11/02/2018 The Andrew Marr Show


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11/02/2018

Andrew Marr's guests include Penny Mordaunt MP, Andrew Gwynne MP, Henry Bolton, Anna Soubry MP and Chuka Umunna MP. Plus music from The Spitfires.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning.

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It's hard to imagine

a more disgraceful story.

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Haiti, 2011, a hideous

natural disaster.

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Aid workers, paid for by you,

employed by Oxfam,

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arrive and indulge in an orgy of

prostitution with local survivors.

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This is a terrible betrayal.

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Oxfam, one of our great

international institutions,

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is tottering, but what

of the Government?

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What did ministers know?

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And when?

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In her first major television

interview since being appointed as

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International Development Secretary,

Penny Mordaunt joins us.

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We're also promised a major

explanation of the Government's

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Brexit strategy very soon,

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we're going to get Labour

reaction

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from the Shadow Communities

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

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And to discuss whether the tectonic

plates of Brexit are now really

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shifting in Parliament,

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the Tory Remainer Anna Soubry,

and her Labour friend, Chuka Umunna.

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Plus, in the latest of our series

of leaders interviews,

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Henry Bolton, currently

the Leader of UKIP.

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His party have called an emergency

meeting for this week

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and they're out for his blood.

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Plus, the Mods are back.

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Reinvented by The Spitfires.

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Makes me feel very nostalgic!

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Reviewing the news, the former

Labour adviser and stand-up comic,

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Ayesha Hazarika, and the broadcaster

and enthusiastic Brexiteer

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Julia Hartley-Brewer.

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But first, the headlines

with Ben Thompson.

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Good morning.

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The International Development

Secretary Penny Mordaunt has warned

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overseas aid charities

that they will lose government money

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if they don't ensure vulnerable

people are properly protected.

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She described the behaviour of some

of Oxfam's workers in Haiti,

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who were accused of using

prostitutes after the 2010

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earthquake, as "horrific".

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The charity is also facing

new allegations about some

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of its workers in Chad.

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Andy Moore reports.

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After Haiti, now new allegations

about the behaviour

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of some Oxfam workers in Chad

in Central Africa.

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They date back to 2006 and also

involve prostitutes.

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The head of mission in Chad

at the time was the same man

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who resigned from Oxfam five years

later

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because of the scandal in Haiti.

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Oxfam said it was shocked

and dismayed about the latest

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revelations from Chad.

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It said it couldn't corroborate

the information but it highlighted

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on acceptable behaviour by a small

number of people.

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The International Development

Secretary, Penny Mordaunt,

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has now sent a strong warning

to all UK charities receiving public

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money that those funds will be

withdrawn unless they can prove

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they are cooperating fully

with the authorities

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on safeguarding issues.

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She called the behaviour by some

Oxfam workers in Haiti horrific

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and said it was just one example

of a wider issue on

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which her department

was already taking action.

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Oxfam says that after Haiti it set

up a dedicated safeguarding team

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to deal with such issues.

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Andy Moore, BBC News.

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And you can see an interview

with the International

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Development Secretary Penny Mordaunt

later in this programme.

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More than a third of child deaths

and serious injuries caused

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by neglect in England are linked

to parents who have a problem

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with alcohol, according

to a new parliamentary report.

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The study, which was

commissioned by a group

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of MPs, also found that nearly

all councils in England have cut

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funding to alcohol support services.

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The Department of Health said

it was working to see what support

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it could offer to families.

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Theresa May will deliver a major

speech within the next three weeks

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outlining the future

relationship Britain wants to have

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with the EU after Brexit.

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The Prime Minister will outline

what the government

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is seeking in relation to security,

trade and workers' rights.

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Other senior ministers are also due

to make speeches on Brexit,

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including the Foreign Secretary,

Boris johnson, on Wednesday.

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-- Boris Johnson.

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And Boris Johnson has

met the Myanmar leader

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Aung San Suu Kyi for talks,

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a day after saying Rohingya refugees

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should be allowed a safe

and dignified return.

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Mr Johnson shook hands

with Aung San Suu Kyi

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in the capital Nay Pyi Taw.

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Nearly 700,000 Rohingya Muslims

have crossed the border

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into neighbouring Bangladesh,

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after a crackdown by

the Burmese military.

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That's all from me.

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The next news on BBC

One is at 12.15.

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Back to you, Andrew.

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Many thanks.

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Now to the papers.

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The big story is Oxfam and the sex

workers, broken by The Times,

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successfully followed up by the

Sunday Times in a major way today,

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Mail on Sunday, same sort of story

about Jo Cox's former husband. The

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Observer, again, Oxfam faces fresh

claims overstaffed paying for sex,

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major story about private water

pay-out, Hubbard scandal, says

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Labour, which will renationalise the

water industry if it comes back to

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power. Sunday Telegraph, from the

other side of the Brexit debate,

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Michel Barnier's aggression, very

aggressive in this week, in many

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views, risking a walk out with a

beginning of the fracturing of

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opinion on the European side of

negotiations, you do not often hear

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about that. Gung ho from the Sunday

express. Lots to talk about. We will

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start with the Sunday Times front

page.

This is an absolutely

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disgraceful and shocking story, and

it now comes to light that up to 120

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workers for Britain's leading

charities have been accused of

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sexual abuse, Priti Patel, former

Defence Secretary, has said that she

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fears there has been a culture of

predatory paedophilia going on in

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the aid sector.

She says public

money should stop.

Tommy that is a

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stretch too far, we should not

weaponise this to make a big

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argument about whatever the rights

or wrongs are. -- to me that is a

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stretch too far. When

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-- when charities go into an area,

when there has been war, famine,

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disaster, people are vulnerable and

the idea that people are exploiting

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vulnerable people for sex is

absolutely disgraceful.

Not

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absolutely disgraceful.

Not just

Haiti, there are other examples, in

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Chad, and not just Oxfam, it is also

Save the Children.

The charity

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sector should hold themselves to a

higher standard, and no sector, it

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is not good for the charity sector

to say, we did not talk about it

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because we were worried it might

affect donations, whether you are

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the Catholic Church, politics,

charity, you should not be above

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scrutiny, we should investigate

these without fear or favour.

That

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is when you have a difficult

situation, Priti Patel, former

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International Development Secretary,

this is a great political excuse not

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to fund them, that is exactly it,

that is exactly why we would not...

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This happened with Jimmy Savile at

the BBC and the Roman Catholic

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Church, again and again, the idea of

protecting the reputation of the

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organisation that overall does good,

in some of these scenarios, that

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that is more important than a child

prostitute in Haiti not being

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exploited and we have to get to

grips with this. If you are a

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predatory paedophile, working for a

charity would be a really sensible

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decision.

When you have a big story

like this, everyone goes in

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different directions searching for

different aspects of sex problems,

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in the charity sector, front page of

the Mail on Sunday.

This is sad.

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Allegations against Brendan Cox, the

widower of Jo Cox, he denies the

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allegations, we do have to think, I

think the media often time pick and

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choose who they will expose in their

idea, allegations of true. And for

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political value and news value and

we really need to being looked at.

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-- allegations whether true or

false. These are politicised things,

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and we need to be very careful about

people's anonymity and I think that

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if you are going to be naming one

person as opposed to another person

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and picking and choosing. Make very

clear why you are doing it.

You must

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tread hugely carefully with these

things, but sometimes, revealing the

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name of somebody brings forward

other victims.

Other people.

There

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is a very fine line.

But we have

seen instances where people have

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taken their lives, people having

careers ruined, MPs who do not know

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what the charges are against them.

Also remember the thousands of

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people that never get justice and

never have their voice heard.

We

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could talk all morning about this

and it would be interesting but we

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must move on. Michel Barnier, very

interesting.

It is, the Sunday

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Telegraph has leaned hard into

Michel Barnier and they say that he

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has been overreaching in terms of

language.

This is the punishment

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clause, if we do not agree to his

deal on the transition.

And there is

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a lot of briefing and counter

briefing, and what they are saying

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is, diplomats, from a number of

countries, are questioning his

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stats. You would expect me to say

this, I am on the other side from

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Julia, but this is what the cut and

thrust of negotiations are like, you

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cannot have a Gwyneth Paltrow

conscious uncoupling(!) it is a

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dirty business

LAUGHTER

But do you accept that we pore over

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every split, every problem on the

British government side, every

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inconsistency but on the other side,

major nations disagree with each

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other about the terms of Brexit and

dress between the national capitals

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on one hand and Michel Barnier's

team on the other and we do not very

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often report this.

The BBC does not

often report its! There is a major

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issue, believing that everybody at

the EU speaks as though through the

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Word of God, there is a major issue,

we have got an organisation in the

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EU which is happily doing economic

damage to its own member states...

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We are potentially doing economic

damage to ourselves.

Keep watching

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next week.

You know that I always

watch the show. This is a spread by

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Tim Shipman in the Sunday Times.

Besieged Theresa May pressed to put

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Brexit meet on the cabinet table.

What is happening, as we see, speech

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after speech. -- meat. Newspaper

column of the newspaper column,

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Remainers and Brexiteers in the

cabinet, and outside, they are

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constantly trying to get the Prime

Minister's ear, it is almost like

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Donald Trump, never has spoken with

her last gets the official policy.

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The general view, we want some

signal from Theresa May about what

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she wants to do.

She has...!

You

does not know what she wants, that

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is not true.

There has been signals,

then she goes back on them.

Excuse

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me, very brief word, I'm really

sorry, but, certainly, according to

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the Sunday express, we are about to

hear what she thinks, there will be

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a statement coming shortly, and then

a series of expect speeches by

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cabinet ministers laying out what

they want for these negotiations,

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interestingly, Philip Hammond is not

among them.

She has had two meetings

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this week with her in a war cabinet

and never has there been a better

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title for a working group, the

problem is, they are still

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fundamentally split over what kind

of Brexit they want. Whether they

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want to have a diverging Brexit,

whether they want something much

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more aligned. They have still not

come to...

We are wasting time on

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this. Well...

Speech from Hammond,

knee gave a speech in Davos but the

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less we hear from him, the better,

also for his own career! -- he gave

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a speech in Davos.

At the end of

this programme, we have Spitfires

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playing, they have a justice for

Grenfell sign on their speaker, but

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this is a different kind of tower

block.

Horrific tragedy is and is of

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Grenfell, need to be learned, but we

are failing to learn them in the

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design of these residential towers,

huge building being done, the worry

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is, it is supposed to be built with

only a single staircase providing an

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escape from some of the highest

floors. A spokesman for the safety

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network says that it is

extraordinary that we are in this

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situation, very tall buildings with

one fire escape. The truth is, we

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are building up in London, and...

The beautiful photograph behind you,

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London is full of fast towers, some

of them have only a single staircase

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to get out, that is terrifying. --

vast towers.

People believe this is

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an attack on the poor, but rich or

poor, this is not about poor, not

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about just Grenfell Tower, it is

across all buildings. A lot of talk

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recently about pupils cheating, the

advent of the mobile phone, maybe

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you heard it, I did not have it in

my day. You had to write on your

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hand! Thousands of teachers caught

cheating, this says a lot about how

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we view exams, it used to be you

would have an idea of how someone

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good someone was as a standard but

now it is a route to something else

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and everyone must get top grades, we

no longer see them as a factual

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representation of ability so it is

OK to cheat.

Very different mindset.

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A lot of people get super coached

for their exams.

Down to one final

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story. You can choose between ice

hockey and...

I think we are going

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to do ice hockey, the Winter

Olympics going on, but nobody really

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cares because it is all about North

Korea and South Korea.

Really

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interesting, North Korea making as

nice as North Korea ever makes!

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Their diplomacy, there... They have

made all the attention onto them.

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Kim

0:15:070:15:12

Kim Jong -- Kim Jong-un has sent his

little sister, I like to call her

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Lil Kim(!) and I would love it if

she defected, if she stayed in South

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Korea!

We all think it is a little

bit of a joke but at the end, North

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Korea, murderous state, nasty

dictator, outplaying the diplomacy

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of South Korea, China, Japan and

America!

Remember, this could be an

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important first step, the only way

to calm down the temperature in

0:15:340:15:38

North Korea, diplomacy with South

Korea, so hopefully, this could be a

0:15:380:15:41

beginning of a thawing in relations.

Started with the ice hockey.

We had

0:15:410:15:48

ping-pong diplomacy in the 1970s.

0:15:480:15:53

Now, if they were

going to make a soap

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opera about UKIP leaders,

they'd have to show it

0:15:550:15:57

after the watershed.

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In real life, in the latest episode,

Henry Bolton has left his wife

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and two small children over

Christmas for a young

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model named Jo Marney,

who sent a stream of offensive text

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messages saying the most

racist things possible

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about Meghan Markle,

shortly to marry Prince Harry.

0:16:080:16:10

Unimpressed, his party are holding

a special meeting this week

0:16:100:16:12

where Mr Bolton is going to have

to plead for his job,

0:16:120:16:15

and convince them his relationship

with Ms Marney is over.

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He's with me now.

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Are you still in love with her?

There are strong affections, yes.

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Your party would like to hear that

the relationship is over but you

0:16:280:16:33

can't say that.

That isn't true.

There was a vote of no-confidence.

0:16:330:16:37

There was a range of reasons. The

general consensus was, I mean, that

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there was a problem with my judgment

around that whole episode. But the

0:16:410:16:47

point is that actually we are off

and we have been for a long time.

0:16:470:16:51

Off the field in terms of the debate

on the European Union. What we

0:16:510:16:55

should be doing is shaping the

future of this country's

0:16:550:16:58

independence. That is what we should

be focusing on. Not focusing on

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private messages that had nothing to

do with me and I had no means of

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knowing about them.

Very extreme

messages. You are still in touch.

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Absolutely. This is a live

relationship.

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That isn't the point. I'm the leader

of the political party that brought

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around the referendum, that was

partly instrumental in bringing

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about the result. We have a

responsibility to the British people

0:17:260:17:30

to project politics into the debate

to shape the future of this country.

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That's what I'm 110% focused on.

I'm

asking you this because your party

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are concerned. You said the

relationship was on hold. It's no

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longer on hold, is it?

If you'll

excuse me, what the party is

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concerned about is unifying and

projecting its politics. For very

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long time now, way beyond when I

came leader, all of the members have

0:17:510:17:56

known that the organisation of the

party needed an overhaul. That's

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been going on for the best part of a

year. From way before I was elected

0:18:050:18:09

leader. It's those things that need

to be turned around. The priority

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for me has been to organise the

party and that doesn't happen

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overnight.

You say the party are not

interested in Vista. This is what

0:18:170:18:21

Ben Walker, one your contenders

said, if it's true that they are

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still an item and I have no reason

to doubt they are, it's another kick

0:18:260:18:31

in the teeth to hard-working

grassroots members of Ukip. The fact

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he continues to associate with this

woman and her abhorrent views

0:18:350:18:39

demonstrate a disastrous lack of

judgment and complete disregard for

0:18:390:18:43

the party's reputation, which he has

managed to single-handedly

0:18:430:18:47

destroyed. His only achievement to

date.

He is on the back foot.

He

0:18:470:18:55

sounds to be on the front foot.

Absolutely not. The coming days will

0:18:550:19:00

prove that. He's been subversive and

disruptive in his activities towards

0:19:000:19:04

the party. Along with other people.

One of the purposes, and I was fully

0:19:040:19:10

transparent with this before I was

elected leader, before the campaign,

0:19:100:19:17

the primary task has got to be

reuniting the party. To do away with

0:19:170:19:22

the factorisation which has risen up

over a long period of time.

It'll be

0:19:220:19:25

difficult for you to do that.

Incredibly. The choice now facing

0:19:250:19:30

the membership is either continue

with the agenda of reform, but that

0:19:300:19:39

decision will be made on the 17th.

I

will not read up the tweets of your

0:19:390:19:44

girlfriend because they are so

offensive. They include things like

0:19:440:19:48

Meghan Markle's seed will taint our

Royal family. You have described --

0:19:480:19:55

she has also described Muslims as

the cancer of this earth. You said

0:19:550:19:58

there was some context to them which

will be revealed in time. What

0:19:580:20:04

context could there possibly be?

They were doctored.

But the source

0:20:040:20:12

of the tweets was power.

The person

you make them public, I mean, he

0:20:120:20:18

doctored them. It's the person who

makes these things public. These

0:20:180:20:25

were taken out of context.

You are

saying they are false, they were

0:20:250:20:30

doctored?

The source of one of those

text messages, or a couple of them,

0:20:300:20:36

and they were not texts by the way,

they were private Facebook messages.

0:20:360:20:40

And they were doctored by him. In

the days to come there will be more

0:20:400:20:46

evidence presented as to how they

were obtained. That source has been

0:20:460:20:54

misled by people within the party.

So there are issues within the

0:20:540:20:57

party. The first thing is to sort

this party up to present politics.

0:20:570:21:01

This is part of it. This is a

problem that's been going on for

0:21:010:21:04

many months. Way before I was

leader.

They are livid with you. Not

0:21:040:21:09

just this, but the fact you left

your wife and children in those

0:21:090:21:13

circumstances. At that meeting they

will hang you buy the heels, let's

0:21:130:21:16

be honest.

Absolutely not. I'm

getting lots of support from around

0:21:160:21:21

the country. The membership know

what has been going on within the

0:21:210:21:24

party for a long time. They know I'm

not responsible for that. They know

0:21:240:21:28

the factionalised nation needs to be

dealt with in order for the party to

0:21:280:21:33

be effective. -- functionalisation

needs to be dealt with.

It's over,

0:21:330:21:44

isn't it?

I don't believe that. The

decision will be made on the 17th.

0:21:440:21:49

If the party decides to go down the

route of another leadership contest

0:21:490:21:53

that will take five months to

complete, then the new leader has to

0:21:530:21:59

get themselves...

Then over?

By then

the party will have lost the

0:21:590:22:03

opportunity to shape the future of

this country post Brexit.

You are

0:22:030:22:08

saying it is me or just finished?

It

is reform or remain as we are now.

0:22:080:22:16

As we are now, as Ukip, it isn't

good enough. -- for Ukip, it isn't

0:22:160:22:23

good enough.

0:22:230:22:25

And so to the weather.

0:22:250:22:26

It's our first run out

with the new weather map!

0:22:260:22:28

Without going into the details,

basically, Scotland is back with us.

0:22:280:22:31

Hello Scotland!

0:22:310:22:31

Hello Scotland!

0:22:310:22:32

Over to Nick Miller

in the weather studio.

0:22:320:22:35

Scotland is in proportion with the

rest of the UK. The land is green

0:22:350:22:39

again and the weather is fitting in

with the season. Some sunshine, some

0:22:390:22:45

snow showers around today. They are

most frequent into western Scotland,

0:22:450:22:49

Northern Ireland, running into

north-west England, the Pennines,

0:22:490:22:53

but some will drift further south

and east across the UK over the

0:22:530:22:56

course of the day. Many southern and

eastern part of the UK will see

0:22:560:22:59

fewer showers compared with

elsewhere and some will stay dry. A

0:22:590:23:03

more detailed look at 3pm. These are

the specs of white where we are

0:23:030:23:08

expecting snow showers. Accumulating

in the hills, especially for western

0:23:080:23:13

Scotland and Northern Ireland,

several centimetres. You can see the

0:23:130:23:17

green gaps where things are clearing

up and we are seeing sunshine

0:23:170:23:21

occasionally, too. We are all colder

compared with yesterday. Ten bridges

0:23:210:23:26

between three to seven Celsius.

Still in brisk north westerly winds.

0:23:260:23:31

-- temperatures between three to

seven Celsius. Quieter tomorrow.

0:23:310:23:36

Gayle 's late in the West ahead of

this system moving in. Monday night

0:23:360:23:41

into Tuesday morning with rain,

sleet, and significant snow. --

0:23:410:23:48

Gales late in the West ahead of the

system moving in.

0:23:480:23:52

When will wind to end?

0:23:520:23:53

-- when will win to end?

0:23:580:23:59

Now, last week Anna

Soubry, the former

0:24:010:24:02

Tory Minister, said that

if the Brexiteers took control

0:24:020:24:05

of her party she might have to leave

it and form some kind

0:24:050:24:08

of "new alliance".

0:24:080:24:09

Pretty extraordinary.

0:24:090:24:10

Is this practical politics?

0:24:100:24:11

Is this a real threat

to Theresa May?

0:24:110:24:13

To try to find out I'm joined

by Anna Soubry and the kind

0:24:130:24:16

of person she'd like to form

an alliance with -

0:24:160:24:18

the Labour MP Chuka Umunna.

0:24:180:24:19

You are friendly on the sofa. An

awful lot of

0:24:190:24:21

awful lot of people, seven plus

million who voted for Brexit, will

0:24:210:24:24

say there you go they've not accept

the referendum result, even now

0:24:240:24:28

say there you go they've not accept

the referendum result, even now they

0:24:280:24:28

are trying to frustrate it. This is

an unholy parliamentarian plot.

I

0:24:280:24:34

say I'm interested in making sure we

get the best deal we possibly can.

0:24:340:24:38

That we get a Brexit that absolutely

put our economy at the front...

You

0:24:380:24:45

think Brexit will happen?

The most

important thing is that we continue

0:24:450:24:50

to put our country's interests first

and foremost. We both voted for

0:24:500:24:57

Article 50 to be triggered. People

often forget that. The other thing I

0:24:570:25:02

would say...

I was asking you, do

you think Brexit will definitely

0:25:020:25:05

happen?

I genuinely don't know what

is going to happen.

It might be

0:25:050:25:11

stopped?

I'll tell you who might

stop it, that's the people of this

0:25:110:25:15

country. We won't. It's the people.

We gave the people they referendum.

0:25:150:25:20

They voted for it.

Exactly.

There is

no majority in the House of Commons

0:25:200:25:27

for us simply to jump off a cliff.

Nobody voted to be poorer. You are

0:25:270:25:32

correct to refer to that referendum.

Nobody voted for us to jump off a

0:25:320:25:38

cliff. Increasingly what you are

seeing is people seeking to put

0:25:380:25:41

ideology for the national interest

-- before the national interest. A

0:25:410:25:44

good example of that is the Good

Friday Agreement. If we come out of

0:25:440:25:48

the customs union... We want all

sides to be clear that he would

0:25:480:25:52

potentially threaten the Good Friday

settlement. Will we really put that

0:25:520:25:55

at risk for ideology? However things

pan out, it has to be the national

0:25:550:26:02

interest, that's what you have

people working cross party to make

0:26:020:26:05

sure that's the case.

Let's walk you

through the democracy side of this.

0:26:050:26:08

Terry hole in

0:26:080:26:13

-- you would be tearing a hole in

democracy if Brexit was stopped. And

0:26:130:26:17

if it was stopped there would have

to be a second referendum. Jeremy

0:26:170:26:21

Corbyn will not call one. We know

Theresa May won't call one for

0:26:210:26:25

obvious reasons, as well. Therefore,

unless there was a majority in the

0:26:250:26:30

House of Commons for something the

party leaderships are against, it

0:26:300:26:32

won't happen. That isn't practical

politics, is it?

Hang on... This

0:26:320:26:39

whole thing, it'll be the people who

decided in the end. You are right.

0:26:390:26:43

You cannot fight for the will of the

people if they get the final say.

0:26:430:26:47

But Parliament is not a bystander.

Parliament gets to determine what

0:26:470:26:51

happens. My personal view was that I

would like to see the people get the

0:26:510:26:55

final say with the options to opt

in.

And your joint determination is

0:26:550:27:01

that Parliament will have a clear,

decisive vote on whatever terms

0:27:010:27:04

Theresa May reveals to the country

in due course?

And all options must

0:27:040:27:09

be available to Parliament, as well.

The real thing is this, if this

0:27:090:27:13

government does not get this right

it will end up in a position whereby

0:27:130:27:17

the majority of members of

Parliament putting their

0:27:170:27:21

constituents at first will find

themselves unable to vote for a

0:27:210:27:23

withdrawal agreement.

Then it really

is the cliff edge.

No, no, their

0:27:230:27:29

options.

Yes, that's the point.

--

no, no, there are options.

If

0:27:290:27:39

Theresa May vote it down...

We

secured a meaningful vote before

0:27:390:27:44

Christmas. Dominic grieve tabled the

amendment. There was a majority in

0:27:440:27:50

parliament for it. What it ensures

is that Parliament doesn't just give

0:27:500:27:54

government a blank cheque, but we

get to have a voice and voice all of

0:27:540:28:01

the different scenarios.

We saw lots

of desperate people. One of the big

0:28:010:28:05

messages was that if we don't take a

withdrawal agreement there are other

0:28:050:28:10

options. That isn't just staining in

the European Union, that's also the

0:28:100:28:13

Norwegian model. -- staying in. The

big mistake is the debate in

0:28:130:28:21

government is about Canada, and

Canada plus plus plus.

Norway has

0:28:210:28:26

gone?

Yes, which is a big mistake.

The big choices between Norway and

0:28:260:28:31

Canada and we've made a mistake with

these red lines.

You cannot have

0:28:310:28:34

your cake and eat it, no matter how

many times you say it.

Exactly.

0:28:340:28:40

Theresa May says she will come out

with her preferred option for how we

0:28:400:28:43

leave the EU. What could she say

that would calm both of you down?

0:28:430:28:49

From my point of view I want to see

absolutely back in...

We are still

0:28:490:28:57

inside a free-trade area?

Exactly.

We are still members of the EEA. The

0:28:570:29:05

Norwegians have control of their

agricultural and fishing policies. I

0:29:050:29:10

still want us to be in the customs

union.

That will never happen.

Why?

0:29:100:29:16

It would be bad for the economy and

it undermines the peace process.

It

0:29:160:29:21

is difficult to see how she could

reduce a deal you both will back.

0:29:210:29:26

I'll ask you the same sort of

question about Jeremy Corbyn. You

0:29:260:29:29

have heard him rule out a second

referendum and a customs union. Yet

0:29:290:29:33

we hear rumours, stories and the

papers, that behind the scenes here

0:29:330:29:39

slightly more open-minded. Are you

making any progress with the lead --

0:29:390:29:45

with the Labour leadership?

He moved

us into a position where we would

0:29:450:29:48

stay in the customs union before

transition. But I cannot conceive of

0:29:480:29:53

circumstances where Labour MPs are

marshalled to go through the lobby,

0:29:530:29:57

and to vote as voting against Dane

in the customs union with the likes

0:29:570:30:02

of Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson,

and Michael Gove. -- against staying

0:30:020:30:08

in the customs union. I cannot see

them doing that, which would damage

0:30:080:30:11

the interests of our constituents.

One important last question. Do you

0:30:110:30:17

really believe we have the majority

in the House of Commons on the Tory

0:30:170:30:22

side and Labour side coming together

to complete the kind of Brexit the

0:30:220:30:27

country once?

If she's not careful,

yes. There is a real shift among

0:30:270:30:33

what I call reluctant Remainers,

Leaver lites is what I call them.

0:30:330:30:42

This is important, I wish that Chuka

would come into the lobby with me

0:30:420:30:45

but he does not, last week there was

a very good police settlement, you

0:30:450:30:50

voted against it.

Anna does not vote

with me on the NHS but...

Not just

0:30:500:30:56

physically now, you are closer to

each other politically... You are

0:30:560:31:00

closer to each other politically

than you are on... On Brexit, yes.

0:31:000:31:05

You are closer to John McDonnell and

you are closer to Jacob Rees-Mogg --

0:31:050:31:13

you are closer to her than John

McDonnell, and you are closer to him

0:31:130:31:16

than Jacob Rees-Mogg.

This is bigger

than party politics, we will not be

0:31:160:31:21

forgiven by future generations if we

play party politics.

Is this a new

0:31:210:31:26

alliance?

Chuka says this is the

issue upon which we are united, that

0:31:260:31:31

is the most important thing, putting

country and constituents first and

0:31:310:31:35

that is what everyone else has to

do, not just MPs but also British

0:31:350:31:40

businesses have got to speak up for

the economic Brexit everyone is

0:31:400:31:44

crying out for.

Time is up, you

heard it here first(!)

0:31:440:31:49

Now, listening to all

of that, a loyal member

0:31:490:31:51

of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet,

Labour's Communities

0:31:510:31:56

spokesman

Andrew Gwynne.

0:31:560:31:59

in the past you have said that

Brexit could tear apart the Labour

0:31:590:32:03

Party. Is it coming about?

No, we

have a clear here and position, we

0:32:030:32:09

have said that there needs to be a

transitional period, and that

0:32:090:32:12

transitional period access that we

will be part of the single market.

0:32:120:32:15

-- know we have a coherent position.

Only for a couple of years, does not

0:32:150:32:21

solve it.

It is acting as a bridge

to the new relationship with the

0:32:210:32:25

European Union, we are leaving the

European Union, we have a referendum

0:32:250:32:28

on this, and how we get to the final

destination and what the final

0:32:280:32:33

destination looks like should not be

rushed to a March 2019 deadline,

0:32:330:32:38

everyone is agreed that the

government will struggle to get a

0:32:380:32:42

bespoke deal by March 2019, that is

why we need a proper transitional

0:32:420:32:48

period, time-limited, so that we can

get the deal we want to see.

0:32:480:32:53

Michel Barnier has been very clear

that to get the transition we must

0:32:530:32:57

listen to all of their terms.

Given

the transition period, where we are

0:32:570:33:01

now, are you concerned it will not

happen?

Where the government is

0:33:010:33:04

should send worrying signals to the

country at large. They have brought

0:33:040:33:12

out a number of measures that we

would like to see in the

0:33:120:33:15

transitional period, we have said we

will access the roles and

0:33:150:33:18

regulations of the single market, we

will be part of the single market

0:33:180:33:22

and Customs union for the

transitional period, that is

0:33:220:33:25

important, so we can get to a

position that we need to be when we

0:33:250:33:30

are outside the European Union.

Let's talk about the position you

0:33:300:33:33

need to get to, Owen Smith, Shadow

Cabinet colleague, has been clear,

0:33:330:33:37

hard border, talking about Northern

Ireland, must be avoided, and it is

0:33:370:33:42

only membership of the single market

and Customs union that can guarantee

0:33:420:33:46

the open border so important to the

Good Friday Agreement, that is a

0:33:460:33:50

breach of party discipline and party

policy.

What he is saying is that

0:33:500:33:56

one way of avoiding the hard border

is to ensure the current

0:33:560:34:00

arrangements continue between the UK

and the European Union, of course,

0:34:000:34:06

that would make Britain...

He says

it is the only way, you have to stay

0:34:060:34:10

in those things or else, that is way

way way...

That would make Britain a

0:34:100:34:15

rule taker and not a rule maker, and

I think what we have got to do is

0:34:150:34:22

make sure there is a Brexit deal

that secures the benefits of the

0:34:220:34:27

single market, that mirrors the

rules and conditions... What we do

0:34:270:34:36

not want to do, we do not want to

end up with workers conditions,

0:34:360:34:42

environmental protection is being

less in the United Kingdom than

0:34:420:34:44

elsewhere in Europe but we need to

make the roles ourselves.

This is a

0:34:440:34:49

crucial question facing the country,

the Labour Party believes in giving

0:34:490:34:52

your own members a proper say, eight

policy commissions now, designed to

0:34:520:34:58

allow ordinary Labour Party members

and even voters to have their say in

0:34:580:35:02

shaping the policy, how many of the

eight commissions deal with Brexit?

0:35:020:35:05

All eight of them.

None.

I am of the

community 's commission, you will

0:35:050:35:12

find that on each of those

commissions, we have a dedicated

0:35:120:35:15

member that is looking at the impact

of Brexit in each policy area.

A lot

0:35:150:35:21

of your own MPs think you have

sliced it up so find there is no

0:35:210:35:26

forum for debate.

You cannot go from

saying there is none, to now saying

0:35:260:35:32

it is sliced up finally, there are

eight policy commissions, dealing

0:35:320:35:35

with a whole range of policies, all

of whom...

In which case, why have

0:35:350:35:40

30 of your colleagues written to the

NEC, asking for a proper debate on

0:35:400:35:45

Brexit because you think it has been

pushed to one side, a really

0:35:450:35:50

important issue, treated like a

marginal one, in the words of Heidi

0:35:500:35:53

Alexander.

I do not think it is

being treated marginal, Brexit is

0:35:530:35:57

always the number one subject

wherever we go.

That may be

0:35:570:36:01

absolutely clear, when it comes to

not being a member of the customs

0:36:010:36:05

union and not being a member of the

single market, that is absolutely

0:36:050:36:09

clearly Labour Party policy and will

not change?

The Labour Party policy,

0:36:090:36:13

Keir Starmer has made it very clear,

we do not take anything off the

0:36:130:36:17

table, that is the mistake...

That

is the mistake... You yourself have

0:36:170:36:21

said you can change policy of public

opinion changes.

That is the mistake

0:36:210:36:25

the current government have made,

rolled out everything, we have said

0:36:250:36:29

that we want to have the benefits of

the single market, we also, Andrew,

0:36:290:36:34

want to have that tariff free custom

free trade with Europe, and that

0:36:340:36:38

means having some form of a customs

union with the European Union.

Cake

0:36:380:36:44

and cake eaten. Some would say. Your

own department, whole series of

0:36:440:36:48

really bad crises, in Conservative

councils around the country, sorry,

0:36:480:36:53

Northamptonshire, many more. Big

budget deficits, will a Labour

0:36:530:36:58

government give them the extra money

they need?

We have said we will

0:36:580:37:02

fully resourced local government, in

the manifesto for the last general

0:37:020:37:07

election, we identified £2 billion

for last year that we would have

0:37:070:37:10

invested directly in local

government services but also putting

0:37:100:37:15

money into adult social care,

children services and early years as

0:37:150:37:18

well.

INAUDIBLE

It is those things that are tipping

0:37:180:37:23

councils over the financial cliff

edge.

Very clearly, would you

0:37:230:37:26

reverse the cuts are Conservatives

have made to local authorities?

I

0:37:260:37:31

have said we will invest in adult

social care. Well, investing in

0:37:310:37:35

those services means we are putting

money in, we are helping councils

0:37:350:37:41

avoid that financial cliff edge.

A

radical government should be able to

0:37:410:37:45

say, we will reverse the cuts,

presumably you cannot say that

0:37:450:37:48

because it is too expensive.

We will

put money back in, the local

0:37:480:37:52

government Association says councils

need to billion pounds on children

0:37:520:37:56

services alone.

Let's turn to how we

raise that money.

At the budget,

0:37:560:38:01

this comes onto the point, the

Conservative government cut £5

0:38:010:38:06

billion on the bank levy, we oppose

that, we said to billion pounds of

0:38:060:38:10

that should be given to children

services this year, precisely the

0:38:100:38:14

money the local government

Association said it needs.

If

0:38:140:38:18

taxpayers want better local

services, one way or another they

0:38:180:38:21

will have to pay for that, it has

been a long time since we have had a

0:38:210:38:25

council tax evaluation, 1991 was the

last one, you have said this is an

0:38:250:38:30

absurd situation, can you tell us

today that the Labour government in

0:38:300:38:34

power will re-evaluate and have

another re-evaluation of council tax

0:38:340:38:38

bands.

Need to be more radical, we

need to look afresh at how we fund

0:38:380:38:43

local government going forward, that

is a big piece of work that we are

0:38:430:38:48

going to undertake. The problem

about this, council tax is broken,

0:38:480:38:54

not fit for purpose, 1% increase in

council tax on my own local

0:38:540:38:59

authority Thamesside in Greater

Manchester brings in just £700,000.

0:38:590:39:05

And yet social care gap this year,

£16 million. That does not fix the

0:39:050:39:10

problem.

Push council tax away into

history, and replace it with

0:39:100:39:14

something else. There has been a

suggestion that land value tax is

0:39:140:39:18

something your party is looking at.

We are looking at what we need to do

0:39:180:39:22

to fix how we finance local

government going forward, we have

0:39:220:39:25

not made up minds on what that will

be, it might be that the council

0:39:250:39:30

tax...

An extra income tax? Perhaps?

Maybe council tax can be reformed,

0:39:300:39:36

there are lots of examples of how

revenues are raised across the

0:39:360:39:41

country, we need an open-minded and

general discussion about this.

0:39:410:39:45

General question, have you

completely open mind about whether a

0:39:450:39:49

new tax to pay for local authority

would remain essentially a property

0:39:490:39:53

base tax? Or whatever it might be on

the one hand, and, some extra form

0:39:530:40:00

of income tax, as they use in the

United States?

Let's look at what

0:40:000:40:04

works and what works in this

country, I will take international

0:40:040:40:09

examples but you put some of those

policy ideas through the machine,

0:40:090:40:12

and what comes out at the other end

might not work in this country but

0:40:120:40:16

what is crucial is we properly fund

local services because local

0:40:160:40:20

government is on the brink of

collapse.

Lots of aspirations, we

0:40:200:40:24

have not got clear answers, we wait,

agog(!)

0:40:240:40:29

Now, coming up later this morning,

0:40:310:40:32

as the Prime Minister tries

to thrash out Britain's relationship

0:40:320:40:34

with the EU after Brexit,

Labour's Seema Malhotra

0:40:340:40:36

and Conservative MEP

Dan Hannan go head to head.

0:40:360:40:39

And Andy McDonald, the shadow

transport secretary on Labour's

0:40:390:40:41

plans for renationalisation.

0:40:410:40:43

That's the Sunday Politics,

with Sarah Smith, here on BBC One.

0:40:430:40:50

Well, earlier on we were

talking on about that

0:40:500:40:52

terrible Oxfam scandal,

and the extent to which we should be

0:40:520:40:55

asking questions not just of Oxfam

but of the government,

0:40:550:40:57

and the Department for International

Development in particular.

0:40:570:40:59

The Secretary of State,

Penny Mordaunt,

0:40:590:41:03

who has been in the job

since November, is with me.

0:41:030:41:08

when you came across this story,

when was it?

When I first came

0:41:080:41:13

across it, it was when the Times

came across the story.

That was the

0:41:130:41:17

first you knew of it?

My reaction,

it is a complete betrayal both of

0:41:170:41:21

the people that Oxfam were there to

help and the people who sent them

0:41:210:41:24

there to do the job, it is a

scandal.

Let's walk through aspects

0:41:240:41:28

of the scandal bit by bit. First of

all, Oxfam allowed the people

0:41:280:41:33

responsible for this appalling

behaviour to leave relatively

0:41:330:41:38

quietly, no hullabaloo, those people

who were responsible in Haiti, and

0:41:380:41:41

they were not fired, allowed to

resign.

Shocking, does not matter

0:41:410:41:46

how good the safeguarding practices

are in an organisation, if that

0:41:460:41:50

organisation does not have the moral

leadership to do the right thing,

0:41:500:41:56

and where, in particular, they have

evidence of criminal activity, to

0:41:560:41:59

pass that information to the

relevant authorities, including

0:41:590:42:03

prosecuting authorities, that is an

absolute absence of leadership.

You

0:42:030:42:07

feel that Oxfam failed in its moral

leadership.

Yes, I do.

Second phase,

0:42:070:42:17

having let these people go, they

joined other aid organisations and

0:42:170:42:22

charities and those organisations

were not told about any of this,

0:42:220:42:26

again, what is your reaction?

That

is a scandal, that is why we must

0:42:260:42:30

ensure people are reporting these

offences, when they take place. We

0:42:300:42:35

have got to give the sector the best

chance it has, at ensuring that

0:42:350:42:39

people who are, we suspect,

targeting this sector in order to

0:42:390:42:44

carry out predatory activities, that

we give them the best chance we can

0:42:440:42:50

not to allow that to happen.

When

will you meet Oxfam and have the

0:42:500:42:54

conversation face-to-face?

I'm

eating them tomorrow and affording

0:42:540:42:58

them the opportunity to tell me in

person what they did after these

0:42:580:43:01

events. And I am going to be looking

to see if they are displaying the

0:43:010:43:05

moral leadership that I think they

need to now. We are talking about an

0:43:050:43:11

historic case, it is in some

respects still live, they have

0:43:110:43:14

information they should be giving to

the authorities.

In terms of your

0:43:140:43:19

department, back when all of this

happened, 2011, what were you told

0:43:190:43:23

as a department by Oxfam?

We were

not told about the nature of these

0:43:230:43:27

events, they initially said that

they were investigating misconduct,

0:43:270:43:31

and when they concluded that report,

they did not tell us the nature of

0:43:310:43:38

these events. They did tell the

charity commission that there was

0:43:380:43:47

sexual inappropriate behaviour,

bullying and harassment of

0:43:470:43:49

employees, but they did not put that

to us.

Given that new knew there was

0:43:490:43:53

a problem, at the very least, was it

not a little in curious of your

0:43:530:43:58

department not to ask more?

Oxfam

also gave reassurances of two things

0:43:580:44:03

critical to us.

-- incurious.

It is

about was there any harm done? Was

0:44:030:44:10

there any involvement of the

beneficiaries of aid involved, any

0:44:100:44:16

impact on them? They told us

categorically, no.

That was a lie.

0:44:160:44:21

Yes, and no misappropriation of

funds they said as well. That is the

0:44:210:44:26

other thing we would have been

concerned with.

This is beginning to

0:44:260:44:30

look like a cover up, certainly

clear that they lied to you, they

0:44:300:44:35

get quite a lot of public money from

you, is there any part of you that

0:44:350:44:40

is beginning to think, we should not

be paying tax payers money to this

0:44:400:44:43

organisation?

Yes, I think that, I

am going to afford them the

0:44:430:44:48

opportunity to talk to me tomorrow

but I am clear, does not matter

0:44:480:44:51

whether you have a whistle-blowing

hotline, does not matter if you have

0:44:510:44:55

good safeguarding practices in

place, if the moral leadership at

0:44:550:44:59

the top of the organisation is not

there, then we cannot have you as a

0:44:590:45:03

partner. I would also note, there

are enormous numbers of people who

0:45:030:45:08

are doing good work and good people

working at Oxfam. They have been

0:45:080:45:12

betrayed in this as well.

Absolutely

stop cover up? -- absolutely.

0:45:120:45:21

Cover-up? I do not know what their

motivation was, I'm affording them

0:45:210:45:27

the opportunity tomorrow to talk to

me directly, they did absolutely the

0:45:270:45:31

wrong thing, they let individuals

who had undertaken criminal

0:45:310:45:36

activity, they let them go, they did

not tell prosecuting authorities,

0:45:360:45:41

they did not tell their regulator

and they did not do what they

0:45:410:45:45

should.

They will probably tell you

tomorrow they are doing good and

0:45:450:45:49

important work around the world and

were worried that if people knew

0:45:490:45:51

about this, they would stop

donating.

There is some actions I am

0:45:510:45:55

looking for them taking now.

0:45:550:46:02

If they don't hand over all of their

information from their investigation

0:46:020:46:07

into all of the relevant

authorities, then I cannot work with

0:46:070:46:12

them any more.

That is the end of

public money if they don't do what

0:46:120:46:16

you tell them. You say UK aid should

be withdrawn from this scandalous

0:46:160:46:22

organisation. You will give them one

more chance, otherwise you agree

0:46:220:46:26

with them?

I need to look at the

facts. I want to afford them the

0:46:260:46:30

opportunity to tell me their side of

the story so I have all of the

0:46:300:46:33

facts. I'm clear. The sector has to

set up -- step up in terms of

0:46:330:46:39

tackling what is an industry that

has been targeted by individuals.

By

0:46:390:46:44

paedophiles, in fact.

Yes, targeting

this because of the chaos that we

0:46:440:46:50

work in. And we have to do

everything to ensure that those

0:46:500:46:55

people are spotted and other

organisations that might be

0:46:550:46:58

potentially hiring them in the

future don't.

You talk about the

0:46:580:47:02

sector as a whole. We've been

focusing on Oxfam for many reasons.

0:47:020:47:06

They've been a noble organisation

for this work. But it isn't just

0:47:060:47:14

them, it's Christian Nade, it's Save

The Children, founded after the

0:47:140:47:19

First World War. -- its Christian

Aid. Do you worry that the aid

0:47:190:47:28

project is under threat because of

what has happened?

This is an issue.

0:47:280:47:33

We need to do more. This has been

led through the UN, through getting

0:47:330:47:40

reforms, through getting the

oversight needed. I'm writing out to

0:47:400:47:46

all of the organisations we work

with to ensure that the practices

0:47:460:47:49

and the moral leadership is there.

Are you going to call in the

0:47:490:47:58

children, Christian Aid, and other

organisations that have been named?

0:47:580:48:02

-- are you going to call in Save the

Children.

I also think we need to

0:48:020:48:09

get the international community to

step up. I'll be making a speech

0:48:090:48:12

later this week at an international

conference looking at child

0:48:120:48:15

protection and raising these issues.

You came into politics, used to work

0:48:150:48:21

in orphanages, lots of people give

money to these organisations, are

0:48:210:48:26

they going to be thinking maybe I

won't after all of this? What you

0:48:260:48:31

say to them? Aid does an awful lot

of good around the world. It's also

0:48:310:48:35

good for the UK.

It makes us more

prosperous and more secure. We

0:48:350:48:40

contribute towards global health

security and many other aspects. Aid

0:48:400:48:43

is good. But if we believe that then

we must reassure donors, whether

0:48:430:48:49

they are people donating

voluntarily, or whether it is

0:48:490:48:52

governments and the international

community, we must demonstrate that

0:48:520:48:54

money isn't just being spent well,

but could not be spent better.

Can

0:48:540:48:59

ask more about this unhappy episode.

Can we be clear that in the future

0:48:590:49:04

the use of prostitutes by any staff

of

0:49:040:49:13

of NGOs will mean that their company

stops getting aid?

Many of the

0:49:130:49:18

organisations we work with work with

local staff in very complex

0:49:180:49:22

situations. For me it is about what

the organisation does to prevent

0:49:220:49:27

that from happening...

So it has

better internal...

And that it has a

0:49:270:49:35

report given to it. What is

important about Oxfam is that when

0:49:350:49:38

it was reported to them they failed

to do the right thing. That is what

0:49:380:49:42

we must focus on. That is what will

ultimately stop predatory

0:49:420:49:46

individuals being able to take

advantage of vulnerable people.

You

0:49:460:49:51

had Jacob Rees Mogg going up to

number ten with a big petition from

0:49:510:49:55

Express readers against the aid

going to them. Doesn't your job

0:49:550:50:06

harder -- does it make your job

harder?

We need to make the case for

0:50:060:50:10

aid better. We need a higher

spending bar. It cannot just be

0:50:100:50:13

spent well. We must demonstrate to

people that it could not be spent

0:50:130:50:16

better in the national interest,

whether that be the NHS or social

0:50:160:50:21

care. That's what we must focus on.

Ultimately aid alleviates pressure

0:50:210:50:27

on the NHS. Alleviates pressure on

our Armed Forces. It's a sensible

0:50:270:50:30

thing to do.

Of course.

But we

cannot do it badly. The 0.7 is only

0:50:300:50:38

a help if we spend it well and that

is what we want to demonstrate.

Are

0:50:380:50:43

you sure that British citizens were

not involved in any of these cases,

0:50:430:50:47

and that no British citizens were

having sects with underage people?

0:50:470:50:50

Because that would be a criminal

offence in this country. -- having

0:50:500:50:55

sex with underage people.

It would

be. We are part of an international

0:50:550:51:00

agreement. That means no matter

where you are committing an offence,

0:51:000:51:04

you British citizen, it is an

offence here. This is not about the

0:51:040:51:10

law being strengthened. This is

about organisations reporting to

0:51:100:51:12

prosecution organisations...

I was

wondering what information you have

0:51:120:51:18

on this.

This is an emerging

picture. More allegations are coming

0:51:180:51:23

out from Oxfam and other

organisations. I've written out to

0:51:230:51:27

every organisation we work with

asking them to place on a record all

0:51:270:51:29

of the events, historic or current,

they are aware of and any other

0:51:290:51:36

safeguarding issues they are aware

of. And all of them will be followed

0:51:360:51:39

up.

Let's move on. Six major

speeches by the Prime Minister and

0:51:390:51:45

an array of other Cabinet ministers

on Brexit coming over the next

0:51:450:51:48

couple of weeks. What will we learn

from these?

What the public want is

0:51:480:51:54

the vision. They want meat on the

bones. That is what they are going

0:51:540:51:57

to get. That will involve, at the

end of the process, the Prime

0:51:570:52:03

Minister setting out what that new

partnership will look like. But it

0:52:030:52:07

will also give detail on our trading

ambitions relationship, on what it

0:52:070:52:12

means for devolution, and many other

aspects.

If you are a major company

0:52:120:52:16

watching very worriedly at this

process, we had the Japanese

0:52:160:52:20

ambassador talking about Japanese

companies pulling out if they don't

0:52:200:52:23

get the kind of tariff free aspects

they want, they will get answers

0:52:230:52:28

within the next couple of weeks.

They will get some.

We want

0:52:280:52:32

negotiations.

That's the key

difference. This is a negotiation.

0:52:320:52:38

At least they will know our

position.

Exactly. That is what

0:52:380:52:43

business is looking for. We have got

to give business and other

0:52:430:52:48

organisations, as well, a flavour of

what they need to plan for. And

0:52:480:52:52

certainty about what we are looking

for.

And perhaps what they are most

0:52:520:52:56

concerned about is the transition

period. Is it a given it will

0:52:560:53:01

happen?

My personal view is I do

because it's in our interest and it

0:53:010:53:05

is in the EU's interest. Common

sense will prevail.

Michel Barnier

0:53:050:53:10

said it isn't a given and his -- and

he has laid down some clear

0:53:100:53:17

instructions. He says if you don't I

have a series of punishment I can

0:53:170:53:21

impose on you and you can say

nothing about them. Do you think he

0:53:210:53:25

is being discourteous to this

country, at the very least?

I would

0:53:250:53:30

agree with what David Davis has said

on that matter. But what I would say

0:53:300:53:33

to the public is that actually the

other nations involved in this are

0:53:330:53:38

very pragmatic and have not been

impressed with some of the language

0:53:380:53:41

the commission has used. Ultimately

this is about what is good for us

0:53:410:53:47

and good for the remainder of the

EU.

In terms of the rights of EU

0:53:470:53:52

citizens coming here during the

transition period, the Prime

0:53:520:53:56

Minister has been clear that it

changes, we've left the EU, it's a

0:53:560:54:01

different situation, is that over

time for this country?

It is what we

0:54:010:54:04

are setting out in our position. All

of this is in negotiation.

Up until

0:54:040:54:11

now, we fold on everything, we say

this is a red light, then they say

0:54:110:54:15

no, then we fold, and things move

on.

-- red line. We will be setting

0:54:150:54:22

out our detail on these issues in

the coming months. That is something

0:54:220:54:25

we are looking for. Ultimately it

will be the negotiation, the phrase

0:54:250:54:33

that is strutted out, nothing is

decided until everything is decided.

0:54:330:54:37

These things make sense. We are

right to ask for them.

I don't know

0:54:370:54:40

if you had a chance to hear an Anne

Soubry and Chuka Umunna early on, do

0:54:400:54:49

you think this is driving a party to

breaking point?

I don't think so.

0:54:490:54:54

The Parliamentary party and the

Cabinet are behind the Prime

0:54:540:54:56

Minister. We are trying to get the

best deal possible for the UK. I

0:54:560:55:02

have great respect for Anne Soubry

and Chuka Umunna. But we had a

0:55:020:55:09

referendum. We are moving. Which

ever way people voted we all have an

0:55:090:55:13

interest in getting the best deal

possible. That is what we are doing.

0:55:130:55:16

The last time we were talking,

during the referendum campaign, you

0:55:160:55:20

were full of confidence and optimism

about this. You and people like you

0:55:200:55:25

never told us how hard it was going

to be.

Nobody thought it was going

0:55:250:55:29

to be a walk in the park. But

actually I think once you get past

0:55:290:55:35

the Westminster bubble, and you look

at the practical things that need to

0:55:350:55:39

happen, what is ultimately good for

us, for our security and prosperity,

0:55:390:55:42

and what is good for the remainder

of the EU, the Democrat security and

0:55:420:55:47

prosperity, actually they are the

same...

You remain cheaper.

I am. --

0:55:470:55:53

you remain chipper.

0:55:530:55:57

Now a look at what's

coming up straight

0:55:570:55:59

after this programme.

0:55:590:56:04

We debate race. Is today's Britain

racist? There are rumours the Prime

0:56:040:56:11

Minister is considering cutting

tuition fees, we ask whether higher

0:56:110:56:14

education is fit for purpose. See

you at ten on BBC One.

0:56:140:56:18

Almost out of time for today.

0:56:180:56:20

Join us again next Sunday at nine,

when I'll be speaking

0:56:200:56:23

to Guy Verhofstadt,

the Brexit Coordinator

0:56:230:56:24

for the European Parliament and,

delayed by a week, Jeremy Irons

0:56:240:56:27

and Lesley Manville.

0:56:270:56:28

Until then, we leave you with one

of the most exciting young bands

0:56:280:56:31

around at the moment.

0:56:310:56:32

This is The Spitfires

and "Stand Down".

0:56:320:56:33

Goodbye.

0:56:330:56:36

# Spend a lifetime

ignoring the facts

0:56:520:56:57

# Young people standing with a wall

against their backs

0:56:570:56:59

# The TV says we're

on the verge of war

0:56:590:57:01

# Receipts for lost lives collect

at their front doors

0:57:010:57:06

# Still it could be much

much worse they say

0:57:060:57:09

# An education debt

that you won't pay

0:57:090:57:12

# This is the road

laid out for you

0:57:120:57:16

# I mean what else are you gonna do?

0:57:160:57:23

# Cause this is your

future you can see

0:57:280:57:32

# Even though it looks

like your past to me

0:57:320:57:35

# Stand down

0:57:350:57:36

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

0:57:360:57:38

# Stand down

0:57:380:57:40

# Get a degree but

you'll never need it

0:57:400:57:43

# Stand down

0:57:430:57:44

# Stand down, stand down

0:57:440:57:45

# Stand down, stand down

0:57:450:57:48

# You've shed enough tears

to wash away the tracks

0:57:490:57:54

# Thrown off enough

to keep you turning back

0:57:540:57:57

# You never said it could end up

this way

0:57:570:58:05

# This road they laid

out for you

0:58:110:58:13

# I mean what else are you gonna do?

0:58:130:58:15

# Cause this is your future you can

see

0:58:150:58:17

# Even though it looks

like your past to me

0:58:170:58:20

# Stand down

0:58:200:58:21

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

0:58:210:58:23

# Stand down

0:58:230:58:24

# Get a degree but you'll never need

it

0:58:240:58:26

# Stand down

0:58:260:58:27

# Stand down, stand down

0:58:270:58:28

# Stand down, stand down

0:58:280:58:36

# Stand down

0:58:400:58:43

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

0:58:430:58:46

# Stand down

0:58:460:58:47

# Get a degree but

you'll never need it

0:58:470:58:49

# Stand down

0:58:490:58:50

# Stand down, stand down

0:58:500:58:51

# Stand down, stand down #.

0:58:510:58:59

Interviews with key newsmakers and cultural figures, and a look at what is happening in the world this week.

Andrew Marr's guests include international development secretary Penny Mordaunt, shadow communities and local government secretary Andrew Gwynne, leader of the UK Independence Party Henry Bolton, Anna Soubry MP and Chuka Umunna MP.

The newspapers are reviewed by Ayesha Hazarika and Julia Hartley-Brewer, and there is music from The Spitfires.