29/10/2017 The Andrew Marr Show


29/10/2017

Interviews with key newsmakers and cultural figures. Andrew Marr's guests include Jeremy Hunt, Diane Abbott, Annette Bening and Jamie Bell. Plus music from Jason Isbell.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning.

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The Harvey Weinstein story seems

to be changing something quite

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profound in our culture,

as stories of sexual abuse

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spill out from Hollywood,

the theatre, the media,

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including the BBC, and now,

this week, Westminster as well.

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Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday

that this is a turning point.

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Is it?

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Diane Abbott, the shadow

Home Secretary, has had

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30 years of experience

of the Westminster culture.

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Mr Corbyn said something needs

to change - so, what?

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But there's another huge national

issue we're looking at today.

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Theresa May writes this

morning about her new

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crusade on mental health.

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The Government is promising action,

but what's the actual Tory

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record on mental health?

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I'll be asking the Health

Secretary Jeremy Hunt.

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With the Catalan crisis

still dominating today's news,

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I'm going to be looking at some

of its origins and the unsettling

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historical parallels with a leading

historian of the Spanish civil war,

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Antony Beevor.

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Playing us out this morning,

a Grammy Award-winning

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country star, Jason Isbell.

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# Knowing that this can't go on

forever.

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# Likely one of us will have to

spend some days alone.

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Reviewing the news,

the Corbyn-supporting Guardian

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columnist Owen Jones,

and the author and commentator

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Isabel Oakeshott.

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All that coming up after

the news, read this morning

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by Christian Fraser.

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Supporters of a united Spain

are expected to gather in Barcelona

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today amid rising tension over

Catalonia's declaration

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of independence, which has plunged

the country into a political crisis.

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The Spanish government has sacked

the region's leader,

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Carles Puigdemont, and imposed

direct rule from Madrid.

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Mr Puigdemont has responded

with a call for "democratic

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opposition" from all Catalans.

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Gavin Lee is in Barcelona

for us this morning.

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What is the latest?

These are the days of alternate

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demonstrations. We had on Friday in

credible scenes of celebration,

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families, pensioners, children

brought to the street wrapped in the

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flag of independence. To date on it

is the turn of Catalans who want

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unity who will be wearing their

flag, we have seen them crossing

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behind me as they gather in the main

square, we expect over 100,000

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people here today. Both sides asking

pretty much the same question, how

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will, or will indeed, the Spanish

Government force out the man who is

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technically no longer president,

Carles Puigdemont, but who will not

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go? He spoke yesterday

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about democratic and resisting what

will happen if him, along with 140

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officials, are moved out. I think

today we will see movement on the

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streets, the battle of the flags.

Tomorrow potentially the flash point

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in the government office, does

Carles Puigdemont try to go to work?

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It so, what does the Spanish

Government do about it?

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Heathrow Airport says

it is investigating how details

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of its security procedures

were found lying in

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the street in west London.

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The Sunday Mirror says

the information was on a memory

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stick, and had not been encrypted.

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It contained information

concerning the Queen,

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as well as maps showing CCTV cameras

and a network of tunnels

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and escape shafts, linked

to the Heathrow Express train line.

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Parents will no longer be able

to use a legal loophole to avoid

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paying child maintenance,

under new rules to be

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introduced within months.

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The Department for Work and Pensions

says it hope the changes will lead

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to hundreds of thousands of pounds

in additional child

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maintenance being collected

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The First Minister of Scotland,

Nicola Sturgeon, is to apologise

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on behalf of her Government

to all men convicted of sexual

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offences which involved other men

and have since been abolished.

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She'll make her statement next week

when the Scottish Government sets

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out new legislation to grant

automatic pardons

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to those affected.

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That's all from me.

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The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

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Back to you, Andrew.

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Thank you.

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Now to the papers.

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No single story dominating today,

the Sunday Times has a story about

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prisoners getting the vote in a

change of human rights legislation,

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and the sex pest story, they focus

on BBCi women, Michelle Hussain

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wakes up to find itself on the front

page of The Times and has tweeted

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this story is not accurate so far as

it concerns her. The Sunday

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Telegraph has a story about

hospitals failing to tackle a safety

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crisis, the Observer has gone for

Brexit, the only paper to do that

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today. Theresa May has warned the UK

to be ready for no deal. Spain on a

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knife edge, a genuinely dangerous

situation, and the Mail On Sunday

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has gone for the Westminster sex

story. Westminster sent -- minister

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said his PA to buy sex toys, not too

much gory detail, so don't panic.

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Owen Jones, let's carry on with that

story, inside the Sunday Times, a

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big piece about what is going on in

Westminster.

I think this is

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potentially very scandalous, reports

of two senior Cabinet ministers

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named by female researchers as being

"sex pests", the Prime Minister

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being updated on this but the whips,

and this is serious, treating it

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apparently as a bit of a laugh. A

joke yesterday about Harvey

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Weinstein and the sexual abuse and

rape of women. I think a number of

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things have to happen here, firstly

women need to be encouraged to be

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able to come forward and be

supported and believed, action needs

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to be taken about these Cabinet

ministers, but a critical question

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is, is Theresa May herself involved

in a cover-up of sexual harassment

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and abuse by her own ministers?

That

has to be made abundantly clear. You

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put all of this on the Conservatives

but there are stories about the

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Labour Party as well.

Absolutely,

1.4 million women face domestic

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violence EJ, 400,000 sexually

assaulted, 90,000 raped, the vast

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majority of cases have no justice,

whether it be the Labour Party or

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Conservative Party, any party, any

institution, women need to be

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supported and believed. The issue

here is about this briefing where

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whips apparently are treating it as

a joke and Theresa May is not taking

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action.

I think a lot of people

watching, Isabel Oakeshott, will be

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asking the question, how serious is

this? Some suggest Theresa May could

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lose three ministers over this and

be forced into a cabinet reshuffle.

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We need to keep a perspective on

this, the way Westminster is

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depicted in the papers today, you

imagine corridors full of marauding

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sex pest, the whole place like a

Berlin sex dungeon. I have worked at

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Westminster for over a decade, I

simply do not recognise the way that

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the corridors of power are being

portrayed here. Of course there are

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a few bad elements, I'm sure we have

all come across them, but I think

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the reporting of this is rather

hysterical and I do actually

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disagree with you, Owen, about the

comments by Michael Gove. Yes they

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were tasteless, but for everybody to

be so outraged over what was a

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rather clumsy comment, I just think

there are so many more things to be

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outraged about.

Obviously you can

talk about a hierarchy of outrage,

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there are many other things you

could go on forever with that logic,

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but the issue is many girls and

women, and I know many myself, do

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not feel able to come forward, do

not feel bullied, and when a Cabinet

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minister makes a joke about sexual

harassment, abuse and rape, in the

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case of Harvey Weinstein, it makes

it harder for people to come forward

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and it encourages a culture amongst

men, and men need to take

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responsibility to treat sexual abuse

and harassment as a bit of a joke, a

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bit of a laugh, lighten up everyone,

that is an issue that we have do

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address.

I don't for a minute

believe Theresa May or her whips

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will be taking this as a bit of a

laugh.

That is what the Sunday Times

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suggests.

If there is a possibility

of Cabinet ministers losing their

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jobs, that is not a laughing

situation.

You have been inside this

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culture for a long time, as had the

Sunday Times' deputy editor, she has

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written a piece.

Sarah Baxter has

written a piece in which she points

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out that, she is sort of slightly

coming at it from the same angle as

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I am, saying there is a world of

difference between a rape allegation

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or a really serious assault

allegation and the kind of rather

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clumsy flirting, rather rubbish, s

that I think a lot of people are

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talking about here. It is not

pleasant but it was ever thus, there

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are 14,000 pass-holders at

Westminster, show me any other

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workplace with that many people

where there are not some people who

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make rather rubbish comments.

Jeremy

Corbyn made a powerful intervention

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yesterday when he called for

victims, survivors of sexual

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harassment, abuse or worse, to come

forward. You would yourself

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encourage women who have been

sexually harassed or assaulted to

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come forward and put those

allegations forward, surely?

John

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Mann, in the House of Commons, has

suggested there should be some kind

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of tsar whose job it is to receive

allegations.

There was some pushback

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on that, which says something

slightly worrying. I think we should

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demand and expect a higher standard

from our elected representatives.

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Partly I'm saying, show me another

workplace... Actually, MPs have to

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be better than other people.

What

does it say about our democratic

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culture that every time there is

probably call for a tsar?

The

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problem with the House of Commons is

the nature of the employment,

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basically MPs are effectively

self-employed, there is not a human

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resources Department, it is

difficult to know who you go to,

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there is a trade union, Unite

represents Parliamentary research

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is, but it is difficult for them to

come forward and what MPs exploit in

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these cases is, this could be

detrimental to your career if you

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come forward.

I would like to move

on to the other huge story, the

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Catalan crisis. You have an Observer

story?

Yes, a story about the

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massive polarisation of Catalan

society, I think it is about 50-50

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at the moment being leaving, but the

vast amount of responsibility for

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the situation lies with the Spanish

government, there was reprimanded

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years ago Catalonia that enshrined

them as a nation, gave the language

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special protected status, the ruling

People's party stripped those away

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and, in attempt to deflect from

corruption scandals in the game,

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they ratcheted up attacks on

so-called separatists, and that has

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led to the attacks on the democratic

norms in Catalonia and assaulting

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voters as we saw the other week.

Your 50-50 statistic is interesting,

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I'm not sure where it comes from...

From polls.

Imagine the Scottish

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Government unilaterally declared

independence on the basis of an

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unconstitutional vote which

attracted a mere 43% turnout. That

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is nothing, we would be rightly

outraged about this. The Spanish

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Government has spectacularly

mishandled this, they have turned it

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into an unnecessary crisis.

The

differences, I did praise David

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Cameron very often, but the

Government here allowed Scotland to

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have a referendum to democratically

decided own future.

And that defused

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the situation, Madrid has not

handled this well.

They refused to

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allow them... I don't support

Catalan independence, as much as it

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matters, but they are being denied

the right to determine their future.

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In Cuba and Scotland, they were

allowed to decide.

Part of the

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problem I think is the Spanish

constitution, almost too clear on

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this, it has not given Mariano Rajoy

much movement for manoeuvre.

It was

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passed in the death of Franco and

was done to stop Civil War kicking

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off, that is why it is a hard line.

We don't have a huge amount of time,

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I want to move onto some other

stories. An intriguing story in the

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Mail on Sunday, that Amber Rudd, on

one wing of the party when it comes

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to Europe, Boris Johnson very much

on another, have come to some kind

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of arrangement?

This suggestion that

Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary,

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whose star has very much risen in

recent months, might team up with

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Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary

whose star has somewhat fallen, to

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make a kind of dream team in the

event of Theresa May falling on her

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sword, all being ousted.

So before

jumping in, Amber Rudd has been so

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rude about Boris Johnson in the past

-- sorry for jumping in.

Absolutely,

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she said she would not want to be in

the same car as Boris at the end of

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a night out! I don't entirely buy

into this, knowing the personalities

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and characters of both politicians.

I think it would be a very

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attractive ticket for voters, but

the problem is it would fall down

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almost instantly.

It just wouldn't

work?

I don't think Amber Rudd would

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put up with Boris' nonsense for more

than a few days, it might be another

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Michael Gove situation where she

pulled the plug at the last minute.

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The fact he is Foreign Secretary is

almost an international laughing

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stock, he has a history of bigoted

remarks, his manoeuvring on Brexit

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was for his own political career.

Onto the iPad with which you have

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been furnished...

So, yes, this is

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday marking 50

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years since abortion was

decriminalised, he has continued to

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fight for women's rights to choose

here and around the world. This

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point about giving women the right

to choose, it is an act of terrible

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violence to force women to have

children against their will. We know

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in countries where abortion is

banned, women do not have the right

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to choose, there is still demand for

abortion but it is unsafe and

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women's lives are put at risk and

that is why safe abortion is so

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important.

If it virtue signalling

to say, we must remember this? There

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is not a proposal here?

It was a

landmark, he is talking about

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Labour's record, Labour have a good

record of championing women's

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rights, that was a critical

milestone, and there is a danger

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that in America and here culture

warriors want to take away the right

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to choose...

You talk about an act

of terrible violence to force women

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to have babies they don't want, at

act of terrible violence is a late

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abortion. They are obscene and a lot

of people in this country feel

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really strongly about that. I think

what is

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interesting about the whole 50 year

anniversary thing is the extent to

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which science has come on, and

medicine, in those 50 years, and our

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ability to save premature babies,

neonatal care has improved

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dramatically so I would love to see

a debate about reducing the time

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limit on abortion, but it is very

difficult for politicians to do

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this.

I will encourage you to pick

up on another health story.

An

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unusual one, Owen and ICI to write

on this. Theresa May picking up on

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the pressure from voters over

putting more resources into mental

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Health Services, a real problem here

with the cash-strapped NHS, mental

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health Services so often don't get

the resources they need.

I hope you

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hammid Jeremy Hunt on his atrocious

record as Health Secretary, the

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longest squeeze in NHS funding since

its foundation and even though

0:16:120:16:16

parity of esteem was promised for

physical and mental health, cuts to

0:16:160:16:20

Mental Health Services ended up 20%

worse than for the rest of the NHS,

0:16:200:16:24

people forced to wait months for

treatment, often when they subside,

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bumped around the country, bed is

not available, there is lots of good

0:16:280:16:33

talk about mental health, and that

is important, but the action is not

0:16:330:16:40

there.

I detect an intriguing

considerable moment has not quite

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crystallised as expected! Thank you

both very much.

0:16:440:16:48

So we've just been

talking about Catalonia.

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We all understand that this is now

a confrontation between Madrid

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and the Northern separatists.

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But what can be difficult

to remember is just why

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feelings run so deep.

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This goes back to the 1930s -

many people will remember

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George Orwell's Homage To Catalonia.

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He was describing his time

fighting for anarchists

0:17:010:17:03

in the Spanish civil war.

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And I'm joined now by one of this

country's prime historians

0:17:100:17:16

of that war, Antony Beevor.

0:17:160:17:17

Can we start off about why the

Catalans feel separate?

They did

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have their own country and empire

back in medieval times and it was

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only really from 1716, after the war

Spanish accession and the great

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siege of Barcelona, but they were

fully brought under the control of

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Madrid. And it was the first ball

going king, Philip V, who brought

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this to pass, and this is why

they're very reluctant to accept the

0:17:440:17:49

monarchy.

So they were effectively

invaded and grabbed. In modern

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times, of course, they were mostly

on the Republican side in the

0:17:550:17:58

Spanish civil war, and most people

who go to Barcelona now think it is

0:17:580:18:03

a very lovely, sun-kissed place that

they should remember what it was

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like during the Spanish civil war,

when it was the epicentre?

Well, it

0:18:070:18:13

was and Franco and his generals

thought that they would win

0:18:130:18:16

Barcelona easily. In fact the most

desperate fighting took place in

0:18:160:18:21

July 1936, when the general stride

to take over, and they were defeated

0:18:210:18:25

basically by the Alick -ists, but

also by the semi Trotskyists who

0:18:250:18:32

George Orwell was fighting with.

Absolutely. So, a lot of fighting.

0:18:320:18:45

And these divisions go deep into

Catalan society to which side were

0:18:450:18:51

weak on in the war? I should mention

that in Madrid Mr Rajoy came from a

0:18:510:18:59

pro-Franco family, for instance.

Whereas Mr Puigdemont was on the

0:18:590:19:02

other side, so these are still deep

divisions in Catalonia?

Well, they

0:19:020:19:07

are deep throughout Spain, really.

But for the Catalans, I think the

0:19:070:19:13

most appalling crime of all was the

way that the Gestapo handed over the

0:19:130:19:20

president of the Generalitat to

Franco and he was then exit you did

0:19:200:19:25

in 1940.

We think of fascist leaders

as being 1940s characters, but

0:19:250:19:32

actually in Spain it goes right up

to the nineteen seventies. After he

0:19:320:19:38

wins the civil war, Franco really

represses Catalan autonomy?

Yes, and

0:19:380:19:51

for other regions as well. That's

why it was important after the death

0:19:510:19:55

of Franco in the constitution of

1978 for there to be a certain

0:19:550:20:01

reassurance about the unity of

Spain.

Absolutely. And what are your

0:20:010:20:08

reflections, you very, very well, on

what is happening right now, and the

0:20:080:20:11

agency with its the Catalans seem to

be demanding independence?

What one

0:20:110:20:17

is seeing to a degree is that the

urgency is prompted by the fact that

0:20:170:20:21

they are losing support for

independence. The latest poll shows

0:20:210:20:25

that actually it is 55% against and

only 41% or 42% in favour of

0:20:250:20:31

independence. They know they're

losing control and this is why there

0:20:310:20:35

is much more of a push over recent

days.

I was reading another

0:20:350:20:38

historian, I would say the name,

suggesting in yesterday's papers

0:20:380:20:43

that Spain might be on the brink of

actual violence, the beginning of a

0:20:430:20:47

Yugoslav-style break-up?

I don't

think so, I don't think we will see

0:20:470:20:52

a Catalan version of Eta arising or

anything like that. People say, are

0:20:520:21:02

we facing another Spanish civil war?

The conditions are totally separate.

0:21:020:21:08

I think Spain is a very mature

democracy and I think they probably

0:21:080:21:12

handle things as best they can in

the circumstances.

And of course

0:21:120:21:16

Catalonia is a very wealthy part of

Spain, Abel have a lot to lose?

In

0:21:160:21:19

deed. The Northern League in Italy

and other independence movements

0:21:190:21:25

were much more interested in paying

less taxes. I think on the whole

0:21:250:21:28

many of the historical arguments

tended to be used, if you like, as

0:21:280:21:35

emotional support to basically what

are quite self-centred reasons for

0:21:350:21:37

independence.

So we are in a kind of

read the book, don't look at the

0:21:370:21:43

crystal ball moment. What would you

expect for the next few moves?

I

0:21:430:21:47

think we're going to see more or

less a collapse, a split within the

0:21:470:21:51

Catalan movement. The extreme

activist side, which was already

0:21:510:22:00

holding Mr Puigdemont a little bit

hostage, I think that will be

0:22:000:22:06

falling back and we will see a

fragmentation. The very fact that

0:22:060:22:10

you've got 55% supporting the

central government and its call for

0:22:100:22:15

elections means that I think we're

going to see a calming of the

0:22:150:22:19

situation, rather than a threat of

another civil war, far from it.

0:22:190:22:24

Thank you very much very much indeed

for coming in. And so for the

0:22:240:22:28

weather. I'm delighted to say, it is

about to get a bit colder. About

0:22:280:22:35

time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it

is only

0:22:350:22:39

time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it

is only going to be a brief short,

0:22:390:22:42

sharp shock, but, yes. Temperatures

have been 8 degrees down on where

0:22:420:22:48

they were yesterday in Scotland. A

different story further south and

0:22:480:22:52

west, though. This has been sitting

across Wales and the Midlands, East

0:22:520:22:59

Anglia and the south-east of England

so far this morning, this weather

0:22:590:23:02

front. And behind it, some colder

air coming down from the Arctic. You

0:23:020:23:08

will notice that the cold air never

really gets down into the extreme

0:23:080:23:11

south-west today. But we will see

the cloud breaking up and sunny

0:23:110:23:16

spells coming through. Generally

speaking, it's a quiet day. The

0:23:160:23:21

northerly wind is driving in showers

along the North Sea coast driver.

0:23:210:23:26

Temperatures disappointing in

Scotland. The winds will continue to

0:23:260:23:35

be very large indeed, clear skies

overnight, as temperatures fall

0:23:350:23:38

away. First thing in the morning

it's going to be on the chilly site.

0:23:380:23:45

In rural spots we could see

temperatures just below freezing, so

0:23:450:23:49

our first widespread frost of the

season. Andrew, you're quite right,

0:23:490:23:55

but it's not going to last.

Horrible, mushy, grey, mild weather!

0:23:550:24:05

I hate it!

0:24:050:24:10

Speaking yesterday the leader

of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn,

0:24:100:24:12

responded to stories of sexual abuse

and the disgrace of a Labour MP,

0:24:120:24:16

Jared O'Mara, by denouncing

"a warped and degrading culture that

0:24:160:24:19

exists and thrives in the corridors

of power, including Westminster".

0:24:190:24:21

Diane Abbott, now the Shadow Home

Secretary, has lived inside that

0:24:210:24:24

culture for three decades,

and she joins me now.

0:24:240:24:27

You have been there for a long time

- do you recognise that as a warped

0:24:270:24:33

and dangerous culture?

Yes, and if

anything it was worse when I first

0:24:330:24:36

became an MP. You would remember,

you were there. You would have

0:24:360:24:40

micro-sexual aggression, so women

would get up in the chamber and the

0:24:400:24:44

Tories opposite would do this

gesture like they were weighing

0:24:440:24:49

their breasts. There was harassment,

there were jokes. Party to do with

0:24:490:24:53

the fact that it was a very male

environment, just 20 women out of

0:24:530:24:57

650 MPs when I went there. Hartley

to do with all of these men away

0:24:570:25:03

from home. Party to do with the fact

that there were eight bars and very

0:25:030:25:06

long hours and the bars were open

for as long as they were sitting.

0:25:060:25:10

Party due to the notion that what

happens in Westminster stays in

0:25:100:25:14

westerns to. It was worse. It is a

little better now but there is a

0:25:140:25:18

long way to go.

Did you yourself

face harassment?

I have to say, when

0:25:180:25:24

I was a new MP, I had a little boy,

I was a single mother, I didn't have

0:25:240:25:31

time to hang around bars. But I

heard from colleagues and I saw some

0:25:310:25:35

of the gestures and noises that were

made in the chamber. Clare Short,

0:25:350:25:40

who was a colleague at that time,

she tries to have a campaign against

0:25:400:25:46

naked women in the Sun, and the

abuse she got from other MPs...

0:25:460:25:52

People would be pulled now if that

kind of thing happened.

Fast forward

0:25:520:25:57

to now and it is still about men in

power and women relatively powerless

0:25:570:26:01

in many cases, researchers and so

forth. There is now a WhatsApp group

0:26:010:26:05

and women are talking to each other.

I don't know if you are aware of

0:26:050:26:09

that, but there is a different

atmosphere?

The world has moved on.

0:26:090:26:13

When I first went into Parliament,

so many of those men had been to all

0:26:130:26:17

boy boarding schools and had really

archaic attitudes towards women.

0:26:170:26:25

Middle-aged women, actually, are

less likely now than middle-aged men

0:26:250:26:28

to believe that young researchers

are irresistibly sexually attracted

0:26:280:26:34

to them. So the fact that we have

women MPs helps with that. We have

0:26:340:26:38

seen problems with our Labour

colleague who had to be suspended

0:26:380:26:44

for quite unacceptable language.

We

read in the Times about the

0:26:440:26:49

allegations, the question is, what

needs to change? Are you attracted

0:26:490:26:54

by the idea which I think John Mann

has talked about, some kind of

0:26:540:26:58

central figure in Westminster who is

there to receive those allegations

0:26:580:27:02

and investigate them privately?

Well, just this July, the Labour

0:27:020:27:07

Party has changed its systems. We're

going to be setting out where the

0:27:070:27:11

accusations were made, and you will

be able to make them anonymously,

0:27:110:27:14

and we're going to have special

sexual harassment panels and a

0:27:140:27:18

special process for dealing with it.

And I think all parties could learn

0:27:180:27:21

from that. But this is not a problem

for any particular party or fraction

0:27:210:27:27

of a party, it runs right across

Parliament.

That said, Jared O'Mara,

0:27:270:27:32

when did the Labour Party know about

what he said?

Well, when I heard

0:27:320:27:35

about it was last Monday. He came

and apologised and a lot of people

0:27:350:27:44

took his apology quite seriously and

then on Tuesday we had more

0:27:440:27:47

information and he was suspended and

the Labour Party is looking at it.

0:27:470:27:51

There was a text which suggested the

Labour Party was told this month ago

0:27:510:27:54

and didn't do anything?

I don't know

anything about that. The party knew

0:27:540:27:59

about it as far as I know, when the

allegations became public, last

0:27:590:28:03

week. This is an internal party

issue.

We are not hearing any sense

0:28:030:28:08

to sit in judgment without knowing

the facts over anybody, but

0:28:080:28:11

nevertheless, if these kinds of

things were said by any Labour MP,

0:28:110:28:15

should they stay as an MP?

You're

talking about the language and the

0:28:150:28:19

tone?

Yes.

Yes. That language and

that town is not acceptable in 2017.

0:28:190:28:28

We have now moved on, and the Labour

Party is fairly clear that we're

0:28:280:28:33

going to be a party with zero

tolerance for sexual harassment.

Do

0:28:330:28:36

you think Jared O'Mara can stay as a

Labour MP?

I can't judge, because

0:28:360:28:42

I've not seen the evidence. What I

would say is that that language and

0:28:420:28:50

that tone is unacceptable. The party

has moved on. And you know, where

0:28:500:28:55

you have that sort of language and

that sort of harassment and sexual

0:28:550:29:00

micro-aggression, it demeans and

diminishes all women - that's why

0:29:000:29:05

it's important to take a strong

line.

I don't know if you heard

0:29:050:29:08

Michael Gove's comments, which have

been all over the press - do you

0:29:080:29:13

think it is an overreaction to those

comments?

I heard it and I didn't

0:29:130:29:17

think it was funny. You know,

particularly in Parliament, making

0:29:170:29:23

sexual harassment the joke is not...

We've got to realise that it's

0:29:230:29:29

demeaning for women and undermines

the institution.

What about somebody

0:29:290:29:33

else who is much closer to you, John

McDonnell, I think you were actually

0:29:330:29:37

at the meeting, and he said, why are

we sacking her? Why aren't we

0:29:370:29:45

lynching the...? I cannot use the

word on television.

I wasn't at that

0:29:450:29:51

meeting, but I believe he was

quoting from somebody else. But let

0:29:510:29:55

me repeat, it undermines the case

against sexual abuse and harassment

0:29:550:30:03

if we try and make it a problem of a

particular party or fraction.

I

0:30:030:30:08

absolutely accept that. I'm only

asking you because this is your bit

0:30:080:30:11

of the party and everybody has to

call people out on these kind of

0:30:110:30:17

things in their own institutions and

organisations. Jess Phillips, who is

0:30:170:30:22

chair of the women's PLP said, the

targets of this betrayal, we should

0:30:220:30:28

kill Thatcher, comment nominate

always seems to be the one that

0:30:280:30:32

these people are women -- the common

denominator?

0:30:320:30:42

Sexual abuse in the abuse of women

has been a problem for a very long

0:30:420:30:46

time.

Including the left as well as

the right?

Making this a party

0:30:460:30:52

political thing...

I just want you

to acknowledge that it affects your

0:30:520:30:57

part of politics as well as the

other.

One of the first things I

0:30:570:31:01

said was this is about Parliament as

a whole, not about any one party,

0:31:010:31:05

and I am sticking to that because

that is correct. Once you start to

0:31:050:31:09

make it a tit-for-tat,

finger-pointing, party faction of

0:31:090:31:13

thing, actually you undercut what

ought to be in move forward to

0:31:130:31:19

eliminate this type of talk from

Parliament as a whole.

Did you think

0:31:190:31:22

this is a moment when the actual

culture is changing and that meant,

0:31:220:31:26

across Parliament, the BBC, anywhere

else, are now going to look at what

0:31:260:31:30

is on the front pages and change

their behaviour?

I hope so, because

0:31:300:31:35

although Parliament has long had

this toxic climate as Jeremy

0:31:350:31:39

referred to yesterday, I don't

believe broadcasters all newspapers

0:31:390:31:42

are any better and I do hope that in

the aftermath of the revelations

0:31:420:31:47

about Harvey Weinstein and the film

industry, modelling, that old male

0:31:470:31:53

dominated professions will look at

the way women are treated,

0:31:530:31:57

disrespected, and spoken about, and

we can see a change in attitudes.

We

0:31:570:32:01

have not spoken here since the

general election campaign. During

0:32:010:32:05

that campaign you were singled out

and treated very, very aggressively

0:32:050:32:09

by some parts of the media and

indeed other politicians, Theresa

0:32:090:32:13

May kept using your name, Diane

Abbott, Diane Abbott, Diane Abbott,

0:32:130:32:17

again and again and again. Do you

think you were unfairly singled out

0:32:170:32:21

or victimised during the campaign?

I

know I was singled out early in the

0:32:210:32:26

campaign by a colleague fighting in

a constituency who said there were

0:32:260:32:31

lorries coming around her

constituency...

Why do you think

0:32:310:32:36

that was?

Also the tour we spent a

lot of money on targeted Facebook

0:32:360:32:40

advertising about me, I think they

spent more money on me than anybody

0:32:400:32:44

else.

Do you think it was about the

colour of your skin?

You would have

0:32:440:32:49

to ask them. There is no question

that of all the Labour front bench I

0:32:490:32:54

was singled out. The Daily Mail had

I think 12 pages on me, Jeremy said

0:32:540:33:00

they should do 24 pages next time to

get more votes.

Did you ever think I

0:33:000:33:08

could put up with this any longer, I

will leave public life?

It is

0:33:080:33:12

difficult but I have fantastic

support from my friends and family

0:33:120:33:15

and people in the constituency,

people are still very supportive

0:33:150:33:19

now. Fortunately British people are

better than the tabloid press and

0:33:190:33:22

some of their politicians.

We

haven't even mentioned Brexit yet,

0:33:220:33:26

strange days! You have been very,

very clear that abolishing free

0:33:260:33:32

movement is connected in your future

anti-immigrant racism, and yet when

0:33:320:33:38

we leave the EU, which we will

almost certainly do in March 2019,

0:33:380:33:42

you may well be the person who ends

free movement. A lot of people who

0:33:420:33:47

voted for Brexit don't still

understand what the Labour Party's

0:33:470:33:50

position is going to be on free

movement and migration after we have

0:33:500:33:54

left the EU.

First of all, lots of

perfectly respectable reasons to

0:33:540:33:58

vote for Brexit, Tony Benn would

have voted for Brexit, had he been

0:33:580:34:03

alive, he always argued for coming

out of the European Union. But there

0:34:030:34:09

is an anti-immigrant undercurrent,

the Nigel Farage narrative, which

0:34:090:34:15

was not something which Tony Benn

would have had any time for. When we

0:34:150:34:19

leave the single market, free

movement falls because free movement

0:34:190:34:24

is part of being in the single

market.

So if you are a voter who

0:34:240:34:30

decided to vote for Brexit because

they wanted fewer people coming here

0:34:300:34:33

from the EU, will that happen under

a Labour Government?

Under a Labour

0:34:330:34:39

Government, we will have fair rules,

managed migration, we will deal with

0:34:390:34:45

some of these predatory employers

using not just European Union

0:34:450:34:51

immigrants but immigrants from other

parts of the world to undercut

0:34:510:34:54

British workers, we will deal with

that and we have spoken about the

0:34:540:34:57

things we will do.

To put it

brutally and coarsely, lots of

0:34:570:35:01

people out there would want fewer

Polish people, French people,

0:35:010:35:05

Spanish people, arriving here and

still don't know whether that would

0:35:050:35:07

be the case under Labour.

People

want fair rules and managed

0:35:070:35:12

migration, but if they also want

eight jobs Brexit and a Brexit which

0:35:120:35:17

does not harm the economy, they

should be voting Labour.

One final

0:35:170:35:23

question, in this morning's papers

you have seen a report that

0:35:230:35:26

prisoners will get the vote in some

circumstances, what is the Labour

0:35:260:35:31

position on that?

The European Court

of Human Rights has said. Years that

0:35:310:35:34

we cannot stop all prisoners having

the vote, and the Labour Party

0:35:340:35:39

believes that we should indeed, in

the end, we have to support the

0:35:390:35:46

position of the European Court of

Human Rights. So prisoners should

0:35:460:35:49

have the boat? It is not whether

they should have the vote but

0:35:490:35:53

whether we should abide by the

European Court of Human Rights, and

0:35:530:35:56

I think abiding by the European

Court of Human Rights, whether we

0:35:560:35:59

are in the EU will not, abiding by

those human rights issues is very

0:35:590:36:03

much a tenet of the type of

socialism I believe in.

One final

0:36:030:36:07

question, do you think a Labour

Government would or should recognise

0:36:070:36:11

the Catalans as an independent

state? A nice easy one for you!

It

0:36:110:36:18

is a very difficult and tragic

situation. We would want to see it

0:36:180:36:23

resolved by negotiation and we would

want to see it resolved under the

0:36:230:36:30

laws and legislation of Spain.

The

Government here has been clear there

0:36:300:36:34

would not recognise an independent

Catalonia, I wonder if the Labour

0:36:340:36:37

Party position is the same?

We are

clear this has to be resolved by

0:36:370:36:41

negotiation. The pictures that we

saw of what happened when the

0:36:410:36:44

Catalans tried to have a referendum,

of violence, the police, they were

0:36:440:36:50

dreadful, no one wants to see those

in a fellow European country.

All of

0:36:500:36:54

this is true but not quite an answer

to my question.

We believe that the

0:36:540:36:58

situation should be resolved by

negotiation, it is not for us to cut

0:36:580:37:02

across the laws and constitution is

of another country.

Diane Abbott,

0:37:020:37:06

thank you very much indeed for

talking to us.

0:37:060:37:09

Coming up later this morning

on the Sunday Politics,

0:37:090:37:11

Sarah Smith talks to the chair

of the Brexit committee,

0:37:110:37:13

Hilary Benn, and former

Cabinet Minister Theresa Villiers

0:37:130:37:15

on airport expansion.

0:37:150:37:16

That's the Sunday Politics at 11am.

0:37:160:37:20

Theresa May says that,

for far too long, mental health has

0:37:200:37:23

been disregarded compared

to physical health in this country,

0:37:230:37:25

and things need to change.

0:37:250:37:28

She's promising to defeat

the stigma of mental illness.

0:37:280:37:30

But what, over the last seven years,

is the actual Tory record on this?

0:37:300:37:34

The Health Secretary,

Jeremy Hunt, is with me.

0:37:340:37:40

Welcome, Mr Hunt. Can I ask you, on

your watch, has provision for mental

0:37:400:37:44

health got better or worse?

It has

got better but needs to get a lot

0:37:440:37:48

better still. We are treating now

1400 more people every day, seeing a

0:37:480:37:54

real increase in resources hitting

the front line, but when we made

0:37:540:37:59

that historic change in the law in

2012 when we said that we wanted to

0:37:590:38:04

end the terrible injustice of the

fact that if you break a leg you get

0:38:040:38:08

treated immediately in A&E but if

you have a mental health crisis you

0:38:080:38:11

might have to wait weeks or months

to be seen, to change that is going

0:38:110:38:16

to take a bit of time and we are

making progress on the right

0:38:160:38:20

direction but there is a lot more to

do.

You say it is getting better.

0:38:200:38:24

For a young person who may have an

anxiety disorder, depression, an

0:38:240:38:28

eating disorder or whatever, how

long should they have to wait before

0:38:280:38:31

they are seen by the NHS?

We have

said for an eating disorder we have

0:38:310:38:35

introduced a waiting time standard,

I think we are the first country in

0:38:350:38:40

the world to do that for eating

disorders, we have said if it is an

0:38:400:38:43

emergency they should be seen the

same week but you should certainly

0:38:430:38:46

be seen within four weeks. We are

setting up a series of eating

0:38:460:38:50

disorder units across the country...

Psychosis, depression?

On psychosis,

0:38:500:38:57

again, we are the first country in

the world to set up a waiting time

0:38:570:39:00

standard for your first incident of

psychosis but in order to deliver

0:39:000:39:04

that we have to train up staff,

trained psychiatrist, mental health

0:39:040:39:08

nurses, that is why I announced in

July and additional 21,000 posts

0:39:080:39:14

that we will be recruiting for in

the NHS in order to deliver those.

0:39:140:39:18

The quality care commission did a

study on this and found some young

0:39:180:39:22

people were waiting 18 months for

any kind of treatment?

That is

0:39:220:39:26

totally unacceptable and that is why

a couple of years ago we put

0:39:260:39:29

together a big report, authored by

Paul Farmer, the chief executive of

0:39:290:39:35

Mind, as to how we make progress

towards this parity of esteem, and

0:39:350:39:39

what we said was that, by 2020, 21,

we would aim to treat 1 million more

0:39:390:39:45

people every year, £1 billion extra

resources into mental health, but

0:39:450:39:49

that it would take some time to get

there because of the training of new

0:39:490:39:53

staff, expansion of capacity that we

need. We are, as I say, making good

0:39:530:39:58

progress in delivering that.

You

make it all sound very sunny but The

0:39:580:40:03

Children's Society said 30,000

children were turned away in a year,

0:40:030:40:07

getting no help at all from the NHS,

and if we look at the resources

0:40:070:40:11

problem, it comes down to resources,

when you came to power can you

0:40:110:40:16

remember how many mental health

nurses there were?

I think you are

0:40:160:40:18

going to tell me the number has gone

down.

By 5000, a lot.

Let me explain

0:40:180:40:24

why. Over the last five years we

have been dealing with the terrible

0:40:240:40:28

problems that we had in Mid-Staffs

and what that meant what we needed

0:40:280:40:32

to get more nurses into hospital

wards. Over that period we had

0:40:320:40:36

11,000 more nurses in the NHS as a

whole but they have tended to go

0:40:360:40:41

into hospitals where we had an

urgent problem to deal with. Overall

0:40:410:40:44

in terms of mental health staff,

those working in mental health

0:40:440:40:47

trust, we have got more than seven

years ago so we are expanding the

0:40:470:40:52

numbers...

Was it a mistake to take

out 5000 mental health nurses?

It

0:40:520:41:00

was not a conscious decision, we had

a crisis and realised a number of

0:41:000:41:04

hospitals across the country were

unsafe so we had a big effort to

0:41:040:41:07

make them safe and I think that has

borne fruit. But the unintended

0:41:070:41:13

consequence was pressure on mental

health nursing and the overall

0:41:130:41:15

lesson was we don't have enough

nurses and that is why at the

0:41:150:41:18

Conservative party conference a few

weeks ago I announced a 25% increase

0:41:180:41:22

in the number of nurse training

places, because the fact is we need

0:41:220:41:26

more nurses.

Given that you could

the nurses in the first place, it

0:41:260:41:32

does seem as if Jeremy Hunt has

decided to clear up the mess made by

0:41:320:41:36

Jeremy Hunt.

With respect, we have

11,000 more nurses now in the NHS

0:41:360:41:40

than when I became health

secretaries of the one thing you

0:41:400:41:43

cannot say is that I have not

prioritised the importance of nurses

0:41:430:41:46

in delivering safe care. We also

have more people working in mental

0:41:460:41:50

health. There has been a specific

issue on mental health nursing but

0:41:500:41:54

we are sorting that out.

What about

beds, because it is more or less the

0:41:540:42:03

same story, 7500 put in mental

health beds, for instance.

There are

0:42:030:42:05

two things going on, the first is

that we know that it is much better,

0:42:050:42:11

if you can, to treat someone with

severe mental health problems in the

0:42:110:42:14

community where they are properly

looked after, often by NHS staff,

0:42:140:42:18

than it is in what we used to have,

the old asylums, so there is a trend

0:42:180:42:23

away from hospital care.

Yet there

are people who need hospital care,

0:42:230:42:28

June the 1st last year there was a

moment in London when, if you were a

0:42:280:42:32

young person with a mental health

problem, there was not a single

0:42:320:42:35

hospital bed available for you in

London, the capital of one of the

0:42:350:42:39

world -- the capital, and one of the

world's greatest cities. That is

0:42:390:42:44

scandal. We have a problem with what

is called the tier four bed and we

0:42:440:42:51

have increased those in response to

those issues.

What is most

0:42:510:42:55

unacceptable is if you are a young

person and need to be an NHS

0:42:550:43:01

inpatient in a mental health

organisation, to have to go to the

0:43:010:43:04

other side of the country, because

what matters in terms of your

0:43:040:43:07

recovery is that you can be visited

by parents or friends...

That is

0:43:070:43:10

happening again and again because of

the lack of nurses and beds on your

0:43:100:43:14

watch.

Andrew, I think you are

mis-characterising what has happened

0:43:140:43:18

because there is more money, more

people working in mental health, we

0:43:180:43:22

are increasing the number of beds

particularly for younger people, but

0:43:220:43:26

Rome wasn't built in a day and if we

are going to achieve Theresa May's

0:43:260:43:31

ambition of full parity of esteem

between mental and physical help

0:43:310:43:34

then we are going to need to train

up many, many more people to deliver

0:43:340:43:37

that. That is what we are doing, and

we are absolutely determined to end

0:43:370:43:42

this injustice that we have at the

moment.

Seven years to end this

0:43:420:43:47

injustice, you are entering your

sixth year as Health Secretary,

0:43:470:43:51

which makes you the third longest in

the post since neither them, and I

0:43:510:43:56

can't under who else...

Norman

Fowler.

One of the longest serving

0:43:560:44:03

Health Secretary. Do not recognise

that given the cuts in bed and

0:44:030:44:07

nurses over time, part of the crisis

has happened on your watch and is a

0:44:070:44:10

result of the cuts made at the

beginning of your time?

Andrew, you

0:44:100:44:14

are only painting a limited picture.

What has actually happened on my

0:44:140:44:18

watch is the biggest expansion of

mental health provision in Europe.

0:44:180:44:22

Other countries are looking at what

we are doing... Forgive me, if not

0:44:220:44:26

the bed and nurses, where is the

expansion taking place?

For example,

0:44:260:44:33

treatment on anxiety and depression,

what we are doing now is considered

0:44:330:44:36

world leading, being copied by the

Swedes, who are looking to import

0:44:360:44:39

what we are doing on psychological

therapy into Stockholm. Overall, we

0:44:390:44:43

are treating, I am saying this for

the second time because I don't

0:44:430:44:47

think it registered, 1400 more

people every day, there is a big

0:44:470:44:51

expansion, 3000 more people working

in talking therapies...

People

0:44:510:44:55

outside saying so many different

things.

0:44:550:45:06

The president of the family board,

I'm sure you will remember the case

0:45:120:45:15

of a 17-year-old girl who was a

recital and about to be released and

0:45:150:45:18

he condemned the disgraceful and

utterly shaming black of proper

0:45:180:45:20

provision in this country and he

said, we, the system, society and

0:45:200:45:22

the state will have blood on our

hands. Things then changed for that

0:45:220:45:25

girl but he took -- but it took a

High Court judge to say that

0:45:250:45:28

publicly and come to the Secretary

of State to get changes.

And he was

0:45:280:45:30

right to say that but that is why we

are changing. In the last year, for

0:45:300:45:34

example, we are spending over half

£1 billion more on mental health in

0:45:340:45:36

the NHS, at a time when, as you

know, NHS resources are very

0:45:360:45:40

constrained, but the reality is,

because we are proud to offer a

0:45:400:45:45

service that is free at the point of

use in the NHS, and rightly so,

0:45:450:45:50

there is huge untapped demand for

mental health provision and we know

0:45:500:45:54

now that you can, in many cases,

make a mental illness completely

0:45:540:45:59

better, and because people

understand that there are lots of

0:45:590:46:03

people who want NHS care, but it

will not be solved overnight and we

0:46:030:46:06

have to be honest with the British

people, our plan is 2020-21, we will

0:46:060:46:12

deliver the Paul Farmer plan and be

tweeting more people every year, we

0:46:120:46:16

are on track to do that but it will

not happen overnight, there is no

0:46:160:46:20

silver bullet, I'm afraid it takes

time.

0:46:200:46:32

You have been at Westminster for a

very long time and you have heard

0:46:320:46:37

all of the stories, what you think

about them?

These stories if they

0:46:370:46:44

are true are totally unacceptable.

The Cabinet Office will be

0:46:440:46:48

conducting an investigation as to

whether there has been a breach of

0:46:480:46:52

the ministerial code in this

particular case. The facts are

0:46:520:46:56

disputed, obviously. But there are

mums and dads who have daughters who

0:46:560:47:02

are politics students hoping to get

a job in Westminster. They must be

0:47:020:47:05

able to be confident that if they

get that job, their daughter will

0:47:050:47:07

not be subject to some of these

behaviours, so it's absolutely

0:47:070:47:11

essential that we sort this out.

Nobody wants trial by television,

0:47:110:47:14

but nonetheless the Mysterio code

covers this area, does it?

It does,

0:47:140:47:18

this area and many others. But I

think it is important, you were

0:47:180:47:23

having the same discussion with

Diane Abbott, and the other point to

0:47:230:47:26

make is that this is something which

covers behaviour by MPs of all

0:47:260:47:32

parties, and that's why the other

thing that's going to happen is that

0:47:320:47:36

today, Theresa May is going to write

to the Speaker to ask for his advice

0:47:360:47:40

as to how we change that culture. I

would agree with Diane Abbott, I

0:47:400:47:44

think things have got better in

recent years, but there's still a

0:47:440:47:48

long way to go.

Do you agree with

John Mann that there should be some

0:47:480:47:52

kind of miss entry character who

receives allegations of this nature,

0:47:520:47:55

logs into them in private, a place

that people can go?

Well, I think

0:47:550:48:02

there is merit in the idea of having

someone anonymously or you can talk

0:48:020:48:07

to if you're unhappy about the way

you've been treated. But I think

0:48:070:48:10

these things need to be looked at

probably by the Speaker, because

0:48:100:48:14

it's about the conduct of Parliament

has a whole.

Let's turn back to the

0:48:140:48:20

NHS. Normally in these interviews, I

have statistics and you have

0:48:200:48:23

statistics and we throw them at each

other! We've already done that! So,

0:48:230:48:29

let's do something slightly

different and ask you to listen to

0:48:290:48:34

the test any of a nurse who spoke to

Newsnight last week, and this is

0:48:340:48:37

what she said.

The way that things

have become in A&E over the last two

0:48:370:48:41

years, we're at breaking point, it

can't carry on. Queues on the

0:48:410:48:46

corridor and the situation that the

patients are in and that the

0:48:460:48:49

department is in, it's unsafe. We're

probably seeing about 100 patients

0:48:490:48:55

more per day than we were a year

ago. It just seems to be acceptable

0:48:550:48:59

to treat people on the corridor, and

it's not be defied, really, is it?

0:48:590:49:06

To see the NHS as it is now, erm, I

don't see it getting any better. In

0:49:060:49:13

my eyes, it's just going to get

worse.

Now, that's how it feels from

0:49:130:49:18

the perspective of one nurse in

Birmingham. What would you say to

0:49:180:49:21

that?

Well, I listen to that with a

great deal of sympathy, because I

0:49:210:49:26

think she speaks for a lot of people

who feel an enormous amount of

0:49:260:49:31

stress on the front line, our

hospitals have never been busier,

0:49:310:49:35

our NHS staff have never worked

harder. We have this enormous

0:49:350:49:39

pressure of an ageing population,

and there is no doubt that we are

0:49:390:49:43

going to need to find more money for

the NHS in the years ahead of us,

0:49:430:49:47

because we have a million more over

Max Evans fives coming down the

0:49:470:49:53

railway track in the next decade.

And what do we want? We want the NHS

0:49:530:49:56

to be the safest and best health

service anywhere in the world. As a

0:49:560:50:02

Conservative, I believe that good

public services are moral purpose of

0:50:020:50:08

a strong capitalist economy, that's

why we do it. And so what we need to

0:50:080:50:12

do as a government is to make sure

the NHS gets the resources it needs,

0:50:120:50:16

and that has been very difficult

because of the financial situation

0:50:160:50:19

the country is in. But over the last

few years we've started to seize

0:50:190:50:25

some increases, and we need to

address that nurse's concerns,

0:50:250:50:30

because what she wants is what I

want, which is to make sure we give

0:50:300:50:33

patients the very best care.

The

last time we spoke you said that it

0:50:330:50:38

was very clear that the NHS does

need more resources. You're just

0:50:380:50:43

about to lift the 1% cap on NHS pay,

which will delight a lot of people

0:50:430:50:48

working in the NHS - are they

actually going to get a pay

0:50:480:50:53

increase?

Well, we have the

independent pay review body which

0:50:530:50:56

looks at this, and it would be one

for me on how to give you a view as

0:50:560:51:00

to where I think that process will

end up, because I want to hear what

0:51:000:51:04

the independent experts say would be

a fair pay rise. But one of the

0:51:040:51:09

things which is behind the

frustration of that nurse and others

0:51:090:51:13

is that they have had pay restraint

for many, many years, and they want

0:51:130:51:17

to see some recognition of the very

hard work they do.

So, even a 3%

0:51:170:51:24

rise would not actually be a pay

rise for most people, given

0:51:240:51:27

inflation. But to give people a

sense, how much would a 3% rise cost

0:51:270:51:34

the NHS?

It would probably be £1

billion, so it's a serious amount of

0:51:340:51:39

it. The Chancellor has said that if

we can have a negotiation and look

0:51:390:51:45

at some of the ways that we can

improve productivity at the same

0:51:450:51:49

time condo he's willing to have a

discussion with me about finding

0:51:490:51:53

extra resources.

This is the crucial

question. You've got mental health,

0:51:530:51:59

many other things, and now the pay

pressure as well - are you going to

0:51:590:52:04

be able to marry this with the new

money from the Chancellor which

0:52:040:52:07

allows you to pay people more

without actually cutting back

0:52:070:52:10

elsewhere in hospitals?

Well, this

government is absolutely committed

0:52:100:52:14

to making our NHS the safest and

best health care system. We

0:52:140:52:19

recognise there's a lot of work to

do in mental health and many other

0:52:190:52:22

areas as well. I will be making a

very robust case for the NHS to get

0:52:220:52:26

the resources it needs, as I'm sure

other Cabinet ministers will be

0:52:260:52:30

doing for their departments. But

when it comes to money for the NHS,

0:52:300:52:35

every week we have avoidable death,

avoidable harm in the NHS. That is

0:52:350:52:40

nothing to do with resources, at

least not principally to do with

0:52:400:52:44

resources. If we're going to be the

best, we have to have a culture of

0:52:440:52:49

safety and quality which comes from

the inside, as well as the cheque

0:52:490:52:54

from the Chancellor. The two need to

go together. The CQC say that the

0:52:540:53:02

care is getting safer. The

Commonwealth Fund and the

0:53:020:53:06

independent think-tank say the NHS

is the best health care system in

0:53:060:53:09

the world. So, the final thing I

would say to that nurse is, yes, we

0:53:090:53:14

face enormous pressures, but we're

not the only country. Our NHS and

0:53:140:53:19

our values put us in a better place

to deal with those pressures than

0:53:190:53:23

many other countries.

Perhaps it is

because we ask the NHS to do so much

0:53:230:53:28

and we do relatively little

ourselves. There was an interesting

0:53:280:53:34

experiment in Hertfordshire, saying

to people that if they want

0:53:340:53:37

nonurgent operations, they can't

have it while they're still smoking.

0:53:370:53:41

They're going to Brecel lies them to

check that they have not been

0:53:410:53:44

smoking for six weeks before the

operation - do you think that kind

0:53:440:53:47

of thing is a good idea?

I do think

that we have to allow some local

0:53:470:53:54

discretion in these areas. There are

a number of operations where your

0:53:540:53:57

recovery is a lot quicker if you're

not a smoker. The thinking behind

0:53:570:54:02

these kind of scheme is that you

will have better surgical outcomes

0:54:020:54:05

if you do this... It is not

something I would suggest for the

0:54:050:54:10

whole NHS, we need to see if it

works in Hertfordshire.

It's more

0:54:100:54:13

the general philosophical question,

if you drink, if you smoke - these

0:54:130:54:19

things should be taken into account,

a kind of deal between you and the

0:54:190:54:23

NHS?

I think I believe in a taxpayer

funded system, where care is not

0:54:230:54:30

rushing and everybody pays their

taxes. But I also believe in

0:54:300:54:33

personal responsibility. And I think

we all have responsibility in terms

0:54:330:54:37

of the lifestyle that we lead, to

ourselves and also to our fellow

0:54:370:54:43

citizens, and also in terms of the

pressures that are being put on the

0:54:430:54:46

NHS. But I think British citizens

understand that, because the NHS

0:54:460:54:52

belongs to all of us, and we all

need to do our bit to make sure that

0:54:520:54:56

we don't exacerbate the pressures

which are very real.

There has been

0:54:560:55:00

quite a dramatic crop in the number

of nurses coming into the NHS from

0:55:000:55:03

the rest of the EU after the Brexit

vote - are you worried about that?

I

0:55:030:55:09

think, of course, Brexit brings a

number of concerns to the NHS. What

0:55:090:55:17

I always try to do is to reassure

the brilliant doctors and nurses

0:55:170:55:21

from the EU who are working in the

NHS that they do a fantastic job, we

0:55:210:55:27

want you to stay and we're very

confident that you will be able to

0:55:270:55:29

stay. But in a period of difficult

negotiations, it's probably not

0:55:290:55:33

surprising that you're going to have

some tailing off of applications

0:55:330:55:37

from people from other countries,

not least because they have their

0:55:370:55:42

own ageing populations, and

countries like Spain and Portugal

0:55:420:55:45

are recruiting nurses in significant

numbers for the first time in a

0:55:450:55:47

while.

John McDonnell has been in

touch to make it absolutely clear

0:55:470:55:52

that he was repeating comments other

people had made about lynching

0:55:520:55:57

Esther McVey. He wanted to clarify

that.

0:55:570:56:03

Now, a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

0:56:030:56:07

How tough should we be on British

jihadists coming back after fighting

0:56:070:56:12

with Islamic State? And forest

bathing, the latest way to de-stress

0:56:120:56:19

by getting to know a tree! All of

that coming up.

0:56:190:56:23

Almost out of time for today.

0:56:230:56:26

Next week, I'll be talking

to the Queen - well, OK,

0:56:260:56:29

not exactly the Queen,

but the wonderful Olivia Colman,

0:56:290:56:31

who's going to be playing her.

0:56:310:56:32

Lucky Queen.

0:56:320:56:33

We leave you now with

a maverick star of Americana.

0:56:330:56:36

Grammy Award winner Jason Isbell

is one of the few recording artists

0:56:360:56:38

who is completely

independent of any label.

0:56:380:56:40

The Nashville Sound,

an acclaimed new album,

0:56:400:56:44

sees him touring the UK

with his band 400 Unit.

0:56:440:56:46

He's here this morning

with If We Were Vampires.

0:56:460:56:48

Goodbye.

0:56:480:56:49

# It's not the long flowing

dress that you're in

0:56:490:56:53

# Or the light coming off

of your skin

0:56:530:56:58

# The fragile heart

you protected for so long

0:56:580:57:03

# Or the mercy in your

sense of right and wrong

0:57:030:57:08

# It's not your hands,

searching slow in the dark

0:57:080:57:12

# Or your nails leaving

love's watermark

0:57:120:57:17

# It's not the way you

talk me off the roof

0:57:170:57:23

# Your questions like

directions to the truth

0:57:230:57:28

# It's knowing that this

can't go on forever

0:57:280:57:37

# Likely one of us will have

to spend some days alone

0:57:370:57:40

# Maybe we'll get 40 years together

0:57:400:57:45

# But one day I'll be gone

or one day you'll be gone

0:57:450:57:48

# If we were vampires

and death was a joke

0:57:480:57:52

# We'd go out

on the sidewalk and smoke

0:57:520:57:57

# And laugh at all the

lovers and their plans

0:57:570:58:02

# I wouldn't feel the need

to hold your hand

0:58:020:58:07

# Maybe time running out

is a gift

0:58:070:58:11

# I'll work hard

'til the end of my shift

0:58:110:58:17

# And give

you every second I can find

0:58:170:58:22

# And hope it isn't

me who's left behind

0:58:220:58:28

# It's knowing that this

can't go on forever

0:58:280:58:33

# Likely one of us will have

to spend some days alone

0:58:330:58:38

# Maybe we'll get 40 years together

0:58:380:58:42

# But one day I'll be gone

or one day you'll be gone

0:58:420:58:50

Interviews with key newsmakers and cultural figures, and a look at what is happening in the world this week.

Andrew Marr's guests include health secretary Jeremy Hunt MP, shadow home secretary Diane Abbott MP, and actors Annette Bening and Jamie Bell. Plus music from Jason Isbell and Owen Jones and Isabel Oakeshott review the newspapers.