18/06/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Most of Britain is baking, and in the capital,

In the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower fire,

and just ahead of the formal beginning of Brexit talks.

This morning's papers are, frankly, menacing for the Prime Minister.

The sense of political crisis which followed the election result

Trying to steady her ship, the Prime Minsiter has issued

an apology after the fire - "the response was not good enough".

This morning the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, is here to talk

about that and what he wants from the Brexit negotiations.

But the kind of deal we do with the EU may now depend as well

Labour's Brexit spokesman, Keir Starmer, is with me too.

Also, here are two people fighting for justice for the victims

Pilgrim Tucker, a community activist, and Randa El-Daouk,

a friend of Mohammad al-Haj Ali - the Syrian refugee who was the first

Reviewing the news this morning - Faiza Shaheen, director

of the left-wing think tank Class, the commentator and LBC

presenter Iain Dale, and the BBC's own Victoria

Derbyshire, who reported all week from Grenfell Tower.

All that after the news, read for us this morning by Roger Johnson.

Church services will be held today to remember the victims

of the Grenfell Tower fire in West London.

Police have revealed that 58 people are missing

and are believed to have died - but that that figure

Yesterday, Theresa May met with volunteers

Government staff have now been drafted in to improve

the response to the disaster, as Nick Quraishi reports.

The devastation caused by the inferno stops

The dark reality abundantly clear in broad daylight.

Four days on, the community is still angry about a lack of co-ordination,

It's always the public that runs to the rescue.

Residents, community leaders and volunteers

took their frustrations to Downing Street, spending two

It was a robust discussion, there was forceful emotion

in the room, people were able to say what they wanted to say

and we felt that was listened to and listened to carefully.

Theresa May, who has come in for widespread personal criticism

over her handling of the crisis, said she'd heard the concerns.

drafted in to help Kensington and Chelsea Council cope

with the response and the Red Cross will provide psychological support.

As people wait and pray for the missing, church services

today will remember those who didn't make it out of Grenfell Tower.

A reminder of the complex and lengthy process of recovering

Meanwhile, the Home Office says it's making arrangements for the family

of Mohammed Al-hajali - the first named victim of the fire -

to travel from Syria to the UK for his funeral.

The 23-year-old, a civil engineering student,

became separated from his older brother, Omar, who escaped

More than 78,000 people had signed a petition

calling for their parents to be granted visas.

And, Andrew will be talking to a close friend

A new report has highlighted the UK's growing wealth inequality,

estimating that one per cent of the population owns 14 per cent

of its total assets, worth about 11 trillion pounds.

The government has responded to the findings

by the Resolution Foundation by insisting that income inequality

is at its lowest level since the mid-1980s.

At least 39 have died and 60 other people have been injured in a forest

fire in central Portugal. A number of the victims died in their

vehicles as they tried to escape but became trapped by flames. Portugal

has been experiencing a heatwave with temperatures exceeding 40

Celsius in several regions. The next news on BBC One

is at One o'clock. I said there were menacing for the

Prime Minister, this is what I'm talking about. The challenge of a

stalking horse leadership if she goes back on drugs and in any way,

says the Sunday Telegraph. And there's the Sunday Times, apparently

the Tories have told Theresa May veggie has ten days to put things

together. The Observer has a story about Tower Block fire warnings that

it says ministers ignored, the Mail on Sunday have gone with what

Theresa May said, although it is not quite what she said, she did not say

that specifically, many of the other papers covering similar material.

Victoria Derbyshire, you were there all the way through the post-fire

crisis. And every single paper, virtually, has a big long read

through, the question is, after all we have seen is it worth sitting

down on Sunday and reading the story again? I think so, because it takes

you from the beginning to where we are now. And there are new stories,

new eyewitness accounts, it begins in the Sunday Times with this

damning headline, an inferno that shames us all and it mentions

someone receiving a phone call from their sister in the burning block.

This is one of the many relatives of Grenfell Tower residents, woken in

the small hours of the morning by a telephone call from her sister

Nadia. You receive a phone call in the early hours of the morning from

your sister saying I am trapped on the 22nd floor on a burning tower

block. It is unimaginable. His sister says, Nadia loved the views

but like everyone she was worried that it wasn't safe. They knew that

it wasn't safe, the residents knew well ahead of time that it was a

dangerous building and raised this again and again with Kensington and

Chelsea Borough Council. They did and what people don't seem to

understand is that the organisation, but Randy Tarbuck, it had a majority

of members who were residents. If these concerns were raised so often

why did the management organisation not take them seriously? Part of the

answered without I believe is that the residents were there as

advisers. Not as voters to sprinkler systems. And they were reliant on

the experts and the council... The residents said, we were regarded as

troublemakers. We all saw these blogs written last year or the year

before detailing the concerns. Everyone has the of how this

happened but the cladding does seem to be an important factor. Why is it

that if this cladding was banned in America and Germany and other

countries why was it allowed to be used here. Ministers are getting

flack for this and in some ways we will come onto that, some of them

probably deserved to but on this one, ministers have to be reliant on

experts to advise them. Buy with the experts not saying, this is not

material we should use on buildings in this country. Some of the experts

were talking about that, Faiza. It's on the front page of the Observer.

Ronnie Green, head of the parliamentary group on fire safety,

talking about government ministers not only not having meetings with

him but also ignoring requests to think about sprinkler systems in

tower blocks and also schools. The sense from him that this change only

happens when people die. This is the thing that we keep hearing, this was

avoidable. I think that was the big thing. When you speak to victims or

go to that area people are so angry because it's just feels like these

many lives lost... Need not have been lost. And the Mirror has a

similar story. This is what is going to happen now. We've got to look at,

not only fire regulation and why the residents weren't listened to,

sometimes they are treated as second-class citizens. They say

these people do not think that our lives are important. Also what role

did the cuts have, how much money did the council have, why did they

cut those corners. The Mirror talks about the number of fire safety

audits, which has been cut quite dramatically. The amount of money

available for Fire Service budgets has also been reduced dramatically,

so how is this all said in to this horrible tragedy -- how has this

heading? People are blaming austerity. Hopefully this will come

out in the inquiry but the council were spending ?10 million

refurbishing this block. Refurbishing how? In the end it

needs to be the experts who are held to account. If it turns out that

someone said to the council, you are making a major mistake doing this...

The residents said that. If the experts put it through, and this

cladding is allowed in this country, it obviously shouldn't be but it is,

you cannot lay this all at the door of national politicians, can you?

Not all at the De but you have to think at every level what mistakes

were made and they made those decisions because maybe... Think we

have to say, Kensington Council have not responded to this well. There

were not enough people on the ground. The phone lines were either

engaged or not operated. The Sunday Times has said they suggested that

the government has asked the senior officers of Kensington to step down.

The leader of Kensington Council has a lot of questions to answer, how is

he still in his job especially after what the Prime Minister said

yesterday about how they had failed the local people I think he should

consider his position. We've asked Kensington and Chelsea Borough

Council to come on. They haven't answered. Do you think we are quite

close to the council being in effect suspended by the government? I think

we are close to that. I don't know the equivalent of special measures,

for schools. But they've failed their local people, it is abundantly

clear. Nobody can talk to them. They choose the injuries they will do,

they will choose news organisations that the locals don't even watch.

It's very easy to get into the blame thing, but this is also a human

story. Victoria, you've got the story of a very talented artist who

was killed in the fire. Just on the edge of becoming incredibly famous.

Just on the edge of success. This is in the Observer, this is also a

picture of Khadija Say was from Gambia originally. Her friend

writes, we grew up in small flats with strong others and we joke about

how as children we were shy about inviting friends, because our homes

had foreign objects which are friends would stare out. The final

paragraph is moving, my most poignant memory of Khadija is a

recent one, we were in a pub when a lady nearby stopped to speak to us

and said, I wasn't really listening but I wanted to say what a lovely

way you'll speaking to each other, what a lovely French and you have.

Khadija's broad smile and her laugh as she said thank you, that will

always stay with me. Khadija was a photographer. She had been selected

for a competition in Venice, you can see her photographs if you go to her

website and they are remarkable, black and white or Seppi photographs

of Gambian women. Really interesting. That's a story about

two Londoners, there they are in the flats... We never hear these stories

about how much talent is in these tower blocks. We assume and watch

every programme, whether drama or a documentary, we hear about these

places being filled with alcoholics and criminals and what have you.

That is the sense. But actually having grown up near these places

they'll full of talented people, young people with hope. It's so very

painful. And that story of those two... This is a comment piece, an

account of growing up in that neighbourhood, and how it has become

gentrified overtime, rich people moving in, and then the poor. And

there's basically nothing in between. We've seen that in a few

neighbourhoods including, say, Islington, where some remain in

social housing and the very rich... It has been a very divided part of

London for a long time, not far from the place where they have the

Rachman scandals in the 1960s, racketeering landlord is right next

to palatial buildings. Not much has changed, it's the most divided part

of London. I think people forget there are people on low incomes

living there. I think the Labour vote reminded people that it isn't

just the rich who live in that neighbourhood. In this blog there

were owner occupied flats, it was a mixed block. It was not the

stereotypical tower block some might have imagined.

You had all sorts of people living alongside each other, almost a good

example of multicultural London. Let's move on to mainstream politics

if we may. Even on this morning we do. Tim Shipman, the political

editor of the Sunday Times, has really gone for Theresa May this

morning. All of the papers have. Tory sharks are circling... And he

is detailing the prankster on the Conservative backbenches. The Sunday

Telegraph has a story saying there could be a stalking horse candidates

which shows a lack of understanding of the leadership election. Is this

fair? Is what fair? On the Prime Minister that she is responsible for

everything going wrong? On the day she announced the election she was

considered a political colossus and her reputation has descended to

somebody who is without power. However Tory MPs should be careful

what they wish for because if they do oust her, what happens then? They

have to have a new leader, who was it going to be? To take on Jeremy

Corbyn? If they oust her, they increased the likelihood of another

general election which they will lose and Jeremy Corbyn will be Prime

Minister. Absolutely, and even before that they have to get through

a leadership election, which would push back Brexit, disastrous.

Theresa May went from hero to zero in a week. Now she is fighting for

her political life again. I think her reaction to this disaster has

been understandable in their wake. She had advice she had to leave the

church whenever it was on Friday. She has actually spent hours with

community leaders and the victims. We heard last night on the news when

she invited people to Downing Street, it wasn't Downing Street

spin as saying she had broken down in tears, it was a local vicar who

had broken down in tears, it was a local vicar who have been meeting

and saw her holding the hand of the woman next to her. She could have

seen the residence on Thursday. But if you are advised not to... You can

overrule them, you are right, and in retrospect it proved to be a

mistake. And what are they saying about the Prime Minister on the

streets around the tower? I heard them saying things like "What is she

doing here?" We didn't know she hadn't let residents at that point.

It was only afterwards, when they realised residents have not been met

she spoke to firefighters who described her as a coward. Very

briefly, from your perspective what is the political significance of

this moment? Do you think it is a turning point in the country? She

has proven herself not to be able to lead. At every point her hand has

been forced, meeting victims, putting money together, even with

the council standing down it is all after-the-fact, after people are

protesting. In a way she is down -- damned if she does and if she

doesn't. Thank you. Above all, the Grenfell Tower

community wants answers. What happens

now to those who have friends, children, homes,

and all their possessions? Why were the repeated,

desperate warnings about the safety Earlier I spoke Pilgrim Tucker,

a community activist who worked with the Grenfell residents action

group and was one of And to Randa El-Daouk,

a friend of Mohammad al-Haj Ali - I began by asking Randa

how she knew him. I knew him from the Syrian community

and... Who was loved by all of us. He was loved by people who knew him

very well, by people who didn't know him very well, just by the community

and it is sad to see what his family must be going through now. Obviously

they have questions about how this happened. He didn't manage to escape

the building but his body was not found. How did that happen? And he

was communicating with his brother and family by mobile phone in his

last moments. Yes, and I just cannot imagine how his brothers and the

family are going to be able to continue with the struggles that

they face. Most of his family are still in Syria and they will want to

come over for the inquest presumably and the burial and so forth. Have

they had assurances they can do that? Yes, the Home Office has

agreed to reunite the family, and so far as that is helpful and maybe it

is the support that others need at the moment, but I think the main

concerns of the family are why were the helicopters there, filming

residents burning to death but not helicopters there to save the

residents who were trapped in the flats? This question will haunt them

for the rest of their lives. They assume it is very dangerous for a

helicopter to go so close to something so hot, maybe the answer,

but there will be of questions from the family. Yes, surely there are

ways. Obviously the helicopter could have been spraying water into the

building or they could have had platforms and nets for people to

jump into. And the rest of the questions. Public inquest might

answer some of them, but the ultimate question is if it will ever

be resolved. Randa, you have been in touch, however you coping? Not very

well. Of course it helps the family will come, but they need closure and

the question is if they will ever get that. Thank you. Pilgrim Tucker,

you were involved in a lot of the campaigning issues going back quite

a long time ago. There was a blog which was very explicit about this

kind of thing happening, tell us about the campaign. I campaigned

just after the consultation when the works had finished and the residents

realised what they have been told about the refurbishment was actually

nothing like the reality of what was happening. To be clear, the tower

block have been refurbished but no sprinklers, no fire safety systems

have been put in. No, there was work done on the boilers at what a lot of

people are now saying, there was this cladding on the building and

people are saying it was for cosmetic purposes. There were these

very basic safety things that needed doing like the lives and stairwells.

So what you're saying is inside the building, relatively poor families

were living in unsafe conditions but to make the building looked pretty

they put cladding on the outside. That is what people in the area

think and they are saying. We now know it was substandard and wasn't

good quality, and they cut costs on the flooding and used cheaper

cladding, which was apparently the more flammable ones. That will be

looked into I expect, but the quality of the work going on when I

was working with them was so poor. They were really angry about it,

really upset about it. At that stage, did people living in the

building fear that a disastrous fire might take place? They all raised

fire safety concerns in those first meetings. There was a catalogue,

going back years, a catalogue of problems with the building and a

consistent failure. Theresa May has said she has got things wrong in the

short term and has produced a new package of measures to help those

affected by the disaster. What more do you think the Prime Minister

should now be doing? What needs to happen immediately is those families

who have survived the fire and are now homeless need to be given really

good accommodation, cost not being an object, as close to possible as

where they were living before. To stay in the community. To stay in

the community near family and friends. That is possible, there are

lots of empty houses in the area, and I think someone has talked about

requisitioning them. Private rental... We know it is possible. It

is indicative of how these people felt they were treated, and how they

strongly feel now is they are the lower income, they are not poor,

just ordinary working people, not very very wealthy. They are not a

priority, not important. The Government and local authorities

have treated them like rubbish basically, and they continue to do

it. Thank you both very much for talking to us. Pilgrim Tucker there.

And so the weather. It's hot.

If you want any more detail, Helen Willetts

It is hot, the warmest day of the year so far and likely to be beaten

again, the 30 we had yesterday, today. With it, the risk of high

levels of pollen for those who suffer, and the sunshine is about as

strong as it gets, particularly for England and Wales. It isn't sunny

and hot for everyone, we have this weather front meandering across

Scotland and at times it is bringing patchy rain as it did yesterday, but

again with shelter from the south westerly breezes, Northern Ireland,

and in south-east Northern Ireland a lot of sunshine. In the south-east

and east Anglia there could be a late afternoon thunderstorm which

will rumble on into the evening and fade away. The night-time sees the

weather front slowly slipping southwards and the humidity is

spreading north so an uncomfortable night more widely for sleeping

across England and Wales. More cloud generally across the country, but

the heat is with us again, and again it could trigger thunderstorms.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

Singer Charis Matthews gives her personal view on the London Fire. I

will be talking to Jim Leadbetter about her sister, the MP Jo Cox. And

we will be meeting the single man who adopted four children. See you

at ten o'clock. So many Labour figures

see this disaster as Jeremy Corbyn has connected it

to Tory austerity and one of his lieutenants tweeted

"Burn Neo Liberalism not Sir Keir Starmer,

Labour's Brexit spokesman Do you believe this ghastly event

was caused by cuts and austerity? Can my first and my thoughts to the

victims and their families of this tragedy. We have all been touched by

these stories. We have to tread carefully, it is clear there are

serious questions that need to be answered about the cladding, about

the costing, there has been questions about housing in London

for a long time with lots of issues raise that haven't been answered so

serious questions that require serious answers and accountability.

Has your party been dreading carefully? Because Labour were quick

to save the Tories have blood on their hands and that kind of stuff.

Boris Johnson has accused the Labour Party of playing politics with this.

There is understandable anger and frustration, you have seen that from

those living in the tower block and people in other situations. In

Camden in my constituency there is great anxiety about people living in

similar tower blocks and it is the responsibility of all of us...

People want reassurance. I spent Friday with Camden Council looking

at the blocks there. All councils have a duty to say to their own

constituents what will happen by way of enhanced fire checks in the

coming days and weeks. You heard one of the activists from the community

seen nearby properties which are vacant should possibly be

requisitioned to ensure people who have been made homeless by this fire

can stay close to where they were in the community, do you agree with

that? That is one option and the level of support is food but also

housing. A number of people in London are looking at what

properties they have and how they can help and that needs to come

together quickly this week. The Labour Party bear some

responsibility too, there was a ghastly fire in south London and one

before that in Southampton and in 2000 there was a report at the House

of Commons which said that the cladding issue needed to be looked

at again and added, "We do not believe it should take a serious

fire in which many people are killed before reasonable steps are taken

towards minimising the risks". We had another ten years of Labour

government after that. Everyone needs to look at why these

recommendations over the years have not been implemented. I have to look

at the 2009 file as to whether there should be prosecutions. It is clear

there were recommendations that should have been acted on, we all

need to ask questions. So all parties are to blame? All parties

need to ask why recommendations have not been implemented. The Prime

Minister has promised a public inquiry, and she chooses the chair

of that and it reports to her. Other people are saying no, inquests are

much more important because the families get the chance to speak out

and get their own lawyers there as well and we could have criminal

proceedings if necessary. At the moment there is a criminal

investigation, the prosecutors are already advising the police said the

criminal investigation must come first, normally an inquest only

takes place at the end of the investigation. The idea of an

inquiry, because that in some soccer says this can happen more quickly

and I think speed is of the essence here, it's more important.

Manslaughter charges? Yes, we will be looking at manslaughter charges,

there are wider regulatory offences but manslaughter is the most serious

and that will be looked at first. A public inquiry allows things to

happen more quickly, allows a broad range of questions and an inquest

usually comes at the end of the inquiry. Let's turn to Brexit. How

do you think the general election result has changed the negotiating

position Britain should take? The Prime Minister has good us into a

complete mess. She has no mandate and no authority broad. And

negotiations start tomorrow. Things need to change. Her approach so far

has alienate and our allies in Europe and weakened our position in

the EU and got us into the worst possible starting position. What

people say is that Labour's position on Brexit is identical to Theresa

May's position so let me ask about that, do you accept that we are

leaving the EU come what May? Yes, we've been clear about that from the

start. Are you against a second referendum. One cannot take place

until we've left the EU so it's not viable. Third question. Are there

any circumstances in which you think Britain should stay in the single

market? Our manifest is clear, we want to retain the benefits of the

single market and the customs union. Full membership is only available to

EU member states. That's why there's all this discussion... That sounds

like No, we can stay in the single market. Not in an unreformed way

because you have to be a full EU member. You're not giving me a clear

answer. Could the single market be changed in a way that allows us to

stay? I think the mistake we are making is to build a model before

the outcome. What we want is tariff free access to the single market. No

customs duties that make it harder for people to trade. That is what

matters. The flip side of that from the EU point of view is how do we

make sure it's a level playing field, how do we make sure

regulations apply across the board. It's the outcome, and getting into

the model loses the focus on the outcome. I understand that. I must

go. The Labour position is as clear as mud on the single market! John

McDonnell and Jeremy Corbyn have both said, we are out of the single

market, that's it. You can only be a full member of the single market if

you are a member of the EU. It is obvious we will be something else.

But do we leave options on the table? I have said repeatedly, yes,

leave options. There are a number of different models... Focus on the

outcomes, and asking specifically. You can either take single market

membership and say, what needs to change to get us into the position

we need to be in or you can start and work up. What matters is the

outcomes because we need a deal that works for this country. Would you

sacrifice control over freedom of movement to stay in the single

market or have good access to it? It is clear freedom of movement will

end when we leave the EU. The discussion we will have is what

model fits with changes to free movement plus changes that we need.

So you could have some freedom of movement remaining. I don't

understand this. In the end immigration comes down to... You

sound as if in a gentle way you are saying what Theresa May would say.

No, she's taken the wrong approach. The tone is wrong. I say we can't

have membership because that was decided last year, we could have

partnership if we change the tone and approach. Let me try one more

thing. The customs union. In or out. I think it should be left on the

table. So we could stay inside the customs union. That's the single

biggest difference between you and the Conservatives. There is also

this notion of no deal being a viable deal which Theresa May and

the government have repeatedly said. No deal is what happens if you get

to the end of two years and haven't been able to reach agreement, you

get pushed over the cliff. To say I will jump is not a negotiating

stance that makes much sense. It seems a lifetime ago but last week

ask Jeremy Corbyn about the Great Repeal Bill and he said that

history. Will you vote against it? The problem the Great Repeal Bill is

her to entrench rights and freedoms that we can't enjoy it... -- how to

entrench them without qualification, without limitation... It takes all

those workers's rights that the EU have legislated for and puts them

into British law so I can't see why Labour would be against it.

Invincible we are not against it. In practice how do we prevent

qualification or limitation of that. Second, how do we make sure, as time

goes by that our standards don't slip below those... OK. One final

yes or no, will you oppose the Great Repeal Bill of Commons. We haven't

seen it yet. The principle of entrenching rights and freedoms is

when we would support. Thank you very much.

Nick Robinson will be talking to the minister with one

of the toughest jobs in a hung parliament,

and to Labour's campaign chief Andrew Gwynne.

That's the Sunday Politics at 11 on BBC 1.

As we've been hearing, lots of challenges for the Government.

With Brexit talks starting tomorrow, I'm joined now

by the Chancellor Phillip Hammond, but before we get to that let's talk

about the Government's responsibility in the wake

There was a coroner 's inquest and four years ago the coroner said that

regulations relating to fire safety needed to be looked at, is that

being said. , Begin by offering my condolences to those who have lost

family and loved ones in this terrible tragedy and extending my

sympathy to all those affected. This is the first time I've been on the

media since the fire so I want to put that on record. We have looked,

obviously, those recommendations and what has happened to them. What do

you conclude. My assessment is that we have responded correctly and

appropriately to those recommendations. But Andrew... Can

I ask you, how have you revised them. No good asking a government

minister to mark our own homework. The point of an inquiry is that a

judge will look at those recommendations. He will look at how

the government has responded, how landlords and local authorities have

responded and it will be for the public inquiry to decide

definitively whether that has been correctly done or not. But you are

accountable to everyone watching what the government has done. The

government has had four years to look again at fire regulations which

you were told, by a coroner, after ghastly fire in which people died in

London, you have to revise them. I put it to you that you have not

revised them, a major error by this government. There is a process

underway and various steps have been taken, research has been

commissioned which was reported back on, as I understand that there was a

consultation published earlier this year, on revision to regulations.

There has been consultations, there's been revision, humming and

this and that, you've had four years to do something you were told needed

to be done and you haven't done it. You'd have done that in five minutes

of it had been Buckingham Palace. With these tower blocks you sat on

it for four years. I don't think that is true and it's not fair. The

point is that these are complexity and legal issues. And in this case,

technical expert research was commissioned so that the decisions

could be properly informed. Did it take to long? Did we handle it in

the correct way? The inquiry will determine that. That is the point of

a judge led public inquiry with full power to call anyone to give

evidence, to call for all papers. That will put all of this stuff

under the microscope and show how different parties responded. And all

of that should be looked at, of course. Let's turn to another

relevant question which is the one of sprinklers in the building. Again

you were told to advise local authorities to put in sprinklers.

They are not in many of these buildings or in many of our schools

either. And you need an urgent campaign, whatever the cost to put

sprinklers into tower blocks, schools and other public buildings.

If the conclusion of a proper technical evaluation is that this is

the best way to deal with the problem, then of course. But my

understanding, Andrew, again I am not an expert but my understanding

is that the best expert advice is that retrofitting sprinklers may not

always be the best technical way of ensuring fire safety in the

building. If it is, it should be done. Let's get the technical advise

properly evaluated by a public inquiry and Ben Betts decide how to

go forward. -- and then let's decide how to go forward. If there is

something that needs to be done to make a building safe it will be

done. I'm not an expert either but we don't need technical expertise to

show us at sprinklers help to put out fires and a lot of people in

blocks like that one will be watching, thinking, there are no

sprinklers outside my staircase, why not. We don't need technical

expertise, the fire authorities have pointed out that no one has lost

their life in this country and a block where sprinklers have been

fitted. These are technical questions. Let's leave it... I have

been in these meetings. Of course we have asked all these questions. What

I am hearing from the leading fire safety experts is that it is not

necessarily necessary to fit, to retrofit sprinklers to make a

building fire safe. I don't want to call that judgment, I'm not an

expert but we do need to look at all the evidence of this, all the

technical evidence, through the public inquiry. The commitment that

the government should make and I will make it now is that when the

inquiry produces its findings and I don't mean in one ear's time because

we will ask them for interim findings, when the inquiry produces

tidings we will act on them. The cladding which went up like a rocket

is banned in most European countries and band in the United States, if

the inquiry says it must be torn from every single building and we

have to refinish those buildings will the government pay for that as

well? My understanding is that the cladding, this flammable cladding

brand in Europe and the US is also banned here. Why did it go up? Two

questions. Our our regulations correct, do they permit the right

materials and ban the wrong kind? The second one, where they correctly

with? Obviously that will be subdued the inquiry look out, also a subject

that the separate criminal investigation will look at. Was

David Cameron right to say it was important to kill off the health and

safety culture in this country? He wasn't talking about fire safety.

Fire safety in buildings is crucial. Nobody would compromise anything

around fire safety in buildings. There was a debate in the House of

Commons on sprinklers and fire safety not long ago and won of your

ministers at the time, Brandon Lewis, again and again boasted about

getting rid of regulations. Get rid of one, get rid of two, the entire

conversation was about getting rid of regulations and the excessive

cost of sprinklers. Getting rid of regulation to do smart and effective

regulation properly, we did have a Jungle of legacy regulations in this

country and I think we should be proud of the way we cleared out a

lot of the unnecessary regulation to make life easier for small

businesses. But nobody wants to compromise on safety regulations,

that's not the case at all. OK. Last year there was a vote and has of

commons to ensure that all private landlords ensured that their homes

were fit the human habitation. How did you vote. That was a Private

members Bill and I don't think I voted on it. It was an amendment to

the housing planning Bill. I can't answer your question that it will be

a matter of record. Did you vote against it? Your political critics

say the Tories have launched this war against the so-called health and

safety culture, sneering at it, regulations are always bad, and you

have pushed too far. Regulation is not always bad. Good regulation is

what we need. We have a proper regulatory framework. Obviously

there are questions about it and it is right that the public inquiry

should look at those questions but is not the right way to run

regulatory framework, just to accept amendments that people table... We

have a framework to make sure that buildings are safe and fit

habitation. What we must do is make sure that framework is right and

then also make sure that it is being enforced and implement it in the

proper way and these are the right questions in the wake of a tragedy

like this, we must look at them and the right way to do and is to ask an

independent judge to look at it. The general election gives us in a

situation, are you going to go ahead with ?30 billion cuts to local

authority budgets. 3 billion, I'm sorry. We the BBC! I've noticed! We

set out a series of measures already legislated for. We have other

proposals that will need to look at again in the light of the general

election result and in the new parliament. I will be delivering a

budget in the autumn and you will find out then what we are proposing.

But you are not saying that these ?3 billion cuts in local authority

spending will definitely go ahead? I will say, there's not going to be a

Summer Budget, there'll be a regular one in November as we'd always

planned. And in that budget we will set out our future plans for public

spending, taxation and fiscal balance and everything else that

needs to be clear. If you are against the DUP -- if you are in

Corporation with the DUP, who are against some of your policies, the

general direction will have to change. We will look at all these

things. We are not deaf. We had the message was to begin the general

election. And we need to look at how we deal with the challenges we face

in the economy. And I understand that people are wary after years of

hard work, to rebuild the economy from the great crash of 2008-9. But

we have to live with an our means. And more borrowing which seems to be

Jeremy Corbyn 's answer, is not the solution -- within our means.

Borrowing to fund current consumption is asking the next

generation to pick up the tab for spending that we want to do but not

prepared to pay for. But you would agree with Tobias

Ellwood, the nation has been worn down by austerity. Our economy

contracted by nearly 7% after the financial crisis and it's been a

long process of rebuilding but look at what we have achieved, we have

created 2.9 million new jobs during that period and the growth rate is

nearly double that of France during that period. So that's the record,

that is the history. Looking forward, I've prepared to say we

will take a different direction and a version of austerity that the

country has gone through over the last period is now over and you are

taking a different direction? I took a different direction when I took

this job last year. I changed my predecessor's targets, giving more

fiscal headroom, recognising that we were going through a period of

uncertainty because of taxes negotiations so I have created more

flexibility to respond to the situation on the ground and we will

use that if necessary. You have been clear you are against further

borrowing and saying you are listening to what the country feels

about austerity, so that would imply under certain circumstances you

would be prepared to raise some taxes a bit too blunt the edge of

austerity? We have never said we won't raise some taxes, but we are

government that believes in low taxes and we want to reduce the

burden of taxes overall for working families. That is a political

objective, but what is dishonest is the approach the Labour Party took

in the general election, pretending that you can raise taxes but they

will never impact ordinary people. Increasing the burden of taxation

will have an impact. If it is tax on companies, it will reduce investment

and the creation of jobs. But some people will put the headline on that

saying, austerity is over, says Philip Hammond. I've seen lots of

headlines saying that already. The issue is we have still got the

deficit, 2.5% of our GDP, that is not sustainable in the long term.

Nobody can spend 2.5% more than they've earn every year. We have to

deal with that, we have stretched out the timetable for dealing with

its to support the economy during this period but objective... Our

objective remains to bring the public finances back to violence by

the middle of the next decade, to do that in a way that is sensitive to

the needs of the economy and that's why we deliberately created what we

have called wriggle room on the fiscal side. Very interesting. How

do you think Britain's position when it comes to Brexit negotiations have

been changed by the election result? Our position has been set out in the

Prime Minister's Lancaster house speech, which was generally well

received in the European Union. It is not surprising there has been

posturing and chest beating coming from Brussels, we would expect that,

but what I hear, and I was in Luxembourg on Friday, I hear a

continuing commitment to engage constructively with the UK and a

desire to have a close, ongoing relationship with the UK and that is

good news. But others in the Tory party who call you Remainer Phil,

can you say we are definitely leaving the EU on my watch and we

are definitely moving the single market on my watch? Yes, definitely.

We are leaving the EU and therefore we will be leaving the single

market, and by the way we will be leaving the customs union. The

question is what do we put in its place in order to deliver the

objectives which the Prime Minister set out in the Lancaster house

speech of having no hard border Ireland and enabling British goods

to flow freely across the border. And you know that a lot of

businesses in the city and elsewhere are really worried about this issue

and fears a sharp cliff edge? Yes, and that is the issue. When I talk

about the Brexit, it has two avoid cliff edges and ensure we segued

seamlessly from the customs union to a new arrangement in the future that

will continue to allow British goods to flow not just without tariffs

because actually tariffs are relatively small part of the

problem. It is without delays and bureaucracy because that interferes

with just-in-time supply chains and the flow of fresh produce. We have

got to make sure our border continues to work seamlessly and

that is probably the number one challenge for business. You have set

a different model but this also implies quite a long transitional

arrangement before we leave the customs union, is that right? I have

always said we will need some kind of transitional structures and the

European Union needs to understand that as well. This is not a British

demand, it's a statement of common sense is that if we are going to

radically change the way we work together, we need to get there via a

slow and not cliff edge. That's good for business on both sides of the

English Channel, good for citizens and protecting jobs. Would you

expect to have left the customs union by the end of this Parliament

in 2022? We will leave the customs union when we leave the European

Union, the question is what we put in place, and that may not be a

single arrangement that endures forever, it may be an arrangement

that lasts for a couple of years as a temporary measure before we get to

the long-term agreed status quo of relations between UK and the EU.

During those couple of years, Liam Fox is hopping from foot to foot,

bursting to get out and do his new trade deals around the world and he

cannot do it while we are still tied to the customs union, can he? It

depends. If are restricted on entering new trade deals during an

interim period, that won't stop us negotiating and preparing. Normally

these deals take a long time to negotiate. It also won't stop us

from negotiating deals around services, particularly financial

services. Are you worried about the position of the city? We are about

to do that even now. Are you worried about the position of the city right

now? The financial services sector, by the way which is not just in the

city, it is spread around the country, but it is about 7% of our

economy and an even more important part of our fiscal receipts, about

11% of our taxes come from the financial services sector so very

important we protect it. And because we have an economy that is heavily

services dominated, it is essential for Britain that a future deal with

the European Union is not just about free trade in goods, but also free

trade in services. It has got to be fair and it will only be fair if it

deals with services as well as goods. Do you think no deal is

better than a bad deal? Let me be clear that no deal would be a very

bad outcome for Britain but there is a possible worse outcome and that is

a deal that is deliberately structured to punish us and suck the

lifeblood out of our economy over a period of time and I would not agree

to a deal that was clearly designed to destroy us over a long period of

time. And you are in charge of the money, do you look at some of the

eye watering sums being talked about in the EU as a price for leaving and

say absolutely not on my watch? I look at them and say I don't

recognise these sums at all, it is the most egregious renegotiation

posturing I have seen for a long while but any questions around

money, financial contributions to any organisations will be for the

negotiations which will start tomorrow. Do you think in the

aftermath of the election vote, the tens of thousands promise over

immigration is now dead? The Prime Minister has been clear we will

aspire to deliver overtime sustainable net migration into this

country and that is defined as being below 100,000 per year, but we

haven't put a timescale on it. We know it will be challenging and we

have been very clear we will not do it in a way that damages the British

economy so it has got to go hand-in-hand with addressing our

skills shortage here and we have taken a big step forward with the

announcements on technical skills in the budget. Firstly home broke the

skills we need, then we deal with migration issues

# Home grow. When you saw the exit poll it must have been a bittersweet

moment, you knew you were going to keep your job because if Theresa May

had got a big majority she would have fired you as Chancellor. My

reaction was bitter, nothing sweet about it. I was shocked, it wasn't

the feeling I had got from travelling around the entire

country. Didn't see much of you during the election campaign and the

Prime Minister was planning to sack you. Did you have a conversation

with her? I am not going to repeat to you the private conversation I

had with Theresa May on Friday. It is true that my role in the election

campaign was not the one I would have liked it to be. I did a lot of

travelling around the country, I met lots of interesting people and heard

interesting stories. I would have liked to have made much more of our

economic record which I think is an excellent one, creating 2.9 million

jobs, getting the deficit down by three quarters. It was Nick Timothy

and Fiona Hill keeping you off the airwaves? I'm not going to speculate

about what happened inside the campaign team. My judgment is we

didn't talk about the economy as much as we should have done... And

do you think Theresa May recognises that was a mistake now? Didn't put

enough energy into dismantling Jeremy Corbyn's spending plans,

which would be catastrophic for the country, and we will now do that. We

will address the plans Jeremy Corbyn set out in his manifesto and take

them apart. Very often described as a terrible campaign since, if it had

more economics and Philip Hammond in it, would it have been a better

campaign? Focusing on our strengths is always the right way to campaign,

economic competence has always been one of the great Conservative 's

strengths and we have an excellent economic record. I would have liked

to have highlighted that and I think if we have focused on that we

probably would have done better in the election than we did. How long

has Theresa May got? I think what the country needs now is a period of

calm where we get on with the job in hand. We have some serious issues to

address including Brexit negotiations just starting. Theresa

May is leading the Government and I think the Government needs to get on

with its job and I think that's what most people in this country will

think. The Government needs to get on with the day job of government.

Philip Hammond, thank you very much indeed.

Thanks to all my guests in what has been a genuinely horrible week.

Happy the country whose politics and political programmes