03/09/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning and welcome back after the summer break.

We have learned some things during August.

Labour has quite dramatically changed its position on Brexit.

And from next week, focus shifts to knife-edge votes in the Commons.

But what of the negotiations in Brussels?

From our side, breezy optimism giving way to warnings

From theirs, frankly, snap, crackle and pop.

Perhaps today we can shed a little light.

I hope we can shed some light, because I'm joined by the man

leading Britain's Brexit team, David Davis.

And by Labour's Brexit spokesman, Sir Keir Starmer, on why he's

shifted the party's thinking on leaving the EU and what that

And to review today's news, just ahead of the Commons

returning this week, two backbench voices

The former Labour Minister Caroline Flint, and the new

Plus, casting her eye over some of the big foreign stories,

former BBC diplomatic correspondent, now master of Peterhouse

And we go back to the 60s for a new play about

I'll be talking to the writer and the star of Ink.

Emma Hatton, as Eva Peron, gives us the best song from one

# Don't cry for me, Argentina. # The truth is I never left you.

Not a dry eye. North Korea has carried out

another nuclear test - In the last hour, state media

in Pyongyang said a hydrogen bomb had been detonated at the country's

main testing site Earlier, North Korea's state

news agency released pictures of the leader, Kim Jong-un,

inspecting what it said There is no independent

verification of the claim. Japan has launched a formal protest

following today's test explosion. Senior Cabinet figures have warned

potential Conservative rebels that they risk putting Jeremy Corbyn

into Number 10 if they don't back The Government's EU

Repeal Bill will be debated The Prime Minister has described

the legislation as the single most important step to prevent

a cliff-edge Brexit One pro-EU Tory MP has warned that

attempts to bring them Hospital managers have called

for an emergency bail-out, warning that the NHS faces its worst

winter crisis in recent years. The NHS Providers Group,

which represents the majority of trusts, says the service needs

?200-350 million extra The Government says the NHS

is well prepared to cope And more than 60,000 people have

been moved from their homes in the centre of Frankfurt

in Germany while specialists defuse a huge unexploded bomb dropped

by the RAF during the Second World All homes and businesses

within a one-mile radius To the front pages, and, shock,

horror, there is a bit of politics on them.

The Sunday Telegraph, Tory rebels told, back Brexit or you will get

Corbyn. Less helpful on the front of the Sunday Times for Theresa May,

Theresa May secretly agrees to a ?50 billion Brexit deal, we will ask

David Davis if that is true. Also, it says 70% of voters do not want

the Prime Minister to fight the next election. The Mail On Sunday's main

story is they have this memo, they call it a bombshell memo, from

Lynton Crosby, the Tory election Guru, who warned Theresa May clearly

ahead of the last election, according to

them, that she was taking a risk in calling it, and she ignored that,

says the Mail. Lots more on that later on. Finally, the Observer, and

anti-Brexit newspaper, furious Tory MPs reject Theresa May's threats

over Brexit vote. So politics is just back but moving very fast

indeed. Caroline Flint, let's start with the Mail On Sunday. It is

interesting about the headlines, most of the broadsheets are focusing

on Brexit but the tabloids are focusing on what has happened to

Wayne Rooney said there are two worlds, Brexit world and Wayne's

world, and I think a lot of the public outside of the elections,

politics is a minority sport. Back to the memo, there is a lot today...

I thought for a horrible moment you were going to ask me to talk about

Wayne Rooney! No, no, we will steer clear of that one! But in terms of

the memo which has been leaked, from Lynton Crosby, warning Theresa May

against calling an election, quite interesting for a number of reasons,

one because Bridget and others will talk about the fact there is

pressure on Tory backbenchers to back the Prime Minister. She had the

election because she wanted to make her situation more secure and that

has not happened, but the other thing is Lynton Crosby got a huge

amount of bad press over his part in that election, I think this is about

him redeeming his reputation by saying they should not call it, and

if you do have it, focus on the economy, because the Tories did not

do that either. It is him making sure his footnote in history is

clear and correct. You can smell the reek of scores being settled.

Definitely. There is a lot of hindsight analysis going on at the

moment. I remember when the election was called. The local elections took

place a few days or a week later, picked up seats like the side which

we would never have expected, we had just recently won the Copeland

by-election, so she was doing very well. All of what we are hearing now

is just people revisiting it with hindsight, it is all hindsight. If

she had done much better than that, no-one would be talking about this

memo. Kemi, because you a Tory MP I think I know the answer, but Theresa

May says she wants to fight the next election, the last one was not a

pitch perfect campaign, if I can put it that way, are you relaxed about

her doing the same thing again? Personally, I am. Many people will

disagree but fighting an election is mutual consent, you decide with your

party and also with the country, and I think the way she answered the

question was absolutely right, we are in the middle of some of the

most difficult negotiations that the country has faced and the idea that

she should have responded by saying, oh, yes, I will probably go in a

couple of years, it will have triggered discussions on leadership,

it is the only thing she could say. But she is wounded, as we know. It

is interesting that settling scores over the last election brings us to

the Sunday Telegraph headline and the Observer related one about what

will happen in Parliament, back Brexit or get Corbyn. The idea after

what happened in the last election that there will be a new election

round the corner, not very likely. Labour keeps saying there will be an

election coming soon, but unless the Tories break apart completely over

Brexit, and we will talk about that, it is hard to see how it can happen.

Nonetheless, this will be the story of the week. I think that will

slowly go viral and be repeated ad nauseam. It will, and it is a shame

because I know from personal experience that we are united, there

will always be people who disagree, people talking themselves up to be

more than they are, but we are united. Given the only needs to be

second Tory MPs disagree and vote with Labour to cause real problems

for the Government. And I think it is the tone, Theresa May so often

misses the tone needed for dealing with events, and firing this firing

this off this week is going to get up the backs of many Tory MPs, as we

have seen them quoted in the papers today. We have not spoken much about

the Labour change of position, the transitional deal staying inside the

single market and Customs union, do you welcome that? There are lots of

people in the Labour Party had thing, this is our chance to avoid

Brexit entirely, goes on forever, Tom Watson has said it could be

permanent, what is your message to them? I don't think that could be

the case. I said over a year ago now that the idea that we would not have

to have transition plans was nonsense, we had Brexiteers saying

we could just go, just finish it all in March 2019 and then there were

others on the Remain side who think we can have our cake and eat it, be

full members of the single market and customs union and in some

respects some of those have taken from what Keir Starmer said that

this will allow us to reverse the decision. I totally disagree with

that. You disagree with Tom Watson? I disagree that it could be a

permanent decision, because we are leaving the European Union and my

opinion piece in the Sunday Telegraph made clear that in Keir

Starmer's own words, he said, we will exit the European Union in

March 2019, the transition is a transition, however it is reasonable

that he should point out that whilst we are in the transition, staying in

the single market and customs union until things are result has to be

the case, but he recognises that we cannot be full members and there has

to be a change with the freedom of movement. David Davis is talking

about Labour's motivation is pursuit of chaos and I think there are

probably some colleagues who want to think about ways they can delay the

inevitable, but I also read in the bottom of David's article that, for

my part, I will work with anyone of any party. One of the faults of

Government is they have not been open to working cross party in a

sensible way and here is an opportunity, maybe you could ask

today, you did ask Keir Starmer to be part of discussion about how we

leave the European Union and maintain business and good

opportunities. Will you come instance, backed the Government in

this way? I am very clear that I am not going to try and disrupt us

leaving the European Union. Having said that, there are legitimate

questions to be asked as we take the bill through Parliament, and that is

fair enough, but I am not going to be involved in wrecking for

wrecking's said. Some of Keir Starmer's specific worries you would

share... I would share that but as we have seen in the discussion

before Parliament rose on the nuclear agency there are issues to

be sorted out but let's not forget that part of the bill is actually

adoption, it should be called the great adoption bill because we will

be adopting wholesale the framework that currently exist and then

looking at how we will make we move forward. So I think the language and

tone is vitally important and I think the Government word Daft a

year ago to talk about somehow we should leave with no deal at all,

that is not helpful. Kemi, you have chosen Damian Green, Deputy Prime

Minister now, great survivor, written a piece in the Sunday

Telegraph, I remember years ago thinking his political career was on

the way down but he is suddenly at the top again and enjoying it

hugely, but he was a Remain campaigner, very passionate. And

that is why I selected it because I think there is a narrative about

Brexiteers versus Remainers, which is no longer the case. The vast

majority of people in the country want us to get on with this, which

is why it is unhelpful to talk about leaderships and when the PM is going

to go. And I think people like Damien are working very hard to try

and get the best possible deal, if we don't all come together to make

this happen then we will see a Prime Minister Corbyn and that is

definitely not something we want to see. Before we leave Brexit, we will

come onto other possibly more important matters in a moment,

Bridget, but before we leave Brexit I must ask about this ?50 billion

Brexit Bill that the Sunday Times suggests is coming. This is a

problem for Government, there is going to be some kind of bill, we

don't know what the figure is put at the Tory party conference at the

beginning of next month, Tory supporters are Brexit and Tory

opponents of Brexit will want to know what the number is, won't they?

Yes, and I am surprised a number has come up because it was just a couple

of days ago that the EU said they have not had discussions on numbers

and we are keeping our cards close to our chest. But whatever the

number is there will be people who disagree with it, and that is just

the nature of negotiations, and I think October is a reasonable time

for us to come to a conclusion, David Davis can tell you more about

that. I have a quiet prediction about that conversation, I think I

know how it will go! I am suspicious about the headline. Some news

happened so quickly that it does not make the Sunday papers and you have

taken the BBC News? This is North Korea's test which happened too late

for the papers but it is on the website, the BBC website. The most

recent story is North Korea has hailed it a perfect hydrogen bomb

test. It has certainly been very big, the sixth one, experts say we

should be cautious about whether they have the capacity for a

hydrogen bomb but the North Korean leader was shown on inspecting what

they claim is a hydrogen bomb, they say they can put it on a missile. It

reminds us yet again that they have a growing capability and, what's

more, they are not cowed by any warnings from

People are becoming almost relaxed, another North Korean nuclear test.

Yet another missile. They are ramping it up. Showing greater

capability. The big question is, is there anything the West can do? It

is worth making the point, they are not crossing red lines, they have

not sent a missile over Guam. Perhaps they are being more

calibrated. There is a useful article today in the Observer which

is by an academic at the School of Oriental and African studies. The

key to North Korea is how can you have a military solution when North

Korea has the trump card of the South Korean capital Seoul just

south of the border with millions of people in it? Anything the US did,

the counterstrike would immediately beyond Seoul which takes us back to

the fact there has to be some containment through diplomacy and

the key to that is China and for that, we need to read China's mind

carefully and this is a good article explaining China's

concerns. He makes the point it is not China is worried there will be

many refugees, not that they are worried the Korean peninsula would

become an American foothold. Once North Korea is not fair, the

Americans would no longer have a reason to be there. He says it is

internal Chinese politics. It is really important for us to

understand this to move to the next step which is to try to missed the

Chinese in something, to get us out of this dangerous position. Another

nuclear story, but before that, Caroline, teachers. Children are

going back to school next week and the story in the Observer is about

teachers, ?5,000 worth of every year under the Tories, wages have not

kept up with inflation. -- worse off. Recruitment targets have been

missed for five years running and two years in a row, more teachers

have left the profession than have joined. This is worrying because

although the Government will say there are more teachers than ever

before, there has been a bulge in pupil numbers, so it has not kept

up, so there is a real terms increase in funding per pupil. There

are domestic policy issues which have to be attended to. Domestic

worries, not much worse than this, you have written a book on the Cold

War experience, just came out, this is a story, terrified about a

nuclear attack. It is funny, having immersed myself in the half-century

of the Cold War how the teams come back. This is called putter when the

bomb drops. Because of North Korea, the article makes the point, we are

a long way from a bomb being dropped from North Korea on Britain,

nonetheless, what are the provisions? What he has found out is

that instead of it being the broadcasting service and the dulcet

tones of Peter Donaldson sadly telling us to be calm and carry on,

nowadays, it might be through our mobile phones because the Government

would be able to contact everybody and also turn them into a one-way

signal, we would wait for instructions in the morning from the

Government. One other little nuance, you have to go somewhere a long way

from radioactive particles to cleanse yourself of them and you can

wash yourself with shampoo but do not use conditioner because it will

bind radioactive material to your hair. Remember that! We like to

cheer people up in this news review! And give them useful, practical

information! Thank you for that, very interesting.

You get gorgeous hot days with just a hint of autumn ahead

I wonder if Tomasz Schafernaker in the weather studio feels the same?

Sometimes your hand to the weather is longer than the weather forecast

itself! There sunshine on the way for sure across eastern parts of the

UK. We woke up to a beautiful sunrise. In the West, the clouds

have been increasing overnight and it is a totally different story for

south-west England, Wales, Northern Ireland and parts of western

Scotland. The rain has been moving in. It will not train hard all day,

just dribs drabs. Many of the Eastern counties from Kent to the

north-east of Scotland should stay dry through most of the afternoon.

Tonight, even when the rain does reach knowledge, it will be splits

and spots, pretty much it. 16 degrees overnight low, warm and

humid air on top of us. Tomorrow, lots of cloud in the morning,

missed, drizzle and places, rain in parts of Scotland. If the clouds

break, temperatures up to 20-23d. As far as the early part of the is

concerned, a little mix, rain around, but on balance, the early

September weather is not looking too bad. Andrew, back to you.

Later this month, Labour's Conference meets in Brighton,

and anti-Brexit campaigners are preparing for a big push

Over the past couple of weeks, many of them have come

to see Sir Keir Starmer, Jeremy Corbyn's Brexit

Well, he's certainly shifted the policy on how we leave the EU,

He joins me now. This is a big change of policy compared with the

beginning of the summer. It is a really important development. We

have always said jobs and the economy come first and we would

retain the benefits of the single market and Customs union. The clock

is ticking and we are going to need transitional arrangements. The

Government was pretending we would not at one stage. It is important we

take leadership as the the terms of the transitional arrangements and we

have said the transitional period, from March, 2019, until we get to a

new and final deal, it will be within a customs union and within

the single market. There is absolute clarity about that and it is EA

knighted Labour Party position. It is a U-turn because Jeremy Corbyn

was sacking people for saying much the same thing not long ago. No, it

is not a U-turn, it is a development policy. The terms of the

transitional arrangements, Labour has never said anything other than

retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union. The

argument is what about the final position is. It is an important

development and what is really important about this is that Labour

has become united and has a clear possession and that is in the public

interest. To be absolutely clear, for a period of time after we have

formally left the EU, and a Labour's plan, we will be inside the singles

market and the customs union? Yes. Paying money in and free movement as

now and subjected European Court of Justice? Yes. Let me explain.

Everybody says we have to avoid a cliff edge, we need certainty and

stability and that is the way to achieve it. It is obvious we need

more time to resolve the position in Northern Ireland, a delicate

position, not just the technicalities of the border. There

is an inevitability about this. There is a real risk the Government

will not get onto phase two because they are going so slowly and to

suggest as some do you could have bespoke special arrangements and

negotiate between now and March, 2019, it is nonsense. This is

grown-up politics from the Labour Party in the public interest. You

say to avoid a cliff edge, but you just push it further away, there

will be a cliff edge when we leave these arrangements. I accept having

interim arrangements is necessary but we have got to look at what the

end result will be as well and that is why I say they should be as short

as possible. I do not think temporary arrangements should go on

for as long as... Any longer than necessary. How long? Will these

temporary arrangements be over by the time of the next election, for

instance? I think they could be and I genuinely think they should be as

short as possible. They could be two years. They may take longer. What is

really important is what we are trying to achieve is a deal that

will last for decades and there are some big questions coming into very

sharp focus because that final deal is a deal when we will have to

decide as a country, do we want to orientate ourselves around Europe,

the US or China? What is your answer? Europe is... We share

history, values, major trading block. Of course, we will be out of

the EU from March, 2019. But the EU is the major focus for us on trade,

we need to keep that clearly in focus. Many will look at the plan to

stay inside the single market and Customs union and think, this is a

way of effectively over time staying inside the EU. Perhaps the economy

goes south for a while, and election comes with a different result, and

another chance at it. The anti-Brexit people are saying, Kier

Starmer is giving us a way through. Everybody knows that we leave the EU

in March, 2019. That is the obvious effect of triggering Article 50.

That will happen. The transitional measures are between that point and

reaching a final, we say, positive partnership with Europe that

recognises that Europe is our major trading partner. Under your new

plan, we are inside the single market and the customs union, paying

in, and of the ECJ, it will feel very much as if we are still inside

the EU but we will not have votes. Tom Watson says it could be a

permanent arrangement. We need to put Tom Watson's remarks in context.

I do not want to get into the weeds of this. Into context or into a box?

What we have said about the final arrangement is we want a partnership

with the EU retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs

union. We are open to a discussion leaving a customs union with the EU

on the table a viable option. This could be parliament? We have not

slept it off the table. -- this could be permanent? If you want to

retain the benefits, you have to be open to that discussion. We are not

sleeping it off the table. When you say a customs union with the EU and

not the customs union, what do you mean? To be in the customs union,

you must be a member of the EU. Anything other than that is a

customs union. We could replicate virtually the system now? We could

attempt to have an arrangement delivering the benefits of the

customs union we have now through a customs union and we should think

that should be a viable end goal. If we are virtually inside the single

market for the long-time NEET term, what needs to change for that to be

possible? There are issues about freedom of movement and wider

issues. Freedom of movement and the question of whether it will be

freedom of movement in the transitional period, the Government

has commissioned a review of immigration and that will not report

into next year, the chances of a brand-new immigration policy by

March, 2019, it is zero. We are in the situation were under this plan

we will be inside the EU in many respects in the transitional period,

we will not have any votes and we will not be able to strike deals

around the rest of the world as Theresa May was trying to do in

Japan and David Davis in the States. Is it not the worst of all possible

worlds? In the short term, it will work. I accept the argument we will

not have votes. Most of the provisions that will come into force

in that two, three-year period, it will be provisions we will have had

a say on. I am not pretending transitionals are ideal, they are

necessary, but they should be as short as possible. Crucial question,

are you saying we could stay inside the single market for the long term?

I am saying we should have as a viable option a changed relationship

with the single market that delivers the benefits of the single market.

Full membership, the membership we have now, is there because we are an

EU member. We are leaving the EU in March, 2019. The question is, can we

have a constructive arrangement truly delivering the benefits of the

single market and that is what we are focused on? The Parliamentary

arguments, you have written a letter to David Davis setting out

objections you have to the Great Repeal Bill as it is being called.

It is a very, very wide sweeping bill. The idea of converting EU law

into our law is right but the way the Government has gone about it is

completely wrong. They want sweeping powers that effectively take powers

from Brussels and put them into the hands of ministers. The so-called

Henry VIII...? I am sure many people will not know about this. He did not

like Parliament so he issued proclamations to amend legislation

and the use of these powers since then has been highly controversial.

This bill has the power to make delegated legislation which can

change primary legislation without Parliament having the usual

scrutiny. That is really important because you could entrench important

EU rights on Monday and take them away on Tuesday without primary

legislation. The David Davis of old would not have had much to do with

that. They say to avoid the cliff edge, to avoid chaos, so business

and everyone knows where we are, you have to whole-cell take that EU

regulations and put them into British law and essentially that is

what the bill is doing and if you destroy this Bill, defeat this Bill

in the House of Commons, we are in a completely chaotic situation. It is

not about frustrating the process, it is not giving government the

blank cheque to pass powers into the hands of ministers. Transitional

measures, the Bill makes clear the role of the European Court of

Justice will be extinguished. We might say it is consistent with

leaving, but it puts the date into the hands of the Secretary of State,

not Parliament. These are very wide powers and we cannot just give a

blank cheque to the Government. We cannot go through all of your

objections because that of several. If David Davis sits down with you

but does not accept all of your points, are you definitely going to

vote against this Bill? I flagged these points up at the

beginning of the summer and said, if you don't address them, we will vote

against it. We have not reached that stage yet but we are clear that

whilst we accept the result of the referendum we are not giving a blank

cheque to the Government to do it in a way that is not in the public

interest. For many in the Labour Party who dream of Brexit been

properly reversed, and of staying inside the EU, we are now in a

situation where we might stay pretty much inside the single market, the

customs union, according to Tom Watson, long term. What is your

message to them? We have always said we accept the outcome of the

referendum, we want a Progressive partnership and somehow we have to

come up with an arrangement which properly reflects the vote, brings

the country back together, and that is about big-ticket items such as,

what is your basic trading relationship with Europe and what

else can you do with the rest of the world and how do you collaborate and

cooperate more widely. You will be fighting on the floor of the House

of Commons not just on this but other issues, do you have Tory

support? There are many Tories who are concerned about the position the

Government finds itself in, which is pretty shambolic, very slow

progress, and I think some of them this summer have been looking across

at the Labour Party thinking, they have a clearer, more coherent

position than we have now. It will be an interesting few weeks. Thank

you very much indeed. These days, Rupert Murdoch is seen

as part of the modern establishment - the single most powerful

man in the media. But when he started out,

he was an absolute outsider, the young rebel creating effectively

a new paper, The Sun, to try to bring down what was then

Britain's most successful paper Recently, I caught up with writer

James Graham and Bertie Carvel, who plays Murdoch in Ink,

a new play about the I started by asking them

about the challenges of portraying a man loathed by liberal Britain,

who often loathed it in return. There are other ways

to destroy people. The moral of the story is that power

replaces itself with itself, and you can either stand

on the other side of the window, tap, tap, tap,

asking to come in, or We sort of knew from the beginning

that we didn't necessarily want to do, ironically,

often what his papers are accused of doing,

which is do a hatchet job on him. We wanted to do something a bit more

nuanced and try to get under the skin of him as a man,

as a news man, try and understand his philosophy,

what was driving him at the time, and I guess also ask questions

about both what was going wrong in Fleet Street in the 1960s

that he was trying to change, and then also ask the question

at the end of the play, what have we lost as a result

of that, as a result of him winning? Now, of course, he is seen as this

elderly, hugely powerful, Back then, when you're playing him,

he's a young, rebellious outsider, and quite likeable in many

ways, as well? Very much so, and you

certainly read, people said He's a Young Turk, he's

an iconoclast, and he's trying to break apart an establishment

and a system he sees as, you know, Yes, bring down Wilson,

his high spending, Behold the hypocrisy of your

treasured liberal establishment, the belief that they know best,

that it's their, what, their responsibility to reverse

the poor democratic choices of the people they pretend to defend

and replace the Government Someone with quite a strong sense

of moral rectitude who then persuades themself that what's good

business is also good democracy and that it's actually answering

a kind of democratic need. Larry Lamb, Murdoch's first editor,

is determined to beat the mirror under any circumstances and in any

way necessary, and that leads Yes, so it was incredibly dangerous,

incredibly shocking, Larry Lamb, in fact,

from my research, kept it Who didn't like it,

who didn't like it very much, he was against this when he saw

it, wasn't he? He has these enjoyable

contradictions as a man, because even though he's very,

what we see him to be, very forthright and determined,

he actually has this sort of prudishness around this stuff,

and as far as I can understand he was sort of furious,

absolutely furious that Larry Lamb To him, it confirmed in other

people's minds on Fleet Street that they were just this

down-market, trashy pair of pornographers

who were doing anything to win. And it's a brilliant moment

in the play, because in that moment Murdoch is confronted

with the meeting on the one hand of the logical end point

of this kind of driving, free market driven, "give people

what they want" drive for success, and then it sort of comes up

and bites him, and he starts to see what that might look like,

and his moralistic side has to deal with that and contain

those two things. There's another line

where somebody says that, in terms of popular culture

and popular democracy in the press, it will only really be finally

democratised when people can publish their own news

themselves, which is of course Are you trying to draw a line

between The Sun in the 1960s and the world of the internet

and Twitter now? I think so, and in a way we don't

really have to push that to heart, -- push that too hard,

an audience can draw those lines themselves,

but I think 1969 was a crossroads for our news industry,

for journalism and the media. And, as we know, Murdoch pretty much

won that argument and news changed, and I think here today everything

that we've gone through in the referendum and Donald Trump

and everything that's happening on social media, the news

is changing, and we're not OK, I'm going to put

you on the spot now. The play is very, very balanced,

but do you, as a playwright, think that what happened

was actually corrosive to public I think I would like the audience

to decide that for themselves! Obviously I have my

own personal views. I think you win things

and you lose things. I personally think, I wouldn't

pretend for a second that I think universally that the tabloid culture

has been entirely healthy for our Theatre has this conversation

all the time, how do you balance the responsibility to be

challenging, to be provocative, to take risks, to address issues

that are not necessarily very comfortable, but also be

entertaining, also be accessible? So I think it was, the right

conversation was had, but I'm not sure the answer

was the right one. No, not with just our lot,

we're going to need the odds Your other play that's been running

so successfully recently, This House, which was about a very,

very carefully balanced House of Commons in the late 1970s

when the whips were sort of dragging people out of the toilets

and bringing them on stretchers to vote, a sort of heroic sense

that this was a Government which didn't really have the numbers

to survive, desperately struggling on, which takes us right

to the here and now because again we have a Government

with a wafer-thin majority, again the whips are going to be

working the toilets and the bars late night after night after night,

and it's going to feel, in 2017, I think that's right,

and obviously when I wrote it I had no idea that this

was going to happen, that there'd be an election

or that it would certainly be a hung I mean, with This House,

I was so grateful it did so well and people came to see it,

but I think in a way it was often a knock-about comedy,

it was very funny to watch those whips behave under such strain

and in such bizarre circumstances, as you say, wheeling in people

in ambulances and having to carry I think, though, in reality today,

given the strains and the challenges that we face as a country,

any paralysis in parliament, any inability to get conversations

going or to get business through the house is going to be

incredibly damaging, obviously damaging to the Government

but I think it's going to be So I'm not sure it would feel

quite so funny any more Can I ask you both,

if Rupert Murdoch does come to see the play,

and he suggested that he might, what's he going to think

of himself by the end? I'd love to know, I hope he'll

come and let us know I guess it's a funny

feeling as a playwright, because obviously I don't want him

to like it too much, because we try and be nuanced,

we try and ask the right questions and understand him and get

to the heart of what drove him, and be fair, but equally we do have

to hold him to account a bit, and I think all we can do is sort

of present the facts as we see them, the actions that he took,

the decisions that he made, and let the audience then work out

whether they think it was a proportionate response

to what was happening So I would like him to think

that we are fair, but that we ask. But you've asked him

some tough questions? That's what we'd like him to think,

but I really don't know what. It must be a very weird

experience to watch yourself It's what, like, what will

the audience do, as well? I imagine that, for the first

time in the show, no-one will look at my play,

everyone will just turn around and look at him to see

what his response would be. Rupert Murdoch never misses

The Andrew Marr Show, so he'll have seen that,

and I'm sure he'll be James Graham and

Bertie Carvel there. And Ink, directed by Rupert Goold,

opens in London's West End this This week's news has been dominated

by those Brexit negotiations. Now, very sadly for us,

the EU negotiators are, so far, very camera shy, so we can't ask them why

they are so are worried, and But David Davis, Cabinet Minister

in charge of Brexit, who this week warned of more

turbulence ahead but said he was still confident

of a good deal, is here. He is not camera shy! Let's start

with the negotiations because Mr Barnier was told about how he felt

there was very little progress, time is running out, you are not being

entirely serious, he was quite hostile on the way you have

conducted negotiations. He can take whatever line he likes on the way we

conduct the negotiations, that is up to him. But to give an example of

progress, when I was last on the show I talked about the need to

guarantee health care for people currently in Europe. We did that

last week, we want to extend it to everybody, deep card scheme to be

extended to everybody, but we have agreed it were British citizens in

Europe, Spain, Italy, France, wherever, that is agreed and done,

very important. Social Security contributions for these people all

now agreed. Other things... For people there already? That is the

only thing they will talk about at the moment, that is the point about

the Europeans, they won't talk about the future, only the so-called

divorce proceedings. Lots and lots of technical stuff, frontier workers

and so on, if you are a British citizen living in Holland, working

in Germany, living in France and working in Belgium, this matters to

you, those things we have been resolving, what he is not getting

the answer on money, they have set this up to put the pressure on us,

they are trying to put time against money. Are you being blackmailed in

that regard? What is going on, it is quite important because there are

stories flying around in the papers this morning... ?50 billion. It is

nonsense, completely wrong. What we are doing, for example, on this, the

approach we are taken, we are saying, you have given this enormous

bill, like Hotel, if you get an enormous bill, you go through it

line by line. But you don't walk off before you have paid! It is like the

Hotel Saint, make an offer will stop no, we are not going to that, we

will go through it line by line and they are finding it difficult

because we have good lawyers, we gave them a 2.5 hour presentation

and they complained about that. We are going through this very

systematically, in a very British way, very pragmatic, and he is

finding it difficult and wants to put pressure on us which is why he

has started this in this press conference, and bluntly I think he

looks a bit silly because they're plainly were things that we have

achieved, but the commission, I mean, I like him, I have known him

for 20 years, but the commission puts itself in a silly position

saying nothing has been done when these really important things... We

put people before process, what they are in danger of doing is putting

process before people. This is not going terribly well, keep things you

are nostalgic, you think he is silly and time is running out. I did not

say he is silly, don't put words in my mouth, I said the commission is

making itself look silly. This is a two-year negotiation and they are

trying to use time against us. I said this will be turbulent. People

should not panic... More trouble ahead? Every time we can do

something there will be a pressure exercise of this sort. Money is

incredibly important, it is the thing that frightens the most, the

money issue, but there are other big ones along the way and they will,

each time there will be a pressure point, each time you will see a

flurry of nervousness, but the truth is we will get through it.

Jacob Rees Mogg says, if we leave, we could leave without an agreement,

we are not a penny. The strict position is that there is no

enforceable... What we have said all along is we are a country that needs

its international obligations. But they have to be that. They may not

be legal, they may be moral, political. Also, we want to leave in

an orderly and smooth manner. I will come back to that. In order to do

that, it is best to leave on amicable terms, proper negotiated

terms, rather than just walking away. There are issues if you just

walk away. It can be done but there are issues. We are aiming for a

smooth, sensible, amicable exit leaving us and the EU in a good

position. You said earlier on the ?50 billion figure is completely

wrong. You must know by now roughly speaking in your back pocket what

the hotel bill will cost. Well, look, the first thing to say is the

approach we are taking is as described earlier, line by line, go

through the exercise. We will then talk about what happens next. We

have said in terms that era of big payments to the EU is coming to an

end. We will still be paying something, I suspect. We have

measures like all the space research stuff, all of the issues on nuclear

research. What about money to Ukraine, Africa? That is a different

matter. Bear in mind... We did agree these budgets originally? Therefore,

you might say, there is a moral obligation. That is the argument. In

a sense what the EU is saying it is a legal obligation, we are saying,

no, it is not. In the medium to long-term, we will not pay great big

payments. If you walk away from your phone contract, for instance, you

expect to be stung for the cost of the contract. It is a legal

contract. We have been through a legal argument and we are still

going through it. The simple truth is, we have got a strong legal

arguments to say what they have said so far is not right. We are not very

many weeks away from the Tory party conference and a lot of people there

will want to know roughly speaking how much we will be paying. Will

they be told that? What they want is that we get a good deal, not that we

talk about it, but that we get it. It is the most complex negotiation

ever, certainly in modern times. You do not get a negotiated outcome by

saying, this is what we want, this is what we will do. It does not work

like that. In the referendum campaign and afterwards, you told us

it would be a straightforward negotiation, you gave the impression

it would be a breeze and it is appearing to be the opposite. I said

the strategy is straightforward, some of it would be quite

complicated. You said, there is a very easy vomit then you say, no,

not easy, straightforward negotiation and we are certain to

get a good deal -- there is a very easy, then you say, no, not easy.

October, the summit, that was the timing. That is Michel Barnier's

timing. Ideally, we would be in a position to, we will have made...

Their phrase is sufficient progress. It is our decision on sufficient

progress. We have got through so many things, they will make a call.

I will not allow them to use the time pressure on that to somehow

force us into doing X, Y, Z. When you have a pressure point, issues

will come your way. When you were so confident in the referendum

campaign, one of the reasons you were confident, he said, who was the

most powerful politician? Angela Merkel. You are not negotiating with

Angela Merkel, you are negotiating with Shell Barnier. Do you detect

any frustration in the rest of the EU? If I did, I would not talk about

it on earth. Sounds like a yes. Do not put words in my mouth! -- I

would not talk about it on air. Angela Merkel is facing an election.

In October, the next round, then make or may not be a German covenant

in place. There will be a German government! The newly negotiated

outcome, it sometimes take them. What you do not want to do is put

money or anything else, something on the table, then have someone say,

that is not good enough. The negotiations are complex and

sophisticated and you must be very wary of thinking, if we just... The

Labour Party, you have had Kier Starmer on, just do this, do that.

Everything has a negotiating effect and they are not allowing for that

in their negotiations. This is very difficult. Interesting story in the

Sunday Telegraph today saying actually we may well not get a deal,

quite a high proportion of problems over money and the border and the

rest of it, we may not make it, and therefore, we should be planning

very carefully and Cabinet Minister saying we have to have a careful

proper plan otherwise we cannot call their bluff. We are planning for all

options. Mervyn King said something similar a month ago. We're not

particularly publicising it because every time you publicise a thing

like that, people say, look, they are trying to get a no deal. That is

not the case. We are putting all our effort into getting a good deal and

we think that is by far and away the high probability but we have to plan

for every option. As you fly into Brussels, you think, each time, this

is possible. It will not work. It is possible. You have 15 elections, all

sorts of noises. The simple truth to keep at the back of your mind, in

2015, we sold 230 billion to them in euros, they sold 290 billion to us.

The Belgian economy some of them, it is very, very important. The Belgium

economy is important. Parts of Germany. The richest and biggest

part of Germany is Bavaria. BMW. Is it the case therefore that Michel

Barnier is negotiating with a very tight series of rules given and

actually the really big political decisions without which a

breakthrough will not happen will be made in Paris, Berlin, Vienna and

other European cities? They will be made in the council, technically.

You are right, the big players will be very important. What has been

interesting, one of the groups I thought... I was nervous at the

wrong word, cautious. The French. Brand-new government, still getting

itself bedded in, looking at this with a very constructive viewpoint.

We are seeing lots of optimistic noises but we have to respect the

process, deal with the commission, and then of course put it in such a

way that the council will come back and say, this is worth doing. We are

beginning to run out of time. I must ask you about Parliament, the big

crunch. Is it the case that the Tory MPs who quite like what they hear

from Keir Starmer about staying inside the single market and the

customs union for transitional arrangements and are worried about

the number of powers ministers are in gorging in the process of this

shifting of legislation across, are you really saying that if they back

Labour in amendments in the House of Commons, they will let in Jeremy

Corbyn? There is an even more important issue. We made plain, this

bill is there in order to enable continuity. If you want a soft

Brexit, and I do not deal with soft and hard, I want an effective and

successful Brexit. If you want something like continuity, this is

the bill you should be supporting. It takes as someone said on your

sofa earlier, it takes the law is there know and put them in place the

day after we leave. I think it was Caroline Flint. It is not just a

question of the national politics, it is a question of what is right.

Poor old Keir Starmer, I am negotiating with Brussels, he is

negotiating with the rest of his party. Quite successfully. The

seventh, eighth, ninth position, depending on how you count them, in

12 months. Tom Watson's proposal, staying in the single market in

perpetuity, is a direct rebuttal of what they promised their own voters

in the last election. They said they would support Brexit and put it

through. What Tom Watson is saying effectively, an old mate of mine, he

said, we will carry on, stay in the single market. You cannot do that.

Nevertheless, let us get real, what is going on is that Jeremy Corbyn

and the Labour leadership understand that if they will pull down your

government, the only way to do it is over this issue,

so they will try and destroy you in the House of Commons. They have gone

in for the most cynical approach. They know the bill is necessary.

Keir Starmer admitted that to you. They know the claims they make

nonsense, Henry VIII powers, made it sound as if... Dominic Grieve,

former colleague, Tory backbencher, he agrees with him. He has not come

up with an alternative, and neither has Keir Starmer. The best authority

on this is the constitutional committee on the House of Lords,

very strong remainer body, the House of Lords, the constitutional

committee says, this is the way it has to be done, you have to have

secondary legislation. Tory MPs thinking of voting with their

opposition, what is your last brief message? Everything that is

significant in terms of changes, not technical changes, it will be done

in separate primary legislation, immigration bills, customs, you name

it. This bill is about ensuring continuity. Anybody, they should

support this bill. When you saw that Theresa May whose conduct at the

last general election campaign you were not totally happy with is

determined to fight the next one, did your heart lift? She is a great

Prime Minister. I have served her for the last 12 months and I have

never been anything less than impressed by the way she runs the

country, that is what matters, not the politics, running the country,

and she does a good job. Thank you for talking to us.

Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.

Should soldiers who served in Northern Ireland face questions

about killings dating back nearly 50 years? Should memorials the famous

figures including Nelson be torn down because of their support for

slavery? What leaders of so-called Islamic State told the Vicar of

Baghdad when he invited them round for a meal. Join us at 10am.

Just enough time to tell you that next week we're

For one week only, that's a half eight start here

on BBC One because of coverage of the Great North Run.

Before we go today, music as promised.

Eva Peron was both revered and reviled as First Lady of Argentina.

Evita enjoyed a personality cult that is still alive and well among

many Argentinians in this, the 65th anniversary of her death.

There were commemorations right across the country this summer

Well, the musical of Evita is back in London, where it started

And the star of the show is here this morning

We leave you now with Emma Hatton and Don't Cry For Me Argentina.

# All you will see is a girl you once knew

# Although she's dressed up to the nines

# All through my wild days, my mad existence

# And as for fortune, and as for fame

# Though it seemed to the world they were all I desired

# They're not the solutions they promised to be

# And hope you love me all the time I love you

# Don't cry for me, Argentina

# The truth is, I never left you