Browse content similar to 06/11/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This week on the Politics Show. Late on Friday, I stood outside the | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
Parliament in Greece watching Papandreou face down his MPs in a | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
knife-edge confidence vote. He won. Tomorrow, the international markets | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
will give their verdict. So is this Greek tragedy beginning its final | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
Does Ed Miliband support the St Paul's protesters here at home? He | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
says this morning that only the "reckless" would ignore the "danger | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
signals". And David Thompson is in the skies | :00:30. | :00:38. | |
over Glasgow. The SNP believe it's time for Scotland to fly solo. But | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
could a plan to keep the UK in one piece actually have a profound | :00:42. | :00:51. | |
In the capital, months after it was condemned over its links with | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
Colonel Gaddafi, the LSE is in talks over a training deal with the | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
new regime. Could we soon see a new wave of Council House building here | :01:01. | :01:11. | |
:01:11. | :01:13. | ||
I'll be talking to Labour's Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna. | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
And to two Scottish political heavyweights: Secretary of State | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
Michael Moore. And the First Minister himself, Alex Salmond. | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Joining me for the whole programme today, Rowenna Davis from The | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
Guardian. And The Spectator's political editor, James Forsyth. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
But first, the news with Adam Parsons. | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
Good afternoon, The Labour leader Ed Miliband has warned that "only | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
the most reckless" would ignore the message from anti-capitalist | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
protesters camped outside St Paul's Cathedral. Writing in today's | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
Observer newspaper, Mr Miliband says they reflect a frustration in | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
mainstream Britain about the disparity between people's values | :01:44. | :01:54. | |
:01:54. | :01:58. | ||
and the way the country is run, as The Occupy protesters have been | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
camped outside St Paul's for three weeks, causing the temporary | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
closure of the cathedral and resignations at the top of the | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
Church. In an interview today, Ed Miliband warned that only the most | :02:11. | :02:21. | |
:02:21. | :02:23. | ||
rectus would ignore or dismiss the I think the question of whether the | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
protests day is to be negotiated between the protesters, St Paul's | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
and the Corporation of London. My point is different, politics has to | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
recognise that, on this occasion, they may be a few hundred people | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
protesting at St Paul's, but there are millions and millions who are | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
thinking, the protesters, is not what I would do, but there are | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
issues which need to be talked about. Mr Miliband said many would | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
not agree with the protesters but he warned people let felt -- people | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
felt let down. The Prime Minister has been more cautious in his | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
response. Last week he said the Archbishop of Canterbury had spoken | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
for the whole country when he called for greater responsibility | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
at the top of society. He also said the freedom to demonstrate does not | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
include pitching a tent anywhere in London. The banker chosen by St | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
Paul's to head a group reconnecting the financial with the ethical, has | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
warned the market economy has slipped its moral moorings with | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
disastrous consequences. Within the last half hour, the Transport | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Secretary Justine Greening has visited the site of the M5 crash | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
which claimed seven lives on Friday night. The motorway is likely to | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
remain closed between junctions 24 and 25 near Taunton in Somerset for | :03:40. | :03:48. | |
the rest of the day. Our reporter Louise Hubball is there. | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
This police investigation here it is still very much under way, the | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
police have confirmed to ask no more bodies have been discovered | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
here overnight, so the number of people who have been killed in this | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
horrific accident remains at seven. But the police investigation is | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
continuing, much of the wreckage was removed overnight. All of the | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
vehicles taken away. There remains an awful lot of debris. Dozens of | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
officers are still on site sifting through that debris, that | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
painstaking investigation continuing, to try and pieced | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
together what has happened here. The police are using a digger to | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
lift away some of that debris. It has been suggested the M5 will | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
remain closed until at least tomorrow morning. It seems, from | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
looking at those images of the motorway surface, that some | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
resurfacing of that section of that road will need to be done. Justine | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Greening, the Transport Secretary, is here, taking a look at this | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
painstaking investigation, as the police tried to work out how this | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
accident happened. Holiday companies are warning that the | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
number of ordinary tourists expected to visit London next | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
summer during the Olympics could plummet. The European Tour | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Operators Association says bookings are down by an average of 90%. It | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
says visitors are being deterred by inflated hotel prices, and a | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
misconception that all rooms have been sold to sports fans. | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are to make Kensington Palace their | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
permanent London home. They'll move into an apartment where Princess | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
Margaret used to live in two years' time, using other accommodation | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
there in the meantime. Their new home is being refurbished at the | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
taxpayers' expense. Palace officials says costs will be kept | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
to a minimum. There's more news here on BBC One | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
at 6pm. Until then, have a good afternoon. | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
It's a great filmic device to start with. A whole bunch of seemingly | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
separate, disparate events, and then seeing how they all come | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
together to form a central narrative. This week, a stockbroker | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
goes bust in New York. Greece teeters on the edge. The IMF moves | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
into Italy. World leaders gather in Cannes. And a bunch of protesters | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
sleep in tents at the foot of St Paul's. Ed Miliband has spoken | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
about the protesters and the fact they seem to represent much wider | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
concern, do they? Yes, I think they completely and utterly do. Ed | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
Miliband is right to say they have a right to be there. Actually they | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
do express a much wider grievance in society. Not everybody wants to | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
go down there and pitch their tent, that is understandable. For those | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
who do, they should be allowed to voice their opinion. Ed Miliband is | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
lucky he believes in politics, that being a politician can help to | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
solve these crises. But many on the streets feel this is their last | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
resort, that they're not being listened to. Do you agree? | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
I don't think anyone can be happy with how the system is working. If | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
you are in favour of responsibility, you can't be happy with bankers | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
paying themselves massive bonuses years after the Bank's new brought | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
down the financial system. These protesters, what is remarkable is | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
how few people there are when you consider how unpopular bankers are, | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
how justified people are to fill with their discontent with the | :07:20. | :07:28. | |
system. We will see David Cameron going back to morally responsible | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
capitalism. The Chocolate Orange speech was saying, some of | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
corporate behaviour it is not practical to regulate again, but we | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
should call up companies who behave badly. Is that enough? It is very | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
political risk for Ed Miliband? People will be looking at the | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
protesters, thinking, you are making a mess of our national | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
monument, what are you doing there? It is tricky timing with | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
Remembrance Sunday. It would be a gesture to say, we will clear a way | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
next Sunday and come back. Miliband is saying, I understand | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
the anger felt by protesters which is also felt by a lot of people in | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
the country. He is not saying they should carry on or advocating other | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
people go down there. The other thing, that is what a democracy is | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
about, we have a right to put our tent down. Yes, sometimes it is | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
difficult but we have to negotiate. Those protesters are peaceful. | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
It's been another rollercoaster week for the world economy. Plenty | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
of ups, plenty of downs. And, like any good roller coaster ride, it | :08:40. | :08:49. | |
has left many left feeling terribly Home of the film festival, | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
Hollywood's glittering beau monde. This week, Cannes saw no glamour, | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
and you can forget Marilyn Monroe, Hepburn and instead, Nicolas | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
Sarkozy, David Cameron and a bemused Barack Obama took their | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
place on the red carpet as the leaders of the G20 came to | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
Croisette. Last week in Brussels, Europe thought they had an | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
agreement on the Greek bail out but suddenly the Greeks insisted on a | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
referendum. And we turned from Life Is Sweet to Apocalypse Now. This is | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
the Madness of King George, a Greek tragedy starring George Papandreou. | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
He ditched the referendum and had high noon with his Parliament late | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
on Friday. That country's Long Day's Journey Into Night is far | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
from over. If Greece is not saved, we will see chaos, an international | :09:41. | :09:51. | |
:09:51. | :09:51. | ||
banking, good in -- Armageddon. It won't be confined to Greece, the | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
G20 has an Italian job. The decks in Italy are vast, world leaders | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
are getting Brassed Off. Two fifths of our exports go to the eurozone. | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
If they go down like the Titanic, so could we. David Cameron will not | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
commit to the bail-out but he has agreed to increase what we give to | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
the IMF which is already �29 billion. So can this disaster movie | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
have a happy ending? Is there a great escape? Everyone is trying to | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
do the right thing but there is no Stallone or Bruce Willis waiting in | :10:29. | :10:39. | |
:10:39. | :10:40. | ||
the wings, and all too easily, tragedy can turn to fast. -- farce. | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
Labour's Shadow Business Secretary, Chuka Umunna is with me. | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
What difference... You have been saying David Cameron should have | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
done more. With Ed Miliband, how would it have been different at the | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
G20? I would ask you to contrast the approaches of Alistair Darling | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
and Gordon Brown. But that was a banking crisis, not eurozone. | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
is also a financial crisis. What I am try to do is illustrate to the | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
leadership which is needed. Gordon Brown was ridiculed for chartering | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
a plane, encouraging world leaders who were not that it -- intending | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
to attend, locking them in a room and insisting that the details of | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
the agreements were discussed. it can't be the case David Cameron | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
could be in the driving seat, dealing with the eurozone crisis, | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
when Britain is not part of the eurozone and decisions? We are | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
uniquely placed, partly because we have the city, the major financial | :11:52. | :12:02. | |
:12:02. | :12:03. | ||
services centre in the world. There is a role there for the country to | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
play. On a wider level, it is not just a failure of leadership on the | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
part of the Prime Minster and Chancellor, but across the board. | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
We're not clear run the details. I looked at the communique which | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
spoke about an action plan for growth in jobs with a focus on | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
youth unemployment. What is the gunmen doing here to tackle youth | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
unemployment which has passed 900,000? What would Ed Miliband and | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
Ed Balls do? We would be instituted a feature jobs find scheme to get | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
people back into work to make a real difference. | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
Let us look at the other specifics. Danny Alexander has been speaking | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
to the BBC, talking about the ceiling of what could be the | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
contributions of Britain to the IMF. We thought the maximum it could be | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
without going to Parliament was a �20 billion. Danny Alexander spoke | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
about �40 billion. We need a detail. It is usual practice after a summit | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
like this for the Prime Minster to come to the Commons to give the | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
details which is what we need. We are not very clear from what Danny | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
Alexander said this morning what the commitment would be. It is | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
important to state that what we do here, we stand behind the IMF. And | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
we guarantee its funds. One of the things Christine Lagarde said on | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
Friday was that she had been given an assurance by the world leaders | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
that she would be given all necessary resources. What does that | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
mean? We need the Prime Minster to come to Parliament and explain this | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
to us and if he does not we will be asking the Speaker to make sure. | :13:53. | :14:01. | |
I am sure there will be a statement. What if it is said we do not need a | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
boat, because of special instruments? This is a | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
controversial area. Effectively, that money by a back door go | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
towards the euro zone. The key thing for us in relation to the IMF | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
is, it isn't the job of the IMF to step in and perform the function of | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
the European Central Bank, and the bail out fund. IMF funds are there | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
to help individual countries which are facing solvency crisis, not to | :14:37. | :14:47. | |
:14:47. | :14:48. | ||
Should they ECB be the Llanddarog last resort? You would expect that. | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
So he will be able to earth persuade Angela Merkel that? | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
asked if the European Central Bank should perform the role of a | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
central bank in Europe. That is what it should do. You're asking if | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
Ed Miliband would be able to instruct Angela Merkel... You have | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
made play over the last couple of days about the failure of | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
leadership. I'm interested if you think that Ed Miliband would be the | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
one to quash her over the head and changed her view? It isn't about as | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
quashing any of our counterparts over the head. What we want them to | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
come forward with is a solution. As you said in the lead-up to this | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
discussion, this has a massive effect on our economy. It isn't | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
just that a large amount of traders are in the euro-zone, the banks had | :15:36. | :15:44. | |
a certain amount of exposure as well. The Robin Hood Tax, the Tobin | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
tax, the transaction tax on banks, whatever you want to call it. You | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
are in favour? In principle, we like it. But it has to be something | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
done on a global basis, in particular, the Americans need to | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
be involved. Otherwise, it would leave the city exposed and it would | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
not achieve the aim we wanted to. What about if the European Union | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
pressed ahead and it wasn't global? That would hit Britain hard? That | :16:10. | :16:19. | |
is why we are saying it needs to be buy into it. Ed Miliband's comments | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
about St Paul's Cathedral and the protests this morning, would you go | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
down and join them? Well, I'm not sure it is a question of whether I | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
would go out there and drawing them or not. I think there is a bigger | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
issue. What they demonstrate is an unease with the situation that we | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
find ourselves in. Do you support them? Well, I don't think it's a | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
question of... It's a straight question! Do you have sympathy with | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
them? It's not a question of whether rise support or sympathise. | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
The challenge for politicians is to answer the questions they are | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
raising and address the concerns people have. What I would say is | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
that they represent a growing unease, which has felt across | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
families and businesses in the whole of the country. They don't | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
have a monopoly on that anger about the system that we have at the | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
moment. The question is, what are the answers we are going to come up | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
with? Did people let me to sit inside a tent? No, they elect | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
politicians to come up with the solutions to the problems they face. | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
99% played by the rules, the one presented use that. That seems a | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
little simplistic. The do you think the 1% includes the politicians | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
that have spectacularly failed to regulate the banks, who have bailed | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
out the banks without restrictions, does that include people from the | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
last government? Well, you're asking me whether that... Are no, | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
in your opinion. Does the 1% include the people that set up the | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
regulatory system that failed, that let the banks run riot? I've no | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
idea whether that is the perception. Do we have a responsibility? Over | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
our time in government, should we have better regulated the banks? Of | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
course. We have said that. We have to accept responsibility and I am | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
happy to do that. I think we should be humble enough to do that. | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
issue I am most interested in at the moment is whether Labour is | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
going to let the Conservatives get away with what seemed to me as a | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
massive failure in Cannes. Similarly, billions of pounds of | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
British taxpayers' money is now going to be going into the IMF, to | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
effectively bail out the eurozone. We didn't benefit from the euro, at | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
the same time we are going to be paying for them. Don't you think we | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
need a vote on this issue? As I said earlier, let's see the details. | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
At the moment, we don't know what we are being asked to vote for. The | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
number one concern people have in this country is the lack of growth. | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
We have had 0.5% growth as a result of government policies over the | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
last year. The worrying thing is that this is before you have | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
factored in the effect of the euro- zone crisis on our economy. We have | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
to leave it there. Now, six months ago the SNP won a stunning victory | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
in elections for the Scottish parliament. They crushed Labour in | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
its heartlands and wiped the Lib Dems of the face of mainland | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
Scotland. It has promised to hold a referendum on independence in | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
Scotland at some point commands some people already have the | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
anniversary of the battle -- Battle of Bannockburn circled in their | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
diaries. They would like to just be a straight yes or no. But there is | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
another option, it's called devolution max. Some people would | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
like that on the ballot paper as well. We sent David Thomson home to | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
Glasgow to find out more. Not much beats the duty of the | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
Scottish landscape, even just a few miles outside of Glasgow. The | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
political map is pretty fascinating as well. There is a real | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
possibility that Scotland will reinvent its relationship with the | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
rest of the UK with a referendum on independence. The SNP insist that | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
it is time to fly solo. But there is another option on the table. It | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
is called devo max. The idea is that Scotland remains in the UK but | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
is given tax-raising powers and responsibility for virtually | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
everything apart from defence and foreign policy. It keeps the Queen | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
and it keeps the pound. It is not independence, but it is pretty damn | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
close. That is why it is controversial. This is essentially | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
the maximum amount of powers we can have in terms of devolution. It's | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
also the ability of Scotland to raise taxes in Scotland to pay for | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
the services that we provide. I fear that if we don't have an | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
alternative to independence in the form of some kind of fiscal | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
autonomy, devo max, then I think the SNP will continue to do well. I | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
believe this keeps us in the Union, but it also means we transform the | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
relationship of Scotland within the Union. It also means that Scotland | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
will travel much further down do devolution road. You might expect a | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
former First Minister of Scotland to want more powers for Scotland. | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
But what about the view from London? There are some English Tory | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
MPs that are up for devo max, but with strings. If the Scottish | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
people want more physical autonomy, as a democrat I find it difficult | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
to see that is something we can object to. But it has to be honest | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
and fair to the rest of the Union. That means ending the current | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
subsidy that the Scots get, which is arbitrary and unfair because it | :21:30. | :21:37. | |
is not linked to the rest of the country. We also have to deal with | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
Scottish MPs in Westminster voting on issues that affect every voter | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
in the country apart from their own. Some people think that is a trap | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
for Scotland. You can negotiate for more powers, but you've got to | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
understand that if you take some of the good things, if you want to get | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
the oil revenues, then you've also got to accept that there is a huge | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
spending imbalance. England would rightly say, we are not going to | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
carry on with a situation where spending per head in Scotland is so | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
much greater than in England. That has consequences. Once you open the | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
door and start looking at these issues, there are some difficult | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
questions and they have got to be answered before people go to the | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
polls, not afterwards. At the moment, the Government is pushing | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
through the Scotland Bill. It gives the Scottish parliament the power | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
to raise as much as 35% of its own revenue, mostly through a Scottish | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
rate of income tax with the rest coming in a block grant from | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
Westminster. It falls short of devo max. So, how much appetite for | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
change is there in Scotland right now? And how much do people really | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
want devo max? In an exclusive poll for the Politics Show we found that | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
Scottish public opinion is pretty evenly divided. 29% said they | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
wanted to keep things as they are. Almost the same number supported | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
full independence. The most popular option was devo max, 33% wanted | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
increased powers, short of independence. But this is not just | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
about Scotland. Devo max would be a fundamental change to how the | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
United Kingdom as a whole is governed. Our polling suggests that | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
England may not be ready for it. There, the most popular option was | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
to keep things as they are. Interestingly, almost a quarter of | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
our England sample thought that Scotland should go it alone. | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
However, devo max, full powers short of independence, was only | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
supported by 14% of those in England. That could be a problem | :23:36. | :23:44. | |
that that was the option chosen by Scotland. Devo max is actually UK | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
federalism. Scotland cannot impose that on the rest of the country. | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
Neither should we. Can you imagine the outcry in Scotland of the | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
English people wanted to impose a form of government on Scotland | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
against their wishes? There is nothing to stop the Scottish | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
government holding a referendum. But only Westminster has the power | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
to make it binding. Scotland can demand what it wishes to demand. At | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
the end of the day, it can't expect to get everything and anything it | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
wants. There must be negotiation. The rest of the big -- United | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
Kingdom must be involved. So devo max is perhaps a messier option | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
than either status quo or independence. The SNP's referendum | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
is not planned to happen for at least another couple of years. The | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
Unionist parties have yet to formulate a response. The questions | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
it raises means that this is a pressing issue, not just for | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
Scotland's political landscape but for Britain as well. | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
The Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore joins us now from | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
Edinburgh. Thank you for being with us. Do you support devo max? | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
support Scotland continuing within the United Kingdom. As a Liberal | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
Democrat in the coalition government, I am delighted to be | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
piloting more powers for Scotland through Westminster so that we can | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
give the huge economic powers that your report pointed out. But we | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
would retain Scotland firmly in the UK. That interest in poll shows us | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
that the demand for independence is actually still at the historical | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
levels it has been, and declining. In Scotland, the debate is moving | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
on. People are beginning to worry about the possibility of a rigged | :25:33. | :25:42. | |
referendum. If more powers was the choice of the people of Scotland, | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
if independence got a majority of 51%, more powers 90%, that we would | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
somehow become independent. It feeds into uncertainty that people | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
are concerned about. In the business community, as we saw what | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
Citigroup, and their big warning about the investment in renewables. | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
Let's go back to my question, do you support devo max? You say that | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
you support your party in the Scotland Bill, you don't want | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
independence, we know that. Would you like to see home rule for | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
Scotland with a full tax-raising powers and only foreign affairs and | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
defence dealt with by Westminster? As a liberal, I have supported home | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
rule for as long as I have been a member of the party. My party is | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
continuing to develop what home rule means in a modern context. | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
We're working through that at the moment. Wait a minute. The point is | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
that, over time in Scotland, while we have developed our thinking | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
about devolution, we have developed the idea is on numerous occasions. | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
We have then sought to get common ground and consensus with other | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
parties, with business, trade unions, civic Scotland. Then, when | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
we've got the mandate, we have legislated. At the moment, with | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
respect to your poll, many people oppose the idea of devo max. It is | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
ill-defined. It is something the First Minister talks about, without | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
telling us what it means. That's not surprising, he doesn't tell us | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
what independence means. Until we get that clear, the people Scotland | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
can't be expected to make an informed decision. If you could | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
clarify, would you like to seek a question about that on the ballot | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
paper? What the Scottish people want is a clear choice. They got | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
their mandate to bring forward a referendum. But they haven't spelt | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
out the details of when it will come and what it will be about. I | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
think the critical thing with growing uncertainty in the business | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
community, with people worried about a rigged referendum is that | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
we get a clear question, a decisive answer and then we can get on with | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
focusing on what people want us to focus on, the future of jobs and | :27:51. | :27:58. | |
economy. We heard in that film that has will maybe be 2014, the date of | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
the referendum. Ruth Davidson, the new leader of the Conservatives, | :28:01. | :28:06. | |
has said that it Alex Salmond is not going to tell us, London and | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
Westminster should decide when it should be. Would you support that? | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
This is a matter for the First Minister. He is the one that | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
brought forward the proposition. He has been very sketchy about the | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
details of what he will do and when. We need to get that clarified. We | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
have repeatedly asked for details of the referendum to be spelt out, | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
for us to see a draft bill so that we can see what is proposed. My | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
priority, as a double Democrat, we are reducing taxes for hard-working | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
families across the country. We are trying to sort out the economy in | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
the context of the terrible problems in the international | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
economy. Meanwhile, we have uncertainty about what question | :28:46. | :28:52. | |
will be asked and when. We want to see it sorted. The First Minister | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
can do that. If devo max came about, you can get as far as you can go | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
without devolution without having full independence. Doesn't the West | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
Lothian question become even more acute? How can Danny Alexander the | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
ruling as the Chief Secretary for Britain, for England, when in | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Scotland, in his constituency, next to no one will be affected? I don't | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
think there is dispute anywhere in the UK that we need to look at the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
constitution of the whole United Kingdom. That, as a coalition | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
government, is what we are doing with the coalition on the West | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
Lothian Commission, question, Surrey, and we are looking ahead. | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
Once the finances are sorted out, we are looking at how we are | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
allocating funding around the United Kingdom. The comments in | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
your report are increasing something very important, that devo | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
max is about the UK at as a whole. Let's hope the whole of the country | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
is involved in that debate. Alex Salmond joins us now from | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
Aberdeenshire. Thanks for being The First Minister of Scotland Alex | :30:03. | :30:10. | |
Salmond joins us now from Aberdeenshire. | :30:10. | :30:17. | |
It is a wonderful day here. What did you make about the poll | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
findings which suggest of the three options possible, independence is | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
the least popular? The one thing you can tell from the | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
opinion polls is in every single poll, the support for independence | :30:33. | :30:41. | |
is increasing. One month ago, with a straight question on yes or No to | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
independence, we got a majority of support for independence. But your | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
poll says that the vast majority of people, 2-One, want to go much | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
further than the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster are | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
proposing. The appetite for change in Scotland is substantial and it | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
is growing. You talked about that other poll, what was the sample, | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
wasn't it 180 people only? No, I am talking about the Scottish poll in | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
September which asked the question, do you support independence and it | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
got majority. Unlike your poll by the same organisation which did not | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
include all the options which gave that spread. Even your poll | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
indicates that the vast majority of people in Scotland want far more | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
economic power than the UK government is suggesting. I support | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
independence but I also support the choices of the people of Scotland. | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
I am not going to join the Westminster band like Michael Moore | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
who want to foreclose on people's choices. When will you answer those | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
questions Michael Moore set out about when the referendum is going | :31:59. | :32:06. | |
to be and what the questions are going to be? We campaigned in the | :32:06. | :32:12. | |
election, and said we would have a referendum on a straight question | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
of independence and it would take place in the second half of this | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
parliamentary term, with the option of asking a question on the devo | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
max and financial responsibility. In response to that time scale, we | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
got the most overwhelming mandate in Scottish political history, an | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
absolute majority in a proportional representational system which had | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
been designed to stop that have been. Having promised the people to | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
hold a referendum on that timescale, why would I go back on that now and | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
take orders from the Tory liberal coalition at Westminster? The | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
people in Scotland are in charge of this process. A bit people do vote | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
for independence, what would be the currency? We would keep stirring | :33:05. | :33:15. | |
:33:15. | :33:16. | ||
until such time it was an advantage to move elsewhere -- sterling. | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
you still want to join the euro? There are good arguments, but only | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
when it is stabilised and to Scotland's economic advantage and | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
with the support of the people in a referendum. Until such time, then | :33:31. | :33:41. | |
:33:41. | :33:42. | ||
we do not move. The driver for economic independence is about | :33:42. | :33:52. | |
:33:52. | :33:55. | ||
controlling the fiscal powers and resources of Scotland. That is the | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
argument in economic terms. There are many arguments on the economy, | :34:01. | :34:11. | |
:34:11. | :34:14. | ||
and beyond, on a fair and just society. We read in the newspapers | :34:14. | :34:24. | |
:34:24. | :34:25. | ||
about public sector strikes. Say you got independence 10 years | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
ago, you would now marked correction that -- you would by now | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
be part of the euro. RBS would be up in flames, with huge collective | :34:39. | :34:48. | |
liabilities. Scotland would be in a worse state. Or in a better state | :34:48. | :34:57. | |
than the UK, like Sweden, Finland, but incidentally, maybe we would | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
have regulated our backs better, not like Westminster. Maybe we | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
would be joining in with the International Committee to | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
stabilise finances. If Scotland became an independent | :35:09. | :35:18. | |
country, we would be the 6th most prosperous country in the OECD. Not | :35:18. | :35:28. | |
:35:28. | :35:32. | ||
just because of oral and gas resources. -- oil. Scottish | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
renewables are also at a massive source of wealth. | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
One of the interesting things here is, would you accept if devo max | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
came in, you would need for fiscal autonomy and the only money spent | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
in Scotland would be the only money raised in Scotland? | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
Yes, the whole principle of devo max is you raise all funds in | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
Scotland and are in charge of all expenditure. If you have for | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
financial and fiscal responsibility, it replaces the current formula. We | :36:09. | :36:19. | |
:36:19. | :36:20. | ||
would be hoping for your advocacy and support. If... English people | :36:20. | :36:30. | |
:36:30. | :36:30. | ||
are pretty supported -- supportive. If they are really so concerned, in | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
terms of subsidised Scots, why are they not fully supporting the | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
campaign for financial independence? | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
I want to ask who can vote in the referendum? You have taught about | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
the Scottish nation. While Scottish people who live in England or | :36:52. | :37:02. | |
abroad be able to vote? The mandate is from the people | :37:02. | :37:09. | |
resident in Scotland, and includes people who are abroad but | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
registered over the last 10 years. It is the taxation base of Scotland. | :37:14. | :37:21. | |
It is whether you are contributing to Scotland as a country,... | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
what about overseas voters? We do have registered overseas voters at | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
present. This is not unusual or different. That is the basis on | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
which we have a referendum on devolution in 1997. There is no | :37:37. | :37:47. | |
:37:47. | :37:50. | ||
real argument about that. Just as in other elections. | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
The bank you very much. -- thank you very much. | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
A little later in the programme, viewers in Scotland can hear what | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
the new leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson makes | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
of all that. For all of us, it's time for the Politics Show where | :38:06. | :38:16. | |
:38:16. | :38:16. | ||
Welcome to the London Politics Show. Coming up later, will new financial | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
powers for local authorities revived Council House building in | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
the capital? First, the reputation of the London | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
School of Economics took a serious knock with its links to Colonel | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
Gaddafi and his family and regime were revealed, leading to its | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
director resigning. Did that all lead to a severing of the colleges | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
links with Libya? No, in fact, there have been talks with the new | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
regime about reinstating a training programme for civil servants. | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
Seven years ago, Britain decided it would be better to beat with Libya | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
than not. It was not just Labour who embraced this co-operation. The | :38:58. | :39:08. | |
:39:08. | :39:14. | ||
LSE also made friends with Colonel Britain played a role but in the | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
end this is what the Libyans did themselves. Colonel Gaddafi was out | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
enemy again and back in London. Two of the university's leading light | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
resigned. We have learnt the LSE has met with a loo -- the new | :39:31. | :39:41. | |
:39:41. | :40:15. | ||
The there are concerns about their willingness or ability to stop | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
human rights abuses by anti- Gaddafi forces beside -- despite | :40:19. | :40:29. | |
:40:29. | :40:38. | ||
condemning them. Eyebrows have been raised about the | :40:38. | :40:44. | |
fact the LSE's main contact with the regime was with Mahmoud Jibril, | :40:44. | :40:52. | |
the man who brokered the original deal. Gaddafi was just a figurehead, | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
it was Mahmoud Jibril who gave the money. It is very odd, the whole | :40:58. | :41:08. | |
:41:08. | :41:09. | ||
thing. Just typical of the worst kind of academic, self serving, the | :41:09. | :41:19. | |
:41:19. | :41:38. | ||
worst kind of materialism. The LSE Could it be that the LSE's rush to | :41:38. | :41:48. | |
:41:48. | :41:53. | ||
enter into talks may worsen the Joining us, Lukas Sothus from the | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
LSE student union. Robin Lamb. Were the LSE wrong in | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
providing this training for civil servants under the Gaddafi regime? | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
I do not think they were wrong, no. Questions that troubled the LSE | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
management and led to the resignation were more about the | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
acceptance of funding from the Gaddafi foundation run by Saif al- | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
Islam Gaddafi. I think that is the real problem. It was worth �2 | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
million, you do not think that part of the relationship between the | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
Libyan administration under Gaddafi with the LSE was a problem? I do | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
not think so at all. I think the whole policy of normalisation which | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
you should have mentioned, is in the interests of Britain and the | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
whole of the world. It was to try to normalise relations and there | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
were beneficiaries from this which were not necessarily part of the | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
Gaddafi regime but the ordinary people of Libya. | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
For given that, the former director and senior academic recognise the | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
closeness of the links and relationship had become | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
embarrassing and controversial, leading to their resignations. Are | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
you surprised to see so soon, with the new regime, that discussions | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
have started again about resuming links? As I said, adding up in the | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
embarrassment should strictly have been about the course itself. It | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
was more to do with the money taken from the Gaddafi Foundation. I am | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
not at a ball against resuming discussions now up and I hope | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
others will resume discussions with the new Libyan of a tease. They | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
have had a revolution and need to build a new society and economy. | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
There are a lot of good people in Libya and they deserve our support | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
and the way to give that is through engagement. | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
Do you have a problem with the opening discussions with the | :43:52. | :44:01. | |
opponents, the new regime? The LSE is an educational institution, it | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
is not a front for British foreign policy. Our universities should be | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
wondering, did we go too far in these relations with Libya. And we | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
talk about a new regime but there isn't a new regime in place, it is | :44:16. | :44:23. | |
a transitional council. There have not been democratic elections yet. | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
It is too rushed to engage in these deals. Robin Lamb says there wasn't | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
a problem with the training provided for a civil service for | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
government managers. If the National Transitional Council wants | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
to turn into way government, it needs to get training from places | :44:41. | :44:49. | |
There are many ways that Libyans will servants can get support from | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
the international community. Our institution is an academic | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
institution. We are not here to support or go against British | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
foreign policy. That is not what we should be concerned with. Rather | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
than taking a stance in Libya, we should follow what was said at the | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
time. The late scholar Fred Halliday said this is extremely | :45:12. | :45:21. | |
problematic. It is not worth the risk. If they are coming to the LSE | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
for its expertise, to provide a trained civil service to insure | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
transition and stability in that region, that's got to be a good | :45:29. | :45:36. | |
thing? As I say, our institution is not run on the principles of | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
providing executive education. It is provided on the basis that you | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
apply to university, if you get admission then you go to university. | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
I have spoken to plenty of Libyans at LSE, and there are lots of good | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
Libyan people out there. But I think it is problematic for the | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
institution. Given a history, given the track record of our institution, | :45:56. | :46:04. | |
mired in so much controversy worth Sheikh Said, Satoshi Kanazawa, the | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
academic that was in trouble last year. We have heard some emerging | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
concerns about human rights abuses, potentially about the way that the | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
law could develop. Don't you think at least the LSE has been very | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
hasty in rushing into discussions, or looking like it might be | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
interested in doing a new deal, with the new Libya? I think it will | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
take time for any negotiations on any business relationship to come | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
to fruition. It will be bound up with the formation of the new | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
government. There are certainly a time to start those sorts of things. | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
As you said earlier, it is very important to support the | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
Transitional Council and the creation of the new government, | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
which will take up to 24 months. The last thing we want is anarchy. | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
On the human rights issue, I agree. They have been distressing | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
violations on the side of the revolution. It has been a | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
revolution. People's emotions have got high and that has carried them | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
through against the regular forces. But it is more the position of what | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
the Government has said, which is that it has undertaken to stop | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
human rights abuses and to investigate those that have already | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
been carried out. Robin Lamb in Brighton, thank you very much | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
indeed. 30 years ago, Margaret Thatcher | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
took away many council freedoms to build new homes and decide what to | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
do with the money from rents and sales. From last -- from next year, | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
much control over local housing finance is being restored to | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
councils. A new report, commissioned by London Council, | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
says the reforms could allow them to build a significant number of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
new homes for the first time in decades. We asked Michael Collins, | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
who made a documentary on the history of housing, to assess what | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
Castle Housing was introduced over a century ago to address the | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
housing conditions of the working classes. Most notably in those | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
darker streets of London, that were considered to be slum-like and | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
unfit for human habitation. This estate, the Redbrook estate in | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
Westminster, is one of the first to be built, just down the road from | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
the Houses of Parliament. Council housing is again on the agenda to | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
address the current potential housing crisis. In the 21st century, | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
who is council housing for and what should it look like? This question | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
of who it is for came up in the 1970s. It had largely been for the | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
working classes and all that. Back row. But the Labour government | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
brought in legislation in 1977 that made the homeless a priority. | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
Suddenly, council housing was allocated on the basis of need. | :48:54. | :49:01. | |
This created a system that was open to abuse. In the mid-70s, it was a | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
state like this in south-east London, as well as Broadwater Farm | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
in Scotland and nearby North Peckham estate. They were meant to | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
exemplify everything that was good about council housing. Very quickly | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
date became defined or stigmatised by crime, dysfunctional behaviour | :49:20. | :49:28. | |
and dilapidation. So, how is council housing to be allocated in | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
the 21st century? I put the question to the Government minister | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
responsible. It is for any body that needs it, for as long as they | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
need it in their time of need. I think it should be there as a | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
springboard for people to meet their own aspirations. Quite often | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
in this country, people would like to own their own homes, we should | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
enable people to do that when they want to, have decent quality | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
housing available when they don't want to. We need to ensure that | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
social housing, which is limited by its very nature, is at least going | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
to people that are genuinely vulnerable and need that support. | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
But you have got a situation that is different from the past. You | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
have people that can't get onto the property ladder and you've got | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
people renting in the private sector. You've got this need for | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
council homes as well. That goes across the board in somewhere like | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
London, it is cross class, people of all different professions. How | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
do you create a system based on need in that situation? You have to | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
start with a six. Why is housing so unreasonably expensive in this | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
country? Until we solve that problem, until we have housing on a | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
long-term, sustainable footing, and when I used the word affordability, | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
I don't just mean full council tenants, I mean for everybody, then | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
we will not start to solve the problems. It goes beyond housing, | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
it is the social and economic issue of having housing taking up too | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
much of people's monthly expenditure. This is key to the | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
history of castle houses. Two of the things that do find it were | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
affordable rents and assured long- term tenancy. Do you see that | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
applying to council housing in the future as well? Do I think we've | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
got a much more mobile population. In which case, we need 21st century | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
housing that achieves that goal. If we can do that as well by having | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
flexibility. I don't think we are going to go back to monolithic | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
estates. Maybe they were right for their time, in many cases they | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
weren't even right then. I think we can live in a country where we have | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
different kinds of houses, but there is no plaque outside saying | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
that this is a social house, this is a home that has been purchased. | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
They can look and feel very similar. 100 years ago, this street in | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
south-east London would have been filled with tanneries and pubs, | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
workshops and factories. It was an urban, working-class neighbourhood. | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
Now you can see how much the demographic has changed. I feel | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
quite passionate that council housing has a place in London, in | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
the future. But I think it needs to move away from the kind of council | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
housing that came up in the 60s and 70s. These expansive estates that | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
were supposedly homes for the 21st century. But after 30 or 40 years | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
there have been demolished. I think it needs to return to the original | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
ideas of council housing at the beginning of the 20th century, the | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
end of the 19th century. Estates like Millbank. In order to go | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
forward into the future, I think that council housing needs to look | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
to the distant past. Joining me now are a councillor | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
from Lambeth Council, speaking for London Council, the organisation | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
representing London authorities today. Eileen Short is the chair of | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
Defend Council Housing. In their local Istanbul, local authorities | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
having restored to them the rights to spend more of the receipts from | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
rent and so on, how important could that be? The bitter positive change. | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
For many years we had a system that wasn't very transparent and only | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
made sense to a handful of people in the country. The Government | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
collected rents, it awarded a subsidy to local authorities based | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
on a notional debt figure. It was completely incomprehensible to most | :53:21. | :53:29. | |
people. It was done on an annual basis. Tenants were not able to | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
understand how finances was spent. The change that was first | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
introduced by a Labour government, in its last year, and I'm pleased | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
to see it has been adopted by the Conservative government, it enables | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
us to see what we can do over a 30 year period. It enables us to | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
borrow money that we could then invest in our council stock. We | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
could also use it to build council homes. That will vary from bar to | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
borough. In general, it is very positive. Is it nailed down, the | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
details of how much you can borrow and from where? Are there limits on | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
it? It is not all signed on the dotted line. One of the key things | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
I want to get across today is that we are signing up to a 30 a | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
programme of financial management, which is great, because it enables | :54:20. | :54:27. | |
us to work with tenants to assess what their needs are. That is very | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
important. But you can't suddenly change the resources. In Lambeth, | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
one of the key bits of the package is the decent homes money. The | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
Government has reduced that to two fifths of what we need and what we | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
were promised by the Labour government. It is critical that we | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
get that money so that it stacks up. Realistically, a crowded city, it | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
is expensive to build as well. Realistically, what can we see | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
happening? What effect could it have on waiting-lists? Hold on, I | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
don't think that freedom, in itself, will necessarily generate a huge | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
new council house building programme. It will enable some | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
local authorities to do that. Other local authorities, such as the one | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
I represent, will be putting a lot of the money into bringing up two | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
ladies and standard the homes that we've got. Let's hear what Eileen | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
Short thinks of this. Do you think it has been overstated? Is this | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
somehow going to lead to a revolution or a resumption of | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
serious housebuilding, providing enough housing for the people that | :55:25. | :55:33. | |
want it? The 5 million people on housing waiting lists, I think we | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
definitely need a big programme to build more council houses. We need | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
1 million new council houses nationally over the next five or 10 | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
years. The problem, I think, with this package is that it has been | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
set up to fail. We have already, in face of what they call self | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
financing for councils, we have got councils saying that they are going | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
to demolish over 1000 homes to reduce their debt. We've got | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
Barking and Dagenham council saying they might privatise all of their | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
council housing. This is all because it has been set up to fail | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
because there is not enough money being put in. But local authorities | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
make decisions locally about how much they can afford to borrow, | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
what they need. That's got to be a good thing, to take central | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
government out of the equation? Well, what the Government is doing | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
is continuing the robbery of rents and the receipts from the sale of | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
housing. It is building that into the debt figure, which they are | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
dumping of local authorities. Even according to the Government's own | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
research for self financing, the money that they need to put in to | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
make this really sustainable for council housing, which we were | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
promised, is about double what they are putting in. Is that right? The | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
debt is being dumped on you? I do think that there are challenges in | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
the model. But I do think it is an improvement from where we are at. | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
Do we think that by giving councils the ability to be able to borrow, | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
the ability to be able to manage their resources, they will be able | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
to do a better job than national government? Yes, we do. But I don't | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
think all of it will hinge on a council building programme. One of | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
the key things is, and it has been hyped as such than it shouldn't | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
have been, we have a big crisis in London with the availability of | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
housing. Over the last 10 years, waiting lists have increased by 80%. | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
That is a huge demand and it is not going to all come from council | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
house building. It also needs to look at things like housing | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
associations. What I am concerned about is the way that the | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
Government has changed the way housing associations are able to | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
gold. They are making it more likely that it will be tough for | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
them in future. Some of the welfare reforms are going to have a | :57:53. | :58:03. | |
devastating bat... We will be returning to this agenda. Thank you | :58:03. | :58:13. | |
:58:13. | :58:14. | ||
That is all we've got time for this week. We've heard a lot recently | :58:14. | :58:17. |