28/01/2018 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

Not everything has gone badly.

The victory of Bombardier,

the aircraft maker, is very good

news for Northern Ireland.

And in Davos, Donald Trump

was doing his best -

I said his best - to be

conciliatory, to make nice.

But for the Prime Minister,

it's been another tough week.

To be a successful leader

you need your own team to be united

and properly behind you.

Yet again, the Tory party has

been elbowing, jostling,

bickering and backstabbing.

Was this the week, perhaps,

when it became literally impossible

for Theresa May to succeed?

David Lidington, now effectively

Mrs May's number two

is here to respond -

does he, like the Chancellor,

want "very modest" trade

changes after Brexit?

And the Labour

leader, Jeremy Corbyn,

is here in the latest

of our 2018 leader interviews.

Does he - like his

Shadow Chancellor -

think capitalism must change or face

a social avalanche?

Now, it's hard to speak

to camera through gritted

teeth but I'm doing my best.

Bizarrely, President

Trump hasn't given this

show his first overseas interview -

can't think why.

It's gone to Piers Morgan,

his old mucker and an ITV presenter.

So what have we learned?

Piers joins me this morning.

And in a busy week for politics,

my news reviewers are

the Observer's Sonia Sodha,

Sam Coates of the Times

and the pro-Brexit

commentator Isabel Oakeshott,

That was quite tense. To relax us

back into the Sunday morning...

the Royal Opera House

star Joseph Calleja.

All that after the news,

read this morning by Ben Thompson.

Good morning.

Police are trying to establish how

many people were in a car

which crashed into a group

of teenagers in Hayes

in west London on Friday night,

killing three teenage boys.

They say at least two men

were travelling in the car.

One has been arrested,

the other fled the scene.

The three victims have been named

locally as Josh Kennedy,

Harry Rice and George Wilkinson.

It's understood they had been

on their way to a birthday

party at a football club

when they were killed.

Paris remains on high alert,

with the River Seine

expected to rise to six metres

above its normal level today.

It follows some of France's

heaviest rain for a century.

Sections of the Louvre

museum have closed, some

properties have flooded,

and tourist boats are

no longer operating.

A close friend and political ally

of President Trump has resigned

as head of fundraising

for the Republican party,

after accusations that he sexually

harassed women who worked for him.

Steve Wynn - a billionaire casino

owner - was chosen by Mr Trump

to be finance chairman

of the Republican

National Committee.

Mr Wynn has described

the claims, published

by the Wall Street Journal,

as "preposterous".

The former Northern Ireland

Secretary and prominent Leave

campaigner Theresa Villiers has said

she fears the UK is heading

towards "a dilution of Brexit."

Writing in the Sunday Telegraph,

she says there's a real danger

the UK will sign up to deal

which would keep us

in the EU in all but name.

Downing Street said the Government

is committed to delivering a deep

and special partnership with the EU.

16 and 17-year-olds in Wales

are to be given the right

to vote in local elections,

under plans published

by the Welsh government.

If approved, Wales would follow

Scotland, where the voting age has

already been lowered for national

and local elections.

The Labour Party has called

for the idea to be extended

to the whole of the UK,

but the Westminster government says

it has "no plans" to do so.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC One

is at one o'clock.

Back to you, Andrew.

Now to the papers.

Torres in turmoil says the Sunday

Times. Two different stories and

that headline. One is about Gavin

Williamson, the Defence Secretary,

that appears on many front pages. I

am sure he is a fine fellow, but in

my view he has a terrifying smile!

Sunday Telegraph, we will talk about

this story in great detail, Mandarin

is forcing Theresa May into Brexit

betrayal is the main story. That is

not about oranges or Chinese

officials, but about Number 10

apparatchiks. I was mentioning Piers

Morgan and his great Trump

interview, Trump's snub to the Prime

Minister over preps -- Brexit. You

can see a clip of that later on. The

Observer, in its new truncated form,

the main story there is that top

academy schools are sounding the

alarm as the cash crisis looms.

Talking to people around the

country, people are saying school

budgets, that is the real story that

people like me on the TV are not

talking enough about. Much to talk

about. Where shall we start? Let's

start with that, Isabel, Torres in

turmoil?

I know what you mean about

Gavin Williamson's smile. I remember

seeing him after Theresa May's

disastrous speech at the Tory party

conference, where you would have

thought Gavin Williamson, the Chief

Whip, would be ashen faced, he was

grinning. I was bemused by this.

Today, I suspect he will be smiling

a lot less because he is all over

the Sunday papers for the wrong

reasons. A man who has been

relishing manipulating the media to

his own advantage. Actually come in

a way that I have found quite

astonishing to watch. He has been

very impressive, in the way he has

been getting his case out for more

money for the Armed Forces.

Basically lobbying for cash?

He is

indeed. A lot of people within the

Tory party are very pleased about

that. You know, they feel it has

been a long time coming. Now he has

missed apt, I think. There has been

a serious error of judgment here. --

he has missteps. He is all over the

papers, about this office romance he

had a long time ago. All of the

questions about if he told the full

version of events.

He denies

lobbying, there is a real problem,

if you are a cabinet minister and

have a passionate cause you believe

in, if you are Boris Johnson on the

NHS, Gavin Williamson, really

thinking that the armed services are

underfunded, you go and try to

campaign publicly, we say, he is

manoeuvring for leadership. Dammed

if you do, dammed if you don't?

In

this case, there is the odd sign,

the odd conversation, the odd person

in Westminster indicating that in a

case of Gavin Williamson, that is

probably true. In the event of a

future vacancy, he might well go for

it.

How did he get into this

elevated position? Who suggested him

as the new Defence Secretary?

When

you look around the Cabinet of

titans, it is hard to work out quite

who might succeed Theresa May. I

think quite a lot of people around

the table harbour private ambition.

When you have ambition, that brings

with it enemies. The variety of

stories on the front pages suggest

that Gavin does have a number of

people that are gunning for him.

That is going to be tricky. The

moment you ambition goes up, so does

the leader intensity. I suspect if

he is serious about that, that is

the start of it.

Sonia, that

absolutely terrifying story, as

terrifying as his smile, the

Russians killing thousands of us by

targeting electrical stations and

power stations, the Russians then

mocked that as a Monty Python story.

What is your view of the reality?

Well, you have security officials,

unnamed sources in some Sunday

papers coming out and saying that

actually he was disclosing

intelligence that should not really

be on the front pages. I think there

are some feelings in the

Conservative Party that, in going

for that very prominent splash,

saying this about Russia, Williamson

was just trying to distract from

allegations that papers were making.

I don't think that is a very good

look. When it comes to the substance

of the allegations, I think he has

now put himself in a position where

he gave that interview to the Daily

Mail this week. I think if that

account stands, and it is found the

account stands, I think it is fine.

I think this will go away. I think

if he is found to have lied about

anything, and there are allusions

and some of the papers this weekend

that perhaps there was harassment, a

disciplinary harassment case...

We

don't know this stuff, we have to be

very careful. It is also probably

objectively true that the Russians

have left ahead in terms of military

technology and we are falling back.

Probably worth pointing out that if

you have the allegation that he may

or may not have relied on

intelligence when giving the

Telegraph interview, who is doing

accusing? There are a lot of

anonymous quotes, but it says the

Foreign Office made a complaint. Who

runs the Foreign Office? Boris

Johnson.

There you go, really

intriguing, skulduggery all over the

place. All deeply connected to the

Brexit story, which we are going to

pick up from the Sunday Telegraph?

Absolutely. It feels this week as if

the foundations of Westminster are

once again shaking as the people try

to work out, as you were saying in

the introduction, how long Theresa

May has got, given the apparent

state of her political authority.

The reason for that is three

problems. You have her indecision,

it would appear, the lack of vision

that MPs complain about and then

Brexit. It does feel that over the

next six weeks you have got crunch

time over Brexit decision-making.

What you are going to get in the

next few days is the cabinet trying

to bring together a discussion about

where to go. I think that is going

to be accompanied by quite a lot of

information and analysis from the

civil service, pointing out some of

the dangers of where some of the

options go. People like Jeremy

Heywood, Olly Robinson, putting

together packs for Cabinet

ministers.

That is the front page

splash?

In the Telegraph you have

unnamed Cabinet minister saying, and

on...

These people are remainers?

These civil servants are not

nonpolitical actors, they are trying

to influence the debate and push the

cabinet down a particular pattern.

Whether that is fair or not, I am

sure, but we don't like what they

are saying.

Let's try to unpack

more. This frenzy started with the

Chancellor, Philip Hammond, saying

after Brexit there will be very

little change in trade relationships

with the EU. Was that a misstep?

Precisely what the Prime Minister

does not need right now, this

incredibly sensitive moment for

Brexit negotiations and her own

leadership. Her Chancellor

suggesting that, actually, what we

are going to get is a new thing

called Brexit in name only, Brino.

He wasn't talking about the deal he

wanted, but the fact that he wanted

an unchanged, relatively, trading

relationship. If you are going to

get that, what do you have to give

the Europeans to achieve it?

His way

of trying to spin his way out of

that has not worked at all with the

MPs that support Brexit, or the 17.3

million people that voted for it.

When you see in the papers, as we

have done, the suggestion that the

transition period might be extended

for another year, that merely plays

into people's deep-seated suspicions

that it's not going to happen.

It

ain't going to happen? OK. I think

that is enough Brexit for the time

being. We will talk about it a lot

during the course of the programme.

I said earlier on, Sonia, school

budgets, people around the country

raise this again and again. Schools

are in a real problem and the NHS

has got the headlines, rough

sleepers have got headlines, but

schools have been slightly pushed

out?

That is why I picked this

story. It is a great reminder when

we're talking about high politics

and Brexit, there is actually a very

grim reality out there in the

country, whether it is the NHS,

rough sleepers or schools. We have

had the Christmas break for schools.

Things have gone slightly silent on

school funding. But the Observer

splash is top Academy chain saying,

raising the alarm bells, saying that

the Government is not funding

schools sufficiently. We know that

the Institute for Fiscal Studies has

pointed out that real per-pupil

spending is going down over the next

few years. The deepest cuts to

school funding since the early

1980s. We had headteachers writing

to the Prime Minister, writing to

parents and saying, you know, we

can't even afford things like toilet

roll. You need to chip in. I think

this story has very political

ramifications for the Prime

Minister. Lots of Conservative

backbenchers in marginal

constituencies, with schools that

are going to be affected by these

cuts. I think it is going to cause

problems. I think the other very

interesting angle of the story is

that academies are the flagship

education reform of this government.

Now, this raises questions about

what happens if some of the bigger

chains go bust.

OK, let's move on.

Two are the stories we must do.

Trump and one is the Labour story

that we will look at later on. There

is a culture war going on?

I think

it is a good segue with the little

party political broadcast for the

Labour Party from sunnier. I agree

that there are serious problems out

there, schools, the NHS and the rest

of it. What is Labour tying itself

in knots over? A question of whether

people that are transgender should

be allowed to run on an all-female

short list. I tried coming on

programme with some statistics about

how many people identify as

transgender. Difficult to get the

statistics, but I would guess it is

not in a millions or even in the

tens of thousands. How many want to

run for the Labour Party on an

all-female short list? I will hazard

a guess it is less than the fingers

of these two hands.

And yet it is

somehow the subject of the hour. If

you go to one of these London

clinics, the Marsden, talking to

kids that want to change their

gender, the number of children

wanted to do this is shooting up.

There is a real thing here. ITV have

been running an extraordinary,

moving documentary called

Transformation Street, which I found

myself watching, about people going

through this. I don't think anybody

could watch the programme could

possibly suggest anybody would elect

to go through that traumatic

surgery, all of the hormonal

treatment. But I do think we need to

keep a sense of proportion. It is

not the right thing for Labour to be

obsessing about.

A philosophical

question. I don't want to talk any

more about this, I want to talk

about Trump. Piers Morgan got this

interview with Trump and he got a

real story out of that, Trump's

hardline position on Britain and

Brexit, and also the EU, about which

he is not a huge fan?

Donald Trump is trying to be

diplomatically helpful, but he

couldn't quite help himself, he

suggested Theresa May should have

gone in harder on the Brexit debate,

said he might come up to two times

this year which won't necessarily

help her. He has a stay at every

evening address on Tuesday. There is

briefing ahead of the speech about

how Donald Trump doesn't want to

repeat the American carnage speech

he gave last year when he spoke

about the state of the US, but wants

to seize on his

to seize on his economic progress.

What can we see a Donald Trump that

gets on with the job? I don't know,

Theresa May might give him some

tips.

A low-key Donald Trump, very

hard to get our heads around.

America First doesn't

mean America alone -

that was Donald Trump's most

impressive soundbite

at the Davos forum.

But he also found time

to take possession of

an Arsenal football shirt

- don't ask.

And to give his first British TV

interviewer, Piers Morgan,

a rather odd kind of apology

for re-tweeting messages from

the far right group Britain First.

Before we speak to the Grand

Inquisitor himself, here's

more from the interview.

Do you believe that we're

in a good position?

A lot of people are

still very very anxious.

But hearing the President

of the United States saying, hey,

well, there's plenty of good trade

coming from me, that's a big deal

to people in Britain.

Well, would it be

the way I negotiate?

No, I wouldn't negotiate

the way it was negotiated,

but I have a lot of respect

for your Prime Minister

and I think they're doing a job.

I think I would have

negotiated it differently.

I would have had

a different attitude.

What would you have done?

I think I would have said

that the European Union is not

cracked up to what it's

supposed to be.

And I would have taken a tougher

stand on getting out.

Are we front of the queue,

or are we behind the French?

Because we're a bit worried

about Emmanuel Macron,

who's been all over you,

trying to be your new best friend.

No, I like him.

He's a friend of mine.

"Emmanuel".

He's a great guy,

his wife is fantastic.

I like him a lot.

He likes him a lot. I said right at

the beginning you are an old mucker

of President Trump, explain why that

is the case.

I took part in the

American celebrity Apprentice, then

went to CNM and to interview him

many times. It is quite surreal when

a friend becomes the most powerful

man on earth.

This is why some

people will say of course he goes to

you, you will give him an easy

interview. Did you?

It's generating

a lot of news lines and I think the

clips show I don't give him an easy

time. I think there is a more

relaxed atmosphere and I always

believe you get more out of him when

you are relaxed. When you attack

him, he attacks back and it

degenerates

degenerates into a slanging match.

He made some forceful points,

particularly about Britain.

I was

intrigued that he said he would have

done Brexit differently, did you get

any sense of what that would have

meant in concrete terms? There does

anyone on the planet doubt that

Donald Trump would have negotiated

this harder than Theresa May and her

government? He looked at it and

said, are you actually leaving? Are

you trying to pretend you are not

leaving? He doesn't understand the

subtleties.

And not worrying too much about our

trade deals for the time being.

Yes,

he gave a stark warning to the EU

which is that he's coming after them

on trade. I wouldn't be at all

surprised. The biggest trading

partner for America in the world is

the EU, he was making it very clear

he's not happy with that trade

arrangement. If I were the EU I

wouldn't be quite so cocky about

where is going. My message also, you

have Jeremy Corbyn coming my message

to those who say band

to those who say band Donald Trump -

right, a state visit for later in

the autumn, but I think we have to

work out in this country, we have

given state visits to Vladimir

Putin, Robert Mugabe, Bashar

al-Assad, are we really saying

Donald Trump is the one we end up

banning? This is among this week who

has gone on a remarkable charm

offensive to Britain, and said every

time we need him militarily he will

be there. He said he will do a great

new trade deal with us. Hold your

nose if you don't like him and put

Britain's interests first.

His image

around the world has been heavily

shaped by this book Fire And Fury,

and one of his friends described him

as a monkey. I mean someone who has

got zero focus and cannot

concentrate for more than 30

seconds. Even in your interview you

start talking about Brexit and he

goes on talking about golf in

Scotland. Do you think he is a man

who's focused enough and mentally

capable of being a successful

president?

Absolutely but he is a

bull in a china shop. Is an

interesting maverick kind of

character. Watching him in Davos was

fascinating because I watched other

leaders like Angela Merkel and

Emmanuel Macron and they weren't

getting much attention. When Donald

Trump arrived it was like Mick

Jagger had arrived.

Mick Jagger's

lawyers are on the phone as we

speak.

Actually

speak.

Actually Donald Trump's might

be! He said he will do another one

eventually but I have another five

in the can.

Piers Morgan, thank you.

The weather,

really lovely, golden,

calm, ice-blue moments

but only moments, in what has been

yet more wind, rain

and seasonal wildness.

It's only been dry January in

the most drearily penitential sense.

I'm almost ready for spring.

Susan Powell is in

the BBC weather studio.

Susan Powell is in

the BBC weather studio.

And I can deliver, the warmest day

of the year so far. Lots of mild

air. If the sun manages to get

through the cloud, we could even see

temperatures up to 15 Celsius. That

said, for most, we will be up

against the cloud for the majority

of the Day today. Quite misty and

murky around many of the coast of

western Britain but from the

south-west to the Welsh mountains

and perhaps the east of the Pennines

this afternoon, you stand a chance

of the sunshine coming through and

then it should be pleasantly mild

for you. Generally highs of 11 or

12, just the far north of Scotland

sitting in that slightly colder air.

That cold air will progress right

the way across the British Isles as

we move into Monday to a chilly

start, but the payoff is you get the

brighter conditions so Scotland sees

the sunshine first thing. The

weather front still lurking to the

south keeps things cloudy and damp

through Monday afternoon but still

mild here with highs of 11

through Monday afternoon but still

mild here with highs of 11 or 12

degrees.

So pretty good news for almost

everybody except for my mum and dad

in the far north-west of Scotland.

One thing you can say

about the modern Tory party -

it's not exactly instinctively

loyal.

Theresa May has faced poisoned dart

after poisoned dart aimed

at her back all week,

as Brexiteers and Remainers lock

horns and general discipline seems

to be breaking down.

How should she respond?

How can she respond?

David Lidington of the

Cabinet Office is as close

as she has to a deputy.

I think I'm going to save your

blushes. I'm not going to read out

all of the disobliging things your

colleagues have said about the Prime

Minister, but what are your messages

to those people saying things about

how she has no vision?

I think look

at what she says and what she's

doing in office. You have a warm and

there who inherited it an immense

challenge in delivering a Brexit

that will give prosperity and

security for the United Kingdom and

all its people for the future. She's

not only doing that. When I sit with

her in a morning meeting, when I see

the flash in the eye, what is really

driving her in politics is not

performing in front of the media, it

is public service and making a

difference on big social policy

challenges. It is getting the right

housing so young people can live

somewhere, getting social care

sorted out, getting education fixed

so people will have secure jobs and

careers in an age of artificial

intelligence.

Speaking of robots,

your colleagues have been really

rude about her. Is your message that

they should belt up?

The

Conservative family, left, right and

centre, needs to come together in a

spirit of mutual respect and look at

the bigger picture. The bigger

picture is showing that after eight

years in Government we are still

neck and neck with the Labour Party

in the polls, taking seats of them

in places like Bolton last week. The

other thing my colleagues need to

remember, last week's news that

unemployment lowest level for 40

years. New borrowing figures lower

than expected, figure is higher than

expected.

So people like you who

have said we would be in a

disastrous position after Brexit

were wrong.

There is a formidable

task, as we have all said, in

negotiating the right deal for the

UK.

"We Are taking two completely

interconnected underlined economist

with high levels of trade and

selectively moving them hopefully

very modestly apart", do you agree?

That is the Chancellor I think you

are quoting.

Yes, do you agree with

him?

What I agree on is that the day

after we leave, business will be

able to operate to the same legal

framework that it is now.

He wasn't

talking about the transition period,

he was talking about the eventual

end state and said he hoped for the

sake of British business that we

work very closely together.

Philip

has made it clear he is fully on

board with the approach the Prime

Minister has set out in both her

Lancaster house and Florence

speeches last year, when she talked

about trying to get a deal in the

forthcoming negotiations. We are

leaving, don't speak in any doubt

about that, but we are having a

future trade agreement that we hope

will be as frictionless and as free

trade as we possibly can with our

neighbours next door in Europe.

We

have two interconnected economies

and we are selectively moving them

hopefully very modestly apart, do

you agree?

I'm not going into

details about the negotiations.

The

question is are we converging or

diverging?

Of course we will have

the power to choose for ourselves

whether or not diverged once we have

left the supranational legal

structures of the EU. It is then a

matter for a British government and

British Parliament to decide there

may be some areas where we want to

achieve frankly a similar objective

to the EU 27 but to do it in a

different way. There may be other

areas that we decide we have a

slightly different objective in this

area. Others will be trying to do

the same objective for the same

means so it makes sense to work

closely together.

Jacob Rees-Mogg

said recently everything is delayed

for two years, then there is high

alignment, you will find by 2022, no

one well have noticed any difference

when we left.

Jacob needs to see how

the negotiations will grow, we are

about to start negotiations and I'm

not going to get into detail about

that process. Secondly, the very

fact we will have left the European

Union is a big deal indeed. The bill

in front of Parliament extinguishes

the power of the European Court and

supranational EU law over the UK. We

will have from next year a

registration system that we have not

had before for EU nationals coming

to this country to register to show

they are entitled to be in the UK.

So why do you think people who watch

this closely, like Theresa Villiers

this morning, thinks it will be no

different from where we are at the

moment, it is a virtual non-Brexit.

Don't get me wrong, I want British

businesses who trade across Europe,

and European businesses who trade

with supply lines into the UK to be

as under structured as possible and

we are aiming to do that while at

the same time -- undisrupted, doing

that while being back in control of

our laws here.

If you want almost

undisrupted trade, we have to give

the Europeans things for that,

apparently.

It is a negotiation, the Prime

Minister has said there will be give

and take on both sides. It is not

just about trade. We are ambitious

about security and police

cooperation for the future. Our

interests and those of our

neighbours in Europe are going to be

similar on so many different issues,

we want that deep and special

partnership Theresa May talked

about.

One of the great frustrations

of public life at the moment is that

nothing apart from Brexit gets

discussed. There are lots of other

really, really important things.

Over the last five years, rough

sleeping in this country has

doubled. In the borough in which I

live, it has gone up 670%. Why?

It

has gone up for a number of

different reasons. Part of this is

to do with the complexity of the

people that often end up sleeping

rough. You are talking about people

with mental health conditions, often

a history of drug and alcohol

problems.

Those things have got

worse?

That is why the Government

set a very ambitious target to halve

rough sleeping by 2022 and

eliminated by 2027. We have set

aside large sums of taxpayer money.

What have you got wrong up until

now?

What we are doing now to sort

it out is that...

You must have got

something wrong?

We have backed a

new legislation which is enabling

us, with local authorities in

partnership, to address the reasons

why people become homeless, sleep

rough, so that we prevent that

rather than trying to deal with the

problem when it occurs. We are also

starting this year a number of

government funded pilot project in

different parts of the country to

deal with some of these really

complex cases. You have people that

have serious mental health issues, a

history of offending...

We move on.

A good test, what works and what

doesn't.

One area where the

Government has apparently been very

bold, you are supporting legislation

so that people that want to change

gender can self identify and stop if

I want to become a woman, I identify

as a woman and I will be treated as

a woman. Do you think a map -- trans

woman is a woman?

Somebody that is

transgender and has not gone through

the operation etc, and feels that

they were born into the wrong body,

to use a phrase, deserves respect.

We should respect people for who

they are, however they identify.

I

completely agree, my question is

slightly different.

The question

about the law and where that should

be, when Justine Greening was in

charge of these matters, she was

preparing a public consultation, now

she has left the government. Her

successors need to take stock of

that and decide how they want to

take it forward.

Is it still a live

proposal by the Government that

people can simply self identify as

women?

Was one of the issues Justine

was talking about putting out to

public consultation. That is still

the case. There has not yet been

that public consultation. These are

complex issues and I think that it

is right that any proposal like this

should be the subject of proper

consultation, with all people with

an interest in this, to make sure if

we make a change in policy we get it

right.

LGBT campaigners say you're

voting record on those issues has

been pretty hostile over the years

on gay marriage, on all sorts of

issues, having a gay, LGBT envoy to

Europe and so forth. Do you

recognise that you have a problem

with that community?

My voting

history of free votes on this is a

matter of record. I have come at it

from a additional, Christian point

of view. Particularly when civil

partnerships came in, my own view

has changed on that. Looking at how

gay friends of mine were really

affected for the better... I would

not vote against civil partnerships

and that sort of recognition. I

think it is a settled issue, in any

case. What I always try to do, and

when I was at the Foreign Office...

Can I test you one more time on

whether you think a trans woman is a

woman? Are --

I think that is a

matter for her.

Her?

She should be

treated as a woman. But I don't

spend time thinking about this. I

would try to deal with the person in

front of me, as they are, with

respect to that person, whatever

their background, however they

describe themselves. When

constituents come to see you, as a

local MP, I think we try to

categorise people and put them in

pigeonholes. You get into all sorts

of difficulties.

I was asking

because it was a government policy.

Thank you very much.

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

Join us at ten from Newcastle, when

we look at the left, does it have a

problem with anti-Semitism?

Lomography, harmless fun or deeply

damaging to society? Drugs, should

places be licensed where it is safe

for addicts to take them mist and

murk -- pornography, is it harmless

fun would it be damaging to society?

At the Davos summit, Labour's Shadow

Chancellor John McDonnell warned

the assembled bankers that

if they didn't change their ways

and fast, a political and social

avalanche was coming.

So, is the whole market system

now effectively bust?

Or is that ridiculous hyperbole?

I'm joined now by the Leader

of the Labour party, Jeremy Corbyn.

Welcome. Can I follow on from what

was happening at Davos and ask if

you fundamentally agree with Oxfam

that the capitalist system only

benefits people at the top?

The

Oxfam report made it clear that 180

of the 200 global corporations

partly put themselves in tax havens,

that the very richest people's

wealth has grown by 700 people in

one year, while the majority of the

rest of the world population are

either on stagnant wages or many

industrial countries, and the

poorest countries of the world,

falling. Oxfam have pointed out some

very uncomfortable truths to a very

self-satisfied elite in Davos and

John McDonnell was conveying

probably an uncomfortable message to

them.

The World Bank says that over

1 billion people have been taken out

of poverty by the definition of

having less than $2 a day, by the

capitalist system, by the market

system.

1.2 billion have been taken

to a slightly higher level than they

were before. Taken out of poverty is

perhaps a little bit generous. Does

that mean the free market economy is

working? No, it means that those

people have been taken out of the

worst poverty they could be in.

The

driver of the development is the

economy?

It is a combination of

trade, a combination of public

investment, in health, housing and

education. The country has had the

fastest-growing change in the wealth

of its individual people, those

countries are those that invest in

health, housing and education.

That

includes China, brought in as a

socialist economy, they brought in

economic reforms and 8 million

Chinese have been taken out of

poverty?

I am not sure what you

define that as, it is very straight

driven and organised.

Are you going

to give us Chinese economy?

No,

absolutely not. But I'm making the

point that China has grown massively

since 1949 and then after the death

of Chairman Mao, the Greatly

Forward, and so forth. It has taken

a lot of people out of poverty, but

there are massive issues of

environmental destruction and

degradation, as well as a massive

issue of human rights.

Is there

anything capitalism gets right?

Capitalism is a system that has

evolved, it is a system that is

there, it is a system that can ...

But hasn't got anything right?

It

does invest, mainly for its own

benefit. But it does, of course,

gets challenged. Isn't that what

social movements are about? Isn't

that what trade unions are about?

Isn't that what our democracy is

about?

Has a good socialist, would

you effectively like the capitalist

and free-market system to disappear

in this country after a few terms of

Labour Government?

What we want to

do is deal with the issues as of

now, as of people. You asked David

Liddington about homelessness,

disgusting, disgracing and

unnecessary.

What would you do about

that in the short term? There is

house-building and long-term

projects that will get it down

eventually. For those people that

are homeless on the streets of

Camden and elsewhere tonight, what

would a Labour Government do?

Immediately purchase a thousand

properties across the country to

give immediate housing to those

people that are currently homeless.

At the same time, require local

authorities to build far more. The

problem is that homeless people,

rough sleeping, they begged to get

money for a shelter for the night,

stay there or a short stay hostel...

Sorry...

Can I finish? I spent time

in a hostel discussing this. The

problem then is move on

accommodation. The problem is not

having an address, so you can claim

benefits will get a job.

Absolutely... You say build more.

But at the same time, all across

London and many parts of the UK,

there are great big, glossy glass

powers being put up to sell flats to

wealthy foreigners, and they are not

selling those flats, they are empty

at the moment. Would a Labour

government put the empty flats that

are all around and other homeless

people together and oblige the

people that are owning these flats

they cannot sell to let homeless

people live there?

We would give

local authorities the power to take

over copies that are deliberately

kept vacant. When you have, in the

middle of an area where there is a

lot of housing stress, many people

rough sleeping, you get luxury,

glossy, glistening buildings, sold

off plan, two long distant

deliberately distance investors that

might buy and sell that before it is

even built. Hang on, let's look at

social priorities. Many people are

homeless. Many people are living in

overcrowded accommodation. Many

children cannot leave home because

they cannot raise the deposit for a

private rented flat, no chance of

buying or a council house.

A classic

case of the market getting something

publicly wrong with ludicrous

results. What would a Labour

government do about it?

Intervention

into the market in a number of ways,

building Council properties,

lifetime secure rent, regulation of

the private sector to give longer

tenancies and give the power to

local authorities to do it

appropriately to their own areas.

Thirdly, some kind of government

backed mortgage scheme to help

first-time buyers to buy something.

My own constituency, the level of

home ownership has gone down from

probably 50% or 60% down to less

than 30%.

No suggestion of obliging

pupil at Bill is towers to hand them

over?

I said earlier that we would

give local authorities the power to

take over deliberately kept vacant

properties. There is something

grossly insulting about the idea you

build a luxury block, look at the

pictures around us of London,

deliberately keeping it empty,

knowing that with property price

inflation in the investor is going

to make 10% or 12% a year.

May be

less these days.

Maybe bit less.

Surely we have to have a social

objective and social priority in

society?

You are not worried about

talking about social interaction?

Once you got a nice little card when

you joined Labour, public ownership

of production and exchange, the

famous Klaus four. Wouldn't that be

a great thing for your supporters?

We have a statement on the card

about common endeavour, it is about

social justice. It was written

during Tony Blair's time. We are

putting forward, as we did in the

election and continue to come a very

clear set of policy proposals. The

people of this country, and a

Labour, we will deal with

homelessness and poverty by bringing

in £10 an hour Living Wage. We will

challenge the gig economy. We will

challenge insecure work. Above all,

we will invest in a growing

economy...

Why did you say proudly

that we are the Labour Party, we are

a socialist party, not a party to

manage capitalism, as Tony Benn

feared the Labour Party have become?

It is what we do that is important.

Inevitably, the European issue,

Brexit and so forth, it has been a

while since we talked about this.

Last time, I didn't have very fat on

your view.

I thought you got a long

way.

I didn't at all. Keir Starmer

was clearer. I wanted to check that

you agree with what he said.

Keir

and I get along fine.

Do you agree

with him?

He said he want absolute

pop bear maximum possible access to

European markets once we leave. He

has always said we will leave, that

suggests we will carry on basically

mimicking their regulations and ways

of doing things in order to secure

that close trading relationship.

The point we have discussed

frequently is this, the referendum

gave us the result it did. We wanted

to remain and reform, but that ship

has sailed. What we wanted to do was

say that we are going to protect

jobs, the supply chains on both

sides of the channel. There has to

be the closest possible trading

relationship with Europe. There has

to be a tariff free access to

European markets and tariff free

access to European trade.

That is

the objective?

That is where we are

going.

To get that, we need to do

certain things in this country. We

have to agree that our regulations

are going to continue being very

close to EU regulations, otherwise

they don't want that kind of

relationship.

We have said that all

along. If you have a regulatory

environment, which some

conservatives want in this country,

undermining of consumer protection

rights, for example, meaning we

would be importing food products

that are made to unsafe standards,

that sort of thing, clearly that is

undermining Europe. We would have a

regulatory environment that is

commensurate with the European

levels of regulate. Obviously, half

of our trade is with Europe.

Keir

Starmer also said we may need to pay

them some money for access to that

market, as Norway does. Do you

agree?

That is some way down the

line.

Would you agree on principle?

At some way down the line if we need

to do that or not. The point has to

be about the regulatory environment.

Above all, able to influence the

regulations that come. That means a

trading relationship with Europe

that gives us the opportunity to

negotiate. Our objectives are

that... There are a lot of jobs in

this country dependent on trade with

Europe.

Absolutely. The final thing

that Keir Starmer said to me was

that there has to be an easy

movement of people, not free

movement, because that is part of

the EU, but easy movement of people

after we leave, between the

continent and the UK?

The problem with undermining

workers' rights has been a serious

one so there will be an enforcement

of the agency agenda that the EU has

put forward and preventing

wholescale workers brought in to

undercut and undermine.

So that

means people...

Then you can have

easy movement.

Indeed, and we have a

recruitment crisis at the NHS now

particularly of many nurses from

Poland and other countries that have

often traditional come to work in

this country.

We are making

progress, you have agreed to easy

movement, you might have to pay some

money...

The point is... I love the

Norwegians, they are wonderful, they

gave me a Christmas present. What we

want to do is have that serious

economic relationship with Europe

but the referendum happened, and it

happened for a multiplicity of

reasons, one of which was the lack

of investment by everybody in

post-industrial areas where there is

a gig economy, insecure work and

deep levels of poverty and unless

this country faces up to the

inequalities between north and

south, the left behind communities

and the poverty they face and the

sense of hopelessness in those

communities, we have got some bad

times ahead.

But now we have this

big national choice about what kind

of relationship we have with the EU

and I'm trying to establish where

the Labour would like to end up on

that and it sounds like you by and

large agree with Keir Starmer.

We

recognise the result of the

referendum, and we are able to

influence the regulations which we

will or will not enforced.

We won't

be able to influence their

regulations of course.

Know but with

the trade relationship we can

discuss what we want.

Would you want

to keep Britain inside the customs

union?

We would want a form of

customs union, but no because it

would require being a member of the

EU which we are not.

This could be a

member of the customs union without

being a member of the EU.

We need to

make sure any agreement with the EU

gives a chance to influence the

situation we are in and the trading

relationships we want. I would want

to see trade relations with the rest

of the world going on and increasing

of course but also I would want to

see conditions put on those,

environmental conditions, human

rights protections.

So it would be a

different kind of customs union.

Have that within some form but often

not enforce. Surely we want to be an

influence for good in the world.

Your members want to be inside the

single market and the customs union,

and they want a second referendum.

You always say you listen to your

members, why don't you listen to

them about these things?

There are

numbers of opinion polls that have

been done, yes the membership of the

Labour Party overwhelmingly voted to

remain, overwhelmingly Labour Party

supporters voted to remain but the

third of them didn't. I want to win

the next election, I want to bring

people together. We want to be a

government that works for the whole

country, hence the position we have

adopted which is of a trade

relationship with Europe and social

justice in Britain.

Let's come back

to the fundamental question of the

single market. You have always said

Britain cannot be a member of the

single market, in which case what

about Norway, that is a member of

the single market.

Norway accepts

all of the rules of the single

market, cannot influence them

whatsoever, and is a rather

different economy to hours because

it is heavily dependent on mainly

oil and we are not. The Norway model

is not an exact one. I spent a lot

of time discussing this issue with

the Norwegian Labour Party. That is

their position but they do have an

economy that is dependent very

heavily on oil.

Could we join Efta?

We could work with Efta countries

but the principle has to be the

trade relationship.

Can I turn to

the question of a second referendum,

even Nigel Farage so that might be

an appropriate thing, David Davis

said if you cannot change your mind

what is democracy forks, so why is

the Labour Party not in favour of a

second referendum?

What we asked for

an Parliament has been a meaningful

vote at the end of it. This bill was

an undemocratic power grab by the

Government, we are not asking for a

second referendum.

Let's move to

another big area at the moment which

is the NHS. John McDonnell wants an

emergency budget for the NHS if you

win the election. Is it not the case

the NHS doesn't need an emergency

budget, it needs a really serious

new plant to fund it properly over

decades and that requires looking

again at the way it is funded,

earmarked taxes or whatever?

earmarked taxes or whatever?

A

Labour government would invest

immediately in the NHS, we were

putting 40 billion -- we would put

in 40 billion, stop privatising NHS

services and look at the contracts

which are costing vast amounts of

money for each hospital which has

gone into a PFI.

Do you think a self

identified transgender woman is a

woman?

Yes, the position of the

party is that where you have self

identified as a woman, then you are

treated as a woman, yes.

So what is

your message, there's a lot of

feminists including old friends of

yours like Linda Baros who are

worried that the elaborate structure

created by the Labour Party to

ensure there are more women MPs and

push women further up through the

Labour Party is in some way being

compromised by this?

I'm happy to

meet and talk with them. The point

is where there is self

identification, and as Isabel

pointed out in your discussion at

the start of the programme, these

people have been through a big

decision, a big process, a big

trauma, let's look at the human

beings in front of us.

So whatever

concerns feminists have about women

only short lists, that should be

ignored?

No, let's talk to them

about it and find some way forward.

But if your mind is made up...

My

mind is to look at

mind is to look at the person in

front of me, that is their

identification and it should be

respected.

Can I move on to what's

happening inside the party because

they raised more than £20,000 to

campaign on this issue, is your

message is that they should stop

raising that?

No, people are free to

raise these issues and have that

discussion. We will have that

discussion and that debate. The

whole point has to be about the

identity and the rights of the

individual.

We were talking about

Linda Belos, she said Labour will

lose thousands of women members,

people who grew up with the

privilege of being boys and men are

not women.

I would like to talk to

lender about this, I respect the

views she has put the position of

the party is that self

identification is what it is.

Let's

move a foreign issue, you have been

reluctant to condemn the Government

of Iran. Amnesty international...

You are spending too much time

reading The Mail, do you know that?

I was reading a post about an event

celebrating...

I was on a delegation

to Iran in the company of a number

of other MPs including Jack Straw. I

spent the whole of the time at that

delegation discussing the nuclear

issue and human rights. I raised

human rights at every conceivable

opportunity during that. I think

Iran and the nuclear deal is good

and welcome but the issues of human

rights abuse in Iran of executions,

of... Heading, torture.

of... Heading, torture. Their father

has to be human rights demands made

on the Government.

You took money

from Iran.

A very long time ago I

did some programmes for press TV. I

ceased to do any programmes when

they treated the green movement the

way they did and I also, and all of

those occasions, made my voice clear

about human rights abuses because I

want to lead a government that puts

human rights at the centre of its

policy, no matter how uncomfortable

it is, with any government around

the world and I have consistently

raised those issues with every world

leader I have met.

You have been

very outspoken about human rights

abuse in Saudi Arabia, will you be

as outspoken about what's going on

in Iran?

Yes.

You remember the woman

who took off her hijab in the middle

of the street because she did not

want to be told what to wear, and

she has now disappeared.

I want you

to respect human rights, I want you

to be part of and respect the human

rights Council of the United Nations

and weak as a Labour government will

not walk away from the European

Convention on human rights or the

human rights Council. Human rights

is something that was fought for by

ordinary people, defended by brave

human rights defenders around the

world. I am committed human rights

will be the core of our foreign

policy.

You thought at one point you

would be Prime Minister by now, will

you be Prime Minister by next year?

We will have to see but if there is

an election, bring it on, we will do

it.

Coming up

on the Sunday Politics,

Sarah Smith talks to the former

Conservative Cabinet

minister Theresa Villiers,

who has concerns about

the Government's Brexit policy.

And the Shadow Cabinet minister

Jon Trickett will be talking

about the direction of travel

in the Labour Party.

That's the Sunday Politics

here on BBC One at 11 o'clock.

Almost out of time.

Join me again at the same time next

Sunday, when I'll be talking

to the Sinn Fein leader,

Gerry Adams, as he steps down as

president of his party.

For now, we have one of the most

beautiful classical songs ever

composed for the male voice.

This song from 1904

was written for that

era's finest tenor,

the great Caruso.

Ever since, this piece has become

a concert favourite.

Joseph Calleja, currently starring

in Tosca at Covent Garden,

has a new album out on Friday.

He's here today to perform

"Matinnata", which translates

quite appropriately as "Morning".

Good morning.

# L'aurora di bianco vestita

# Gia l'uscio dischiude al gran sol

# Di gia con le rosee sue dita

# Carezza de' fiori lo stuol!

# Commosso da un fremito arcano

# Intorno il creato gia par

# E tu non ti desti, ed invano

# Mi sto qui dolente a cantar

# Metti anche tu la veste bianca

# E schiudi l'uscio al tuo cantor!

# Ove non sei la luce manca

# Ove tu sei nasce l'amor

# Ove non sei la luce manca

# Ove tu sei nasce l'amor