11/03/2018 The Andrew Marr Show


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11/03/2018

Andrew speaks to chancellor of the exchequer Philip Hammond MP and shadow chancellor of the exchequer John McDonnell MP. Plus Marina Litvinenko and David Morrissey.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning.

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I was reminded this week

of something Lenin said:

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"There are decades where nothing

happens;

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and there are weeks

where decades happen."

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It's been one of those weeks -

the Donald and Little Rocket Man

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making nice, a chilling return

to the Cold War at home,

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and a new stand-off

between the British Government

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and Brussels over the very

future of The City.

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As time seems to accelerate, how

much can we pack into the next hour?

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To update us on the British

Government response to that

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attempted murder, and to discuss

whether he has at last got room

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to spend a bit more,

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I'm joined by the Chancellor,

Philip Hammond.

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And from Berlin, Marina Litvinenko,

the woman whose husband was murdered

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- she thinks on the orders

of the Kremlin - to tell us

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what she wants from Theresa May now.

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Now, I've quoted Lenin already.

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I wonder whether John McDonnell,

the Shadow Chancellor,

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who's in Dundee, can top that

when he speaks to us later on.

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And, with the Ides of March coming

up this week - Thursday -

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it's appropriate to be talking

about those swaggering populists

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Julius Caesar and Marc Anthony -

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wowing the plebs at London's newest

theatre.

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I've been talking to actor

David Morrissey and director

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Sir Nicholas Hytner.

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Were I Brutus, Brutus Anthony,

there were an Anthony would ruffle

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up your spirits and put a tongue

in every wound of Caesar that

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would move the stones of Rome

to rise and mutiny.

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And reviewing the news,

the Guardian's Political

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Editor Anushka Asthana

and the Daily Mail's Amanda Platell.

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All that coming up soon.

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But first, the news

with Ben Thompson.

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Good morning.

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BBC News has learned that traces

of the nerve agent used to poison

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a former Russian spy

and his daughter

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have been found in a branch

of the Italian restaurant, Zizzi,

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that they visited in Salisbury.

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Sergei and Yulia Skripal

remain in a critical

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condition in hospital,

almost a week after

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they were taken ill.

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No one who was in the restaurant

at the same time is

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thought to be in danger.

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The Chancellor, Philip Hammond,

is arguing that there is light

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at the end of the tunnel

for the economy, as he prepares

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for his Spring Statement this week.

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The Shadow Chancellor,

John McDonnell, has criticised his

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approach, saying the Conservatives

can not deliver the change

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the country needs.

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President Trump has said he thinks

North Korea wants to make peace.

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He said Pyongyang had promised

to halt missile tests while it held

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meetings with the US,

and he believed it would

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honour the commitment.

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Mr Trump has said he'll meet

the North Korean leader,

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Kim Jong-un, to discuss

the regime's nuclear programme.

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Speaking in Pennsylvania,

he said the discussions could end

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in failure or result

in the greatest deal for the world.

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The water industry regulator

for England and Wales

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is to investigate why thousands

of homes suffered shortages

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or total loss of supply

following the recent cold weather.

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Ofwat says the review will determine

whether companies had

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proper contingency plans in place,

and are offering sufficient

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compensation to those affected.

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A charity co-founded by Bono has

apologised after staff

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made claims of bullying,

harassment and abuse.

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The ONE organisation said workers

at its office in Johannesburg had

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alleged they were belittled

and subjected to sexist comments.

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In a statement, Bono said

the charity's new chief executive

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had taken decisive action

to address the matter.

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That's all from me.

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The next news on BBC

One is at 1:00pm.

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Back to you, Andrew.

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Many thanks. As I said, head

spinning morning for news with lots

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going on, but the papers have more

or less decided what the main story

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is. The Sunday Telegraph, corrupt

Russians face UK Visa bank,

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suggesting the tough American and

Canadian act against misbehaving

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Russians might be applied in

Britain. The Sunday Times have a

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different take on the story, talking

about the Russians playing large

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amounts of money into the

Conservative Party coffers. Marina

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Litvinenko will be on the story

shortly. She has been speaking about

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that as well. The Mail on Sunday has

another charity scandal story, this

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time Bono's charity. I keep

attacking the red tops for not

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tackling serious stories, but a

shout out to the Sunday People,

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eight targets on booting's hit list

in the UK. They have identified

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eight people who might be next. This

could be the beginning of the story.

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And the Sunday express has the spine

poison in a parcel, was it in Zizzi

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or a parcel. The Observer has top

paid men outstripping women by

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Quattro- one in pay. And this is a

tangerine dream, beautifully

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coordinated. We'll start off with

the Russian story.

Every paper seems

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to have a different take on this.

People has a former Russian spy

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saying the Russians tried to poison

him. He is all over the People with

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other spies he says is on the hit

list. They say it was in the

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restaurant, the poison was in the

restaurant. The Sunday Express says

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the poison was in a parcel that was

sent to his home. The Mail on Sunday

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says it was in the flowers by the

grave.

It was somewhere.

No one has

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a clue. What strikes me about all

this, we have the government saying,

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we are doing a fantastic job and

taking it really seriously. Why

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then, when and on double agent, a

former Russian spy, was found with

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his daughter frothing at the mouth

on a park bench in rural England

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with his daughter beside him, didn't

and alarm go off, and didn't

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somebody say, maybe we should get

somebody in, this might be a

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poisoning.

It did take days, didn't

it?

It was something like five days

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before they brought the army in and

even to take the ambulance away that

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he was carried to the hospital in.

It just seems insane.

In terms of

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the political response, to big front

pages. -- to make big front pages.

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The Sunday Times focusing on all the

money going into the Conservative

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Party covers from prominent

Russians.

You get a different

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impression to the government

response to Salisbury by looking at

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these papers. The Sunday Telegraph

says it will make it harder to get

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visas, but the Sunday Times has a

totally different approach. It's

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about the government's links to

Russian oligarchs and the amount of

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money given to the Conservative

Party in particular. When Theresa

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May one came into power aides said

she would suck with a long spoon

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when it came to Moscow. It turns out

that spoon was effective at getting

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a lot of money in.

At this stage we

should say we have no proven link to

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the Kremlin. It's all supposition.

Absolutely.

And there are very nice

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Russian billionaires that are here.

The Sunday Times is clearly linking

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this to the Salisbury thing in some

ways because they have goats in here

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where they have Cabinet ministers

privately accusing the Prime

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Minister of a limp response.

Apparently people were furious when

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she slapped down Boris Johnson in a

cabinet meeting for saying Russia

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was responsible for the meeting. I

wonder who briefed that.

She also

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said this week that when we find out

who is responsible, there will be

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serious repercussions. It took them

nearly ten years to get... I can

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ever pronounce his name.

Litvinenko.

In the meantime we are planning to

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ban going to the World Cup, we will

have played in Russia and Qatar

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before they have even decided if it

is state funded.

But we are not

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sending a junior minister. That will

scare them. The next story, please.

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The Sun.

As you have Philip Hammond

on today...

A really important

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interview on the Sun. But it wasn't

on the front page.

Very mean of

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them. It's a little bit on page two.

He is here to give is great news,

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austerity is over and the light is

shining again. One thing I do like

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is that he is giving a big plug to

tackling the scourge of plastic.

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When you read through this piece,

what he is saying is unemployment is

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down, wages are up nearly 3%. And

manufacturing is up. We have had two

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quarters now where we are paying off

debt Day to Day, the so-called end

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of austerity. It's a sudden Upland

's message.

Philip Hammond has has

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walking into the light. But two

things we can be sure of... One

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thing we can be sure of, you will

not switch the light on on Tuesday

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because of expectation management is

to be believed, he will do hardly

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anything when it comes to the Spring

statement, but before the light

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there is quite a lot of darkness.

This story in the Observer about

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millions of families basically

facing the deepest benefit cuts in

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years, these are things already

announced but will come into action

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this year, and they will hit 11

million families. Many of them are

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in that just about managing group

that the government says it wants to

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help. You have to be careful with

the language you use around

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austerity. More than one politician

has got in trouble previously for

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suggesting we are about to start

prancing into the sunny.

I don't

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think he will be that prancing

today, do you?

We are watching and

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hoping for a bit of Prance. A great

cartoon in the big story of the

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week.

Hugely important, Donald Trump

tweeted he would meet up with North

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Korean leader Kim Jong-un. You don't

often get a story completely

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encapsulated in one cartoon. The

short fat maniac rocket man, I

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believe? The old mentally deranged

ductile, I presume. And with a nice

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warhead there.

It's a clever take on

a famous cartoon by David Lowe,

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great wartime cartoonist, and it is

the Molotov pact between Hitler and

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Stalin. It was a very clever and

beautifully drawn and accurate take

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on one of the world was not most

famous cartoons.

I think he's

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showing off!

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showing off!

Back to domestic

politics. I love this. You know when

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you use WhatsApp and it turns out

it's quite private, it turns out it

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doesn't always work that way. This

is a massive link to Buzzfeed of the

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WhatsApp messages between the

European research group, essentially

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the Tories' backbench Brexiteers,

and it starts off with their

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response when ardent Remainer Anna

Soubry said Theresa May should

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essentially fling them out of the

party. Former leader Iain Duncan

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Smith, you can imagine his tone,

says, my suggestion is colleagues

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should not engage in this. Although

immediately, they engage. A message

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from an main, the MP for St Albans,

who basically says she wants a badge

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with 35 stars, the number Anna

Soubry said there were of Remainers.

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A pair of swivel eyes. She said,

stay focused, we intend to win. And

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they are not big fans of Philip

Hammond. They repeatedly called him

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Philly no mates.

They come onto

these programmes and a very

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restrained in their language, but

between themselves they are furious.

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They agree lines they will take

between them. They are furious at

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some things Theresa May has done and

furious EU citizens will continue to

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have free movement during

transition. It's really quite

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telling.

And because it's a Sunday

morning you are not ruling out some

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of the abusive bits.

There are some

swear words.

That's the Conservative

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side and their divisions, but also a

titanic struggle between Jon

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Lansman, creator and co-leader of

Momentum on one side of Labour, and

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then the Unite candidate on the

other side. Its unions against the

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mass movement that challenged in the

Labour Party.

Groups who you thought

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would be on the same site. But the

leadership seems to be backing the

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Unite candidate in this, but Jon

Lansman wanted to throw it open.

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It's interesting he said female

members in the Labour Party should

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feel free to put their names

forward, and there is a now inspired

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by Jon Lansman hashtag with loads of

women coming forward for the role.

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It's an interesting problem for them

because the unions have always been

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at the heart of the labour movement

from the start. And now I think they

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have the most successful mass

membership party in Europe.

And they

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are isolating them.

Jon Lansman's

background is that he thinks members

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should have the power.

Shall we do

dogs? It's a Sunday morning. Crufts

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is on at the moment and it's

completely captivating.

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completely captivating. These

wonderful animals running along with

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all their beautiful fur flying

around. This is what the poor little

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guys look like beforehand. I

wouldn't do that to myself to get my

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hair looking that good. Would you?

No.

But it's worth a watch and I

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think the final might be tonight.

You have a very interesting story

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about a graduate suing.

This is

really interesting. This graduate,

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who was from Hong Kong, now living

in London, came and applied for a

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degree at Anglia Ruskin University

and one of the promises in the

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prospectus was that you would have

massive opportunities for employment

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afterwards. Well, she has concluded

that it was a Mickey Mouse degree

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and she doesn't have all those

opportunities.

Very interesting.

And

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she is suing the University. This is

changing, students are seeing

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themselves as customers and is

saying, well I get...

She is saying,

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the degree wasn't tough enough?

Interesting.

The claim includes

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allegations that one lecturer

arrived late for lessons, finished

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early, and occasionally simply told

students to self-study. I have to

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say, I thought universities are all

about self-study.

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It was International Women's Day,

but today is Mother's Day.

This is

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wonderful. Gary Oldman, fresh from

winning his Oscar, is with his mum

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on Mother's Day. It's not that he

just goes on about his mum. When he

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moved to America, he brought her

over with him. She is now frail. He

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now lives with her. That's the way

to treat your mum. Did you remember

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to send your mum flowers?

I did! She

got them, so I'm OK. Thank you both

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very much indeed.

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For anyone with half a memory,

the Salisbury nerve agent attack

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is horribly reminiscent

of the murder of Alexander -

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or Sasha - Litvinenko.

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Killed in central London in a plot

which a public inquiry

0:16:000:16:03

concluded was probably

approved by Vladimir Putin.

0:16:030:16:04

Marina Litvinenko, his widow,

joins us now from Berlin.

0:16:040:16:10

Thank you for joining us. This must

have brought back terrible memories,

0:16:100:16:16

the Skripal attack in Salisbury. Can

you tell us how you responded when

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you heard the news?

Very good

morning. Yes, it was a very

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difficult moment when I saw this

news, because I believe it's never,

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ever happened again, after public

enquiry provided evidence of the

0:16:310:16:36

death of my husband. But

unfortunately it did happen. Now I

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am living every day in news from

Salisbury, and trying to understand

0:16:410:16:46

what happened and who might be

behind the crime.

Your husband was

0:16:460:16:51

murdered 12 years ago, and you

fought very hard for a public

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enquiry. After that enquiry reported

and suggested there was probably a

0:16:550:17:00

link, you got a letter from Theresa

May, the then Home Secretary.

We had

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a meeting and we had a discussion

about what you might achieve after

0:17:050:17:11

this public enquiry. After this

meeting, I received a letter. And I

0:17:110:17:17

actually I would like to notice what

was saying in this letter at the

0:17:170:17:21

end. I and this government are clear

that we must continue to pursue

0:17:210:17:26

justice for your husband's killing,

and that we will take every step to

0:17:260:17:32

protect the UK and its people from

such a crime ever being repeated.

0:17:320:17:40

But unfortunately it happened again.

It means something was not done, and

0:17:400:17:44

a lesson received after the murder

of my husband was not learned.

What

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more do you think the British

government could have done, after

0:17:510:17:54

the enquiry into the murder of your

husband, that it didn't do?

We

0:17:540:18:00

understand that the relationship

between two countries like Russia

0:18:000:18:03

and the UK need to be at a very high

level, but we know Russia never

0:18:030:18:09

supported the investigation of

killing my husband. Nobody was

0:18:090:18:14

punished, and people who have been

the killer of my husband are not

0:18:140:18:19

even suspects, because this

investigation provided all evidence.

0:18:190:18:23

They still live in Russia. He is a

member of Parliament. .

Going back

0:18:230:18:35

to the Salisbury attacks, at this

stage we don't have any proof of

0:18:350:18:40

Russian involvement. How sure are

you that this was a Russian attack?

0:18:400:18:45

Russia has a very bad reputation

now, and everything happening in the

0:18:450:18:52

world, doping in sport or

involvement in elections,

0:18:520:18:56

immediately Russia is in the front

of all minds. But in this case I

0:18:560:19:01

would like to get very serious and

take its all evidence, and maybe

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sometimes to provide as a tool, and

was it Russia or any other country

0:19:060:19:14

behind this crime? For us, it was

almost ten years to provide this

0:19:140:19:18

facts and evidence, and it was all

proof. I want the same case to be

0:19:180:19:23

made in the same way. It will not be

politically motivated, and only

0:19:230:19:30

after proper investigation we could

say who is behind this crime.

There

0:19:300:19:34

is a sense at the moment that Moscow

was almost laughing at Britain.

0:19:340:19:40

President Putin talked about his

enemies swallowing poison and then a

0:19:400:19:46

presenter of a Russian television

programme was talking about Britain

0:19:460:19:50

being a very dangerous place

0:19:500:20:00

being a very dangerous place for

Russian, people falling out of

0:20:000:20:02

windows and such.

It is a very

important job, and I hope the

0:20:020:20:09

British government will understand

these words and take it seriously.

0:20:090:20:13

They are talking about sanctions or

reaction for what happened in

0:20:130:20:17

Salisbury, need to be very serious.

Given now what we are saying from

0:20:170:20:22

Moscow, you need to react and you

need to understand it's some kind of

0:20:220:20:27

message, and not just relax.

So in

her letter to you, Theresa May said,

0:20:270:20:35

when she was Home Secretary, that we

are going to take every step to

0:20:350:20:40

protect the UK and its people from

such a crime ever being repeated.

0:20:400:20:45

What is your message to Theresa May

now?

You need to be very selective

0:20:450:20:49

who you are friends with, and when

you allow people with money to come

0:20:490:20:53

to your country and make a business,

you need to be sure what kind of

0:20:530:20:59

money these people bring to your

country. They offer this money

0:20:590:21:03

stolen from Russian people, and

sometimes it's a very serious crime

0:21:030:21:09

behind this money. And I'm

absolutely solidarity with this

0:21:090:21:15

whole question and asking to United

with all this action that was

0:21:150:21:19

already done in the United States

and in Europe. I think they have to

0:21:190:21:24

do the same steps.

You have

commented already about the number

0:21:240:21:29

of -- the amount of Russian money

that has gone to the Conservative

0:21:290:21:34

Party. Do you think the Conservative

Party should hand that money back?

I

0:21:340:21:39

agree with this, because you don't

know what kind of money you accept.

0:21:390:21:44

You are talking about reputation. I

think this minute, very serious now,

0:21:440:21:50

your reputation has to be very

clear, particularly in politics.

You

0:21:500:21:55

are in Berlin at the moment, but you

live in Britain. Do you yourself

0:21:550:22:00

feel safe in Britain?

Since what

happened with my husband, I have

0:22:000:22:07

this question in almost every

interview. You can't say 100%, but I

0:22:070:22:13

would like to feel safe. I would

like my son to feel safe, because we

0:22:130:22:18

are both British, and I would like

all British people to feel safe.

0:22:180:22:23

Marina Litvinenko, thank you so much

for talking to us.

0:22:230:22:27

And so to the weather.

0:22:270:22:28

The month started wildly

but it's getting milder.

0:22:280:22:30

You may know the old saying, that

March weather comes in like a lion

0:22:300:22:34

and goes out like a lamb.

0:22:340:22:35

Louise Lear has more details.

0:22:350:22:38

You are quite right. It has been a

relatively unsettled start to the

0:22:410:22:46

month, but through the morning it

looks like some early morning fog

0:22:460:22:49

will drift away, and we have had

some sunny spells, as you can see

0:22:490:22:55

from this picture. We are surrounded

by weather fronts, topping and

0:22:550:23:00

tailing the country. This area of

low pressure will be more of a

0:23:000:23:05

player today. Looking at a recent

radar picture, the rain confining

0:23:050:23:09

itself to the far north of Scotland,

fringing eastern England, and

0:23:090:23:15

pushing into the South West. Ahead

of it, one or two scattered showers.

0:23:150:23:20

The rest of Mothering Sunday, looks

like sunny spells and scattered

0:23:200:23:25

showers for England and Wales. The

best of the weather in northern

0:23:250:23:30

England, Scotland and Northern

Ireland, and warmer there than it

0:23:300:23:33

has been of late. Perhaps not quite

as warm across the rest of England

0:23:330:23:38

and Wales, but not a bad afternoon.

A spell of more organised rain as

0:23:380:23:44

that low pressure moves in, moving

steadily north and west to start off

0:23:440:23:49

Monday morning. Cooler, with a touch

of frost in Scotland, but a decent

0:23:490:23:58

day up here tomorrow.

0:23:580:24:03

Now, coming up later this morning,

as the investigation

0:24:030:24:06

into the nerve agent attack

in Salisbury continues, Sarah Smith

0:24:060:24:08

will be talking to the former

Home Secretary Jack Straw and former

0:24:080:24:11

Security Minister,

Pauline Neville Jones.

0:24:110:24:12

Also live on the programme, the

Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah.

0:24:120:24:12

Also live on the programme, the

Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah.

0:24:120:24:13

Also live on the programme, the

Universities Minister, Sam Gyimah.

0:24:130:24:14

That's the Sunday Politics

at 11:00am here on BBC One.

0:24:140:24:17

And so, back up north

to my hometown of Dundee,

0:24:170:24:19

where the Scottish Labour Party

Conference is underway.

0:24:190:24:21

Today's keynote speaker is the

Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.

0:24:210:24:24

He joins us now. Welcome. Can I ask

you first about the story we have

0:24:240:24:29

been talking about on this programme

a lot, the poisoning attack in

0:24:290:24:34

Salisbury? There is a suggestion

that the organisation that cracks

0:24:340:24:41

down on Russian money coming into

the country should be applied in

0:24:410:24:45

Britain as well. Do you agree with

that?

The Labour Party moved

0:24:450:24:50

amendments to the money laundering

bill only a week ago to introduce

0:24:500:24:55

this clause. At that stage, the

Conservative Party opposed our

0:24:550:25:01

amendments. We hope now that they

will enable us to bring those

0:25:010:25:06

amendments back at report stage of

the bill so we can have effective

0:25:060:25:10

action. What it does is identifies

those individuals who are basically

0:25:100:25:17

found you'll see of human rights

abuses, and then prevents them from

0:25:170:25:24

having bank accounts in our country,

and effectively... It was introduced

0:25:240:25:31

several years ago by the Obama

administration. I don't know why the

0:25:310:25:38

Conservatives opposed our

amendments. They said there was some

0:25:380:25:42

technical issues. There was some

panic among the Conservative ranks

0:25:420:25:45

on this, but let's now use this

legislation.

If there was a Russian

0:25:450:25:52

attack, and I say if, clearly there

needs to be a strong British

0:25:520:25:58

response. Mrs Litvinenko was

suggesting that after the report

0:25:580:26:02

into her husband's murder, the

response was not strong enough. What

0:26:020:26:05

with the Labour Party like to see?

Lets see the outcome of the

0:26:050:26:11

investigation. We cannot leap to any

conclusions. We need to use any

0:26:110:26:18

diplomatic methods we can, linked

with our European and global I'll...

0:26:180:26:22

Global allies. It may well be a

criminal operation. We don't know at

0:26:220:26:30

the moment. We cannot tolerate

another state putting at risk our

0:26:300:26:35

own citizens or people living in

this country, so we have to isolate

0:26:350:26:39

them. One of the methods we can do

that, is the sort of measures like

0:26:390:26:46

the Magnitsky clause that we are

putting forward.

One of the very

0:26:460:26:51

clear things we can do is stop

appearing on rush-hour today, which

0:26:510:26:55

has been described by one of your

ministers as a Kremlin propaganda

0:26:550:26:59

vehicle.

I think that is right now.

I have appeared on that in the past,

0:26:590:27:04

sometimes to challenge some of the

issues internationally or raise

0:27:040:27:08

issues here that we are concerned

about, not just Russia but also the

0:27:080:27:15

international scene overall. I think

that's right, because what we are

0:27:150:27:19

seeing from Russia at times goes

beyond objective journalism.

So a

0:27:190:27:25

change in direction. Your deputy was

on Russia today only yesterday. Will

0:27:250:27:29

you encourage the rest of your

colleagues to follow that lead?

Yes,

0:27:290:27:34

I am. I've been looking overnight at

what is happening in terms of

0:27:340:27:38

changes in coverage on Russian

media, and I think we have to step

0:27:380:27:42

back now. I can understand why

people have been on it up until now,

0:27:420:27:47

because

0:27:470:27:52

because we have treated it like any

other television station. We have

0:27:540:27:56

tried to be fair. As long as they

abide by general journalistic

0:27:560:27:59

standards that are objective, that

is fine. But we will be having that

0:27:590:28:05

conversation.

With respect, it

wasn't like any other TV station.

0:28:050:28:09

Tom Watson said that Russia today

was reporting false stories, and

0:28:090:28:15

aligned its policy with Vladimir

Putin's Russian state. That was back

0:28:150:28:20

in November.

At times there were

examples of that, and we need to

0:28:200:28:25

take that into account in the

current climate.

Let's turn to the

0:28:250:28:30

economic story of the day, a

cheerful Philip Hammond statement in

0:28:300:28:35

the sun today, when he talks about

wages gumming up by nearly 3%,

0:28:350:28:41

paying off debt finally, the end of

austerity, light at the end of the

0:28:410:28:46

tunnel. Putting aside the politics,

can you give to cheers for what

0:28:460:28:50

appears to be a change in the

economic story of this country?

No,

0:28:500:28:55

because I don't think it's accurate.

Last year we had the lowest economic

0:28:550:29:00

growth in the G-7 countries, so we

shouldn't be celebrating that. The

0:29:000:29:06

head of the OBR has said that

austerity is holding growth back.

0:29:060:29:10

Wages are now below what they were

in 2007, 2008, below the banking

0:29:100:29:18

crisis. In terms of the deficit, we

were promised by the Conservatives

0:29:180:29:22

that they would wipe the deficit out

completely three years ago. I think

0:29:220:29:28

what he has done, very cleverly, is

he has shifted the deficit onto the

0:29:280:29:34

shoulders of NHS managers,

headteachers and local government

0:29:340:29:39

leaders. Conservative council

leaders now are saying, I quote his

0:29:390:29:47

own council leader in Surrey, that

they are facing a financial crisis

0:29:470:29:52

because of government cutbacks. This

is not a matter for celebration. He

0:29:520:29:56

should be coming into the real

world. The Resolution Foundation

0:29:560:30:01

said today that 11 million people

today, not just the poor, are going

0:30:010:30:06

to be hits next month by the cuts

they get to the benefit system. Not

0:30:060:30:11

a matter for celebration by any

means.

Pay has been rising by an

0:30:110:30:16

annual rate of 2.9%. We have had the

two strongest quarters of

0:30:160:30:22

productivity growth, and a budget

surplus for the first time since

0:30:220:30:28

2002. Something is happening.

Pay is

simply, at the moment, just about

0:30:280:30:36

matching inflation. What else did he

promised? The pay cap lifting? Look

0:30:360:30:41

at what they are doing to health

workers. They are offering them a

0:30:410:30:47

standstill wage increase, and then

forcing them to give up a day's

0:30:470:30:53

holiday pay. These are dedicated

staff in a vocation. I think it is

0:30:530:31:01

miserly, mean-spirited, and it's the

sort of thing we should be

0:31:010:31:03

condemning.

0:31:030:31:08

You have said recently your

objectives are socialist, no

0:31:080:31:11

surprise there. This means an

irreversible shift in the balance of

0:31:110:31:14

power and wealth in the face of

ordinary people. What do you mean by

0:31:140:31:19

irreversible? Governments come in

and create policies, but those

0:31:190:31:22

policies can be replaced. What is

irreversible?

The Clement Attlee

0:31:220:31:29

government won the argument about

how we manage our economy, and they

0:31:290:31:33

won it for a generation, about how

we manage the economy in the

0:31:330:31:37

interests of everybody, how we

establish a welfare state so

0:31:370:31:40

everybody lucked and cared for, how

we give everybody a free and free

0:31:400:31:44

NHS. They won the argument for a

whole generation. I think we are

0:31:440:31:50

winning the argument now and I think

by embedding the understanding of

0:31:500:31:55

how the economy could work for

everybody, we would be able to have

0:31:550:31:58

irreversible change in this country.

Just round the corner from you in my

0:31:580:32:04

hometown, lots of fishing

communities on the east coast.

0:32:040:32:09

Traditional fishing communities. You

have your own version of cherry

0:32:090:32:12

picking when it comes to Brexit, you

want changes on state aid, workers'

0:32:120:32:16

rights and so forth. You need to

have a proper negotiation in turn

0:32:160:32:20

with Brussels. Would you be prepared

to see continental -based fishing

0:32:200:32:25

fleets coming into British waters as

part of that negotiation?

We want to

0:32:250:32:30

ensure that our own fisher people

lead the discussions we are having

0:32:300:32:36

about the future of our fishing

industry. What they are saying to us

0:32:360:32:40

is that in any negotiations you have

to ensure our livelihoods are

0:32:400:32:44

protected, but also you have to

ensure that the stock of fish is

0:32:440:32:48

protected. So when we go into

negotiations, those are the people

0:32:480:32:53

we will be listening to.

You say

when you go into negotiations, but

0:32:530:32:57

isn't it the truth that it is more

likely if you become Chancellor, you

0:32:570:33:01

will become so after the deal is

done? And in that context, you will

0:33:010:33:09

have seen the impact assessments

from the government this week about

0:33:090:33:12

potential outcomes. Do you think

they are accurate, broadly speaking?

0:33:120:33:14

I am anxious about some of those

impact assessments. Because it does

0:33:140:33:19

reflect, I think, the nature of the

negotiations as they now are. It

0:33:190:33:23

does reflect, I think, the inability

of our current government to secure

0:33:230:33:30

a decent negotiated settlement. I

think if you change the style of

0:33:300:33:34

negotiations, worked on the basis

of... And I have said this to you

0:33:340:33:38

before, if you change the tone of

negotiation so your recognise you

0:33:380:33:42

are negotiating on the basis of

mutual interest and mutual benefit,

0:33:420:33:46

we can protect our economy and

protect jobs. That's what we will do

0:33:460:33:50

in those negotiations.

If these

impacts assessments are in any way

0:33:500:33:58

accurate, it's a bad assessment for

any chance of coming in. I don't

0:33:580:34:02

normally called Tony Blair to you,

but it said Labour will have less

0:34:020:34:08

money to deal with the country's

problems and be distracted by

0:34:080:34:11

dealing with Brexit rather than the

health service, jobs and living

0:34:110:34:15

standards. He has a point, you would

come in possibly in a situation

0:34:150:34:19

where you have a lot of trouble on

your plate about Brexit, and yet you

0:34:190:34:22

want a huge change in economic

direction.

I welcome Tony Blair's

0:34:220:34:29

advice, obviously, but I am saying

this to you, of course I know we

0:34:290:34:33

could inherit a real mess as a

result of the way the government is

0:34:330:34:38

negotiating with the EU. I

understand that, they are making a

0:34:380:34:44

Horlicks of it, as some of their own

sides described it as. I think we

0:34:440:34:51

could resolve those matters by

ensuring we have cooperation in

0:34:510:34:55

those negotiations. We don't flounce

about saying no deal is better than

0:34:550:35:00

a bad deal and this sort of stuff,

threatening to walk away from the

0:35:000:35:04

table. We have got to negotiate in

the interests of our country and

0:35:040:35:08

bring the country back together

again. From day to day I don't know

0:35:080:35:12

who is negotiating in this

government because they fall out in

0:35:120:35:16

cabinet all the time.

I am sure we

will talk more about this, but enjoy

0:35:160:35:20

Dundee for now and thank you.

0:35:200:35:23

If you haven't heard of the BBC's

podcast about all things Brexit,

0:35:230:35:26

it's called Brexitcast,

and they'll be marking one year

0:35:260:35:28

to go until we leave the EU

with a special edition live

0:35:280:35:31

at the BBC Radio Theatre in London.

0:35:310:35:32

You can apply to join the audience

at bbc.co.uk/showsandtours.

0:35:320:35:39

Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" has

always been popular but it really

0:35:390:35:42

seems to be speaking

to today's politics.

0:35:420:35:45

With its knife-in-the-back plots,

an out-of-touch elite

0:35:450:35:49

and rabble-rousing demagogues,

this is not simply a history play.

0:35:490:35:53

Sir Nicholas Hytner has directed

a new version in which audience

0:35:530:35:56

members become part of the action

itself, joining the mob on the floor

0:35:560:35:59

of The Bridge Theatre,

London's newest venue.

0:35:590:36:01

Recently, I caught up with him

and with David Morrissey

0:36:010:36:05

who plays Marc Antony.

0:36:050:36:09

We all stand up against the spirit

of Caesar, and in the spirit

0:36:090:36:12

of men there is no blood.

0:36:120:36:14

O that we then could come

by Caesar's spirit,

0:36:140:36:16

and not dismember Caesar!

0:36:160:36:17

But alas, he must bleed for it.

0:36:170:36:22

Were I Brutus, Brutus Anthony,

there were an Anthony would ruffle

0:36:220:36:26

up your spirits and put a tongue

in every wound of Caesar that

0:36:260:36:29

would move the stones

of Rome to rise and mutiny.

0:36:290:36:37

I've been really knocked out

by the response to the play

0:36:410:36:44

being performed in this way,

that you are interacting

0:36:440:36:49

with people, that you see them

as the crowd reacting to you every

0:36:490:36:52

step of the way, and...

0:36:520:36:55

For the people on the floor,

they are having one experience,

0:36:550:36:58

and the people in the seats,

when I speak to them,

0:36:580:37:02

they say it's like seeing a sea

of people, and they ask me

0:37:020:37:05

whether they are planted

or whether they are stage managed,

0:37:050:37:07

and I say, no, they just

find their place.

0:37:070:37:09

It's really exciting.

0:37:090:37:10

They make eye contact

the whole time.

0:37:100:37:12

They make eye contact,

you're touching them,

0:37:120:37:14

you're bringing them

around, you know.

0:37:140:37:15

They shout things out.

0:37:150:37:17

There's something...

The play starts with a holiday.

0:37:170:37:19

It's a party.

0:37:190:37:21

They're having a party,

and that gets rudely interrupted,

0:37:210:37:23

and the crowd really respond

to that rude interruption.

0:37:230:37:25

They really don't like it.

0:37:250:37:27

Yeah, they tell them to go home.

0:37:270:37:29

That's the first line of the play.

0:37:290:37:32

"Home, you idle creatures.

0:37:320:37:34

"Get you home."

0:37:340:37:35

It's a pretty good way

to start a play, to tell

0:37:350:37:38

the audience to get out!

0:37:380:37:39

And this is a very fashionable play

at the moment, Julius Caesar.

0:37:390:37:42

It's fashionable in the States

and it's fashionable here.

0:37:420:37:44

There's another

production of it as well.

0:37:440:37:46

Why is this play so

much of the moment?

0:37:460:37:48

What's so interesting about it

in the European context

0:37:480:37:51

is the way it explores

the failures of liberalism.

0:37:510:37:52

The people who kill Julius Caesar -

Brutus, Cassius, the conspirators -

0:37:520:37:55

they are revolutionaries.

0:37:550:37:56

They are the intellectual elite.

0:37:560:37:58

They are the Metropolitan elite,

and what goes wrong for them

0:37:580:38:00

is they don't know how to bring

the mob, the people, with them.

0:38:000:38:04

They are, many of them,

people of great integrity.

0:38:040:38:07

Brutus does have terrific

intellectual and emotional

0:38:070:38:14

integrity, but he is too arrogant

to know how to sell the necessity

0:38:140:38:18

of his project to the rest

of the Roman population.

0:38:180:38:22

So, Marc Antony, you are

a brilliant, brilliant demagogue.

0:38:220:38:25

Just explain to people who don't

know the play a little bit about how

0:38:250:38:28

you are able to take the crowd

into your hand and manipulate them.

0:38:280:38:32

What happens is that there

is the funeral of Caesar,

0:38:320:38:34

and he is allowed by Brutus

and Cassius to make a speech,

0:38:340:38:39

and what Marc Anthony does

is he is able to turn the crowd

0:38:390:38:42

around by appealing to the security

of yesterday, and also saying,

0:38:420:38:45

"Hey, I'm one of you.

0:38:450:38:46

"I'm like you.

0:38:460:38:47

"I come from your place.

0:38:470:38:49

"I walk like you, I talk like you,

I want the same things as you.

0:38:490:38:52

"I'm not like those guys,

who are intellectuals, scholars.

0:38:520:38:54

"They are the ones who are

telling you what you need to have

0:38:540:38:57

"and what you need to do,

but I know you people."

0:38:570:39:00

And it's a great deal

of fun, in a kind of grim

0:39:000:39:07

way, this production.

0:39:070:39:09

There's a lot of things going on -

smoke, machine guns,

0:39:090:39:11

rock music and all the rest of it.

0:39:110:39:13

And you have talked,

in your recent autobiography,

0:39:130:39:15

about the tension between art

on the one hand and showbiz

0:39:150:39:18

on the other, because we want

to come to be entertained as well.

0:39:180:39:21

Just tell us a little bit about how

it you deal with that

0:39:210:39:24

Just tell us a little bit

about how you deal with that

0:39:240:39:27

in a play like Julius Caesar.

0:39:270:39:28

Well, when you start

with Shakespeare, you're starting

0:39:280:39:30

with the great master.

0:39:300:39:31

That balance between

substance and entertainment,

0:39:310:39:34

between art and show business -

because Shakespeare is always

0:39:340:39:38

hurling at you stuff that will,

in effect, silence the mob.

0:39:380:39:43

Politically, Shakespeare is none

too fond of the mob,

0:39:430:39:47

and one of the few undeniable

constants in Shakespeare's

0:39:470:39:49

plays is that he...

0:39:490:39:50

He fears democracy, really.

0:39:500:39:53

He suspects the crowd,

but as an entertainer,

0:39:530:39:57

he knows exactly what to throw them,

so ending with a big battle

0:39:570:40:00

sequence, that's not a bad idea.

0:40:000:40:03

Terrific set piece

speeches, terrific idea.

0:40:030:40:07

Scenes that are none

of them too long.

0:40:070:40:09

Always on to the next thing.

0:40:090:40:10

Good jokes.

0:40:100:40:11

Good jokes, gripping story...

0:40:110:40:12

Romans, war scenes, crowd pleasing.

0:40:120:40:15

Let me ask you a little

bit about Britannia,

0:40:150:40:19

because that's been a huge epic

on Sky, and it's the

0:40:190:40:22

Romans and the Britons.

0:40:220:40:23

Behold, gods of Britannia.

0:40:230:40:28

I am Rome.

0:40:280:40:30

And where I walk is Rome.

0:40:300:40:38

It's written by Jez Butterworth,

and what's happening is the Romans

0:40:400:40:43

are coming back to Britain

for the second time,

0:40:430:40:45

because Julius Caesar couldn't

hack it the first time,

0:40:450:40:47

so there's something that...

0:40:470:40:48

Going in the second time, it's like,

you're taking his crown,

0:40:480:40:51

and they are going to stay.

0:40:510:40:52

So they are much more vicious.

0:40:520:40:54

Also what they do is they find

who hates each other and they set

0:40:540:40:58

them off against each other...

0:40:580:40:59

One tribe against the other.

0:40:590:41:00

That's how they do it,

and that's how they conquered most

0:41:000:41:03

of the world, is by going in

and saying, "You're all Roman now."

0:41:030:41:06

Let's end by talking

about The Bridge and its future,

0:41:060:41:08

this great theatre.

0:41:080:41:09

In a sense, it's London Theatre,

of course, but it's reshaping

0:41:090:41:12

the kind of geography

of London culture.

0:41:120:41:15

It's yet another big development

on the east of London.

0:41:150:41:20

Yes, East and South.

0:41:200:41:21

Back to the future.

0:41:210:41:25

Shakespeare's theatre

was on the South Bank,

0:41:250:41:27

and Southwark was the great

entertainment borough

0:41:270:41:29

back 400 years ago.

0:41:290:41:31

Even back 100 years ago,

Elephant and Castle

0:41:310:41:35

was the Piccadilly of the south.

0:41:350:41:37

I think there is a huge amount

of energy surging East in London.

0:41:370:41:40

The great thing about here

is that we can put all our shows out

0:41:400:41:44

all over the country

using National Theatre Live,

0:41:440:41:45

which was one of the things

that I'd started

0:41:450:41:48

when I was at the National Theatre.

0:41:480:41:50

Julius Caesar will be

out March 22nd.

0:41:500:41:52

What we are hoping to do here...

0:41:520:41:55

We have no great remit

beyond putting on what we hope

0:41:550:41:57

are terrific, thought-provoking,

entertaining shows,

0:41:570:42:00

and getting as many people

to see them as possible.

0:42:000:42:02

That's our remit.

0:42:020:42:04

If we can get them out over

the whole country, all to the good.

0:42:040:42:07

All over the world.

0:42:070:42:10

Bums on seats, and, in this context,

feet on the floor as well.

0:42:100:42:13

Thank you both very much indeed.

0:42:130:42:14

Thank you.

Thank you.

0:42:140:42:15

So, as we've heard earlier,

the Chancellor believes the economy

0:42:150:42:19

is at last on the turn and there's

light at the end of the tunnel.

0:42:190:42:23

Well, that's a relief.

0:42:230:42:24

But, with a huge round of

new welfare cuts looming and intense

0:42:240:42:27

pressures on the health and defence

budgets, does this mean

0:42:270:42:29

that he will actually

put his hand in his pocket?

0:42:290:42:33

I will come onto that in a second. I

will start by asking about this

0:42:330:42:38

poisoning in Salisbury. If it is

proven to be an action of the

0:42:380:42:43

Russian state, how serious is that

for our relationship with the

0:42:430:42:46

Russian government?

First of all, as

you say, it's a police investigation

0:42:460:42:51

and it will be evidence lead and we

must go where the evidence takes us.

0:42:510:42:55

We have to allow the police

investigation to take its course.

0:42:550:42:59

But if there were to be an

involvement of a foreign state,

0:42:590:43:05

evidenced by this investigation,

then obviously that would be very

0:43:050:43:09

serious indeed and the government

would respond appropriately.

You

0:43:090:43:13

might have heard Marina Litvinenko

was saying last time around the

0:43:130:43:16

response wasn't nearly strong

enough. In that context, I wonder

0:43:160:43:20

what you think now about the

Magnitsky Act proposal for much

0:43:200:43:24

stricter these are restrictions on

named individuals.

The proposals put

0:43:240:43:30

forward greater power we already

have. The Home Secretary already has

0:43:300:43:34

power to exclude individuals from

the UK if she believes their

0:43:340:43:37

presence here is not conducive to

our national security or the public

0:43:370:43:41

good. So it's not strictly

necessary. But we are seeking to

0:43:410:43:46

reach an accommodation with those

who have put this amendment forward.

0:43:460:43:48

Let's see if we can come to a

proposal that works for everyone.

0:43:480:43:54

You were there as Foreign Secretary

at the end of the Litvinenko

0:43:540:43:57

enquiry. You summoned in the Russian

ambassador at the time. Marina

0:43:570:44:02

Litvinenko suggests what you did was

not tough enough. What's your

0:44:020:44:05

message to her?

The enquiry took

some time and it was sometime after

0:44:050:44:12

the events before we had the

evidence from the enquiry, but we

0:44:120:44:16

took appropriate steps, measures

which are still in place today.

You

0:44:160:44:20

kicked out a couple of diplomats,

and that's about it.

But the

0:44:200:44:25

Russians have not complied with

their international obligations

0:44:250:44:27

despite being members of the

Security Council. They have

0:44:270:44:30

continued to protect those who we

seek to extradite in respect of the

0:44:300:44:35

murder of Mr Litvinenko.

And yet, in

a sense, they are laughing at us in

0:44:350:44:40

this country. They still think this

is a place where they can do what

0:44:400:44:44

they like without any serious

repercussions and London is still

0:44:440:44:47

one of the prime places for Russian

money to arrive. Do you need to look

0:44:470:44:50

at the whole thing again?

The police

enquiry and depth and detail, the

0:44:500:44:56

vast resources that have been

deployed and the high-level assets

0:44:560:45:03

that we have had to be able to make

these analyses show that nobody is

0:45:030:45:08

laughing at us. This is a very

serious investigation that's going

0:45:080:45:11

on and let's see where it leads us.

Your party has taken massive

0:45:110:45:16

donations from Russian oligarchs and

others. Is it time to hand them

0:45:160:45:19

back?

0:45:190:45:19

There are very strict rules about

donations to political parties. Only

0:45:240:45:30

British citizens can make donations

to political parties. All donations

0:45:300:45:33

are carefully vetted.

But the facts

have changed. Isn't it time to

0:45:330:45:40

change your mind?

There are people

in this country who are British

0:45:400:45:45

citizens who are of Russian origin.

I don't think we should tar them

0:45:450:45:49

with Putin's brush. We should

recognise that people come to this

0:45:490:45:56

country from many places, they

become British citizens, they live

0:45:560:45:59

under UK law, and they should have

full participation rights in our

0:45:590:46:04

society.

Light at the end of the

tunnel, a turning point for the

0:46:040:46:09

economy. You've given examples

0:46:090:46:16

economy. You've given examples about

wage growth, finally ending the

0:46:190:46:20

austerity years of paying back the

budget day by day, and all of that.

0:46:200:46:23

It feels like a really important

moment.

There is light at the end of

0:46:230:46:26

the tunnel because we are about to

see debt starting to fall after it's

0:46:260:46:30

been growing for 17 continuous

years. That's a very important

0:46:300:46:35

moment for us. But we are still in

the tunnel at the moment. We have to

0:46:350:46:41

get debt down. We have taken a

balanced approach over the last

0:46:410:46:47

couple of fiscal events, using

flexibility that we had to continue

0:46:470:46:51

paying down debt, but also to

provide additional support to our

0:46:510:46:56

public services, to invest in our

future and to reduce taxes for

0:46:560:47:00

families and small businesses who

are feeling it.

For the people who

0:47:000:47:05

are about to be hit with the next

round of welfare cuts, are you going

0:47:050:47:10

to be able to help them at all?

There has been speculation in the

0:47:100:47:14

media about what the OBR numbers

will be when they are published on

0:47:140:47:19

Tuesday. I suggest we wait until we

see the numbers. This is not a

0:47:190:47:23

fiscal event in itself. I will not

be making tax or spending

0:47:230:47:28

announcements on Tuesday. I will be

signalling some areas we want to

0:47:280:47:32

consult ahead of the budget in the

autumn. We should be very careful

0:47:320:47:37

looking at single sets of figures,

one or two quarters. We need to look

0:47:370:47:43

at what is happening sustainably in

the economy. If there is the

0:47:430:47:48

flexibility to do something, we will

decide in the autumn how we are

0:47:480:47:52

going to use that. We will continue

to take a balanced approach,

0:47:520:47:57

addressing the debt problem,

investing in Britain's future,

0:47:570:48:02

reducing taxes for hard-working

families and putting money into our

0:48:020:48:06

public services.

Is austerity over?

Most people take that to be a

0:48:060:48:13

reference to the public sector pay

cut, and we have removed the 1% cap

0:48:130:48:18

on public sector pay.

0:48:180:48:25

on public sector pay. We have an

agenda for staff in the NHS, which I

0:48:250:48:29

hope will lead to a pay settlement

which satisfies workers in the NHS

0:48:290:48:33

but is also fair to taxpayers,

because it tackled some of the

0:48:330:48:38

challenges we have in the NHS and

makes it more effective.

The working

0:48:380:48:44

families affected by these welfare

changes, £200 a year worse off on

0:48:440:48:49

average. That feels like no light at

the end of the tunnel for them. Can

0:48:490:48:55

I ask you about local authorities?

All across the country, both Tory

0:48:550:49:00

and Labour local authorities are

screaming with pain. They feel

0:49:000:49:04

austerity has been pushed to the

limits and they are, in the words of

0:49:040:49:10

one of your colleagues, facing a

financial precipice. Can you give

0:49:100:49:14

them some relief at last?

Just to be

clear, this is not a fiscal event. I

0:49:140:49:20

will not be making fiscal

announcements. Local authorities

0:49:200:49:24

have well over £200 billion of

course spending power over the

0:49:240:49:29

five-year period from 2015 to 2020.

They have reserves of £23 billion,

0:49:290:49:38

which is £8 billion higher than in

2010. Local authorities have done an

0:49:380:49:44

incredible job in delivering

efficiencies.

And they are now in

0:49:440:49:49

crisis.

We understand that they are

under pressures. At the spring

0:49:490:49:54

budget last year, I put an extra £2

billion into social care. We have

0:49:540:50:00

also given them greater flexibility

through the precept in the recent

0:50:000:50:06

local government settlement, so that

local authorities now have £9

0:50:060:50:11

billion worth of additional,

dedicated spending for social

0:50:110:50:14

services over the next three years.

That is an act chew aerial answer to

0:50:140:50:19

people who are screaming in pain, in

terms of a system at absolute

0:50:190:50:24

breaking point.

We understand there

are pressures in the system. We

0:50:240:50:30

discuss them with colleagues in

local government and in spending

0:50:300:50:35

departments across Whitehall. When

we get to the autumn budget, we will

0:50:350:50:39

look at the numbers there. I will be

paving the way in this autumn budget

0:50:390:50:44

for a spending review in 2019, which

will look at public spending from

0:50:440:50:50

2020 onwards, what the total

envelope should be, how we allocated

0:50:500:50:55

between departments and the local

government.

You are pushing off the

0:50:550:50:59

good news until closer to

0:50:590:51:06

good news until closer to the

general election. Can I ask you

0:51:080:51:10

about an important issue on the Tory

backbenches, defence spending. One

0:51:100:51:12

of your ministers has said that 2%

is not enough these days. The entire

0:51:120:51:15

military system is in real problems.

They need more tanks and planes. A

0:51:150:51:20

lot of your backbench colleagues are

determined that you have to do

0:51:200:51:24

something for them.

I was Defence

Secretary for nearly three years,

0:51:240:51:30

and I am full of admiration for the

Armed Forces and what they do to

0:51:300:51:34

keep Britain safe, and I understand

the complexity of the defence

0:51:340:51:40

budgets. Very long-term projects at

the cutting edge of technology. Some

0:51:400:51:44

of the media talk as if defence is

being cut. Let's be clear about the

0:51:440:51:50

facts. Defence will receive more

than £1 billion extra in each year

0:51:500:51:55

of this Parliament. It's the fastest

growing resource budget in

0:51:550:52:00

Whitehall. Defence is not being cut

by any means. I accept there are

0:52:000:52:05

pressures on defence, including

foreign exchange pressures, because

0:52:050:52:09

a lot of the military equipment we

use is bought in US dollars. The

0:52:090:52:15

Prime Minister has announced a

defence mechanisation programme,

0:52:150:52:19

where she and I and the Defence

Secretary are working closely and

0:52:190:52:24

looking at these challenges. We are

committed to making sure Britain is

0:52:240:52:29

always properly defended.

It sounds

like yet more jam tomorrow. Can I

0:52:290:52:34

reduce something that Nick Timothy

said? Mr Hammond must now declare an

0:52:340:52:40

end to austerity. The government has

achieved its surplus. It can now

0:52:400:52:45

invest in the economy in the

long-term and increase public

0:52:450:52:50

spending.

Nick Timothy is the debt.

We have a debt of 86.5% of our GDP.

0:52:500:53:00

All of the International

organisations recognise that is

0:53:000:53:02

higher than a safe level. This isn't

some ideological issue. It's about

0:53:020:53:07

making sure that we have the

capacity to respond to any future

0:53:070:53:12

shock to the economy. There will be

economic cycles in the future. We

0:53:120:53:17

need to be able to respond to them

without taking our debt over 100% of

0:53:170:53:24

GDP.

John Redwood spoke about the

debt, and said that this level of

0:53:240:53:31

debt is easily sustainable, and

suggested that the austerity

0:53:310:53:35

programme was a political choice,

not an economic essential one.

With

0:53:350:53:41

respect to John Redwood, I think he

is wrong. We have £65,000 worth of

0:53:410:53:48

public debt for every household in

this country. When I became

0:53:480:53:53

Chancellor, I changed the fiscal

rules. I said, we will tackle the

0:53:530:53:58

debt. We have to tackle the debt.

But we will spread out the time we

0:53:580:54:02

do it a bit further, creating more

flexibility, so that at the same

0:54:020:54:07

time as tackling the debt, we also

invest in Britain's future and put

0:54:070:54:14

money into the public services, and

relieve small businesses and

0:54:140:54:18

families with tax breaks. That's

what we've done and that's what we

0:54:180:54:22

intend to go on doing.

Is your real

message...

It's wrong to say that

0:54:220:54:29

every penny of capacity we have has

to go to bringing down debt, but

0:54:290:54:33

it's equally wrong that every penny

should go into additional public

0:54:330:54:39

spending.

I must ask you about

Brexit. It's going to be a complex

0:54:390:54:45

negotiation. The Prime Minister said

last week we would not get the full

0:54:450:54:49

amount of access to all markets we

have at the moment. You have a very

0:54:490:54:56

difficult negotiation over the

future of London and the financial

0:54:560:55:00

services. Is it worth it?

Yes.

Financial services is a very

0:55:000:55:05

important part of our economy.

Is

Brexit worth it, I mean?

The British

0:55:050:55:13

people have decided that we are

leaving the European Union, and that

0:55:130:55:16

is what we are doing. Our job is to

make sure we get the best possible

0:55:160:55:21

job for Britain, that we make a

smart Brexit, one that works for

0:55:210:55:28

Britain, British jobs and British

businesses, and that is what we are

0:55:280:55:31

all about.

Do you accept we are

going to take some kind of economic

0:55:310:55:36

hit, as Mr Tusk says?

He is a

negotiator, and on Wednesday he

0:55:360:55:44

didn't say anything I wouldn't

expect a skilled negotiator to say

0:55:440:55:48

at the beginning of the

negotiations. He basically said the

0:55:480:55:52

deal would have to contain none of

the things you want and all of the

0:55:520:55:56

things we want. That is an opening

negotiating position.

Looking at

0:55:560:56:00

what you have said about the

importance of the financial

0:56:000:56:05

services. You have said again and

again that this has to be part of a

0:56:050:56:09

fair deal. Is this at last a

government Red Line?

The Prime

0:56:090:56:16

Minister said clearly in her speech

that the way to negotiate

0:56:160:56:19

successfully with the Europeans is

not to threaten, not to talk about

0:56:190:56:23

walking away from tables or anything

like that, but to engage, to talk,

0:56:230:56:30

to explore the options. The reason I

think the financial services has to

0:56:300:56:34

be part of the deal is firstly, the

shape of Britain's economy. The

0:56:340:56:40

services are very part of our

economy, and this needs to be part

0:56:400:56:50

of it. Secondly, the financial

system in London is an asset of

0:56:500:56:55

Europe as a whole. £1.1 trillion

worth of loans to European companies

0:56:550:57:00

facilitated through the City of

London. A vast proportion of

0:57:000:57:06

transactions go through the City of

London.

You know they are thinking

0:57:060:57:10

differently. The French have said we

are not going to get this kind of

0:57:100:57:13

deal. If we get a deal that doesn't

include the financial services, that

0:57:130:57:18

would be an unfair or a bad deal?

I

don't accept that premise. I think

0:57:180:57:24

we will get a deal on financial

services, but the

0:57:240:57:38

question is how? What kind of access

we are able to negotiate

0:57:410:57:43

reciprocally. Many European banks

operate in London as part of

0:57:430:57:45

London's financial services.

At

least we know what the government

0:57:450:57:48

want out of the negotiations. How do

you modelled the economic effect of

0:57:480:57:51

that?

We haven't embarked on the

negotiation yet. The next step in

0:57:510:58:00

the process at the European Council

next month is to hopefully agree the

0:58:000:58:04

implementation period, so that

businesses can plan over the next

0:58:040:58:08

three years with certainty. Then we

will get the guidelines from the

0:58:080:58:12

European Union for the next phase of

negotiation. Then we start talking

0:58:120:58:15

with them about the shape of a

future partnership, which will cover

0:58:150:58:22

economics, trade, investment, but

also security, domestic and external

0:58:220:58:27

security. Once we know what the deal

looks like, we will certainly model

0:58:270:58:32

it.

Chancellor, thank you very much

indeed. Now look at what's coming up

0:58:320:58:38

straight after this programme.

Join

us from Newport were after a week of

0:58:380:58:44

schmoozing the Saudi prince we ask,

should Britain be proud of its air

0:58:440:58:50

trade? And Public Health England

says we are far too fat and getting

0:58:500:58:54

bigger. Is be city a matter of

personal choice or is it a matter of

0:58:540:58:59

interest for the government?

That's

all from us this week. Thanks to all

0:58:590:59:04

my guess is, and happy Mother's Day.

0:59:040:59:13

Andrew speaks to chancellor of the exchequer Philip Hammond MP and shadow chancellor of the exchequer John McDonnell MP. He is also joined by Marina Litvinenko, widow of Alexander Litvinenko, actor David Morrissey and director Sir Nicholas Hytner. The Guardian's political editor Anushka Asthana and Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell review the newspapers.