invisible half, planning

for all outcomes, good and bad, the range. It will take time, this is

not the sort of thing you make up over the course of a weekend, it is

something you have to work out in great detail. The Chancellor himself

said it would be very, very bad to have no deal. It would be better

than a punishment deal. So it is two terrible outcomes. In my job I don't

think out loud, I don't make guesses. The data is being gathered,

we have nearly 60 sectoral analyses already done, we have planning work

going on over customs and 22 other issues which are critical. They have

all got to be grounded before we can come to the conclusion of what it

looks like. You said you have been talking to Philip Hammond weekly and

you are clearly close to him and the rest of it, are you pleased to see

him staying on as Chancellor? Of course. One of the things as a

backdrop to what I do is the stability of financial markets, of

the country and the economy. The more stable that is, the easier and

I have. I could come on cleverly to the leadership speculation and you

could block it and we could have a pointless conversation so let me ask

something slightly different. Would it be catastrophic for our Brexit

negotiations for the Tory party now to have a leadership contest? Yes.

That may be plain about this. Number one, I happen to think we have a

very good Prime Minister. I have seen her in action, I have seen a

number of prime ministers in operation over the years going right

back to Margaret Thatcher and I think she's good, she's bold, she

takes her time. It's very clear that she is a good Prime Minister. Point

number two is I want a stable backdrop to this Brexit negotiation.

It is hard work by the way. So what's your message to the Tories

muttering about leadership challenges and who will take on

whom. Don't be so self-indulgent is my message. Get on with the day job,

which is people put's here to deliver amongst other things a

decent economy, a decent life for them, Brexit and all those things.

The more self-indulgence you go for, the more difficult you make it to do

the proper job. The self indulgence is coming from David Davis

supporters too. You were at a meeting where one of the people said

you should be our next Prime Minister and there was either a

great swell of applause or scattering of applause, depending on

what you read. And I said my job is to make exit work and nothing else.

So you are not going to stand until Brexit is done? Frankly the fact we

have spent two minutes on it is self-indulgent, two minutes too

long. Was it true you advised Theresa May to call the election?

Yes. I take my share of the blame with it, along with the other 20

members of the Cabinet who also said it was a good idea. Did you regret

it? Did you apologise? I didn't apologise to her. I didn't design

the campaign. I thought we would get a better results than we did. What

did you think of the campaign? It didn't work, did it? Every campaign

you get critics along the way, every campaign has a wobbly Wednesday. If

it succeeds it succeeds, but it didn't. You said during the campaign

that if we come back with a big majority, that strengthens my hand

in the Brexit negotiations, so presumably you have a weaker hand.

It gives me a different hand. It's very interesting, during the

campaign itself, Brussels said if there's a big majority she make more

concessions, so I said actually it is a very small, blank majority so

it will be a very narrow window to aim for. You can deal with every

hand you are given. But do you look at numbers in House of Commons now

and think you are much more vulnerable on your negotiating

position? For example what happens if you bring the Great Repeal Bill

onto the floor of the House of Commons and lose those votes? We

probably do. You asked Keir Starmer last week what is it you disagree

with in the Great Repeal Bill and he couldn't give an answer. He does

reserve the right to oppose it. Of course, Labour opposed the

Maastricht agreement. I think the public will draw a conclusion on

this little wave of euphoria we see around Jeremy Corbyn may evaporate.

The Great Repeal Bill takes European law and puts it into British law so

there is no black hole when we come out the other end and that is very

important. If somebody disrupts that they are taking on themselves the

responsibility for making the British statute book and the British

law unworkable when we leave the European Union. What about posterity

because that's been a big issue. You are a working-class boy originally,

you understand why people are fed up with years of cuts. Again you could

face revolves on the floor of Commons. To be fair to the

Chancellor, he eased its likely in his first Budget. It's going to be

eased more, is it? You should have asked him that. He said more or less

yes. We had a deficit which has come down, every pound of that is taxed,

we have got to get it down. But we have the bill for leaving the EU as

well to be paid. Tens of billions seems a fair assessment. Lets see

where we get to on that, the negotiation father hasn't started

and we won't know the answer on that for a year two. I wouldn't get too

bogged down. Simple truth is we have got to deliver a strong country,

jobs, which we are delivering, incomes... One final question, has

this interview being patriotic enough for you? I prefer forensic to

patriotic. Thank you, David Davis. That's all we've got time for,

thanks to all my guests. Now, next week, I don't actually

know who's going to be here. But what I do know is

that there will be politics. The critically-acclaimed

series is back.