07/01/2018 The Andrew Marr Show

Morning, and welcome

to the new political year.

Politics in this country's become

an unpredictable white knuckle ride,

from the rise of Jeremy Corbyn

in 2015 to the Brexit referendum

the following year and the shock

of last year's general election.

None of this is business as usual.

2018 will be decisive

in the argument about how we leave

the EU but at least we have a "very

stable genius" in the White House.

And he's coming to

visit us this year.

Now, there's something

to look forward to.

My main guest this week,

in the first of our New Year

leaders' interviews,

is the Prime Minister, Theresa May.

I've been talking to her

about the NHS winter crisis and,

in the studio on the same subject,

we have the Shadow Health

Secretary Jonathan Ashworth.

And still really on the subject

of political leadership,

Kristin Scott Thomas,

playing Clementine Churchill,

and Joe Wright, director

of a new film about Winston,

during the darkest days of the war.

Let me see your true

qualities, your courage.

My poor judgment.

Your lack of vanity.

My iron will.

Your sense of humour.

Ho ho ho.

Plus, in case you need waking up,

we will have some great music

from Franz Ferdinand,

back with a new album.

# Living our lives in paper

cages

# Step out #.

Before that, here to review

the news, two political observers

who have seen it all before -

the editor of the Spectator,

Fraser Nelson, and the

Guardian's Polly Toynbee.

All of that after the news

with Roger Johnson.

Good morning.

Theresa May will abandon plans set

out in her election manifesto

for MPs to get a vote on overturning

the fox hunting ban.

In an interview on this

programme she confirmed

she would go back on her pledge,

meaning MPs cannot vote

on the issue until 2022 -

when the next general election

will be held.

The fox hunting ban was introduced

by the Labour government in 2004.

The Prime Minister is to carry out

a cabinet reshuffle tomorrow.

It's not known yet what changes

and appointments Theresa May

will make, but it's being reported

that up to six ministers could

either lose their jobs or be moved.

A Downing Street source has

described such stories as "pure

speculation" and "guesswork".

Some of the UK's largest retailers

have voluntarily agreed to stop

selling acids and corrosive

substances to customers

under 18 years old.

Thousands of independent

hardware shops are also

expected to follow suit.

Ministers hope the measure

will help stop the rise

in attacks until new laws

are considered by Parliament.

Plans to create a new "Northern

Forest" along a belt

spanning Manchester,

Leeds and Bradford have been

announced by the government.

It will see new woods planted

near towns and river

valleys liable to flooding.

The Woodland Trust is running

the project and will raise most

of the £500 million

it is expected to cost

over the next 25 years.

And we'll have more details on that

later in the programme.

Germany's Christian Democrats -

led by the Chancellor,

Angela Merkel - will begin five days

of exploratory talks today

on forming a coalition government

with the Social Democrats.

Mrs Merkel

has been trying to build

a new coalition since September -

after her party lost more than 60

seats in the parliamentary

elections.

Nasa's longest serving

astronaut, John Young,

has died at the age of 87.

He was one of just 12 men who have

walked on the moon -

and he flew the first

space shuttle mission.

Former Commander of

the International Space Station

Chris Hadfield has described him

as an inspiration.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC One

is at one o'clock.

Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you.

Lots to talk about on the front

pages and almost every paper has a

different story. The Sunday

Telegraph is going with the

reshuffle, choral Justine Greening

in the headlines. The Sunday Times

has its own investigation into

Google and how they are using drug

addicts who are looking for help to

sell the help on. There is a war

going on between the paper press and

the online organisations. There is

the very stable genius himself,

glaring from the front page of the

Observer. The Mail on Sunday, the

Prime Minister is disgusted about

the Toby Young tweeting story but is

going to keep him. Amber Sunday

Express, the Prime Minister is

serious about the John Worboys rape

story. Those two stories in the

interview I've done with and lots

more to talk about there but we are

going to start, Fraser, with the big

politics today, we don't really know

the details but we know there is

going to be a reshuffle and probably

quite a big one tomorrow and

Tuesday.

Since the election be

established wisdom was that Theresa

May was not strong enough to do a

reshuffle, that she was more a

prisoner of her cabinet than the

architect of it but now it is said

she is going to move at least six

cabinet members tomorrow.

We have to

have a huge grain of salt about

these stories because Number Ten are

not briefing who's going to go and

stay but the suggestion is that all

the big beasts stay, so Boris

Johnson, Michael Gove, the

Chancellor Philip Hammond, are

likely to stay in post will be the

more junior Cabinet ministers.

Anyone who anyone has ever heard was

going to stay in place. I think this

will be a reshuffle of absolute

insignificance. People like us will

mull over it endlessly on it is a

Westminster bubble story. Most

people can't name Cabinet ministers

anyway. And poor Justine Greening if

for the chop, who knows? Her problem

is that the Treasury has cut the

money for schools and the Tory head

office discovered in their analysis

of the election that this was very

important, that parents have got the

message at the school gates during

the election campaign, that they

were losing teachers and losing

teaching assistants.

Fraser, if this

is insignificant for most members of

the public, why is she doing it?

I

don't think it is insignificant. I

think she emerges this year being

that a stronger place than any point

since the general election. She has

walked through fire and the upsets

she has been through in the last

four months. She is now able to

mould the cabinet in a way she was

seen as too weak to do but no normal

person can me more than five owners

of the Cabinet, which is always the

case in British politics, but the

Prime Minister is willing to take

control.

She dare not move Boris, a

disaster, David Davis, who has been

sidelined, a hollowed out job. She

is very stuck with balancing

Brexiteers...

She has got the pro Brexit and

Brexit sceptic groups balance.

If

the suggestion is that she brings in

Suella Fernandes, a rabid Brexit

person, she's going to have to bring

in some strong remainder after we

have lost Damian Green, a very

strong remain it.

Talking about

political balance and appointments,

the other big story people have been

fascinated by is Toby Young, wanna

Fraser Nelson's columnists, so I'm

going to go to Poly first because

there was a big story about him in

the Mail on Sunday.

Yet more

absolutely disgusted jokes, this one

too obscene to mention at this

hour of the morning. A shame in a

way because it is so graphically

disgusting that it proves that as a

character he is unsuited to any kind

of official post. If you want to be

a columnist, fine. He is rising 50.

They were some years ago. Should

there not be a statute of

limitations?

He was rising 50 and

has made a reputation of being a

wild controversial... He was

supposed to be here today but I

think either he was Fritz or he was

so busy with his fingers does or

stood -- exhausted.

These are

historic Tantobie has set up Free

Schools. He is a journalist like you

eat it up the difference between him

and us is that he actually went out

there to improve the situation...

He

wanted to create a school for his

kids.

Better than sending them

private, as some columnists I could

mention. He set it up for 2000 other

children as well as his kids. Is

devoted himself to education reform

and I can't work out why something

he wrote after a glass wine eight

years ago should define him more

than what he does his life.

The

point is, his stock in trade has

always been to be shocking and

disgusting and things like eugenics,

he believes that the poor should

have their embryos screened to weed

out the stupid. He believes we live

in a meritocracy. He believes those

at the top are there genetically.

One of the things about Toby Young

is that people talk about him whole

time and should be talking about

more important subjects so let's

move on. I think this is the MHS

crisis.

We are in the traditional

January what shall we do with the

NHS? Various columnists are writing.

A columnist in the Telegraph says

the solution is quite obvious, you

need to harness other forms of

finance from outside. If people are

willing to pay for the NHS... I

can't work out why I should receive

free GP appointments when I can and

would willingly pay for it... She

says this is the obvious solution

but if ministers think this is

politically impossible, you are

going to have to see a radical

shake-up.

Maurice Saatchi in the

Mail on Sunday says there should be

a Royal commission to persuade both

parties that we need a different

kind of funding.

That always means

going the American route, some form

of insurance. That is what Janet

Davies after. They talk about new

funding coming in from private

sources, they mean people being

copayments that all of that and this

always happens, the moment that the

Tory party hits the buffers, which

they always do for underfunding the

NHS. It becomes an excuse for

saying, it doesn't work. When Labour

got up to European standards of

spending, the same numbers of

doctors, beds, nurses, it did fine.

It has fallen back on funding and is

now in crisis. That gives the excuse

to all of you Tories. But bring it

on because it would...

It means more

money, the question is who can come

up with it either of those who can

afford to pay should be asked to

pay.

The public will not be on your

side, it will be the quickest route

out of power for the Tories.

Camilla

Cavendish?

She knows about it

because she has worked in NHS policy

and she says, yes, it definitely

needs more money to talk she is a

Tory whip the Cameron's policy unit,

says it definitely needs more money

and she also says it has been

fragmented in ways that makes no

sense for a patient tried to find

their way through, partly because of

the 2012 disastrous Lansley at that

further blew it apart. At the

moment, the head of the NHS in

England is struggling to reunite it

and she supports that and I think

she is right.

Another story that has

gripped people is the so-called

black cab rapist John Worboys being

let out of prison. There was an

editorial in the Sunday Telegraph or

the Sunday Times?

The Sunday

Telegraph and it says we are going

to find out quite soon why he was

let out. There was a bit of mystery.

Legally we are not supposed to know.

Was going to be a change because it

is so baffling, when his victims at

the time were told there was no way

he would come out, it is worth a

life sentence, and all of a

submitters changed and they are

going to get answers. The Sunday

Telegraph also says at the end,

given that he was only prosecuted

for a small numbers of the victims

the police associate for him,

perhaps it can be prosecuted again

for those. There was a chance it

could be read right.

There was a

broad hint on that subject from the

Prime Minister in the interview we

are going to be showing in a minute.

You have a tablet, we call them

these days, not anything else, from

the independent.

Yet another story.

You don't find these a lot of the

Tory papers but you find yet another

Brexit story. 2300 EU academics are

resigning from some of our leading

universities, Oxford, King's College

London more than anywhere else,

warnings over UK University

Brexiters. We rely on tides

everywhere for research, from

everything. Bad has been one of the

great successes of the EU, melding

and uniting research project. 2300

leave, and 19% increase, that is

pretty alarming.

There was a line

over here saying, Oxford has lost

record numbers but has also gained

record numbers, so that's the thing.

EU nationals have always gone home.

The question is, do even more

arrive?

19%.

We have run out of time

and I would like to move on from EU

to the US and this extraordinary

Trump story, a good old-fashioned

book, an old-fashioned reporter

sitting in a corridor taking notes,

has blown everyone away for days

now. The Mail on Sunday has an

interesting splash.

If even a

fraction of the stories in this

extraordinary book turned out to be

true, I think Trump is in real

trouble.

And we get Mike Pence?

We

get Mike Pence, which is wonderful.

His base is very solid but it is too

small. Here we are that the Royals

are being dragged into this, that he

wants a trade deal... He won't give

a trade deal to us unless he gets an

invitation to Harry's wedding.

The

other thing the book tells us is

that he likes to sit in his bed at

6:30pm with a cheeseburger in front

of three screens.

Wonderfully, the

Sun is offering its readers the

chance to do that, win a chance to

be the president fluoridated top if

you are the lucky winner, the Sun

will book you into a hotel...

You

have to go to bed at 6:30pm like

him.

And it shows one screen but I

hope you get three. It is nice to

think anyone in this country can

experience this.

The really

difficult quiz that you have to

answer correctly to win these

cheeseburgers is, what is the name

of Trump's wife, Melania, Doris or

Peggy?

Answers on a postcard!

Thank

you both very much indeed.

And so to the weather,

and there's only one consolation

as you get up and freeze this

morning - at least you're not living

in the United States,

where it's been snowing

even in the Deep South.

even in the Deep South.

Over to Stav Danaos

in the weather studio.

Yes indeed, it's been bitterly cold

there. We have our own Arctic blast

this week but if you don't mind the

cold it has been glorious with

plenty of sunshine around. There is

a keen breeze across the south and

south-east, that will make it feel

quite raw and bitter. Outbreaks of

rain affecting the Northern Isles,

particularly for Shetland, but

elsewhere it is dry with

temperatures barely getting above

freezing in parts of Scotland. High

pressure still with us overnight,

there will be light winds across

central and northern areas with a

widespread frost forming once again.

More of a breeze further south and

that will introduce more cloud

across southern counties. Less cold

here, very cold further north. We

start the new working week on a cold

and frosty note once again. The

cloud in the south will continue to

creep northwards, a few spots of

drizzle in places so quite grey and

cold here but glorious sunshine

further north. Into Tuesday cloudy

picture the north and a weather

front arriving across the west will

introduce outbreaks of rain,

eventually turning

introduce outbreaks of rain,

eventually turning milder too.

More

cobalt blue over Britain than I have

seen for a long time.

Gary Oldman is a hot favourite

for Oscar glory this year.

His mesmerising performance

as Winston Churchill

in Darkest Hour is a triumph

of both acting and

physical transformation.

Oldman is well matched

by Kristin Scott Thomas,

who plays Clemmie Churchill,

a vital ally to her husband

throughout the war.

Recently, I caught up with Kristin

and the film's director, Joe Wright,

who began by explaining

what compelled him

to make this movie.

We are looking at a collapse of

Western Europe in the next few days.

You ask what is our aim.

Victory at all costs.

You are suggesting we

are somehow winning.

We're not.

Is it true we're in full retreat?

All our forces are now in Dunkirk,

where we cannot reach them.

They are pushing us into the sea.

I tried to make something

that was inherently cinematic

that kind of played like a political

thriller really, and so had that

kind of pace and that

kind of rhythm, and had

the highest stakes possible.

Kristin, you have said

you were asked to play

Clemmie Churchill before,

presumably because you look quite

like her, particularly when you've

got that extraordinary hair on.

She had a very particular hairstyle,

which she became famous

for with the curly bits on top,

and I think that was

inspired by her visits

to the factories during the war,

where all of the girls

in the factories would put

their hair in pin curls and tie

up a headscarf on top

and she thought this was rather good

so she would make her own sort

of her head dresses

which became her trademark.

I knew even then that his priority

would be public life,

but it worried a young girl greatly,

this wretched thought

of eternally coming second,

but so it has proven to be.

And now, today, we are

to receive our reward.

Proof that our small sacrifice

was for a far, far greater good.

I give you your father,

my beloved husband,

the Prime Minister...

ALL: The Prime Minister!

Here's to, erm...

To not beggar-in it up.

ALL: Not beggar-in it up!

She is a very, very

tough figure as well.

She understands Churchill,

she's a very, I suppose,

unfashionable figure to be playing

because here is a wife who has

surrendered much of her life

for her husband's public role.

Actually she was incredibly

important to him because

she stood up to him.

She gave as good as she got.

She was, as you say, tough.

She was a brilliant woman -

she must have been a brilliant woman

because otherwise how on earth

is Winston Churchill going to bear

living with somebody

who isn't bright enough?

Absolutely, and the nature

of their relationship is based

on mutual teasing and private jokes.

I mean, like a lot of upper-class

figures in those days,

they sleep apart but she's

touching him and teasing

him the whole time.

I think that's what drew me to Joe's

film, that sense of humour,

that sort of wicked twinkle

and the unsaid understandings...

The playfulness and the pick-pick.

I loved that and it brought them

to life, and I think it's very

important to see that side

of Winston Churchill's character.

I mean we hear all his jokes

and his put-downs, but to see that

in a really tender way,

I thought that was really

interesting to go from that

to making these momentous decisions.

It's your own party to him,

you'll have to prove yourself.

I'm getting the job only

because the ship is sinking.

It's not a gift, it's revenge.

Let me see your true

qualities, your courage.

My poor judgment.

Your lack of vanity.

My iron will.

Your sense of humour.

Ho-ho-ho.

Do you think it's true to say that

without Clemmie behind him,

Winston Churchill could not have

done what he did?

I think he would've been

a very different person,

and I think that together

they really supported each other.

They both suffered from depression

and Winston Churchill's depression

is well documented and everyone

knows about his black dog,

yeah, but people don't

know so much about hers.

And I think that they understood

what it was like to fall

down that black hole,

and that's why perhaps

they were so helpful to each other.

So far as I can see,

you've been very faithful

to the true story in lots of ways.

There was one moment where I jibbed,

where Churchill goes down

onto a tube train and takes a kind

of sample of the passengers

in the tube station -

should we do a deal

with Hitler or not.

The scene itself was

a fictionalisation of something that

I consider to be kind of true

which is that he was taking

the temperature of the British

public, and discovering

that they were supportive

of pursuing a policy

of war with Hitler.

Also he would go AWOL for hours

at an end and drive his secretaries

mad, and then he'd pop up in bomb

sites and talk to the public

and sometimes cry with

the public as well.

He was a very emotional man

so I felt I could bring all of that

together in this kind

of romanticised moment

of wish fulfilment.

Well, I'm going to cast any

BBC neutrality to one

side and say I loved it,

I was blubbing my way through.

It was a great, great film.

Joe, Kristin, thanks very much

indeed for talking to us.

And Darkest Hour opens

in cinemas this Friday.

This winter's NHS crisis is real:

it's not simply about headlines

and statistics but about life

and death on the

hospital front line.

Labour has savaged the Government

and promises more money,

but does it really have

an alternative strategy?

The Shadow Health Secretary

Jonathan Ashworth joins me.

Welcome. First of all do you

essentially blamed ministers for

what's going on?

Yes, this crisis of

this magnitude was entirely

predictable and indeed entirely

preventable. Remember, we are now in

the eighth year of tight austerity

on NHS finances, we have seen

community health services cut back,

a reduction in district nurses, a

reduction of around 14,000 beds,

many community services have been

privatised with money going to

private companies and not the front

line, and we have seen deeply savage

cuts to our social care sector.

Some

ministers are responsible, can you

remind me who's in charge of the NHS

in Wales.

Well, it's a Labour

government.

When is the last time in

Wales the NHS hit its A&E targets.

They are under pressure but they

have not cancelled operations like

in England.

When was the last time

they hit their target?

When was the

last time the NHS in Wales was given

a sufficient level of funding?

Remember this is a government that's

cutting the money across the board

and giving tighter financial

settlements to the health service in

England and Wales.

I repeat the

question, have you any idea the last

time they hit their A&E targets in

Wales?

They have not cancelled their

operations.

It is 2008, ten years of

missed targets.

There is no black

alert in Welsh hospitals and buy

have a much

better record than England has on

social care because they are

spending 8% more on social care in

Wales and not savagely cutting the

budget is like the Tory government

in England.

Let me read you what the

Royal College of medicine says, it

is unsafe, undignified and

distressing for patients and their

family members, that is Wales under

Labour now.

And if there was a

Labour government across the UK we

would be putting six Ilion pounds

extra into the health service and

there would be Barnett consequential

is which would mean Wales would get

more as well.

The Welsh Health

Secretary says that Wales has 8%

better funding than England.

On

social care.

Social care and health

in general.

8% extra on social care

in Wales.

This says health and

social care in Wales is about 8%

more now than England per head and

that Wales is in the best possible

position to deal with winter

pressures. You haven't met your

cancer targets for ten years, you

haven't met A&E targets for ten

years. On A&E targets you are doing

worse in Wales than the Tories are

doing with less money in England.

An

overall settlement for Wales is

being reduced and cut back and if

there was a Labour government across

the UK we would be putting more

money into the NHS which would have

Barnett consequential 's.

Looking at

the IFF assessment of your manifesto

and what the Tories have offered, it

is only 0.8% difference in what you

would put in. You would have a 2%

increase, they would have a 1.2%

increase, hardly a transformational

difference.

I think in 2018 it would

be a substantial difference when you

consider the NHS is going through

the tightest squeeze in its history.

Money in England will be falling

next year. It would be around £6

billion. In England for 2018, we

will be spending around 126 billion,

they are spending around 121. It has

gone up slightly since the

Chancellor 's budget announcement

but it is still a substantial

increase because we would put

forward an extra £6 billion a year

in our manifesto. Last year the

Conservatives make promises about

real terms increases on ahead for

head basis which they are not going

to hit.

Almost every year, and I can

remember under Labour as well as the

Tories, there is a winter crisis. I

agree this one is bigger but it

happens again and again and it

appears we go through this cycle.

Perhaps at some point as the papers

have been suggesting, we need a

different way of funding the NHS. An

earmarked tax, mobilise public

support for paying for the NHS in a

different way than we are at the

moment.

We have not had a winter

crisis on this scale for years and

years and it's because of the cuts,

because at a local level we haven't

been able to put proper management

in the cusp the Lansley act blew

apart decision making and planning

at a local level. Theresa May makes

a perfunctory apology but doesn't

change her plan. She hasn't got a

plan to get the people of the

trolleys in corridors. Those elderly

people in January being treated in

ambulances. Her only plan apparently

is to promote this Health Secretary.

She should be demoting this Health

Secretary, if she promotes him

tomorrow it's a betrayal of those

75,000 people in the back of

ambulances.

What I was asking is

whether you have a bigger vision for

the NHS which is about more than a

0.8% increase in funding.

It is a

substantial increase in funding, £6

billion. To improve health in this

country isn't just about fixing

what's happening in our hospitals,

it's about changing the way in which

we deliver health out in the

community so we have got to get this

fragmented system, the fragmentation

which has been exacerbated by Andrew

Lansley's with forms. We've got to

get health authorities working more

closely with different community

health authorities. We have to go

back to a system where they are more

integrated, we cannot go down this

American-style route which the

Government wants to go down.

And you

want to get rid of private provision

in hospitals, don't you?

We have got

a crazy situation where Virgin can

win billions of pounds worth of

contracts, and when it doesn't win a

contract in Surrey can sue the NHS

and force the NHS to settle out of

court. That money should be going to

patients.

How quickly do you want to

get rid of private provision in NHS

hospitals?

As quickly as possible

but our priority coming in has got

to be to stabilise the service. We

are short of 40,000 nurses, we have

vacancies for 100,000 across the

NHS, we have to deal with those as

well and of course we want to change

the structures and get more of an

integrated health service at a local

level. David Cameron's former

adviser is recognising this

fragmentation at a local level is

not working.

The private providers

are doing about a third of a lot of

elective surgery at the moment. Some

people are worried if they are taken

out quickly there will be a big gap.

They are doing the work to hit the

targets. Actually the targets on

elective surgery will not be hit

because we just cancelled them and

what I will be saying to the

Government is if you are telling

hospital trusts to cancel elective

operations, that will affect their

deficits going forward as well.

We

are running out of time, but Theresa

May will say shortly she will stand

by Toby Young, what is your message?

These tweets from Toby Young are

disgusting, sexist, she should get

rid of him.

Jonathan Ashworth, thank

you very much indeed.

Through much of last year

Theresa May was being treated

as stop-gap Prime Minister -

someone who after the blunder

of the 2017 election would soon be

replaced by another Conservative.

But somehow, after concluding

the first phase of the Brexit

negotiations, it doesn't quite feel

that way now and, indeed,

she is about to dispatch

a clutch of her ministers

as she reshapes the Government.

Speaking to her yesterday in her

constituency, I began by asking

whether she was really strong enough

for a proper reshuffle.

Well, it's no prizes for guessing,

Andrew, that obviously

Damian Green's departure before

Christmas means that some changes do

have to be made and I will be

making some changes.

But much though you would love me

to talk about them in detail

here on the BBC, I'm afraid

I won't be doing that.

But can you at least tell us,

is it going to be quite soon?

It will be soon, yes.

Right, we've got that at least.

Can I ask you about one of the big

stories around at the moment,

the black cab taxi rapist

John Worboys's release?

Do you understand why so many people

up and down the country

are outraged about this?

I do absolutely and, in fact,

I know somebody who was one

of his victims and who was not

contacted, and first heard

of what was happening

through the media, so I recognise

why people are so concerned

about this, and that's why

I think it's right...

Obviously, the Parole Board operates

independently but I think it's right

that we as a Government are saying

that we should look at the question

of openness and that we should

look at the whole issue,

too, of how victims are kept

in touch with what is happening.

So the Secretary of State

for Justice is going to be

doing exactly that.

Are you going to be looking again

at the whole question of these

decisions being taken

by the Parole Board in secret?

Because the public would

like to know why this

man is being released.

Are there any justifications for it?

Well, I think this question

of openness is exactly one

of the issues that we have

to look at.

And, as I say...

And what's your own

instinct, can I ask?

Well, my instinct is that people

do want to know more

about why decisions are taken

in the way they're taken.

But let's look at this properly,

and that is exactly

what we are going to do

as a Government.

But I fully recognise why people

are concerned about this.

Two of the victims had an appalling

experience at the hands

of the Metropolitan Police.

They felt they were not being taken

seriously and they took the police

to court back in 2014,

and they won their case.

But since then, they have been

pursued by the police,

backed by your government,

all the way up to the Supreme Court.

That's surely wrong.

Well, look, I'm not going to comment

on individual cases.

But obviously, when these things

are a matter for the courts,

it is for the courts to determine

what is right.

I think what's important

is when you look at issues

of this sort in the round,

we want to ensure that victims feel

confident enough to come forward,

so that they feel confident

that the police will take

action, and confident

that they will get justice.

But these victims have been

mocked and mistreated.

You're always on the

side of the victims.

In this case, given what they've

been through, given they are now

at the Supreme Court,

isn't it right just simply to drop

the case and let them get

on with their lives?

This is an issue that is

for the courts, Andrew,

but what I recognise

is the importance -

and this is why...

You say I've talked about victims

in the past, and absolutely,

because I think these sorts

of issues, these sorts of crimes

that are being committed are ones

where all too often,

people have not felt

able to come forward,

because they've been concerned

about whether or not

they would get justice.

That's why it's so important

that we ensure that we give people

the confidence to be able to report

crimes, make these allegations,

for them to be properly investigated

and then the right and proper action

to be taken.

In this case, if I may say,

we've got to a situation where it's

got to another stage in relation

to the release of the individual

and people are asking, as you say,

why is it that this has happened

and why is it the victims

weren't told about this?

Because there are victims -

as I say, I know one

who wasn't told about this.

So it's important that we look

back and say, "Actually,

should we be doing this

in a different way?"

If necessary,

will we see

legislative change on this?

Well, we will look at

what is necessary, yes.

The Secretary of State for Justice,

the justice department,

will be looking at that over

the next couple of months.

They'll be asking the question,

do we need to do things

in a different way?

And whatever the answer is,

we will do what is necessary.

Can I turn to another really big

story at the moment?

I've seen winter crises

come and go for many,

many years as a reporter.

I don't remember one quite

like this in the NHS.

55,000 operations cancelled

in a single month, a return to mixed

sex wards and all the rest of it.

Can you remember when the crisis

was as bad as this?

Well, if we look at what has

happened in the NHS

and what is happening in the NHS,

of course, as you say, there

are winter pressures every year.

But not like this.

This is worse, isn't it?

The NHS has actually been better

prepared for the winter pressures

than it has been before.

You mentioned operations

being postponed.

That was part of the plan.

Of course we want to ensure

that those operations can be

reinstated as soon as possible

but it's about making sure

that those who most urgently need

care are able to get that treatment

when they need its.

But what I also know -

and I visited Frimley Park Hospital

only a few days ago...

What I also know is that

our NHS staff have been

doing a fantastic job.

They do that day in and day out

but they have been working really

hard over this time of winter

pressure and really

delivering for people

and doing a fantastic job.

Sure but, Prime Minister,

you say there was a plan.

Let me tell you about Leah Butler

Smith, who was in an ambulance

in a hospital outside Essex

with her mother, who

was having a stroke.

They were in the

ambulance for an hour.

They then went into the hospital

for a further four hours

before they saw a doctor.

Her mother was going

in and out of consciousness.

If I'd been waiting for five

hours before I'd seen

a doctor after my stroke,

I would not be here talking to you.

This is about life and death and up

and down the country,

people are having horrendous

experiences in the NHS.

Whether you say there was a plan

or not, there is a real problem.

What would you say to

Leah Butler Smith and her mother?

Well, obviously you've raised

an individual case with me,

which I haven't seen the details of,

and I recognise that people have

concerns if they have

experience of that sort.

If we look at what is happening

across the NHS, what we see is that

actually the NHS is delivering

for more people, it is treating more

people, and more people

are being seen within four hours

every day than has been

in a few years ago.

But, of course, nothing's perfect

and there is more to do.

We have planned for the winter

pressures this year.

We did put more money

in and there has been planning,

and hospitals have been dealing

with it in different ways.

As I say, when I met

staff at Frimley Park,

they were very clear

about what they've been doing

and I saw dedication of our NHS

staff, which is so important

to us all.

But given what's happened,

you have apologised.

What have you said sorry for?

What I said was that

I was apologising for the fact that,

of course, as we've seen,

some operations have been postponed

and some people have been delayed

in being admitted to hospital.

If you look across the NHS,

experience is different,

the experience is different

from hospital to hospital

as to what is happening.

There are some hospitals where very

few operations have been cancelled.

And there are some where the bed

occupancy is 99.9%, way

above what is considered to be safe.

And what we need to do

is to ensure that in addition

to the work that we are doing,

putting extra funding to the NHS,

that we are working to see

where it is the case that hospitals

have been perhaps able

to cope better than others.

What is it that has

enabled them to do that?

What can we learn from

this for the future?

You say you put the money

in but according to the Institute

for Fiscal Studies, this

is the tightest spending squeeze

in the history of the NHS.

Are you saying sorry for that?

We have put extra

money into the NHS.

We have been doing that

year in year out...

Not nearly enough.

Year in and year out,

we look at the funding

for the National Health Service

and what we have done

is consistently, where we felt

that it did need more funding,

we have put more funding into it.

We put some extra money in for

coping with the winter pressures.

We also, in the budget in November,

announced that for the next couple

of years there will be extra money,

further money, going

into the National Health Service,

so we look at what is needed

and we recognise that.

We also need to ensure that we are

seeing across the whole of the NHS

best possible practice.

We should be proud of the fact

that our NHS has been named

as the safest and best health care

system in the world.

Is there more we can do?

Yes, of course there is, and that's

what the Government will be doing.

The tightest funding squeeze

in the history of the NHS,

£6 billion out of the social care

budget since 2010, which is why

there are so many people

in hospital beds at the moment,

and an NHS reorganisation under

Andrew Lansley described

by your own former adviser

Nick Timothy as being a disaster,

creating bureaucracy

and destroying accountability.

Surely those are the things

you should be apologising for.

Well, if you look at the social care

system, we have recognised

the pressure that is put on the NHS

and the increased pressure

on the social care system

because of the ageing population.

But you haven't done anything

about it, I'm sorry.

Well, yes, we have done

something about it, Andrew.

I'm sorry, you're wrong in that.

We have put extra funding

into the social care system

and we have worked with hospitals

and with local authorities

to identify how we can reduce

those delayed discharges,

ie patients being kept in hospital

when they shouldn't be.

But they've been...

I'm sorry but you take

a £6 billion out from the NHS,

from the local authorities,

and you put a small

amount of money back in.

That is not solving the problem.

That is putting a small

sticking plaster on a wound

that you have created.

I've always said...

I've said for some time now that

if we look at the social care

system, we need to identify...

There is a short-term answer,

there is a medium-term answer

and a longer term answer.

Short-term, we've

put extra money in.

Medium-term, we need to ensure that

best practice is being undertaken

across the whole of the system.

So there are some areas

where you will see very

few delayed discharges,

others where you will

see a higher number.

What we've done in the winter

preparedness is work on that

and we've actually seen the number

of delayed discharges -

elderly people being kept

in hospital when they don't need

to be - coming down.

Longer term, we need

a sustainable solution

for our social care system,

and that's what we're working on.

OK.

Now, every single second winter,

or every winter, depending

on when you're looking at it,

there is a winter NHS crisis.

It goes on and on and on and people

like me say "Where is more money?"

And people like you say, "Well,

here is a bit more money,"

and in a few years' time

there is another crisis.

Surely the NHS needs

a better long-term solution.

Jeremy Hunt says there needs to be

a 10-year funding plan for the NHS.

Do you agree with him?

Well, we've put...

Of course, what we're operating

on at the moment is the five-year

forward view for the NHS,

which is the forward view

that the NHS themselves

came forward with.

They brought those

proposals together.

What about a 10-year plan?

They say there is not

enough money coming in.

And we have put the money in.

We have put money in that was asked

for for that review and we've

actually put some extra money

in in the spring statement,

in the budget, last year.

A lot of the brightest

Conservatives, best informed

Conservatives in Parliament

on the subject, people

like Sarah Wollaston, Oliver Letwin,

are now talking about the need

for an earmarked NHS tax of some

kind to get away from this endless

cycle of crises and patchwork money

going in, another crisis,

another crisis and so forth.

Is it not time to look

bravely and radically

at the funding of the NHS?

Well, what we do when we look

at the money to go into the NHS...

This isn't an issue

of stopgaps here and there.

Actually, every year,

when we produce budgets,

we look at what funding is necessary

for the NHS, we look at what changes

need to be made to ensure that

money is being spent

as effectively as possible.

Some really interesting innovations

being introduced by some...

That's quite a long way

of saying no, isn't it?

There's quite a lot of innovation.

You keep talking about the money,

but actually what you also

need to look at is what,

how the NHS works, how it operates.

What I saw in the hospital I visited

in the last few days,

some really interesting innovations.

They've done a huge amount of work

with local GPs to actually reduce

the number of elderly people that

need to be in hospital.

That's good for those elderly

people, it's good for the beds

they are releasing...

Of course it is but it goes back

to the £6 billion cut in social care

budget since the Conservatives

came into power.

I'm sorry, it doesn't.

Actually what that is about is about

the hospital and GPs

working together to ensure

that they are helping to keep

elderly people out of hospital.

We want everybody to work

together, I agree with that.

It's better for the elderly people,

it releases beds for those

who have more need for them.

Can I move onto another big

problem, which is railways.

In Maidenhead it's an extra

£700 for your ticket

to London since 2010.

A heck of a lot of money.

Across the country commuters

are looking at the railway

system saying we're paying

through the nose, the rises get

bigger and bigger and the service

is getting worse and worse.

If this is privatisation I want

nothing to do with it.

Well, what we've seen

on the railways of course

is that the regulated

fares are kept...

The rises in regulated

fares are kept inflation,

and for every pound that somebody

pays on a ticket in the railways,

97p of that goes back

into investment in the railways.

We saw between, just...

Since privatisation,

usage of the railways has doubled

and we have seen the biggest

investment since Victorian

times in our railways.

I want to see, you know, a lot

of people rely on our railways,

we want to see good service

on our railways but that does mean

that investment is needed.

Meanwhile lots of people, as I say,

paying through the nose.

5.5% increases.

There's nothing

they can do about it.

They are a captive audience,

they have to pay that money,

but if you are running one

of the big companies,

running one of the railways,

if you are Richard Branson

or Brian Souter at Stagecoach

and you sign a solemn pledge

which means you are going to pay

3.3 billion pounds to the British

taxpayer in return for running

a franchise, and things don't go

as you hope, you can go back

to your government and renegotiate

and get away with it.

It's one more for the people paying

for the tickets and another

for people running the services.

No, we are still seeing money

being paid into the Governments

and what we see, as I say...

If you say that, can you give us

I guarantee that the British

taxpayer is going to get that

£3.3 billion from Stagecoach

and Virgin for the East Coast line?

Virgin and Stagecoach are still

paying money to the Government

for the East Coast line.

That's not a yes.

But that's just look

at the point you are making...

So the answer is no to that.

Lord Adonis is right,

the taxpayer has lost out on this

deal and it provides an incentive

for the companies

to do the same thing.

No, what I see when I look

across the railways is railway

companies that are wanting

to provide a good service

for their customers.

You talk about the Maidenhead line,

how much somebody in my own

constituency now has to pay

for their season ticket.

Actually now they are soon going

to be able to have the opportunity

of not only using the Great Western

trains but also using Crossrail.

That's a huge investment

in our railways, that's

an improvement in service

for many people.

That's a choice for passengers

that they can have.

That's why we have seen passenger

usage doubling under privatisation.

Let me move slightly

further north in England.

You've got a 25-year

plan for the environment

and part of that is a big

new northern forest.

Can you explain a little bit

about the thinking behind that

and what it involves?

I will talk about the forest

in a minute but if I can just say

why it's important I think,

people often think about

and environment issues and wonder

whether the Government can

have an impact on that.

If you just look at one thing

we have done, in 2015 we introduced

the 5p charge on carrier bags,

on plastic bags.

Actually we now see 9 billion fewer

plastic bags being used.

Some villages are banning

them altogether.

And so this is a difference.

It's making a real difference.

We want to do the same in relation

to single plastic use.

Nobody who watched Blue Planet

will doubt the need

for us to do something.

Fantastic programme by the BBC.

But environment is about a huge

variety of things and that's why

we are putting £5.7 million

into what is going to be

a new national forest,

120 miles from Bradford,

Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool,

giving that environment,

that habitat for wildlife but also

areas for people to go and enjoy.

You say this is going to happen.

Are we sure these trees are actually

going to be planted?

Because the Conservatives offered

or said they were going to plant

11 million trees in the manifesto

and they haven't been planted.

Well we are putting money

in and this national forest

we will be developing that,

we will be ensuring...

It's going to take time to plant

the millions of trees that will be

needed in order to develop this

national forest so this

is not a short-term thing

that's going to happen,

but the commitment is there.

You pride yourself on being somebody

that understands the countryside

and you've always been a staunch

supporter of fox hunting.

You have promised a free vote

on returning fox hunting

to the country during this

Parliament.

Have you changed your mind?

Well, I've not changed

my personal view.

I've never fox hunted as it happens,

but if you look back...

But you support fox hunting.

I've not changed my view

on that but if I look back

at what the message is that we got

from the election, one of the clear

messages we got was a number

of areas in which people

were concerned about

what we were proposing.

So just as we've looked

at issues on school funding,

on tuition fees, on housing,

we are taking forward approaches

in relation to that.

On this issue of fox hunting,

what I can say is that there

won't be a vote during this

Parliament.

This sounds, if I may say so,

Prime minister, just

a little bit cynical.

If I was a fox hunter,

I would think, here is somebody

who supports fox hunting,

who said they were going

to bring fox hunting back,

and because you look to the numbers

when it comes to the election, you

are going to go back on your work.

No, as I said, my own view hasn't

changed but as Prime Minister,

my job isn't just about what I think

about something, it is

actually about looking

at what the view of the country is.

I think there was a clear message

about that and that's why I say

there won't be a vote on fox hunting

during this Parliament.

Let's move on to Brexit.

Do you think we are going

to get a deal this year?

Well, I think what we saw at the end

of last year with the sufficient

progress on the first stage

of negotiations was a real

spirit of cooperation

between the UK and Europe,

wanting to ensure that we

get a deal that is in

everybody's best interests.

So the timetable that we've now got

going forward, of course,

with that date of the 29th of March

2019, when we will be leaving.

Quite close.

When we will be leaving

the European Union...

The first stage in that will be

looking in more detail

at the implementation period.

It was important for business

and for business confidence

that this agreement period

should take place.

We now have to look at the detail

of that and the expectation,

and everybody is working to have

that detail by the end

of March in 2018...

Which really means

getting a deal this year.

It then means the work

on the withdrawal agreement before

the end of the year and I've been

very clear that by the time

we leave the European Union,

we want to have agreed

what the future relationship

between us and the European

Union is going to be.

Do you think that MPs...

I'm sorry, do you think that MPs

are going to get a vote

on our future relationship

with the EU in Parliament this year?

There will certainly

be a meaningful vote.

There's going to be lots of votes

for MPs on different

aspects of this and,

of course, crucially,

what the first thing that,

if you like, in timetable terms,

MPs will be looking at is the detail

of the withdrawal agreement.

We have said to MPs

they will have a vote on that.

They will also, of course,

be then voting on the legislation

necessary to bring both

the withdrawal agreement

on the implementation

period into place.

This year?

This year?

Well, the intention is...

And Michel Barnier himself has said

he wants that agreed

by October of this year,

so that that can then go

to the European Parliament,

which has to look at it, and we've

said we want our Parliament to vote

once the European Parliament does.

When you are asked about our

eventual relationship,

you have a series of

formulas you use.

You say it is going to be

a very good relationship,

it is going to be bespoke

and so forth, which doesn't really

mean a lot to people.

When I asked David Davis

about it, he said he wanted

Canada plus, plus, plus.

What does that mean?

Well, it means that what we want

is our own free trade agreement

with the European Union.

Now, we start off from a different

position from other countries

who start negotiating.

And from Canada.

And from Canada.

Canada didn't have the relationship

with the EU that we have,

because we operate on the same basis

at the moment.

But also, 80% of our

economy is service-based,

particularly financial services,

so would it be a Canada

plus a special deal for the City?

Would that be the kind of deal that

would appeal to you?

Well, it will be a free trade

agreement, which we want to cover

both goods and services.

What I want to do is to ensure that

as we look at the Brexit deal

going forward, it's important

we recognise why people voted

to leave the European

Union here in the UK.

Some of that was about free movement

and an end to free movement, some

of it actually was about the issue

of the jurisdiction

of the European Court of Justice,

and people wanting control,

but at the same time, I think people

still want to have a good

economic relationship

with the European Union,

so we want as frictionless

and tariff-free trading relationship

with the European Union as possible,

and that's what we mean when we talk

about having a free trade agreement

which isn't modelled

on somebody else's agreement

but is actually

the right one for the UK.

OK.

Staying briefly with foreign

affairs, you've seen a lot

of Donald Trump one way and another.

Child or stable genius?

I do...

Obviously, I've worked

with President Trump

on a number of issues,

as we continue to work

with the United States

on a number of issues.

President Trump, I think...

What do you make of him?

What I make of him is somebody

who is taking decisions

on what he believes is in the best

interests of the United States.

The United Kingdom government

and I will take decisions

here on what we believe

is in the best interests of the UK.

In the States, there

are quite serious questions

being raised by some people

about his mental state.

Do you think they're serious?

No.

As I say, when I deal

with President Trump,

what I see is somebody

who is committed to ensuring

that he is taking decisions

in the best interests

of the United States.

And he's coming to this country?

He will be coming to this country.

Can I read you something you said

in your New Year message?

You said that in 2018,

everyone has a right to be

treated with respect -

that means a public sphere

in which debate is constructive

and courteous, and where we treat

each other with decency.

In that context, do you think

it was right to appoint Toby Young

to the new students' body,

given what he said about being

a porn addict and given the things

he has said repeatedly on Twitter

about women's breasts?

Well, first of all, Toby Young has

done exceedingly good work

in relation to Free Schools,

and that's what led

to him being appointed

to the office for students.

When he was appointed,

I was not aware of these

comments that he had made.

Frankly, I'm not at all

impressed by those comments.

He is now in public office and,

as far as I'm concerned,

if he was to continue to use that

sort of language and talk

in that sort of way,

he would no longer be

in public office.

But for the time being,

he has apologised and,

from your point of view,

that is enough, he can carry on...?

He's apologised but, as I say,

if he continues to talk and use

this sort of language,

then he will no longer

be in public office.

Last time we were in this hotel

I asked you whether there

would be a snap election.

You said, "No, there

won't be," and then there was.

Slightly in that context,

can I ask you...

I started off by saying that

you were in a stronger position

than you were a year ago,

or less than a year ago -

are you in such a strong position

you can now say to us

clearly that you will fight

the next general election?

Well, Andrew, I've been asked that

before and I've said,

you know, I'm not a quitter.

I'm in this for the long term,

and the reason I'm in...

But does that mean you will

fight the next election?

I said that before.

I've said that I want to fight that.

Obviously, I serve for as long

as people want me to serve.

Theresa May, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

We are live in London where we will

be asking if free speech is under

threat at universities. Then the

greenhouse gases caused by farming

animals, taxing meat out of the

planets, and have we misunderstood

Buddhism? How was harming Rohingya

people compatible with the religion?

That's for all this week.

We'll be back next Sunday

with another political leader

and an almost absurdly glam

Hollywood line up of Meryl Streep,

Tom Hanks and Stephen Spielberg.

Their new film's about an unhinged

president whose fury at the media

seems to threaten free speech.

So absolutely nothing

to do with 2018.

Until then, we leave

you with new music from that great

Glasgow band Franz Ferdinand.

Their fifth album is out next month.

From it, this is Paper Cages.

Goodbye.

# Step out of our cages...

# Out of our cages

# Out of our cages

# Step out

# I like the look of your place

# Yes I love your construction

# Did you carve a wee key

# From the soap in your kitchen?

# To turn in a lock