18/03/2018 The Andrew Marr Show


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18/03/2018

Interviews with Boris Johnson MP, secretary of state for foreign and commonwealth affairs, and Vladimir Chizhov, Russian ambassador to the EU.


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LineFromTo

Good morning.

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As we shiver our way

through more Siberian weather,

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this weekend our relationship

with Russia is going

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through a truly dangerous crisis.

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It isn't just the alleged

assassinations - it's also

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about the strength of our alliances,

Britain's standing in the world.

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Or, to put it bluntly, in 2018,

do the Russians care

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how angry Britain gets?

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Boris Johnson, the Foreign

Secretary, is with us to talk

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about the Russian crisis,

and just possibly, one or two other

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issues of the moment.

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And I've been talking to one

of the most senior Russian

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diplomats, Vladimir Putin's

ambassador to the EU,

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Vladimir Chizhov.

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And in a week when Labour has been

sharply divided about its response

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to the Salisbury attack,

Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow

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Attorney General,

Baroness Shami Chakrabarti.

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So a very busy hour ahead.

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Before we get stuck into those

conversations however,

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reviewing the news this weekend,

Guardian columnist Owen Jones

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and Jane Moore from The Sun.

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But first the news

with Christian Fraser.

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Good morning.

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The Russian Ambassador

to the EU, Vladimir Chizhov,

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has suggested that the UK's

own research laboratory in Wiltshire

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could be the source of the nerve

agent used in the poisoning

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of a former Russian

spy in Salisbury.

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Here's our Diplomatic

Correspondent, James Robbins.

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Two weeks after the chemical attack

on Sergei and Yulia Skripal,

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Ambassador Chizhov said

there were no stockpiles whatsoever

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of nerve agents left in Russia.

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But then in an interview with

Andrew Marr he went a bit further.

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Asked how the chemical weapon came

to be used in Salisbury,

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Mr Chizhov suggested...

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When you have the nerve agent

or whatever, you check it

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against certain samples that

you retain in your laboratories.

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And Porton Down, as we now all know,

is the largest military facility

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in the United Kingdom that has been

dealing with chemical

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weapons research.

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And it's actually only eight

miles from Salisbury.

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You're not suggesting Porton Down

is responsible for this nerve agent?

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I don't know, I don't know,

I don't have evidence

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of anything having been used.

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As Britain continues to investigate

the chemical attack,

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the Foreign Office dismissed this

latest Russian account

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as absolute nonsense with not

an ounce of truth in it.

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A spokesperson said it's just

another futile attempt

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by the Russian state to divert

the story away from the facts that

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Russia has acted in flagrant breach

of its international obligations.

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James Robbins, BBC News.

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And you can see the full interview

with Tadini Chizhov later in this

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programme.

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The Foreign Secretary has

described Russia's closure

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of the British Council and Consulate

in St Petersburg as "futile".

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Writing in the Sun on Sunday,

Boris Johnson says the move

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will punish ordinary Russians

by depriving them of

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opportunities to learn English.

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The closures were part

of Russia's retaliation

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to sanctions imposed by the UK.

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And voting in Russia's

presidential election is taking

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place across the country,

with Vladimir Putin set to secure

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a fourth term in ofifce.

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Mr Putin,

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who voted this morning in Moscow,

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has run the country as President

or Prime Minister since 1999.

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Seven candidates are standing

against him, but polls

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place his nearest rival on just 7

per cent of the vote.

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Results are expected this evening.

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Snow and ice are causing difficult

conditions in parts of the UK

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after a new cold snap dubbed

the "mini beast from the east".

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Parts of eastern

England and Scotland

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have already had snow,

with more expected in

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the Midlands and Wales.

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Amber warnings have been issued

for north-west England,

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Yorkshire, the Midlands,

London and south-east

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England from the afternoon.

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People are being advised to avoid

travelling unless they have to.

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A group of MPs says the government

should consider delaying the date

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for leaving the EU if complex

issues remain unresolved.

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The Commons Exiting the EU Committee

also suggests the transition period

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should be extended if no agreement

is reached by October.

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However, eight pro-Brexit MPs

on the committee refused

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to back the report.

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That's all from me.

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The next news on BBC One

is at One o'clock.

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Back to you, Andrew.

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Thank you Christian.

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The front pages, one story

dominating, the Mail on Sunday, the

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Prime Minister's war on Vladimir

Hooton. And a similar story on the

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Sunday express. This is the Sunday

Telegraph. What Will Puddy near

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Putin do? The Sunday Times has

rather an alarming story. Will talk

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about that later. -- what will

Vladimir Putin do? And this is the

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Observer. Focusing on Cambridge

Analytica. Apparently harvesting

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data, preaching rules on Facebook

and what we will do our best to

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explain that to you during the

course of the review. At first, the

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Sunday Times. Jane.

This is complex

stuff, but what are cooler

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conversation I have been hearing all

week has been about Russia cutting

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off our gas and here we have the

Sunday Times blackout threat, saying

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the National Grid was put on alert

last week by spy chiefs saying this

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may happen and we have to prepare

for it. Which is alarming stuff in

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terms of this...

And it shows the

danger of the tit-for-tat

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escalation, we kick at 23, they kick

out 23 and get rid of the British

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Council.

Whether or not this happens

again, in terms of if there is

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anything we learn from this ever

evolving story is more money into

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defence, hopefully, but hopefully

into energy policies so we are not

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over an oil barrel or whatever!

Absolutely. This is not because we

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get lots and lots of gas from Russia

but Kos Russian cyber attacks to

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close down big chunks of

infrastructure. Owen Jones.

A

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fascinating story about Russian

oligarchs in London explaining about

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their business is remaining in

Russia, not permanently residing in

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the UK, mansions and palaces on by

offshore companies, hailing little

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in tax, very parasitical, not

contributing to the economy. It is

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the observer, my sister paper, I

apologise!

Absolutely. Anyone who

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has bid on watching the Mafia

understands the danger of dirty

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money washing to London but the

question is what can be done.

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Absolutely, but the Conservatives

have been doing is talking rhetoric

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which is light years away in

substance but the

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substance but the so-called ten back

to amendment. What Labour aren't

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suggesting is to have an oligarchy

levy which would raise about £1

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billion every single year of which

would target mansions bought by

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offshore trusts which are all over

London. I think the point I am

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making, if we want an effect of

response because these are oligarchs

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linked to a gangster receive in

Russia, they looted the assets of

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that country, they need to get them

where it hurts and it's not doing a

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theatrical kick out a diplomat here,

very good for the Russian elections,

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shall we have a sweepstake on the

elections? What would get the

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Russian regime is to go for the

economic centres and I have a say,

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it's interesting you get these

conspiracy theories about the Labour

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leadership linked to foreign powers,

they are actually demanding far

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tougher action on Russia and its

oligarchs by going for economic

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assets than the Tories are and they

will be the Tories are awash with...

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Should we be going for economic

assets based on the fact we are in

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this argument with Russia or should

we be rolling it out for all dirty

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money? It's not just Russian sat at

dirty money going through London.

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Both, it's the right thing to do, we

should be pretty ashamed of our

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great capital city, at the epicentre

so much money-laundering for many

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dubious regimes, these people are

not living here because they like

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the weather or the West End, they

come here because we have a regime

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that encourages that sort of money

and the Tories I'm afraid are

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linked...

It was happening under

Tony Blair as well, a lot of dirty

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money.

I don't think anyone could

compare this Labour Party to that

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Labour Party.

Let's move on, Boris

Johnson on the show...

He is written

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in the Sun on Sunday,

unsurprisingly, he is paid tribute

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to the many Labour MPs who have

condemned Vladimir Putin, he kicked

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out Jeremy Corbyn unsurprisingly as

the only person who refuses to join

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the show of solidarity and have

disappointed... Who is defending

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Jeremy Corbyn. I know, Peter

Hitchens no less, coming out for

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Jeremy Corbyn and saying Jeremy

Corbyn, the treatment by many

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politicians and those in the media

is disgraceful because he's doing

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what he's paid to do, which is to

lead the opposition. A powerfully

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written piece. He says he has a

better record on foreign policy than

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almost anyone in Parliament.

Which

is true, on Libya, he was one of

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only 30 MPs that voted against it,

anyone who spoke out was condemned

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as a Gaddafi stooge but I think the

pointy mixes imported, look at

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Russia, what does the regime do

phone talks about opposition,

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foreign links, foreign students,

linked to international terrorists.

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They depend on a kind of paranoia.

Increasingly what you have in this

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country, the enemies of the people

splashed on the front pages of

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newspapers, crushed the saboteurs,

the Leader of the Opposition smeared

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as a terrorist and the stooge of

foreign regimes is to delegitimise

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the opposition in a way that the

likes of Vladimir Putin doors.

The

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likes of Vladimir Putin should them

in the streets.

The culture of

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treating your opponents as traitors

is dangerous and all like-minded

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people...

He points out that he does

not like him sucking up to Sinn

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Fein.

Ruth Davidson the Conservative

has broken ranks are spawning and

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suggested I think the Sunday

Telegraph that we should close down

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Russian today because it's a

propaganda mouthpiece.

I think it's

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obviously a propaganda station,

closing it down would be a PR gift I

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think for the Russian regime, they

are clamping down on our press.

If

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we know it's a propaganda station

that sort of actually takes away its

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power.

Exactly. I think the real

question is to put to the Tories if

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they want to take action is will you

stop taking Russian link money,

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another question, Theresa May kibosh

to an inquiry into the poisoning of

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Alexander opinion good many years

ago because she said at a upset

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diplomatic relations with Russia,

why?

Marine A lit Binion go his

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widow was on the show last week,

very, very upset, to care a long

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time to get the public inquiry and

she thought the statement was not

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tough enough.

You would think maybe,

you probably too many James Bond

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movies but the upside of being a spy

is that you drive around in an Aston

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Martin and live in a large house

with the spoils of your work but we

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know from what we read that a lot of

these guys live in relative

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anonymity in a terraced house and

there is this guy, a Russian

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defector, saying he lives in fear of

his life, a KGB defector, halls in

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his shoes, living in complete

poverty, and the reporter David

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Collins says he's been abandoned by

Britain. And you do wonder, that

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sort of part of the problem, isn't

it? These guys are abominable to

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attack because we had just said,

thanks very much for what you did,

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get on with your life with no

security, money, nothing.

You could

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argue from the point of view of

Vladimir Putin he has everything he

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wants, a crisis ahead of the

election to maximise turnout, at the

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same time he is sending the message

he wants to send to all former KGB

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or FSB defectors, you will be

killed.

My fear of the diplomatic

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ratcheting, it does not cause any

harm to the regime, it is good

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propaganda, that is why the economic

assets or more powerful.

Mexican or

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powerful in his own country.

My

friends, the time has come, to try

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and explain the Cambridge Analytica

story.

Over to you. This is quite

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interesting, the harvesting of data

and doing detailed data profiling of

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voters and so on and it's been

linked to what happened in terms of

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Donald Trump's victory and breaks

it. My concern about that sometimes

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is it gets conspiratorially, I voted

to campaign but we did not lose the

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referendum.

It must have been a kind

of dodgy...

Exactly, but the real

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important thing is about data and

its protection and I think we need

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very clear laws in this country and

elsewhere that our data should be

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publicly owned, not be harvested by

private companies and used in

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devious ways, I think.

Let's salute

Ben Parkinson.

Ben Parkinson,

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catastrophically injured actually,

this is the mark of modern warfare,

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actually, these guys are surviving

whereas in the old days they would

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have died. And you would think it

would be absolutely a tick box for

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this country to look after people

like Ben Parkinson but he is having

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to sue the army or the MOD...

There

is a suggestion he will lose his

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wheelchair.

He is not being given

the right amount of support and

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financing to sustain his life as it

is now. Charities like Help For

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Heroes would help him but actually,

as a country, I love this government

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sends his brave people off to fight

and you get examples of innovative

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being cut.

I think we can all agree,

it's awful. Thank you both very

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much.

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And so to the weather.

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Well, this is completely absurd.

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It's the middle of March,

it feels like December

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and it's been snowing again.

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Something should be done -

where's national leadership

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when you need it!

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With all the bad news, Helen

Willetts in the weather studio.

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Just remember, please don't blame

the messenger for this one.

It is

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treacherous, we still have an amber

warning from the Met office for the

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snow and ice. It is coming down

thick and fast, the snow. You can

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see it here, this is all smoke, so

showers across eastern areas. This

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is the band of snow making its way

westwards so coming into the sunny

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parts of Cornwall and Devon in the

next few hours. We have had reports

0:15:460:15:51

of eight inches for smoke for parts

of south-east Wales, 15 centimetres

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or more, we could see up to 20 and

it's a slow-moving feature. Fewer

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showers this afternoon but they keep

packing in in the north and east.

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The best sunshine in Northern

Ireland and the west of Scotland but

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again it is bitterly cold. Adding on

the strong and gale force wind,

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clearly the wind chill will make it

feel even more bitter. Through this

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evening and overnight we have the

issue with snow over southern and

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western areas. Horrendous

conditions, but it should start to

0:16:250:16:31

ease in the north. Very icy to start

a Monday morning rush-hour but with

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high pressure starting to descend

southwards it cuts off the easterly

0:16:370:16:43

wind, cutting off the very cold air.

Temperatures will recover a little

0:16:430:16:47

tomorrow and it is more eyes then

snow we are concerned with tomorrow.

0:16:470:16:52

Some treacherous conditions for

0:16:520:16:53

snow we are concerned with tomorrow.

Some treacherous conditions for the

0:16:530:16:55

rest of the day.

I'm glad I decided to go for a nice

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walk in the country tomorrow.

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In the Commons this week,

Jeremy Corbyn warned Theresa May not

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to rush to judgement over

who was behind the Salisbury

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nerve agent attack.

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Much of the press, the Conservative

party, and a fair chunk

0:17:080:17:11

of his own backbenchers promptly

rushed to jump all over him

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as a Russian appeaser.

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But is that fair?

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After all, he was on the unpopular

side of the argument when it

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came to Iraq and Libya,

and he feels he was proved right.

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Shami Chakrabarti,

Shadow Attorney General and long

0:17:220:17:23

time supporter of the Labour Leader

is with me now.

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Good morning, can I start by asking

clearly, do you think Vladimir

0:17:260:17:28

Putin's government was responsible

for what happened?

What I think is

0:17:280:17:34

what Theresa May said, which is

there's a responsibility of the

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regime either in relation to having

lost control of this chemical

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weaponry or it is even more serious

and it is a malevolent directed

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attack and that's an important

distinction going forward because

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you are not going to get cooperation

from the state that is deliberately

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targeting you but you might get

cooperation, even from a slightly

0:17:540:17:58

embarrassed state that has lost

control, of its stocks of chemical

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weapons. That's an important

distinction and that the distinction

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Jeremy was making but also a

distinction Theresa May has made

0:18:060:18:10

herself.

When Boris Johnson said his

is overwhelmingly likely it is

0:18:100:18:16

Vladimir Putin himself...

If Boris

Johnson is saying that, he must be

0:18:160:18:20

saying it on the basis of new

evidence that Mrs May has not yet

0:18:200:18:24

spoken about.

So at the moment as

far as you're concerned, it is not

0:18:240:18:29

absolutely clear this was directed

by the Kremlin?

That's my

0:18:290:18:33

understanding, it is either a loss

of control, which needs to be sorted

0:18:330:18:40

out if that's the issue, or it is

what the Foreign Secretary is

0:18:400:18:44

suggesting but if he is suggesting

that, that would be on the basis of

0:18:440:18:48

new evidence that has not been

shared with Jeremy Corbyn and it's

0:18:480:18:51

not what Mrs May has said to date.

Because a lot of the world seems to

0:18:510:18:56

have taken the same view including

France and Germany, that they think

0:18:560:19:02

Putin was responsible for this.

Have

they really, said Putin was

0:19:020:19:09

responsible directly?

The Russian

state.

We need to be forensic about

0:19:090:19:15

this, the Russian state is

responsible for its stocks or

0:19:150:19:18

historic stocks of chemical weapons.

You are responsible whether you lose

0:19:180:19:23

control or personally direct

extrajudicial killings. But what

0:19:230:19:32

kind of culpability is it, that's

important.

Absolutely so if you are

0:19:320:19:38

not yet sure it was the Russian

state doing this themselves, why are

0:19:380:19:43

you supporting the expulsion of 23

diplomats?

Because it is apropos --

0:19:430:19:51

a proportionate response. I think

Jeremy was right to support that

0:19:510:20:00

proportion escalation but it will

not be tit for tat. Diplomacy has an

0:20:000:20:07

element of protocol and dancing

within it, but the crucial thing is

0:20:070:20:10

to go further now and that is John

McDonnell's suite of economic

0:20:100:20:16

measures. Also I think to pursue the

chemical weapons Convention and

0:20:160:20:21

potentially to ask for inspections,

and if necessary further action at

0:20:210:20:28

the international level.

Let's look

at the alternative theory which is

0:20:280:20:32

that this material leaked out or was

sold during the dissolution of the

0:20:320:20:36

Soviet Union from some Russian

facility and acquired by some Mafia

0:20:360:20:41

gang of some kind, have you any

evidence that happened at all?

All

0:20:410:20:45

we have is what we have been told

and what my Privy Council colleagues

0:20:450:20:48

have been told by the Government.

What we have been told is what Mrs

0:20:480:20:56

May has said, she's outlined the two

possibilities, that is the directed

0:20:560:21:01

attack from the Kremlin or the loss

of control.

Entirely supposition at

0:21:010:21:08

this stage.

We are just repeating

what we have been told because of

0:21:080:21:11

course we are not in Government but

we are repeating what has been

0:21:110:21:14

shared with us in security briefings

and what Mrs May has said.

We seem

0:21:140:21:21

to be in a tit-for-tat process now,

they have expelled 23 of our

0:21:210:21:28

diplomats and we will respond to

that, how concerned are you with

0:21:280:21:32

where we are going in this crisis?

I

would personally caution against

0:21:320:21:37

much more tit for tat in that way. I

agree with Jane Moore, something she

0:21:370:21:43

said earlier, which is isn't it

important to go for economic

0:21:430:21:49

measures that apply not just to

Russians but to dirty money on

0:21:490:21:53

non-taxpaying money regardless of

the nationality of those involved.

0:21:530:21:58

Quite a lot of your colleagues are

not happy at least with the tone of

0:21:580:22:02

what Jeremy Corbyn said. The defence

spokesperson has said Russia was

0:22:020:22:08

definitely responsible, Sir Keir

Starmer has said there should be no

0:22:080:22:12

ifs nor Bortz, Russia should be

called out.

And I agree with all of

0:22:120:22:15

that, I repeat Russia is looking

responsible whether it is negligent

0:22:150:22:24

responsibility and not keeping

control of these weapons or whether

0:22:240:22:27

this is an extrajudicial attack but

the distinguish between the two was

0:22:270:22:39

important going forward.

A lot of

Labour MPs were concerned enough to

0:22:390:22:43

put down motions, your colleague

Chris Williamson has called them

0:22:430:22:46

enemies and said they should be

deselected. This culture war in the

0:22:460:22:50

Labour Party is bubbling up, are you

concerned this is the moment the

0:22:500:22:55

crack cannot be bridged?

No, and I'm

here to make it clear I am

0:22:550:23:00

completely not just with Jeremy but

with near Griffith, Emily Formby and

0:23:000:23:05

Keir Starmer. In order to be safe

and to take control of these

0:23:050:23:14

chemical weapons and to eliminate

them from the world, you do need to

0:23:140:23:19

make a distinction between

negligence and taking back control

0:23:190:23:22

and something that can be even more

serious, which is directed tax

0:23:220:23:27

against people on to a tree.

Quite a

lot of your colleagues look at

0:23:270:23:32

Jeremy Corbyn's office and see what

he said about Russia in the past,

0:23:320:23:36

and they just don't feel he is

speaking for them.

I think people

0:23:360:23:42

shouldn't be directing attacks on

staff it is not fair to pick on

0:23:420:23:47

people who cannot speak for

themselves. Jeremy is the leader of

0:23:470:23:51

our party but he also has a very

strong team of Shadow Cabinet

0:23:510:23:56

colleagues, some of whom you have

cited, and we are all at one in the

0:23:560:24:00

approach I have just outlined.

When

it comes to people like the

0:24:000:24:04

father-in-law of the police officer

who was poisoned in Salisbury who

0:24:040:24:08

said he felt Jeremy Corbyn was

mealy-mouthed when it came to

0:24:080:24:12

Russia, what you say to people

outside of the bubble looking in

0:24:120:24:16

from the outside and just not quite

sure about the tone?

I think the

0:24:160:24:21

tone is also spun, whether it is

Jeremy Corbyn's tome, which has been

0:24:210:24:27

robust but also appropriately

measured, or whether it is the

0:24:270:24:31

Defence Secretary who won minute

talks about proportionality but the

0:24:310:24:34

next minute says go away, this is a

very febrile moment and people's

0:24:340:24:38

words gets bombed by the media. That

is understandable, I'm not going

0:24:380:24:44

ballistic about that but obviously

people are concerned, people are

0:24:440:24:48

worried and that's why there's a

responsibility on everyone to try to

0:24:480:24:53

get our tone right.

Do you trust our

intelligence on this?

I do.

So

0:24:530:24:59

there's no need to send Russians

evidence of the nerve agent used? We

0:24:590:25:04

can accept their word it was

Novichok?

Here is the thing about

0:25:040:25:09

sending agents beyond this country,

either to possibly the Russians if

0:25:090:25:13

they are asking for it...

Or the

organisation.

The reason for doing

0:25:130:25:21

that is because it is the protocol

of the Convention and I believe in

0:25:210:25:25

pursuing these investigations under

international law because that is

0:25:250:25:30

how you garner the broadest

international coalition to get

0:25:300:25:33

support going forward.

Do you think

in the last couple of days there has

0:25:330:25:37

been a McCarthyite atmosphere in

this country?

I don't want to make

0:25:370:25:43

things worse, I want to make things

better so I'm not going to escalate

0:25:430:25:46

my language at this point if you

will forgive me.

Jeremy Corbyn

0:25:460:25:51

suggested there was McCarthyism

about and he has had a lot of abuse

0:25:510:25:58

hurled at him for this.

He's had a

lot of abuse hurled at him for a

0:25:580:26:02

very long time and I try to learn

from his dignity under fire.

There's

0:26:020:26:06

reports today of a new group of

Labour MPs called Start Again or

0:26:060:26:13

something, who are very exercised

about this shoe and others, are you

0:26:130:26:18

concerned we are heading towards a

position where the Labour Party

0:26:180:26:22

might split?

I'm not too concerned.

People have always had their

0:26:220:26:27

democratic prerogative to experiment

with new parties and there's been

0:26:270:26:30

talk in the Westminster bubble about

this.

It has gone on and on and

0:26:300:26:34

never happened but at some point it

might.

In past decades that have

0:26:340:26:38

been experiments in new party but

the Labour Party is a very fine and

0:26:380:26:45

broad coalition, and I actually

think it represents the new

0:26:450:26:49

moderation in British politics like

taking on dirty money, like

0:26:490:26:53

protecting people's jobs and

services. I think I am a moderate

0:26:530:26:57

and pretty much always have been.

All right, thank you for talking to

0:26:570:27:03

us.

0:27:030:27:04

Coming up here a little later, the

Sunday Politics with Sarah Smith.

0:27:040:27:07

She will be discussing Russia

with the Foreign Office Minister Sir

0:27:070:27:10

Alan Duncan and she'll also be

joined by Labour's Yvette Cooper,

0:27:100:27:13

chair of the Home Affairs

Select Committee.

0:27:130:27:14

That's the Sunday Politics

here on BBC One at 11 o'clock.

0:27:140:27:17

So far, the Russian response

to Theresa May's expulsion

0:27:170:27:19

of Russian personnel has been

relatively cautious

0:27:190:27:21

and proportional.

0:27:210:27:22

But it's come alongside a lot

of brutal mockery of Britain

0:27:220:27:24

from official Kremlin outlets.

0:27:240:27:26

Senior Russian spokesmen have

by and large kept off the airwaves

0:27:260:27:29

but I was able to catch up

with Mr Putin's Ambassador

0:27:290:27:31

to the European Union,

Vladimir Chizhov,

0:27:310:27:33

in Brussels this week.

0:27:330:27:36

Theresa May, the British Prime

Minister, and other Nato allies have

0:27:360:27:38

all said that Russia was responsible

for the nerve attack in Salisbury.

0:27:380:27:42

Were you?

0:27:420:27:43

Highly likely, they said.

0:27:430:27:48

Russia...

0:27:480:27:49

and I can assure you without

using the phraseology

0:27:490:27:53

like highly likely,

0:27:530:27:55

which has become very popular these

days, Russia had

0:27:550:27:57

nothing to do with it.

0:27:570:28:01

Boris Johnson, the Foreign

Secretary, has gone even further

0:28:010:28:03

and he said it's very,

very likely that Vladimir Putin

0:28:030:28:05

himself ordered this attack.

0:28:050:28:11

Well, that rests with

the responsibility of Boris Johnson,

0:28:110:28:13

who I believe is acting

in an inappropriate manner,

0:28:140:28:18

which doesn't give him credit.

0:28:180:28:22

This was an attack on a man widely

regarded in Russia as a traitor,

0:28:220:28:27

using a chemical agent regarded

as being made in Russia

0:28:270:28:31

and that is why many people

in Britain say it is overwhelmingly

0:28:310:28:34

likely the Russians

must be responsible.

0:28:340:28:36

And if not the Russians, who?

0:28:360:28:40

Well, this whole case is based

on assumptions, based on suspicions

0:28:400:28:45

fuelled by emotions.

0:28:450:28:48

You rightly referred

to Mr Skripal as a traitor,

0:28:480:28:52

as a defector, but you know,

I can assure you he is almost

0:28:520:28:58

forgotten in Russia.

0:28:580:29:00

He has been living in Britain

for eight years now.

0:29:000:29:05

Before that, I think

I should stress the point,

0:29:050:29:08

he was officially pardoned by

a presidential decree, which means

0:29:080:29:13

that whatever one can think

of him in the moral sense,

0:29:130:29:21

but from the legal point of view,

the Russian state have

0:29:220:29:25

nothing against him.

0:29:250:29:27

And also I should add,

his daughter, Yulia,

0:29:270:29:29

is a Russian citizen.

0:29:290:29:36

That's why, among the many

violations by the British

0:29:360:29:41

authorities in this case,

I will cite that it's a blatant

0:29:410:29:46

violation of the bilateral consular

convention by not allowing Russian

0:29:460:29:51

diplomats and consular officials

access to a Russian citizen

0:29:510:29:56

currently in hospital.

0:29:560:30:04

And the Russian state has now

announced a criminal investigation

0:30:110:30:17

into the attack on Yulia Skripal and

Mr Bush called.

Certainly the

0:30:170:30:26

Russian investigated committee will

request co-operation from the

0:30:260:30:36

British according to international

law and bilateral agreements and the

0:30:360:30:38

Russian side through the embassy in

London requested access to evidence,

0:30:380:30:45

if there is any, to the nerve agent

from the very beginning, from the

0:30:450:30:51

first day but was flatly refused. In

spite of that being, the obligation

0:30:510:30:58

on the British of the international

convention on prohibition of

0:30:580:31:01

chemical weapons.

This is a very

obscure nerve agent, not understood

0:31:010:31:08

around the world, has Russia ever

produced this agent Novichok? No.

0:31:080:31:13

Never? No. Russia will and has

stopped the production of any

0:31:130:31:20

chemical agents back in 92, you

cannot talk about chemical agents

0:31:200:31:25

produced by Russia, all that had

been produced previously was

0:31:250:31:30

produced by the Soviet Union, in

1992, but then resident Boris

0:31:300:31:34

Yeltsin signed a decree stopping all

production and according to the

0:31:340:31:43

International Convention on the

Prohibition of chemical weapons last

0:31:430:31:45

year in 2017 Russia destroyed all

its stockpiles, there is only one

0:31:450:31:51

country today which has not done so

which is still retaining its

0:31:510:31:55

chemical stockpiles and that is the

United States of America.

Can I be

0:31:550:32:01

absolutely clear then, Russia has no

stop violence of any nerve agent

0:32:010:32:05

whatever?

Indeed, no stop us

whatsoever.

Then there is the

0:32:050:32:10

question how did this agent come to

be used in Salisbury? It has been

0:32:100:32:15

suggested for instant during the

dissolution of the Soviet Union some

0:32:150:32:18

of this agent he had been stolen or

sold and ended up in the hands of

0:32:180:32:23

criminal gangs or other state

parties?

What is your view? Well,

0:32:230:32:28

why don't you ask yourself the

question, how come the British

0:32:280:32:34

authorities so quickly managed to

designate the nerve agent used as

0:32:340:32:40

something called Novichok. It can

only mean that

0:32:400:32:46

only mean that they had a

standard...

It has a signature, I

0:32:470:32:50

think, a chemical signature.

When

you have a nerve agent or whatever,

0:32:500:32:56

you check it against certain samples

that you retaining your

0:32:560:32:58

laboratories. And Porton Down as we

now all know is the largest military

0:32:580:33:05

facility in the United Kingdom that

has been dealing with chemical

0:33:050:33:09

weapons research. And it's actually

only eight miles from Salisbury.

0:33:090:33:17

You're not suggesting that Porton

Down is responsible for this nerve

0:33:170:33:21

agent?

I don't know, I don't know, I

don't have evidence of anything

0:33:210:33:25

being used and of course, I should

add, perhaps, that I exclude the

0:33:250:33:34

possibility of any stockpiles of any

chemical weapons fleeing Russia

0:33:340:33:39

after the collapse of the Soviet

Union. There was certain specialists

0:33:390:33:45

including scientists who today claim

to have been responsible for

0:33:450:33:50

creating some nerve agent that have

been whisked out of Russia... They

0:33:500:33:57

defected.

Currently residing in the

United Kingdom. They defected, they

0:33:570:34:01

said it was made and it was tested

and used in Uzbekistan and therefore

0:34:010:34:06

it was around and could have been

stolen, sold on.

I will not comment

0:34:060:34:10

on their words but they were

involved in certain research of

0:34:100:34:18

various chemical weapons, yes. In

the Soviet use.

In her first

0:34:180:34:25

response Theresa May has expelled 23

Russian citizens, were they spies?

0:34:250:34:29

Of course not, they were diplomats.

Or there any Russian spies in

0:34:290:34:33

Britain?

Come on! You are not asking

the right person, perhaps. Art there

0:34:330:34:41

any British spies in Russia?

What

are the other possibilities that

0:34:410:34:48

Britain has talked about, the

Magnitsky act to freeze the assets

0:34:480:34:51

of various people who had been using

London to wash money through London,

0:34:510:34:55

individuals, in some respects I

would imagine you would welcome

0:34:550:34:57

that?

I wouldn't care about the fate

of money being laundered in London,

0:34:570:35:06

of any other origin.

What about the

suggestion that members of the Royal

0:35:060:35:12

family and politicians and so forth

and come to Russia for the World

0:35:120:35:16

Cup? The World Cup was going to be a

very big moment for Russia, is this

0:35:160:35:21

a blow to Russia?

Well I'm sure

those members of the Royal family

0:35:210:35:25

who had been planning to come will

be sorry hearing that from their own

0:35:250:35:29

government.

It's been a very

difficult time, relations between

0:35:290:35:35

Russia and Britain, a whole series

of issues, alleged Russian

0:35:350:35:39

involvement in elections in Europe,

America, Britain as well, tensions

0:35:390:35:44

over the Baltic states, Ukraine and

so forth, looking ahead, what do you

0:35:440:35:48

see for Britain's relations with

Russia after we leave the EU?

Well,

0:35:480:35:54

at 1.I said to a British colleague

of mine I was looking to a bright

0:35:540:36:03

future with British Russian

relations after Brexit cos Britain

0:36:030:36:08

would no longer be confined by EU

sanctions or anything like that.

0:36:080:36:14

Somehow, he did not support that

view.

This period, there is almost

0:36:140:36:22

universal anger about British

Russian relationships in Britain at

0:36:220:36:25

the moment.

Gavin Williamson. And in

Russia too.

Gavin Williamson the new

0:36:250:36:31

Defence Secretary said Russia will

be thinking how can we cause so much

0:36:310:36:34

pain in Britain, damage its economy,

with its infrastructure apart, cause

0:36:340:36:39

thousands and thousands of deaths

and create total chaos within the

0:36:390:36:42

UK? That is the perspective of a

senior British Minister about your

0:36:420:36:47

country.

If I were a member

correctly he also said the wording,

0:36:470:36:51

Russia should shut up and go away,

let me assure that Russia is not

0:36:510:36:56

going to shut up and will certainly

not go away.

There has been a sort

0:36:560:37:00

of sense in Britain that Russia was

almost mocking us about this

0:37:000:37:05

terrible attack. Some of your...

Have talked about the climate being

0:37:050:37:13

unhealthy parishioner defectors,

falling out of holdings, defectors

0:37:130:37:19

eating poison and so on, almost as

if people in Moscow regard this as a

0:37:190:37:24

family matter.

It's not a funny

matter and the latest news I heard

0:37:240:37:27

from Moscow, the launch of two

criminal investigations by the

0:37:270:37:35

Russian investigative committee on

damage to the health of the Russian

0:37:350:37:39

citizen, Yulia Skripal and the

unexplained, mysterious death of

0:37:390:37:46

Nikolai Glushkov.

To be clear,

Russian investigators will come to

0:37:460:37:54

British police shortly and said we

want access to this investigation,

0:37:540:37:57

to work alongside you phone it comes

to what happened in Salisbury and we

0:37:570:38:01

would like to see the nerve agent

used and we would like to see proper

0:38:010:38:05

access?

Of course they will. First

in correspondence and then perhaps

0:38:050:38:10

should a personal visit be required

they will come. And actually Russia

0:38:100:38:15

has offered to call operate on the

Salisbury incident from the very

0:38:150:38:18

outset but we did not get any answer

whatsoever from the Foreign Office

0:38:180:38:23

or any other government agency.

0:38:230:38:27

Listening to that is the Foreign

Secretary, Boris Johnson.

0:38:270:38:32

Welcome. We have to be very clear

and colourful about the evidence in

0:38:320:38:36

this very serious matter, you have

said it is overwhelmingly likely

0:38:360:38:38

that Vladimir Putin is responsible,

the ambassador brush that aside, why

0:38:380:38:45

do you say that?

We gave the

Russians a very clear choice on the

0:38:450:38:49

Prime Minister said on Monday as I

said to the Russian ambassador to

0:38:490:38:52

the UK, either help us to understand

how the stockpiles of Novichok have

0:38:520:38:59

gone missing and how some of that

could have turned up on the streets

0:38:590:39:02

of Wiltshire in this way or else I'm

afraid we will be forced as the

0:39:020:39:07

prime ministers said in the House of

Commons, to draw the conclusion as

0:39:070:39:11

we did in the case of Alexander

Litvinenko, that the Trail of

0:39:110:39:16

culpability leads inexorably to the

Kremlin and I think listening to the

0:39:160:39:22

Russian response, listening again to

the response of the Russian

0:39:220:39:27

ambassador to be you with his

satirical suggestion that this was

0:39:270:39:32

done by UK agents from Porton Down,

this is not the response of a

0:39:320:39:38

country that really believes itself

to be innocent, this is not the

0:39:380:39:41

response of a country that wants to

engage in getting to the bottom of

0:39:410:39:45

that.

The Prime Minister told the

House of Commons the red two

0:39:450:39:51

possible explanations either this

was a deliberate attack by the

0:39:510:39:53

Russian state or else the Novichok

had come out and become, had got

0:39:530:40:01

into the hands of criminal gangs,

you seem to be excluding the latter?

0:40:010:40:06

Well, we gave the Russians every

opportunity to come up with an

0:40:060:40:10

alternative hypothesis such as the

one that you have just described and

0:40:100:40:13

they haven't and their response has

been a sort of mixture of smug

0:40:130:40:19

sarcasm and denial, obfuscation and

delay. So what we are doing, on the

0:40:190:40:26

Novichok and the nerve agent, what

we will do is tomorrow, technical

0:40:260:40:33

experts from the Organisation for

the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons

0:40:330:40:35

will come from the Hague to the UK,

we will share the samples with them,

0:40:350:40:40

they will then be tested by the most

reputable possible international

0:40:400:40:44

laboratories. And I might just say

in response to the ointment from the

0:40:440:40:53

Russian ambassador, about the

Russian stockpiles of chemical

0:40:530:40:57

weapons, we had evidence within the

last ten years that Russia has not

0:40:570:41:02

only been investigating the delivery

of nerve agents for the purposes of

0:41:020:41:07

assassination but it has also been

creating and stop piling Novichok.

0:41:070:41:11

That was a direct like that I was

being given?

You will get that and

0:41:110:41:16

that is exactly the tactics that we

have come to expect from Russia over

0:41:160:41:21

the last few years. One of the

things that has really struck me in

0:41:210:41:26

the course of the last few days as

we've been talking to friends and

0:41:260:41:30

colleagues around the world, is the

difference between their reaction

0:41:300:41:34

this time and their reaction to the

death of Alexander Litvinenko. And

0:41:340:41:41

then back in 2006, there was a much

more hesitation, watch more people

0:41:410:41:45

saying perhaps it could be rogue

elements of the Russian state and so

0:41:450:41:49

on and so forth. Now you have people

such as Nikki Haley, the US

0:41:490:41:54

ambassador to the UN, with her very

powerful denunciation of Russia and

0:41:540:41:58

my colleague on Friday in London

pointing the finger squarely at

0:41:580:42:06

Russia and I think what that

indicates is the change in people's

0:42:060:42:12

attitudes towards Russia because of

the experience of the last ten

0:42:120:42:15

years.

A change in attitude, their

attitude to us, they don't really

0:42:150:42:19

care any more?

I think it's obvious

they do care and I think that is one

0:42:190:42:26

of the reasons that the UK is as it

were, in the Kremlin's Ross House

0:42:260:42:31

because they look at what's ours and

they think, this is the country that

0:42:310:42:36

time and again has called Russia

out, has stood up to Russia when it

0:42:360:42:41

comes to Crimea, to what they'd been

doing in Syria and just to get back

0:42:410:42:44

to the point I was making just now

about... Go on.

You absolutely sure

0:42:440:42:53

it's this mysterious thing called

Novichok? We talk about it all the

0:42:530:42:57

time, how are we sure?

I obviously,

to the best of our knowledge, this

0:42:570:43:04

is a Russian-made nerve agent that

falls within the category Novichok,

0:43:040:43:09

made only by Russia and to give back

to the point about the international

0:43:090:43:14

reactions which is so fascinating,

people have all now experienced

0:43:140:43:19

whether it's in America, Germany,

France, to say nothing of the Baltic

0:43:190:43:26

countries, they have all experienced

Russian meddling, malign, disrupt

0:43:260:43:33

Russian behaviour over the last

years, they can see a country going

0:43:330:43:36

in the wrong direction and that is

why they are so inclined now not to

0:43:360:43:40

give Russia the benefit of the doubt

and to stand shoulder to shoulder

0:43:400:43:44

with the UK.

Do you think given that

background that our defence spending

0:43:440:43:53

is enough, Tobias Ellwood says it's

no longer enough, what happened to

0:43:530:43:56

the dollar but the threat we now

face from the east, we need to

0:43:560:44:01

protect ourselves better as a

country than we have been doing and

0:44:010:44:04

we need to spend more?

We are one of

the biggest spenders on defence in

0:44:040:44:09

Natal, as you know, we contribute

about 20% to European defence

0:44:090:44:13

spending already and it's quite

right we should spend well on our

0:44:130:44:18

defences and...

The argument is we

should be spending more than the

0:44:180:44:21

target.

We must make sure we are

adequately and properly defended and

0:44:210:44:24

that is the case that I make and

other... And other ministers

0:44:240:44:30

certainly have been making. When it

comes to the defences of this

0:44:300:44:36

country, we are also ensuring that

we are protected against cyber

0:44:360:44:40

attack and attacks on the critical

national infrastructure and other

0:44:400:44:44

such threats.

We read today there

has been increased worry about

0:44:440:44:49

attacks on the infrastructure,

electricity supply, nuclear power

0:44:490:44:52

stations, water and so forth, is

that something the government is

0:44:520:44:55

worried about at the moment?

As I

say something obviously that is a

0:44:550:45:00

threat that has changed over the

last few years, cyber attacks are a

0:45:000:45:05

relatively new development but we

have the national cyber Security

0:45:050:45:08

Centre, we have fantastic

preparations against such threats.

0:45:080:45:15

Do you think the death of Nikolai

Glushkov is connected to this

0:45:170:45:22

affair?

I have no evidence of any

connection.

The ambassador also said

0:45:220:45:27

the Russians are prosecuting the

deaths of the daughter of Mr Skripal

0:45:270:45:32

and Mr Glushkov because they are

both Russian citizens, will they get

0:45:320:45:41

cooperation?

We have wanted

co-operation from the Russians in

0:45:410:45:44

this matter for some days and we

have been greeted with a lot of

0:45:440:45:48

sarcasm, and I think plainly an

attitude of a country that is

0:45:480:45:54

guilty. If we can genuinely be of

assistance to the Russians in

0:45:540:45:57

getting to the bottom of what has

happened, we will do that. I doubt

0:45:570:46:02

they are entirely serious.

What if

Russian investigators arrive in

0:46:020:46:08

London and say we are interested in

the attack on Yulia and the death of

0:46:080:46:13

Mr Skripal, we would like access to

the investigation we are conducting,

0:46:130:46:17

they will be given that?

We will do

everything we can to assist in

0:46:170:46:22

getting to the bottom of what has

happened. Whether it is appropriate

0:46:220:46:27

to have Russian investigators on UK

soil engaged in trying to get to the

0:46:270:46:31

bottom of this, I somewhat doubt,

but what we will certainly do...

0:46:310:46:36

Help as far as we can.

We will

ensure that, I'm afraid the

0:46:360:46:42

ambassador was completely misleading

about the UK's obligations under the

0:46:420:46:47

organisation for the Prohibition of

chemical weapons, we have followed

0:46:470:46:50

those obligations to the letter and

what we will be doing now is getting

0:46:500:46:54

the samples and making sure they are

available to technical experts to

0:46:540:46:58

allow them to elucidate exactly what

they are. I think you would agree,

0:46:580:47:04

they are a rather more reliable and

I think the British people have more

0:47:040:47:10

confidence and they do than in any

Russian investigation.

Let's move on

0:47:100:47:14

to what happens next. We kicked out

23 of their people we regard as

0:47:140:47:19

spies, they kicked out 23 of hours,

tit for tat, is that that?

There is

0:47:190:47:26

a normal symmetry in these

diplomatic affairs and you would

0:47:260:47:31

expect that.

Is it going to go

further than that symmetry is what

0:47:310:47:35

I'm asking.

We will discuss this

week what further measures, if any,

0:47:350:47:40

we may want to take what I would

just stress this. The UK is already

0:47:400:47:46

pursuing a number of measures,

hardening our borders, of course

0:47:460:47:52

pursuing the diplomatic expulsions,

but we are also going to be using

0:47:520:47:56

the tools that are available to us

under existing statute to pursue

0:47:560:48:02

those who may have corruptly

obtained their wealth. We were going

0:48:020:48:08

further with the Magnitsky clause in

the sanctions Bill so all these

0:48:080:48:12

things are moving forward.

Two weeks

ago the Labour Party put down

0:48:120:48:17

Magnitsky act amendments and the

Conservatives voted against them,

0:48:170:48:21

why was that?

There were

deficiencies in the way the

0:48:210:48:24

amendments were drafted which didn't

make them suitable but we are

0:48:240:48:26

working to get provisions that will

allow those who have been

0:48:260:48:31

responsible for gross violations of

human rights to be prosecuted and

0:48:310:48:34

not to be able to come to this

country.

To be clear, as a

0:48:340:48:38

government you are going to go after

named individuals who have in the

0:48:380:48:42

past been able to wash their money

through London, invest in housing

0:48:420:48:46

and so forth, and grab their money?

We live in a democracy under the

0:48:460:48:50

rule of law, it's not open to me as

a politician to direct the

0:48:500:48:56

law-enforcement agencies to draft

and such, that's what they do

0:48:560:48:59

Russia. We have statute now since

April last year under the criminal

0:48:590:49:04

finance act to do this. We have said

that where people have obtained

0:49:040:49:14

wealth by corruption, and where we

can see a link with the Kremlin,

0:49:210:49:23

with Vladimir Putin, it may be

possible to have unexplained wealth

0:49:230:49:25

orders and other sanctions on those

individuals, and that work is going

0:49:250:49:28

on now. You would not expect me to

reveal names.

Labour says part of

0:49:280:49:31

the Conservative hesitation on this

is that you as a party have been

0:49:310:49:35

taking far too much Russian money

for far too long. There's the

0:49:350:49:44

for far too long. There's the case

of one person who peddle hundred and

0:49:440:49:46

£60,000 to have a game of tennis

with you. Did that game take place?

0:49:460:49:53

Can I make a point about this

whole...

You are going to say good

0:49:530:49:59

Russians and bad Russians, I know

that. I was going to say back to you

0:49:590:50:03

that this lady's husband was a

minister of Vladimir Putin and given

0:50:030:50:07

an award by Vladimir Putin so he was

close to the regime, and you as a

0:50:070:50:12

party were prepared to take £160,000

from her so she could have a game of

0:50:120:50:18

tennis with Boris Johnson.

If there

is evidence of corruption in the way

0:50:180:50:25

that gentleman obtained his wealth,

then it is well within... It is

0:50:250:50:28

possible to deprive him of his

wealth, with an unexplained wealth

0:50:280:50:35

order. That is a matter for the

authorities, not for me, and it's

0:50:350:50:42

important that because people are

e-mailing me from Russia, who feel

0:50:420:50:45

that Russians...

I agree with that.

Russians themselves are in no way

0:50:450:50:55

the object of our wrath.

Did the

tennis game actually happen?

It did.

0:50:550:51:06

Do you know enough about the origins

of that money? And she has now paid

0:51:060:51:10

£30,000 to sit next to Gavin

Williamson and have dinner with him,

0:51:100:51:16

I happy about that?

Unless evidence

is produced against individual

0:51:160:51:21

Russians, I don't think the entire

nation should be...

It is a

0:51:210:51:28

difficult balance I absolutely agree

with that but...

There are many

0:51:280:51:33

Russians who have gone to this

country, made their lives here and

0:51:330:51:37

contributed magnificently to our

culture and society. They feel

0:51:370:51:41

threatened...

I understand that, but

on the other hand, let me remind you

0:51:410:51:51

what the widow of Alexander

Litvinenko said, she said the

0:51:510:51:53

Conservatives need to be selective

who they are friends with. When you

0:51:530:51:57

allow people with money to come to

your country and make a business,

0:51:570:52:00

you need to be sure what kind of

money these people bring to your

0:52:000:52:04

country. All I'm saying is it is

very difficult to know the source of

0:52:040:52:09

the money you take.

That's why we

have the national Crime Agency, we

0:52:090:52:14

have the national economic crime

unit. That's what they are there to

0:52:140:52:18

do. They are there to get to the

bottom of whether somebody's wealth

0:52:180:52:22

has been obtained corruptly or not

but it is important we do not allow

0:52:220:52:29

my as of suspicion about all

Russians in London and indeed all

0:52:290:52:33

which Russians in London to be

created. Some of them may have

0:52:330:52:39

obtained their wealth by... And I

have to say it is quite

0:52:390:52:45

extraordinary at a time when you

have two people lying gravely ill in

0:52:450:52:54

hospital, in Salisbury, when a

police officer is still not out of

0:52:540:53:00

hospital, for the fire somehow to be

turned on Conservative Party

0:53:000:53:03

funding. To the best of my

knowledge, all possible checks have

0:53:030:53:07

been made and they will continue to

be made.

You will have seen the

0:53:070:53:11

story this morning about Cambridge

and this data collection company in

0:53:110:53:15

trouble for harvesting information

from Facebook and using it to target

0:53:150:53:19

potential voters. They were involved

in the Brexit referendum and

0:53:190:53:23

American elections as well, they

have been summoned back to the House

0:53:230:53:27

of Commons, do you think there

should be a proper investigation

0:53:270:53:31

into this?

I've got to be honest, it

is not something I have focused on

0:53:310:53:35

but again, the general point, if

there is some crime, I'm sure the

0:53:350:53:44

law will follow its course.

The

Brexit select committee has

0:53:440:53:48

suggested we may have to delay the

trigger of Article 50 because we are

0:53:480:53:51

not ready, what is your response?

I

don't think that is true and we are

0:53:510:53:56

making great progress in the

negotiations and I hope we will get

0:53:560:53:59

a good deal on implementation period

in March. House of Commons voted

0:53:590:54:05

overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50

and let's get on with it.

Another

0:54:050:54:08

report today says our border

arrangements simply won't be ready

0:54:080:54:12

in time, are you concerned the thing

is going to slip?

No, I think what

0:54:120:54:19

most people in this country want,

whether they voted to leave or

0:54:190:54:23

remain, they want us to get on with

it and do it.

Why did you write a

0:54:230:54:27

letter to the Prime Minister saying

there might be a hard Irish border?

0:54:270:54:34

What I said, I don't wish to...

I

have the quote here. It is wrong to

0:54:340:54:40

see our task is maintaining no

border. Even if the hard border is

0:54:400:54:44

reintroduced we would expect 95% of

goods to pass... So you used the

0:54:440:54:50

phrase hard border twice because

it's interesting...

It's the policy

0:54:500:54:57

of the Government not to have a hard

border and that's what we will

0:54:570:55:00

produce. The Prime Minister in her

speech produced a number of

0:55:000:55:07

solutions for the avoidance of a

hard border and that's what I was

0:55:070:55:11

advocating.

You said you were going

to publish the letter, when are you

0:55:110:55:16

going to do that?

We do not... It's

up to the media organisations that

0:55:160:55:22

leaked a part of it, if they choose

to...

You said you were going to.

0:55:220:55:29

You have changed your mind.

We do

not as a matter of course respond to

0:55:290:55:33

leaks by putting holding in the

public domain but I can assure you

0:55:330:55:37

the letter said the exact opposite

of what you claimed it said.

I have

0:55:370:55:43

just read a bit of it, these are

words and words mean things and so

0:55:430:55:46

forth.

As it happens they don't mean

what you want them to mean.

The

0:55:460:55:53

Government's aim should be to stop

this border from big coming

0:55:530:55:56

significantly harder -- from

becoming significantly harder.

0:55:560:56:04

Publish it!

What I was saying is

clearly in line with what the

0:56:040:56:09

Government as a whole has been

saying for a long time which is

0:56:090:56:12

there is no need to have a hard

border. There are ways of avoiding

0:56:120:56:16

it, as the Prime Minister said in

her excellent Mansion House speech

0:56:160:56:21

and I suggest you quote that and

read that.

OK, do you think Russia

0:56:210:56:28

intervened in the Brexit referendum?

I have no evidence of that.

You said

0:56:280:56:33

in the past you don't think they

successfully intervened.

I have no

0:56:330:56:38

evidence they successfully

intervened, no.

On last Brexit

0:56:380:56:42

related question, we haven't spoken

for little while, as one of the

0:56:420:56:48

great cheerleaders for Brexit, when

you look at what's happening now and

0:56:480:56:50

the fact the European Court will

have some influence on us after we

0:56:500:56:54

leave, that we will be paying money

into some agencies and the timescale

0:56:540:57:00

of this, are you completely cheerful

it has turned out as you wanted?

I

0:57:000:57:06

do, I think the Mansion House speech

was a great step forward and I think

0:57:060:57:11

it shows exactly the type of deal we

want to get. We are not going to

0:57:110:57:17

have the influence of the European

Court of Justice. I don't know why

0:57:170:57:22

you are saying this BBC claptrap. We

are not going to be paying in after

0:57:220:57:26

we leave. Yes, there will be on

implementation period but after we

0:57:260:57:33

come out we will have what is

effectively a gigantic free-trade

0:57:330:57:37

deal with all sorts of bolt ons and

the advantage of the new

0:57:370:57:45

arrangements, as the Prime Minister

said at Mansion House, is that it

0:57:450:57:48

will be possible for either side to

do things in their own way and there

0:57:480:57:53

will be an independent arbitration

panel that will be able to decide...

0:57:530:57:58

Can I finish the point. There will

be an independent arbitration panel

0:57:580:58:04

that will be able to decide whether

or not there is a distortion of

0:58:040:58:12

trade. On money, borders and laws,

you are seeing the fulfilment of the

0:58:120:58:19

pledged to take back control.

We

have run out of time. Boris Johnson

0:58:190:58:23

for now, thank you.

0:58:230:58:25

Now a look at what's coming up

straight after this programme.

0:58:250:58:29

In Brighton at ten o'clock, we are

asking whether the people should

0:58:290:58:35

have the final say on the terms of

the Brexit deal. As the case of baby

0:58:350:58:41

Alfie Evans is referred to the

Supreme Court, should doctors have

0:58:410:58:45

the final decision?

0:58:450:58:47

We're out of time,

thanks to all my guests.

0:58:470:58:49

Harold Wilson used to say that

a week was a long time in politics -

0:58:490:58:53

it feels like a lifetime just now.

0:58:530:58:55

I have no idea what we'll

have for you next week.

0:58:550:58:57

See you then.

0:58:570:59:00

Interviews with Boris Johnson MP, secretary of state for foreign and commonwealth affairs, and Vladimir Chizhov, Russian ambassador to the EU. Newspapers are reviewed by Owen Jones, columnist in the Guardian, and Jane Moore from the Sun.