29/10/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


29/10/2017

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LineFromTo

Good morning.

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The Harvey Weinstein story seems

to be changing something quite

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profound in our culture,

as stories of sexual abuse

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spill out from Hollywood,

the theatre, the media,

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including the BBC, and now,

this week, Westminster as well.

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Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday

that this is a turning point.

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Is it?

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Diane Abbott, the shadow

Home Secretary, has had

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30 years of experience

of the Westminster culture.

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Mr Corbyn said something needs

to change - so, what?

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But there's another huge national

issue we're looking at today.

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Theresa May writes this

morning about her new

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crusade on mental health.

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The Government is promising action,

but what's the actual Tory

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record on mental health?

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I'll be asking the Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt.

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With the Catalan crisis

still dominating today's news,

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I'm going to be looking at some

of its origins and the unsettling

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historical parallels with a leading

historian of the Spanish civil war,

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Antony Beevor.

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Playing us out this morning,

a Grammy Award-winning

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country star, Jason Isbell.

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# Knowing that this can't go on

forever.

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# Likely one of us will have to

spend some days alone.

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Reviewing the news,

the Corbyn-supporting Guardian

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columnist Owen Jones,

and the author and commentator

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Isabel Oakeshott.

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All that coming up after

the news, read this morning

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by Christian Fraser.

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Supporters of a united Spain

are expected to gather in Barcelona

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today amid rising tension over

Catalonia's declaration

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of independence, which has plunged

the country into a political crisis.

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The Spanish government has sacked

the region's leader,

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Carles Puigdemont, and imposed

direct rule from Madrid.

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Mr Puigdemont has responded

with a call for "democratic

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opposition" from all Catalans.

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Gavin Lee is in Barcelona

for us this morning.

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What is the latest?

These are the days of alternate

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demonstrations. We had on Friday in

credible scenes of celebration,

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families, pensioners, children

brought to the street wrapped in the

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flag of independence. To date on it

is the turn of Catalans who want

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unity who will be wearing their

flag, we have seen them crossing

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behind me as they gather in the main

square, we expect over 100,000

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people here today. Both sides asking

pretty much the same question, how

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will, or will indeed, the Spanish

Government force out the man who is

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technically no longer president,

Carles Puigdemont, but who will not

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go? He spoke yesterday

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about democratic and resisting what

will happen if him, along with 140

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officials, are moved out. I think

today we will see movement on the

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streets, the battle of the flags.

Tomorrow potentially the flash point

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in the government office, does

Carles Puigdemont try to go to work?

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It so, what does the Spanish

Government do about it?

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Heathrow Airport says

it is investigating how details

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of its security procedures

were found lying in

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the street in west London.

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The Sunday Mirror says

the information was on a memory

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stick, and had not been encrypted.

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It contained information

concerning the Queen,

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as well as maps showing CCTV cameras

and a network of tunnels

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and escape shafts, linked

to the Heathrow Express train line.

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Parents will no longer be able

to use a legal loophole to avoid

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paying child maintenance,

under new rules to be

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introduced within months.

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The Department for Work and Pensions

says it hope the changes will lead

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to hundreds of thousands of pounds

in additional child

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maintenance being collected

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The First Minister of Scotland,

Nicola Sturgeon, is to apologise

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on behalf of her Government

to all men convicted of sexual

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offences which involved other men

and have since been abolished.

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She'll make her statement next week

when the Scottish Government sets

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out new legislation to grant

automatic pardons

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to those affected.

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That's all from me.

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The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

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Back to you, Andrew.

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Thank you.

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Now to the papers.

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No single story dominating today,

the Sunday Times has a story about

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prisoners getting the vote in a

change of human rights legislation,

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and the sex pest story, they focus

on BBCi women, Michelle Hussain

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wakes up to find itself on the front

page of The Times and has tweeted

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this story is not accurate so far as

it concerns her. The Sunday

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Telegraph has a story about

hospitals failing to tackle a safety

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crisis, the Observer has gone for

Brexit, the only paper to do that

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today. Theresa May has warned the UK

to be ready for no deal. Spain on a

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knife edge, a genuinely dangerous

situation, and the Mail On Sunday

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has gone for the Westminster sex

story. Westminster sent -- minister

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said his PA to buy sex toys, not too

much gory detail, so don't panic.

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Owen Jones, let's carry on with that

story, inside the Sunday Times, a

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big piece about what is going on in

Westminster.

I think this is

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potentially very scandalous, reports

of two senior Cabinet ministers

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named by female researchers as being

"sex pests", the Prime Minister

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being updated on this but the whips,

and this is serious, treating it

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apparently as a bit of a laugh. A

joke yesterday about Harvey

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Weinstein and the sexual abuse and

rape of women. I think a number of

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things have to happen here, firstly

women need to be encouraged to be

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able to come forward and be

supported and believed, action needs

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to be taken about these Cabinet

ministers, but a critical question

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is, is Theresa May herself involved

in a cover-up of sexual harassment

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and abuse by her own ministers?

That

has to be made abundantly clear. You

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put all of this on the Conservatives

but there are stories about the

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Labour Party as well.

Absolutely,

1.4 million women face domestic

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violence EJ, 400,000 sexually

assaulted, 90,000 raped, the vast

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majority of cases have no justice,

whether it be the Labour Party or

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Conservative Party, any party, any

institution, women need to be

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supported and believed. The issue

here is about this briefing where

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whips apparently are treating it as

a joke and Theresa May is not taking

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action.

I think a lot of people

watching, Isabel Oakeshott, will be

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asking the question, how serious is

this? Some suggest Theresa May could

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lose three ministers over this and

be forced into a cabinet reshuffle.

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We need to keep a perspective on

this, the way Westminster is

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depicted in the papers today, you

imagine corridors full of marauding

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sex pest, the whole place like a

Berlin sex dungeon. I have worked at

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Westminster for over a decade, I

simply do not recognise the way that

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the corridors of power are being

portrayed here. Of course there are

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a few bad elements, I'm sure we have

all come across them, but I think

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the reporting of this is rather

hysterical and I do actually

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disagree with you, Owen, about the

comments by Michael Gove. Yes they

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were tasteless, but for everybody to

be so outraged over what was a

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rather clumsy comment, I just think

there are so many more things to be

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outraged about.

Obviously you can

talk about a hierarchy of outrage,

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there are many other things you

could go on forever with that logic,

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but the issue is many girls and

women, and I know many myself, do

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not feel able to come forward, do

not feel bullied, and when a Cabinet

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minister makes a joke about sexual

harassment, abuse and rape, in the

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case of Harvey Weinstein, it makes

it harder for people to come forward

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and it encourages a culture amongst

men, and men need to take

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responsibility to treat sexual abuse

and harassment as a bit of a joke, a

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bit of a laugh, lighten up everyone,

that is an issue that we have do

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address.

I don't for a minute

believe Theresa May or her whips

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will be taking this as a bit of a

laugh.

That is what the Sunday Times

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suggests.

If there is a possibility

of Cabinet ministers losing their

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jobs, that is not a laughing

situation.

You have been inside this

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culture for a long time, as had the

Sunday Times' deputy editor, she has

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written a piece.

Sarah Baxter has

written a piece in which she points

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out that, she is sort of slightly

coming at it from the same angle as

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I am, saying there is a world of

difference between a rape allegation

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or a really serious assault

allegation and the kind of rather

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clumsy flirting, rather rubbish, s

that I think a lot of people are

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talking about here. It is not

pleasant but it was ever thus, there

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are 14,000 pass-holders at

Westminster, show me any other

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workplace with that many people

where there are not some people who

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make rather rubbish comments.

Jeremy

Corbyn made a powerful intervention

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yesterday when he called for

victims, survivors of sexual

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harassment, abuse or worse, to come

forward. You would yourself

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encourage women who have been

sexually harassed or assaulted to

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come forward and put those

allegations forward, surely?

John

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Mann, in the House of Commons, has

suggested there should be some kind

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of tsar whose job it is to receive

allegations.

There was some pushback

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on that, which says something

slightly worrying. I think we should

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demand and expect a higher standard

from our elected representatives.

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Partly I'm saying, show me another

workplace... Actually, MPs have to

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be better than other people.

What

does it say about our democratic

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culture that every time there is

probably call for a tsar?

The

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problem with the House of Commons is

the nature of the employment,

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basically MPs are effectively

self-employed, there is not a human

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resources Department, it is

difficult to know who you go to,

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there is a trade union, Unite

represents Parliamentary research

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is, but it is difficult for them to

come forward and what MPs exploit in

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these cases is, this could be

detrimental to your career if you

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come forward.

I would like to move

on to the other huge story, the

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Catalan crisis. You have an Observer

story?

Yes, a story about the

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massive polarisation of Catalan

society, I think it is about 50-50

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at the moment being leaving, but the

vast amount of responsibility for

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the situation lies with the Spanish

government, there was reprimanded

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years ago Catalonia that enshrined

them as a nation, gave the language

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special protected status, the ruling

People's party stripped those away

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and, in attempt to deflect from

corruption scandals in the game,

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they ratcheted up attacks on

so-called separatists, and that has

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led to the attacks on the democratic

norms in Catalonia and assaulting

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voters as we saw the other week.

Your 50-50 statistic is interesting,

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I'm not sure where it comes from...

From polls.

Imagine the Scottish

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Government unilaterally declared

independence on the basis of an

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unconstitutional vote which

attracted a mere 43% turnout. That

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is nothing, we would be rightly

outraged about this. The Spanish

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Government has spectacularly

mishandled this, they have turned it

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into an unnecessary crisis.

The

differences, I did praise David

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Cameron very often, but the

Government here allowed Scotland to

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have a referendum to democratically

decided own future.

And that defused

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the situation, Madrid has not

handled this well.

They refused to

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allow them... I don't support

Catalan independence, as much as it

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matters, but they are being denied

the right to determine their future.

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In Cuba and Scotland, they were

allowed to decide.

Part of the

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problem I think is the Spanish

constitution, almost too clear on

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this, it has not given Mariano Rajoy

much movement for manoeuvre.

It was

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passed in the death of Franco and

was done to stop Civil War kicking

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off, that is why it is a hard line.

We don't have a huge amount of time,

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I want to move onto some other

stories. An intriguing story in the

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Mail on Sunday, that Amber Rudd, on

one wing of the party when it comes

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to Europe, Boris Johnson very much

on another, have come to some kind

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of arrangement?

This suggestion that

Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary,

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whose star has very much risen in

recent months, might team up with

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Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary

whose star has somewhat fallen, to

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make a kind of dream team in the

event of Theresa May falling on her

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sword, all being ousted.

So before

jumping in, Amber Rudd has been so

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rude about Boris Johnson in the past

-- sorry for jumping in.

Absolutely,

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she said she would not want to be in

the same car as Boris at the end of

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a night out! I don't entirely buy

into this, knowing the personalities

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and characters of both politicians.

I think it would be a very

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attractive ticket for voters, but

the problem is it would fall down

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almost instantly.

It just wouldn't

work?

I don't think Amber Rudd would

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put up with Boris' nonsense for more

than a few days, it might be another

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Michael Gove situation where she

pulled the plug at the last minute.

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The fact he is Foreign Secretary is

almost an international laughing

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stock, he has a history of bigoted

remarks, his manoeuvring on Brexit

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was for his own political career.

Onto the iPad with which you have

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been furnished...

So, yes, this is

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday marking 50

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years since abortion was

decriminalised, he has continued to

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fight for women's rights to choose

here and around the world. This

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point about giving women the right

to choose, it is an act of terrible

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violence to force women to have

children against their will. We know

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in countries where abortion is

banned, women do not have the right

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to choose, there is still demand for

abortion but it is unsafe and

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women's lives are put at risk and

that is why safe abortion is so

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important.

If it virtue signalling

to say, we must remember this? There

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is not a proposal here?

It was a

landmark, he is talking about

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Labour's record, Labour have a good

record of championing women's

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rights, that was a critical

milestone, and there is a danger

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that in America and here culture

warriors want to take away the right

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to choose...

You talk about an act

of terrible violence to force women

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to have babies they don't want, at

act of terrible violence is a late

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abortion. They are obscene and a lot

of people in this country feel

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really strongly about that. I think

what is

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interesting about the whole 50 year

anniversary thing is the extent to

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which science has come on, and

medicine, in those 50 years, and our

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ability to save premature babies,

neonatal care has improved

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dramatically so I would love to see

a debate about reducing the time

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limit on abortion, but it is very

difficult for politicians to do

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this.

I will encourage you to pick

up on another health story.

An

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unusual one, Owen and ICI to write

on this. Theresa May picking up on

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the pressure from voters over

putting more resources into mental

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Health Services, a real problem here

with the cash-strapped NHS, mental

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health Services so often don't get

the resources they need.

I hope you

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hammid Jeremy Hunt on his atrocious

record as Health Secretary, the

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longest squeeze in NHS funding since

its foundation and even though

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parity of esteem was promised for

physical and mental health, cuts to

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Mental Health Services ended up 20%

worse than for the rest of the NHS,

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people forced to wait months for

treatment, often when they subside,

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bumped around the country, bed is

not available, there is lots of good

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talk about mental health, and that

is important, but the action is not

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there.

I detect an intriguing

considerable moment has not quite

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crystallised as expected! Thank you

both very much.

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So we've just been

talking about Catalonia.

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We all understand that this is now

a confrontation between Madrid

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and the Northern separatists.

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But what can be difficult

to remember is just why

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feelings run so deep.

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This goes back to the 1930s -

many people will remember

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George Orwell's Homage To Catalonia.

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He was describing his time

fighting for anarchists

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in the Spanish civil war.

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And I'm joined now by one of this

country's prime historians

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of that war, Antony Beevor.

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Can we start off about why the

Catalans feel separate?

They did

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have their own country and empire

back in medieval times and it was

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only really from 1716, after the war

Spanish accession and the great

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siege of Barcelona, but they were

fully brought under the control of

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Madrid. And it was the first ball

going king, Philip V, who brought

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this to pass, and this is why

they're very reluctant to accept the

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monarchy.

So they were effectively

invaded and grabbed. In modern

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times, of course, they were mostly

on the Republican side in the

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Spanish civil war, and most people

who go to Barcelona now think it is

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a very lovely, sun-kissed place that

they should remember what it was

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like during the Spanish civil war,

when it was the epicentre?

Well, it

0:18:070:18:13

was and Franco and his generals

thought that they would win

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Barcelona easily. In fact the most

desperate fighting took place in

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July 1936, when the general stride

to take over, and they were defeated

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basically by the Alick -ists, but

also by the semi Trotskyists who

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George Orwell was fighting with.

Absolutely. So, a lot of fighting.

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And these divisions go deep into

Catalan society to which side were

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weak on in the war? I should mention

that in Madrid Mr Rajoy came from a

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pro-Franco family, for instance.

Whereas Mr Puigdemont was on the

0:18:590:19:02

other side, so these are still deep

divisions in Catalonia?

Well, they

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are deep throughout Spain, really.

But for the Catalans, I think the

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most appalling crime of all was the

way that the Gestapo handed over the

0:19:130:19:20

president of the Generalitat to

Franco and he was then exit you did

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in 1940.

We think of fascist leaders

as being 1940s characters, but

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actually in Spain it goes right up

to the nineteen seventies. After he

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wins the civil war, Franco really

represses Catalan autonomy?

Yes, and

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for other regions as well. That's

why it was important after the death

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of Franco in the constitution of

1978 for there to be a certain

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reassurance about the unity of

Spain.

Absolutely. And what are your

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reflections, you very, very well, on

what is happening right now, and the

0:20:080:20:11

agency with its the Catalans seem to

be demanding independence?

What one

0:20:110:20:17

is seeing to a degree is that the

urgency is prompted by the fact that

0:20:170:20:21

they are losing support for

independence. The latest poll shows

0:20:210:20:25

that actually it is 55% against and

only 41% or 42% in favour of

0:20:250:20:31

independence. They know they're

losing control and this is why there

0:20:310:20:35

is much more of a push over recent

days.

I was reading another

0:20:350:20:38

historian, I would say the name,

suggesting in yesterday's papers

0:20:380:20:43

that Spain might be on the brink of

actual violence, the beginning of a

0:20:430:20:47

Yugoslav-style break-up?

I don't

think so, I don't think we will see

0:20:470:20:52

a Catalan version of Eta arising or

anything like that. People say, are

0:20:520:21:02

we facing another Spanish civil war?

The conditions are totally separate.

0:21:020:21:08

I think Spain is a very mature

democracy and I think they probably

0:21:080:21:12

handle things as best they can in

the circumstances.

And of course

0:21:120:21:16

Catalonia is a very wealthy part of

Spain, Abel have a lot to lose?

In

0:21:160:21:19

deed. The Northern League in Italy

and other independence movements

0:21:190:21:25

were much more interested in paying

less taxes. I think on the whole

0:21:250:21:28

many of the historical arguments

tended to be used, if you like, as

0:21:280:21:35

emotional support to basically what

are quite self-centred reasons for

0:21:350:21:37

independence.

So we are in a kind of

read the book, don't look at the

0:21:370:21:43

crystal ball moment. What would you

expect for the next few moves?

I

0:21:430:21:47

think we're going to see more or

less a collapse, a split within the

0:21:470:21:51

Catalan movement. The extreme

activist side, which was already

0:21:510:22:00

holding Mr Puigdemont a little bit

hostage, I think that will be

0:22:000:22:06

falling back and we will see a

fragmentation. The very fact that

0:22:060:22:10

you've got 55% supporting the

central government and its call for

0:22:100:22:15

elections means that I think we're

going to see a calming of the

0:22:150:22:19

situation, rather than a threat of

another civil war, far from it.

0:22:190:22:24

Thank you very much very much indeed

for coming in. And so for the

0:22:240:22:28

weather. I'm delighted to say, it is

about to get a bit colder. About

0:22:280:22:35

time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it

is only

0:22:350:22:39

time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it

is only going to be a brief short,

0:22:390:22:42

sharp shock, but, yes. Temperatures

have been 8 degrees down on where

0:22:420:22:48

they were yesterday in Scotland. A

different story further south and

0:22:480:22:52

west, though. This has been sitting

across Wales and the Midlands, East

0:22:520:22:59

Anglia and the south-east of England

so far this morning, this weather

0:22:590:23:02

front. And behind it, some colder

air coming down from the Arctic. You

0:23:020:23:08

will notice that the cold air never

really gets down into the extreme

0:23:080:23:11

south-west today. But we will see

the cloud breaking up and sunny

0:23:110:23:16

spells coming through. Generally

speaking, it's a quiet day. The

0:23:160:23:21

northerly wind is driving in showers

along the North Sea coast driver.

0:23:210:23:26

Temperatures disappointing in

Scotland. The winds will continue to

0:23:260:23:35

be very large indeed, clear skies

overnight, as temperatures fall

0:23:350:23:38

away. First thing in the morning

it's going to be on the chilly site.

0:23:380:23:45

In rural spots we could see

temperatures just below freezing, so

0:23:450:23:49

our first widespread frost of the

season. Andrew, you're quite right,

0:23:490:23:55

but it's not going to last.

Horrible, mushy, grey, mild weather!

0:23:550:24:05

I hate it!

0:24:050:24:10

Speaking yesterday the leader

of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn,

0:24:100:24:12

responded to stories of sexual abuse

and the disgrace of a Labour MP,

0:24:120:24:16

Jared O'Mara, by denouncing

"a warped and degrading culture that

0:24:160:24:19

exists and thrives in the corridors

of power, including Westminster".

0:24:190:24:21

Diane Abbott, now the Shadow Home

Secretary, has lived inside that

0:24:210:24:24

culture for three decades,

and she joins me now.

0:24:240:24:27

You have been there for a long time

- do you recognise that as a warped

0:24:270:24:33

and dangerous culture?

Yes, and if

anything it was worse when I first

0:24:330:24:36

became an MP. You would remember,

you were there. You would have

0:24:360:24:40

micro-sexual aggression, so women

would get up in the chamber and the

0:24:400:24:44

Tories opposite would do this

gesture like they were weighing

0:24:440:24:49

their breasts. There was harassment,

there were jokes. Party to do with

0:24:490:24:53

the fact that it was a very male

environment, just 20 women out of

0:24:530:24:57

650 MPs when I went there. Hartley

to do with all of these men away

0:24:570:25:03

from home. Party to do with the fact

that there were eight bars and very

0:25:030:25:06

long hours and the bars were open

for as long as they were sitting.

0:25:060:25:10

Party due to the notion that what

happens in Westminster stays in

0:25:100:25:14

westerns to. It was worse. It is a

little better now but there is a

0:25:140:25:18

long way to go.

Did you yourself

face harassment?

I have to say, when

0:25:180:25:24

I was a new MP, I had a little boy,

I was a single mother, I didn't have

0:25:240:25:31

time to hang around bars. But I

heard from colleagues and I saw some

0:25:310:25:35

of the gestures and noises that were

made in the chamber. Clare Short,

0:25:350:25:40

who was a colleague at that time,

she tries to have a campaign against

0:25:400:25:46

naked women in the Sun, and the

abuse she got from other MPs...

0:25:460:25:52

People would be pulled now if that

kind of thing happened.

Fast forward

0:25:520:25:57

to now and it is still about men in

power and women relatively powerless

0:25:570:26:01

in many cases, researchers and so

forth. There is now a WhatsApp group

0:26:010:26:05

and women are talking to each other.

I don't know if you are aware of

0:26:050:26:09

that, but there is a different

atmosphere?

The world has moved on.

0:26:090:26:13

When I first went into Parliament,

so many of those men had been to all

0:26:130:26:17

boy boarding schools and had really

archaic attitudes towards women.

0:26:170:26:25

Middle-aged women, actually, are

less likely now than middle-aged men

0:26:250:26:28

to believe that young researchers

are irresistibly sexually attracted

0:26:280:26:34

to them. So the fact that we have

women MPs helps with that. We have

0:26:340:26:38

seen problems with our Labour

colleague who had to be suspended

0:26:380:26:44

for quite unacceptable language.

We

read in the Times about the

0:26:440:26:49

allegations, the question is, what

needs to change? Are you attracted

0:26:490:26:54

by the idea which I think John Mann

has talked about, some kind of

0:26:540:26:58

central figure in Westminster who is

there to receive those allegations

0:26:580:27:02

and investigate them privately?

Well, just this July, the Labour

0:27:020:27:07

Party has changed its systems. We're

going to be setting out where the

0:27:070:27:11

accusations were made, and you will

be able to make them anonymously,

0:27:110:27:14

and we're going to have special

sexual harassment panels and a

0:27:140:27:18

special process for dealing with it.

And I think all parties could learn

0:27:180:27:21

from that. But this is not a problem

for any particular party or fraction

0:27:210:27:27

of a party, it runs right across

Parliament.

That said, Jared O'Mara,

0:27:270:27:32

when did the Labour Party know about

what he said?

Well, when I heard

0:27:320:27:35

about it was last Monday. He came

and apologised and a lot of people

0:27:350:27:44

took his apology quite seriously and

then on Tuesday we had more

0:27:440:27:47

information and he was suspended and

the Labour Party is looking at it.

0:27:470:27:51

There was a text which suggested the

Labour Party was told this month ago

0:27:510:27:54

and didn't do anything?

I don't know

anything about that. The party knew

0:27:540:27:59

about it as far as I know, when the

allegations became public, last

0:27:590:28:03

week. This is an internal party

issue.

We are not hearing any sense

0:28:030:28:08

to sit in judgment without knowing

the facts over anybody, but

0:28:080:28:11

nevertheless, if these kinds of

things were said by any Labour MP,

0:28:110:28:15

should they stay as an MP?

You're

talking about the language and the

0:28:150:28:19

tone?

Yes.

Yes. That language and

that town is not acceptable in 2017.

0:28:190:28:28

We have now moved on, and the Labour

Party is fairly clear that we're

0:28:280:28:33

going to be a party with zero

tolerance for sexual harassment.

Do

0:28:330:28:36

you think Jared O'Mara can stay as a

Labour MP?

I can't judge, because

0:28:360:28:42

I've not seen the evidence. What I

would say is that that language and

0:28:420:28:50

that tone is unacceptable. The party

has moved on. And you know, where

0:28:500:28:55

you have that sort of language and

that sort of harassment and sexual

0:28:550:29:00

micro-aggression, it demeans and

diminishes all women - that's why

0:29:000:29:05

it's important to take a strong

line.

I don't know if you heard

0:29:050:29:08

Michael Gove's comments, which have

been all over the press - do you

0:29:080:29:13

think it is an overreaction to those

comments?

I heard it and I didn't

0:29:130:29:17

think it was funny. You know,

particularly in Parliament, making

0:29:170:29:23

sexual harassment the joke is not...

We've got to realise that it's

0:29:230:29:29

demeaning for women and undermines

the institution.

What about somebody

0:29:290:29:33

else who is much closer to you, John

McDonnell, I think you were actually

0:29:330:29:37

at the meeting, and he said, why are

we sacking her? Why aren't we

0:29:370:29:45

lynching the...? I cannot use the

word on television.

I wasn't at that

0:29:450:29:51

meeting, but I believe he was

quoting from somebody else. But let

0:29:510:29:55

me repeat, it undermines the case

against sexual abuse and harassment

0:29:550:30:03

if we try and make it a problem of a

particular party or fraction.

I

0:30:030:30:08

absolutely accept that. I'm only

asking you because this is your bit

0:30:080:30:11

of the party and everybody has to

call people out on these kind of

0:30:110:30:17

things in their own institutions and

organisations. Jess Phillips, who is

0:30:170:30:22

chair of the women's PLP said, the

targets of this betrayal, we should

0:30:220:30:28

kill Thatcher, comment nominate

always seems to be the one that

0:30:280:30:32

these people are women -- the common

denominator?

0:30:320:30:42

Sexual abuse in the abuse of women

has been a problem for a very long

0:30:420:30:46

time.

Including the left as well as

the right?

Making this a party

0:30:460:30:52

political thing...

I just want you

to acknowledge that it affects your

0:30:520:30:57

part of politics as well as the

other.

One of the first things I

0:30:570:31:01

said was this is about Parliament as

a whole, not about any one party,

0:31:010:31:05

and I am sticking to that because

that is correct. Once you start to

0:31:050:31:09

make it a tit-for-tat,

finger-pointing, party faction of

0:31:090:31:13

thing, actually you undercut what

ought to be in move forward to

0:31:130:31:19

eliminate this type of talk from

Parliament as a whole.

Did you think

0:31:190:31:22

this is a moment when the actual

culture is changing and that meant,

0:31:220:31:26

across Parliament, the BBC, anywhere

else, are now going to look at what

0:31:260:31:30

is on the front pages and change

their behaviour?

I hope so, because

0:31:300:31:35

although Parliament has long had

this toxic climate as Jeremy

0:31:350:31:39

referred to yesterday, I don't

believe broadcasters all newspapers

0:31:390:31:42

are any better and I do hope that in

the aftermath of the revelations

0:31:420:31:47

about Harvey Weinstein and the film

industry, modelling, that old male

0:31:470:31:53

dominated professions will look at

the way women are treated,

0:31:530:31:57

disrespected, and spoken about, and

we can see a change in attitudes.

We

0:31:570:32:01

have not spoken here since the

general election campaign. During

0:32:010:32:05

that campaign you were singled out

and treated very, very aggressively

0:32:050:32:09

by some parts of the media and

indeed other politicians, Theresa

0:32:090:32:13

May kept using your name, Diane

Abbott, Diane Abbott, Diane Abbott,

0:32:130:32:17

again and again and again. Do you

think you were unfairly singled out

0:32:170:32:21

or victimised during the campaign?

I

know I was singled out early in the

0:32:210:32:26

campaign by a colleague fighting in

a constituency who said there were

0:32:260:32:31

lorries coming around her

constituency...

Why do you think

0:32:310:32:36

that was?

Also the tour we spent a

lot of money on targeted Facebook

0:32:360:32:40

advertising about me, I think they

spent more money on me than anybody

0:32:400:32:44

else.

Do you think it was about the

colour of your skin?

You would have

0:32:440:32:49

to ask them. There is no question

that of all the Labour front bench I

0:32:490:32:54

was singled out. The Daily Mail had

I think 12 pages on me, Jeremy said

0:32:540:33:00

they should do 24 pages next time to

get more votes.

Did you ever think I

0:33:000:33:08

could put up with this any longer, I

will leave public life?

It is

0:33:080:33:12

difficult but I have fantastic

support from my friends and family

0:33:120:33:15

and people in the constituency,

people are still very supportive

0:33:150:33:19

now. Fortunately British people are

better than the tabloid press and

0:33:190:33:22

some of their politicians.

We

haven't even mentioned Brexit yet,

0:33:220:33:26

strange days! You have been very,

very clear that abolishing free

0:33:260:33:32

movement is connected in your future

anti-immigrant racism, and yet when

0:33:320:33:38

we leave the EU, which we will

almost certainly do in March 2019,

0:33:380:33:42

you may well be the person who ends

free movement. A lot of people who

0:33:420:33:47

voted for Brexit don't still

understand what the Labour Party's

0:33:470:33:50

position is going to be on free

movement and migration after we have

0:33:500:33:54

left the EU.

First of all, lots of

perfectly respectable reasons to

0:33:540:33:58

vote for Brexit, Tony Benn would

have voted for Brexit, had he been

0:33:580:34:03

alive, he always argued for coming

out of the European Union. But there

0:34:030:34:09

is an anti-immigrant undercurrent,

the Nigel Farage narrative, which

0:34:090:34:15

was not something which Tony Benn

would have had any time for. When we

0:34:150:34:19

leave the single market, free

movement falls because free movement

0:34:190:34:24

is part of being in the single

market.

So if you are a voter who

0:34:240:34:30

decided to vote for Brexit because

they wanted fewer people coming here

0:34:300:34:33

from the EU, will that happen under

a Labour Government?

Under a Labour

0:34:330:34:39

Government, we will have fair rules,

managed migration, we will deal with

0:34:390:34:45

some of these predatory employers

using not just European Union

0:34:450:34:51

immigrants but immigrants from other

parts of the world to undercut

0:34:510:34:54

British workers, we will deal with

that and we have spoken about the

0:34:540:34:57

things we will do.

To put it

brutally and coarsely, lots of

0:34:570:35:01

people out there would want fewer

Polish people, French people,

0:35:010:35:05

Spanish people, arriving here and

still don't know whether that would

0:35:050:35:07

be the case under Labour.

People

want fair rules and managed

0:35:070:35:12

migration, but if they also want

eight jobs Brexit and a Brexit which

0:35:120:35:17

does not harm the economy, they

should be voting Labour.

One final

0:35:170:35:23

question, in this morning's papers

you have seen a report that

0:35:230:35:26

prisoners will get the vote in some

circumstances, what is the Labour

0:35:260:35:31

position on that?

The European Court

of Human Rights has said. Years that

0:35:310:35:34

we cannot stop all prisoners having

the vote, and the Labour Party

0:35:340:35:39

believes that we should indeed, in

the end, we have to support the

0:35:390:35:46

position of the European Court of

Human Rights. So prisoners should

0:35:460:35:49

have the boat? It is not whether

they should have the vote but

0:35:490:35:53

whether we should abide by the

European Court of Human Rights, and

0:35:530:35:56

I think abiding by the European

Court of Human Rights, whether we

0:35:560:35:59

are in the EU will not, abiding by

those human rights issues is very

0:35:590:36:03

much a tenet of the type of

socialism I believe in.

One final

0:36:030:36:07

question, do you think a Labour

Government would or should recognise

0:36:070:36:11

the Catalans as an independent

state? A nice easy one for you!

It

0:36:110:36:18

is a very difficult and tragic

situation. We would want to see it

0:36:180:36:23

resolved by negotiation and we would

want to see it resolved under the

0:36:230:36:30

laws and legislation of Spain.

The

Government here has been clear there

0:36:300:36:34

would not recognise an independent

Catalonia, I wonder if the Labour

0:36:340:36:37

Party position is the same?

We are

clear this has to be resolved by

0:36:370:36:41

negotiation. The pictures that we

saw of what happened when the

0:36:410:36:44

Catalans tried to have a referendum,

of violence, the police, they were

0:36:440:36:50

dreadful, no one wants to see those

in a fellow European country.

All of

0:36:500:36:54

this is true but not quite an answer

to my question.

We believe that the

0:36:540:36:58

situation should be resolved by

negotiation, it is not for us to cut

0:36:580:37:02

across the laws and constitution is

of another country.

Diane Abbott,

0:37:020:37:06

thank you very much indeed for

talking to us.

0:37:060:37:09

Coming up later this morning

on the Sunday Politics,

0:37:090:37:11

Sarah Smith talks to the chair

of the Brexit committee,

0:37:110:37:13

Hilary Benn, and former

Cabinet Minister Theresa Villiers

0:37:130:37:15

on airport expansion.

0:37:150:37:16

That's the Sunday Politics at 11am.

0:37:160:37:20

Theresa May says that,

for far too long, mental health has

0:37:200:37:23

been disregarded compared

to physical health in this country,

0:37:230:37:25

and things need to change.

0:37:250:37:28

She's promising to defeat

the stigma of mental illness.

0:37:280:37:30

But what, over the last seven years,

is the actual Tory record on this?

0:37:300:37:34

The Health Secretary,

Jeremy Hunt, is with me.

0:37:340:37:40

Welcome, Mr Hunt. Can I ask you, on

your watch, has provision for mental

0:37:400:37:44

health got better or worse?

It has

got better but needs to get a lot

0:37:440:37:48

better still. We are treating now

1400 more people every day, seeing a

0:37:480:37:54

real increase in resources hitting

the front line, but when we made

0:37:540:37:59

that historic change in the law in

2012 when we said that we wanted to

0:37:590:38:04

end the terrible injustice of the

fact that if you break a leg you get

0:38:040:38:08

treated immediately in A&E but if

you have a mental health crisis you

0:38:080:38:11

might have to wait weeks or months

to be seen, to change that is going

0:38:110:38:16

to take a bit of time and we are

making progress on the right

0:38:160:38:20

direction but there is a lot more to

do.

You say it is getting better.

0:38:200:38:24

For a young person who may have an

anxiety disorder, depression, an

0:38:240:38:28

eating disorder or whatever, how

long should they have to wait before

0:38:280:38:31

they are seen by the NHS?

We have

said for an eating disorder we have

0:38:310:38:35

introduced a waiting time standard,

I think we are the first country in

0:38:350:38:40

the world to do that for eating

disorders, we have said if it is an

0:38:400:38:43

emergency they should be seen the

same week but you should certainly

0:38:430:38:46

be seen within four weeks. We are

setting up a series of eating

0:38:460:38:50

disorder units across the country...

Psychosis, depression?

On psychosis,

0:38:500:38:57

again, we are the first country in

the world to set up a waiting time

0:38:570:39:00

standard for your first incident of

psychosis but in order to deliver

0:39:000:39:04

that we have to train up staff,

trained psychiatrist, mental health

0:39:040:39:08

nurses, that is why I announced in

July and additional 21,000 posts

0:39:080:39:14

that we will be recruiting for in

the NHS in order to deliver those.

0:39:140:39:18

The quality care commission did a

study on this and found some young

0:39:180:39:22

people were waiting 18 months for

any kind of treatment?

That is

0:39:220:39:26

totally unacceptable and that is why

a couple of years ago we put

0:39:260:39:29

together a big report, authored by

Paul Farmer, the chief executive of

0:39:290:39:35

Mind, as to how we make progress

towards this parity of esteem, and

0:39:350:39:39

what we said was that, by 2020, 21,

we would aim to treat 1 million more

0:39:390:39:45

people every year, £1 billion extra

resources into mental health, but

0:39:450:39:49

that it would take some time to get

there because of the training of new

0:39:490:39:53

staff, expansion of capacity that we

need. We are, as I say, making good

0:39:530:39:58

progress in delivering that.

You

make it all sound very sunny but The

0:39:580:40:03

Children's Society said 30,000

children were turned away in a year,

0:40:030:40:07

getting no help at all from the NHS,

and if we look at the resources

0:40:070:40:11

problem, it comes down to resources,

when you came to power can you

0:40:110:40:16

remember how many mental health

nurses there were?

I think you are

0:40:160:40:18

going to tell me the number has gone

down.

By 5000, a lot.

Let me explain

0:40:180:40:24

why. Over the last five years we

have been dealing with the terrible

0:40:240:40:28

problems that we had in Mid-Staffs

and what that meant what we needed

0:40:280:40:32

to get more nurses into hospital

wards. Over that period we had

0:40:320:40:36

11,000 more nurses in the NHS as a

whole but they have tended to go

0:40:360:40:41

into hospitals where we had an

urgent problem to deal with. Overall

0:40:410:40:44

in terms of mental health staff,

those working in mental health

0:40:440:40:47

trust, we have got more than seven

years ago so we are expanding the

0:40:470:40:52

numbers...

Was it a mistake to take

out 5000 mental health nurses?

It

0:40:520:41:00

was not a conscious decision, we had

a crisis and realised a number of

0:41:000:41:04

hospitals across the country were

unsafe so we had a big effort to

0:41:040:41:07

make them safe and I think that has

borne fruit. But the unintended

0:41:070:41:13

consequence was pressure on mental

health nursing and the overall

0:41:130:41:15

lesson was we don't have enough

nurses and that is why at the

0:41:150:41:18

Conservative party conference a few

weeks ago I announced a 25% increase

0:41:180:41:22

in the number of nurse training

places, because the fact is we need

0:41:220:41:26

more nurses.

Given that you could

the nurses in the first place, it

0:41:260:41:32

does seem as if Jeremy Hunt has

decided to clear up the mess made by

0:41:320:41:36

Jeremy Hunt.

With respect, we have

11,000 more nurses now in the NHS

0:41:360:41:40

than when I became health

secretaries of the one thing you

0:41:400:41:43

cannot say is that I have not

prioritised the importance of nurses

0:41:430:41:46

in delivering safe care. We also

have more people working in mental

0:41:460:41:50

health. There has been a specific

issue on mental health nursing but

0:41:500:41:54

we are sorting that out.

What about

beds, because it is more or less the

0:41:540:42:03

same story, 7500 put in mental

health beds, for instance.

There are

0:42:030:42:05

two things going on, the first is

that we know that it is much better,

0:42:050:42:11

if you can, to treat someone with

severe mental health problems in the

0:42:110:42:14

community where they are properly

looked after, often by NHS staff,

0:42:140:42:18

than it is in what we used to have,

the old asylums, so there is a trend

0:42:180:42:23

away from hospital care.

Yet there

are people who need hospital care,

0:42:230:42:28

June the 1st last year there was a

moment in London when, if you were a

0:42:280:42:32

young person with a mental health

problem, there was not a single

0:42:320:42:35

hospital bed available for you in

London, the capital of one of the

0:42:350:42:39

world -- the capital, and one of the

world's greatest cities. That is

0:42:390:42:44

scandal. We have a problem with what

is called the tier four bed and we

0:42:440:42:51

have increased those in response to

those issues.

What is most

0:42:510:42:55

unacceptable is if you are a young

person and need to be an NHS

0:42:550:43:01

inpatient in a mental health

organisation, to have to go to the

0:43:010:43:04

other side of the country, because

what matters in terms of your

0:43:040:43:07

recovery is that you can be visited

by parents or friends...

That is

0:43:070:43:10

happening again and again because of

the lack of nurses and beds on your

0:43:100:43:14

watch.

Andrew, I think you are

mis-characterising what has happened

0:43:140:43:18

because there is more money, more

people working in mental health, we

0:43:180:43:22

are increasing the number of beds

particularly for younger people, but

0:43:220:43:26

Rome wasn't built in a day and if we

are going to achieve Theresa May's

0:43:260:43:31

ambition of full parity of esteem

between mental and physical help

0:43:310:43:34

then we are going to need to train

up many, many more people to deliver

0:43:340:43:37

that. That is what we are doing, and

we are absolutely determined to end

0:43:370:43:42

this injustice that we have at the

moment.

Seven years to end this

0:43:420:43:47

injustice, you are entering your

sixth year as Health Secretary,

0:43:470:43:51

which makes you the third longest in

the post since neither them, and I

0:43:510:43:56

can't under who else...

Norman

Fowler.

One of the longest serving

0:43:560:44:03

Health Secretary. Do not recognise

that given the cuts in bed and

0:44:030:44:07

nurses over time, part of the crisis

has happened on your watch and is a

0:44:070:44:10

result of the cuts made at the

beginning of your time?

Andrew, you

0:44:100:44:14

are only painting a limited picture.

What has actually happened on my

0:44:140:44:18

watch is the biggest expansion of

mental health provision in Europe.

0:44:180:44:22

Other countries are looking at what

we are doing... Forgive me, if not

0:44:220:44:26

the bed and nurses, where is the

expansion taking place?

For example,

0:44:260:44:33

treatment on anxiety and depression,

what we are doing now is considered

0:44:330:44:36

world leading, being copied by the

Swedes, who are looking to import

0:44:360:44:39

what we are doing on psychological

therapy into Stockholm. Overall, we

0:44:390:44:43

are treating, I am saying this for

the second time because I don't

0:44:430:44:47

think it registered, 1400 more

people every day, there is a big

0:44:470:44:51

expansion, 3000 more people working

in talking therapies...

People

0:44:510:44:55

outside saying so many different

things.

0:44:550:45:06

The president of the family board,

I'm sure you will remember the case

0:45:120:45:15

of a 17-year-old girl who was a

recital and about to be released and

0:45:150:45:18

he condemned the disgraceful and

utterly shaming black of proper

0:45:180:45:20

provision in this country and he

said, we, the system, society and

0:45:200:45:22

the state will have blood on our

hands. Things then changed for that

0:45:220:45:25

girl but he took -- but it took a

High Court judge to say that

0:45:250:45:28

publicly and come to the Secretary

of State to get changes.

And he was

0:45:280:45:30

right to say that but that is why we

are changing. In the last year, for

0:45:300:45:34

example, we are spending over half

£1 billion more on mental health in

0:45:340:45:36

the NHS, at a time when, as you

know, NHS resources are very

0:45:360:45:40

constrained, but the reality is,

because we are proud to offer a

0:45:400:45:45

service that is free at the point of

use in the NHS, and rightly so,

0:45:450:45:50

there is huge untapped demand for

mental health provision and we know

0:45:500:45:54

now that you can, in many cases,

make a mental illness completely

0:45:540:45:59

better, and because people

understand that there are lots of

0:45:590:46:03

people who want NHS care, but it

will not be solved overnight and we

0:46:030:46:06

have to be honest with the British

people, our plan is 2020-21, we will

0:46:060:46:12

deliver the Paul Farmer plan and be

tweeting more people every year, we

0:46:120:46:16

are on track to do that but it will

not happen overnight, there is no

0:46:160:46:20

silver bullet, I'm afraid it takes

time.

0:46:200:46:32

You have been at Westminster for a

very long time and you have heard

0:46:320:46:37

all of the stories, what you think

about them?

These stories if they

0:46:370:46:44

are true are totally unacceptable.

The Cabinet Office will be

0:46:440:46:48

conducting an investigation as to

whether there has been a breach of

0:46:480:46:52

the ministerial code in this

particular case. The facts are

0:46:520:46:56

disputed, obviously. But there are

mums and dads who have daughters who

0:46:560:47:02

are politics students hoping to get

a job in Westminster. They must be

0:47:020:47:05

able to be confident that if they

get that job, their daughter will

0:47:050:47:07

not be subject to some of these

behaviours, so it's absolutely

0:47:070:47:11

essential that we sort this out.

Nobody wants trial by television,

0:47:110:47:14

but nonetheless the Mysterio code

covers this area, does it?

It does,

0:47:140:47:18

this area and many others. But I

think it is important, you were

0:47:180:47:23

having the same discussion with

Diane Abbott, and the other point to

0:47:230:47:26

make is that this is something which

covers behaviour by MPs of all

0:47:260:47:32

parties, and that's why the other

thing that's going to happen is that

0:47:320:47:36

today, Theresa May is going to write

to the Speaker to ask for his advice

0:47:360:47:40

as to how we change that culture. I

would agree with Diane Abbott, I

0:47:400:47:44

think things have got better in

recent years, but there's still a

0:47:440:47:48

long way to go.

Do you agree with

John Mann that there should be some

0:47:480:47:52

kind of miss entry character who

receives allegations of this nature,

0:47:520:47:55

logs into them in private, a place

that people can go?

Well, I think

0:47:550:48:02

there is merit in the idea of having

someone anonymously or you can talk

0:48:020:48:07

to if you're unhappy about the way

you've been treated. But I think

0:48:070:48:10

these things need to be looked at

probably by the Speaker, because

0:48:100:48:14

it's about the conduct of Parliament

has a whole.

Let's turn back to the

0:48:140:48:20

NHS. Normally in these interviews, I

have statistics and you have

0:48:200:48:23

statistics and we throw them at each

other! We've already done that! So,

0:48:230:48:29

let's do something slightly

different and ask you to listen to

0:48:290:48:34

the test any of a nurse who spoke to

Newsnight last week, and this is

0:48:340:48:37

what she said.

The way that things

have become in A&E over the last two

0:48:370:48:41

years, we're at breaking point, it

can't carry on. Queues on the

0:48:410:48:46

corridor and the situation that the

patients are in and that the

0:48:460:48:49

department is in, it's unsafe. We're

probably seeing about 100 patients

0:48:490:48:55

more per day than we were a year

ago. It just seems to be acceptable

0:48:550:48:59

to treat people on the corridor, and

it's not be defied, really, is it?

0:48:590:49:06

To see the NHS as it is now, erm, I

don't see it getting any better. In

0:49:060:49:13

my eyes, it's just going to get

worse.

Now, that's how it feels from

0:49:130:49:18

the perspective of one nurse in

Birmingham. What would you say to

0:49:180:49:21

that?

Well, I listen to that with a

great deal of sympathy, because I

0:49:210:49:26

think she speaks for a lot of people

who feel an enormous amount of

0:49:260:49:31

stress on the front line, our

hospitals have never been busier,

0:49:310:49:35

our NHS staff have never worked

harder. We have this enormous

0:49:350:49:39

pressure of an ageing population,

and there is no doubt that we are

0:49:390:49:43

going to need to find more money for

the NHS in the years ahead of us,

0:49:430:49:47

because we have a million more over

Max Evans fives coming down the

0:49:470:49:53

railway track in the next decade.

And what do we want? We want the NHS

0:49:530:49:56

to be the safest and best health

service anywhere in the world. As a

0:49:560:50:02

Conservative, I believe that good

public services are moral purpose of

0:50:020:50:08

a strong capitalist economy, that's

why we do it. And so what we need to

0:50:080:50:12

do as a government is to make sure

the NHS gets the resources it needs,

0:50:120:50:16

and that has been very difficult

because of the financial situation

0:50:160:50:19

the country is in. But over the last

few years we've started to seize

0:50:190:50:25

some increases, and we need to

address that nurse's concerns,

0:50:250:50:30

because what she wants is what I

want, which is to make sure we give

0:50:300:50:33

patients the very best care.

The

last time we spoke you said that it

0:50:330:50:38

was very clear that the NHS does

need more resources. You're just

0:50:380:50:43

about to lift the 1% cap on NHS pay,

which will delight a lot of people

0:50:430:50:48

working in the NHS - are they

actually going to get a pay

0:50:480:50:53

increase?

Well, we have the

independent pay review body which

0:50:530:50:56

looks at this, and it would be one

for me on how to give you a view as

0:50:560:51:00

to where I think that process will

end up, because I want to hear what

0:51:000:51:04

the independent experts say would be

a fair pay rise. But one of the

0:51:040:51:09

things which is behind the

frustration of that nurse and others

0:51:090:51:13

is that they have had pay restraint

for many, many years, and they want

0:51:130:51:17

to see some recognition of the very

hard work they do.

So, even a 3%

0:51:170:51:24

rise would not actually be a pay

rise for most people, given

0:51:240:51:27

inflation. But to give people a

sense, how much would a 3% rise cost

0:51:270:51:34

the NHS?

It would probably be £1

billion, so it's a serious amount of

0:51:340:51:39

it. The Chancellor has said that if

we can have a negotiation and look

0:51:390:51:45

at some of the ways that we can

improve productivity at the same

0:51:450:51:49

time condo he's willing to have a

discussion with me about finding

0:51:490:51:53

extra resources.

This is the crucial

question. You've got mental health,

0:51:530:51:59

many other things, and now the pay

pressure as well - are you going to

0:51:590:52:04

be able to marry this with the new

money from the Chancellor which

0:52:040:52:07

allows you to pay people more

without actually cutting back

0:52:070:52:10

elsewhere in hospitals?

Well, this

government is absolutely committed

0:52:100:52:14

to making our NHS the safest and

best health care system. We

0:52:140:52:19

recognise there's a lot of work to

do in mental health and many other

0:52:190:52:22

areas as well. I will be making a

very robust case for the NHS to get

0:52:220:52:26

the resources it needs, as I'm sure

other Cabinet ministers will be

0:52:260:52:30

doing for their departments. But

when it comes to money for the NHS,

0:52:300:52:35

every week we have avoidable death,

avoidable harm in the NHS. That is

0:52:350:52:40

nothing to do with resources, at

least not principally to do with

0:52:400:52:44

resources. If we're going to be the

best, we have to have a culture of

0:52:440:52:49

safety and quality which comes from

the inside, as well as the cheque

0:52:490:52:54

from the Chancellor. The two need to

go together. The CQC say that the

0:52:540:53:02

care is getting safer. The

Commonwealth Fund and the

0:53:020:53:06

independent think-tank say the NHS

is the best health care system in

0:53:060:53:09

the world. So, the final thing I

would say to that nurse is, yes, we

0:53:090:53:14

face enormous pressures, but we're

not the only country. Our NHS and

0:53:140:53:19

our values put us in a better place

to deal with those pressures than

0:53:190:53:23

many other countries.

Perhaps it is

because we ask the NHS to do so much

0:53:230:53:28

and we do relatively little

ourselves. There was an interesting

0:53:280:53:34

experiment in Hertfordshire, saying

to people that if they want

0:53:340:53:37

nonurgent operations, they can't

have it while they're still smoking.

0:53:370:53:41

They're going to Brecel lies them to

check that they have not been

0:53:410:53:44

smoking for six weeks before the

operation - do you think that kind

0:53:440:53:47

of thing is a good idea?

I do think

that we have to allow some local

0:53:470:53:54

discretion in these areas. There are

a number of operations where your

0:53:540:53:57

recovery is a lot quicker if you're

not a smoker. The thinking behind

0:53:570:54:02

these kind of scheme is that you

will have better surgical outcomes

0:54:020:54:05

if you do this... It is not

something I would suggest for the

0:54:050:54:10

whole NHS, we need to see if it

works in Hertfordshire.

It's more

0:54:100:54:13

the general philosophical question,

if you drink, if you smoke - these

0:54:130:54:19

things should be taken into account,

a kind of deal between you and the

0:54:190:54:23

NHS?

I think I believe in a taxpayer

funded system, where care is not

0:54:230:54:30

rushing and everybody pays their

taxes. But I also believe in

0:54:300:54:33

personal responsibility. And I think

we all have responsibility in terms

0:54:330:54:37

of the lifestyle that we lead, to

ourselves and also to our fellow

0:54:370:54:43

citizens, and also in terms of the

pressures that are being put on the

0:54:430:54:46

NHS. But I think British citizens

understand that, because the NHS

0:54:460:54:52

belongs to all of us, and we all

need to do our bit to make sure that

0:54:520:54:56

we don't exacerbate the pressures

which are very real.

There has been

0:54:560:55:00

quite a dramatic crop in the number

of nurses coming into the NHS from

0:55:000:55:03

the rest of the EU after the Brexit

vote - are you worried about that?

I

0:55:030:55:09

think, of course, Brexit brings a

number of concerns to the NHS. What

0:55:090:55:17

I always try to do is to reassure

the brilliant doctors and nurses

0:55:170:55:21

from the EU who are working in the

NHS that they do a fantastic job, we

0:55:210:55:27

want you to stay and we're very

confident that you will be able to

0:55:270:55:29

stay. But in a period of difficult

negotiations, it's probably not

0:55:290:55:33

surprising that you're going to have

some tailing off of applications

0:55:330:55:37

from people from other countries,

not least because they have their

0:55:370:55:42

own ageing populations, and

countries like Spain and Portugal

0:55:420:55:45

are recruiting nurses in significant

numbers for the first time in a

0:55:450:55:47

while.

John McDonnell has been in

touch to make it absolutely clear

0:55:470:55:52

that he was repeating comments other

people had made about lynching

0:55:520:55:57

Esther McVey. He wanted to clarify

that.

0:55:570:56:03

Now, a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

0:56:030:56:07

How tough should we be on British

jihadists coming back after fighting

0:56:070:56:12

with Islamic State? And forest

bathing, the latest way to de-stress

0:56:120:56:19

by getting to know a tree! All of

that coming up.

0:56:190:56:23

Almost out of time for today.

0:56:230:56:26

Next week, I'll be talking

to the Queen - well, OK,

0:56:260:56:29

not exactly the Queen,

but the wonderful Olivia Colman,

0:56:290:56:31

who's going to be playing her.

0:56:310:56:32

Lucky Queen.

0:56:320:56:33

We leave you now with

a maverick star of Americana.

0:56:330:56:36

Grammy Award winner Jason Isbell

is one of the few recording artists

0:56:360:56:38

who is completely

independent of any label.

0:56:380:56:40

The Nashville Sound,

an acclaimed new album,

0:56:400:56:44

sees him touring the UK

with his band 400 Unit.

0:56:440:56:46

He's here this morning

with If We Were Vampires.

0:56:460:56:48

Goodbye.

0:56:480:56:49

# It's not the long flowing

dress that you're in

0:56:490:56:53

# Or the light coming off

of your skin

0:56:530:56:58

# The fragile heart

you protected for so long

0:56:580:57:03

# Or the mercy in your

sense of right and wrong

0:57:030:57:08

# It's not your hands,

searching slow in the dark

0:57:080:57:12

# Or your nails leaving

love's watermark

0:57:120:57:17

# It's not the way you

talk me off the roof

0:57:170:57:23

# Your questions like

directions to the truth

0:57:230:57:28

# It's knowing that this

can't go on forever

0:57:280:57:37

# Likely one of us will have

to spend some days alone

0:57:370:57:40

# Maybe we'll get 40 years together

0:57:400:57:45

# But one day I'll be gone

or one day you'll be gone

0:57:450:57:48

# If we were vampires

and death was a joke

0:57:480:57:52

# We'd go out

on the sidewalk and smoke

0:57:520:57:57

# And laugh at all the

lovers and their plans

0:57:570:58:02

# I wouldn't feel the need

to hold your hand

0:58:020:58:07

# Maybe time running out

is a gift

0:58:070:58:11

# I'll work hard

'til the end of my shift

0:58:110:58:17

# And give

you every second I can find

0:58:170:58:22

# And hope it isn't

me who's left behind

0:58:220:58:28

# It's knowing that this

can't go on forever

0:58:280:58:33

# Likely one of us will have

to spend some days alone

0:58:330:58:38

# Maybe we'll get 40 years together

0:58:380:58:42

# But one day I'll be gone

or one day you'll be gone

0:58:420:58:50

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