25/02/2018 The Andrew Marr Show


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS


25/02/2018

Andrew Marr talks to Liam Fox, Sir Keir Starmer, Michael Wolff and cartoonist Matt. Plus music from cellist Sheku Kanneh-Mason.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 25/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning.

0:00:050:00:09

At the end of the week when,

at last, Theresa May and her key

0:00:090:00:13

Cabinet Ministers sat down

at Chequers to work out

0:00:130:00:15

how to leave the EU.

0:00:150:00:19

Pictures in most of the papers show

a scene just like the end

0:00:190:00:23

of an Agatha Christie,

with Mrs May as Miss Marple, the EU,

0:00:230:00:28

of course, our podgy Belgian Poirot,

lurking somewhere outside.

0:00:280:00:31

But whose body - whose

political career, perhaps -

0:00:310:00:34

is that, lying sprawled

below the mantlepiece?

0:00:340:00:42

Exercising his little grey

cells, I'm joined by Dr Liam Fox,

0:00:540:00:57

the International Trade Secretary,

and leading Brexiteer.

0:00:570:01:00

What does this new

accord actually mean?

0:01:000:01:05

Meanwhile, we're told

Jeremy Corbyn is changing

0:01:050:01:07

direction on Brexit as well.

0:01:070:01:08

We've heard that many times before.

0:01:080:01:10

Sir Keir Starmer,

Labour's Shadow Brexit

0:01:100:01:11

Secretary, joins us too.

0:01:110:01:18

And I'm joined this

morning by the writer

0:01:180:01:21

of the global bestseller

purporting to lift the lid

0:01:210:01:24

on Donald Trump's White House,

Michael Wolff, author

0:01:240:01:26

of Fire and Fury.

0:01:260:01:28

And you'll probably be

familiar with this.

0:01:280:01:30

It's a Matt cartoon.

0:01:300:01:31

But who is Matt?

0:01:310:01:36

He rarely gives television

interviews, but I've been talking

0:01:360:01:38

to him after 30 years

of entertaining Telegraph readers.

0:01:380:01:40

And we have live music.

0:01:400:01:43

The best of Bach from one of

the classical world's newest stars -

0:01:430:01:46

Sheku Kanneh-Mason.

0:01:460:01:54

Harmony and disharmony of all kinds.

0:02:010:02:06

Reviewing the news, the TV presenter

0:02:060:02:07

and campaigner, June Sarpong,

and Theresa May's former director

0:02:070:02:10

of communications, Katie Perrior.

0:02:100:02:11

First, though, the news

with Christian Fraser.

0:02:110:02:12

Good morning.

0:02:120:02:13

Syrian activists say government

forces carried out more air strikes

0:02:130:02:16

on the rebel-held area

of Eastern Ghouta last

0:02:160:02:18

night, in spite of a UN

Security Council resolution calling

0:02:180:02:20

for an immediate ceasefire.

0:02:200:02:21

The vote in favour of a 30-day truce

was passed unanimously.

0:02:210:02:24

It's hoped that an end

to fighting would allow

0:02:240:02:27

humanitarian aid to be brought

in and injured civilians rescued.

0:02:270:02:32

The International Olympic Committee

has voted to keep its ban on Russia

0:02:320:02:35

but says it will be lifted

if there are no further positive

0:02:350:02:38

tests from the Winter

Games in South Korea.

0:02:380:02:41

The decision means that the Russian

athletes at Pyeongchang will not be

0:02:410:02:44

allowed to carry their national flag

at today's closing ceremony.

0:02:440:02:52

Russia was stripped of its Olympic

status before the Games because of

0:02:520:02:57

accusations of state-sponsored

doping.

0:02:570:03:00

More than 80 senior Labour figures

have issued a statement

0:03:000:03:03

in the Observer newspaper warning

Jeremy Corbyn that he wouldn't be

0:03:030:03:05

able to deliver his spending

promises unless the UK stays

0:03:050:03:08

in the EU single market.

0:03:080:03:09

The Labour leader is due to make

a major speech on Brexit tomorrow.

0:03:090:03:12

He's expected to commit Labour

to backing membership of some

0:03:120:03:15

kind of customs union,

but not to remaining

0:03:150:03:16

in the single market.

0:03:160:03:19

One of Bollywood's greatest leading

ladies has died at the age of 54.

0:03:190:03:24

Sridevi Kapoor -

known just as Sridevi -

0:03:240:03:28

starred in more than 200 films

in a career spanning four decades.

0:03:280:03:31

She's thought to have had a heart

attack while attending

0:03:310:03:33

a family wedding in Dubai.

0:03:330:03:36

And tributes are also being paid

to the British actress Emma Chambers

0:03:360:03:39

who has died at the age of 53.

0:03:390:03:43

She was best known

for her roles in The Vicar

0:03:430:03:45

of Dibley and Notting Hill.

0:03:450:03:47

Her agent said she died

of natural causes.

0:03:470:03:49

That's all from me.

0:03:490:03:51

The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.

0:03:510:03:53

Back to you, Andrew.

0:03:530:03:54

Thank you.

0:03:540:03:59

As ever to the front pages. The

Sunday Telegraph has a Brexit story

0:03:590:04:05

about the SNP potentially derailing

trade deals and the England rugby

0:04:050:04:10

team having been derailed by

Scotland yesterday. I never watch

0:04:100:04:14

these games because whenever I do,

Scotland loses. I did not watch it,

0:04:140:04:19

Scotland won. The Sunday Times, the

story about top shop, and Pat

0:04:190:04:32

story about top shop, and Pat -- the

Archbishop of Canterbury. The Mail

0:04:330:04:36

on Sunday, help lines for heroes,

soldiers, a campaign may have been

0:04:360:04:41

running for a long time, a

breakthrough on that. More of the

0:04:410:04:46

politics inside. Where is the

Observer? A whole lot of senior

0:04:460:04:51

Labour figures, Neil Kinnock and

more, piling pressure on Jeremy

0:04:510:04:55

Corbyn, they want him to commit to

joining the single market, staying

0:04:550:05:01

in the single market, as well as the

customs union. Let us start, Katie

0:05:010:05:07

Perrior, you were at the heart of

the May operation for a long time,

0:05:070:05:12

big spread in the Sunday Times,

although ministers gathered around,

0:05:120:05:18

a very detailed briefing from Number

10 in the paper.

-- all the

0:05:180:05:23

ministers. A cracking long read in

the Sunday Times, great detail about

0:05:230:05:28

what happened, they move from room

to room in a Cluedo style, they left

0:05:280:05:34

their mobile phones, taken away,

they discussed Brexit and many other

0:05:340:05:38

things over shortbread and cups of

tea. It seems to be they got on,

0:05:380:05:43

brilliant briefing from Number 10,

great pictures of who is who in the

0:05:430:05:47

room.

There is a fairly detailed

account of what they have now

0:05:470:05:52

agreed. Can we go through that?

They

have talked about demand for mutual

0:05:520:05:57

recognition, standards on goods

traded between the UK and the EU,

0:05:570:06:01

public commitment to make sure

standards are as high as the EU,

0:06:010:06:06

keeping rules and regulations

substantially similar. And what Greg

0:06:060:06:11

Hart has done, standing up for the

automotive centre, saying diverging

0:06:110:06:16

stars not protect jobs. I run

through of everyone's role in the

0:06:160:06:19

day. -- diverging does not protect

jobs.

Over time, Britain will be

0:06:190:06:26

able to diverging all sorts of

different ways and there will be

0:06:260:06:29

some kind of mechanism not involving

the European court overseeing that,

0:06:290:06:33

the essence of the deal?

Absolutely

but the EU told us we could not

0:06:330:06:38

cherry pick.

Will it be saleable?

The EU may well say, that is your

0:06:380:06:43

starting position, we do not like

it. We need a meaningful vote in

0:06:430:06:47

parliament at some point.

We are

scrabbling around to understand the

0:06:470:06:54

changes, big changes on the Labour

side, June.

Front page of the

0:06:540:07:02

Observer, the Labour alliance piles

pressure on Jeremy Corbyn over his

0:07:020:07:07

Brexit stance. 80 senior Labour

figures have come together to put

0:07:070:07:11

pressure on Jeremy Corbyn, not just

to remaining in something of a

0:07:110:07:15

customs union, but also to remain in

the single market.

Can I stop you

0:07:150:07:19

there? People get confused. The

customs union is the great ring

0:07:190:07:24

fence around the EU. If we

0:07:240:07:35

stay inside that, something like it,

we have to take EU rules?

The EU

0:07:360:07:39

negotiates for us. Totally.

Many

people including Neil Kinnock

0:07:390:07:40

sayyid, if we are going to do that,

why not stay in the single market?

0:07:400:07:43

Totally. It is about the movement of

goods. We have to look at the

0:07:430:07:46

freedoms, but what we have to decide

is whether or not it is worth it

0:07:460:07:49

when we know the terms of the deal.

What that 80 senior Labour figures

0:07:490:07:55

are saying, Helena Kennedy, Doreen

Lawrence, Chuka Umunna, Neil

0:07:550:07:59

Kinnock, if Jeremy Corbyn wants to

fund his anti-austerity measures,

0:07:590:08:03

the only way to do it is to remain

in the single market.

Highly

0:08:030:08:07

political because there is an

amendment to the trade bill backed

0:08:070:08:11

by Anna Soubry and Tory remainers.

The question is, if the Labour Party

0:08:110:08:18

gets alongside that, Theresa May can

potentially lose her majority on

0:08:180:08:22

absolutely crucial question of the

day?

Absolutely. They have pushed

0:08:220:08:27

those votes to the back end of the

spring, the select committee are

0:08:270:08:30

saying, we might have a vote

earlier, this is looking like it

0:08:300:08:34

will not go away.

You cannot coexist

down the road forever because we

0:08:340:08:38

have that actual negotiations that

McCready cannot kick this.

The

0:08:380:08:43

Sunday Times, spinning plates, the

more you pick it down the road,

0:08:430:08:49

hopefully we will be in a place,

concessions from the EU, when some

0:08:490:08:55

people around.

Wait and see. Other

really important story today, the

0:08:550:08:59

horror going on again in Syria, we

thought things had calmed down, much

0:08:590:09:03

worse over the last two weeks.

We

have the ceasefire agreed by the UN,

0:09:030:09:08

Russia does not look like it has

vetoed it, so it looks like it will

0:09:080:09:13

go ahead, but whenever there is a

ceasefire, there is heavy bombing

0:09:130:09:17

beforehand, they try to get as much

done before abiding by the

0:09:170:09:21

ceasefire. Shocking

0:09:210:09:29

ceasefire. Shocking scenes, we have

been here before. At what point do

0:09:290:09:31

we feel seminars can be done,

intervene? Parliamentarians feel

0:09:310:09:33

helpless, we feel helpless, and

we're not quite sure about giving

0:09:330:09:35

money to that aid charities...

Absolutely. This is the penalty of

0:09:350:09:40

not intervening at the beginning. We

intervened in a ruck and to many

0:09:400:09:45

people's views, that went wrong --

we intervened in Iraq. We are

0:09:450:09:52

impotent observers.

As Johnny Mercer

says, at least force yourself to

0:09:520:09:55

watch the pictures, if you cannot do

anything, do not turn a blind eye.

0:09:550:10:00

They cannot be sure Assad will keep

to it either.

We have been talking a

0:10:000:10:04

lot about the scandals in that aid

sector, another one this morning in

0:10:040:10:09

the Sunday Times.

This is in the

Sunday Times, another one, advisory

0:10:090:10:20

group to Mines, hit by a terrible

story, many of the senior employees

0:10:200:10:26

used prostitutes and two stories in

the DRC were members had affairs

0:10:260:10:34

with local women and one apparently

impregnated one of the women and

0:10:340:10:39

abandon her. A charity that Prince

Harry supports, so these stories are

0:10:390:10:43

not going away.

Spreading in all

directions. Katie, another of the

0:10:430:10:49

really big stories of the moment,

the University and College strike,

0:10:490:10:58

unprecedented, students are

consumers.

They are consumers,

0:10:580:11:02

paying over £9,000 in fees, and many

more in living costs, and they are

0:11:020:11:06

demanding a higher standard of

return on investment. There is no

0:11:060:11:11

letup in the fact these lecturers

will continue to strike, they are

0:11:110:11:15

striking over pensions, they will

lose £10,000 a year under the new

0:11:150:11:19

rules.

A lot of these people, the

pensions would not have been that

0:11:190:11:23

big in the first place, they are not

asked or negotiated with, just told,

0:11:230:11:29

you are losing this money.

One of

the attention is on vice

0:11:290:11:33

chancellors, but it covers all

lecturers and many are on much lower

0:11:330:11:37

wages. The students are quite big

numbers supporting lecturers on this

0:11:370:11:41

but at the same time, saying, if we

are not having lectures, we want a

0:11:410:11:47

refund.

So much to talk about.

Picking up a storm at the Brit

0:11:470:11:54

awards,, Stormzy.

A new day in

politics when the Prime Minister is

0:11:540:11:58

having to respond to the grime

artist. He called rout over Grenfell

0:11:580:12:05

, but then he backed a petition the

next day to have it debated in the

0:12:050:12:11

Commons and the petition overnight

received over 137,000 signatures,

0:12:110:12:15

even more than that now, and it is

wonderful to see someone like him

0:12:150:12:20

using his platform for a purpose and

speaking truth to power.

Good, but

0:12:200:12:25

Theresa May was not responsible for

Grenfell

she is responsible for

0:12:250:12:30

dealing with it. And that is why it

is right the young people are

0:12:300:12:35

holding her to account.

Let me ask

you the new world of Number 10 these

0:12:350:12:39

days, back in the day, an MP put

down a question, the Prime Minister

0:12:390:12:44

would eventually be obliged to

respond, now Stormzy says something

0:12:440:12:49

on the Brit awards and the Prime

Minister has to respond.

It is not

0:12:490:12:54

just this, it is the way forward,

lots of MPs are saying it is an open

0:12:540:13:00

door now.

Do you think your

successor would have to say, excuse

0:13:000:13:04

me, let me tell you about someone

called Stormzy?

There are always

0:13:040:13:10

those scenarios! You see something

on Twitter, you have to describe to

0:13:100:13:14

MPs who they are.

Is she a big grime

fan?

I doubt it, but Matt Hancock

0:13:140:13:22

apparently is.

Extraordinary story

about Winston Churchill in the

0:13:220:13:25

Telegraph. We thought he never

played away.

It seems that is not

0:13:250:13:32

the case. Who knew that? Apparently

he had an affair with a lady who was

0:13:320:13:42

the great

0:13:420:13:47

the great aunt of Carla Levine and

he painted pictures of her.

This is

0:13:490:13:52

genuinely new, something none of us

knew before. A very sad story, we

0:13:520:13:57

will have to end on this, an

extraordinary actress who we all

0:13:570:14:03

remember, very compelling and

unusual face in The Vicar of Dibley

0:14:030:14:09

and many other things, Four Weddings

And A Funeral.

Died at 53, such a

0:14:090:14:16

young age, many celebrities have

said she lit up the screen and she

0:14:160:14:19

was very much someone who was warm

and genuine and kind. I think she

0:14:190:14:25

will be really missed within that

community. But we can always watch

0:14:250:14:29

reruns and I always think... It is a

sad thing to lose someone, but the

0:14:290:14:35

gift that keeps on giving, to watch

them.

So unexpected and shocking.

0:14:350:14:40

Gorgeous goofy look, representing

the goofy in all of us.

The role was

0:14:400:14:48

made for her, much missed.

Thank you

both very much indeed.

0:14:480:14:53

And so to the weather.

0:14:530:14:54

Beautiful sunshine in the south,

but a huge wave of icy

0:14:540:14:57

air from the Continent.

0:14:570:14:58

I thought we'd voted

to stop that happening.

0:14:580:15:00

Over to Philip Avery

in the weather studio.

0:15:000:15:03

Good morning. I will leave the

political forecast to you.

0:15:070:15:11

We are linked to the continent for

the coming few days because it is

0:15:150:15:19

going to keep it very cool, although

today mostly dry with temperatures

0:15:190:15:29

between one and 8 degrees depending

on where you are. Tonight, a very

0:15:290:15:32

cold night in prospect and the first

signs of some wintry showers falling

0:15:320:15:38

into a cold start widely across the

British Isles on Monday morning. It

0:15:380:15:41

will feel much colder than the

weekend wherever you are stepping

0:15:410:15:44

out of the door first up. Those

wintry showers to be had there, like

0:15:440:15:49

at this stage I would have thought

across eastern areas, and notice how

0:15:490:15:53

already those temperatures have

dipped away. And then, Monday

0:15:530:15:58

evening into Tuesday, we think a

more organised area of snow leaving

0:15:580:16:03

several centimetres in its wake will

gradually drag its way down and

0:16:030:16:07

across the British Isles. The signs

of things to come here. Feeling

0:16:070:16:12

much, much colder. I will show you

the feels like. This will be ramped

0:16:120:16:17

up into the middle part of the week,

as indeed will be those wintry

0:16:170:16:22

showers. Andrew, winter is coming

back with a vengeance.

0:16:220:16:26

showers. Andrew, winter is coming

back with a vengeance.

0:16:260:16:26

It certainly is.

0:16:260:16:29

When Michael Wolff's controversial

book about Donald Trump

0:16:290:16:31

was published in the US,

it so angered the president

0:16:310:16:33

that he called the author

a liar and a total loser.

0:16:330:16:36

Among other things, Fire and Fury

suggested that Trump was devastated

0:16:360:16:39

when he won the election,

that all his senior staffers believe

0:16:390:16:41

he's unfit to be president,

and that the Trump campaigns links

0:16:410:16:44

to Russia were, in Steve

Bannon's view, treasonous.

0:16:440:16:46

Since publication, Michael Wolff's

own reputation has come under fire

0:16:460:16:48

while sales of his book continue

to soar, and he joins me now.

0:16:480:16:54

Let me start, welcome, by asking you

about

0:16:540:16:56

Let me start, welcome, by asking you

about your access. Did you get to

0:16:560:16:58

talk to the president once he had

become president Costa I spent about

0:16:580:17:04

three hours in one-on-one

conversations with the president

0:17:040:17:07

over the course of the campaign, the

transition and in the White House,

0:17:070:17:11

yes. And I read an account of you

being able to sit on a sofa just

0:17:110:17:17

outside the Oval Office while people

were coming and going for hours and

0:17:170:17:20

hours.

Is that true? That is true.

So you had very good access. Why

0:17:200:17:26

would they give someone like you,

not a natural prompt supporter, such

0:17:260:17:31

good access? -- not a natural Donald

Trump supporter, such good access?

I

0:17:310:17:39

don't really know the answer to that

but I would guess that they are

0:17:390:17:43

totally incompetent. They don't

really know what they are doing, it

0:17:430:17:46

is the White House in chaos, so I

was able to slip in. Beyond that,

0:17:460:17:51

the president and I have got on in

the past.

In the past. Uate total

0:17:510:17:56

loser.

Now I am a total loser.

Before that, I was the best, the

0:17:560:18:04

greatest.

But to be clear, you spoke

to him in the White House?

I did,

0:18:040:18:10

yes.

For those who don't know the

book, the overall message is that

0:18:100:18:18

President Trump is not fit to be the

president?

It is not my message, I

0:18:180:18:23

was very clear about that. It is the

people around him, his closest

0:18:230:18:27

advisers who have that message.

When

we have got the terrible shooting

0:18:270:18:32

and all these people coming to him

on the street, is he capable of

0:18:320:18:37

having empathy for them, to change

policy on guns, or example?

I don't

0:18:370:18:44

think you can change policy on guns

in America because his base, that is

0:18:440:18:48

arguably the most important issue

for his base. There is no

0:18:480:18:54

possibility under the political son

that he can change direction on

0:18:540:18:58

that. Even if he has empathy, which

he probably doesn't or would have to

0:18:580:19:05

dig deeper than he has ever dug.

Michael, many people would say the

0:19:050:19:10

trouble with this is that it is a

liberal Washington or New York

0:19:100:19:16

fantasies. In other words, people

like you never wanted him to win,

0:19:160:19:20

are upset that he has one...

Let me

clarify that. I get criticism from

0:19:200:19:28

the other side that I was too nice

to Trump before I got into the White

0:19:280:19:33

House. I have no political axe at

all to grind here. I may be one of

0:19:330:19:39

the few writers, and it's probably

one of the reasons I got access to

0:19:390:19:42

begin with, I was only interested in

Donald Trump as a character. I knew

0:19:420:19:48

that would be a story. I was

perfectly willing to write Donald

0:19:480:19:53

Trump is the unexpected success

story.

That isn't the book you read,

0:19:530:19:58

however.

That was not the

circumstance that I found.

And you

0:19:580:20:04

are now under attack, even for some

liberal mainstream newspapers for

0:20:040:20:08

the accuracy of this. Let me ask you

about a few things. Tony Blair was

0:20:080:20:12

outraged about what you said about

him trying to get a job as part of

0:20:120:20:15

the Middle East Quartet?

Let me rush

to this, I sat in the White House on

0:20:150:20:22

the couch listening, I wasn't

supposed to overhear this but they

0:20:220:20:28

were standing right there, with Tony

Blair and Gerald Kushner standing

0:20:280:20:34

not 15 feet in front of me with Tony

Blair, let's choose my words

0:20:340:20:41

carefully, sucking up to Gerald

Kushner.

But as he says, and I

0:20:410:20:48

quote, this story is a complete

fabrication literally from beginning

0:20:480:20:51

to end, I have never had such

conversation in the White House,

0:20:510:20:56

outside of the White House, with

anybody else.

So I would have to say

0:20:560:21:01

that Tony Blair is a complete liar.

Literally 15 feet away from me. You

0:21:010:21:06

are saying he is a complete liar.

In

this instance, absolutely.

One of

0:21:060:21:12

the things about this, I mean, I

really enjoyed it, the book, but I

0:21:120:21:19

was never sure whether I was reading

a very novelistic account or whether

0:21:190:21:23

this was good old-fashioned

journalism. There were lots of great

0:21:230:21:26

marks around things and I wasn't

sure whether you were there

0:21:260:21:29

recording or if you were putting...

Let me ask you, you have read Bob

0:21:290:21:33

Woodward's accounts? There was no

difference here. This is the way you

0:21:330:21:41

get to see what's going on inside

the White House, is you need a

0:21:410:21:47

writer to make some deals. Let's be

perfectly honest. And the deals are,

0:21:470:21:51

you will tell me what you know, you

are a close presidential aide, and I

0:21:510:21:57

will protect you. I won't say that I

spoke to you.

I understand the

0:21:570:22:03

technique, but the problem is that

as a reader you are never absolutely

0:22:030:22:06

sure what happened or not and that

allows a certain amount of innuendo

0:22:060:22:10

and in particular there has been the

innuendo about the United Nations

0:22:100:22:14

ambassador having an affair with

President Trump. Again, she is

0:22:140:22:18

outraged by this and she feels that

you have been pushing forward this

0:22:180:22:21

general suggestion that there was an

affair that.

There is no suggestion

0:22:210:22:25

in the book of that. There was a

suggestion made on a comedy show in

0:22:250:22:30

the US that I had suggested this. So

I can put this to rest. I don't know

0:22:300:22:35

who the president is having an

affair with. Do I believe the

0:22:350:22:39

president is having an affair? It's

Donald Trump.

But again, it's

0:22:390:22:45

innuendo. It's Donald Trump.

Well,

let's talk innuendo. Let's follow

0:22:450:22:51

that down. Here is a man whose

career and life have been about

0:22:510:22:56

pursuing women. He's been very open

about this. He's been in the women

0:22:560:23:03

pursuing business.

Beauty,

fashion... He is now in the White

0:23:030:23:06

House, surrounded by...

But that is

exactly the point. This man who has

0:23:060:23:11

had this career is now in the White

House. The White House has not

0:23:110:23:15

cleansed him of anything else, his

behaviour has not changed over any

0:23:150:23:19

detail in the White House. Do you

think it's changed over this day

0:23:190:23:22

tell? I don't know.

You made -- do

you think it's changed over this

0:23:220:23:29

detail? You made the assertion that

the ambassador was embracing this

0:23:290:23:40

story but she has not.

Actually, I

didn't accuse her of anything and

0:23:400:23:46

she hasn't been accused of anything,

certainly not by me. Certainly, she

0:23:460:23:50

was denying this. I will say again,

I don't know who the president is

0:23:500:23:56

having an affair with. I don't know

what his habits are in that regard

0:23:560:24:00

in the White House. If I did know,

that certainly would have been in

0:24:000:24:05

the book.

But you don't know that he

wasn't and you don't know if he is.

0:24:050:24:09

You assume that he is.

Yes, I

assume, I assume because this is

0:24:090:24:14

Donald Trump and I think that's an

absolutely fair assumption.

Michael

0:24:140:24:18

Wolff, thanks very much indeed for

talking to us.

0:24:180:24:21

Coming up here a little later...

0:24:210:24:22

The Sunday Politics

with Sarah Smith.

0:24:220:24:24

She will be joined by

the former Conservative

0:24:240:24:26

leader, Iain Duncan Smith.

0:24:260:24:27

And Labour MPs Frank Field

and Stella Creasy will be

0:24:270:24:29

discussing their party's developing

policy on Brexit.

0:24:290:24:31

That's the Sunday Politics

here on BBC One at 11am.

0:24:310:24:37

Talking of developing policies...

0:24:370:24:39

Ahead of a week where we are told

Jeremy Corbyn is going to change

0:24:390:24:43

policy and embrace a customs union

with the EU after we leave,

0:24:430:24:46

that potentially faces Theresa May

with a major Commons crisis,

0:24:460:24:48

so is this genuine convinction,

or a piece of brutal

0:24:480:24:50

parliamentary tactics?

0:24:500:24:51

Sir Keir Starmer, Labour's

Brexit Secretary, is here.

0:24:510:24:55

Good morning. Welcome. Can I ask

there is double what the Labour

0:24:550:25:01

position is on a customs union?

We

long championed being in a customs

0:25:010:25:05

union with the EU and the benefits

of that. Obviously is the only way

0:25:050:25:09

realistically to get tariff free

access. It's really important for

0:25:090:25:12

our manufacturing base and nobody

can answer the question can you keep

0:25:120:25:17

your commitment to know how border

in Northern Ireland without a

0:25:170:25:20

customs union. In the general

election and since we have

0:25:200:25:25

consistently said that the benefits

of a customs union must be

0:25:250:25:28

maintained, then over the summer I

laid out the transitional

0:25:280:25:32

arrangements of being in a customs

union and said then that it ought to

0:25:320:25:35

be an option on the table. We have

then had many weeks of discussion

0:25:350:25:40

unanimously and we have agreed to

develop our policy. Jeremy will

0:25:400:25:43

announce that tomorrow.

So this is,

as it were, laying to rest the last

0:25:430:25:48

shreds of any doubt about whether

you will be in favour of a customs

0:25:480:25:52

union. What kind of a customs union

do you want?

Well, the customs

0:25:520:25:56

arrangements at the moment are

hard-wired into the treaty. There

0:25:560:26:00

will have to be a new treaty. It

will do the work of the customs

0:26:000:26:03

union. So is our customs union, it

is what the amendments are all

0:26:030:26:10

saying. They will have to be an

agreement. But will it do the work

0:26:100:26:13

of the current customs union? Yes,

that is the intention.

So, under

0:26:130:26:17

your plan, after we leave the EU,

who will be in charge of foreign

0:26:170:26:22

trade arrangements for Britain with

the EU?

That will have to be

0:26:220:26:26

arranged. We will have to have a

say. We all want more trade

0:26:260:26:29

agreements and we are more likely to

get them if we do it jointly with

0:26:290:26:34

the EU ban on our own and all the

evidence suggests more likely with

0:26:340:26:41

the EU and the evidence suggests

that coming out of the EU and the

0:26:410:26:44

customs union and having a separate

effect would be much more costly.

0:26:440:26:55

But that would mean the EU were

still setting our trade around the

0:26:550:26:59

world and we can't do bold deals

with the United States or elsewhere?

0:26:590:27:04

Obviously we all want bold new trade

deals, and how that was done would

0:27:040:27:11

have to be organised within a new

trade arrangements. The question is,

0:27:110:27:17

are they more likely with or without

the EU, whether you do it on your

0:27:170:27:22

own? Liam Fox that he would have 40

trade agreements for 30 months' time

0:27:220:27:27

to sign. -- for 13 months' time. It

will come to a crunch because there

0:27:270:27:34

are various amendments in

Parliament, as you know.

When you

0:27:340:27:37

know it is not -- you say it is not

worth us leaving the customs union

0:27:370:27:46

in order to do deals with the United

States and Australia, what makes you

0:27:460:27:50

say that?

If you look at the

independent analysis and the

0:27:500:27:54

government's own analysis, they all

point in one direction, that the

0:27:540:27:57

benefits of us doing it on our own

are much smaller than anyone is

0:27:570:28:01

prepared to admit and the cost is

much higher. I don't think there is

0:28:010:28:05

any evidence out there, and if Liam

Fox has got some evidence, maybe he

0:28:050:28:09

can share that with us, I don't

think there is any evidence from a

0:28:090:28:12

credible source base that there is

an advantage of doing it narrowing.

0:28:120:28:15

In him, we have -- here, we have

obligations to our manufacturing

0:28:150:28:22

base, to Northern Ireland. Nobody is

saying that we can keep to the

0:28:220:28:29

commitment of noble hardboard in

Northern Ireland without a customs

0:28:290:28:31

union.

If it is not deeply

unattractive to stay tied to a

0:28:310:28:38

customs union once we leave?

No, the

referendum is that we must leave the

0:28:380:28:45

EU, it was a close result,

0:28:450:28:51

EU, it was a close result, 48, 52...

But there is disagreement in your

0:28:520:28:54

party amongst this. Here a point is

made saying it is deeply

0:28:540:28:59

unattractive to stay in the customs

union, including us from making

0:28:590:29:03

trade agreements with our five

largest export markets outside the

0:29:030:29:09

EU. He has lost that argument in the

Labour Party?

Barry Gardner said

0:29:090:29:15

that speaking largely for himself. A

lot of water has gone under the

0:29:150:29:20

bridge since then. We reached a

unanimous agreement regarding our

0:29:200:29:24

position on the customs union and

that means unanimous.

There is a

0:29:240:29:27

slightly menacing amendment made by

Anna Sue Brie. What will your

0:29:270:29:40

reaction to that be?

The Labour

Party put down amendments paving the

0:29:400:29:45

way for a customs union. Now these

amendments have been put up

0:29:450:29:53

basically saying the same thing.

Basically, crunch time is coming for

0:29:530:30:00

the Prime Minister.

So you will back

those amendments?

They are so close

0:30:000:30:05

to our own, we have to make a final

decision, but whether it is our

0:30:050:30:09

amendments or the cross-party

amendments, crunch time is coming

0:30:090:30:11

for the Prime Minister because the

majority of parliament does not back

0:30:110:30:15

her approach to a customs union and

the majority of Parliament needs to

0:30:150:30:18

be heard and it will be heard sooner

rather than later.

If you got such

0:30:180:30:24

an amendment through, this would

blow a massive hole straight through

0:30:240:30:28

Theresa May's negotiating plans and

Burton Hasbro Minister. Surely what

0:30:280:30:32

she will then do is tie this to a

vote of confidence and their

0:30:320:30:35

harrowing MPs do call an election.

How she handles this is a matter for

0:30:350:30:40

her. We said from the outset that

what is being negotiated is the next

0:30:400:30:48

20 or 30 years of our future.

Parliament ought to have a voice in

0:30:480:30:52

that. The Prime Minister has pushed

Parliament away and Parliament is

0:30:520:30:56

coming back to be heard.

This is

brutal and slightly cynical

0:30:560:31:00

parliamentary tactics designed to

get Theresa May out of Downing

0:31:000:31:04

Street and Jeremy Corbyn in, isn't

it?

Andrew, I pick every time I have

0:31:040:31:09

been on the programme I have

championed the customs union. I have

0:31:090:31:14

never suggested otherwise. It was in

our manifesto, in our position last

0:31:140:31:17

summer and we have developed that

unanimously. Obviously these

0:31:170:31:21

amendments are coming out but the

position you put to me is not

0:31:210:31:24

accurate.

0:31:240:31:29

From the other side, 80 senior

colleagues making another point, if

0:31:290:31:32

you are going to be in a customs

union, you have to accept a lot of

0:31:320:31:37

EU regulations and laws and ways of

doing things, if you do that, why

0:31:370:31:41

not just stayed in the single market

as well?

Do you want to be close to

0:31:410:31:47

the EU or distant?

We know your

answer is close.

We have always said

0:31:470:31:51

the benefits of the single market

must be in the final agreement and

0:31:510:31:57

that is an important commitment.

However you

0:31:570:32:03

However you arrive at that, whatever

the instrument or agreement, the

0:32:050:32:07

benefits have to be there. Labour is

agreed on the end state. There is an

0:32:070:32:10

argument about how you get there.

You could be actually in the single

0:32:100:32:12

market, not in the single market,

very close?

If you want to be close

0:32:120:32:20

or distant, we are united saying we

want to be close, there is an

0:32:200:32:23

argument about how we do it, but the

benefits of the single market have

0:32:230:32:27

to be in the final agreement, as far

as we are concerned. There are

0:32:270:32:32

arguments about the model. The unity

of purpose is important.

It is the

0:32:320:32:35

kind of thing Guy Verhofstadt told

me, what we want is an association

0:32:350:32:41

agreement between the UK and the EU

which includes a free trade

0:32:410:32:46

agreement, roughly speaking where

Labour might end up as well.

It

0:32:460:32:50

might be a new agreement, the

question is, how close and whether

0:32:500:32:54

we really get the benefits of the

single market and the customs union,

0:32:540:32:58

and that has been our focus

throughout. What is important is you

0:32:580:33:02

have not got that clarity from the

Government, different noises coming

0:33:020:33:06

out of the meetings last week.

Liam

Fox will be admirably clear, we will

0:33:060:33:15

see. All of the people in the Labour

Party, Brexit supporters, lots of

0:33:150:33:22

constituencies which are pro-Brexit,

Frank Field says you are breaking

0:33:220:33:30

faith with the core Labour pro

Brexit vote.

We have respected the

0:33:300:33:35

referendum outcome, we voted to

trickle out of 450 -- trigger

0:33:350:33:41

Article 50. We have to make choices

for the future of our country and a

0:33:410:33:46

customs union is really important

because we have a manufacturing base

0:33:460:33:50

to protect, economy and jobs to

protect. We also need to reflect the

0:33:500:33:54

fact it was a 52-48 split and we

have to have an approach respecting

0:33:540:33:59

the outcome but brings the country

together.

To conclude, in the huge

0:33:590:34:04

national choice between staying

close to the EU and remaining and

0:34:040:34:09

essentially European kind of country

on the one hand and diverging and

0:34:090:34:12

being a different country on the

other, use a crunch time is how far

0:34:120:34:17

away now?

It depends when the

amendments come up and there was the

0:34:170:34:21

meaningful vote in October which

will be a big moment and it has to

0:34:210:34:24

be meaningful and I do not think we

should accept the proposition it is

0:34:240:34:28

a take it or leave it vote.

Parliament has to speak on this.

Are

0:34:280:34:34

you pleased to see Ken Livingstone

coming back into the Labour Party?

I

0:34:340:34:38

have read the reports, I took a

strong view on this at the time, he

0:34:380:34:43

is still suspended, but I do not

know the detail than what I have

0:34:430:34:48

read before.

Should he stay

suspended?

It runs out in April. It

0:34:480:34:54

is not a decision for me, I have

plenty on my plate.

You do. Thank

0:34:540:34:59

you for talking to us.

0:34:590:35:02

For 30 years, readers

of the Daily Telegraph have

0:35:020:35:04

started their morning by looking

for a thumb-sized squiggle

0:35:040:35:07

on the front page.

0:35:070:35:09

It's the pocket cartoon by Matt and

this is today's, glorious as ever.

0:35:090:35:11

Matt Pritchett has become Britain's

favourite cartoonist.

0:35:110:35:14

Good philosophical question.

0:35:200:35:23

He is camera-shy, but we tracked him

down at his desk earlier this week.

0:35:230:35:26

He began by telling me why he tends

to focus on ordinary people,

0:35:260:35:30

rather than the famous.

0:35:300:35:32

Well, that was a decision

I made when I realised

0:35:320:35:35

I couldn't do caricatures,

so I thought I would make my jokes

0:35:350:35:42

about the news affecting ordinary

people and actually makes you a bit

0:35:420:35:44

more creative, if you have to think,

I don't want to draw Theresa May,

0:35:440:35:47

but I want to draw how her policies

are affecting people.

0:35:470:35:50

You've had an absolutely

stellar career here,

0:35:500:35:52

but it started almost

as an accident, is that right?

0:35:520:35:54

It did start as an accident.

0:35:540:35:59

It was the day that the Telegraph

printed the wrong date on the front

0:35:590:36:03

of the Telegraph and they said

it was Thursday, 25th

0:36:030:36:05

of February, a day early.

0:36:050:36:08

And the readers were so furious,

they all rang in to say,

0:36:080:36:12

I've had a row in the post office

and I've been to a doctor's

0:36:120:36:19

appointment that didn't happen,

so Max Hastings, who was the editor,

0:36:190:36:23

had to write a front-page

apology and they said,

0:36:230:36:25

we need a cartoon with this.

0:36:250:36:28

And I was literally just standing

there, not doing anything,

0:36:280:36:33

so they got me to do a cartoon.

0:36:330:36:35

That was my first.

0:36:350:36:36

Gave you a pen and that

is how it started?

0:36:360:36:39

Exactly, exactly.

0:36:390:36:41

So let's just talk a little bit

about a typical day,

0:36:410:36:46

you are arrive on the train,

you knock your pipe out

0:36:460:36:49

and you walk into the office.

0:36:490:36:50

I arrive about eight and read

the papers and I see what the other

0:36:500:36:54

cartoonists have done and if I see

a good joke by another

0:36:540:36:57

cartoonist, I fly into a rage.

0:36:570:36:59

You never steal it?

0:36:590:37:01

It's too late by then.

0:37:010:37:02

You can't, exactly.

0:37:020:37:06

And then I write down every subject

I could possibly think of a joke

0:37:060:37:10

on and it's a bit like colonic

irrigation, you have to get

0:37:100:37:15

the rubbish out first.

0:37:150:37:20

And I have this tradition that

I take six cartoons over to show

0:37:200:37:25

the chap in charge of page one

and it's amazing how

0:37:250:37:31

many times I have five

roughed ideas and think,

0:37:310:37:38

well, I've just got to think

of a sixth because I

0:37:380:37:40

always take him six.

0:37:400:37:41

And that is the one.

0:37:410:37:42

And we live in a scary and dangerous

world and very often

0:37:420:37:45

I find your cartoons make it less

scary for us.

0:37:450:37:48

So I'm thinking, for instance,

your famous cartoon during the BSE

0:37:480:37:51

scandal, a lot of us were really

worried about mad cows

0:37:510:37:53

and all the rest of it,

and you had this lovely one

0:37:530:38:01

of the cow sitting

beside a passenger in

0:38:040:38:06

a bus, and it somehow

domesticates the horror.

0:38:060:38:08

Well, I can't remember

who it was who said that nothing

0:38:080:38:11

matters very much and hardly

anything matters at all.

0:38:110:38:13

But if I say that to myself 50 times

a day then you do think,

0:38:130:38:16

actually, let's calm down,

there must be a funny side to this.

0:38:160:38:22

I mean, some things there

aren't a funny side to,

0:38:220:38:25

but most of the time,

you can sort of diffuse

0:38:250:38:27

the situation with the joke.

0:38:270:38:28

And we see again and again

big political stories,

0:38:280:38:30

I'm thinking of the MP expenses

scandal which gave you lots

0:38:300:38:33

and lots of cartoons,

lovely one of the ducks

0:38:330:38:35

and the plasma television.

0:38:350:38:36

Again, often you find you have two

people sitting in armchairs

0:38:360:38:39

with a TV in front of them,

chap's got his pipe, are they based

0:38:390:38:42

on real people at all?

0:38:420:38:43

It is top secret.

0:38:430:38:44

They were real people and I do

think about them when I'm

0:38:440:38:47

thinking about the news.

0:38:470:38:48

I think, how will they react

when they hear about MPs' expenses

0:38:480:38:51

or how will Brexit affect them?

0:38:510:38:53

It just sort of helps

to bring everything down

0:38:530:38:56

to the human level, really.

0:38:560:39:00

When I first started drawing them,

I thought they were fools, but now,

0:39:000:39:04

of course, a bit like owners who end

up looking like their dogs,

0:39:040:39:07

I have turned into this...

0:39:070:39:09

Sitting there with your pipe.

0:39:090:39:10

Now I think he's the only one

who speaks any sense.

0:39:100:39:13

I am obsessed by when my bin

is going to be emptied

0:39:130:39:19

and all the other things that

obsess him, so I know I am

0:39:190:39:22

turning into him now.

0:39:220:39:23

Again, it's about everyday life,

things that we all go through.

0:39:230:39:26

I'm thinking of particular cartoons

on two alcohol-free days a week,

0:39:260:39:28

I'm trying to do three.

0:39:280:39:29

Drinking does seem to be a subject

Telegraph readers care deeply

0:39:290:39:34

about and they don't like being told

to drink less, so I can't do enough

0:39:340:39:38

jokes about drinking.

0:39:380:39:39

What about Brexit?

0:39:390:39:40

Because this is immeasurably

complicated, endlessly complex,

0:39:400:39:45

goes on forever, and in a sense,

I guess, must be

0:39:450:39:48

a cartoonist's nightmare.

0:39:480:39:51

Well, because of the 30th

anniversary, I was going

0:39:510:39:55

through cartoons when I started

and we were all obsessed

0:39:550:40:00

about the Maastricht Treaty,

so, for me, it's been

0:40:000:40:02

going on since the '90s.

0:40:020:40:07

I would like to say to Theresa,

if she could move it on a bit,

0:40:070:40:11

I'm running out of jokes

about transition, so if

0:40:110:40:14

she could sort of...

0:40:140:40:16

I'm sure she will be watching.

0:40:160:40:17

Yes, exactly.

0:40:170:40:18

Are there any things

you won't make jokes about?

0:40:180:40:20

I try and avoid anything

where anyone's been killed.

0:40:200:40:25

I did do a joke after

the Charlie Hebdo massacre

0:40:250:40:29

because I felt, as a cartoonist,

you couldn't avoid...

0:40:290:40:32

Cartoonist solidarity.

0:40:320:40:33

Yeah, exactly.

0:40:330:40:38

Among the other people

who are watching, reading

0:40:380:40:40

the jokes in the cartoon,

the Duke of Edinburgh,

0:40:400:40:42

you got a letter from him

saying he was a fan,

0:40:420:40:45

I gather?

0:40:450:40:46

I was amazed.

0:40:460:40:47

I was thrilled and

touched and amazed.

0:40:470:40:49

And you don't know when you are

drawing them who is looking.

0:40:490:40:51

It really was a high point.

0:40:510:40:53

So I was very, very moved.

0:40:530:40:54

Matt, you have given a lot

of people a lot of pleasure

0:40:540:40:57

for many, many years.

0:40:570:40:58

Thanks very much indeed.

0:40:580:40:59

That was fun.

0:40:590:41:00

Back to Brexit.

0:41:000:41:01

The key Cabinet Ministers have come

to some kind of agreement,

0:41:010:41:04

but it's very unclear

what it really means.

0:41:040:41:06

The International Trade

Secretary was there,

0:41:060:41:08

so presumably Liam Fox knows.

0:41:080:41:09

He joins me now.

0:41:090:41:13

You know but you're not going to

tell us?

That is a fair summary. Let

0:41:130:41:19

me ask you about this word everyone

is talking about, diverging.

It

0:41:190:41:23

seems a very abstract thing. What is

it?

What is important is Britain's

0:41:230:41:30

freedom to act differently in the

future. If you look at Britain's

0:41:300:41:36

trading performance in 2005-2006, 50

6% of Britain's exports went to the

0:41:360:41:43

EU. That is down to 43%. The reverse

is true of the rest of the world. We

0:41:430:41:49

are exporting water the rest of the

world outside of Europe. If you look

0:41:490:41:55

at what the IMF have said, they say

90% of global growth in the next

0:41:550:42:01

10-50 years, outside Europe. We need

to orientate ourselves

0:42:010:42:10

to orientate ourselves towards the

big economies. That is not to say

0:42:100:42:12

the EU will not remain a very

important export market for the UK,

0:42:120:42:14

but we need to be free to orientate

ourselves towards areas where there

0:42:140:42:17

will be more trade.

To do that, we

need to do things very differently?

0:42:170:42:21

We need to be free to take decisions

for ourselves. There has been talk

0:42:210:42:27

of customs unions, as we have heard

this morning. The key thing it puts

0:42:270:42:31

a big frontier around and it means

we all applied the same duties to

0:42:310:42:36

things coming in. First of all, we

would be like to be able to alter

0:42:360:42:41

those, we would like to cut some

duties that the EU currently applies

0:42:410:42:44

to developing countries.

I

absolutely understand the ambition,

0:42:440:42:49

what seems to me to be borderline

dishonest is to say we can have all

0:42:490:42:54

of that and a generous free trade

agreement with the EU. To use Donald

0:42:540:43:01

Tusk's word, pure illusion.

We will

wait and see where the negotiations

0:43:010:43:05

take us. If you are looking what is

in our interests, we have to look at

0:43:050:43:09

what is in the interests of the EU.

The EU has a massive surplus with

0:43:090:43:14

the UK on goods, something like £100

billion in the last year. Cannot

0:43:140:43:19

have that free trade agreement with

the UK would mean European exporters

0:43:190:43:25

would be at a huge disadvantage --

to not have that free trade

0:43:250:43:28

agreement.

Now we are saying we want

to divert from your laws where it

0:43:280:43:35

suits us, stick with it where it

suits us, thank you, and they see

0:43:350:43:39

that as a direct and serious threat

to their way of living in creating

0:43:390:43:44

this union, that is why they are all

unanimously and very clearly saying,

0:43:440:43:49

you are not going to cherry pick, if

you try, we will keep you out of our

0:43:490:43:54

markets.

We will see, that is the

opinion of the commission and I

0:43:540:43:58

understand why, they are the

guardians of the treaties, but

0:43:580:44:01

whether that is what the member

states will want. We will see as we

0:44:010:44:05

go through what governments do. It

is a question of putting political

0:44:050:44:11

ideology or this prosperity of your

people first and negotiations?

The

0:44:110:44:17

EU is a set menu restaurant, not a

cart, it is not possible for the UK

0:44:170:44:21

to be aligned to the EU when it

suits and not when it doesn't,

0:44:210:44:25

national leader saying what they are

saying in the centre as well

0:44:250:44:34

saying in the centre as well -- not

a la carte.

We will make our case

0:44:340:44:36

and we will make our case not just

on what is good that the UK but what

0:44:360:44:39

we also think is good for the EU, it

does not make any sense for the EU

0:44:390:44:44

to tie itself up in tariffs sending

more money to the UK Exchequer than

0:44:440:44:48

we would be sending in the other

direction, that does not make sense

0:44:480:44:53

for European businesses, consumers,

so we will ultimately have to sit

0:44:530:44:58

down, very hard-headed, and we

understand their starting position,

0:44:580:45:01

we will have to

0:45:010:45:06

we will have to look at what is in

mutual benefit and considering the

0:45:080:45:10

trends in the wider global economy,

the global economy is moving away

0:45:100:45:12

from hard-wired harmonisation to

equivalence.

We stopped off in the

0:45:120:45:14

same position and over time we

diverged where it suits us and there

0:45:140:45:19

will have to be somebody deciding

how it works and so on, but over

0:45:190:45:23

time, we will be a different kind of

economy and a different kind of

0:45:230:45:28

society, just tell me what kind of

difference to Britain you would like

0:45:280:45:31

to see in ten years time.

You are

asking me to accept the assumption

0:45:310:45:36

that it is what we have agreed.

It

is what you have agreed.

I do not

0:45:360:45:40

think it was Number 10, you will see

the full context when the Prime

0:45:400:45:46

Minister sets it out on Friday. I

want to see the UK able to make its

0:45:460:45:50

own decisions that allow us to vary

what we do in times of -- in terms

0:45:500:45:57

of tariffs. I want us to take the

opportunities with countries like

0:45:570:46:01

China to look at service agreements.

The put it into context for people

0:46:010:46:07

watching, by 2030, China will have

220 cities of more than 1 million

0:46:070:46:11

people, the whole of Europe will

have 35.

The scale of the change.

0:46:110:46:16

Jeremy Hunt says the central common

understanding there will be areas of

0:46:160:46:20

industry where we agreed to align

regulations with EU regulations, the

0:46:200:46:25

automotive industry is an obvious

one, but it will be voluntary. We

0:46:250:46:29

will have the right to choose to

diverged and we will not be

0:46:290:46:33

accepting changes and rules because

the EU decides. But as broadly

0:46:330:46:37

speaking where we are?

0:46:370:46:43

It's a great try, the third try, but

I will not be setting out what we

0:46:430:46:47

have agreed. We want to be war

makers in our own country, not rule

0:46:470:46:52

takers. As part of the single

market, you have to take the EU's

0:46:520:46:56

rules -- we want to be rule makers,

not rule takers.

Jeremy Corbyn Hunt

0:46:560:47:05

said that after the -- Jeremy Hunt

said that after the meeting, so is

0:47:050:47:13

that not what was said that at the

Prime Minister will set out what was

0:47:130:47:18

said on Friday.

Will any arrangement

that we enter into actually

0:47:180:47:27

that we enter into actually honour

that commitment.

You are saying we

0:47:270:47:30

will have full freedom to diverge if

we want to?

I am saying we will have

0:47:300:47:36

full freedom to have an independent

trade policy. This debate we are

0:47:360:47:43

having this morning on the customs

union. We are going to leave the

0:47:430:47:46

customs union, I think both parties

are agreed on that. Labour say they

0:47:460:47:51

want to join a customs union. What

do they mean by that? Is it like for

0:47:510:47:57

Turkey, where they have a customs

union for goods but not other

0:47:570:48:02

sectors? If it to do with freedom in

certain sectors and not others?

He

0:48:020:48:07

has been much clearer than you have

been and above all, this is about

0:48:070:48:12

the kind of society we are going to

be. Do you want to be more

0:48:120:48:18

deregulated economy and Peter, where

we can hire and fire people more

0:48:180:48:21

easily?

In terms of workers' rights,

no it's not. In terms of Digital the

0:48:210:48:28

economy, do we need to be able to

move with that? Yes, we do. Can we

0:48:280:48:35

do that in the European Union? No,

we can't, because France block it.

0:48:350:48:40

You are being very cuddly. You have

said it is intellectually

0:48:400:48:46

unsustainable to say that workers'

rights should be untouchable? Do you

0:48:460:48:50

still believe that?

We have come to

an agreement that we will maintain

0:48:500:48:56

those rights and I will tell you

why, because as part of the rollover

0:48:560:48:59

of the EU agreements that we are

party to, those rates are entrenched

0:48:590:49:03

in those and we said we would

respect those as we roll them over.

0:49:030:49:07

Isn't this the truth, that this is

the beginning of the journey? We

0:49:070:49:12

have this agreement and then we see

what happened though the term. Once

0:49:120:49:17

we can diverged, we can diverge as

much as we like. This is the

0:49:170:49:21

beginning of a journey to much less

regulated Britain. That is why the

0:49:210:49:24

EU is so concerned, because they

think we will be a Hong Kong or a

0:49:240:49:29

thing apart -- a Singapore on the

northern border.

We have to stop

0:49:290:49:38

seeing the EU as the centre of this.

We are talking to the rest of the

0:49:380:49:41

world. I do not begin this debate by

saying how much of the EU do I take

0:49:410:49:49

with me question mark I begin the

debate by saying what of Britain can

0:49:490:49:52

guarantee that we can and money in

the picture so that future

0:49:520:49:56

generations can pay for the public

services that want.

You heard Keir

0:49:560:50:03

Starmer talking about Labour backing

for these motions by Tory rebels.

0:50:030:50:07

They have the numbers to blow a

massive hole right through this

0:50:070:50:10

process. What is your message to

them?

Well, as a formal whip first

0:50:100:50:15

of all, I am always wary about

debates, but that aside, I would say

0:50:150:50:19

to my colleagues, Theresa May has

kept a broad range of views on the

0:50:190:50:29

European union for a reason.

Because

she loses power if she doesn't.

We

0:50:290:50:34

sat down, we looked at the issues,

we came to an agreement we are all

0:50:340:50:40

happy with and I think that when the

rest of the Parliamentary party

0:50:400:50:44

hears on Friday as the Prime

Minister said that out, they will

0:50:440:50:50

hear and I hope that they will have

an open mind and I think what they

0:50:500:50:55

he will deal with a lot of the

reservation they have had.

Why are

0:50:550:51:00

you delaying this? You are delaying

it because you are going to lose on

0:51:000:51:07

this amendment, aren't you?

We want

to persuade our colleagues on the

0:51:070:51:10

merits of the argument before we

take the bill forward and we are not

0:51:100:51:14

going to do it on the basis of what

suits the opposition. We will do it

0:51:140:51:17

on the passing of a legislator...

But you can't delayed much longer?

0:51:170:51:22

We need to get the legislation

through because if we don't have a

0:51:220:51:26

deal with European Union, we were to

be able to protect British business

0:51:260:51:30

from dumping, for example, or

massive subsidies. We need to

0:51:300:51:34

protect British business. The Labour

Party who voted against this bill

0:51:340:51:38

will have to think twice or they

leave British business like British

0:51:380:51:43

Steel unprotected.

So you are saying

it is our way or no way at all?

We

0:51:430:51:47

have set out what we need to do to

we believe on the result of the

0:51:470:51:53

referendum to have control over our

borders, laws and money and those

0:51:530:51:57

who do not want to honour those will

need to explain to the British

0:51:570:52:01

people why they don't feel they have

to do so.

OK, can we talk about the

0:52:010:52:05

transition period? Presumably if

this new idea is turned down flat by

0:52:050:52:10

the European Union, there will be no

transition period either?

Again, we

0:52:100:52:14

go into this negotiation on the

assumption that the European Council

0:52:140:52:18

on March one have a negotiation on

implementation as we will have an

0:52:180:52:22

agreement on how we move forward. As

I said earlier, I still think that

0:52:220:52:26

the rational way forward is for the

EU to come to an agreement on trade

0:52:260:52:31

with the United Kingdom that Finau

mutual interest. I don't see why we

0:52:310:52:34

wouldn't do that -- that is in our

mutual interest. I don't see why we

0:52:340:52:40

wouldn't do that.

Will you be able

to sign trade deals with the rest of

0:52:400:52:44

the world during the transition

period?

Yes, we would be able to

0:52:440:52:49

sign and agree but not implement,

because within the transition period

0:52:490:52:54

we couldn't implement something.

What we would want to negotiate and

0:52:540:52:57

signed so that we could implement at

the end of the period itself.

So you

0:52:570:53:01

would have a deal with Donald

Trump's America and Australia had

0:53:010:53:05

all the others before the end of the

transition period. It will all be

0:53:050:53:09

there and you will be up to sign it

and implemented immediately we

0:53:090:53:12

leave?

We have got 14 working groups

working with 21 countries at the

0:53:120:53:16

moment. We want to take those

negotiations as far as we countering

0:53:160:53:20

that limitation period. Not to do so

would leave the United Kingdom

0:53:200:53:26

incapable of making plans for our

final Brexit position and that not a

0:53:260:53:30

good position to be in.

Your

colleague Ben Bradley tweeted this

0:53:300:53:34

after saying Jeremy Corbyn had been

involved in spy allegations. I

0:53:340:53:40

accept I caused upset and distress

to Jeremy Corbyn by my country and

0:53:400:53:44

false allegations and he has given

money which has gone to a food bank

0:53:440:53:48

in his constituency.

Was that the

right thing to happen? Yes, if you

0:53:480:53:52

say something that is untrue, you

have to say so. As somebody who has

0:53:520:53:56

actually won a libel case that the

High Court, it's infinitely better

0:53:560:54:00

not to have to go through that.

He

said that Jeremy Corbyn had betrayed

0:54:000:54:05

his country. Gavin Williamson, your

successor as Defence Secretary, said

0:54:050:54:10

that Jeremy Corbyn met foreign spies

and that is a betrayal of his

0:54:100:54:13

country. Is that true?

Do you agree

with him? It is perfectly legitimate

0:54:130:54:20

for politicians and the media to ask

questions.

I wasn't asking that. Do

0:54:200:54:24

you think Jeremy Corbyn betrayed

this country?

I think the Labour

0:54:240:54:28

left during the Cold War where

extremely unhelpful to this country.

0:54:280:54:32

We believe that we should see off

communism, we should see off

0:54:320:54:36

tyranny.

I am asking you, did he

betray his country?

I don't think I

0:54:360:54:41

would use the word betray. But I

certainly think the Labour left were

0:54:410:54:49

idiots at that time.

They Gavin

Williamson said he betrayed his

0:54:490:54:54

country.

Should he apologise? I

think this is part of the lively

0:54:540:54:58

debate we have. It's not necessarily

the word I would use but I certainly

0:54:580:55:03

believe that Jeremy Corbyn and

others were very useful to the

0:55:030:55:09

Soviet Union during the Cold War.

I

will try more time -- one more time.

0:55:090:55:16

Should Gavin Williamson apologised

to Jeremy Corbyn for saying he

0:55:160:55:20

betrayed his country?

In the broader

sense, he was undermining the

0:55:200:55:23

country by siding with the Soviet

Union in that argument. Luckily it

0:55:230:55:27

was outside of the argument not

Jeremy Corbyn's that won the day.

So

0:55:270:55:31

you do think he betrayed his

country?

I think the Labour left

0:55:310:55:35

were certainly undermining the

security of the country by their

0:55:350:55:38

one-sided argument for a Soviet

style communism in that period.

I'm

0:55:380:55:45

still not sure whether you think

Gavin Williamson should apologise

0:55:450:55:49

not for saying that Jeremy Corbyn

betrayed his country?

I don't

0:55:490:55:52

believe that is necessary to

apologise when it is very clear that

0:55:520:55:56

Jeremy Corbyn and his fellow

left-wingers were underlining our

0:55:560:56:00

security which is the point that

Gavin Williamson was making.

Yes but

0:56:000:56:06

no but yes but no but is how we

leave.

0:56:060:56:10

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

0:56:100:56:13

Join us at 10am when we will be

asking if so to media is out of

0:56:130:56:21

control, parliament looks at and

Kylie Jenner wiped off 1 billion

0:56:210:56:29

from Snapchat. And organ donation.

See you at 10am on BBC One.

0:56:290:56:34

There were plenty of stars at last

Sunday's Baftas but the one

0:56:340:56:37

they all applauded was the rising

star that is Sheku Kanneh-Mason.

0:56:370:56:40

The BBC Young Musician of the Year

wowed the Albert Hall.

0:56:400:56:42

His debut album is just out.

0:56:420:56:44

Here he is with Bach's Cello Suite

Number One in G Major.

0:56:440:56:47

Until next week, goodbye.

0:56:470:56:53

Andrew Marr talks to international trade secretary Liam Fox, Shadow Brexit Secretary Sir Keir Starmer, author Michael Wolff and cartoonist Matt.

The newspapers are reviewed by Amanda Platell and June Sarpong. Plus music from cellist Sheku Kanneh-Mason.