11/02/2018 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

It's hard to imagine

a more disgraceful story.

Haiti, 2011, a hideous

natural disaster.

Aid workers, paid for by you,

employed by Oxfam,

arrive and indulge in an orgy of

prostitution with local survivors.

This is a terrible betrayal.

Oxfam, one of our great

international institutions,

is tottering, but what

of the Government?

What did ministers know?

And when?

In her first major television

interview since being appointed as

International Development Secretary,

Penny Mordaunt joins us.

We're also promised a major

explanation of the Government's

Brexit strategy very soon,

we're going to get Labour

reaction

from the Shadow Communities

Secretary, Andrew Gwynne.

And to discuss whether the tectonic

plates of Brexit are now really

shifting in Parliament,

the Tory Remainer Anna Soubry,

and her Labour friend, Chuka Umunna.

Plus, in the latest of our series

of leaders interviews,

Henry Bolton, currently

the Leader of UKIP.

His party have called an emergency

meeting for this week

and they're out for his blood.

Plus, the Mods are back.

Reinvented by The Spitfires.

Makes me feel very nostalgic!

Reviewing the news, the former

Labour adviser and stand-up comic,

Ayesha Hazarika, and the broadcaster

and enthusiastic Brexiteer

Julia Hartley-Brewer.

But first, the headlines

with Ben Thompson.

Good morning.

The International Development

Secretary Penny Mordaunt has warned

overseas aid charities

that they will lose government money

if they don't ensure vulnerable

people are properly protected.

She described the behaviour of some

of Oxfam's workers in Haiti,

who were accused of using

prostitutes after the 2010

earthquake, as "horrific".

The charity is also facing

new allegations about some

of its workers in Chad.

Andy Moore reports.

After Haiti, now new allegations

about the behaviour

of some Oxfam workers in Chad

in Central Africa.

They date back to 2006 and also

involve prostitutes.

The head of mission in Chad

at the time was the same man

who resigned from Oxfam five years

later

because of the scandal in Haiti.

Oxfam said it was shocked

and dismayed about the latest

revelations from Chad.

It said it couldn't corroborate

the information but it highlighted

on acceptable behaviour by a small

number of people.

The International Development

Secretary, Penny Mordaunt,

has now sent a strong warning

to all UK charities receiving public

money that those funds will be

withdrawn unless they can prove

they are cooperating fully

with the authorities

on safeguarding issues.

She called the behaviour by some

Oxfam workers in Haiti horrific

and said it was just one example

of a wider issue on

which her department

was already taking action.

Oxfam says that after Haiti it set

up a dedicated safeguarding team

to deal with such issues.

Andy Moore, BBC News.

And you can see an interview

with the International

Development Secretary Penny Mordaunt

later in this programme.

More than a third of child deaths

and serious injuries caused

by neglect in England are linked

to parents who have a problem

with alcohol, according

to a new parliamentary report.

The study, which was

commissioned by a group

of MPs, also found that nearly

all councils in England have cut

funding to alcohol support services.

The Department of Health said

it was working to see what support

it could offer to families.

Theresa May will deliver a major

speech within the next three weeks

outlining the future

relationship Britain wants to have

with the EU after Brexit.

The Prime Minister will outline

what the government

is seeking in relation to security,

trade and workers' rights.

Other senior ministers are also due

to make speeches on Brexit,

including the Foreign Secretary,

Boris johnson, on Wednesday.

-- Boris Johnson.

And Boris Johnson has

met the Myanmar leader

Aung San Suu Kyi for talks,

a day after saying Rohingya refugees

should be allowed a safe

and dignified return.

Mr Johnson shook hands

with Aung San Suu Kyi

in the capital Nay Pyi Taw.

Nearly 700,000 Rohingya Muslims

have crossed the border

into neighbouring Bangladesh,

after a crackdown by

the Burmese military.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC

One is at 12.15.

Back to you, Andrew.

Many thanks.

Now to the papers.

The big story is Oxfam and the sex

workers, broken by The Times,

successfully followed up by the

Sunday Times in a major way today,

Mail on Sunday, same sort of story

about Jo Cox's former husband. The

Observer, again, Oxfam faces fresh

claims overstaffed paying for sex,

major story about private water

pay-out, Hubbard scandal, says

Labour, which will renationalise the

water industry if it comes back to

power. Sunday Telegraph, from the

other side of the Brexit debate,

Michel Barnier's aggression, very

aggressive in this week, in many

views, risking a walk out with a

beginning of the fracturing of

opinion on the European side of

negotiations, you do not often hear

about that. Gung ho from the Sunday

express. Lots to talk about. We will

start with the Sunday Times front

page.

This is an absolutely

disgraceful and shocking story, and

it now comes to light that up to 120

workers for Britain's leading

charities have been accused of

sexual abuse, Priti Patel, former

Defence Secretary, has said that she

fears there has been a culture of

predatory paedophilia going on in

the aid sector.

She says public

money should stop.

Tommy that is a

stretch too far, we should not

weaponise this to make a big

argument about whatever the rights

or wrongs are. -- to me that is a

stretch too far. When

-- when charities go into an area,

when there has been war, famine,

disaster, people are vulnerable and

the idea that people are exploiting

vulnerable people for sex is

absolutely disgraceful.

Not

absolutely disgraceful.

Not just

Haiti, there are other examples, in

Chad, and not just Oxfam, it is also

Save the Children.

The charity

sector should hold themselves to a

higher standard, and no sector, it

is not good for the charity sector

to say, we did not talk about it

because we were worried it might

affect donations, whether you are

the Catholic Church, politics,

charity, you should not be above

scrutiny, we should investigate

these without fear or favour.

That

is when you have a difficult

situation, Priti Patel, former

International Development Secretary,

this is a great political excuse not

to fund them, that is exactly it,

that is exactly why we would not...

This happened with Jimmy Savile at

the BBC and the Roman Catholic

Church, again and again, the idea of

protecting the reputation of the

organisation that overall does good,

in some of these scenarios, that

that is more important than a child

prostitute in Haiti not being

exploited and we have to get to

grips with this. If you are a

predatory paedophile, working for a

charity would be a really sensible

decision.

When you have a big story

like this, everyone goes in

different directions searching for

different aspects of sex problems,

in the charity sector, front page of

the Mail on Sunday.

This is sad.

Allegations against Brendan Cox, the

widower of Jo Cox, he denies the

allegations, we do have to think, I

think the media often time pick and

choose who they will expose in their

idea, allegations of true. And for

political value and news value and

we really need to being looked at.

-- allegations whether true or

false. These are politicised things,

and we need to be very careful about

people's anonymity and I think that

if you are going to be naming one

person as opposed to another person

and picking and choosing. Make very

clear why you are doing it.

You must

tread hugely carefully with these

things, but sometimes, revealing the

name of somebody brings forward

other victims.

Other people.

There

is a very fine line.

But we have

seen instances where people have

taken their lives, people having

careers ruined, MPs who do not know

what the charges are against them.

Also remember the thousands of

people that never get justice and

never have their voice heard.

We

could talk all morning about this

and it would be interesting but we

must move on. Michel Barnier, very

interesting.

It is, the Sunday

Telegraph has leaned hard into

Michel Barnier and they say that he

has been overreaching in terms of

language.

This is the punishment

clause, if we do not agree to his

deal on the transition.

And there is

a lot of briefing and counter

briefing, and what they are saying

is, diplomats, from a number of

countries, are questioning his

stats. You would expect me to say

this, I am on the other side from

Julia, but this is what the cut and

thrust of negotiations are like, you

cannot have a Gwyneth Paltrow

conscious uncoupling(!) it is a

dirty business

LAUGHTER

But do you accept that we pore over

every split, every problem on the

British government side, every

inconsistency but on the other side,

major nations disagree with each

other about the terms of Brexit and

dress between the national capitals

on one hand and Michel Barnier's

team on the other and we do not very

often report this.

The BBC does not

often report its! There is a major

issue, believing that everybody at

the EU speaks as though through the

Word of God, there is a major issue,

we have got an organisation in the

EU which is happily doing economic

damage to its own member states...

We are potentially doing economic

damage to ourselves.

Keep watching

next week.

You know that I always

watch the show. This is a spread by

Tim Shipman in the Sunday Times.

Besieged Theresa May pressed to put

Brexit meet on the cabinet table.

What is happening, as we see, speech

after speech. -- meat. Newspaper

column of the newspaper column,

Remainers and Brexiteers in the

cabinet, and outside, they are

constantly trying to get the Prime

Minister's ear, it is almost like

Donald Trump, never has spoken with

her last gets the official policy.

The general view, we want some

signal from Theresa May about what

she wants to do.

She has...!

You

does not know what she wants, that

is not true.

There has been signals,

then she goes back on them.

Excuse

me, very brief word, I'm really

sorry, but, certainly, according to

the Sunday express, we are about to

hear what she thinks, there will be

a statement coming shortly, and then

a series of expect speeches by

cabinet ministers laying out what

they want for these negotiations,

interestingly, Philip Hammond is not

among them.

She has had two meetings

this week with her in a war cabinet

and never has there been a better

title for a working group, the

problem is, they are still

fundamentally split over what kind

of Brexit they want. Whether they

want to have a diverging Brexit,

whether they want something much

more aligned. They have still not

come to...

We are wasting time on

this. Well...

Speech from Hammond,

knee gave a speech in Davos but the

less we hear from him, the better,

also for his own career! -- he gave

a speech in Davos.

At the end of

this programme, we have Spitfires

playing, they have a justice for

Grenfell sign on their speaker, but

this is a different kind of tower

block.

Horrific tragedy is and is of

Grenfell, need to be learned, but we

are failing to learn them in the

design of these residential towers,

huge building being done, the worry

is, it is supposed to be built with

only a single staircase providing an

escape from some of the highest

floors. A spokesman for the safety

network says that it is

extraordinary that we are in this

situation, very tall buildings with

one fire escape. The truth is, we

are building up in London, and...

The beautiful photograph behind you,

London is full of fast towers, some

of them have only a single staircase

to get out, that is terrifying. --

vast towers.

People believe this is

an attack on the poor, but rich or

poor, this is not about poor, not

about just Grenfell Tower, it is

across all buildings. A lot of talk

recently about pupils cheating, the

advent of the mobile phone, maybe

you heard it, I did not have it in

my day. You had to write on your

hand! Thousands of teachers caught

cheating, this says a lot about how

we view exams, it used to be you

would have an idea of how someone

good someone was as a standard but

now it is a route to something else

and everyone must get top grades, we

no longer see them as a factual

representation of ability so it is

OK to cheat.

Very different mindset.

A lot of people get super coached

for their exams.

Down to one final

story. You can choose between ice

hockey and...

I think we are going

to do ice hockey, the Winter

Olympics going on, but nobody really

cares because it is all about North

Korea and South Korea.

Really

interesting, North Korea making as

nice as North Korea ever makes!

Their diplomacy, there... They have

made all the attention onto them.

Kim

Kim Jong -- Kim Jong-un has sent his

little sister, I like to call her

Lil Kim(!) and I would love it if

she defected, if she stayed in South

Korea!

We all think it is a little

bit of a joke but at the end, North

Korea, murderous state, nasty

dictator, outplaying the diplomacy

of South Korea, China, Japan and

America!

Remember, this could be an

important first step, the only way

to calm down the temperature in

North Korea, diplomacy with South

Korea, so hopefully, this could be a

beginning of a thawing in relations.

Started with the ice hockey.

We had

ping-pong diplomacy in the 1970s.

Now, if they were

going to make a soap

opera about UKIP leaders,

they'd have to show it

after the watershed.

In real life, in the latest episode,

Henry Bolton has left his wife

and two small children over

Christmas for a young

model named Jo Marney,

who sent a stream of offensive text

messages saying the most

racist things possible

about Meghan Markle,

shortly to marry Prince Harry.

Unimpressed, his party are holding

a special meeting this week

where Mr Bolton is going to have

to plead for his job,

and convince them his relationship

with Ms Marney is over.

He's with me now.

Are you still in love with her?

There are strong affections, yes.

Your party would like to hear that

the relationship is over but you

can't say that.

That isn't true.

There was a vote of no-confidence.

There was a range of reasons. The

general consensus was, I mean, that

there was a problem with my judgment

around that whole episode. But the

point is that actually we are off

and we have been for a long time.

Off the field in terms of the debate

on the European Union. What we

should be doing is shaping the

future of this country's

independence. That is what we should

be focusing on. Not focusing on

private messages that had nothing to

do with me and I had no means of

knowing about them.

Very extreme

messages. You are still in touch.

Absolutely. This is a live

relationship.

That isn't the point. I'm the leader

of the political party that brought

around the referendum, that was

partly instrumental in bringing

about the result. We have a

responsibility to the British people

to project politics into the debate

to shape the future of this country.

That's what I'm 110% focused on.

I'm

asking you this because your party

are concerned. You said the

relationship was on hold. It's no

longer on hold, is it?

If you'll

excuse me, what the party is

concerned about is unifying and

projecting its politics. For very

long time now, way beyond when I

came leader, all of the members have

known that the organisation of the

party needed an overhaul. That's

been going on for the best part of a

year. From way before I was elected

leader. It's those things that need

to be turned around. The priority

for me has been to organise the

party and that doesn't happen

overnight.

You say the party are not

interested in Vista. This is what

Ben Walker, one your contenders

said, if it's true that they are

still an item and I have no reason

to doubt they are, it's another kick

in the teeth to hard-working

grassroots members of Ukip. The fact

he continues to associate with this

woman and her abhorrent views

demonstrate a disastrous lack of

judgment and complete disregard for

the party's reputation, which he has

managed to single-handedly

destroyed. His only achievement to

date.

He is on the back foot.

He

sounds to be on the front foot.

Absolutely not. The coming days will

prove that. He's been subversive and

disruptive in his activities towards

the party. Along with other people.

One of the purposes, and I was fully

transparent with this before I was

elected leader, before the campaign,

the primary task has got to be

reuniting the party. To do away with

the factorisation which has risen up

over a long period of time.

It'll be

difficult for you to do that.

Incredibly. The choice now facing

the membership is either continue

with the agenda of reform, but that

decision will be made on the 17th.

I

will not read up the tweets of your

girlfriend because they are so

offensive. They include things like

Meghan Markle's seed will taint our

Royal family. You have described --

she has also described Muslims as

the cancer of this earth. You said

there was some context to them which

will be revealed in time. What

context could there possibly be?

They were doctored.

But the source

of the tweets was power.

The person

you make them public, I mean, he

doctored them. It's the person who

makes these things public. These

were taken out of context.

You are

saying they are false, they were

doctored?

The source of one of those

text messages, or a couple of them,

and they were not texts by the way,

they were private Facebook messages.

And they were doctored by him. In

the days to come there will be more

evidence presented as to how they

were obtained. That source has been

misled by people within the party.

So there are issues within the

party. The first thing is to sort

this party up to present politics.

This is part of it. This is a

problem that's been going on for

many months. Way before I was

leader.

They are livid with you. Not

just this, but the fact you left

your wife and children in those

circumstances. At that meeting they

will hang you buy the heels, let's

be honest.

Absolutely not. I'm

getting lots of support from around

the country. The membership know

what has been going on within the

party for a long time. They know I'm

not responsible for that. They know

the factionalised nation needs to be

dealt with in order for the party to

be effective. -- functionalisation

needs to be dealt with.

It's over,

isn't it?

I don't believe that. The

decision will be made on the 17th.

If the party decides to go down the

route of another leadership contest

that will take five months to

complete, then the new leader has to

get themselves...

Then over?

By then

the party will have lost the

opportunity to shape the future of

this country post Brexit.

You are

saying it is me or just finished?

It

is reform or remain as we are now.

As we are now, as Ukip, it isn't

good enough. -- for Ukip, it isn't

good enough.

And so to the weather.

It's our first run out

with the new weather map!

Without going into the details,

basically, Scotland is back with us.

Hello Scotland!

Hello Scotland!

Over to Nick Miller

in the weather studio.

Scotland is in proportion with the

rest of the UK. The land is green

again and the weather is fitting in

with the season. Some sunshine, some

snow showers around today. They are

most frequent into western Scotland,

Northern Ireland, running into

north-west England, the Pennines,

but some will drift further south

and east across the UK over the

course of the day. Many southern and

eastern part of the UK will see

fewer showers compared with

elsewhere and some will stay dry. A

more detailed look at 3pm. These are

the specs of white where we are

expecting snow showers. Accumulating

in the hills, especially for western

Scotland and Northern Ireland,

several centimetres. You can see the

green gaps where things are clearing

up and we are seeing sunshine

occasionally, too. We are all colder

compared with yesterday. Ten bridges

between three to seven Celsius.

Still in brisk north westerly winds.

-- temperatures between three to

seven Celsius. Quieter tomorrow.

Gayle 's late in the West ahead of

this system moving in. Monday night

into Tuesday morning with rain,

sleet, and significant snow. --

Gales late in the West ahead of the

system moving in.

When will wind to end?

-- when will win to end?

Now, last week Anna

Soubry, the former

Tory Minister, said that

if the Brexiteers took control

of her party she might have to leave

it and form some kind

of "new alliance".

Pretty extraordinary.

Is this practical politics?

Is this a real threat

to Theresa May?

To try to find out I'm joined

by Anna Soubry and the kind

of person she'd like to form

an alliance with -

the Labour MP Chuka Umunna.

You are friendly on the sofa. An

awful lot of

awful lot of people, seven plus

million who voted for Brexit, will

say there you go they've not accept

the referendum result, even now

say there you go they've not accept

the referendum result, even now they

are trying to frustrate it. This is

an unholy parliamentarian plot.

I

say I'm interested in making sure we

get the best deal we possibly can.

That we get a Brexit that absolutely

put our economy at the front...

You

think Brexit will happen?

The most

important thing is that we continue

to put our country's interests first

and foremost. We both voted for

Article 50 to be triggered. People

often forget that. The other thing I

would say...

I was asking you, do

you think Brexit will definitely

happen?

I genuinely don't know what

is going to happen.

It might be

stopped?

I'll tell you who might

stop it, that's the people of this

country. We won't. It's the people.

We gave the people they referendum.

They voted for it.

Exactly.

There is

no majority in the House of Commons

for us simply to jump off a cliff.

Nobody voted to be poorer. You are

correct to refer to that referendum.

Nobody voted for us to jump off a

cliff. Increasingly what you are

seeing is people seeking to put

ideology for the national interest

-- before the national interest. A

good example of that is the Good

Friday Agreement. If we come out of

the customs union... We want all

sides to be clear that he would

potentially threaten the Good Friday

settlement. Will we really put that

at risk for ideology? However things

pan out, it has to be the national

interest, that's what you have

people working cross party to make

sure that's the case.

Let's walk you

through the democracy side of this.

Terry hole in

-- you would be tearing a hole in

democracy if Brexit was stopped. And

if it was stopped there would have

to be a second referendum. Jeremy

Corbyn will not call one. We know

Theresa May won't call one for

obvious reasons, as well. Therefore,

unless there was a majority in the

House of Commons for something the

party leaderships are against, it

won't happen. That isn't practical

politics, is it?

Hang on... This

whole thing, it'll be the people who

decided in the end. You are right.

You cannot fight for the will of the

people if they get the final say.

But Parliament is not a bystander.

Parliament gets to determine what

happens. My personal view was that I

would like to see the people get the

final say with the options to opt

in.

And your joint determination is

that Parliament will have a clear,

decisive vote on whatever terms

Theresa May reveals to the country

in due course?

And all options must

be available to Parliament, as well.

The real thing is this, if this

government does not get this right

it will end up in a position whereby

the majority of members of

Parliament putting their

constituents at first will find

themselves unable to vote for a

withdrawal agreement.

Then it really

is the cliff edge.

No, no, their

options.

Yes, that's the point.

--

no, no, there are options.

If

Theresa May vote it down...

We

secured a meaningful vote before

Christmas. Dominic grieve tabled the

amendment. There was a majority in

parliament for it. What it ensures

is that Parliament doesn't just give

government a blank cheque, but we

get to have a voice and voice all of

the different scenarios.

We saw lots

of desperate people. One of the big

messages was that if we don't take a

withdrawal agreement there are other

options. That isn't just staining in

the European Union, that's also the

Norwegian model. -- staying in. The

big mistake is the debate in

government is about Canada, and

Canada plus plus plus.

Norway has

gone?

Yes, which is a big mistake.

The big choices between Norway and

Canada and we've made a mistake with

these red lines.

You cannot have

your cake and eat it, no matter how

many times you say it.

Exactly.

Theresa May says she will come out

with her preferred option for how we

leave the EU. What could she say

that would calm both of you down?

From my point of view I want to see

absolutely back in...

We are still

inside a free-trade area?

Exactly.

We are still members of the EEA. The

Norwegians have control of their

agricultural and fishing policies. I

still want us to be in the customs

union.

That will never happen.

Why?

It would be bad for the economy and

it undermines the peace process.

It

is difficult to see how she could

reduce a deal you both will back.

I'll ask you the same sort of

question about Jeremy Corbyn. You

have heard him rule out a second

referendum and a customs union. Yet

we hear rumours, stories and the

papers, that behind the scenes here

slightly more open-minded. Are you

making any progress with the lead --

with the Labour leadership?

He moved

us into a position where we would

stay in the customs union before

transition. But I cannot conceive of

circumstances where Labour MPs are

marshalled to go through the lobby,

and to vote as voting against Dane

in the customs union with the likes

of Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson,

and Michael Gove. -- against staying

in the customs union. I cannot see

them doing that, which would damage

the interests of our constituents.

One important last question. Do you

really believe we have the majority

in the House of Commons on the Tory

side and Labour side coming together

to complete the kind of Brexit the

country once?

If she's not careful,

yes. There is a real shift among

what I call reluctant Remainers,

Leaver lites is what I call them.

This is important, I wish that Chuka

would come into the lobby with me

but he does not, last week there was

a very good police settlement, you

voted against it.

Anna does not vote

with me on the NHS but...

Not just

physically now, you are closer to

each other politically... You are

closer to each other politically

than you are on... On Brexit, yes.

You are closer to John McDonnell and

you are closer to Jacob Rees-Mogg --

you are closer to her than John

McDonnell, and you are closer to him

than Jacob Rees-Mogg.

This is bigger

than party politics, we will not be

forgiven by future generations if we

play party politics.

Is this a new

alliance?

Chuka says this is the

issue upon which we are united, that

is the most important thing, putting

country and constituents first and

that is what everyone else has to

do, not just MPs but also British

businesses have got to speak up for

the economic Brexit everyone is

crying out for.

Time is up, you

heard it here first(!)

Now, listening to all

of that, a loyal member

of Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet,

Labour's Communities

spokesman

Andrew Gwynne.

in the past you have said that

Brexit could tear apart the Labour

Party. Is it coming about?

No, we

have a clear here and position, we

have said that there needs to be a

transitional period, and that

transitional period access that we

will be part of the single market.

-- know we have a coherent position.

Only for a couple of years, does not

solve it.

It is acting as a bridge

to the new relationship with the

European Union, we are leaving the

European Union, we have a referendum

on this, and how we get to the final

destination and what the final

destination looks like should not be

rushed to a March 2019 deadline,

everyone is agreed that the

government will struggle to get a

bespoke deal by March 2019, that is

why we need a proper transitional

period, time-limited, so that we can

get the deal we want to see.

Michel Barnier has been very clear

that to get the transition we must

listen to all of their terms.

Given

the transition period, where we are

now, are you concerned it will not

happen?

Where the government is

should send worrying signals to the

country at large. They have brought

out a number of measures that we

would like to see in the

transitional period, we have said we

will access the roles and

regulations of the single market, we

will be part of the single market

and Customs union for the

transitional period, that is

important, so we can get to a

position that we need to be when we

are outside the European Union.

Let's talk about the position you

need to get to, Owen Smith, Shadow

Cabinet colleague, has been clear,

hard border, talking about Northern

Ireland, must be avoided, and it is

only membership of the single market

and Customs union that can guarantee

the open border so important to the

Good Friday Agreement, that is a

breach of party discipline and party

policy.

What he is saying is that

one way of avoiding the hard border

is to ensure the current

arrangements continue between the UK

and the European Union, of course,

that would make Britain...

He says

it is the only way, you have to stay

in those things or else, that is way

way way...

That would make Britain a

rule taker and not a rule maker, and

I think what we have got to do is

make sure there is a Brexit deal

that secures the benefits of the

single market, that mirrors the

rules and conditions... What we do

not want to do, we do not want to

end up with workers conditions,

environmental protection is being

less in the United Kingdom than

elsewhere in Europe but we need to

make the roles ourselves.

This is a

crucial question facing the country,

the Labour Party believes in giving

your own members a proper say, eight

policy commissions now, designed to

allow ordinary Labour Party members

and even voters to have their say in

shaping the policy, how many of the

eight commissions deal with Brexit?

All eight of them.

None.

I am of the

community 's commission, you will

find that on each of those

commissions, we have a dedicated

member that is looking at the impact

of Brexit in each policy area.

A lot

of your own MPs think you have

sliced it up so find there is no

forum for debate.

You cannot go from

saying there is none, to now saying

it is sliced up finally, there are

eight policy commissions, dealing

with a whole range of policies, all

of whom...

In which case, why have

30 of your colleagues written to the

NEC, asking for a proper debate on

Brexit because you think it has been

pushed to one side, a really

important issue, treated like a

marginal one, in the words of Heidi

Alexander.

I do not think it is

being treated marginal, Brexit is

always the number one subject

wherever we go.

That may be

absolutely clear, when it comes to

not being a member of the customs

union and not being a member of the

single market, that is absolutely

clearly Labour Party policy and will

not change?

The Labour Party policy,

Keir Starmer has made it very clear,

we do not take anything off the

table, that is the mistake...

That

is the mistake... You yourself have

said you can change policy of public

opinion changes.

That is the mistake

the current government have made,

rolled out everything, we have said

that we want to have the benefits of

the single market, we also, Andrew,

want to have that tariff free custom

free trade with Europe, and that

means having some form of a customs

union with the European Union.

Cake

and cake eaten. Some would say. Your

own department, whole series of

really bad crises, in Conservative

councils around the country, sorry,

Northamptonshire, many more. Big

budget deficits, will a Labour

government give them the extra money

they need?

We have said we will

fully resourced local government, in

the manifesto for the last general

election, we identified £2 billion

for last year that we would have

invested directly in local

government services but also putting

money into adult social care,

children services and early years as

well.

INAUDIBLE

It is those things that are tipping

councils over the financial cliff

edge.

Very clearly, would you

reverse the cuts are Conservatives

have made to local authorities?

I

have said we will invest in adult

social care. Well, investing in

those services means we are putting

money in, we are helping councils

avoid that financial cliff edge.

A

radical government should be able to

say, we will reverse the cuts,

presumably you cannot say that

because it is too expensive.

We will

put money back in, the local

government Association says councils

need to billion pounds on children

services alone.

Let's turn to how we

raise that money.

At the budget,

this comes onto the point, the

Conservative government cut £5

billion on the bank levy, we oppose

that, we said to billion pounds of

that should be given to children

services this year, precisely the

money the local government

Association said it needs.

If

taxpayers want better local

services, one way or another they

will have to pay for that, it has

been a long time since we have had a

council tax evaluation, 1991 was the

last one, you have said this is an

absurd situation, can you tell us

today that the Labour government in

power will re-evaluate and have

another re-evaluation of council tax

bands.

Need to be more radical, we

need to look afresh at how we fund

local government going forward, that

is a big piece of work that we are

going to undertake. The problem

about this, council tax is broken,

not fit for purpose, 1% increase in

council tax on my own local

authority Thamesside in Greater

Manchester brings in just £700,000.

And yet social care gap this year,

£16 million. That does not fix the

problem.

Push council tax away into

history, and replace it with

something else. There has been a

suggestion that land value tax is

something your party is looking at.

We are looking at what we need to do

to fix how we finance local

government going forward, we have

not made up minds on what that will

be, it might be that the council

tax...

An extra income tax? Perhaps?

Maybe council tax can be reformed,

there are lots of examples of how

revenues are raised across the

country, we need an open-minded and

general discussion about this.

General question, have you

completely open mind about whether a

new tax to pay for local authority

would remain essentially a property

base tax? Or whatever it might be on

the one hand, and, some extra form

of income tax, as they use in the

United States?

Let's look at what

works and what works in this

country, I will take international

examples but you put some of those

policy ideas through the machine,

and what comes out at the other end

might not work in this country but

what is crucial is we properly fund

local services because local

government is on the brink of

collapse.

Lots of aspirations, we

have not got clear answers, we wait,

agog(!)

Now, coming up later this morning,

as the Prime Minister tries

to thrash out Britain's relationship

with the EU after Brexit,

Labour's Seema Malhotra

and Conservative MEP

Dan Hannan go head to head.

And Andy McDonald, the shadow

transport secretary on Labour's

plans for renationalisation.

That's the Sunday Politics,

with Sarah Smith, here on BBC One.

Well, earlier on we were

talking on about that

terrible Oxfam scandal,

and the extent to which we should be

asking questions not just of Oxfam

but of the government,

and the Department for International

Development in particular.

The Secretary of State,

Penny Mordaunt,

who has been in the job

since November, is with me.

when you came across this story,

when was it?

When I first came

across it, it was when the Times

came across the story.

That was the

first you knew of it?

My reaction,

it is a complete betrayal both of

the people that Oxfam were there to

help and the people who sent them

there to do the job, it is a

scandal.

Let's walk through aspects

of the scandal bit by bit. First of

all, Oxfam allowed the people

responsible for this appalling

behaviour to leave relatively

quietly, no hullabaloo, those people

who were responsible in Haiti, and

they were not fired, allowed to

resign.

Shocking, does not matter

how good the safeguarding practices

are in an organisation, if that

organisation does not have the moral

leadership to do the right thing,

and where, in particular, they have

evidence of criminal activity, to

pass that information to the

relevant authorities, including

prosecuting authorities, that is an

absolute absence of leadership.

You

feel that Oxfam failed in its moral

leadership.

Yes, I do.

Second phase,

having let these people go, they

joined other aid organisations and

charities and those organisations

were not told about any of this,

again, what is your reaction?

That

is a scandal, that is why we must

ensure people are reporting these

offences, when they take place. We

have got to give the sector the best

chance it has, at ensuring that

people who are, we suspect,

targeting this sector in order to

carry out predatory activities, that

we give them the best chance we can

not to allow that to happen.

When

will you meet Oxfam and have the

conversation face-to-face?

I'm

eating them tomorrow and affording

them the opportunity to tell me in

person what they did after these

events. And I am going to be looking

to see if they are displaying the

moral leadership that I think they

need to now. We are talking about an

historic case, it is in some

respects still live, they have

information they should be giving to

the authorities.

In terms of your

department, back when all of this

happened, 2011, what were you told

as a department by Oxfam?

We were

not told about the nature of these

events, they initially said that

they were investigating misconduct,

and when they concluded that report,

they did not tell us the nature of

these events. They did tell the

charity commission that there was

sexual inappropriate behaviour,

bullying and harassment of

employees, but they did not put that

to us.

Given that new knew there was

a problem, at the very least, was it

not a little in curious of your

department not to ask more?

Oxfam

also gave reassurances of two things

critical to us.

-- incurious.

It is

about was there any harm done? Was

there any involvement of the

beneficiaries of aid involved, any

impact on them? They told us

categorically, no.

That was a lie.

Yes, and no misappropriation of

funds they said as well. That is the

other thing we would have been

concerned with.

This is beginning to

look like a cover up, certainly

clear that they lied to you, they

get quite a lot of public money from

you, is there any part of you that

is beginning to think, we should not

be paying tax payers money to this

organisation?

Yes, I think that, I

am going to afford them the

opportunity to talk to me tomorrow

but I am clear, does not matter

whether you have a whistle-blowing

hotline, does not matter if you have

good safeguarding practices in

place, if the moral leadership at

the top of the organisation is not

there, then we cannot have you as a

partner. I would also note, there

are enormous numbers of people who

are doing good work and good people

working at Oxfam. They have been

betrayed in this as well.

Absolutely

stop cover up? -- absolutely.

Cover-up? I do not know what their

motivation was, I'm affording them

the opportunity tomorrow to talk to

me directly, they did absolutely the

wrong thing, they let individuals

who had undertaken criminal

activity, they let them go, they did

not tell prosecuting authorities,

they did not tell their regulator

and they did not do what they

should.

They will probably tell you

tomorrow they are doing good and

important work around the world and

were worried that if people knew

about this, they would stop

donating.

There is some actions I am

looking for them taking now.

If they don't hand over all of their

information from their investigation

into all of the relevant

authorities, then I cannot work with

them any more.

That is the end of

public money if they don't do what

you tell them. You say UK aid should

be withdrawn from this scandalous

organisation. You will give them one

more chance, otherwise you agree

with them?

I need to look at the

facts. I want to afford them the

opportunity to tell me their side of

the story so I have all of the

facts. I'm clear. The sector has to

set up -- step up in terms of

tackling what is an industry that

has been targeted by individuals.

By

paedophiles, in fact.

Yes, targeting

this because of the chaos that we

work in. And we have to do

everything to ensure that those

people are spotted and other

organisations that might be

potentially hiring them in the

future don't.

You talk about the

sector as a whole. We've been

focusing on Oxfam for many reasons.

They've been a noble organisation

for this work. But it isn't just

them, it's Christian Nade, it's Save

The Children, founded after the

First World War. -- its Christian

Aid. Do you worry that the aid

project is under threat because of

what has happened?

This is an issue.

We need to do more. This has been

led through the UN, through getting

reforms, through getting the

oversight needed. I'm writing out to

all of the organisations we work

with to ensure that the practices

and the moral leadership is there.

Are you going to call in the

children, Christian Aid, and other

organisations that have been named?

-- are you going to call in Save the

Children.

I also think we need to

get the international community to

step up. I'll be making a speech

later this week at an international

conference looking at child

protection and raising these issues.

You came into politics, used to work

in orphanages, lots of people give

money to these organisations, are

they going to be thinking maybe I

won't after all of this? What you

say to them? Aid does an awful lot

of good around the world. It's also

good for the UK.

It makes us more

prosperous and more secure. We

contribute towards global health

security and many other aspects. Aid

is good. But if we believe that then

we must reassure donors, whether

they are people donating

voluntarily, or whether it is

governments and the international

community, we must demonstrate that

money isn't just being spent well,

but could not be spent better.

Can

ask more about this unhappy episode.

Can we be clear that in the future

the use of prostitutes by any staff

of

of NGOs will mean that their company

stops getting aid?

Many of the

organisations we work with work with

local staff in very complex

situations. For me it is about what

the organisation does to prevent

that from happening...

So it has

better internal...

And that it has a

report given to it. What is

important about Oxfam is that when

it was reported to them they failed

to do the right thing. That is what

we must focus on. That is what will

ultimately stop predatory

individuals being able to take

advantage of vulnerable people.

You

had Jacob Rees Mogg going up to

number ten with a big petition from

Express readers against the aid

going to them. Doesn't your job

harder -- does it make your job

harder?

We need to make the case for

aid better. We need a higher

spending bar. It cannot just be

spent well. We must demonstrate to

people that it could not be spent

better in the national interest,

whether that be the NHS or social

care. That's what we must focus on.

Ultimately aid alleviates pressure

on the NHS. Alleviates pressure on

our Armed Forces. It's a sensible

thing to do.

Of course.

But we

cannot do it badly. The 0.7 is only

a help if we spend it well and that

is what we want to demonstrate.

Are

you sure that British citizens were

not involved in any of these cases,

and that no British citizens were

having sects with underage people?

Because that would be a criminal

offence in this country. -- having

sex with underage people.

It would

be. We are part of an international

agreement. That means no matter

where you are committing an offence,

you British citizen, it is an

offence here. This is not about the

law being strengthened. This is

about organisations reporting to

prosecution organisations...

I was

wondering what information you have

on this.

This is an emerging

picture. More allegations are coming

out from Oxfam and other

organisations. I've written out to

every organisation we work with

asking them to place on a record all

of the events, historic or current,

they are aware of and any other

safeguarding issues they are aware

of. And all of them will be followed

up.

Let's move on. Six major

speeches by the Prime Minister and

an array of other Cabinet ministers

on Brexit coming over the next

couple of weeks. What will we learn

from these?

What the public want is

the vision. They want meat on the

bones. That is what they are going

to get. That will involve, at the

end of the process, the Prime

Minister setting out what that new

partnership will look like. But it

will also give detail on our trading

ambitions relationship, on what it

means for devolution, and many other

aspects.

If you are a major company

watching very worriedly at this

process, we had the Japanese

ambassador talking about Japanese

companies pulling out if they don't

get the kind of tariff free aspects

they want, they will get answers

within the next couple of weeks.

They will get some.

We want

negotiations.

That's the key

difference. This is a negotiation.

At least they will know our

position.

Exactly. That is what

business is looking for. We have got

to give business and other

organisations, as well, a flavour of

what they need to plan for. And

certainty about what we are looking

for.

And perhaps what they are most

concerned about is the transition

period. Is it a given it will

happen?

My personal view is I do

because it's in our interest and it

is in the EU's interest. Common

sense will prevail.

Michel Barnier

said it isn't a given and his -- and

he has laid down some clear

instructions. He says if you don't I

have a series of punishment I can

impose on you and you can say

nothing about them. Do you think he

is being discourteous to this

country, at the very least?

I would

agree with what David Davis has said

on that matter. But what I would say

to the public is that actually the

other nations involved in this are

very pragmatic and have not been

impressed with some of the language

the commission has used. Ultimately

this is about what is good for us

and good for the remainder of the

EU.

In terms of the rights of EU

citizens coming here during the

transition period, the Prime

Minister has been clear that it

changes, we've left the EU, it's a

different situation, is that over

time for this country?

It is what we

are setting out in our position. All

of this is in negotiation.

Up until

now, we fold on everything, we say

this is a red light, then they say

no, then we fold, and things move

on.

-- red line. We will be setting

out our detail on these issues in

the coming months. That is something

we are looking for. Ultimately it

will be the negotiation, the phrase

that is strutted out, nothing is

decided until everything is decided.

These things make sense. We are

right to ask for them.

I don't know

if you had a chance to hear an Anne

Soubry and Chuka Umunna early on, do

you think this is driving a party to

breaking point?

I don't think so.

The Parliamentary party and the

Cabinet are behind the Prime

Minister. We are trying to get the

best deal possible for the UK. I

have great respect for Anne Soubry

and Chuka Umunna. But we had a

referendum. We are moving. Which

ever way people voted we all have an

interest in getting the best deal

possible. That is what we are doing.

The last time we were talking,

during the referendum campaign, you

were full of confidence and optimism

about this. You and people like you

never told us how hard it was going

to be.

Nobody thought it was going

to be a walk in the park. But

actually I think once you get past

the Westminster bubble, and you look

at the practical things that need to

happen, what is ultimately good for

us, for our security and prosperity,

and what is good for the remainder

of the EU, the Democrat security and

prosperity, actually they are the

same...

You remain cheaper.

I am. --

you remain chipper.

Now a look at what's

coming up straight

after this programme.

We debate race. Is today's Britain

racist? There are rumours the Prime

Minister is considering cutting

tuition fees, we ask whether higher

education is fit for purpose. See

you at ten on BBC One.

Almost out of time for today.

Join us again next Sunday at nine,

when I'll be speaking

to Guy Verhofstadt,

the Brexit Coordinator

for the European Parliament and,

delayed by a week, Jeremy Irons

and Lesley Manville.

Until then, we leave you with one

of the most exciting young bands

around at the moment.

This is The Spitfires

and "Stand Down".

Goodbye.

# Spend a lifetime

ignoring the facts

# Young people standing with a wall

against their backs

# The TV says we're

on the verge of war

# Receipts for lost lives collect

at their front doors

# Still it could be much

much worse they say

# An education debt

that you won't pay

# This is the road

laid out for you

# I mean what else are you gonna do?

# Cause this is your

future you can see

# Even though it looks

like your past to me

# Stand down

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

# Stand down

# Get a degree but

you'll never need it

# Stand down

# Stand down, stand down

# Stand down, stand down

# You've shed enough tears

to wash away the tracks

# Thrown off enough

to keep you turning back

# You never said it could end up

this way

# This road they laid

out for you

# I mean what else are you gonna do?

# Cause this is your future you can

see

# Even though it looks

like your past to me

# Stand down

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

# Stand down

# Get a degree but you'll never need

it

# Stand down

# Stand down, stand down

# Stand down, stand down

# Stand down

# Get a job and fight

to keep it

# Stand down

# Get a degree but

you'll never need it

# Stand down

# Stand down, stand down

# Stand down, stand down #.