Andrew Marr talks to Liam Fox, Sir Keir Starmer, Michael Wolff and cartoonist Matt. Plus music from cellist Sheku Kanneh-Mason.
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At the end of the week when,
at last, Theresa May and her key
Cabinet Ministers sat down
at Chequers to work out
how to leave the EU.
Pictures in most of the papers show
a scene just like the end
of an Agatha Christie,
with Mrs May as Miss Marple, the EU,
of course, our podgy Belgian Poirot,
lurking somewhere outside.
But whose body - whose
political career, perhaps -
is that, lying sprawled
below the mantlepiece?
Exercising his little grey
cells, I'm joined by Dr Liam Fox,
the International Trade Secretary,
and leading Brexiteer.
What does this new
accord actually mean?
Meanwhile, we're told
Jeremy Corbyn is changing
direction on Brexit as well.
We've heard that many times before.
Sir Keir Starmer,
Labour's Shadow Brexit
Secretary, joins us too.
And I'm joined this
morning by the writer
of the global bestseller
purporting to lift the lid
on Donald Trump's White House,
Michael Wolff, author
of Fire and Fury.
And you'll probably be
familiar with this.
It's a Matt cartoon.
But who is Matt?
He rarely gives television
interviews, but I've been talking
to him after 30 years
of entertaining Telegraph readers.
And we have live music.
The best of Bach from one of
the classical world's newest stars -
Harmony and disharmony of all kinds.
Reviewing the news, the TV presenter
and campaigner, June Sarpong,
and Theresa May's former director
of communications, Katie Perrior.
First, though, the news
with Christian Fraser.
Syrian activists say government
forces carried out more air strikes
on the rebel-held area
of Eastern Ghouta last
night, in spite of a UN
Security Council resolution calling
for an immediate ceasefire.
The vote in favour of a 30-day truce
was passed unanimously.
It's hoped that an end
to fighting would allow
humanitarian aid to be brought
in and injured civilians rescued.
The International Olympic Committee
has voted to keep its ban on Russia
but says it will be lifted
if there are no further positive
tests from the Winter
Games in South Korea.
The decision means that the Russian
athletes at Pyeongchang will not be
allowed to carry their national flag
at today's closing ceremony.
Russia was stripped of its Olympic
status before the Games because of
accusations of state-sponsored
More than 80 senior Labour figures
have issued a statement
in the Observer newspaper warning
Jeremy Corbyn that he wouldn't be
able to deliver his spending
promises unless the UK stays
in the EU single market.
The Labour leader is due to make
a major speech on Brexit tomorrow.
He's expected to commit Labour
to backing membership of some
kind of customs union,
but not to remaining
in the single market.
One of Bollywood's greatest leading
ladies has died at the age of 54.
Sridevi Kapoor -
known just as Sridevi -
starred in more than 200 films
in a career spanning four decades.
She's thought to have had a heart
attack while attending
a family wedding in Dubai.
And tributes are also being paid
to the British actress Emma Chambers
who has died at the age of 53.
She was best known
for her roles in The Vicar
of Dibley and Notting Hill.
Her agent said she died
of natural causes.
That's all from me.
The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.
Back to you, Andrew.
As ever to the front pages. The
Sunday Telegraph has a Brexit story
about the SNP potentially derailing
trade deals and the England rugby
team having been derailed by
Scotland yesterday. I never watch
these games because whenever I do,
Scotland loses. I did not watch it,
Scotland won. The Sunday Times, the
story about top shop, and Pat
story about top shop, and Pat -- the
Archbishop of Canterbury. The Mail
on Sunday, help lines for heroes,
soldiers, a campaign may have been
running for a long time, a
breakthrough on that. More of the
politics inside. Where is the
Observer? A whole lot of senior
Labour figures, Neil Kinnock and
more, piling pressure on Jeremy
Corbyn, they want him to commit to
joining the single market, staying
in the single market, as well as the
customs union. Let us start, Katie
Perrior, you were at the heart of
the May operation for a long time,
big spread in the Sunday Times,
although ministers gathered around,
a very detailed briefing from Number
10 in the paper.
-- all the
ministers. A cracking long read in
the Sunday Times, great detail about
what happened, they move from room
to room in a Cluedo style, they left
their mobile phones, taken away,
they discussed Brexit and many other
things over shortbread and cups of
tea. It seems to be they got on,
brilliant briefing from Number 10,
great pictures of who is who in the
There is a fairly detailed
account of what they have now
agreed. Can we go through that?
have talked about demand for mutual
recognition, standards on goods
traded between the UK and the EU,
public commitment to make sure
standards are as high as the EU,
keeping rules and regulations
substantially similar. And what Greg
Hart has done, standing up for the
automotive centre, saying diverging
stars not protect jobs. I run
through of everyone's role in the
day. -- diverging does not protect
Over time, Britain will be
able to diverging all sorts of
different ways and there will be
some kind of mechanism not involving
the European court overseeing that,
the essence of the deal?
but the EU told us we could not
Will it be saleable?
The EU may well say, that is your
starting position, we do not like
it. We need a meaningful vote in
parliament at some point.
scrabbling around to understand the
changes, big changes on the Labour
Front page of the
Observer, the Labour alliance piles
pressure on Jeremy Corbyn over his
Brexit stance. 80 senior Labour
figures have come together to put
pressure on Jeremy Corbyn, not just
to remaining in something of a
customs union, but also to remain in
the single market.
Can I stop you
there? People get confused. The
customs union is the great ring
fence around the EU. If we
stay inside that, something like it,
we have to take EU rules?
negotiates for us. Totally.
people including Neil Kinnock
sayyid, if we are going to do that,
why not stay in the single market?
Totally. It is about the movement of
goods. We have to look at the
freedoms, but what we have to decide
is whether or not it is worth it
when we know the terms of the deal.
What that 80 senior Labour figures
are saying, Helena Kennedy, Doreen
Lawrence, Chuka Umunna, Neil
Kinnock, if Jeremy Corbyn wants to
fund his anti-austerity measures,
the only way to do it is to remain
in the single market.
political because there is an
amendment to the trade bill backed
by Anna Soubry and Tory remainers.
The question is, if the Labour Party
gets alongside that, Theresa May can
potentially lose her majority on
absolutely crucial question of the
Absolutely. They have pushed
those votes to the back end of the
spring, the select committee are
saying, we might have a vote
earlier, this is looking like it
will not go away.
You cannot coexist
down the road forever because we
have that actual negotiations that
McCready cannot kick this.
Sunday Times, spinning plates, the
more you pick it down the road,
hopefully we will be in a place,
concessions from the EU, when some
Wait and see. Other
really important story today, the
horror going on again in Syria, we
thought things had calmed down, much
worse over the last two weeks.
have the ceasefire agreed by the UN,
Russia does not look like it has
vetoed it, so it looks like it will
go ahead, but whenever there is a
ceasefire, there is heavy bombing
beforehand, they try to get as much
done before abiding by the
ceasefire. Shocking scenes, we have
been here before. At what point do
we feel seminars can be done,
intervene? Parliamentarians feel
helpless, we feel helpless, and
we're not quite sure about giving
money to that aid charities...
Absolutely. This is the penalty of
not intervening at the beginning. We
intervened in a ruck and to many
people's views, that went wrong --
we intervened in Iraq. We are
As Johnny Mercer
says, at least force yourself to
watch the pictures, if you cannot do
anything, do not turn a blind eye.
They cannot be sure Assad will keep
to it either.
We have been talking a
lot about the scandals in that aid
sector, another one this morning in
the Sunday Times.
This is in the
Sunday Times, another one, advisory
group to Mines, hit by a terrible
story, many of the senior employees
used prostitutes and two stories in
the DRC were members had affairs
with local women and one apparently
impregnated one of the women and
abandon her. A charity that Prince
Harry supports, so these stories are
not going away.
Spreading in all
directions. Katie, another of the
really big stories of the moment,
the University and College strike,
unprecedented, students are
They are consumers,
paying over £9,000 in fees, and many
more in living costs, and they are
demanding a higher standard of
return on investment. There is no
letup in the fact these lecturers
will continue to strike, they are
striking over pensions, they will
lose £10,000 a year under the new
A lot of these people, the
pensions would not have been that
big in the first place, they are not
asked or negotiated with, just told,
you are losing this money.
the attention is on vice
chancellors, but it covers all
lecturers and many are on much lower
wages. The students are quite big
numbers supporting lecturers on this
but at the same time, saying, if we
are not having lectures, we want a
So much to talk about.
Picking up a storm at the Brit
A new day in
politics when the Prime Minister is
having to respond to the grime
artist. He called rout over Grenfell
, but then he backed a petition the
next day to have it debated in the
Commons and the petition overnight
received over 137,000 signatures,
even more than that now, and it is
wonderful to see someone like him
using his platform for a purpose and
speaking truth to power.
Theresa May was not responsible for
she is responsible for
dealing with it. And that is why it
is right the young people are
holding her to account.
Let me ask
you the new world of Number 10 these
days, back in the day, an MP put
down a question, the Prime Minister
would eventually be obliged to
respond, now Stormzy says something
on the Brit awards and the Prime
Minister has to respond.
It is not
just this, it is the way forward,
lots of MPs are saying it is an open
Do you think your
successor would have to say, excuse
me, let me tell you about someone
There are always
those scenarios! You see something
on Twitter, you have to describe to
MPs who they are.
Is she a big grime
I doubt it, but Matt Hancock
about Winston Churchill in the
Telegraph. We thought he never
It seems that is not
the case. Who knew that? Apparently
he had an affair with a lady who was
the great aunt of Carla Levine and
he painted pictures of her.
genuinely new, something none of us
knew before. A very sad story, we
will have to end on this, an
extraordinary actress who we all
remember, very compelling and
unusual face in The Vicar of Dibley
and many other things, Four Weddings
And A Funeral.
Died at 53, such a
young age, many celebrities have
said she lit up the screen and she
was very much someone who was warm
and genuine and kind. I think she
will be really missed within that
community. But we can always watch
reruns and I always think... It is a
sad thing to lose someone, but the
gift that keeps on giving, to watch
So unexpected and shocking.
Gorgeous goofy look, representing
the goofy in all of us.
The role was
made for her, much missed.
both very much indeed.
And so to the weather.
Beautiful sunshine in the south,
but a huge wave of icy
air from the Continent.
I thought we'd voted
to stop that happening.
Over to Philip Avery
in the weather studio.
Good morning. I will leave the
political forecast to you.
We are linked to the continent for
the coming few days because it is
going to keep it very cool, although
today mostly dry with temperatures
between one and 8 degrees depending
on where you are. Tonight, a very
cold night in prospect and the first
signs of some wintry showers falling
into a cold start widely across the
British Isles on Monday morning. It
will feel much colder than the
weekend wherever you are stepping
out of the door first up. Those
wintry showers to be had there, like
at this stage I would have thought
across eastern areas, and notice how
already those temperatures have
dipped away. And then, Monday
evening into Tuesday, we think a
more organised area of snow leaving
several centimetres in its wake will
gradually drag its way down and
across the British Isles. The signs
of things to come here. Feeling
much, much colder. I will show you
the feels like. This will be ramped
up into the middle part of the week,
as indeed will be those wintry
showers. Andrew, winter is coming
back with a vengeance.
showers. Andrew, winter is coming
back with a vengeance.
It certainly is.
When Michael Wolff's controversial
book about Donald Trump
was published in the US,
it so angered the president
that he called the author
a liar and a total loser.
Among other things, Fire and Fury
suggested that Trump was devastated
when he won the election,
that all his senior staffers believe
he's unfit to be president,
and that the Trump campaigns links
to Russia were, in Steve
Bannon's view, treasonous.
Since publication, Michael Wolff's
own reputation has come under fire
while sales of his book continue
to soar, and he joins me now.
Let me start, welcome, by asking you
Let me start, welcome, by asking you
about your access. Did you get to
talk to the president once he had
become president Costa I spent about
three hours in one-on-one
conversations with the president
over the course of the campaign, the
transition and in the White House,
yes. And I read an account of you
being able to sit on a sofa just
outside the Oval Office while people
were coming and going for hours and
Is that true? That is true.
So you had very good access. Why
would they give someone like you,
not a natural prompt supporter, such
good access? -- not a natural Donald
Trump supporter, such good access?
don't really know the answer to that
but I would guess that they are
totally incompetent. They don't
really know what they are doing, it
is the White House in chaos, so I
was able to slip in. Beyond that,
the president and I have got on in
In the past. Uate total
Now I am a total loser.
Before that, I was the best, the
But to be clear, you spoke
to him in the White House?
For those who don't know the
book, the overall message is that
President Trump is not fit to be the
It is not my message, I
was very clear about that. It is the
people around him, his closest
advisers who have that message.
we have got the terrible shooting
and all these people coming to him
on the street, is he capable of
having empathy for them, to change
policy on guns, or example?
think you can change policy on guns
in America because his base, that is
arguably the most important issue
for his base. There is no
possibility under the political son
that he can change direction on
that. Even if he has empathy, which
he probably doesn't or would have to
dig deeper than he has ever dug.
Michael, many people would say the
trouble with this is that it is a
liberal Washington or New York
fantasies. In other words, people
like you never wanted him to win,
are upset that he has one...
clarify that. I get criticism from
the other side that I was too nice
to Trump before I got into the White
House. I have no political axe at
all to grind here. I may be one of
the few writers, and it's probably
one of the reasons I got access to
begin with, I was only interested in
Donald Trump as a character. I knew
that would be a story. I was
perfectly willing to write Donald
Trump is the unexpected success
That isn't the book you read,
That was not the
circumstance that I found.
are now under attack, even for some
liberal mainstream newspapers for
the accuracy of this. Let me ask you
about a few things. Tony Blair was
outraged about what you said about
him trying to get a job as part of
the Middle East Quartet?
Let me rush
to this, I sat in the White House on
the couch listening, I wasn't
supposed to overhear this but they
were standing right there, with Tony
Blair and Gerald Kushner standing
not 15 feet in front of me with Tony
Blair, let's choose my words
carefully, sucking up to Gerald
But as he says, and I
quote, this story is a complete
fabrication literally from beginning
to end, I have never had such
conversation in the White House,
outside of the White House, with
So I would have to say
that Tony Blair is a complete liar.
Literally 15 feet away from me. You
are saying he is a complete liar.
this instance, absolutely.
the things about this, I mean, I
really enjoyed it, the book, but I
was never sure whether I was reading
a very novelistic account or whether
this was good old-fashioned
journalism. There were lots of great
marks around things and I wasn't
sure whether you were there
recording or if you were putting...
Let me ask you, you have read Bob
Woodward's accounts? There was no
difference here. This is the way you
get to see what's going on inside
the White House, is you need a
writer to make some deals. Let's be
perfectly honest. And the deals are,
you will tell me what you know, you
are a close presidential aide, and I
will protect you. I won't say that I
spoke to you.
I understand the
technique, but the problem is that
as a reader you are never absolutely
sure what happened or not and that
allows a certain amount of innuendo
and in particular there has been the
innuendo about the United Nations
ambassador having an affair with
President Trump. Again, she is
outraged by this and she feels that
you have been pushing forward this
general suggestion that there was an
There is no suggestion
in the book of that. There was a
suggestion made on a comedy show in
the US that I had suggested this. So
I can put this to rest. I don't know
who the president is having an
affair with. Do I believe the
president is having an affair? It's
But again, it's
innuendo. It's Donald Trump.
let's talk innuendo. Let's follow
that down. Here is a man whose
career and life have been about
pursuing women. He's been very open
about this. He's been in the women
fashion... He is now in the White
House, surrounded by...
But that is
exactly the point. This man who has
had this career is now in the White
House. The White House has not
cleansed him of anything else, his
behaviour has not changed over any
detail in the White House. Do you
think it's changed over this day
tell? I don't know.
You made -- do
you think it's changed over this
detail? You made the assertion that
the ambassador was embracing this
story but she has not.
didn't accuse her of anything and
she hasn't been accused of anything,
certainly not by me. Certainly, she
was denying this. I will say again,
I don't know who the president is
having an affair with. I don't know
what his habits are in that regard
in the White House. If I did know,
that certainly would have been in
But you don't know that he
wasn't and you don't know if he is.
You assume that he is.
assume, I assume because this is
Donald Trump and I think that's an
absolutely fair assumption.
Wolff, thanks very much indeed for
talking to us.
Coming up here a little later...
The Sunday Politics
with Sarah Smith.
She will be joined by
the former Conservative
leader, Iain Duncan Smith.
And Labour MPs Frank Field
and Stella Creasy will be
discussing their party's developing
policy on Brexit.
That's the Sunday Politics
here on BBC One at 11am.
Talking of developing policies...
Ahead of a week where we are told
Jeremy Corbyn is going to change
policy and embrace a customs union
with the EU after we leave,
that potentially faces Theresa May
with a major Commons crisis,
so is this genuine convinction,
or a piece of brutal
Sir Keir Starmer, Labour's
Brexit Secretary, is here.
Good morning. Welcome. Can I ask
there is double what the Labour
position is on a customs union?
long championed being in a customs
union with the EU and the benefits
of that. Obviously is the only way
realistically to get tariff free
access. It's really important for
our manufacturing base and nobody
can answer the question can you keep
your commitment to know how border
in Northern Ireland without a
customs union. In the general
election and since we have
consistently said that the benefits
of a customs union must be
maintained, then over the summer I
laid out the transitional
arrangements of being in a customs
union and said then that it ought to
be an option on the table. We have
then had many weeks of discussion
unanimously and we have agreed to
develop our policy. Jeremy will
announce that tomorrow.
So this is,
as it were, laying to rest the last
shreds of any doubt about whether
you will be in favour of a customs
union. What kind of a customs union
do you want?
Well, the customs
arrangements at the moment are
hard-wired into the treaty. There
will have to be a new treaty. It
will do the work of the customs
union. So is our customs union, it
is what the amendments are all
saying. They will have to be an
agreement. But will it do the work
of the current customs union? Yes,
that is the intention.
your plan, after we leave the EU,
who will be in charge of foreign
trade arrangements for Britain with
That will have to be
arranged. We will have to have a
say. We all want more trade
agreements and we are more likely to
get them if we do it jointly with
the EU ban on our own and all the
evidence suggests more likely with
the EU and the evidence suggests
that coming out of the EU and the
customs union and having a separate
effect would be much more costly.
But that would mean the EU were
still setting our trade around the
world and we can't do bold deals
with the United States or elsewhere?
Obviously we all want bold new trade
deals, and how that was done would
have to be organised within a new
trade arrangements. The question is,
are they more likely with or without
the EU, whether you do it on your
own? Liam Fox that he would have 40
trade agreements for 30 months' time
to sign. -- for 13 months' time. It
will come to a crunch because there
are various amendments in
Parliament, as you know.
know it is not -- you say it is not
worth us leaving the customs union
in order to do deals with the United
States and Australia, what makes you
If you look at the
independent analysis and the
government's own analysis, they all
point in one direction, that the
benefits of us doing it on our own
are much smaller than anyone is
prepared to admit and the cost is
much higher. I don't think there is
any evidence out there, and if Liam
Fox has got some evidence, maybe he
can share that with us, I don't
think there is any evidence from a
credible source base that there is
an advantage of doing it narrowing.
In him, we have -- here, we have
obligations to our manufacturing
base, to Northern Ireland. Nobody is
saying that we can keep to the
commitment of noble hardboard in
Northern Ireland without a customs
If it is not deeply
unattractive to stay tied to a
customs union once we leave?
referendum is that we must leave the
EU, it was a close result,
EU, it was a close result, 48, 52...
But there is disagreement in your
party amongst this. Here a point is
made saying it is deeply
unattractive to stay in the customs
union, including us from making
trade agreements with our five
largest export markets outside the
EU. He has lost that argument in the
Barry Gardner said
that speaking largely for himself. A
lot of water has gone under the
bridge since then. We reached a
unanimous agreement regarding our
position on the customs union and
that means unanimous.
There is a
slightly menacing amendment made by
Anna Sue Brie. What will your
reaction to that be?
Party put down amendments paving the
way for a customs union. Now these
amendments have been put up
basically saying the same thing.
Basically, crunch time is coming for
the Prime Minister.
So you will back
They are so close
to our own, we have to make a final
decision, but whether it is our
amendments or the cross-party
amendments, crunch time is coming
for the Prime Minister because the
majority of parliament does not back
her approach to a customs union and
the majority of Parliament needs to
be heard and it will be heard sooner
rather than later.
If you got such
an amendment through, this would
blow a massive hole straight through
Theresa May's negotiating plans and
Burton Hasbro Minister. Surely what
she will then do is tie this to a
vote of confidence and their
harrowing MPs do call an election.
How she handles this is a matter for
her. We said from the outset that
what is being negotiated is the next
20 or 30 years of our future.
Parliament ought to have a voice in
that. The Prime Minister has pushed
Parliament away and Parliament is
coming back to be heard.
brutal and slightly cynical
parliamentary tactics designed to
get Theresa May out of Downing
Street and Jeremy Corbyn in, isn't
Andrew, I pick every time I have
been on the programme I have
championed the customs union. I have
never suggested otherwise. It was in
our manifesto, in our position last
summer and we have developed that
unanimously. Obviously these
amendments are coming out but the
position you put to me is not
From the other side, 80 senior
colleagues making another point, if
you are going to be in a customs
union, you have to accept a lot of
EU regulations and laws and ways of
doing things, if you do that, why
not just stayed in the single market
Do you want to be close to
the EU or distant?
We know your
answer is close.
We have always said
the benefits of the single market
must be in the final agreement and
that is an important commitment.
However you arrive at that, whatever
the instrument or agreement, the
benefits have to be there. Labour is
agreed on the end state. There is an
argument about how you get there.
You could be actually in the single
market, not in the single market,
If you want to be close
or distant, we are united saying we
want to be close, there is an
argument about how we do it, but the
benefits of the single market have
to be in the final agreement, as far
as we are concerned. There are
arguments about the model. The unity
of purpose is important.
It is the
kind of thing Guy Verhofstadt told
me, what we want is an association
agreement between the UK and the EU
which includes a free trade
agreement, roughly speaking where
Labour might end up as well.
might be a new agreement, the
question is, how close and whether
we really get the benefits of the
single market and the customs union,
and that has been our focus
throughout. What is important is you
have not got that clarity from the
Government, different noises coming
out of the meetings last week.
Fox will be admirably clear, we will
see. All of the people in the Labour
Party, Brexit supporters, lots of
constituencies which are pro-Brexit,
Frank Field says you are breaking
faith with the core Labour pro
We have respected the
referendum outcome, we voted to
trickle out of 450 -- trigger
Article 50. We have to make choices
for the future of our country and a
customs union is really important
because we have a manufacturing base
to protect, economy and jobs to
protect. We also need to reflect the
fact it was a 52-48 split and we
have to have an approach respecting
the outcome but brings the country
To conclude, in the huge
national choice between staying
close to the EU and remaining and
essentially European kind of country
on the one hand and diverging and
being a different country on the
other, use a crunch time is how far
It depends when the
amendments come up and there was the
meaningful vote in October which
will be a big moment and it has to
be meaningful and I do not think we
should accept the proposition it is
a take it or leave it vote.
Parliament has to speak on this.
you pleased to see Ken Livingstone
coming back into the Labour Party?
have read the reports, I took a
strong view on this at the time, he
is still suspended, but I do not
know the detail than what I have
Should he stay
It runs out in April. It
is not a decision for me, I have
plenty on my plate.
You do. Thank
you for talking to us.
For 30 years, readers
of the Daily Telegraph have
started their morning by looking
for a thumb-sized squiggle
on the front page.
It's the pocket cartoon by Matt and
this is today's, glorious as ever.
Matt Pritchett has become Britain's
Good philosophical question.
He is camera-shy, but we tracked him
down at his desk earlier this week.
He began by telling me why he tends
to focus on ordinary people,
rather than the famous.
Well, that was a decision
I made when I realised
I couldn't do caricatures,
so I thought I would make my jokes
about the news affecting ordinary
people and actually makes you a bit
more creative, if you have to think,
I don't want to draw Theresa May,
but I want to draw how her policies
are affecting people.
You've had an absolutely
stellar career here,
but it started almost
as an accident, is that right?
It did start as an accident.
It was the day that the Telegraph
printed the wrong date on the front
of the Telegraph and they said
it was Thursday, 25th
of February, a day early.
And the readers were so furious,
they all rang in to say,
I've had a row in the post office
and I've been to a doctor's
appointment that didn't happen,
so Max Hastings, who was the editor,
had to write a front-page
apology and they said,
we need a cartoon with this.
And I was literally just standing
there, not doing anything,
so they got me to do a cartoon.
That was my first.
Gave you a pen and that
is how it started?
So let's just talk a little bit
about a typical day,
you are arrive on the train,
you knock your pipe out
and you walk into the office.
I arrive about eight and read
the papers and I see what the other
cartoonists have done and if I see
a good joke by another
cartoonist, I fly into a rage.
You never steal it?
It's too late by then.
You can't, exactly.
And then I write down every subject
I could possibly think of a joke
on and it's a bit like colonic
irrigation, you have to get
the rubbish out first.
And I have this tradition that
I take six cartoons over to show
the chap in charge of page one
and it's amazing how
many times I have five
roughed ideas and think,
well, I've just got to think
of a sixth because I
always take him six.
And that is the one.
And we live in a scary and dangerous
world and very often
I find your cartoons make it less
scary for us.
So I'm thinking, for instance,
your famous cartoon during the BSE
scandal, a lot of us were really
worried about mad cows
and all the rest of it,
and you had this lovely one
of the cow sitting
beside a passenger in
a bus, and it somehow
domesticates the horror.
Well, I can't remember
who it was who said that nothing
matters very much and hardly
anything matters at all.
But if I say that to myself 50 times
a day then you do think,
actually, let's calm down,
there must be a funny side to this.
I mean, some things there
aren't a funny side to,
but most of the time,
you can sort of diffuse
the situation with the joke.
And we see again and again
big political stories,
I'm thinking of the MP expenses
scandal which gave you lots
and lots of cartoons,
lovely one of the ducks
and the plasma television.
Again, often you find you have two
people sitting in armchairs
with a TV in front of them,
chap's got his pipe, are they based
on real people at all?
It is top secret.
They were real people and I do
think about them when I'm
thinking about the news.
I think, how will they react
when they hear about MPs' expenses
or how will Brexit affect them?
It just sort of helps
to bring everything down
to the human level, really.
When I first started drawing them,
I thought they were fools, but now,
of course, a bit like owners who end
up looking like their dogs,
I have turned into this...
Sitting there with your pipe.
Now I think he's the only one
who speaks any sense.
I am obsessed by when my bin
is going to be emptied
and all the other things that
obsess him, so I know I am
turning into him now.
Again, it's about everyday life,
things that we all go through.
I'm thinking of particular cartoons
on two alcohol-free days a week,
I'm trying to do three.
Drinking does seem to be a subject
Telegraph readers care deeply
about and they don't like being told
to drink less, so I can't do enough
jokes about drinking.
What about Brexit?
Because this is immeasurably
complicated, endlessly complex,
goes on forever, and in a sense,
I guess, must be
a cartoonist's nightmare.
Well, because of the 30th
anniversary, I was going
through cartoons when I started
and we were all obsessed
about the Maastricht Treaty,
so, for me, it's been
going on since the '90s.
I would like to say to Theresa,
if she could move it on a bit,
I'm running out of jokes
about transition, so if
she could sort of...
I'm sure she will be watching.
Are there any things
you won't make jokes about?
I try and avoid anything
where anyone's been killed.
I did do a joke after
the Charlie Hebdo massacre
because I felt, as a cartoonist,
you couldn't avoid...
Among the other people
who are watching, reading
the jokes in the cartoon,
the Duke of Edinburgh,
you got a letter from him
saying he was a fan,
I was amazed.
I was thrilled and
touched and amazed.
And you don't know when you are
drawing them who is looking.
It really was a high point.
So I was very, very moved.
Matt, you have given a lot
of people a lot of pleasure
for many, many years.
Thanks very much indeed.
That was fun.
Back to Brexit.
The key Cabinet Ministers have come
to some kind of agreement,
but it's very unclear
what it really means.
The International Trade
Secretary was there,
so presumably Liam Fox knows.
He joins me now.
You know but you're not going to
That is a fair summary. Let
me ask you about this word everyone
is talking about, diverging.
seems a very abstract thing. What is
What is important is Britain's
freedom to act differently in the
future. If you look at Britain's
trading performance in 2005-2006, 50
6% of Britain's exports went to the
EU. That is down to 43%. The reverse
is true of the rest of the world. We
are exporting water the rest of the
world outside of Europe. If you look
at what the IMF have said, they say
90% of global growth in the next
10-50 years, outside Europe. We need
to orientate ourselves
to orientate ourselves towards the
big economies. That is not to say
the EU will not remain a very
important export market for the UK,
but we need to be free to orientate
ourselves towards areas where there
will be more trade.
To do that, we
need to do things very differently?
We need to be free to take decisions
for ourselves. There has been talk
of customs unions, as we have heard
this morning. The key thing it puts
a big frontier around and it means
we all applied the same duties to
things coming in. First of all, we
would be like to be able to alter
those, we would like to cut some
duties that the EU currently applies
to developing countries.
absolutely understand the ambition,
what seems to me to be borderline
dishonest is to say we can have all
of that and a generous free trade
agreement with the EU. To use Donald
Tusk's word, pure illusion.
wait and see where the negotiations
take us. If you are looking what is
in our interests, we have to look at
what is in the interests of the EU.
The EU has a massive surplus with
the UK on goods, something like £100
billion in the last year. Cannot
have that free trade agreement with
the UK would mean European exporters
would be at a huge disadvantage --
to not have that free trade
Now we are saying we want
to divert from your laws where it
suits us, stick with it where it
suits us, thank you, and they see
that as a direct and serious threat
to their way of living in creating
this union, that is why they are all
unanimously and very clearly saying,
you are not going to cherry pick, if
you try, we will keep you out of our
We will see, that is the
opinion of the commission and I
understand why, they are the
guardians of the treaties, but
whether that is what the member
states will want. We will see as we
go through what governments do. It
is a question of putting political
ideology or this prosperity of your
people first and negotiations?
EU is a set menu restaurant, not a
cart, it is not possible for the UK
to be aligned to the EU when it
suits and not when it doesn't,
national leader saying what they are
saying in the centre as well
saying in the centre as well -- not
a la carte.
We will make our case
and we will make our case not just
on what is good that the UK but what
we also think is good for the EU, it
does not make any sense for the EU
to tie itself up in tariffs sending
more money to the UK Exchequer than
we would be sending in the other
direction, that does not make sense
for European businesses, consumers,
so we will ultimately have to sit
down, very hard-headed, and we
understand their starting position,
we will have to
we will have to look at what is in
mutual benefit and considering the
trends in the wider global economy,
the global economy is moving away
from hard-wired harmonisation to
We stopped off in the
same position and over time we
diverged where it suits us and there
will have to be somebody deciding
how it works and so on, but over
time, we will be a different kind of
economy and a different kind of
society, just tell me what kind of
difference to Britain you would like
to see in ten years time.
asking me to accept the assumption
that it is what we have agreed.
is what you have agreed.
I do not
think it was Number 10, you will see
the full context when the Prime
Minister sets it out on Friday. I
want to see the UK able to make its
own decisions that allow us to vary
what we do in times of -- in terms
of tariffs. I want us to take the
opportunities with countries like
China to look at service agreements.
The put it into context for people
watching, by 2030, China will have
220 cities of more than 1 million
people, the whole of Europe will
The scale of the change.
Jeremy Hunt says the central common
understanding there will be areas of
industry where we agreed to align
regulations with EU regulations, the
automotive industry is an obvious
one, but it will be voluntary. We
will have the right to choose to
diverged and we will not be
accepting changes and rules because
the EU decides. But as broadly
speaking where we are?
It's a great try, the third try, but
I will not be setting out what we
have agreed. We want to be war
makers in our own country, not rule
takers. As part of the single
market, you have to take the EU's
rules -- we want to be rule makers,
not rule takers.
Jeremy Corbyn Hunt
said that after the -- Jeremy Hunt
said that after the meeting, so is
that not what was said that at the
Prime Minister will set out what was
said on Friday.
Will any arrangement
that we enter into actually
that we enter into actually honour
You are saying we
will have full freedom to diverge if
we want to?
I am saying we will have
full freedom to have an independent
trade policy. This debate we are
having this morning on the customs
union. We are going to leave the
customs union, I think both parties
are agreed on that. Labour say they
want to join a customs union. What
do they mean by that? Is it like for
Turkey, where they have a customs
union for goods but not other
sectors? If it to do with freedom in
certain sectors and not others?
has been much clearer than you have
been and above all, this is about
the kind of society we are going to
be. Do you want to be more
deregulated economy and Peter, where
we can hire and fire people more
In terms of workers' rights,
no it's not. In terms of Digital the
economy, do we need to be able to
move with that? Yes, we do. Can we
do that in the European Union? No,
we can't, because France block it.
You are being very cuddly. You have
said it is intellectually
unsustainable to say that workers'
rights should be untouchable? Do you
still believe that?
We have come to
an agreement that we will maintain
those rights and I will tell you
why, because as part of the rollover
of the EU agreements that we are
party to, those rates are entrenched
in those and we said we would
respect those as we roll them over.
Isn't this the truth, that this is
the beginning of the journey? We
have this agreement and then we see
what happened though the term. Once
we can diverged, we can diverge as
much as we like. This is the
beginning of a journey to much less
regulated Britain. That is why the
EU is so concerned, because they
think we will be a Hong Kong or a
thing apart -- a Singapore on the
We have to stop
seeing the EU as the centre of this.
We are talking to the rest of the
world. I do not begin this debate by
saying how much of the EU do I take
with me question mark I begin the
debate by saying what of Britain can
guarantee that we can and money in
the picture so that future
generations can pay for the public
services that want.
You heard Keir
Starmer talking about Labour backing
for these motions by Tory rebels.
They have the numbers to blow a
massive hole right through this
process. What is your message to
Well, as a formal whip first
of all, I am always wary about
debates, but that aside, I would say
to my colleagues, Theresa May has
kept a broad range of views on the
European union for a reason.
she loses power if she doesn't.
sat down, we looked at the issues,
we came to an agreement we are all
happy with and I think that when the
rest of the Parliamentary party
hears on Friday as the Prime
Minister said that out, they will
hear and I hope that they will have
an open mind and I think what they
he will deal with a lot of the
reservation they have had.
you delaying this? You are delaying
it because you are going to lose on
this amendment, aren't you?
to persuade our colleagues on the
merits of the argument before we
take the bill forward and we are not
going to do it on the basis of what
suits the opposition. We will do it
on the passing of a legislator...
But you can't delayed much longer?
We need to get the legislation
through because if we don't have a
deal with European Union, we were to
be able to protect British business
from dumping, for example, or
massive subsidies. We need to
protect British business. The Labour
Party who voted against this bill
will have to think twice or they
leave British business like British
So you are saying
it is our way or no way at all?
have set out what we need to do to
we believe on the result of the
referendum to have control over our
borders, laws and money and those
who do not want to honour those will
need to explain to the British
people why they don't feel they have
to do so.
OK, can we talk about the
transition period? Presumably if
this new idea is turned down flat by
the European Union, there will be no
transition period either?
go into this negotiation on the
assumption that the European Council
on March one have a negotiation on
implementation as we will have an
agreement on how we move forward. As
I said earlier, I still think that
the rational way forward is for the
EU to come to an agreement on trade
with the United Kingdom that Finau
mutual interest. I don't see why we
wouldn't do that -- that is in our
mutual interest. I don't see why we
wouldn't do that.
Will you be able
to sign trade deals with the rest of
the world during the transition
Yes, we would be able to
sign and agree but not implement,
because within the transition period
we couldn't implement something.
What we would want to negotiate and
signed so that we could implement at
the end of the period itself.
would have a deal with Donald
Trump's America and Australia had
all the others before the end of the
transition period. It will all be
there and you will be up to sign it
and implemented immediately we
We have got 14 working groups
working with 21 countries at the
moment. We want to take those
negotiations as far as we countering
that limitation period. Not to do so
would leave the United Kingdom
incapable of making plans for our
final Brexit position and that not a
good position to be in.
colleague Ben Bradley tweeted this
after saying Jeremy Corbyn had been
involved in spy allegations. I
accept I caused upset and distress
to Jeremy Corbyn by my country and
false allegations and he has given
money which has gone to a food bank
in his constituency.
Was that the
right thing to happen? Yes, if you
say something that is untrue, you
have to say so. As somebody who has
actually won a libel case that the
High Court, it's infinitely better
not to have to go through that.
said that Jeremy Corbyn had betrayed
his country. Gavin Williamson, your
successor as Defence Secretary, said
that Jeremy Corbyn met foreign spies
and that is a betrayal of his
country. Is that true?
Do you agree
with him? It is perfectly legitimate
for politicians and the media to ask
I wasn't asking that. Do
you think Jeremy Corbyn betrayed
I think the Labour
left during the Cold War where
extremely unhelpful to this country.
We believe that we should see off
communism, we should see off
I am asking you, did he
betray his country?
I don't think I
would use the word betray. But I
certainly think the Labour left were
idiots at that time.
Williamson said he betrayed his
Should he apologise? I
think this is part of the lively
debate we have. It's not necessarily
the word I would use but I certainly
believe that Jeremy Corbyn and
others were very useful to the
Soviet Union during the Cold War.
will try more time -- one more time.
Should Gavin Williamson apologised
to Jeremy Corbyn for saying he
betrayed his country?
In the broader
sense, he was undermining the
country by siding with the Soviet
Union in that argument. Luckily it
was outside of the argument not
Jeremy Corbyn's that won the day.
you do think he betrayed his
I think the Labour left
were certainly undermining the
security of the country by their
one-sided argument for a Soviet
style communism in that period.
still not sure whether you think
Gavin Williamson should apologise
not for saying that Jeremy Corbyn
betrayed his country?
believe that is necessary to
apologise when it is very clear that
Jeremy Corbyn and his fellow
left-wingers were underlining our
security which is the point that
Gavin Williamson was making.
no but yes but no but is how we
Now a look at what's coming up
straight after this programme.
Join us at 10am when we will be
asking if so to media is out of
control, parliament looks at and
Kylie Jenner wiped off 1 billion
from Snapchat. And organ donation.
See you at 10am on BBC One.
There were plenty of stars at last
Sunday's Baftas but the one
they all applauded was the rising
star that is Sheku Kanneh-Mason.
The BBC Young Musician of the Year
wowed the Albert Hall.
His debut album is just out.
Here he is with Bach's Cello Suite
Number One in G Major.
Until next week, goodbye.
Andrew Marr talks to international trade secretary Liam Fox, Shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer, author Michael Wolff and cartoonist Matt.
The newspapers are reviewed by Amanda Platell and June Sarpong. Plus music from cellist Sheku Kanneh-Mason.