06/11/2011 The Politics Show London


06/11/2011

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This week on the Politics Show. Late on Friday, I stood outside the

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Parliament in Greece watching Papandreou face down his MPs in a

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knife-edge confidence vote. He won. Tomorrow, the international markets

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will give their verdict. So is this Greek tragedy beginning its final

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Does Ed Miliband support the St Paul's protesters here at home? He

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says this morning that only the "reckless" would ignore the "danger

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signals". And David Thompson is in the skies

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over Glasgow. The SNP believe it's time for Scotland to fly solo. But

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could a plan to keep the UK in one piece actually have a profound

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In the capital, months after it was condemned over its links with

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Colonel Gaddafi, the LSE is in talks over a training deal with the

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new regime. Could we soon see a new wave of Council House building here

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I'll be talking to Labour's Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna.

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And to two Scottish political heavyweights: Secretary of State

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Michael Moore. And the First Minister himself, Alex Salmond.

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Joining me for the whole programme today, Rowenna Davis from The

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Guardian. And The Spectator's political editor, James Forsyth.

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But first, the news with Adam Parsons.

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Good afternoon, The Labour leader Ed Miliband has warned that "only

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the most reckless" would ignore the message from anti-capitalist

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protesters camped outside St Paul's Cathedral. Writing in today's

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Observer newspaper, Mr Miliband says they reflect a frustration in

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mainstream Britain about the disparity between people's values

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and the way the country is run, as The Occupy protesters have been

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camped outside St Paul's for three weeks, causing the temporary

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closure of the cathedral and resignations at the top of the

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Church. In an interview today, Ed Miliband warned that only the most

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rectus would ignore or dismiss the I think the question of whether the

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protests day is to be negotiated between the protesters, St Paul's

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and the Corporation of London. My point is different, politics has to

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recognise that, on this occasion, they may be a few hundred people

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protesting at St Paul's, but there are millions and millions who are

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thinking, the protesters, is not what I would do, but there are

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issues which need to be talked about. Mr Miliband said many would

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not agree with the protesters but he warned people let felt -- people

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felt let down. The Prime Minister has been more cautious in his

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response. Last week he said the Archbishop of Canterbury had spoken

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for the whole country when he called for greater responsibility

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at the top of society. He also said the freedom to demonstrate does not

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include pitching a tent anywhere in London. The banker chosen by St

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Paul's to head a group reconnecting the financial with the ethical, has

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warned the market economy has slipped its moral moorings with

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disastrous consequences. Within the last half hour, the Transport

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Secretary Justine Greening has visited the site of the M5 crash

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which claimed seven lives on Friday night. The motorway is likely to

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remain closed between junctions 24 and 25 near Taunton in Somerset for

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the rest of the day. Our reporter Louise Hubball is there.

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This police investigation here it is still very much under way, the

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police have confirmed to ask no more bodies have been discovered

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here overnight, so the number of people who have been killed in this

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horrific accident remains at seven. But the police investigation is

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continuing, much of the wreckage was removed overnight. All of the

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vehicles taken away. There remains an awful lot of debris. Dozens of

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officers are still on site sifting through that debris, that

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painstaking investigation continuing, to try and pieced

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together what has happened here. The police are using a digger to

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lift away some of that debris. It has been suggested the M5 will

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remain closed until at least tomorrow morning. It seems, from

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looking at those images of the motorway surface, that some

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resurfacing of that section of that road will need to be done. Justine

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Greening, the Transport Secretary, is here, taking a look at this

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painstaking investigation, as the police tried to work out how this

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accident happened. Holiday companies are warning that the

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number of ordinary tourists expected to visit London next

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summer during the Olympics could plummet. The European Tour

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Operators Association says bookings are down by an average of 90%. It

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says visitors are being deterred by inflated hotel prices, and a

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misconception that all rooms have been sold to sports fans.

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The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are to make Kensington Palace their

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permanent London home. They'll move into an apartment where Princess

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Margaret used to live in two years' time, using other accommodation

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there in the meantime. Their new home is being refurbished at the

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taxpayers' expense. Palace officials says costs will be kept

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to a minimum. There's more news here on BBC One

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at 6pm. Until then, have a good afternoon.

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It's a great filmic device to start with. A whole bunch of seemingly

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separate, disparate events, and then seeing how they all come

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together to form a central narrative. This week, a stockbroker

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goes bust in New York. Greece teeters on the edge. The IMF moves

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into Italy. World leaders gather in Cannes. And a bunch of protesters

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sleep in tents at the foot of St Paul's. Ed Miliband has spoken

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about the protesters and the fact they seem to represent much wider

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concern, do they? Yes, I think they completely and utterly do. Ed

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Miliband is right to say they have a right to be there. Actually they

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do express a much wider grievance in society. Not everybody wants to

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go down there and pitch their tent, that is understandable. For those

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who do, they should be allowed to voice their opinion. Ed Miliband is

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lucky he believes in politics, that being a politician can help to

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solve these crises. But many on the streets feel this is their last

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resort, that they're not being listened to. Do you agree?

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I don't think anyone can be happy with how the system is working. If

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you are in favour of responsibility, you can't be happy with bankers

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paying themselves massive bonuses years after the Bank's new brought

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down the financial system. These protesters, what is remarkable is

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how few people there are when you consider how unpopular bankers are,

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how justified people are to fill with their discontent with the

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system. We will see David Cameron going back to morally responsible

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capitalism. The Chocolate Orange speech was saying, some of

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corporate behaviour it is not practical to regulate again, but we

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should call up companies who behave badly. Is that enough? It is very

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political risk for Ed Miliband? People will be looking at the

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protesters, thinking, you are making a mess of our national

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monument, what are you doing there? It is tricky timing with

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Remembrance Sunday. It would be a gesture to say, we will clear a way

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next Sunday and come back. Miliband is saying, I understand

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the anger felt by protesters which is also felt by a lot of people in

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the country. He is not saying they should carry on or advocating other

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people go down there. The other thing, that is what a democracy is

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about, we have a right to put our tent down. Yes, sometimes it is

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difficult but we have to negotiate. Those protesters are peaceful.

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It's been another rollercoaster week for the world economy. Plenty

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of ups, plenty of downs. And, like any good roller coaster ride, it

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has left many left feeling terribly Home of the film festival,

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Hollywood's glittering beau monde. This week, Cannes saw no glamour,

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and you can forget Marilyn Monroe, Hepburn and instead, Nicolas

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Sarkozy, David Cameron and a bemused Barack Obama took their

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place on the red carpet as the leaders of the G20 came to

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Croisette. Last week in Brussels, Europe thought they had an

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agreement on the Greek bail out but suddenly the Greeks insisted on a

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referendum. And we turned from Life Is Sweet to Apocalypse Now. This is

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the Madness of King George, a Greek tragedy starring George Papandreou.

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He ditched the referendum and had high noon with his Parliament late

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on Friday. That country's Long Day's Journey Into Night is far

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from over. If Greece is not saved, we will see chaos, an international

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banking, good in -- Armageddon. It won't be confined to Greece, the

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G20 has an Italian job. The decks in Italy are vast, world leaders

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are getting Brassed Off. Two fifths of our exports go to the eurozone.

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If they go down like the Titanic, so could we. David Cameron will not

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commit to the bail-out but he has agreed to increase what we give to

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the IMF which is already �29 billion. So can this disaster movie

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have a happy ending? Is there a great escape? Everyone is trying to

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do the right thing but there is no Stallone or Bruce Willis waiting in

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the wings, and all too easily, tragedy can turn to fast. -- farce.

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Labour's Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna is with me.

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What difference... You have been saying David Cameron should have

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done more. With Ed Miliband, how would it have been different at the

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G20? I would ask you to contrast the approaches of Alistair Darling

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and Gordon Brown. But that was a banking crisis, not eurozone.

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is also a financial crisis. What I am try to do is illustrate to the

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leadership which is needed. Gordon Brown was ridiculed for chartering

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a plane, encouraging world leaders who were not that it -- intending

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to attend, locking them in a room and insisting that the details of

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the agreements were discussed. it can't be the case David Cameron

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could be in the driving seat, dealing with the eurozone crisis,

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when Britain is not part of the eurozone and decisions? We are

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uniquely placed, partly because we have the city, the major financial

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services centre in the world. There is a role there for the country to

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play. On a wider level, it is not just a failure of leadership on the

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part of the Prime Minster and Chancellor, but across the board.

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We're not clear run the details. I looked at the communique which

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spoke about an action plan for growth in jobs with a focus on

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youth unemployment. What is the gunmen doing here to tackle youth

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unemployment which has passed 900,000? What would Ed Miliband and

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Ed Balls do? We would be instituted a feature jobs find scheme to get

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people back into work to make a real difference.

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Let us look at the other specifics. Danny Alexander has been speaking

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to the BBC, talking about the ceiling of what could be the

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contributions of Britain to the IMF. We thought the maximum it could be

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without going to Parliament was a �20 billion. Danny Alexander spoke

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about �40 billion. We need a detail. It is usual practice after a summit

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like this for the Prime Minster to come to the Commons to give the

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details which is what we need. We are not very clear from what Danny

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Alexander said this morning what the commitment would be. It is

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important to state that what we do here, we stand behind the IMF. And

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we guarantee its funds. One of the things Christine Lagarde said on

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Friday was that she had been given an assurance by the world leaders

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that she would be given all necessary resources. What does that

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mean? We need the Prime Minster to come to Parliament and explain this

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to us and if he does not we will be asking the Speaker to make sure.

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I am sure there will be a statement. What if it is said we do not need a

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boat, because of special instruments? This is a

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controversial area. Effectively, that money by a back door go

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towards the euro zone. The key thing for us in relation to the IMF

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is, it isn't the job of the IMF to step in and perform the function of

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the European Central Bank, and the bail out fund. IMF funds are there

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to help individual countries which are facing solvency crisis, not to

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:14:47.:14:48.

Should they ECB be the Llanddarog last resort? You would expect that.

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So he will be able to earth persuade Angela Merkel that?

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asked if the European Central Bank should perform the role of a

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central bank in Europe. That is what it should do. You're asking if

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Ed Miliband would be able to instruct Angela Merkel... You have

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made play over the last couple of days about the failure of

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leadership. I'm interested if you think that Ed Miliband would be the

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one to quash her over the head and changed her view? It isn't about as

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quashing any of our counterparts over the head. What we want them to

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come forward with is a solution. As you said in the lead-up to this

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discussion, this has a massive effect on our economy. It isn't

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just that a large amount of traders are in the euro-zone, the banks had

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a certain amount of exposure as well. The Robin Hood Tax, the Tobin

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tax, the transaction tax on banks, whatever you want to call it. You

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are in favour? In principle, we like it. But it has to be something

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done on a global basis, in particular, the Americans need to

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be involved. Otherwise, it would leave the city exposed and it would

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not achieve the aim we wanted to. What about if the European Union

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pressed ahead and it wasn't global? That would hit Britain hard? That

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is why we are saying it needs to be buy into it. Ed Miliband's comments

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about St Paul's Cathedral and the protests this morning, would you go

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down and join them? Well, I'm not sure it is a question of whether I

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would go out there and drawing them or not. I think there is a bigger

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issue. What they demonstrate is an unease with the situation that we

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find ourselves in. Do you support them? Well, I don't think it's a

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question of... It's a straight question! Do you have sympathy with

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them? It's not a question of whether rise support or sympathise.

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The challenge for politicians is to answer the questions they are

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raising and address the concerns people have. What I would say is

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that they represent a growing unease, which has felt across

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families and businesses in the whole of the country. They don't

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have a monopoly on that anger about the system that we have at the

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moment. The question is, what are the answers we are going to come up

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with? Did people let me to sit inside a tent? No, they elect

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politicians to come up with the solutions to the problems they face.

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99% played by the rules, the one presented use that. That seems a

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little simplistic. The do you think the 1% includes the politicians

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that have spectacularly failed to regulate the banks, who have bailed

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out the banks without restrictions, does that include people from the

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last government? Well, you're asking me whether that... Are no,

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in your opinion. Does the 1% include the people that set up the

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regulatory system that failed, that let the banks run riot? I've no

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idea whether that is the perception. Do we have a responsibility? Over

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our time in government, should we have better regulated the banks? Of

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course. We have said that. We have to accept responsibility and I am

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happy to do that. I think we should be humble enough to do that.

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issue I am most interested in at the moment is whether Labour is

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going to let the Conservatives get away with what seemed to me as a

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massive failure in Cannes. Similarly, billions of pounds of

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British taxpayers' money is now going to be going into the IMF, to

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effectively bail out the eurozone. We didn't benefit from the euro, at

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the same time we are going to be paying for them. Don't you think we

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need a vote on this issue? As I said earlier, let's see the details.

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At the moment, we don't know what we are being asked to vote for. The

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number one concern people have in this country is the lack of growth.

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We have had 0.5% growth as a result of government policies over the

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last year. The worrying thing is that this is before you have

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factored in the effect of the euro- zone crisis on our economy. We have

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to leave it there. Now, six months ago the SNP won a stunning victory

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in elections for the Scottish parliament. They crushed Labour in

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its heartlands and wiped the Lib Dems of the face of mainland

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Scotland. It has promised to hold a referendum on independence in

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Scotland at some point commands some people already have the

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anniversary of the battle -- Battle of Bannockburn circled in their

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diaries. They would like to just be a straight yes or no. But there is

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another option, it's called devolution max. Some people would

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like that on the ballot paper as well. We sent David Thomson home to

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Glasgow to find out more. Not much beats the duty of the

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Scottish landscape, even just a few miles outside of Glasgow. The

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political map is pretty fascinating as well. There is a real

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possibility that Scotland will reinvent its relationship with the

:20:00.:20:05.

rest of the UK with a referendum on independence. The SNP insist that

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it is time to fly solo. But there is another option on the table. It

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is called devo max. The idea is that Scotland remains in the UK but

:20:17.:20:20.

is given tax-raising powers and responsibility for virtually

:20:20.:20:24.

everything apart from defence and foreign policy. It keeps the Queen

:20:24.:20:28.

and it keeps the pound. It is not independence, but it is pretty damn

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close. That is why it is controversial. This is essentially

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the maximum amount of powers we can have in terms of devolution. It's

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also the ability of Scotland to raise taxes in Scotland to pay for

:20:40.:20:44.

the services that we provide. I fear that if we don't have an

:20:44.:20:47.

alternative to independence in the form of some kind of fiscal

:20:47.:20:52.

autonomy, devo max, then I think the SNP will continue to do well. I

:20:52.:20:55.

believe this keeps us in the Union, but it also means we transform the

:20:55.:20:58.

relationship of Scotland within the Union. It also means that Scotland

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will travel much further down do devolution road. You might expect a

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former First Minister of Scotland to want more powers for Scotland.

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But what about the view from London? There are some English Tory

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MPs that are up for devo max, but with strings. If the Scottish

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people want more physical autonomy, as a democrat I find it difficult

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to see that is something we can object to. But it has to be honest

:21:24.:21:27.

and fair to the rest of the Union. That means ending the current

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subsidy that the Scots get, which is arbitrary and unfair because it

:21:30.:21:37.

is not linked to the rest of the country. We also have to deal with

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Scottish MPs in Westminster voting on issues that affect every voter

:21:40.:21:44.

in the country apart from their own. Some people think that is a trap

:21:44.:21:49.

for Scotland. You can negotiate for more powers, but you've got to

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understand that if you take some of the good things, if you want to get

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the oil revenues, then you've also got to accept that there is a huge

:21:57.:22:01.

spending imbalance. England would rightly say, we are not going to

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carry on with a situation where spending per head in Scotland is so

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much greater than in England. That has consequences. Once you open the

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door and start looking at these issues, there are some difficult

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questions and they have got to be answered before people go to the

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polls, not afterwards. At the moment, the Government is pushing

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through the Scotland Bill. It gives the Scottish parliament the power

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to raise as much as 35% of its own revenue, mostly through a Scottish

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rate of income tax with the rest coming in a block grant from

:22:29.:22:37.

Westminster. It falls short of devo max. So, how much appetite for

:22:37.:22:41.

change is there in Scotland right now? And how much do people really

:22:41.:22:46.

want devo max? In an exclusive poll for the Politics Show we found that

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Scottish public opinion is pretty evenly divided. 29% said they

:22:50.:22:55.

wanted to keep things as they are. Almost the same number supported

:22:55.:23:01.

full independence. The most popular option was devo max, 33% wanted

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increased powers, short of independence. But this is not just

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about Scotland. Devo max would be a fundamental change to how the

:23:12.:23:15.

United Kingdom as a whole is governed. Our polling suggests that

:23:15.:23:19.

England may not be ready for it. There, the most popular option was

:23:19.:23:24.

to keep things as they are. Interestingly, almost a quarter of

:23:24.:23:29.

our England sample thought that Scotland should go it alone.

:23:29.:23:32.

However, devo max, full powers short of independence, was only

:23:32.:23:36.

supported by 14% of those in England. That could be a problem

:23:36.:23:44.

that that was the option chosen by Scotland. Devo max is actually UK

:23:44.:23:47.

federalism. Scotland cannot impose that on the rest of the country.

:23:47.:23:53.

Neither should we. Can you imagine the outcry in Scotland of the

:23:53.:23:55.

English people wanted to impose a form of government on Scotland

:23:55.:23:58.

against their wishes? There is nothing to stop the Scottish

:23:58.:24:02.

government holding a referendum. But only Westminster has the power

:24:02.:24:07.

to make it binding. Scotland can demand what it wishes to demand. At

:24:07.:24:12.

the end of the day, it can't expect to get everything and anything it

:24:12.:24:17.

wants. There must be negotiation. The rest of the big -- United

:24:17.:24:21.

Kingdom must be involved. So devo max is perhaps a messier option

:24:21.:24:26.

than either status quo or independence. The SNP's referendum

:24:26.:24:30.

is not planned to happen for at least another couple of years. The

:24:30.:24:34.

Unionist parties have yet to formulate a response. The questions

:24:34.:24:38.

it raises means that this is a pressing issue, not just for

:24:38.:24:44.

Scotland's political landscape but for Britain as well.

:24:44.:24:47.

The Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore joins us now from

:24:47.:24:55.

Edinburgh. Thank you for being with us. Do you support devo max?

:24:55.:25:00.

support Scotland continuing within the United Kingdom. As a Liberal

:25:00.:25:02.

Democrat in the coalition government, I am delighted to be

:25:02.:25:07.

piloting more powers for Scotland through Westminster so that we can

:25:07.:25:13.

give the huge economic powers that your report pointed out. But we

:25:13.:25:17.

would retain Scotland firmly in the UK. That interest in poll shows us

:25:17.:25:22.

that the demand for independence is actually still at the historical

:25:22.:25:29.

levels it has been, and declining. In Scotland, the debate is moving

:25:29.:25:33.

on. People are beginning to worry about the possibility of a rigged

:25:33.:25:42.

referendum. If more powers was the choice of the people of Scotland,

:25:42.:25:48.

if independence got a majority of 51%, more powers 90%, that we would

:25:48.:25:52.

somehow become independent. It feeds into uncertainty that people

:25:52.:25:56.

are concerned about. In the business community, as we saw what

:25:56.:26:02.

Citigroup, and their big warning about the investment in renewables.

:26:02.:26:06.

Let's go back to my question, do you support devo max? You say that

:26:06.:26:11.

you support your party in the Scotland Bill, you don't want

:26:11.:26:15.

independence, we know that. Would you like to see home rule for

:26:15.:26:19.

Scotland with a full tax-raising powers and only foreign affairs and

:26:19.:26:24.

defence dealt with by Westminster? As a liberal, I have supported home

:26:24.:26:31.

rule for as long as I have been a member of the party. My party is

:26:31.:26:33.

continuing to develop what home rule means in a modern context.

:26:33.:26:38.

We're working through that at the moment. Wait a minute. The point is

:26:38.:26:42.

that, over time in Scotland, while we have developed our thinking

:26:42.:26:47.

about devolution, we have developed the idea is on numerous occasions.

:26:47.:26:51.

We have then sought to get common ground and consensus with other

:26:51.:26:55.

parties, with business, trade unions, civic Scotland. Then, when

:26:55.:27:00.

we've got the mandate, we have legislated. At the moment, with

:27:00.:27:04.

respect to your poll, many people oppose the idea of devo max. It is

:27:04.:27:08.

ill-defined. It is something the First Minister talks about, without

:27:08.:27:12.

telling us what it means. That's not surprising, he doesn't tell us

:27:12.:27:16.

what independence means. Until we get that clear, the people Scotland

:27:16.:27:20.

can't be expected to make an informed decision. If you could

:27:20.:27:24.

clarify, would you like to seek a question about that on the ballot

:27:25.:27:30.

paper? What the Scottish people want is a clear choice. They got

:27:30.:27:33.

their mandate to bring forward a referendum. But they haven't spelt

:27:33.:27:37.

out the details of when it will come and what it will be about. I

:27:37.:27:39.

think the critical thing with growing uncertainty in the business

:27:39.:27:43.

community, with people worried about a rigged referendum is that

:27:43.:27:48.

we get a clear question, a decisive answer and then we can get on with

:27:48.:27:51.

focusing on what people want us to focus on, the future of jobs and

:27:51.:27:58.

economy. We heard in that film that has will maybe be 2014, the date of

:27:58.:28:01.

the referendum. Ruth Davidson, the new leader of the Conservatives,

:28:01.:28:06.

has said that it Alex Salmond is not going to tell us, London and

:28:06.:28:09.

Westminster should decide when it should be. Would you support that?

:28:09.:28:12.

This is a matter for the First Minister. He is the one that

:28:12.:28:15.

brought forward the proposition. He has been very sketchy about the

:28:15.:28:20.

details of what he will do and when. We need to get that clarified. We

:28:20.:28:24.

have repeatedly asked for details of the referendum to be spelt out,

:28:24.:28:28.

for us to see a draft bill so that we can see what is proposed. My

:28:28.:28:33.

priority, as a double Democrat, we are reducing taxes for hard-working

:28:33.:28:39.

families across the country. We are trying to sort out the economy in

:28:39.:28:43.

the context of the terrible problems in the international

:28:43.:28:46.

economy. Meanwhile, we have uncertainty about what question

:28:46.:28:52.

will be asked and when. We want to see it sorted. The First Minister

:28:52.:28:56.

can do that. If devo max came about, you can get as far as you can go

:28:56.:29:00.

without devolution without having full independence. Doesn't the West

:29:00.:29:06.

Lothian question become even more acute? How can Danny Alexander the

:29:06.:29:11.

ruling as the Chief Secretary for Britain, for England, when in

:29:11.:29:15.

Scotland, in his constituency, next to no one will be affected? I don't

:29:16.:29:20.

think there is dispute anywhere in the UK that we need to look at the

:29:20.:29:23.

constitution of the whole United Kingdom. That, as a coalition

:29:23.:29:26.

government, is what we are doing with the coalition on the West

:29:26.:29:31.

Lothian Commission, question, Surrey, and we are looking ahead.

:29:31.:29:35.

Once the finances are sorted out, we are looking at how we are

:29:35.:29:39.

allocating funding around the United Kingdom. The comments in

:29:39.:29:45.

your report are increasing something very important, that devo

:29:46.:29:52.

max is about the UK at as a whole. Let's hope the whole of the country

:29:52.:29:57.

is involved in that debate. Alex Salmond joins us now from

:29:57.:30:03.

Aberdeenshire. Thanks for being The First Minister of Scotland Alex

:30:03.:30:10.

Salmond joins us now from Aberdeenshire.

:30:10.:30:17.

It is a wonderful day here. What did you make about the poll

:30:17.:30:22.

findings which suggest of the three options possible, independence is

:30:22.:30:28.

the least popular? The one thing you can tell from the

:30:28.:30:33.

opinion polls is in every single poll, the support for independence

:30:33.:30:41.

is increasing. One month ago, with a straight question on yes or No to

:30:41.:30:47.

independence, we got a majority of support for independence. But your

:30:47.:30:54.

poll says that the vast majority of people, 2-One, want to go much

:30:54.:30:57.

further than the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster are

:30:57.:31:03.

proposing. The appetite for change in Scotland is substantial and it

:31:03.:31:08.

is growing. You talked about that other poll, what was the sample,

:31:08.:31:14.

wasn't it 180 people only? No, I am talking about the Scottish poll in

:31:15.:31:19.

September which asked the question, do you support independence and it

:31:19.:31:25.

got majority. Unlike your poll by the same organisation which did not

:31:25.:31:31.

include all the options which gave that spread. Even your poll

:31:31.:31:37.

indicates that the vast majority of people in Scotland want far more

:31:38.:31:42.

economic power than the UK government is suggesting. I support

:31:42.:31:46.

independence but I also support the choices of the people of Scotland.

:31:46.:31:50.

I am not going to join the Westminster band like Michael Moore

:31:50.:31:56.

who want to foreclose on people's choices. When will you answer those

:31:56.:31:59.

questions Michael Moore set out about when the referendum is going

:31:59.:32:06.

to be and what the questions are going to be? We campaigned in the

:32:06.:32:12.

election, and said we would have a referendum on a straight question

:32:12.:32:16.

of independence and it would take place in the second half of this

:32:16.:32:23.

parliamentary term, with the option of asking a question on the devo

:32:23.:32:29.

max and financial responsibility. In response to that time scale, we

:32:29.:32:34.

got the most overwhelming mandate in Scottish political history, an

:32:34.:32:40.

absolute majority in a proportional representational system which had

:32:40.:32:45.

been designed to stop that have been. Having promised the people to

:32:45.:32:50.

hold a referendum on that timescale, why would I go back on that now and

:32:50.:32:55.

take orders from the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster? The

:32:55.:32:59.

people in Scotland are in charge of this process. A bit people do vote

:32:59.:33:05.

for independence, what would be the currency? We would keep stirring

:33:05.:33:15.
:33:15.:33:16.

until such time it was an advantage to move elsewhere -- sterling.

:33:16.:33:22.

you still want to join the euro? There are good arguments, but only

:33:22.:33:25.

when it is stabilised and to Scotland's economic advantage and

:33:25.:33:31.

with the support of the people in a referendum. Until such time, then

:33:31.:33:41.
:33:41.:33:42.

we do not move. The driver for economic independence is about

:33:42.:33:52.
:33:52.:33:55.

controlling the fiscal powers and resources of Scotland. That is the

:33:55.:34:01.

argument in economic terms. There are many arguments on the economy,

:34:01.:34:11.
:34:11.:34:14.

and beyond, on a fair and just society. We read in the newspapers

:34:14.:34:24.
:34:24.:34:25.

about public sector strikes. Say you got independence 10 years

:34:26.:34:32.

ago, you would now marked correction that -- you would by now

:34:32.:34:39.

be part of the euro. RBS would be up in flames, with huge collective

:34:39.:34:48.

liabilities. Scotland would be in a worse state. Or in a better state

:34:48.:34:57.

than the UK, like Sweden, Finland, but incidentally, maybe we would

:34:57.:35:02.

have regulated our backs better, not like Westminster. Maybe we

:35:02.:35:05.

would be joining in with the International Committee to

:35:05.:35:09.

stabilise finances. If Scotland became an independent

:35:09.:35:18.

country, we would be the 6th most prosperous country in the OECD. Not

:35:18.:35:28.
:35:28.:35:32.

just because of oral and gas resources. -- oil. Scottish

:35:32.:35:39.

renewables are also at a massive source of wealth.

:35:39.:35:44.

One of the interesting things here is, would you accept if devo max

:35:44.:35:48.

came in, you would need for fiscal autonomy and the only money spent

:35:48.:35:53.

in Scotland would be the only money raised in Scotland?

:35:53.:35:58.

Yes, the whole principle of devo max is you raise all funds in

:35:58.:36:04.

Scotland and are in charge of all expenditure. If you have for

:36:04.:36:09.

financial and fiscal responsibility, it replaces the current formula. We

:36:09.:36:19.
:36:19.:36:20.

would be hoping for your advocacy and support. If... English people

:36:20.:36:30.
:36:30.:36:30.

are pretty supported -- supportive. If they are really so concerned, in

:36:30.:36:35.

terms of subsidised Scots, why are they not fully supporting the

:36:35.:36:42.

campaign for financial independence?

:36:42.:36:47.

I want to ask who can vote in the referendum? You have taught about

:36:47.:36:52.

the Scottish nation. While Scottish people who live in England or

:36:52.:37:02.

abroad be able to vote? The mandate is from the people

:37:02.:37:09.

resident in Scotland, and includes people who are abroad but

:37:09.:37:14.

registered over the last 10 years. It is the taxation base of Scotland.

:37:14.:37:21.

It is whether you are contributing to Scotland as a country,...

:37:21.:37:26.

what about overseas voters? We do have registered overseas voters at

:37:26.:37:32.

present. This is not unusual or different. That is the basis on

:37:32.:37:37.

which we have a referendum on devolution in 1997. There is no

:37:37.:37:47.
:37:47.:37:50.

real argument about that. Just as in other elections.

:37:50.:37:56.

The bank you very much. -- thank you very much.

:37:56.:37:59.

A little later in the programme, viewers in Scotland can hear what

:37:59.:38:02.

the new leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson makes

:38:02.:38:06.

of all that. For all of us, it's time for the Politics Show where

:38:06.:38:16.
:38:16.:38:16.

Welcome to the London Politics Show. Coming up later, will new financial

:38:16.:38:20.

powers for local authorities revived Council House building in

:38:20.:38:23.

the capital? First, the reputation of the London

:38:23.:38:27.

School of Economics took a serious knock with its links to Colonel

:38:27.:38:32.

Gaddafi and his family and regime were revealed, leading to its

:38:32.:38:36.

director resigning. Did that all lead to a severing of the colleges

:38:36.:38:41.

links with Libya? No, in fact, there have been talks with the new

:38:41.:38:47.

regime about reinstating a training programme for civil servants.

:38:47.:38:53.

Seven years ago, Britain decided it would be better to beat with Libya

:38:53.:38:58.

than not. It was not just Labour who embraced this co-operation. The

:38:58.:39:08.
:39:08.:39:14.

LSE also made friends with Colonel Britain played a role but in the

:39:14.:39:20.

end this is what the Libyans did themselves. Colonel Gaddafi was out

:39:20.:39:25.

enemy again and back in London. Two of the university's leading light

:39:25.:39:31.

resigned. We have learnt the LSE has met with a loo -- the new

:39:31.:39:41.
:39:41.:40:15.

The there are concerns about their willingness or ability to stop

:40:15.:40:19.

human rights abuses by anti- Gaddafi forces beside -- despite

:40:19.:40:29.
:40:29.:40:38.

condemning them. Eyebrows have been raised about the

:40:38.:40:44.

fact the LSE's main contact with the regime was with Mahmoud Jibril,

:40:44.:40:52.

the man who brokered the original deal. Gaddafi was just a figurehead,

:40:52.:40:58.

it was Mahmoud Jibril who gave the money. It is very odd, the whole

:40:58.:41:08.
:41:08.:41:09.

thing. Just typical of the worst kind of academic, self serving, the

:41:09.:41:19.
:41:19.:41:38.

worst kind of materialism. The LSE Could it be that the LSE's rush to

:41:38.:41:48.
:41:48.:41:53.

enter into talks may worsen the Joining us, Lukas Sothus from the

:41:54.:42:00.

LSE student union. Robin Lamb. Were the LSE wrong in

:42:00.:42:04.

providing this training for civil servants under the Gaddafi regime?

:42:04.:42:09.

I do not think they were wrong, no. Questions that troubled the LSE

:42:09.:42:13.

management and led to the resignation were more about the

:42:13.:42:17.

acceptance of funding from the Gaddafi foundation run by Saif al-

:42:17.:42:24.

Islam Gaddafi. I think that is the real problem. It was worth �2

:42:24.:42:29.

million, you do not think that part of the relationship between the

:42:30.:42:34.

Libyan administration under Gaddafi with the LSE was a problem? I do

:42:34.:42:39.

not think so at all. I think the whole policy of normalisation which

:42:39.:42:45.

you should have mentioned, is in the interests of Britain and the

:42:45.:42:51.

whole of the world. It was to try to normalise relations and there

:42:51.:42:53.

were beneficiaries from this which were not necessarily part of the

:42:53.:42:58.

Gaddafi regime but the ordinary people of Libya.

:42:58.:43:02.

For given that, the former director and senior academic recognise the

:43:03.:43:06.

closeness of the links and relationship had become

:43:06.:43:09.

embarrassing and controversial, leading to their resignations. Are

:43:09.:43:14.

you surprised to see so soon, with the new regime, that discussions

:43:14.:43:20.

have started again about resuming links? As I said, adding up in the

:43:20.:43:24.

embarrassment should strictly have been about the course itself. It

:43:24.:43:29.

was more to do with the money taken from the Gaddafi Foundation. I am

:43:29.:43:33.

not at a ball against resuming discussions now up and I hope

:43:33.:43:37.

others will resume discussions with the new Libyan of a tease. They

:43:37.:43:41.

have had a revolution and need to build a new society and economy.

:43:41.:43:46.

There are a lot of good people in Libya and they deserve our support

:43:46.:43:49.

and the way to give that is through engagement.

:43:49.:43:52.

Do you have a problem with the opening discussions with the

:43:52.:44:01.

opponents, the new regime? The LSE is an educational institution, it

:44:01.:44:07.

is not a front for British foreign policy. Our universities should be

:44:07.:44:11.

wondering, did we go too far in these relations with Libya. And we

:44:11.:44:16.

talk about a new regime but there isn't a new regime in place, it is

:44:16.:44:23.

a transitional council. There have not been democratic elections yet.

:44:23.:44:29.

It is too rushed to engage in these deals. Robin Lamb says there wasn't

:44:29.:44:33.

a problem with the training provided for a civil service for

:44:33.:44:37.

government managers. If the National Transitional Council wants

:44:37.:44:41.

to turn into way government, it needs to get training from places

:44:41.:44:49.

There are many ways that Libyans will servants can get support from

:44:49.:44:53.

the international community. Our institution is an academic

:44:53.:44:56.

institution. We are not here to support or go against British

:44:56.:45:03.

foreign policy. That is not what we should be concerned with. Rather

:45:03.:45:07.

than taking a stance in Libya, we should follow what was said at the

:45:07.:45:11.

time. The late scholar Fred Halliday said this is extremely

:45:12.:45:21.

problematic. It is not worth the risk. If they are coming to the LSE

:45:21.:45:26.

for its expertise, to provide a trained civil service to insure

:45:26.:45:29.

transition and stability in that region, that's got to be a good

:45:29.:45:36.

thing? As I say, our institution is not run on the principles of

:45:36.:45:41.

providing executive education. It is provided on the basis that you

:45:41.:45:44.

apply to university, if you get admission then you go to university.

:45:44.:45:49.

I have spoken to plenty of Libyans at LSE, and there are lots of good

:45:49.:45:52.

Libyan people out there. But I think it is problematic for the

:45:52.:45:56.

institution. Given a history, given the track record of our institution,

:45:56.:46:04.

mired in so much controversy worth Sheikh Said, Satoshi Kanazawa, the

:46:04.:46:08.

academic that was in trouble last year. We have heard some emerging

:46:08.:46:13.

concerns about human rights abuses, potentially about the way that the

:46:13.:46:18.

law could develop. Don't you think at least the LSE has been very

:46:18.:46:21.

hasty in rushing into discussions, or looking like it might be

:46:21.:46:27.

interested in doing a new deal, with the new Libya? I think it will

:46:27.:46:30.

take time for any negotiations on any business relationship to come

:46:31.:46:34.

to fruition. It will be bound up with the formation of the new

:46:34.:46:38.

government. There are certainly a time to start those sorts of things.

:46:38.:46:46.

As you said earlier, it is very important to support the

:46:46.:46:48.

Transitional Council and the creation of the new government,

:46:48.:46:54.

which will take up to 24 months. The last thing we want is anarchy.

:46:54.:46:58.

On the human rights issue, I agree. They have been distressing

:46:58.:47:03.

violations on the side of the revolution. It has been a

:47:03.:47:07.

revolution. People's emotions have got high and that has carried them

:47:07.:47:13.

through against the regular forces. But it is more the position of what

:47:13.:47:19.

the Government has said, which is that it has undertaken to stop

:47:19.:47:22.

human rights abuses and to investigate those that have already

:47:22.:47:27.

been carried out. Robin Lamb in Brighton, thank you very much

:47:27.:47:30.

indeed. 30 years ago, Margaret Thatcher

:47:30.:47:34.

took away many council freedoms to build new homes and decide what to

:47:34.:47:38.

do with the money from rents and sales. From last -- from next year,

:47:38.:47:42.

much control over local housing finance is being restored to

:47:42.:47:45.

councils. A new report, commissioned by London Council,

:47:45.:47:49.

says the reforms could allow them to build a significant number of

:47:49.:47:52.

new homes for the first time in decades. We asked Michael Collins,

:47:52.:47:57.

who made a documentary on the history of housing, to assess what

:47:57.:48:04.

Castle Housing was introduced over a century ago to address the

:48:05.:48:08.

housing conditions of the working classes. Most notably in those

:48:08.:48:13.

darker streets of London, that were considered to be slum-like and

:48:13.:48:20.

unfit for human habitation. This estate, the Redbrook estate in

:48:20.:48:24.

Westminster, is one of the first to be built, just down the road from

:48:24.:48:28.

the Houses of Parliament. Council housing is again on the agenda to

:48:28.:48:32.

address the current potential housing crisis. In the 21st century,

:48:32.:48:37.

who is council housing for and what should it look like? This question

:48:37.:48:42.

of who it is for came up in the 1970s. It had largely been for the

:48:42.:48:46.

working classes and all that. Back row. But the Labour government

:48:46.:48:50.

brought in legislation in 1977 that made the homeless a priority.

:48:50.:48:54.

Suddenly, council housing was allocated on the basis of need.

:48:54.:49:01.

This created a system that was open to abuse. In the mid-70s, it was a

:49:01.:49:05.

state like this in south-east London, as well as Broadwater Farm

:49:05.:49:10.

in Scotland and nearby North Peckham estate. They were meant to

:49:10.:49:14.

exemplify everything that was good about council housing. Very quickly

:49:14.:49:20.

date became defined or stigmatised by crime, dysfunctional behaviour

:49:20.:49:28.

and dilapidation. So, how is council housing to be allocated in

:49:28.:49:31.

the 21st century? I put the question to the Government minister

:49:31.:49:35.

responsible. It is for any body that needs it, for as long as they

:49:35.:49:39.

need it in their time of need. I think it should be there as a

:49:39.:49:44.

springboard for people to meet their own aspirations. Quite often

:49:44.:49:49.

in this country, people would like to own their own homes, we should

:49:49.:49:52.

enable people to do that when they want to, have decent quality

:49:52.:49:55.

housing available when they don't want to. We need to ensure that

:49:55.:50:01.

social housing, which is limited by its very nature, is at least going

:50:01.:50:04.

to people that are genuinely vulnerable and need that support.

:50:05.:50:08.

But you have got a situation that is different from the past. You

:50:08.:50:12.

have people that can't get onto the property ladder and you've got

:50:12.:50:15.

people renting in the private sector. You've got this need for

:50:15.:50:19.

council homes as well. That goes across the board in somewhere like

:50:19.:50:23.

London, it is cross class, people of all different professions. How

:50:23.:50:27.

do you create a system based on need in that situation? You have to

:50:27.:50:32.

start with a six. Why is housing so unreasonably expensive in this

:50:32.:50:37.

country? Until we solve that problem, until we have housing on a

:50:37.:50:40.

long-term, sustainable footing, and when I used the word affordability,

:50:40.:50:43.

I don't just mean full council tenants, I mean for everybody, then

:50:43.:50:47.

we will not start to solve the problems. It goes beyond housing,

:50:47.:50:52.

it is the social and economic issue of having housing taking up too

:50:52.:50:57.

much of people's monthly expenditure. This is key to the

:50:57.:51:01.

history of castle houses. Two of the things that do find it were

:51:02.:51:05.

affordable rents and assured long- term tenancy. Do you see that

:51:05.:51:08.

applying to council housing in the future as well? Do I think we've

:51:08.:51:13.

got a much more mobile population. In which case, we need 21st century

:51:14.:51:17.

housing that achieves that goal. If we can do that as well by having

:51:17.:51:23.

flexibility. I don't think we are going to go back to monolithic

:51:24.:51:28.

estates. Maybe they were right for their time, in many cases they

:51:28.:51:31.

weren't even right then. I think we can live in a country where we have

:51:31.:51:34.

different kinds of houses, but there is no plaque outside saying

:51:34.:51:37.

that this is a social house, this is a home that has been purchased.

:51:38.:51:43.

They can look and feel very similar. 100 years ago, this street in

:51:43.:51:47.

south-east London would have been filled with tanneries and pubs,

:51:47.:51:52.

workshops and factories. It was an urban, working-class neighbourhood.

:51:53.:51:56.

Now you can see how much the demographic has changed. I feel

:51:56.:51:59.

quite passionate that council housing has a place in London, in

:51:59.:52:03.

the future. But I think it needs to move away from the kind of council

:52:04.:52:08.

housing that came up in the 60s and 70s. These expansive estates that

:52:08.:52:11.

were supposedly homes for the 21st century. But after 30 or 40 years

:52:12.:52:17.

there have been demolished. I think it needs to return to the original

:52:17.:52:20.

ideas of council housing at the beginning of the 20th century, the

:52:20.:52:24.

end of the 19th century. Estates like Millbank. In order to go

:52:24.:52:27.

forward into the future, I think that council housing needs to look

:52:27.:52:34.

to the distant past. Joining me now are a councillor

:52:34.:52:39.

from Lambeth Council, speaking for London Council, the organisation

:52:39.:52:46.

representing London authorities today. Eileen Short is the chair of

:52:46.:52:50.

Defend Council Housing. In their local Istanbul, local authorities

:52:50.:52:56.

having restored to them the rights to spend more of the receipts from

:52:56.:53:03.

rent and so on, how important could that be? The bitter positive change.

:53:03.:53:09.

For many years we had a system that wasn't very transparent and only

:53:09.:53:12.

made sense to a handful of people in the country. The Government

:53:12.:53:15.

collected rents, it awarded a subsidy to local authorities based

:53:15.:53:21.

on a notional debt figure. It was completely incomprehensible to most

:53:21.:53:29.

people. It was done on an annual basis. Tenants were not able to

:53:29.:53:34.

understand how finances was spent. The change that was first

:53:34.:53:38.

introduced by a Labour government, in its last year, and I'm pleased

:53:38.:53:42.

to see it has been adopted by the Conservative government, it enables

:53:42.:53:46.

us to see what we can do over a 30 year period. It enables us to

:53:46.:53:50.

borrow money that we could then invest in our council stock. We

:53:50.:53:56.

could also use it to build council homes. That will vary from bar to

:53:56.:54:03.

borough. In general, it is very positive. Is it nailed down, the

:54:03.:54:07.

details of how much you can borrow and from where? Are there limits on

:54:07.:54:13.

it? It is not all signed on the dotted line. One of the key things

:54:13.:54:17.

I want to get across today is that we are signing up to a 30 a

:54:17.:54:20.

programme of financial management, which is great, because it enables

:54:20.:54:27.

us to work with tenants to assess what their needs are. That is very

:54:27.:54:31.

important. But you can't suddenly change the resources. In Lambeth,

:54:31.:54:35.

one of the key bits of the package is the decent homes money. The

:54:35.:54:39.

Government has reduced that to two fifths of what we need and what we

:54:39.:54:41.

were promised by the Labour government. It is critical that we

:54:42.:54:46.

get that money so that it stacks up. Realistically, a crowded city, it

:54:46.:54:50.

is expensive to build as well. Realistically, what can we see

:54:50.:54:55.

happening? What effect could it have on waiting-lists? Hold on, I

:54:55.:54:59.

don't think that freedom, in itself, will necessarily generate a huge

:54:59.:55:02.

new council house building programme. It will enable some

:55:02.:55:06.

local authorities to do that. Other local authorities, such as the one

:55:06.:55:10.

I represent, will be putting a lot of the money into bringing up two

:55:10.:55:15.

ladies and standard the homes that we've got. Let's hear what Eileen

:55:15.:55:19.

Short thinks of this. Do you think it has been overstated? Is this

:55:20.:55:23.

somehow going to lead to a revolution or a resumption of

:55:23.:55:25.

serious housebuilding, providing enough housing for the people that

:55:25.:55:33.

want it? The 5 million people on housing waiting lists, I think we

:55:33.:55:38.

definitely need a big programme to build more council houses. We need

:55:38.:55:41.

1 million new council houses nationally over the next five or 10

:55:41.:55:46.

years. The problem, I think, with this package is that it has been

:55:46.:55:51.

set up to fail. We have already, in face of what they call self

:55:52.:55:55.

financing for councils, we have got councils saying that they are going

:55:55.:56:00.

to demolish over 1000 homes to reduce their debt. We've got

:56:00.:56:03.

Barking and Dagenham council saying they might privatise all of their

:56:03.:56:09.

council housing. This is all because it has been set up to fail

:56:09.:56:14.

because there is not enough money being put in. But local authorities

:56:14.:56:19.

make decisions locally about how much they can afford to borrow,

:56:19.:56:23.

what they need. That's got to be a good thing, to take central

:56:23.:56:28.

government out of the equation? Well, what the Government is doing

:56:28.:56:33.

is continuing the robbery of rents and the receipts from the sale of

:56:33.:56:37.

housing. It is building that into the debt figure, which they are

:56:37.:56:42.

dumping of local authorities. Even according to the Government's own

:56:43.:56:46.

research for self financing, the money that they need to put in to

:56:46.:56:50.

make this really sustainable for council housing, which we were

:56:50.:56:55.

promised, is about double what they are putting in. Is that right? The

:56:55.:56:59.

debt is being dumped on you? I do think that there are challenges in

:56:59.:57:03.

the model. But I do think it is an improvement from where we are at.

:57:03.:57:06.

Do we think that by giving councils the ability to be able to borrow,

:57:06.:57:09.

the ability to be able to manage their resources, they will be able

:57:09.:57:14.

to do a better job than national government? Yes, we do. But I don't

:57:14.:57:19.

think all of it will hinge on a council building programme. One of

:57:19.:57:22.

the key things is, and it has been hyped as such than it shouldn't

:57:23.:57:27.

have been, we have a big crisis in London with the availability of

:57:27.:57:32.

housing. Over the last 10 years, waiting lists have increased by 80%.

:57:32.:57:36.

That is a huge demand and it is not going to all come from council

:57:36.:57:39.

house building. It also needs to look at things like housing

:57:39.:57:42.

associations. What I am concerned about is the way that the

:57:42.:57:47.

Government has changed the way housing associations are able to

:57:47.:57:50.

gold. They are making it more likely that it will be tough for

:57:50.:57:53.

them in future. Some of the welfare reforms are going to have a

:57:53.:58:03.

devastating bat... We will be returning to this agenda. Thank you

:58:03.:58:13.
:58:13.:58:14.

That is all we've got time for this week. We've heard a lot recently

:58:14.:58:17.

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