17/12/2017 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

Welcome to our last show of the

year.

What a year it's been.

Back in 2016, we had Brexit,

Donald Trump's election,

and all those bloodthirsty

leadership tussles.

And we thought, "Wow -

2017's going to be a lot

calmer than that."

But what happened?

The unexpected general election,

its unexpected result,

a weakened but resilient

Prime Minister struggling on,

and the drama of the Corbyn surge.

2018's going to be really quiet.

But are the ghosts of past decisions

coming back to haunt

the Government this Christmas?

I'll be talking about

fairness with the Work

and Pensions Secretary, David Gauke.

And now we know that Labour

is committed to "easy movement"

of people post-Brexit.

But what does that mean?

I'll be asking the Shadow Home

Secretary, Diane Abbott.

It's up to you to

decide which of them

is a villain or a hero,

but I've been talking

to a man who plays both -

James Norton, the terrifying

psycho from Happy Valley,

now starring in a new and very

up-to-the-minute BBC One thriller,

McMafia, about the Russian

criminal underworld.

Plus we'll be looking back

over the political year.

Who could these people

be talking about?

I don't want him managing

the Brexit process.

This is back-seat

driving, in effect.

You could call it

backstreet driving.

I don't understand why

she hasn't fired him.

Is he unsackable?

SHE LAUGHS.

Look, let's be very clear...

You've probably guessed but find out

for sure later.

And we'll be finishing

with a Christmas carol.

# The rising of the sun and the

running of the dear

# Sweet singing in the choir.

Reviewing the news,

the cream of journalism -

Tim Shipman of the Sunday Times,

the political broadcaster

Emma Barnett, and Rachel Johnson

of the Mail on Sunday.

But first the news

with Ben Thompson.

Good morning.

Six people have been killed

and a seventh critically injured

in a multiple vehicle crash

in Birmingham, according to

the West Midlands Ambulance Service.

The crash happened early

Sunday morning on Belgrave

Middleway near Edgbaston.

Six vehicles were involved

in the incident.

The road is expected to be

closed throughout the day.

Every worker aged 18

or over will begin saving

into a workplace pension

unless they opt out.

That's under government plans

being unveiled today.

At the moment, employers must enrol

staff aged 22 and over

into a pension plan if they earn

more than £10,000 a year.

Ministers say they want

to reduce the minimum age

to 18 by the mid 2020s,

a move that could affect around

900,000 young people.

Theresa May says the last ten days

have "marked a watershed"

in the UK's departure

from the European Union.

Writing in the Sunday Telegraph

and the Sunday Express,

the Prime Minister says

she will "not be derailed" from

securing an "ambitious" Brexit deal.

Meanwhile, the Foreign Secretary

Boris Johnson has told

the Sunday Times that it's vital

the UK doesn't mirror EU

laws in the long term,

or the country risks

being a "vassal state."

Drivers are being urged to avoid

travelling on so-called

"Frantic Friday" this week,

when the last of the year's

commuter traffic will clash

with the Christmas getaway.

The RAC warns that the worst

hold-ups are expected

between 4 and 8pm.

It also estimates that 11.5 million

car trips will be made

between now and Christmas Eve.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you, Ben.

Now to the papers.

Now to the papers.

We have somebody on the front of the

Sunday Times who thinks that Jacob

Rees-Mogg is a sex god. And Boris

Johnson says we must be left as a

vassal state or a colony of the EU.

The Sunday telegraph, Theresa May

has written for them as well as the

Express, I have proved the doubters

wrong, she says. And there is Jo.

Strictly has become a personality

contest, and everybody loved Joe.

Another personality contest inside

Africa going on on the front of the

Observer, a new leader for the ANC

shortly, and they have a different

take on Brexit, call off the Brexit

Belize or face defeat, Tory peers

tell May. The dangers of Theresa May

leaning too far to Boris Johnson and

that lot. A story about Corbyn

trolling a Tory MP on the front of

the Mail on Sunday, but this story

is rather lacking in names and

details and we probably will not

give it much attention. In the

Sunday Express, Theresa May, she

says, I won't be derailed.

Interviewing Boris Johnson, and we'd

love to see you here in due course,

but you have interviewed him. What's

the top line?

He is going to Russia

next week but he couldn't resist

talking about Brexit. He waxed

lyrical about how these meetings are

happening early next week at the

Cabinet and everybody is going to

put out their points of view, and

Boris is saying, it's important when

Boris is saying, it's important when

we leave that we are able to ditch

EU rules. We don't want to be a

vassal state and we need to do our

own thing.

More or less what Theresa

May said in the Florence speech, but

there is a clear gap. We can't use

words like hard or soft, but a clear

gap between those people who want us

to stay as close as possible to the

EU, the converters or the

continental shelf party, and those

who want to turn their backs and

look out to the rest of the world,

the deep boozy party. Is that fair?

Yes, Boris, Michael Gove and Gavin

Williamson on one side, Philip

Hammond and Amber Rudd and others on

the other, and there will be a big

ding dong over month or so in the

cabinet around that. In the paper

this morning, we are reading that

Michael Gove wanted to ditch the

working time directive, which I

suspect will become heated. They are

looking for ways we will have

freedoms and how to use them to make

a different sort of...

A different

economy and society?

Potentially.

Theresa May has been busy with her

pen overnight. Rachel, tell us about

this one.

This is a piece that at

the FT we used to call a mediocre

piece, because it took me so many

attempts to get through to the third

leg of it. Essentially, she is

saying, steady as she goes, I'm

getting on with job, but you get

towards the end you see that Theresa

May realises her government has a

problem, which means it is being

consumed by Brexit. At some point,

she says, we are also doing this for

the young people and housing and the

rest of it, so she is trying in the

margins, it has to be said, to

address the causes of Brexit as well

as Brexit. She has a job on the

ends.

She's like one of those

fairground things, when you knock

her, she come straight back up.

There was a growing sense perhaps

that she is able to keep going when

lots of men would have given up and

stormed off.

To me, it's like the

charge of the light Brigade, cannons

to the left, cannons to the right,

the EU in front, and as far as I'm

aware, into the valley of death,

which is going out of the EU and

over the cliff.

Some people agree,

because there was a new poll from

the Independent.

Yes, the largest

gap between people who want to

remain and those who want to leave,

51% backing remaining in the union

and 49% still wanting to leave, and

it feeds into this greater sense of

a rebellion, as we saw it, with the

Conservatives who went against the

government this week, that perhaps

we are in that situation.

We have

had polls bring in lots of

directions, and another one in the

Sun, but there is maybe some sense

that the mood of the country is

changing from the anti-Brexit side

of the argument, although they

accept it's going to happen. The

Observer macro as lead on the Tory

remainders flexing their muscles,

flexing their muscles and determined

to carry on fighting in the House of

Lords.

Two elements to what they

have done today, in the week when

the Conservative rebels were branded

mutineers, what now for the hard

line, for the Brexiteers? Some

quotes saying, now that the hard

Brexiteers are no longer important,

not only did they push to get the EU

referendum, but their voices are

being drowned out in Parliamentary

process. You are quoting Jacob

Rees-Mogg saying that we don't want

become an EU colony, and Boris

represents the other side, talking

about wanting to have total

divergences from the law, but they

are now being outnumbered and

defeated. Two Conservative peers in

the Observer saying, we will not be

bullied in the House of Commons Ali

Lord's. In a week when Lord Winston

on question time was talking about

maybe Brexit will not happen. -- we

will not be bullied in the House of

Lords. It's an interesting tone

starting to happen as it gets into

the kinds of Parliament.

From

outside, you'd think that the people

pro Brexit would be in the driving

seat and you would find it hard to

believe that they have suddenly lost

all that power and gumption in the

last few days. What do you think,

Tim?

Is difficult to see it being

overturned, but the problem Theresa

May has is that it looks like there

was a majority in the House of

Commons for a softer Brexit but, in

the Conservatives, there is still a

strong majority in favour of a clean

break and doing it in the way Boris

would like.

But we never seem to

know what Theresa May actually

things.

Here is the question,

because there was going to be a

Cabinet meeting this week in which

we are told everybody is going to

lay out their own vision of what is

going to beat Britain's relationship

with the EU and the rest of the

world after Brexit, and that must

mean that the Prime Minister finally

says, this is what I want.

I

wouldn't put too much on that!

Downing Street briefing that the

Prime Minister will listen to the

views of her ministers but will not

provide a strong lead. She will go

away over Christmas and work out

where she can come back in the New

Year and make a speech that tries to

synthesise all of these views, which

could be difficult.

Let's go to

Dominic Grieve, in the Mail, a

torrid week for him. He seems to be

unbowed, it's fair to say.

The story

here is of a confrontation between

Dominic Grieve, the rebel commander,

and Julian chief Ali Smith, the new

Chief Whip. He might look back on

his old friend, Gavin Williamson. --

and Julian Smith, the new Chief

Whip.

He needs a tarantula.

This

highlights tensions in the Tory

party and accusations of betrayal.

There is still a great sensitivity

with May and her team at the centre

who are worried about any form of

dissent from people like Dominic

Grieve.

Let's break away from Brexit

and go to another story. The

automatic pensions story, which is

all over the news today, and takes

us all back to our early years,

because this is a story whereby

900,000 more young people are going

to be automatically enrolled in

pension schemes.

I haven't drilled

down particularly, but one always

asks with these things, how much is

it going to cost the government or

the employers if they are going to

have to match contributions?

Or the

employees, because the amount you

pay in goes up sharply next year.

In

our 20s, we were never going to get

old, were we? Look at us now! When I

started in journalism, I wasn't

allowed to join a pension scheme, so

this is a welcome reverse.

But the

red tape to businesses will be

interesting, because at the same

time the Conservatives are trying to

appeal to young people, and perhaps

it isn't that sexy a cell, but it's

important, and if you're joining the

workforce at 18, not going to

university, not paying tuition

fees...

Onto another story, Grenfell

Tower, one of the dominating stories

of this year. Steve McQueen is an

artist and film-maker, a real rising

star in that world, and he is making

a film about this.

He grew up in a

council estate near Grenfell Tower,

so he starts work tomorrow to create

a lasting memorial, using a

helicopter to film the carcass of

that building, which is still

standing. The eyes of the country is

possibly the world this week were

forced back again onto what has

happened to be survivors of

Grenfell, remembering the 71 died at

that national memorial at St Pauls,

and he is a fitting choice to try

and do justice, if that's the right

way of saying it, to creating a

memorial to the people who lost

their lives. The helicopter will

film the charred remains of the

building, but eventually it will go

on display in the London museum.

I

live about 200 yards from Grenfell

Tower, and I think there is some

suggestion from the people who lived

in the tower that they want it to

remain as it is as a memorial, as a

reminder of what happened to the

people who died. It is being clad at

the moment, but I think it's still

in the balance. It is good he is

recording it.

A fairly hideous thing

to see every time you come into

London, that blackened stump at you

for the

-- staring at you. With

Theresa May writing this piece today

at Brexit, while it has been quite a

lot of people is a single issue

government, and this week by having,

six months on, a commemoration at St

Pauls, and seeing politicians, the

Royal Family, people affected by

that tragedy, sitting together, I

can't remember a service like that.

It focuses the mind on those people.

Let's turn to South Africa, Tim

Shipman. A big spread from your

paper about the ANC.

It is a

reminder that chaotic politics isn't

confined to Britain. The ANC annual

get-together has begun, and it's all

about who replaces Jacob Zuma. It is

a measure of the trouble that Jacob

Zuma is in, facing 800 accusations

of corruption, that he wants his

ex-wife to take over because she

might protect him from prosecution

the favourite is his deputy,

international business is waiting to

see what happens, they hope his

deputy wins and cleaned out the

stables.

And it puts our party political

conferences to shame with all of the

dancing and whooping. One final

story I insist on discussing is

Strictly.

I don't know what that was

but I liked it. That's my entire

repertoire! I watched a bit of it.

It's wonderful, isn't it?

They often

have to or three people who are

spectacular dancers but who didn't

win because in the end in the public

vote it's about whether they like

you or not.

I think Joe McFadden is

a wonderful winner, but is it about

who has the best social media game?

It was a great victory for Scotland.

Also I think it's good to mention

Debbie McGee, 59 years of age,

someone older not being a joke on

the programme and she was amazing.

And a great result too for Katya

Jones. Anybody would think it was Ed

Balls holding her back this year.

Thank you very much.

And so to the weather.

Bone-chillingly cold yesterday -

raw and comfortless.

And, of course, at this time of year

it's mandatory to blather

on about a white Christmas,

though I have to say it felt very

mild when I got up this

morning, and I think -

and I may be wrong -

there's more warmish weather coming?

Over to Stav Danaos

in the weather studio.

It was

It was actually quite cold this

morning across the south-east, a

frosty start here and a lot of dense

fog to watch out for. Further north

a different story, a weather system

moving in, I'll break to brain and

my older air pushing into the

south-west. That wind and rain

clears away from the south and east

of the country this evening.

Overnight it should be a dry one, a

ridge of high pressure moving in so

winds will be light, sky is clear,

rest before a cold night to come.

Mist and fog to greet us on Monday

morning. It will be a fine day to

start the week thanks to that ridge

of high pressure. Some cloud pushing

into the north-west of the country

and across the far south-west,

slightly milder air here but a

chilly day to come. Then thereafter,

Tuesday onwards, it's looking very

mild and we will continue to see

these south-westerly is pushing in

the Atlantic. Some cloud with it

which will produce the odd spot of

rain.

Told you.

Now, last week on this show,

we finally learned in clear terms

what Labour's policy will be

for the British economy, immigration

and our future relationship

with the EU after Brexit.

At least, I think we did.

I was talking to Keir Starmer,

Labour's Brexit spokesman,

but the party has reached

for various hymn books on this

subject, so it's perhaps worth

pursuing a bit further

with the Shadow Home

Secretary, Diane Abbott.

Can I just ask you about the Keir

Starmer menu is it were for after we

leave the EU. He said would have to

have a close relationship with the

single market, a bit like a

modernised Norway style, is that

fair enough?

The most important

thing about our position on Brexit

is that the priority for us is jobs

and the economy. For Theresa May it

seems to be holding her Cabinet

together.

Specifics, sort of Norway

style?

Specifically we put jobs and

the economy first, specifically we

will not vote for anything that jobs

and the economy.

What does that mean

about our relationship with the

single market long-term?

It means we

were calling for a transitional

period which the Tories have

adopted...

And talking about the end

position.

We are not conducting this

negotiation but we are calling for a

transitional period and obviously

during the transitional period we

will be having a measure of staying

in the single market and staying in

the customs union.

What are buying

into the single market EU in order

to have a close relationship with

the single market, which is our

biggest market.

We are not

conducting this negotiation.

We have

had answers from your party already

which seem to bear and you appear to

be rowing back from them.

I am

reminding you of our principles and

we are going into this with

principles whereas the Government is

going into this trying to hold its

MPs together.

Keir Starmer said we

might have to make payments in to

get access to the single market, do

you agree?

We may have to but we

will wait and see how the

negotiations go.

Free movement is

part of the four freedoms of the EU,

but easy movement we agree will be

the likely Labour position, do you

know what that will mean?

I think

most people agree we have to get rid

of some of the bureaucracy around

migration, and in fact even the

Government is now agreeing because

they announced last week that they

are going to introduce a new online

system for EU nationals and they

will do away with the 85 page forms

and I think that's what we were

referencing when we talked about

easy movement. Less bureaucracy,

it's good for migrants and business.

If I was a French citizen of the

year with my burgundy passport, I

want to come to the UK, do I show my

passport or will I be questioned and

show my visa? Would it be harder to

come here after Brexit if Labour are

in power, which you might well be.

We hope we will be. Were talking

about less bureaucracy which is

better for the country as a whole

and the bureaucracy is a real

problem and that's what we reference

when we talk about easy movement.

What I'm asking is what is the

difference between the current

system where we are now when it

comes to movement from the EU to the

UK and vice versa now and what you

would like to see after we leave the

EU. You might be Home Secretary so

it's not an unfair question to ask

you.

When we leave the single

market, freedom of movement will

fall. What we will put in its place

is a reasonable management of

migration and part of that will be

moving away from the bureaucracy

that bedevils the current system.

So

it will be relatively easy for EU

citizens to come here after Brexit.

It will be relatively less

bureaucratic than proposals the

Government has made.

Straightforward

question, will they need visas?

We

will have to see how this

negotiation goes.

Surely you know

the answer to these questions, you

could be Home Secretary quite soon.

We are going to have fair rules and

reasonable management that may

involve the visa system, but we have

to see how these negotiations the

Government is undertaking go.

Do you

think the number of people coming

here from the EU will go down after

Brexit if you are in power?

You

should talk to British business and

the health service because they are

very worried about a collapse in the

number of EU migrants coming here,

social care would be in a terrible

position, the health service,

finance, education, so we will be

listening, as the Government should

be listening, to what business and

the public sector says about its

needs for Labour.

And in all those

areas you've listed, do you think we

need roughly the kind of numbers of

people coming here now to keep the

NHS and businesses running as they

have been?

Businesses and education

are saying we do need the Eastern

European migrants coming here.

So we

could see the same number of people

after Brexit coming here as they do

now.

It's not my view, I'm just

trying to point out some reality

here and the reality is that

business, the CBI, the Institute of

directors but also health, education

and social care, they say that they

need these European migrants and we

have to listen to them.

So numbers

of people coming in much the same

probably, paying in quite possibly

and being very close to the single

market, that was the Keir Starmer

message as well. That's why a lot of

your original hard-core anti-EU

voters are so upset at the moment.

We are going to look at something, a

guy on question Time who comes from

a staunch Labour seat in the north.

Their party is tending towards the

single market now which is

unrestricted migration, and that is

what this town overall voted to

stop... And her party is doing more

damage to these communities if we

are going to hear that Keir Starmer

keep on about the single market on

its way back. That's what we

wouldn't have in these working-class

traditional communities and you are

stabbing us in the back.

Why do you

think he feels like that?

You have

one clip from question time but I

speak to my colleagues who represent

constituencies all over the country

and what Labour voters are concerned

about is the chaos of the Tory

negotiations. Theresa May promised

the negotiations around trade would

take place in parallel to the

negotiations, that didn't happen.

She just lost a vote in parliament.

What our voters are concerned about

is the chaos of the Tory

negotiation.

That absolutely was one

clip but don't you think there's a

lot of people who agree with that

guy who are Labour voters across

nonmetropolitan Briton who want

Brexit to happen, don't like the

idea of being in the single market

and your party will have to jump on

one side of the fence or the other

eventually.

I think my party talks

to more Labour voters than you do,

with respect, and their concern is

the Tory negotiations are mess and

they are increasingly concerned

about what the prospects after the

jobs and the economy and those are

the issues Labour will be fighting

on.

How is campaign going for a

second referendum?

The Labour Party

hasn't supported a second

referendum.

You said to your

constituents that you wanted one. We

know Parliament will get a vote at

the end of this process but you said

yourself your constituents should

vote as well so that's why I'm

asking.

You are referencing some Lib

Dem stuff. I did say...

Here is the

Guardian. November 2016, you cannot

have access to the single market

without freedom of movement. Then

you go on to say, lots of perfectly

with -- respectable people voted for

freedom of movement. Then you say I

will argue for the right of the

electorate to vote on any deal that

is finally agreed. I will argue for

the right of the electorate to vote

for any deal finally agreed, is that

true?

It is true that Parliament

agreed last week that Parliament,

who represent the electorate... It's

about the electorate, we have a

Parliamentary system and we did

agree last week against the wishes

of the governments that Parliament

will have a final vote on the deal

and I think that's very important.

It will allow MPs to reflect the

views of the electorate.

But that is

not a second referendum. That, from

your point of view, won't happen?

We

have never supported it and we don't

support it.

You did in that quote, I

would suggest.

No, we think they

should have a say via their elected

representatives.

Do you think the

country is threatened by cuts in

police budgets across the country?

There are police chiefs up and down

the country who are concerned about

the fact we have lost 20,000 police

officers since 2010 and when you

look at an issue like terrorism, the

recent report by David Anderson on

the terrorist incidents this year,

one of the points he made was

actually neighbourhood policing is

our front line against terrorism

because it is neighbourhood police

who get the information, who are

talking to communities and help the

fight against terrorism.

Diane

Abbott, thanks very much indeed for

talking to us.

James Norton is one of Britain's

fastest-rising stars.

You might remember him

as Tommy Lee Royce in Happy Valley

or as Prince Andrei

in Tolstoy's War And Peace.

In January, he returns

to BBC One with McMafia,

a new thriller tracing the shadowy

world of globalised crime,

based on the book by Misha Glenny.

In it, he plays Alex,

the English-raised son of Russian

exiles who, despite the glamour,

have a murky past...

Hi, darling.

There's someone at the door.

Don't you answer it.

Get away from the door, Mama.

What is the McMafia?

It's a story about a young man

who gets sucked in to a huge,

globalised, interconnected web

of corruption and organised crime.

Tell me, when you were in

the business school,

what model did they teach

you for creating franchise?

McDonald's.

The use of the suffix Mc

is explained in the first episode.

David Strathairn explains how

McDonald's is the kind

of archetype for globalisation,

and now the Mafia has become this

fully globalised phenomenon.

Your character has been Anglicised.

He is a Russian from a pretty dodgy,

dangerous Russian family,

but he is Anglicised,

been brought up in Britain,

and he can't quite ever

escape being Russian.

He has made it his purpose

in life to turn his back

on his family's criminal past,

so he has a hedge fund aimed

at very ethical finance,

his girlfriend is in a similar

world, but he's constantly

drawn back to his Russian

roots and compelled...

He reads Dostoyevsky before

going to sleep and he attends these

incredibly bizarre systema classes,

which is a Russian martial art.

So at the heart of Alex is a deep

conflict about his Russianness.

It's not your first Russian

character, of course,

because you were Prince Andrei

Bolkonsky in War And Peace.

Yeah.

How much research, how deeply did

you have to research this piece

to play a convincing

Russian in London?

I've fallen in love with Russia,

I think, when we did War And Peace.

It was a slightly

different challenge.

Do you speak any Russian?

Nyet.

No.

Although my character does,

and I had to learn a lot

of Russian phonetically,

because the characters playing,

the actors playing my mum and dad,

Aleksey Serebryakov

and Mariya Shukshina,

are Russian actors and,

in the story, they speak fluent

Russian, so I did have to learn

quite a lot of Russian.

I think, when we did War And Peace,

we all fell in love.

We filmed a lot of it

in St Petersburg, and it is

an extraordinary country.

Do you think, at the moment,

we are right to fear Russia?

A lot of the organised crime

and the mobs have originated

from the fall of the Soviet Union

around Russia and the Baltic states.

Having said that, I think the whole

point of the show is it tells

the story of how the Mafia is now

fully globalised and,

whilst there are, of course,

problems of corruption in Russia,

we have a lot on our own doorstep.

London is riddled with corruption.

There's a little bit of don't be

beastly to the Russians,

because your character wants to go

straight and, if we didn't

treat him as a Russian,

and therefore as automatically

dangerous, automatically dodgy,

believe all the stuff that's written

about him because he's Russian,

he might have been

a very different person.

Absolutely.

I think he is a perfect example

of someone who is carrying this

almost burden of being Russian.

He's constantly trying to establish

himself in London as a British man,

but his Russianness keeps catching

up with him, and it's a real curse,

a taint, and it shouldn't be.

I've watched the first

tranche of all of this,

and I'm still not absolutely sure

whether you are a hero

or villain yet.

I'm sure it will become

apparent in the end.

One person who is certainly

a villain is Tommy Lee Royce

from Happy Valley -

still alive, still

festering in prison.

Seething.

Yeah, he's still alive,

and I think hopefully we're

going to see Tommy again once more.

Sally...

So Happy Valley is coming back.

Well, I think so, I hope so.

Sally has promised that she wants

to write a third series,

and I think Sarah and I and most

of the cast would jump

at the opportunity.

Absolutely.

We will see Tommy

once more, I think.

You are a well spoken,

nice boy, well-dressed.

Tommy Lee Royce, with the shaved

head and tattoos and so on,

how different did it feel

being inside that skin?

It's very different.

It made me very

grateful for my life.

He has such a sad view of the world.

He sees everything and everyone

as hostile, so it's very much a dog

eat dog world for him.

When you read all the stuff

about James Bond, do you just snort

or are you quite pleased?

I'm very pleased that

Daniel Craig is doing two more.

Very diplomatic, but it's something

that presumably you'd love to do,

if you got the chance?

You know what, it's such an iconic

role, and it's very,

very flattering and bizarre

and humbling to be even

in that conversation.

From McMafia, we know that you wear

a dinner jacket well, so that's

possibly the most important thing.

Thanks.

Thank you very much

for talking to us.

Cheers.

Thanks, Andrew.

And you can also see

James Norton in Belleville,

a new play at the Donmar Warehouse

in London, until the 3rd February.

Now, Christmas is only a few days

away, everybody's got bills to pay

and, with benefits frozen

and inflation rising,

things are tough out there.

If you're struggling to make ends

meet, there is no Cabinet minister

more important than David Gauke,

the man in charge of welfare.

He joins me now.

Let me start with this single

easiest question I've asked anybody

this year, how long have you been in

power?

We've been in power since

2010, in coalition, obviously...

Correct. The reason I ask that is,

when I talk to your colleagues about

housing and mental health and they

get offended by the state of things,

almost as if you are not responsible

for what's going on at the moment,

but you are. And you also accept

that you are the man in charge of

the safety net for people at the

bottom of the heap.

Yes, a huge

task, and it's a privilege to

perform this role. There are aspects

of the welfare state that come

together, so we worked together on

issues of housing and mental health

and so on, and it's important we

work together as a government but,

when it comes to benefits, that's

me.

When it comes to the number of

people sleeping rough tonight in

England, how many people are there,

roughly speaking, sleeping rough,

and what has happened to that figure

since you came to power?

Rough

sleeping has gone up, I can't give

you a number. As a government, we

are committed to bringing back down.

We want to halve it by 2022 and

eliminate it 2027.

Is gone up 134%

on your watch.

And we need to bring

that down. For example, we've got a

Homelessness Reduction Act, which we

have passed, a private members bill

with the government backing, which

is about trying to deal with this

upstream. It is why we will be

spending £1 billion between now and

2020 on this.

A problem that's been

created on your watch. The last

Labour government almost eliminated

rough sleeping, and it's gone

shooting up. 4000 people rough

sleeping and that is only part of

homelessness. Compared with 2010,

what about the number of children in

temporary accommodation because

their families are homeless?

I

accept that also has gone up.

It's

gone up 17% under the Conservatives.

To address it, we are spending £1

billion over the next three years on

this. We have got plans to, as I

say, eliminate homelessness by 2027.

When it comes to children, we have

actually seen a fall in the number

of children in absolute poverty

since 2010 and a fall of 200,000. It

comes to temporary accommodation

changes in the budget last month in

terms of how temporary accommodation

works, which I think the game is a

sensible change, I accept there is

much we still need to do, but the

fact is that we are seeing fewer

children in workless households,

fewer children in absolute poverty

than in 2010.

Do you accept the

Public Accounts Committee, a senior

committee of MPs, saying that part

of the reason for increasing

homelessness and rough sleeping is

connected to the sanctions regime

you are in charge of as Universal

Credit rolls out.

I think you are

bringing together a number of

things. When it comes to the

sanctions regime, we have seen fewer

sanctions over 2017 then we did in

2016 and 2015, so the number of

sanctions is coming down.

This is

the Public Accounts Committee in

February, sanctions have increased

in severity in recent years and can

have serious consequences, such as

debt, rent arrears and homelessness.

Are they wrong?

It is the case that

in the last couple of years the

number of sanctions have fallen, but

let's remember that we have a

welfare system that is based on

conditionality, and rightly so full

you pay money to people but there

are certain conditions in place. We

expect people to comply with those

conditions. In some cases, where

those conditions are not met, it is

appropriate to have a sanction. You

don't have sanctions, you don't have

conditions, and you don't change

behaviour. We've got to put this in

context where we have got 3 million

more people in work than in 2010,

and part of that is because we have

a benefits regime...

Which is more

aggressive. And it affects people's

mental health and their homelessness

as well.

It does place more

conditions on people, and one reason

why I think we've got higher levels

of employment is because we place

conditions on people. That changes

people and helps people get into

work. That isn't to say that there

are not hard cases and cases where

we get it wrong, and we want to work

hard to eliminate that. But I'd

defend the principle of saying,

look, if we're going to give money

to people to lift people out of

poverty on a sustainable basis, it's

not just about giving them money,

it's about saying, what can we do

and what can you do to get you...

I

am sure you don't get up in the

morning and think, how can I make

them have a mental breakdown or

become homeless and the rest of it,

but perhaps part of the problem is

that your department doesn't know

much about the effect of the

sanctions you are in charge of an

actual people. The National Audit

Office and Public Accounts Committee

have criticised your department for

not knowing enough about the effect

of sanctions in the real world.

We

are always looking to know more and

learn more and have an understanding

of all that we do, but I come back

to the point about having a benefits

system that is designed to get

people into work, and on the subject

of mental health, and this is a

sensitive point, and I'm not going

to pretend for one moment that we

have always got this right in every

individual case, but we do know that

getting people into work, giving

people the benefit of working, the

structure that provides, the

self-esteem that provides, work can

really help mental health as well,

and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

This is an argument where the

professionals are on the other side.

The British psychological

association and all the other

psychological societies wrote to the

press and said they were immediately

calling you to suspend the benefits

sanctions system, and there is

evidence for that linking to

increased rates of mental health

problems, and vulnerable people's

multiple needs are being

disproportionately affected.

I think

the task for us is to ensure we have

an increasingly personalised welfare

state, a system that properly

understands the circumstances that

individuals are in, and that is a

challenge for us, and I fully accept

that. But the idea of walking away

from conditionality within the

defence system, which is what those

who advocate those sanctions are

advocating, would not only be unfair

to the but compared to a lot of

claimants, because it's that

conditionality that helps to change

behaviour and get people into work.

Part of the problem you have

inherited is that so many of the

cuts made to work allowances have

been baked into the Universal Credit

system, and therefore you are

cutting the overall amount of money

for people on welfare at the moment

by about £3 billion, and everybody

seems to agree with that figure. At

the beginning, when Universal Credit

was announced in 2010, your

department said it would lift

350,000 children out of poverty but

we can talk about child poverty but

a few years later, it dropped to

150,000.

It's difficult to make an

assessment at the moment, but

Universal Credit is important here.

What Universal Credit will do is

help to get more people into work.

You made the assessment in 2010 and

2014, and you are not revealing a

number now, because the truth is the

way you are in committing this

system is you are going to put more

children into poverty, not fewer. --

the way you are implementing this

system for the

if you look at our

record...

It's true, isn't it?

We

have lifted more children out of

absolute poverty, and the fact

remains that Universal Credit is

already a very effective means by

which we can get more people into

work and more people in work

progressing in work. That's the best

way of lifting people...

I'm going

to weed out the well-known Marxist

agitator group, the Institute for

Fiscal Studies at the struggle to

reach out and to a man and woman.

The government should not be

surprised if absolute child poverty

rises.

Every region is predicting a

rise in child poverty and around

three quarters of that increase,

400,000 children is attributable to

benefit changes.

I have made the

point that the Institute for Fiscal

Studies, a fine organisation, but it

has been increasing increases in

child poverty. Years which hasn't

happened. Why has that not happened?

We have got an economy created on

jobs and, in particular, pay at the

lower end has risen faster than

elsewhere. It is why income

inequality has fallen in the last

seven years and, in order to address

this issue of child poverty, what is

absolutely key is we continue to

have a job-creating economy and we

see pay rising at the bottom end.

That is what has happened over the

last seven years and what we need to

continue to see.

People can make

their judgments about that, but let

me ask you about auto enrolment in

pensions for 900,000 youngish people

are being automatically enrolled

into pension schemes and white?

What

we have seen over the last few

years, is much greater saving for

pensions. -- automatically enrolled

into pension schemes, so why? We are

seeing increases would we want to

extend that benefit to people under

the age of 22

18-year-old...

We are

lowering that to 18, that the we are

making today. That, I think, will

get more people into the habit of

saving and it will mean younger

people will be saving for extra

years, so that'll be significant

when it comes to their retirement,

and so extending the benefit of auto

enrolment, which I think everybody

agrees has been a huge success, is

an important next step. Over the

next couple of years, we will see

increases in contribution rates.

That might put people off.

The

challenge is to get the balance

right. We believe the next years,

the increase in contribution rates

for employers and employees strike

that balance. The evidence so far is

that the opt out rates of auto

enrolment have been lower than

people expected, and in particular

for younger people, so people in

their 20s have been saving more than

anybody expected. That's

encouraging, and that builds on that

success.

This week, you sit around

the Cabinet table with the Prime

Minister and she asked each one of

you, David, are you a con verger or

a diverter?

My view is that the

British people make a decision...

It's more complex than that. I

think, as the Prime Minister has

rightly said, we are not looking for

an arrangement so that essentially

it is continuity as far as the end

state is concerned. But it is also

important that we maximise our

access to the European markets,

really important.

Eating cake, still

have cake.

We are going to have a

negotiation and my view is we need

to get the right result for the UK.

I think Theresa May is the right

person to deliver that.

Thank you

for talking to us.

Well, as I said at the top

of the show, it's been quite a year.

This is the moment

when we look back over

the highlights and low moments,

but here and now we can do it

entirely through the prism of Sunday

mornings, music and all.

Politics remains turbulent.

Theresa May seems

almost unchallenged.

That story about misfiring nuclear

missile, did you know that

misfire had occurred?

I have absolute faith

in our Trident missiles.

Prime Minister, did you know?

There were tests that

take place all the time.

I'm not going to get

an answer to this.

# Just pack our bags and run as fast

as we can... #.

Brexit tensions are bubbling...

We want to negotiate a good deal

with the European Union.

She appears to be heading us

in the direction of a sort

of bargain basement economy

on the shores of Europe.

I'm not going to sit back

while Scotland is driven off

a hard Brexit cliff edge.

# When I heard that sound

# When the walls came down

# I was thinking about you...#

Kenneth Brown has said he cast

you because he wanted somebody

who could be silent.

He cast me because he wanted

someone to be silent?

Yes!

It's like he never met me at

all.

Do you think hell is real?

Is hell there?

Oh, that's a very major question

for a Sunday morning...

Sunday morning question.

Yes, it's a very Sunday

morning question!

Thanks, Andrew.

Thank you, man.

# When the walls were caving in #.

It's lovely talking

to you too, Andrew.

All the best.

You're joking!

Not another one!

# Oh woman don't treat me so mean #.

There's a reason to talking

about strong and stable

leadership and having a strong

and stable government.

It's just that people can listen

to that kind of thing

and think it's a bit robotic.

No, it's, it's...

Do you think killing the leader

of Isis can be helpful

for a political solution?

I think the leader of Isis not

being around would be helpful

and I'm no supporter or defender

in anyway whatsoever of Isis.

We all know it's the truth,

the Prime Minister is heading

for a colossal coronation.

I predict that after this election,

Ukip could be bigger

than it's ever been before.

# Well I guess if you say so... #.

Millions of people want answers.

Time this morning to

probe a little further.

How much does that cost?

How much money do you intend

to borrow for the next ten years?

Do you regret what you

said about the IRA?

It was 34 years ago, I had a rather

splendid afro at the time.

I don't have the same hairstyle

and I don't have the same views.

The standard says that you should be

seen within four hours.

When was the last time the NHS

in England hit that target?

Well, we haven't hit

it for over two years.

It's not acceptable.

Are you a Marxist?

MUMBLES.

I believe there's a lot to learn...

Was that a no or yes?

I couldn't work it out.

OK, well I'll tell you.

I believe there's a lot to learn

from reading Capital.

People hate this policy

and it makes them very,

very nervous indeed.

Is there any chance at all you're

going to look at it again?

No.

Tonight at ten, Theresa May

is forced to backtrack on one

of her key manifesto pledges.

Nothing has changed.

Nothing has changed!

These are very angry times.

Is there anything

on which we can agree?

THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER.

You've just said, for example,

that I want to negotiate

the future of the Falklands.

That is

BLEEP,

I did not.

It's what?

Say it again, come on!

That is untrue.

I want to declare that I'm

a feminist, I absolutely believe...

SNIGGERS.

I do! I believe completely in

women's rights.

This is your moment on live

television to say that

I will stick by my principles.

I, Nigel Farage, would not

accept this pension.

Of course I would take it.

I've said that right from day one.

You would take it?!

Well, of course.

This is the sort of

hypocrisy we see...

It is not...

I've just voted

to get rid of my job.

I was the turkey that

voted for Christmas!

# Sometimes I feel like throwing my

hands up in the air

# I know I can count on you #.

We spent so much time talking

about the things that

we disagree with each other on,

and we're very bad at actually just

pausing for second and focusing

on those things, those fundamental

things, that bind us together.

# The going gets so hard but I know

you've got the love,

# You've got the love

# Said you've got the love #.

The Conservatives

are the largest party.

Note, they don't have

an overall majority.

# We laughed and we roared,

we staggered and we fell #.

Theresa May is a dead woman walking.

It's just how long she's

going to remain on death row.

I don't agree with that.

She won the biggest

share of the vote since,

I think, the 1987 election.

You lost the election,

you accept that?

We didn't win the election.

OK!

If you didn't win it,

the Prime Minister was planning

to sack you, apparently.

Yes, it's true that my role

in the election campaign was not

the one I would have liked it to be.

Boris Johnson has lobbed a verbal

firework into the Brexit debate.

Oh, Boris!

I don't want him managing

the Brexit process.

This is back-seat

driving, in effect.

Yes, you could call

it back-seat driving.

I just don't understand why

she hasn't fired him.

Is he unsackable?

SHE CHUCKLES.

Let's be very clear...

What happens if we don't get a deal?

No deal would be a very,

very bad outcome for Britain.

It would be less good

than a good deal.

We can be sure it would be A deal.

To some, he is the arch defender

of the Jewish people.

To others, he's a bellicose

hardliner dedicated to expanding

the very settlement seen

by the Palestinian Arabs

as their obstacle to peace,

and he joins me now.

Welcome, Prime Minister.

The good part was shorter

than the bad part.

Thank you for having me, Andrew.

I'm delighted to be in one

of my favourite TV programmes.

I was shocked and very

disappointed, obviously.

Yes, I did think I was going to win,

so did nearly everybody else.

Do you have any numbers about how

much that's going to cost?

Well Andrew, it's a big abacus

that I'm working on.

You always get more

than you have to pay out...

I was just wanting a number.

Just one little number!

You're asking the wrong questions.

Where are all these

unemployed people?

There are no unemployed people.

There's 1.4 million unemployed

people in this country.

Is it OK to watch porn at work?

Well...

Can I ask you whether this agreement

this week is actually real.

No, no, it is conditional

on an outcome.

No, I'm afraid that

wasn't quite right.

This was a statement of intent

more than anything else.

It was much more a statement

of intent than it was

a legally enforceable thing.

# Take a look at my face

for the last time

# I never knew you

# You never knew me

# Say hello goodbye #.

Then we moved over to fruit cakes

and of course the great moment came

in 2001 when the Queen gave us

the most imperial chocolate...

erm, fruitcake, she gave us.

Are you going to put a collar back

on again now, Archbishop?

Andrew, I promised that when Mugabe

goes, I'd put my collar on so I have

no choice but to put it back on.

# Say hello, wave goodbye #.

And watching that were

Tim Shipman, Emma Barnett

and Rachel Johnson,

who have rejoined us.

Emma, you got the first interview

with Theresa May immediately after

the election result and she was very

emotional, were you convinced?

We

talked about what she would do when

the exit poll came in, and Rachel

was telling me some people were

texting her with May Day, she says

she was devastated and I said

devastated enough to shed a tear,

and she did say she cried and had a

moment with her husband Philip. I

was very interested to learn the

human reaction of someone when

they've taken the biggest political

gamble of their life.

Absolutely,

what about Boris's, and looking

ahead to 2018?

Are you looking at

me?

Yes, and I got a very hard

stare.

I think, as you will read in

the Sunday Times today, he's

brimming with this indelible

positivity about the future. This is

where he wants to take the Cabinet,

and we will see how that goes next

week.

Tim, you've written two

volumes about the extraordinary

times we are living in, do you think

there will be a third on about 2018?

I hope not, I promised my wife there

wouldn't be but watching that gives

you post-traumatic stress disorder.

It would be pretty rash to predict

it will be dull in 2018.

Emma, what

do you predict for next year?

Theresa May clinging on... We can

never predict what will happen but I

would say we all have to work very

hard because I do think people,

however you voted in the referendum,

didn't vote to be bought and so to

keep Brexit interesting...

It's

jolly hard work! We do our best.

Very briefly Rachel, you joined the

Lib Dems famously, we haven't talked

a lot about them, are you committed

to that cause?

The Lib Dems didn't

have a stellar year and I think to

move the question on, one of my

predictions for next year is that

sadly I don't think we will see the

emergence of a centre-left party or

even centre-right party, to occupy

this enormous space in the middle

ground between the two extremes we

are now seeing driving politics.

And

that sage thought is the last

political commentary from the Andrew

Marr Show this year.

Coming up later this morning,

Sarah Smith will be

talking to the outspoken

Brexiteer Nadine Dorries

about what else but the Brexit

negotiations, and she'll be talking

to the rebel's rebel,

father of the House

of Commons Ken Clarke.

That's the Sunday Politics

at 11am here on BBC One.

That's the end of the show.

Thanks for watching,

and have a really lovely Christmas.

We leave you with the BBC singers

conducted by Andrew Nethsingha.

This is The Holly And The Ivy.

See you on the 7th

of January in 2018.

# The holly and the ivy

Now both are full well grown

# Of all the trees

that are in the wood

# The holly bears the crown.

# Oh, the rising of the sun

The running of the deer

# The playing of the merry organ

Sweet singing in the choir

# The holly bears a blossom

as white as lily flower

# And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ

to be our sweet saviour.

# Oh, the rising of the sun

The running of the deer

# The playing of the merry organ

Sweet singing in the choir

# The holly bears a bark

as bitter as any gall

# And Mary bore sweet Jesus Christ

for to redeem us all

# Oh, the rising of the sun

The running of the deer

# The playing of the merry organ

Sweet singing in the choir

# Sweet singing in the choir.