04/02/2018 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

This week, we are

promised, a crucial

confrontation between the two Tory

views on Brexit at a War Cabinet

chaired by the Prime Minister.

Those who want a decisive break

with the EU are issuing menacing

briefings about what will happen

to Theresa May if she doesn't

do what they tell her.

Those who want a much closer

relationship with Europe,

like the Chancellor,

are digging in too.

Mrs May's third way,

a generous bespoke deal,

is beginning to look a bit

like a unicorn: glimpsed, rumoured,

but never seen and suspiciously shy.

I'm joined by the Home Secretary,

Amber Rudd, who has, perhaps,

seen this bespoke deal

and could even describe it to us.

And by the Liberal Democrat

leader Sir Vince Cable -

the man who wants to be

the British Emmanuel Macron.

I'll ask him how it's going.

Plus, Gerry Adams, who is standing

down as president of Sinn Fein for

the looks back over a controversial

and tumultuous life.

But we'll be talking

about Labour too.

The London Borough of Haringey has

been rocked by a huge row over

private money and public housing.

Claire Kober, who's stepping

down as council leader,

is in the studio this

morning as well.

And reviewing the news,

Munira Mirza, author,

blogger and a former

Conservative Deputy Mayor of London.

And in the week when Buzzfeed

had a big Brexit scoop,

their UK editor in chief

Janine Gibson.

But first the headlines

with Tina Daheley.

Good morning.

MPs have warned against cutting

the number of Royal Marines

or the ships they use to carry

out beach landings.

The Government is reported to be

considering axing up to 2,000

Marines, along with the Royal Navy's

two amphibious assault ships.

The Commons Defence Select Committee

says such a move would undermine one

of Britain's elite fighting forces.

The Conservative MP, Julian Lewis,

is chairman of the committee.

There are only about 6500 Royal

Marines but they supply 40% of our

special forces personnel. Think of

the knock-on effect and why is any

of this happening? It is happening

because there are black holes in the

defence budget.

A senior Conservative MP and Leave

supporter has accused ministers

of being vague and

divided over Brexit.

Writing in the Sunday Telegraph,

Bernard Jenkin said civil servants

deserved an "unambiguous and united

direction" from ministers,

singling out the Chancellor,

Philip Hammond, for criticism.

Senior ministers are due to meet

this week to discuss

the future trade relationship

between the UK and EU.

The Prime Minister is expected

to announce plans to make it

an offence under electoral law

to intimidate parliamentary

candidates and their campaigners.

In a speech later this week,

Mrs May will say recent cases

of politicians being abused -

in the street and online -

risk toxifying public debate.

Scotland Yard is looking into two

more allegations of sexual assault

against the Hollywood film

producer Harvey Weinstein.

It brings the total number of women

who have reported him

to British police to nine.

The claims came as the Hollywood

actress, Uma Thurman, also alleged

he assaulted her on two occasions.

Mr Weinstein's team say

the accusations are false.

An Olympic ice hockey team,

with players from both North

and South Korea, will compete

for the first time later today.

The all-women's team will take

on Sweden in a friendly

match before the start

of the Winter Olympics next week.

North Korea's participation

is being seen as a show

of reconciliation with the South.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC One

is at one o'clock.

Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you.

We are going to look at some of

those stories in more detail but now

look at the headlines on the front

pages. England expects says the

Sunday Telegraph. Also the

interview. Theresa May is told,

don't let Hammond ruin Brexit. The

Sunday Times has the doping scandal

hitting the winter Olympics. They

also claim that three Brexiteers art

or plotting to get rid of Theresa

May. Not a lot of detail but making

menacing noises. -- are all

plotting. In the Observer and its

new tabloid form there is the civil

service and Andrew Turnbull hitting

back against those people saying it

is reminiscent of the stab in the

back myth in Germany. And Uma

Thurman on almost every front page.

It is with some dread we look again

at a chance by Oris Johnson, Michael

Gove and Jacob Rees Mogg. The Sunday

Times have illustrated this with a

picture of them wearing musketeer

hats, trying to cheer us up a bit.

-- Boris Johnson. Not his hugely

detailed story. There are a couple

of Gori quotes about the cavalry is

coming and we are ready for a

contest and there will be a war. It

feels like a tactical move.

Very few

details and scepticism. When they

say, but we have the numbers in the

Tory Party for our wing of the

argument that they are right, aren't

they?

This story looks a bit like

fake news. It is based on quotes

from MPs not named. I am fairly well

acquainted with the goings-on in

Westminster and it does not ring

true. Certainly not this plot. It

feels very unlikely makes for a very

good newspaper headline. Both

borrowers and Jeffrey Rees Mogg box

office. -- Jacob Rees Mogg. To the

credit of Theresa May she was a

Remainer and has committed to

leaving the EU for that she is

trying hard with the parliamentary

majority against Brexit. That is the

tension.

Boris is basically a

blushing violet are not interested

in promoting himself.

I do not think

he is involved in this plot.

There

is a real choice for Theresa May to

make about the customs union and

which way she is going. I joked

about her option being like a

unicorn, rustling in the forest and

you cannot see it. We are told it's

there but we are beginning to

believe it is not there. Quite soon

she has to come down off the fence

and say she will be sticking closely

to the EU after we leave she will

not be sticking closely at all. I is

a genuine choice for the country.

We

are seeing a lot of jostling on the

front pages about where people think

she should be a question. It is not

going to be fake news. Tim Shipman,

who has written it, is a very good

and well sourced journalist he has

not made it up.

He has suggested

this is a warning from some Tory

MPs. That is not quite the same is a

conspiracy from these three

individuals. We have to be careful,

to be honest about it. It is true,

there are people who are very

disappointed with her and want the

debate to move on. We have been

saying that for the last six months

have it cannot possibly last and

then it moves on.

We have been

watching Jacob Rees Mogg in the

scuffle at Bristol University but

the Mail on Sunday has a big double

page interview with him.

It is a

remarkable scene of Jacob Rees Mogg

speaking at a university.

He has

been cool about it, saying it is

overdone.

He has handled it well he

has not overplayed the sense of

being evicted and has shrugged it

off. People arrived wearing masks,

clearly wanting to cause trouble. He

went up to them and started to talk

to them and reason with him.

Actually think there is a big issue

about on university campuses and

students trying to close down

debate, which is very worrying. His

way of dealing with it is the right

one.

His message on Brexit is clear.

He has cast doubt on the Treasury

forecast report that was leaked this

week. He owned a number of other

Tory MPs have said the civil service

is not acting impartially. There is

another story in the Observer of

that.

Civil servants getting

involved? Can I ask you a little bit

about Jacob Rees Mogg? You

understand all of theirs. The video

of this tussle, very short and hard

to see what was going on. It has

been shed all over Twitter and

Facebook for about 12 hours now it

has done Jacob Rees Mogg presumably

quite a lot of good.

There are

several perspectives on the video

you can find different versions of

an different media outlets will

promote different versions, as with

everything. He comes out of it just

fine. He did not come well out of

casting doubt over the document last

week and just repeatedly lying. He

did not like what the document said.

He did not like that there was a

good -- no good scenario and he lied

about the way it came. I feel

strongly this war on the civil

service has become an ideological

position where actually you have to

trust the people who have gone and

done the work. If you don't like

them, that is really troubling that

is what it said.

Sir Andrew Turnbull

is

the main person quoted, head of the

civil service back in the day.

Very

experienced and mostly keeps his

mouth shut. It is interesting that

he has done this. He and another

former head of the civil servants,

formerly involved in the civil

service, Robin Butler.

He was

involved, very eminent.

Suggesting

these attacks are reminiscent of

1930s Germany. The important thing

to remember is despite the

indignation, where the civil service

is being accused of not being

impartial, someone in the civil

service did leak this document with

a view to implementing policy and

that suggests there is a view... You

are busy involved crucially in this

story. I presume something that was

mentioned...

It was not left on a

photocopier, was it?

Whether it was

stolen by one of your journalists, I

don't know.

You have chosen another

story about Facebook and the future

of British elections and so one.

That has gone upside down. Your

tablet is no better than my tablet.

It is my tablet. There you go.

This

is a story we published last night

about the Facebook news feed. It

does play into the whole thing about

whether a fact is biased or the fact

that you don't like the fact is

biased. Facebook's news feed, they

said they will change the algorithm

to show less inflammatory news

stories and more pictures of your

lovely pets. Everyone is panicking

about the dilation of traffic.

Instead of our lovely news stories,

it will be pictures of your baby

cousin. This is not just a

journalism problem, it is a politics

problem. It is particularly a

problem for people worrying about

the next election, which I know we

all hope and trust is a few years

away.

To be clear about this, if

someone on Facebook decide we're

getting too many stories about

social housing, they can change the

algorithm to insure far fewer can

appear.

I am sure if Facebook were

here, they would say they would not

take a subject or a biased or

anything like that to change it.

Because of the great success of

highly talented direct campaigning,

in the Labour Party, the Tories have

put in a lot of effort into

upgrading digital marketing. As Jim

points out in the story, our

political editor, they may be

changing their campaigning for the

last election.

They are a bit behind

the curve on all of this. Finally,

can I talk about the Momentum story.

We will be talking to Claire Kober

in a moment but the Sunday Times has

done a big operation on this.

Here

we go. A Labour council, where the

leader has now walked away because

she said she was essentially being

targeted by Momentum activists. It

is interesting that this week it is

presented by a number of

commentators as a working-class

takeover of labour. Actually, I

think it is the opposite. Claire

Kober has said the kinds of people

attacking her work whitehead men.

Momentum denied doing all of this

stuff. It is a favoured media story

now, the wickedness of Momentum.

You

have to be honest about what is

really happening but there is a

bigger shift in the Labour Party,

with the changes in the NEC, the way

in which people who have been

formally banned from the Labour

Party are being allowed back in.

This goes to the heart of the issue,

where the working class is in the

Labour Party. It seems to be more

and more removed from that.

and more removed from that.

Reeta

Chakrabarti wrote this week, it is

one person's at it. For residents it

is a housing problem in that area

and it is that every generation.

A

theme we will pick up in a moment.

Thank you.

Now, picking up from

that Haringey story...

Councillor Claire Kober,

shortly to depart after ten years

leading Haringey Council.

Before we get onto the issue at the

centre of all of this great you said

you suffered bullying and abuse.

What do you mean by that?

I had been

a leader for ten years, a borough

leader and as any politician in a

front-line role, you become pretty

resilient. My experience has been at

have experienced more threats, more

bullying, more intimidation than in

the previous eight years put

together.

And sexist as well?

Absolutely sexist. It runs from the

way I was treated by the National

executive of my party just last week

and I don't believe a man would have

been treated in the same way,

through two examples of in Council

meetings were Labour Party members

have been ending -- at the end the

meeting had shouted at me and sunk a

police song, every breath you take,

as a means of intimidating me. That

is a song about stalking.

Who do you blame for this?

I point

to a political toxic culture, I

don't blame individuals because if

you look at these acts in isolation

they don't look too significant but

when you put them together you see a

whole culture. We see it in the way

Jacob Rees-Mogg was treated at the

weekend, in the wake Diane Abbott

receives abuse, in the fact the

political editor of the BBC has to

take bodyguards to Labour Party

conference.

A lot of people have

said this is caused by Momentum, who

deny any involvement. You accused

John one of calling you incompetent,

is there not a

is there not a danger of...

A senior

Labour council leader, died on the

role for a long time and I think

that is outrageous behaviour.

Do you

have hard evidence and if so why

have you not complain to the party

because there is a procedure. You

could complain formally but you have

chosen not to do that.

To take on

example of Momentum's behaviour, I

proposed a motion against

anti-Semitism. Lament called a

demonstration to that meeting to

protest against that motion --

momentum.

momentum.

Demonstrations are lawful.

But we are screamed and shouted up

in that meeting, members were told

they would be seen in their

constituency Labour parties.

So why

did you not complain to the Labour

Party?

Because in complaining to the

Labour Party I would complain to the

very body I feel most disillusioned

by which is the national executive

committee. Why would I complain to

people who have treated me in this

way?

Let's turn to the issue itself,

this Haringey development vehicle.

You got into bed as it were with an

Australian property company and a

lot of locals feel that company was

going to demolish their houses and

they would not be provided with

sufficient quantities of low-cost

housing so they could stay in the

area and they would have to leave

the area, hence the phrase social

cleansing.

We need to look at the

housing crisis in my borough, 9000

families on the waiting list without

the security of a home. 3000

families in temporary accommodation,

more children than ever being

referred to social services because

of their housing situation. What do

we do about that? Councils do not

have the power or the resources or

the expertise to deal with that on

their own so do we say ideological

age as the Labour Party we believe

we can only work as the state, or do

we say there is compromise but we

have to work in partnership in order

to deliver?

There are lawful lot of

local people who don't buy that

solution and they are not limited to

the hard left. David Lammy, the

local MP, who is not a Jeremy Corbyn

supporter, says "I'm not convinced

it will deliver the affordable homes

we need in Tottenham." If you look

at the elephant and Castle

development in he gate, they were

promised there would be 500 housing

units, turned out there were only

87. The same company you are working

with, and you see the same pattern

all over the place. Big promises by

developers who come to local people

and they are not there.

This was not

the traditional development

agreement, it was a partnership

deal. However, I understand there

are risks. You talk about the local

community, there has been noise

around this so I spent the summer

with a group of councillors knocking

on 450 doors on the various dates

affected by these schemes.

And lots

of people opposed it.

Actually we

found only a handful of people with

concerns but I heard many more

people asking when they could move,

saying their housing situation is

intolerable, and we don't see any

other way through this.

Let me read

you something Rita chakra Barty

wrote, "Please ditch the cliches

about suburban revolutionaries, the

death of HDV is a victory for

democracy of the machine politics

and victory ..."

There are still

thousands of families with no

housing security and this week they

have even less. Being told this is a

victory when the activists who are

campaigning against it have no

alternative that will develop

anything like the scale housing to

me feels like the politics of jam

tomorrow and that feels acceptable.

Isn't the truth about this but you

have left because you are losing?

I

have been a loyal party member for

20 years to every Labour leader. I

haven't spoken out against any

Labour leader but I have been in a

role in ten years in a borough that

has faced problems and my politics

is of course defined by pragmatism

and problem solving because I want

to make life better. I worry about

the fact we are moving into an area

where the politics of ideology, of

blinkered dogma will tell the

politics of pragmatism and I say the

only losers in that scenario are the

communities that need a Labour

government most.

Thank you for

talking to us.

A little later on the Sunday

Politics, Sarah Smith will be

speaking to Shadow Health Secretary

Jonathan Ashworth about NHS funding

and those events in Haringey too.

And the Conservative chairman

Brandon Lewis will be

talking about the future

of his party and the Government.

That's the Sunday Politics

here on BBC One at 11 o'clock.

And so to the weather.

It's been warm, balmy, sun-kissed.

But sadly not in Britain.

Over to Ben Rich in

the weather studio.

Sun-kissed we might just about

manage, balmy we certainly won't

over the next few days. It will feel

absolutely like winter, cold enough

today for wintry showers in

Aberdeenshire this morning. Eastern

areas seeing the lion's share of the

cloud. Sleet and snow over high

ground. Further west more sunshine.

Light winds mean six or 7 degrees in

Belfast won't feel too bad but in

London you might get seven on the

thermometer and it will feel more

like freezing because it will be

windy towards the south and

south-east. Through tonight the

winds will bring wintry showers,

mostly snow showers into Monday

morning across East Anglia and the

south-east. A few centimetres of

snow is possible. Elsewhere fog

patches and a cold night, but it is

in the eastern areas where we could

have disruption tomorrow morning.

Snow showers and ice as well, some

of those showers drifting further

west but tomorrow a lovely looking

day. Crisp and cold but sunny. As we

look deeper into the coming week, it

remains cold with widespread frost

by night and just about wherever you

are there is the chance for some

snow. Certainly nothing

are there is the chance for some

snow. Certainly nothing balmy in the

outlook.

The man whose news is mostly chilly!

Now, this spring marks 30 years

of the Liberal Democrats.

People keep talking these days

about a new centre third force

in British politics.

But they don't generally

mean the Lib Dems.

Why not?

In the latest of our leader

interviews,

Sir Vince Cable joins me now.

Can I start by reading something

Paddy Ashdown said recently, talking

about the Conservatives, "According

government after this lot is now

completely unavoidable unless the

centre gets its act together,

creating a people's movement.

Emmanuel Macron is the model." Do

you agree with that?

Partly, that

defines the threat to Britain from

the extremes on the opportunity for

people with a sensible middle ground

opinion but of course we are not

France, we have a different voting

system. I think the political

upheaval we are going to get this

year in the wake of Brexit does

indeed present major opportunities

and

and the Liberal Democrats are there,

we are well established party. We

have record levels of membership, it

is expanding, younger even than the

Labour Party and its demographic and

we are doing well on the ground.

But

not quite according to Paddy,

because who -- it was asked who is

the British Macron, and he said

"There isn't one. I was saying to

someone the other day John the

Baptist has arrived, the public is

hungry, but Jesus Christ won't turn

up". He doesn't seem to have faith

in the Liberal Democrats.

I'm

certainly not claiming to be Jesus

Christ! But I am leading a party

that is fundamentally right, United

and clear on Brexit. We are winning

the public argument which is

essentially we have a vote on the

final deal and I am very comfortable

I am in the right place. I'm

currently trying to ask the Labour

Party to come out and support this

position.

When you became leader,

you said you would bring big ideas

and rejuvenate the party, what is

your biggest idea, apart from

Brexit?

Tomorrow we will be

launching your views on health. We

have withdrawn on ten high-level

people with experience in the health

service. We will be presenting a set

of proposals which relate to the

financial needs of the health

service. And put it on a sustainable

basis. I think a lot of people would

find that package attractive.

Are

you going to ask for a different

kind of taxation to fund the NHS?

Because if not it's what everyone

else is saying.

It is not what

everyone else is saying but it is

built around the idea we have to

have a dedicated form of taxation.

Earmarked tax of some kind?

That

principle, and there are people

around arguing for that.

You talked

about Brexit before that. The

trouble is if you look at the

polling, and John Curtis who is the

guru of these things, says people

are not changing their minds about

Brexit, there is no great driving

the country for second referendum.

They think you are wrong on the

second but right on the first.

Polling suggests people haven't

moved great deal, although there is

a bit of a shift to Remain. There is

a move on the fact that people feel

the Government is making a mess of

the negotiations, and supporting

vote on the final deal, and that

will be crucial.

There is a lot of

support for a vote on the final deal

in the House of Commons but the

second referendum is a step beyond

that. You have a dozen MPs. The

Labour leader made it clear he is

against a second referendum, so are

the Tories, therefore in practical

terms it is a dead duck, isn't it?

Jeremy Corbyn is crucial to this.

The vast majority of his MPs, party

supporters, are very concerned about

the fact he hasn't opposed Brexit.

He's effectively worked in collusion

with Theresa May and her government.

There is a simmering anger about

that and I think as we get through

this year and come closer to the

final decision, as it becomes clear

that we are going to get a bad deal

from these negotiations, he will be

under enormous pressure to agree to

support a referendum on the final

deal and I think the Labour Party

will come round to it, as will a

significant number of dissident

Conservatives.

It seems pretty clear

it is hard to imagine how we will

not formally leave the EU in March

next year, it is quite close now,

and I'm wondering what happens to

the Lib Dems after that, do you

become the Return party?

I don't

agree it is inevitable.

Highly

likely though.

The probability is it

will happen, but there is a

possibility it won't. We are not

just an anti-Brexit party, we have a

wide range of policies, apart from

the issues on health, I have been

setting out our views on the extreme

inequalities of wealth, I have

focused on homelessness over the

Christmas period and how we will

deal with that so we are broadly

based party with a liberal

democratic agenda and that will

develop whether or not Brexit

happens.

But if Brexit happens, will

you be a party campaigning to return

to the EU?

Returning to the EU wants

Britain has left would be much more

difficult than staying in. So not

necessarily? Not necessarily. There

is a set of hurdles you would have

to cross to rejoin and we would have

to rethink their position at that

stage but it is not inevitable.

There is a high possibility this

whole extremely damaging process can

be stopped.

Are you enjoying the

job?

Yes, I am.

Really?

You may have

forgotten but a year ago I was out

of work, going round book Festival

is promoting my novel.

A wonderful

life!

Look, I have been in politics

in some form for over half a

century.

And you have got the job

you always wanted. A bit like your

friend Menzies Campbell or Gordon

Brown, perhaps not at the right

moment, perhaps it has come too late

when the party is in the doldrums

and it is hard to turn it round.

I

think the timing issue is right but

not in the way you mean. I'm very

fortunate I'm in this position,

probably one of the most important

turning points of British political

history, and I and my party have an

opportunity to be a critical player

in that so actually yes I am happy

to be here.

We assume the next

election will be in 2022, will you

be leading the Liberal Democrats at

that point?

Yes, I am here for the

duration. One of the problems is we

have no idea when the next election

will be. It may go four and a half

years, it could be some time next

year if the current book evils in

the Tory party get out of control

but we don't know.

Sir Vince Cable,

as always a pleasure to talk to you.

Few political lives divide

opinion like Gerry Adams.

For some, he's a man of blood

who defended many IRA

atrocities during The Troubles

in Northern Ireland, to others,

a courageous peacemaker

who was instrumental

in the Good Friday

Agreement 20 years ago.

After 35 years as President

of Sinn Fein, Mr Adams is standing

down this month and handing over

to a new generation

of Republican leaders.

I sat down with him last week

in Dundalk, near the Irish border,

to reflect on his life campaigning

for a united Ireland.

I began by asking him whether he had

failed in that endeavour.

No, because when I joined Sinn Fein,

which is over 50 years ago,

it was banned, it was outlawed.

There was no prospect really

of a strategy for Irish unity.

If I look back now, half a million

people vote for Sinn Fein.

We're the second largest

party in the North.

There's now a peaceful

way to get Irish unity.

Your old comrade Martin

McGuinness never saw it.

Do you think you will see it?

Yes, if I live long enough.

You know what?

Martin's passing, I suppose,

proved to all of us you can't be

certain about anything.

I miss Martin every single day.

So, is an Irish Republic,

is Irish unity inevitable?

No, it isn't.

It's only going to happen

if we work at it.

I come from a very, very

straightforward position.

I want to see an end to the British

connection with Ireland.

How much does the Brexit vote

help your ideal of a united Ireland?

I think we need to be very,

very careful that we don't

see Brexit as something

which can be exploited.

Brexit is disastrous

for the people of Ireland.

The British government are not

at all clear about what their future

relationship with the European Union

is going to be and they are arguing

that they are going to leave

the customs union and they are going

to leave the single market,

and that will end up

a complete disaster for people

here on the end of Ireland.

The agreement that was made

recently, which moved

the negotiations into their second

phase, was a fudge.

It is filled with contradictions.

Fudge is not always bad?

Well, it's not always bad if it gets

you over a particular difficulty.

Tonnes of business people

are totally dependent on the flow

back and forth of business

and commerce across what is

an invisible border.

When a hard economic border comes

back, that's going to stunt that,

that's going to destroy it.

If it comes back.

If it comes back.

One of your own MPs

said, if it comes back,

those customs posts and those hard

pieces of infrastructure along

the border could become a target

for dissident republican groups

and mass civil disobedience

and we could see the return

of violence around the border.

Do you share that worry?

Yes.

He didn't say it was likely,

he said it was a concern and one has

to be concerned that this

would be exploited.

But, look, you see,

people have got used,

after decades of conflict,

people have got used to peace.

So, the images which you may have

or I may have of border checkpoints

and of heavy patrols...

They belong to history.

That all belongs to history.

And nobody wants that back.

Now these debates are going to be

thrashed out on the floor

of the House of Commons

and there are going to be some

very substantial votes.

If Sinn Fein took up its seats,

and even voted once or twice,

you could change the course

of British history and change

the course of history

for the whole island of Ireland.

Is it really worth republican

principle not taking those seats

and not engaging in those votes?

Well, before I leave it

at that, let me tell

you the solution to this problem.

The solution to this problem

is special designated

status for the North

within the European Union,

and that is doable.

And the Irish government

don't like this idea,

nor do they like it in Brussels.

They think it sets too many

precedents for the rest of the EU.

Well, I don't know whether

they like it or not,

because they're very flexible

in terms of how they are deal

with the European Union

and its relationships

with the various different states.

And with political will,

that is very, very doable.

Coming back to the issue

of Sinn Fein taking our seats

at Westminster, we just received

the largest vote

that we ever received.

And you have leverage.

Sorry, Andrew.

We, when we get a mandate,

obey that mandate and stay

true to that mandate.

That vote was a vote for no British

involvement in our affairs.

The centre of political gravity

being on the island of Ireland.

So, we will not betray those

people who had a choice.

Let's talk now about the past.

Why did you not join the IRA?

Because I was active

in Sinn Fein when the IRA

was just nonexistent,

in the 1960s, after the border

campaign, the whole trajectory

within republicanism

was to build politically.

And I'm one of the very small group

of people who were activists before

the problems in 1969,

one of the very few

Republicans in there.

Having said that, and it's

a matter of history.

The IRA has gone, Andrew.

The IRA has gone.

My position has been consistent,

that I was not a member of the IRA,

but I have never distanced

myself from the IRA.

Were you never tempted to join?

No, I wasn't.

I had my role in the struggle.

I like to think I have

served the struggle well.

You always supported

the armed struggle.

You always defended the IRA.

You were treated by members

of the IRA as a kind of commander

when you were in Long Kesh,

and everybody who studied you,

and I range from British

politicians to journalists,

they all think you were in the IRA.

You always say, no, I wasn't,

and I wasn't on the Army Council.

Why is it that everybody else,

including people who left

their testimony in Boston and so

forth, are sure that you were?

You'd have to ask them that, Andrew.

You know, some day I'll do

an interview and this

issue won't arise.

Now I don't mind dealing

with the issue but I

make the point again.

The IRA are gone.

I did defend the IRA,

but I also was very critical

of the IRA at times.

I don't condone everything

that the IRA did.

So, you were very, very vociferous

and very clear in condemning

the Manchester Arena bombing

by an Islamic group.

What is the moral difference

between that, for instance,

and the Birmingham pub bombings?

Well, the Birmingham pub

bombings were wrong.

I condemn that as well.

I don't have any

compunction about it.

Again, those were innocent people,

going in just to have a pint of mild

and listen to a jukebox.

I've given you my answer to that.

I would wish that no-one, no-one,

had been killed or injured

in the course of the conflict.

At some point, you changed your mind

about the physical force process

and about the use of violence.

When and why did

you change your mind?

Because we were able

to create an alternative.

When you can put forward

an alternative, sensible people

will embrace that alternative

because no one wants to be either

supporting or part...

No-one sensible wants to be

supporting or part of armed action.

So, once you present

an alternative...

It's when you close

down the options.

When you say to people...

So, it was tactical

rather than moral.

It wasn't you saying,

this is morally wrong.

Killing people like this

is the wrong thing to do morally.

It no longer works is what you're

saying, in a sense.

No, no.

I'm sorry, Andrew, I'm better able

to tell you what I think on these

matters than you to put

words into my mouth.

If we want to talk about morality,

you'd need a longer show than this.

But, look, you can only make moral

judgments about people

when you walk in their shoes.

And that's...

Thankfully, we're talking

here about history.

We're talking about

something that has passed.

So, there was not a moment

when you looked at the death

of Tim Parry or some kid,

or whatever, and you thought,

this has gone far enough.

Of course.

There was a moral revulsion.

I said that at the time.

Hark at anyone, even

if it is accidental,

hark at anyone standing over

the killing of a child, standing

over the killing of a civilian.

What's different, not entirely,

if you want to be into all of that,

if it's soldiers versus soldiers.

But in the awfulness

and the horror of war,

you cannot stand over

some of those incidents.

You spent a lot of time sitting

on the other side of a table.

From a whole stream of British

leaders, very, very early days,

Ted Heath and Willie Whitelaw

and so forth and then

John Major, Tony Blair,

Peter Mandelson, Mo Mowlam.

Which of those did most for peace

in Ireland in your view?

Well, I suppose Tony Blair.

When I would have big

issues with him around

Iraq and other matters,

and we actually, myself and Martin,

warned him about not

getting involved in Iraq...

Did you?

Oh, yes.

We said to him, don't do...

Look at the Irish experience.

Don't go in there.

But he was given an opportunity,

if you like, on a plate,

and he seized it.

So, Tony Blair, and now

Tony Blair's party is now

led by a very different man,

who has always supported

a united Ireland.

He has been a big backer

of yours over the years.

What difference would

it make to the island

of Ireland and to Sinn Fein

and your cause to have Jeremy Corbyn

as British Prime Minister,

which he might well be?

Well, I would like to see Jeremy

in that position for the benefit

of people in Britain -

leaving Ireland out of it.

I think Jeremy is an

outstanding politician.

Let's put Ireland

back into it though.

I hope my endorsement of him isn't

used against him in the time ahead.

But, yes, he and Ken Livingstone

and others kept faith

and they were the people who said,

when others said no, talk.

They were the people who were open

to conversation about how to deal

with conflict and how to get

conflict resolution processes.

But, look, let's not

pre-empt the next...

Of course not.

General election.

Gerry Adams, are you a man of faith?

Yes, I am, yes.

So, one day, you will be

judged by your maker.

When you're being judged

by your maker, will you be able

to say, I have clean hands?

Well, the one thing that

I understand about faith and,

you know, as you get older,

you reflect on all of these things.

The one thing I know

about Jesus is that he forgave.

He didn't go around condemning.

Treat people with dignity and people

will respond in a dignified way.

Treat people badly and people

will respond badly.

Nobody gets to write their own

obituary but what would be

the headline on yours?

God knows!

I'm not really interested.

Some people say to me,

"What's your legacy?"

I won't be around.

None of us will.

Gerry Adams, thank you very much

indeed for talking to us.

If there's one thing I can say

without departing from studious

neutrality on Brexit,

it's that the Conservative Party

doesn't agree with itself

about where to go next.

I'm joined by the Home

Secretary, Amber Rudd.

Welcome. Thank you.

Can I start by

asking that you have complete

confidence in civil servants,

especially is Treasury civil

servants?

Yes, I do. We are indeed

the world over for the high

standards of civil servants full

stop now more than ever we need to

make sure we attract the best into

our civil service to take on what is

an enormous challenge in terms of

leaving the youth.

When Mr Dash Mr

Rees Mogg says, for instance, they

are fiddling the figures and others

say it is propaganda, what do you

think?

I am very surprised that he

has used that language was I think

he is wrong here. The document he

particularly refers to is not a

Treasury document anyway, it is

prepared across different

departments and it is a tool for

informing those of us on the EU

subcommittee bad choices that are to

be made but not about projecting one

way or another.

Can you point me to

a single government forecast that

has been accurate?

I can reassure

you we need to have those forecasts

whenever we embark on big policy

decisions. The Treasury has them

ahead of the budget. Are they ever

right? They are what they are,

sometimes wrong, but it does not

mean we should not have them. The UK

Government needs forecasts in order

to make certain decisions. Sometimes

they are wrong but only by a degree,

they are still right about the

direction.

So you don't agree that

civil service forecasts are always

wrong and wrong for good reasons.

Steve Baker had an interesting week

this week where, over the whole

debate about what was said when, was

gracious enough to issue an apology.

We all use forecasts. It does not

mean we put all the way to people

might expect on them we have to

approach them with a certain amount

of cynicism but they help inform the

debate and decisions we make.

Civil

servants have feelings and some are

watching this programme perhaps

there is a lot of hurt by people

inside the civil service. What

visual message to them?

They are and

important. They are internationally

admired for the system we have. We

need to make sure we continue to

attract the best into the civil

service.

You say these forecasts are

credible if not exactly accurate. In

the three options for the EU they

model, British growth drops between

8%, 5% and 2%. A really significant

factor. What did you think when you

were allowed to read them?

They are

tools for helping to inform

decision-making as we go into the

critical stage for leaving the

European Union was there not

forecasts for certain consequences

of the decision-making for the big

cannot model for the domestic policy

we might take the adjustments we

could make in order to make changes

to the country as we go forward foot

or it doesn't model the changes in

industrial policy nor the changes

to...

The future is unknown. But you

must have been concerned?

I am aware

there are consequences. If you set

up trade barriers, there is a

consequence to a trading nation. I

am very enthusiastic for making sure

we have as few trade barriers as

possible. The Prime Minister has

said she wants frictionless trade at

the border. We put up trade

barriers, it will not help the

economy?

Do you think we will grow

or contract when we leave the EU?

We

will absolutely grow. We have grown

over the past two years and will

continue to sow do.

But we will grow less than we would

have done if we had not left?

The

wealth of the country is not made

entirely of trade, it's made from

culture, rule of law, ambition and

enterprise.

But let me remind you

what Philip Lay the justice minister

said this week, he said "We cannot

just dismiss this and move on. If

these figures turn out to be

anywhere near right there will be

serious questions over whether a

government could legitimately lead

country along the path with the

evidence -- which the evidence

indicates would be damaging".

It is

not the whole picture, these

forecasts are tools for

decision-making but don't put in

place elements such as other trade

deals. The other thing I would say

is the decision to leave the

European Union was not all about the

economy. We know that. It was about

sovereignty as well. In my

constituency in Hastings, we hate

the Common fisheries policy, we

would like to make sure the

fishermen all through coastal

communities get a better deal. That

is not about per capita, it is about

communities and independence.

The

other thing about these models is

they did not include what the Prime

Minister wants which is this

generous bespoke deal. I described

it at the beginning of the programme

has been a bit like unicorn, talked

about but never seen. Have you seen

it?

There have been discussions

about it. The proposal in terms of

the leaked document we talked about

sets out consequences.

What we are

talking about is some kind of Canada

like trade deal with things attached

to it to help us specifically like a

special deal for the city and for

services generally?

I'm not going to

get drawn too far into those

sectors. We are having meetings this

week. There's been a lot of

criticism about pre-leaking ahead of

decisions and I am the -- one of

those who has been critical of that.

We want to make sure the Irish

border doesn't go up again,

particularly significant having

listened to your interview with

Gerry Adams, and that we are free to

do trade deals outside the EU.

When

people like you chastise people like

me for listening to briefings and

leaks, you say go back and read the

Lancaster house speech, it is all

there, so I have done. " Whether

that means we should reach a new

customs union agreement, I hold no

preconceived opinion, I have an open

mind on how we do it" is that still

policy?

She has an open mind about

it. We proposed either a customs

arrangement or a customs

partnership, they are both

alternatives we could look at.

She's

talking about the possibility of a

customs union with some kind -- of

some kind with the rest of the EU.

We do not want to have tariffs at

the border so that is a form of

customs agreement, arrangement,

partnership.

So you would need some

kind of customs union?

It is likely

to be something within the customs

framework but I don't want to be

drawn.

It seems like you are so

intimidated by the other side of the

argument you don't actually want to

say the words customs union.

I am

not intimidated, we need to make

sure we have given a sense of

direction about what we want to

achieve, which we have. It would be

wrong to think we can give all of

the punctuation in the details.

Liam

Fox says "It is difficult to see how

being in a customs union is

compatible with having an

independent trade policy" and

Bernard Jenkin as well. It sounds

like a menacing threat if you go too

close to a customs union.

That's why

I've said we want frictionless trade

on the border, no border on the

island of Ireland, and we want to be

able to do trade deals outside the

European Union.

That is cake and

eating it in the sense everybody

seems to agree if we are in a

customs union we cannot do the big

deals around the rest of the world

but if we are not in a customs union

we have the border problem with

Ireland and the friction trade

problem as well.

You have brought

out the problems, we know they are

there, that's why we have said we

want a bespoke agreement. We are not

going to surrender before we have

had the battle.

After you have had

this two day meeting, Michel Barnier

is coming over this weekend, by the

end of this coming week, will we

have a much clearer idea of what the

British government actually wants to

negotiate?

I think it is clear what

we want to negotiate. We haven't

achieved that yet, we have made

progress in protecting EU citizens

but we need to make sure we have

this wider agreement. I don't know

how far that will go over the next

few weeks but I hope the Government

will be given the space to try to

achieve that.

You mentioned the

transition agreement, as Home

Secretary are you clear it is a red

line that once we have left the EU

in March, EU citizens won't have the

same rights they have now?

The

critical thing is they will be able

to come and go to work here. They

will need to register in order to

show they are here during the two

year period. The Prime Minister has

said she wants them to have

different settlement rights to those

who arrived before the specified

date.

That is a red line?

I'm not

going to get drawn on red lines

because the negotiations are only

just starting.

Can I put it gently

because we have heard both Michel

Barnier saying there is no way we

are going to accept that.

I think

you are surrendering to quickly

here, Andrew.

You are surrendering

slowly but still surrendering.

It is

right to have a distinction between

EU citizens who arrived before and

after. I support the Prime Minister

in taking that position.

This means,

to be clear, if the EU won't accept

our position on the transitional

rights of EU citizens coming here,

as we have been describing, there

will not be a transition period?

I

think our offer to EU citizens both

before and after the transition

period is generous and takes into

account what we want for British

citizens in the EU as well.

Essentially the Brexiteers are

saying in today's papers we have the

numbers, you people, people like

Amber Rudd and Philip Hammond and

possibly even Theresa May, will have

to see things our way or else.

The

committee that meet in order to make

these decisions, meeting twice this

week, is more united than they

think. We meet in the committee and

privately for discussions, I think

we will arrive at something which

suits us all. There may be choices

to be made in that but we all want

to arrive at a deal that works for

the UK, is that looks ahead, not

just protecting trade behind us,

looking ahead, and we all have those

interests at heart and I think can

work closely to deliver it.

The

weirdest suggestion in the papers

today is you might be Boris

Johnson's Chancellor of the

Exchequer. Can you imagine that?

That is such a difficult question,

I'm going to pass.

Let's talk about

the position of women, 100 years

after women got the vote. There's

been a lot said about where women

are now and we've had an

extraordinary

extraordinary week with yet more

Harvey Weinstein allegations, the

President's club, lots of debates

about women going to darts matches,

parading around at the beginning of

Formula One. Where do you think the

cause is right now?

As you rightly

said, it is 100 years since women

got the vote and that is something

to celebrate. Only by having women

in Government do you get women's

lives properly considered by

government and we saw that with

Harriet Harman, who did so much for

women's working lives, and we see

that now from this Government

delivering on the gender pay gap,

making sure action is taken against

violence against women and girls.

There's a big cultural change going

on, do you like to see the parading

of women at the beginning of boxing

matches ending, as it is in Formula

One?

The women in sporting events

that really inspire me are the women

playing in football, on the

athletics field, delivering.

The

President's club event are really

shocked a lot of people bought up

and down the country, behind high

streets, there are gentlemen 's

clubs everywhere. Where there is

pole dancing, lap dancing, and the

same kind of atmosphere pertains,

would you like to see that ended in

this country?

I think we are

reaching a tipping point now. The

President's club was objectionable,

and women working anywhere should

feel safe in their working

environment. What worries me most is

some of the women you are suggesting

there may not feel safe in that

working environment, that's what

matters most. Women in business

expect to be in an environment where

sexual titillation is not part of

the offer.

The Fawcett Society have

suggested misogyny should be made a

hate crime, do you agree with that?

I'm always going to look at what the

Fawcett Society are suggesting.

There is the gender recognition act

coming up as well, are you as

enthusiastic about that as Justine

Greening was?

We will be consulting

on the gender recognition act,

seeing how far we need to go with

it. Women's aid will be reviewing

their arrangements for allowing

transgender people to be working in

women's only spaces. It is a

sensitive issue, we will be

consulting on seeing what changes we

need to make, if any.

What about

transgender people going to women's

prisons for instance?

It is

something we need to look at

carefully, transgender women need to

be treated with respect and always

safe, but at the same time I want to

protect women's safe spaces.

And

what would you say to women,

including many feminists, who look

at what's happening in the women's

aid situation for instance and they

are worried about the possibility of

people who are not yet biologically

fully women being in charge of those

spaces.

I hear them and I say let's

look and wait and see what happens

with women's aid, let's make sure we

don't rush to judgment, but above

all the exception in the equality

act for only women working in

women's safe spaces will not be

touched.

Amber Rudd, thank you for

talking to us.

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

Join us at ten, whereas Britain

reaches the anniversary of 100 years

since women got the vote, we ask our

women holding themselves back? And

does evidence post problems for

religions, discussing the dead Sea

Scrolls.

That's all we've got time for -

a busy programme today.

Among my guests next week,

the actors Jeremy Irons

and Lesley Manville.

For now, goodbye.