25/02/2018 The Andrew Marr Show

Good morning.

At the end of the week when,

at last, Theresa May and her key

Cabinet Ministers sat down

at Chequers to work out

how to leave the EU.

Pictures in most of the papers show

a scene just like the end

of an Agatha Christie,

with Mrs May as Miss Marple, the EU,

of course, our podgy Belgian Poirot,

lurking somewhere outside.

But whose body - whose

political career, perhaps -

is that, lying sprawled

below the mantlepiece?

Exercising his little grey

cells, I'm joined by Dr Liam Fox,

the International Trade Secretary,

and leading Brexiteer.

What does this new

accord actually mean?

Meanwhile, we're told

Jeremy Corbyn is changing

direction on Brexit as well.

We've heard that many times before.

Sir Keir Starmer,

Labour's Shadow Brexit

Secretary, joins us too.

And I'm joined this

morning by the writer

of the global bestseller

purporting to lift the lid

on Donald Trump's White House,

Michael Wolff, author

of Fire and Fury.

And you'll probably be

familiar with this.

It's a Matt cartoon.

But who is Matt?

He rarely gives television

interviews, but I've been talking

to him after 30 years

of entertaining Telegraph readers.

And we have live music.

The best of Bach from one of

the classical world's newest stars -

Sheku Kanneh-Mason.

Harmony and disharmony of all kinds.

Reviewing the news, the TV presenter

and campaigner, June Sarpong,

and Theresa May's former director

of communications, Katie Perrior.

First, though, the news

with Christian Fraser.

Good morning.

Syrian activists say government

forces carried out more air strikes

on the rebel-held area

of Eastern Ghouta last

night, in spite of a UN

Security Council resolution calling

for an immediate ceasefire.

The vote in favour of a 30-day truce

was passed unanimously.

It's hoped that an end

to fighting would allow

humanitarian aid to be brought

in and injured civilians rescued.

The International Olympic Committee

has voted to keep its ban on Russia

but says it will be lifted

if there are no further positive

tests from the Winter

Games in South Korea.

The decision means that the Russian

athletes at Pyeongchang will not be

allowed to carry their national flag

at today's closing ceremony.

Russia was stripped of its Olympic

status before the Games because of

accusations of state-sponsored

doping.

More than 80 senior Labour figures

have issued a statement

in the Observer newspaper warning

Jeremy Corbyn that he wouldn't be

able to deliver his spending

promises unless the UK stays

in the EU single market.

The Labour leader is due to make

a major speech on Brexit tomorrow.

He's expected to commit Labour

to backing membership of some

kind of customs union,

but not to remaining

in the single market.

One of Bollywood's greatest leading

ladies has died at the age of 54.

Sridevi Kapoor -

known just as Sridevi -

starred in more than 200 films

in a career spanning four decades.

She's thought to have had a heart

attack while attending

a family wedding in Dubai.

And tributes are also being paid

to the British actress Emma Chambers

who has died at the age of 53.

She was best known

for her roles in The Vicar

of Dibley and Notting Hill.

Her agent said she died

of natural causes.

That's all from me.

The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

Back to you, Andrew.

Thank you.

As ever to the front pages. The

Sunday Telegraph has a Brexit story

about the SNP potentially derailing

trade deals and the England rugby

team having been derailed by

Scotland yesterday. I never watch

these games because whenever I do,

Scotland loses. I did not watch it,

Scotland won. The Sunday Times, the

story about top shop, and Pat

story about top shop, and Pat -- the

Archbishop of Canterbury. The Mail

on Sunday, help lines for heroes,

soldiers, a campaign may have been

running for a long time, a

breakthrough on that. More of the

politics inside. Where is the

Observer? A whole lot of senior

Labour figures, Neil Kinnock and

more, piling pressure on Jeremy

Corbyn, they want him to commit to

joining the single market, staying

in the single market, as well as the

customs union. Let us start, Katie

Perrior, you were at the heart of

the May operation for a long time,

big spread in the Sunday Times,

although ministers gathered around,

a very detailed briefing from Number

10 in the paper.

-- all the

ministers. A cracking long read in

the Sunday Times, great detail about

what happened, they move from room

to room in a Cluedo style, they left

their mobile phones, taken away,

they discussed Brexit and many other

things over shortbread and cups of

tea. It seems to be they got on,

brilliant briefing from Number 10,

great pictures of who is who in the

room.

There is a fairly detailed

account of what they have now

agreed. Can we go through that?

They

have talked about demand for mutual

recognition, standards on goods

traded between the UK and the EU,

public commitment to make sure

standards are as high as the EU,

keeping rules and regulations

substantially similar. And what Greg

Hart has done, standing up for the

automotive centre, saying diverging

stars not protect jobs. I run

through of everyone's role in the

day. -- diverging does not protect

jobs.

Over time, Britain will be

able to diverging all sorts of

different ways and there will be

some kind of mechanism not involving

the European court overseeing that,

the essence of the deal?

Absolutely

but the EU told us we could not

cherry pick.

Will it be saleable?

The EU may well say, that is your

starting position, we do not like

it. We need a meaningful vote in

parliament at some point.

We are

scrabbling around to understand the

changes, big changes on the Labour

side, June.

Front page of the

Observer, the Labour alliance piles

pressure on Jeremy Corbyn over his

Brexit stance. 80 senior Labour

figures have come together to put

pressure on Jeremy Corbyn, not just

to remaining in something of a

customs union, but also to remain in

the single market.

Can I stop you

there? People get confused. The

customs union is the great ring

fence around the EU. If we

stay inside that, something like it,

we have to take EU rules?

The EU

negotiates for us. Totally.

Many

people including Neil Kinnock

sayyid, if we are going to do that,

why not stay in the single market?

Totally. It is about the movement of

goods. We have to look at the

freedoms, but what we have to decide

is whether or not it is worth it

when we know the terms of the deal.

What that 80 senior Labour figures

are saying, Helena Kennedy, Doreen

Lawrence, Chuka Umunna, Neil

Kinnock, if Jeremy Corbyn wants to

fund his anti-austerity measures,

the only way to do it is to remain

in the single market.

Highly

political because there is an

amendment to the trade bill backed

by Anna Soubry and Tory remainers.

The question is, if the Labour Party

gets alongside that, Theresa May can

potentially lose her majority on

absolutely crucial question of the

day?

Absolutely. They have pushed

those votes to the back end of the

spring, the select committee are

saying, we might have a vote

earlier, this is looking like it

will not go away.

You cannot coexist

down the road forever because we

have that actual negotiations that

McCready cannot kick this.

The

Sunday Times, spinning plates, the

more you pick it down the road,

hopefully we will be in a place,

concessions from the EU, when some

people around.

Wait and see. Other

really important story today, the

horror going on again in Syria, we

thought things had calmed down, much

worse over the last two weeks.

We

have the ceasefire agreed by the UN,

Russia does not look like it has

vetoed it, so it looks like it will

go ahead, but whenever there is a

ceasefire, there is heavy bombing

beforehand, they try to get as much

done before abiding by the

ceasefire. Shocking

ceasefire. Shocking scenes, we have

been here before. At what point do

we feel seminars can be done,

intervene? Parliamentarians feel

helpless, we feel helpless, and

we're not quite sure about giving

money to that aid charities...

Absolutely. This is the penalty of

not intervening at the beginning. We

intervened in a ruck and to many

people's views, that went wrong --

we intervened in Iraq. We are

impotent observers.

As Johnny Mercer

says, at least force yourself to

watch the pictures, if you cannot do

anything, do not turn a blind eye.

They cannot be sure Assad will keep

to it either.

We have been talking a

lot about the scandals in that aid

sector, another one this morning in

the Sunday Times.

This is in the

Sunday Times, another one, advisory

group to Mines, hit by a terrible

story, many of the senior employees

used prostitutes and two stories in

the DRC were members had affairs

with local women and one apparently

impregnated one of the women and

abandon her. A charity that Prince

Harry supports, so these stories are

not going away.

Spreading in all

directions. Katie, another of the

really big stories of the moment,

the University and College strike,

unprecedented, students are

consumers.

They are consumers,

paying over £9,000 in fees, and many

more in living costs, and they are

demanding a higher standard of

return on investment. There is no

letup in the fact these lecturers

will continue to strike, they are

striking over pensions, they will

lose £10,000 a year under the new

rules.

A lot of these people, the

pensions would not have been that

big in the first place, they are not

asked or negotiated with, just told,

you are losing this money.

One of

the attention is on vice

chancellors, but it covers all

lecturers and many are on much lower

wages. The students are quite big

numbers supporting lecturers on this

but at the same time, saying, if we

are not having lectures, we want a

refund.

So much to talk about.

Picking up a storm at the Brit

awards,, Stormzy.

A new day in

politics when the Prime Minister is

having to respond to the grime

artist. He called rout over Grenfell

, but then he backed a petition the

next day to have it debated in the

Commons and the petition overnight

received over 137,000 signatures,

even more than that now, and it is

wonderful to see someone like him

using his platform for a purpose and

speaking truth to power.

Good, but

Theresa May was not responsible for

Grenfell

she is responsible for

dealing with it. And that is why it

is right the young people are

holding her to account.

Let me ask

you the new world of Number 10 these

days, back in the day, an MP put

down a question, the Prime Minister

would eventually be obliged to

respond, now Stormzy says something

on the Brit awards and the Prime

Minister has to respond.

It is not

just this, it is the way forward,

lots of MPs are saying it is an open

door now.

Do you think your

successor would have to say, excuse

me, let me tell you about someone

called Stormzy?

There are always

those scenarios! You see something

on Twitter, you have to describe to

MPs who they are.

Is she a big grime

fan?

I doubt it, but Matt Hancock

apparently is.

Extraordinary story

about Winston Churchill in the

Telegraph. We thought he never

played away.

It seems that is not

the case. Who knew that? Apparently

he had an affair with a lady who was

the great

the great aunt of Carla Levine and

he painted pictures of her.

This is

genuinely new, something none of us

knew before. A very sad story, we

will have to end on this, an

extraordinary actress who we all

remember, very compelling and

unusual face in The Vicar of Dibley

and many other things, Four Weddings

And A Funeral.

Died at 53, such a

young age, many celebrities have

said she lit up the screen and she

was very much someone who was warm

and genuine and kind. I think she

will be really missed within that

community. But we can always watch

reruns and I always think... It is a

sad thing to lose someone, but the

gift that keeps on giving, to watch

them.

So unexpected and shocking.

Gorgeous goofy look, representing

the goofy in all of us.

The role was

made for her, much missed.

Thank you

both very much indeed.

And so to the weather.

Beautiful sunshine in the south,

but a huge wave of icy

air from the Continent.

I thought we'd voted

to stop that happening.

Over to Philip Avery

in the weather studio.

Good morning. I will leave the

political forecast to you.

We are linked to the continent for

the coming few days because it is

going to keep it very cool, although

today mostly dry with temperatures

between one and 8 degrees depending

on where you are. Tonight, a very

cold night in prospect and the first

signs of some wintry showers falling

into a cold start widely across the

British Isles on Monday morning. It

will feel much colder than the

weekend wherever you are stepping

out of the door first up. Those

wintry showers to be had there, like

at this stage I would have thought

across eastern areas, and notice how

already those temperatures have

dipped away. And then, Monday

evening into Tuesday, we think a

more organised area of snow leaving

several centimetres in its wake will

gradually drag its way down and

across the British Isles. The signs

of things to come here. Feeling

much, much colder. I will show you

the feels like. This will be ramped

up into the middle part of the week,

as indeed will be those wintry

showers. Andrew, winter is coming

back with a vengeance.

showers. Andrew, winter is coming

back with a vengeance.

It certainly is.

When Michael Wolff's controversial

book about Donald Trump

was published in the US,

it so angered the president

that he called the author

a liar and a total loser.

Among other things, Fire and Fury

suggested that Trump was devastated

when he won the election,

that all his senior staffers believe

he's unfit to be president,

and that the Trump campaigns links

to Russia were, in Steve

Bannon's view, treasonous.

Since publication, Michael Wolff's

own reputation has come under fire

while sales of his book continue

to soar, and he joins me now.

Let me start, welcome, by asking you

about

Let me start, welcome, by asking you

about your access. Did you get to

talk to the president once he had

become president Costa I spent about

three hours in one-on-one

conversations with the president

over the course of the campaign, the

transition and in the White House,

yes. And I read an account of you

being able to sit on a sofa just

outside the Oval Office while people

were coming and going for hours and

hours.

Is that true? That is true.

So you had very good access. Why

would they give someone like you,

not a natural prompt supporter, such

good access? -- not a natural Donald

Trump supporter, such good access?

I

don't really know the answer to that

but I would guess that they are

totally incompetent. They don't

really know what they are doing, it

is the White House in chaos, so I

was able to slip in. Beyond that,

the president and I have got on in

the past.

In the past. Uate total

loser.

Now I am a total loser.

Before that, I was the best, the

greatest.

But to be clear, you spoke

to him in the White House?

I did,

yes.

For those who don't know the

book, the overall message is that

President Trump is not fit to be the

president?

It is not my message, I

was very clear about that. It is the

people around him, his closest

advisers who have that message.

When

we have got the terrible shooting

and all these people coming to him

on the street, is he capable of

having empathy for them, to change

policy on guns, or example?

I don't

think you can change policy on guns

in America because his base, that is

arguably the most important issue

for his base. There is no

possibility under the political son

that he can change direction on

that. Even if he has empathy, which

he probably doesn't or would have to

dig deeper than he has ever dug.

Michael, many people would say the

trouble with this is that it is a

liberal Washington or New York

fantasies. In other words, people

like you never wanted him to win,

are upset that he has one...

Let me

clarify that. I get criticism from

the other side that I was too nice

to Trump before I got into the White

House. I have no political axe at

all to grind here. I may be one of

the few writers, and it's probably

one of the reasons I got access to

begin with, I was only interested in

Donald Trump as a character. I knew

that would be a story. I was

perfectly willing to write Donald

Trump is the unexpected success

story.

That isn't the book you read,

however.

That was not the

circumstance that I found.

And you

are now under attack, even for some

liberal mainstream newspapers for

the accuracy of this. Let me ask you

about a few things. Tony Blair was

outraged about what you said about

him trying to get a job as part of

the Middle East Quartet?

Let me rush

to this, I sat in the White House on

the couch listening, I wasn't

supposed to overhear this but they

were standing right there, with Tony

Blair and Gerald Kushner standing

not 15 feet in front of me with Tony

Blair, let's choose my words

carefully, sucking up to Gerald

Kushner.

But as he says, and I

quote, this story is a complete

fabrication literally from beginning

to end, I have never had such

conversation in the White House,

outside of the White House, with

anybody else.

So I would have to say

that Tony Blair is a complete liar.

Literally 15 feet away from me. You

are saying he is a complete liar.

In

this instance, absolutely.

One of

the things about this, I mean, I

really enjoyed it, the book, but I

was never sure whether I was reading

a very novelistic account or whether

this was good old-fashioned

journalism. There were lots of great

marks around things and I wasn't

sure whether you were there

recording or if you were putting...

Let me ask you, you have read Bob

Woodward's accounts? There was no

difference here. This is the way you

get to see what's going on inside

the White House, is you need a

writer to make some deals. Let's be

perfectly honest. And the deals are,

you will tell me what you know, you

are a close presidential aide, and I

will protect you. I won't say that I

spoke to you.

I understand the

technique, but the problem is that

as a reader you are never absolutely

sure what happened or not and that

allows a certain amount of innuendo

and in particular there has been the

innuendo about the United Nations

ambassador having an affair with

President Trump. Again, she is

outraged by this and she feels that

you have been pushing forward this

general suggestion that there was an

affair that.

There is no suggestion

in the book of that. There was a

suggestion made on a comedy show in

the US that I had suggested this. So

I can put this to rest. I don't know

who the president is having an

affair with. Do I believe the

president is having an affair? It's

Donald Trump.

But again, it's

innuendo. It's Donald Trump.

Well,

let's talk innuendo. Let's follow

that down. Here is a man whose

career and life have been about

pursuing women. He's been very open

about this. He's been in the women

pursuing business.

Beauty,

fashion... He is now in the White

House, surrounded by...

But that is

exactly the point. This man who has

had this career is now in the White

House. The White House has not

cleansed him of anything else, his

behaviour has not changed over any

detail in the White House. Do you

think it's changed over this day

tell? I don't know.

You made -- do

you think it's changed over this

detail? You made the assertion that

the ambassador was embracing this

story but she has not.

Actually, I

didn't accuse her of anything and

she hasn't been accused of anything,

certainly not by me. Certainly, she

was denying this. I will say again,

I don't know who the president is

having an affair with. I don't know

what his habits are in that regard

in the White House. If I did know,

that certainly would have been in

the book.

But you don't know that he

wasn't and you don't know if he is.

You assume that he is.

Yes, I

assume, I assume because this is

Donald Trump and I think that's an

absolutely fair assumption.

Michael

Wolff, thanks very much indeed for

talking to us.

Coming up here a little later...

The Sunday Politics

with Sarah Smith.

She will be joined by

the former Conservative

leader, Iain Duncan Smith.

And Labour MPs Frank Field

and Stella Creasy will be

discussing their party's developing

policy on Brexit.

That's the Sunday Politics

here on BBC One at 11am.

Talking of developing policies...

Ahead of a week where we are told

Jeremy Corbyn is going to change

policy and embrace a customs union

with the EU after we leave,

that potentially faces Theresa May

with a major Commons crisis,

so is this genuine convinction,

or a piece of brutal

parliamentary tactics?

Sir Keir Starmer, Labour's

Brexit Secretary, is here.

Good morning. Welcome. Can I ask

there is double what the Labour

position is on a customs union?

We

long championed being in a customs

union with the EU and the benefits

of that. Obviously is the only way

realistically to get tariff free

access. It's really important for

our manufacturing base and nobody

can answer the question can you keep

your commitment to know how border

in Northern Ireland without a

customs union. In the general

election and since we have

consistently said that the benefits

of a customs union must be

maintained, then over the summer I

laid out the transitional

arrangements of being in a customs

union and said then that it ought to

be an option on the table. We have

then had many weeks of discussion

unanimously and we have agreed to

develop our policy. Jeremy will

announce that tomorrow.

So this is,

as it were, laying to rest the last

shreds of any doubt about whether

you will be in favour of a customs

union. What kind of a customs union

do you want?

Well, the customs

arrangements at the moment are

hard-wired into the treaty. There

will have to be a new treaty. It

will do the work of the customs

union. So is our customs union, it

is what the amendments are all

saying. They will have to be an

agreement. But will it do the work

of the current customs union? Yes,

that is the intention.

So, under

your plan, after we leave the EU,

who will be in charge of foreign

trade arrangements for Britain with

the EU?

That will have to be

arranged. We will have to have a

say. We all want more trade

agreements and we are more likely to

get them if we do it jointly with

the EU ban on our own and all the

evidence suggests more likely with

the EU and the evidence suggests

that coming out of the EU and the

customs union and having a separate

effect would be much more costly.

But that would mean the EU were

still setting our trade around the

world and we can't do bold deals

with the United States or elsewhere?

Obviously we all want bold new trade

deals, and how that was done would

have to be organised within a new

trade arrangements. The question is,

are they more likely with or without

the EU, whether you do it on your

own? Liam Fox that he would have 40

trade agreements for 30 months' time

to sign. -- for 13 months' time. It

will come to a crunch because there

are various amendments in

Parliament, as you know.

When you

know it is not -- you say it is not

worth us leaving the customs union

in order to do deals with the United

States and Australia, what makes you

say that?

If you look at the

independent analysis and the

government's own analysis, they all

point in one direction, that the

benefits of us doing it on our own

are much smaller than anyone is

prepared to admit and the cost is

much higher. I don't think there is

any evidence out there, and if Liam

Fox has got some evidence, maybe he

can share that with us, I don't

think there is any evidence from a

credible source base that there is

an advantage of doing it narrowing.

In him, we have -- here, we have

obligations to our manufacturing

base, to Northern Ireland. Nobody is

saying that we can keep to the

commitment of noble hardboard in

Northern Ireland without a customs

union.

If it is not deeply

unattractive to stay tied to a

customs union once we leave?

No, the

referendum is that we must leave the

EU, it was a close result,

EU, it was a close result, 48, 52...

But there is disagreement in your

party amongst this. Here a point is

made saying it is deeply

unattractive to stay in the customs

union, including us from making

trade agreements with our five

largest export markets outside the

EU. He has lost that argument in the

Labour Party?

Barry Gardner said

that speaking largely for himself. A

lot of water has gone under the

bridge since then. We reached a

unanimous agreement regarding our

position on the customs union and

that means unanimous.

There is a

slightly menacing amendment made by

Anna Sue Brie. What will your

reaction to that be?

The Labour

Party put down amendments paving the

way for a customs union. Now these

amendments have been put up

basically saying the same thing.

Basically, crunch time is coming for

the Prime Minister.

So you will back

those amendments?

They are so close

to our own, we have to make a final

decision, but whether it is our

amendments or the cross-party

amendments, crunch time is coming

for the Prime Minister because the

majority of parliament does not back

her approach to a customs union and

the majority of Parliament needs to

be heard and it will be heard sooner

rather than later.

If you got such

an amendment through, this would

blow a massive hole straight through

Theresa May's negotiating plans and

Burton Hasbro Minister. Surely what

she will then do is tie this to a

vote of confidence and their

harrowing MPs do call an election.

How she handles this is a matter for

her. We said from the outset that

what is being negotiated is the next

20 or 30 years of our future.

Parliament ought to have a voice in

that. The Prime Minister has pushed

Parliament away and Parliament is

coming back to be heard.

This is

brutal and slightly cynical

parliamentary tactics designed to

get Theresa May out of Downing

Street and Jeremy Corbyn in, isn't

it?

Andrew, I pick every time I have

been on the programme I have

championed the customs union. I have

never suggested otherwise. It was in

our manifesto, in our position last

summer and we have developed that

unanimously. Obviously these

amendments are coming out but the

position you put to me is not

accurate.

From the other side, 80 senior

colleagues making another point, if

you are going to be in a customs

union, you have to accept a lot of

EU regulations and laws and ways of

doing things, if you do that, why

not just stayed in the single market

as well?

Do you want to be close to

the EU or distant?

We know your

answer is close.

We have always said

the benefits of the single market

must be in the final agreement and

that is an important commitment.

However you

However you arrive at that, whatever

the instrument or agreement, the

benefits have to be there. Labour is

agreed on the end state. There is an

argument about how you get there.

You could be actually in the single

market, not in the single market,

very close?

If you want to be close

or distant, we are united saying we

want to be close, there is an

argument about how we do it, but the

benefits of the single market have

to be in the final agreement, as far

as we are concerned. There are

arguments about the model. The unity

of purpose is important.

It is the

kind of thing Guy Verhofstadt told

me, what we want is an association

agreement between the UK and the EU

which includes a free trade

agreement, roughly speaking where

Labour might end up as well.

It

might be a new agreement, the

question is, how close and whether

we really get the benefits of the

single market and the customs union,

and that has been our focus

throughout. What is important is you

have not got that clarity from the

Government, different noises coming

out of the meetings last week.

Liam

Fox will be admirably clear, we will

see. All of the people in the Labour

Party, Brexit supporters, lots of

constituencies which are pro-Brexit,

Frank Field says you are breaking

faith with the core Labour pro

Brexit vote.

We have respected the

referendum outcome, we voted to

trickle out of 450 -- trigger

Article 50. We have to make choices

for the future of our country and a

customs union is really important

because we have a manufacturing base

to protect, economy and jobs to

protect. We also need to reflect the

fact it was a 52-48 split and we

have to have an approach respecting

the outcome but brings the country

together.

To conclude, in the huge

national choice between staying

close to the EU and remaining and

essentially European kind of country

on the one hand and diverging and

being a different country on the

other, use a crunch time is how far

away now?

It depends when the

amendments come up and there was the

meaningful vote in October which

will be a big moment and it has to

be meaningful and I do not think we

should accept the proposition it is

a take it or leave it vote.

Parliament has to speak on this.

Are

you pleased to see Ken Livingstone

coming back into the Labour Party?

I

have read the reports, I took a

strong view on this at the time, he

is still suspended, but I do not

know the detail than what I have

read before.

Should he stay

suspended?

It runs out in April. It

is not a decision for me, I have

plenty on my plate.

You do. Thank

you for talking to us.

For 30 years, readers

of the Daily Telegraph have

started their morning by looking

for a thumb-sized squiggle

on the front page.

It's the pocket cartoon by Matt and

this is today's, glorious as ever.

Matt Pritchett has become Britain's

favourite cartoonist.

Good philosophical question.

He is camera-shy, but we tracked him

down at his desk earlier this week.

He began by telling me why he tends

to focus on ordinary people,

rather than the famous.

Well, that was a decision

I made when I realised

I couldn't do caricatures,

so I thought I would make my jokes

about the news affecting ordinary

people and actually makes you a bit

more creative, if you have to think,

I don't want to draw Theresa May,

but I want to draw how her policies

are affecting people.

You've had an absolutely

stellar career here,

but it started almost

as an accident, is that right?

It did start as an accident.

It was the day that the Telegraph

printed the wrong date on the front

of the Telegraph and they said

it was Thursday, 25th

of February, a day early.

And the readers were so furious,

they all rang in to say,

I've had a row in the post office

and I've been to a doctor's

appointment that didn't happen,

so Max Hastings, who was the editor,

had to write a front-page

apology and they said,

we need a cartoon with this.

And I was literally just standing

there, not doing anything,

so they got me to do a cartoon.

That was my first.

Gave you a pen and that

is how it started?

Exactly, exactly.

So let's just talk a little bit

about a typical day,

you are arrive on the train,

you knock your pipe out

and you walk into the office.

I arrive about eight and read

the papers and I see what the other

cartoonists have done and if I see

a good joke by another

cartoonist, I fly into a rage.

You never steal it?

It's too late by then.

You can't, exactly.

And then I write down every subject

I could possibly think of a joke

on and it's a bit like colonic

irrigation, you have to get

the rubbish out first.

And I have this tradition that

I take six cartoons over to show

the chap in charge of page one

and it's amazing how

many times I have five

roughed ideas and think,

well, I've just got to think

of a sixth because I

always take him six.

And that is the one.

And we live in a scary and dangerous

world and very often

I find your cartoons make it less

scary for us.

So I'm thinking, for instance,

your famous cartoon during the BSE

scandal, a lot of us were really

worried about mad cows

and all the rest of it,

and you had this lovely one

of the cow sitting

beside a passenger in

a bus, and it somehow

domesticates the horror.

Well, I can't remember

who it was who said that nothing

matters very much and hardly

anything matters at all.

But if I say that to myself 50 times

a day then you do think,

actually, let's calm down,

there must be a funny side to this.

I mean, some things there

aren't a funny side to,

but most of the time,

you can sort of diffuse

the situation with the joke.

And we see again and again

big political stories,

I'm thinking of the MP expenses

scandal which gave you lots

and lots of cartoons,

lovely one of the ducks

and the plasma television.

Again, often you find you have two

people sitting in armchairs

with a TV in front of them,

chap's got his pipe, are they based

on real people at all?

It is top secret.

They were real people and I do

think about them when I'm

thinking about the news.

I think, how will they react

when they hear about MPs' expenses

or how will Brexit affect them?

It just sort of helps

to bring everything down

to the human level, really.

When I first started drawing them,

I thought they were fools, but now,

of course, a bit like owners who end

up looking like their dogs,

I have turned into this...

Sitting there with your pipe.

Now I think he's the only one

who speaks any sense.

I am obsessed by when my bin

is going to be emptied

and all the other things that

obsess him, so I know I am

turning into him now.

Again, it's about everyday life,

things that we all go through.

I'm thinking of particular cartoons

on two alcohol-free days a week,

I'm trying to do three.

Drinking does seem to be a subject

Telegraph readers care deeply

about and they don't like being told

to drink less, so I can't do enough

jokes about drinking.

What about Brexit?

Because this is immeasurably

complicated, endlessly complex,

goes on forever, and in a sense,

I guess, must be

a cartoonist's nightmare.

Well, because of the 30th

anniversary, I was going

through cartoons when I started

and we were all obsessed

about the Maastricht Treaty,

so, for me, it's been

going on since the '90s.

I would like to say to Theresa,

if she could move it on a bit,

I'm running out of jokes

about transition, so if

she could sort of...

I'm sure she will be watching.

Yes, exactly.

Are there any things

you won't make jokes about?

I try and avoid anything

where anyone's been killed.

I did do a joke after

the Charlie Hebdo massacre

because I felt, as a cartoonist,

you couldn't avoid...

Cartoonist solidarity.

Yeah, exactly.

Among the other people

who are watching, reading

the jokes in the cartoon,

the Duke of Edinburgh,

you got a letter from him

saying he was a fan,

I gather?

I was amazed.

I was thrilled and

touched and amazed.

And you don't know when you are

drawing them who is looking.

It really was a high point.

So I was very, very moved.

Matt, you have given a lot

of people a lot of pleasure

for many, many years.

Thanks very much indeed.

That was fun.

Back to Brexit.

The key Cabinet Ministers have come

to some kind of agreement,

but it's very unclear

what it really means.

The International Trade

Secretary was there,

so presumably Liam Fox knows.

He joins me now.

You know but you're not going to

tell us?

That is a fair summary. Let

me ask you about this word everyone

is talking about, diverging.

It

seems a very abstract thing. What is

it?

What is important is Britain's

freedom to act differently in the

future. If you look at Britain's

trading performance in 2005-2006, 50

6% of Britain's exports went to the

EU. That is down to 43%. The reverse

is true of the rest of the world. We

are exporting water the rest of the

world outside of Europe. If you look

at what the IMF have said, they say

90% of global growth in the next

10-50 years, outside Europe. We need

to orientate ourselves

to orientate ourselves towards the

big economies. That is not to say

the EU will not remain a very

important export market for the UK,

but we need to be free to orientate

ourselves towards areas where there

will be more trade.

To do that, we

need to do things very differently?

We need to be free to take decisions

for ourselves. There has been talk

of customs unions, as we have heard

this morning. The key thing it puts

a big frontier around and it means

we all applied the same duties to

things coming in. First of all, we

would be like to be able to alter

those, we would like to cut some

duties that the EU currently applies

to developing countries.

I

absolutely understand the ambition,

what seems to me to be borderline

dishonest is to say we can have all

of that and a generous free trade

agreement with the EU. To use Donald

Tusk's word, pure illusion.

We will

wait and see where the negotiations

take us. If you are looking what is

in our interests, we have to look at

what is in the interests of the EU.

The EU has a massive surplus with

the UK on goods, something like £100

billion in the last year. Cannot

have that free trade agreement with

the UK would mean European exporters

would be at a huge disadvantage --

to not have that free trade

agreement.

Now we are saying we want

to divert from your laws where it

suits us, stick with it where it

suits us, thank you, and they see

that as a direct and serious threat

to their way of living in creating

this union, that is why they are all

unanimously and very clearly saying,

you are not going to cherry pick, if

you try, we will keep you out of our

markets.

We will see, that is the

opinion of the commission and I

understand why, they are the

guardians of the treaties, but

whether that is what the member

states will want. We will see as we

go through what governments do. It

is a question of putting political

ideology or this prosperity of your

people first and negotiations?

The

EU is a set menu restaurant, not a

cart, it is not possible for the UK

to be aligned to the EU when it

suits and not when it doesn't,

national leader saying what they are

saying in the centre as well

saying in the centre as well -- not

a la carte.

We will make our case

and we will make our case not just

on what is good that the UK but what

we also think is good for the EU, it

does not make any sense for the EU

to tie itself up in tariffs sending

more money to the UK Exchequer than

we would be sending in the other

direction, that does not make sense

for European businesses, consumers,

so we will ultimately have to sit

down, very hard-headed, and we

understand their starting position,

we will have to

we will have to look at what is in

mutual benefit and considering the

trends in the wider global economy,

the global economy is moving away

from hard-wired harmonisation to

equivalence.

We stopped off in the

same position and over time we

diverged where it suits us and there

will have to be somebody deciding

how it works and so on, but over

time, we will be a different kind of

economy and a different kind of

society, just tell me what kind of

difference to Britain you would like

to see in ten years time.

You are

asking me to accept the assumption

that it is what we have agreed.

It

is what you have agreed.

I do not

think it was Number 10, you will see

the full context when the Prime

Minister sets it out on Friday. I

want to see the UK able to make its

own decisions that allow us to vary

what we do in times of -- in terms

of tariffs. I want us to take the

opportunities with countries like

China to look at service agreements.

The put it into context for people

watching, by 2030, China will have

220 cities of more than 1 million

people, the whole of Europe will

have 35.

The scale of the change.

Jeremy Hunt says the central common

understanding there will be areas of

industry where we agreed to align

regulations with EU regulations, the

automotive industry is an obvious

one, but it will be voluntary. We

will have the right to choose to

diverged and we will not be

accepting changes and rules because

the EU decides. But as broadly

speaking where we are?

It's a great try, the third try, but

I will not be setting out what we

have agreed. We want to be war

makers in our own country, not rule

takers. As part of the single

market, you have to take the EU's

rules -- we want to be rule makers,

not rule takers.

Jeremy Corbyn Hunt

said that after the -- Jeremy Hunt

said that after the meeting, so is

that not what was said that at the

Prime Minister will set out what was

said on Friday.

Will any arrangement

that we enter into actually

that we enter into actually honour

that commitment.

You are saying we

will have full freedom to diverge if

we want to?

I am saying we will have

full freedom to have an independent

trade policy. This debate we are

having this morning on the customs

union. We are going to leave the

customs union, I think both parties

are agreed on that. Labour say they

want to join a customs union. What

do they mean by that? Is it like for

Turkey, where they have a customs

union for goods but not other

sectors? If it to do with freedom in

certain sectors and not others?

He

has been much clearer than you have

been and above all, this is about

the kind of society we are going to

be. Do you want to be more

deregulated economy and Peter, where

we can hire and fire people more

easily?

In terms of workers' rights,

no it's not. In terms of Digital the

economy, do we need to be able to

move with that? Yes, we do. Can we

do that in the European Union? No,

we can't, because France block it.

You are being very cuddly. You have

said it is intellectually

unsustainable to say that workers'

rights should be untouchable? Do you

still believe that?

We have come to

an agreement that we will maintain

those rights and I will tell you

why, because as part of the rollover

of the EU agreements that we are

party to, those rates are entrenched

in those and we said we would

respect those as we roll them over.

Isn't this the truth, that this is

the beginning of the journey? We

have this agreement and then we see

what happened though the term. Once

we can diverged, we can diverge as

much as we like. This is the

beginning of a journey to much less

regulated Britain. That is why the

EU is so concerned, because they

think we will be a Hong Kong or a

thing apart -- a Singapore on the

northern border.

We have to stop

seeing the EU as the centre of this.

We are talking to the rest of the

world. I do not begin this debate by

saying how much of the EU do I take

with me question mark I begin the

debate by saying what of Britain can

guarantee that we can and money in

the picture so that future

generations can pay for the public

services that want.

You heard Keir

Starmer talking about Labour backing

for these motions by Tory rebels.

They have the numbers to blow a

massive hole right through this

process. What is your message to

them?

Well, as a formal whip first

of all, I am always wary about

debates, but that aside, I would say

to my colleagues, Theresa May has

kept a broad range of views on the

European union for a reason.

Because

she loses power if she doesn't.

We

sat down, we looked at the issues,

we came to an agreement we are all

happy with and I think that when the

rest of the Parliamentary party

hears on Friday as the Prime

Minister said that out, they will

hear and I hope that they will have

an open mind and I think what they

he will deal with a lot of the

reservation they have had.

Why are

you delaying this? You are delaying

it because you are going to lose on

this amendment, aren't you?

We want

to persuade our colleagues on the

merits of the argument before we

take the bill forward and we are not

going to do it on the basis of what

suits the opposition. We will do it

on the passing of a legislator...

But you can't delayed much longer?

We need to get the legislation

through because if we don't have a

deal with European Union, we were to

be able to protect British business

from dumping, for example, or

massive subsidies. We need to

protect British business. The Labour

Party who voted against this bill

will have to think twice or they

leave British business like British

Steel unprotected.

So you are saying

it is our way or no way at all?

We

have set out what we need to do to

we believe on the result of the

referendum to have control over our

borders, laws and money and those

who do not want to honour those will

need to explain to the British

people why they don't feel they have

to do so.

OK, can we talk about the

transition period? Presumably if

this new idea is turned down flat by

the European Union, there will be no

transition period either?

Again, we

go into this negotiation on the

assumption that the European Council

on March one have a negotiation on

implementation as we will have an

agreement on how we move forward. As

I said earlier, I still think that

the rational way forward is for the

EU to come to an agreement on trade

with the United Kingdom that Finau

mutual interest. I don't see why we

wouldn't do that -- that is in our

mutual interest. I don't see why we

wouldn't do that.

Will you be able

to sign trade deals with the rest of

the world during the transition

period?

Yes, we would be able to

sign and agree but not implement,

because within the transition period

we couldn't implement something.

What we would want to negotiate and

signed so that we could implement at

the end of the period itself.

So you

would have a deal with Donald

Trump's America and Australia had

all the others before the end of the

transition period. It will all be

there and you will be up to sign it

and implemented immediately we

leave?

We have got 14 working groups

working with 21 countries at the

moment. We want to take those

negotiations as far as we countering

that limitation period. Not to do so

would leave the United Kingdom

incapable of making plans for our

final Brexit position and that not a

good position to be in.

Your

colleague Ben Bradley tweeted this

after saying Jeremy Corbyn had been

involved in spy allegations. I

accept I caused upset and distress

to Jeremy Corbyn by my country and

false allegations and he has given

money which has gone to a food bank

in his constituency.

Was that the

right thing to happen? Yes, if you

say something that is untrue, you

have to say so. As somebody who has

actually won a libel case that the

High Court, it's infinitely better

not to have to go through that.

He

said that Jeremy Corbyn had betrayed

his country. Gavin Williamson, your

successor as Defence Secretary, said

that Jeremy Corbyn met foreign spies

and that is a betrayal of his

country. Is that true?

Do you agree

with him? It is perfectly legitimate

for politicians and the media to ask

questions.

I wasn't asking that. Do

you think Jeremy Corbyn betrayed

this country?

I think the Labour

left during the Cold War where

extremely unhelpful to this country.

We believe that we should see off

communism, we should see off

tyranny.

I am asking you, did he

betray his country?

I don't think I

would use the word betray. But I

certainly think the Labour left were

idiots at that time.

They Gavin

Williamson said he betrayed his

country.

Should he apologise? I

think this is part of the lively

debate we have. It's not necessarily

the word I would use but I certainly

believe that Jeremy Corbyn and

others were very useful to the

Soviet Union during the Cold War.

I

will try more time -- one more time.

Should Gavin Williamson apologised

to Jeremy Corbyn for saying he

betrayed his country?

In the broader

sense, he was undermining the

country by siding with the Soviet

Union in that argument. Luckily it

was outside of the argument not

Jeremy Corbyn's that won the day.

So

you do think he betrayed his

country?

I think the Labour left

were certainly undermining the

security of the country by their

one-sided argument for a Soviet

style communism in that period.

I'm

still not sure whether you think

Gavin Williamson should apologise

not for saying that Jeremy Corbyn

betrayed his country?

I don't

believe that is necessary to

apologise when it is very clear that

Jeremy Corbyn and his fellow

left-wingers were underlining our

security which is the point that

Gavin Williamson was making.

Yes but

no but yes but no but is how we

leave.

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

Join us at 10am when we will be

asking if so to media is out of

control, parliament looks at and

Kylie Jenner wiped off 1 billion

from Snapchat. And organ donation.

See you at 10am on BBC One.

There were plenty of stars at last

Sunday's Baftas but the one

they all applauded was the rising

star that is Sheku Kanneh-Mason.

The BBC Young Musician of the Year

wowed the Albert Hall.

His debut album is just out.

Here he is with Bach's Cello Suite

Number One in G Major.

Until next week, goodbye.