04/12/2011 The Politics Show London


04/12/2011

Jon Sopel and Tim Donovan are here with the top political stories of the week.


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Show. We may have less than a week to save the euro. Merkel and

:00:14.:00:17.

Sarkozy meet tomorrow to try and prevent collapse. They are talking

:00:17.:00:19.

about individual eurozone countries having far less power over their

:00:19.:00:23.

own tax and spend. But what would that mean for us? The Energy

:00:23.:00:27.

Secretary wants a lot more of these. Tens of thousands more, with wind-

:00:27.:00:30.

turbines providing the electricity to run every car in the land. We'll

:00:30.:00:35.

ask him why. Do we want a Boris for Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds and

:00:35.:00:40.

Liverpool? Next year we'll find out with Mayoral referendums in many of

:00:40.:00:43.

England's biggest cities. There will be 41 newly elected police

:00:43.:00:46.

commissioners too. But who is asking for all this extra local

:00:46.:00:56.

democracy? In London, what does the Autumn Statement mean for the

:00:56.:01:02.

capital? We know the Government is borrowing more, but what about us?

:01:02.:01:06.

Do ordinary Londoners need more protection from short-term lenders

:01:06.:01:16.
:01:16.:01:17.

We'll be speaking to Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas

:01:17.:01:20.

Alexander about that crisis in the eurozone, to the Police Minister

:01:20.:01:23.

about those new commissioners next year, and to the Energy Secretary,

:01:23.:01:26.

Chris Huhne, about wind turbines and the big climate change talks in

:01:26.:01:29.

Durban. Joining me throughout the programme are Tim Montgomerie,

:01:29.:01:31.

editor of the website ConservativeHome, and by Anne

:01:31.:01:36.

McElvoy, Public Policy Editor of the Economist Magazine. But first

:01:36.:01:41.

the news with Tim Willcox. The Deputy Prime Minister Nick

:01:41.:01:44.

Clegg says the coalition would legislate if necessary to curb

:01:44.:01:47.

excessive executive pay. Mr Clegg said it was important that the

:01:47.:01:50.

private sector shared some of the economic pain, along with public

:01:50.:01:54.

sector employees facing pay caps and increased pension contributions.

:01:54.:01:57.

His comments came as Lord Hutton, who reviewed public sector pensions

:01:57.:01:59.

for the coalition, said the Government's proposals for the

:01:59.:02:08.

sector were perfectly credible. Terry Stiastny reports. Are week

:02:09.:02:14.

all in this together or are some more in it than others? Well the

:02:14.:02:17.

government tries to keep the costs of the public sector down, there is

:02:17.:02:21.

some concern those at the top of the private sector are earning more

:02:21.:02:28.

than they are worth. These are tough times for everybody, whether

:02:28.:02:33.

you are in the private or public sector, whether you are a taxi

:02:33.:02:37.

driver or the civil servant, and we need to make sure people in the

:02:37.:02:41.

public sector don't feel they are doing the heavy lifting. The public

:02:41.:02:47.

sector workers who went on strike do feel the heavy lifting is

:02:47.:02:51.

largely theirs. But Lord Hutton, the former Labour minister who

:02:51.:02:55.

wrote this Government's report on pensions reform, has warned change

:02:55.:02:58.

is necessary, or else he says we could be heading for the rocks as

:02:58.:03:03.

the economy has grown far less than we expected. The ground underneath

:03:04.:03:06.

the system that has changed radically and in the wrong

:03:06.:03:13.

direction, so we can't be sure the cost will fall over time. He called

:03:13.:03:16.

the Government's position a credible offer. For ministers, that

:03:16.:03:21.

was welcome. He is right that is the right thing to do, but his

:03:21.:03:27.

warning, given the nature of the economy about us and the Western

:03:27.:03:31.

world, made in the future mean this will not be enough so in truth this

:03:31.:03:35.

is a generous package for public sector workers. In the new year,

:03:35.:03:39.

the government will consider what action it could take on high

:03:39.:03:44.

executive pay, the question is whether giving more people a share

:03:44.:03:52.

of the pain will create the conditions for more long-term game.

:03:52.:03:55.

-- gain. Private health firms could be given access to NHS patient

:03:55.:03:58.

records and other NHS data, under plans being considered by the

:03:58.:04:00.

Government. In a speech tomorrow, the Prime Minister will say that

:04:00.:04:03.

giving researchers access to such information, which would be

:04:03.:04:05.

anonymous, would encourage more medical research. Campaigners fear

:04:05.:04:07.

such a move could undermine patient confidentiality but the Government

:04:07.:04:10.

says all necessary safeguards would be put in place to protect personal

:04:10.:04:13.

details. Voting has begun in Russia's

:04:13.:04:15.

parliamentary elections. The ruling United Russia party of the Prime

:04:15.:04:18.

Minister, Vladimir Putin, is expected to hold on to power. Even

:04:18.:04:20.

before the polls opened, independent election monitors were

:04:20.:04:23.

highlighting thousands of alleged violations of electoral law. Mr

:04:23.:04:29.

Putin has accused foreign powers of meddling in the election process.

:04:29.:04:32.

Two giant pandas on loan from China will arrive at Edinburgh Zoo this

:04:32.:04:36.

afternoon. They're the first to stay in a British zoo for 17 years.

:04:37.:04:39.

Tian Tian and Yang Guang are expected to arrive within the hour

:04:39.:04:49.
:04:49.:04:50.

on a specially-chartered flight. Laura Bicker is at the zoo for us.

:04:50.:04:56.

A long journey and quite an expensive process, Laura? It is a

:04:56.:05:01.

very expensive process. The zoo will spend around �600,000 a year

:05:01.:05:07.

for these pandas and it will be �70,000 also in Bamber 0. It is no

:05:07.:05:13.

ordinary day here, everybody is very excited. These pandas were

:05:13.:05:17.

loaded on to the specially chartered aeroplane. As you can see

:05:17.:05:24.

from these pictures. That is expected to arrive at Edinburgh

:05:24.:05:28.

airport within the next hour, it will then get a police escort for

:05:28.:05:34.

these pandas and they will arrive by motorcade outside here to these

:05:34.:05:37.

gates at Edinburgh's it. The air will then be filled with the sound

:05:37.:05:44.

of bagpipes. They will be piping them into the enclosures. Hundreds

:05:44.:05:48.

of people are expected to line the streets to try to glimpse these

:05:48.:05:52.

pandas. There is a lot of hope riding on these pandas, not that

:05:52.:05:58.

they will just produced cubs, but also that they will help trading

:05:58.:06:02.

ties with China. Thank you. The former Brazil

:06:02.:06:06.

captain Socrates has died in hospital at the age of 57. Socrates,

:06:06.:06:09.

who was widely regarded as one of the greatest ever midfielders,

:06:09.:06:12.

played in two World Cups, winning 60 caps for his country between

:06:12.:06:15.

1979 and 1986. He graduated as a doctor of medicine during his

:06:15.:06:23.

playing career. That's it for now. There's more news on BBC One at six

:06:23.:06:27.

o'clock. Rarely has a week felt more in need

:06:27.:06:30.

of the sound of Eric Idle and the Monty Python team belting out

:06:30.:06:33.

"always look on the bright side of life" because there are not a whole

:06:34.:06:37.

lot of reasons to be cheerful over the state of the UK economy, over

:06:37.:06:47.

what is happening in Europe. Can you remember a time like this? It

:06:47.:06:53.

genuinely feels a bit scary now. does feel scary now. The time it

:06:53.:06:58.

reminds me and a lot of people of is the 1980s. There was a feeling

:06:58.:07:02.

everything was being curtailed and we were getting a much more

:07:02.:07:07.

bitterly divided politics. All it took for me was seeing Billy Bragg

:07:07.:07:13.

re-emerging the other night on the BBC! It is even scarier because the

:07:13.:07:18.

eurozone, are back up system on the Continent, is in even more dire

:07:18.:07:23.

trouble than the British finances. That combination of having these

:07:23.:07:27.

things playing against each other is scary for politicians and

:07:27.:07:35.

everyone else. And the headline about a number of dates to save the

:07:35.:07:42.

euro and whatever, actually we think this time it might be true.

:07:42.:07:49.

My own feeling is that saving the euro might not be the right thing.

:07:49.:07:53.

There are very divergent economies in a very one-size-fits-all

:07:53.:07:57.

interest rate. I am not sure if Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy

:07:57.:08:06.

have a plan that will succeed, but more significantly I don't want to

:08:06.:08:09.

because the country should be free from having to live under one

:08:09.:08:15.

interest rate. A my gut would be with Tim on that one, I do think

:08:15.:08:20.

the price of breaking it up now... It was welded together so firmly

:08:20.:08:25.

and I think the price of breaking it up would be perhaps too high and

:08:25.:08:28.

we would therefore have to tolerate this fiscal union between France

:08:28.:08:33.

and Germany. That has huge implications for how David Cameron

:08:33.:08:40.

pursues his economy. How does this play out in terms of UK internal

:08:40.:08:44.

Conservative Party politics? Hearing Iain Duncan-Smith earlier

:08:45.:08:48.

about what it would require for there to be a referendum if the

:08:48.:08:54.

whole treaty negotiations get reopened. Nick Clegg earlier said

:08:54.:08:56.

there would not need to be a referendum if British sovereignty

:08:56.:09:00.

was not affected, then you have very different body language from

:09:00.:09:04.

Iain Duncan Smith suggesting a referendum would be needed if in

:09:04.:09:10.

some way Britain was affected. This is the problem. The referendum lock

:09:10.:09:15.

that has been passed, that is only triggered if British sovereignty is

:09:15.:09:19.

somehow eroded but most Euro- sceptics believe if you have fiscal

:09:19.:09:25.

union on the Continent, although we may not lose powers, this emergence

:09:25.:09:30.

of like an aircraft carrier, which we will be towed along by, it

:09:30.:09:33.

affects us so much that if we don't have referendum it won't work at

:09:33.:09:38.

all. Thank you for the moment. Christmas is coming, presents are

:09:38.:09:42.

being wrapped, and turkeys all over the country are getting more than a

:09:42.:09:45.

little bit nervous. According to one survey this week, we Brits are

:09:45.:09:48.

a satisfied bunch. Ask us if we're happy and apparently we give you a

:09:48.:09:52.

score of seven and a half out of 10. But that survey obviously didn't

:09:52.:09:55.

poll many economists! And this week we've had little in the way of

:09:55.:10:03.

tidings of comfort and joy. Behind every door of the advent calendar

:10:03.:10:08.

this week, it was bleak midwinter. On Monday the OECD warned that

:10:08.:10:12.

Britain would fall back into a recession. We live in very

:10:12.:10:18.

difficult times. I believe we can define this political moment. The

:10:18.:10:23.

situation in the euro area it is deteriorating. On Tuesday, the

:10:23.:10:27.

Chancellor admitted austerity would have to last for years, much longer

:10:27.:10:32.

than he had hoped. Our debt challenge is even greater than we

:10:32.:10:37.

thought because the boom was even bigger, the bust even deeper, and

:10:37.:10:43.

the effects were last even longer. Wednesday saw public sector workers

:10:43.:10:48.

out on strike. Not everyone was impressed. It looks like something

:10:48.:10:54.

of a damp squib. Come Thursday, it was the Bank of England's turn.

:10:54.:11:00.

Faced with a crisis of the euro area system, we are seeing the cost

:11:00.:11:05.

of financial instability first hand. So deck the halls with those of

:11:05.:11:10.

holly, and keep cheerful, but the message this Christmas is that

:11:10.:11:20.

economic midwinter is here to stay, and stay for quite some time.

:11:20.:11:25.

Very cheery and festive. The Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne is here,

:11:25.:11:29.

just before he sets off for a major round of climate change talks in

:11:29.:11:31.

South Africa. For the past two years, the coalition has been

:11:31.:11:34.

working on the premise you will do everything you can to clear the

:11:34.:11:39.

structural deficit by 2015, then go into election and set out your own

:11:39.:11:43.

agendas. When did you realise that wouldn't happen? The Autumn

:11:43.:11:47.

Statement had to take on board the things that have been happening in

:11:47.:11:53.

the global economy. We have seen an increase in gas prices, and we have

:11:53.:11:57.

had the happenings in the eurozone so the Treasury is projecting

:11:57.:12:01.

things on even beyond general elections. Unfortunately the

:12:01.:12:06.

economy and the numbers don't stop at the time the general election.

:12:06.:12:11.

Do you believed the figures? I used to be an economic forecaster and we

:12:11.:12:16.

are not very good at doing forecast one year ahead, let alone five

:12:16.:12:20.

years ahead, so I would be confident the world will not look

:12:20.:12:27.

like the Treasury thinks it will in 2015,/16. The reality is there are

:12:27.:12:33.

bound to be changes and a change in directions, as there always are,

:12:33.:12:36.

and we have to take into account what is happening. But the Treasury

:12:36.:12:41.

is right to make the best possible guest at the time and the markets

:12:41.:12:45.

expect that. They say with forecasting it is like a grenade,

:12:45.:12:49.

you throw it as far away as possible so you don't get hit by

:12:49.:12:54.

the shrapnel. Or you make a forecast so far away that no one

:12:54.:12:59.

will remember it. Do you think that is what they have done? Do you

:12:59.:13:03.

share the analysis this is best guess? No, I think we have a

:13:04.:13:07.

reasonable stab, but not a perfect one given what has happened over

:13:07.:13:12.

the last year, at what can happen in the near term, but when you look

:13:12.:13:17.

at five years away, you are basically trying to at least make

:13:17.:13:21.

sure your policies are consistent, that they add up, and there are

:13:21.:13:25.

going to be so many things that can change over that time that frankly

:13:25.:13:30.

it doesn't make sense having a row about something. Let me consider

:13:30.:13:35.

the implications for your party. How do you go into an election in

:13:35.:13:39.

2015 differentiating yourselves from the Conservatives when you

:13:39.:13:44.

have supported the same policies. OK, you can say it was a national

:13:44.:13:49.

emergency, but you will have the same projections going forward.

:13:49.:13:53.

Obviously there is a difference between projections in terms of the

:13:53.:13:57.

overall aggregate on borrowing and so forth, and the values of what

:13:57.:14:01.

you do in terms of meeting particular objectives which will be

:14:01.:14:06.

the balance between tax and spend, how you intend to spend particular

:14:06.:14:11.

pot of money, and that seems to leave an enormous field open for

:14:11.:14:16.

political disagreement, as we have seen. Danny Alexander has set you

:14:16.:14:22.

on the same course until 2017. the number of overall aggregate,

:14:22.:14:26.

first of all there is the question of whether they are likely to be in

:14:26.:14:30.

the ballpark by the time we get there, but also of there is the key

:14:30.:14:34.

issue which is the overall aggregate still leave an enormous

:14:34.:14:38.

field of different over how you intend to make the splits between

:14:38.:14:43.

tax and spend, how you intend to do that within spending, in particular

:14:43.:14:47.

projects, and the values of the parties will be very clearly on

:14:47.:14:51.

display in the run-up to the election. We will be fighting as an

:14:51.:14:55.

independent party with an independent programme and a very

:14:55.:14:59.

clear manifesto. What do you mean when you said George Osborne was a

:14:59.:15:08.

Conservative Chancellor delivering Exactly that. He has constituencies

:15:08.:15:12.

within the Conservative Party, Tim Montgomery will be one of them,

:15:12.:15:16.

that he wants to keep on board. he care about keeping you on board?

:15:16.:15:21.

He doesn't have to keep me on board, I have my own constituency is with

:15:21.:15:29.

the Liberal Democrats. The key point, surely, is that you, as a

:15:29.:15:32.

journalist, should judge people by what they do and not by what they

:15:32.:15:36.

say. If you look at the actions the Government has taken... So you did

:15:37.:15:43.

not like the speech? I think that the reality is that the

:15:43.:15:47.

announcement in the speech that there would be another �200 million

:15:47.:15:50.

to make a success of our pioneering Green Deal programme was very

:15:50.:15:55.

sensible. Do I think that we can solve financial debt problems today

:15:55.:15:57.

at the cost of creating environmental debt problems

:15:57.:16:03.

tomorrow, no, I do not. Did he consult with you before that

:16:03.:16:09.

passage in the speech? Government should never discuss

:16:09.:16:14.

what goes on within government. would always tell us if he had

:16:14.:16:19.

consulted you! You would have been absolutely on the same page...

:16:19.:16:22.

I come back to is the key point, if you look at what the Government is

:16:22.:16:26.

doing, the key issues that have been brought forward on renewable

:16:26.:16:30.

subsidies so that they can be clear support their, electricity market

:16:30.:16:36.

reform, a big thrusts towards low- carbon electricity. We have the

:16:36.:16:42.

support for clean heat. �800 million from the Treasury. An extra

:16:42.:16:46.

�200 million in the Autumn Statement. So there are these

:16:46.:16:50.

massive road-building programmes, which has led people to say that it

:16:50.:16:53.

is the least green friendly government they have seen. You are

:16:53.:16:56.

gliding over substantial achievements, including achievement

:16:56.:17:01.

that the Government has set out that our world firsts, a real

:17:01.:17:05.

pioneering programmes on energy- saving and on clean heat. They have

:17:05.:17:10.

been done nowhere else in the world. George has absolutely signed up and

:17:10.:17:13.

been very supportive on all of those. Judge people on what they do,

:17:13.:17:18.

not what they say. So you didn't like the words, but you like the

:17:18.:17:22.

actions. Good summary? That is not what I said, that is what you are

:17:22.:17:30.

saying. Or wind turbines, is it right we are going to go from 3000,

:17:30.:17:37.

up to 32,000? The Sunday Times's maths is out of date. We have set

:17:37.:17:42.

out what, on one scenario, would be a substantial increase. As it

:17:42.:17:47.

happens, we will continue to use very small turbines. The latest are

:17:47.:17:52.

seven megawatts, more than three times the size. The reality is that

:17:52.:17:57.

the actual number... Where would they go? A large number would go

:17:57.:18:01.

out to sea. Dogger Bank is a shallow area of the North Sea, the

:18:01.:18:05.

same size as Wales. If we can get serious amounts of electricity

:18:05.:18:11.

based in that area, we could enormously increase our ability to

:18:11.:18:17.

withstand the shocks we have had. Let me go on to cars... And let me

:18:17.:18:24.

finish this. Will we have electric cars by 2050? We will have to

:18:24.:18:29.

import nine out of �10 of our energy by 2050. If we don't see

:18:29.:18:39.
:18:39.:18:40.

Wisley generate, from domestic By 2050, every car will be

:18:40.:18:45.

electric? Our vision is that the future of the economy will be an

:18:45.:18:49.

electric future. That is the way we know, from existing technology,

:18:49.:18:52.

that we can have a sustainable future without destroying the

:18:52.:18:56.

planet for our children, our grandchildren. Electric cars are

:18:56.:19:00.

probably the way forward. There are a lot of uncertainties and other

:19:00.:19:05.

possibilities like hydrogen fuel cells. A on Durban, earth do you

:19:05.:19:11.

think that there is anything concrete going to come out of it?

:19:11.:19:15.

Or is it just a lot of talk? All of these international negotiations

:19:15.:19:22.

take time. They always have done, this I think there is a potential

:19:22.:19:26.

big step forward. That we can get the world committed to coming up

:19:26.:19:30.

with a global, overarching treaty by 2015 so that we are all at least

:19:31.:19:34.

heading in the same direction with a clear road map, so that we get

:19:34.:19:39.

global emissions down by 2020. That is what the science is telling us

:19:39.:19:45.

is essential. I have to bring you in, because he brought you into the

:19:45.:19:49.

interview so much earlier wrong. What do you make of that? Chris,

:19:49.:19:54.

unfortunately, from my perspective, is one of the Cabinet's most

:19:54.:19:58.

effective ministers. Despite some of the shift in rhetoric, he is

:19:58.:20:03.

pursuing his green agenda relentlessly. My worry,

:20:03.:20:05.

particularly in the international context of climate change, is that

:20:05.:20:09.

we have had so many promises that these international conferences are

:20:09.:20:12.

going to deliver something. The only people that seem to do

:20:12.:20:19.

anything our countries like our own. That means domestic bill players in

:20:19.:20:22.

Britain are paying higher energy bills and the world's carbon

:20:22.:20:29.

footprint goes higher and higher. Two key points. Energy bills,

:20:29.:20:33.

because of the rise in gas prices, may be going up. But the impact of

:20:33.:20:37.

our policy will be to bring them down. Not in the short term, the

:20:37.:20:41.

contrary. Within three years we will actually been seeing, having

:20:41.:20:45.

dealt with the inheritance of the Labour government, we will be

:20:45.:20:49.

seeing the impact of the Government policy will be to reduce energy

:20:49.:20:58.

costs. According to the forecasts. Well, it is easier to forecast on

:20:58.:21:03.

that than it is the economy. The point about other countries not

:21:03.:21:08.

doing anything, a other countries say the same thing. Why does my

:21:08.:21:13.

country have to do things when nobody else's? We have over 70

:21:13.:21:17.

countries signed up to targets. Look at what the Chinese are doing.

:21:17.:21:22.

A quarter of the population are covered by low-carbon Soames. They

:21:22.:21:29.

have the six biggest renewable energy companies in the world. They

:21:29.:21:36.

have 10 kilometres of high-speed Let's look at the wind farm

:21:36.:21:41.

situation in Britain. You have a story today, and I don't agree with

:21:41.:21:46.

the calculations. If I can just get to the end of half descendants. You

:21:46.:21:50.

have a situation where you have a big expansion in wind farms. You

:21:50.:21:56.

make it sound as if wind and renewables, by extension, it is a

:21:56.:21:59.

guaranteed answer to energy supply, security in terms of dealing with

:21:59.:22:03.

energy sources in the outside world. I don't think it is that simple.

:22:03.:22:07.

There are still major doubts about what wind power and renewables can

:22:07.:22:12.

deliver. You have your argument on it being as effective as it could

:22:12.:22:18.

possibly be. We simply do not know that is the case. You are also

:22:18.:22:25.

I don't accept we are damaging the environment. There are

:22:25.:22:29.

uncertainties about the technology is and the global outlook for oil

:22:29.:22:35.

and gas prices. We need a portfolio of different options, to make sure

:22:35.:22:41.

we are not betting the barn. Wind and renewables are part of it, so

:22:41.:22:50.

his nuclear and clean coal. If we can use wind power, that is what

:22:50.:22:53.

the market will determine. What we mustn't do is to decide now, when

:22:53.:22:58.

there are still some substantial uncertainties about the future of

:22:58.:23:02.

this technology, that we are going to get everything on one thing.

:23:02.:23:06.

Chris Huhne, a final question before we go. A crucial week for

:23:06.:23:11.

the euro. Do you believe that it is going to survive intact, with all

:23:11.:23:15.

17 countries as members? The one key thing to learn about the

:23:15.:23:19.

lessons of the European Union, since it was started in the 1950s,

:23:19.:23:24.

is that it proceeds through crisis. There has never yet been a crisis

:23:24.:23:28.

where it has not come out with a resolution. Has there been a crisis

:23:28.:23:34.

like this one? There has, over the years. They have been at crisis

:23:34.:23:37.

around the exchange rate mechanism, all sorts. The key point is that

:23:37.:23:41.

there has never been a situation yet where the European Union has

:23:41.:23:45.

not emerged with a revolution. -- Resolution. It would be foolhardy

:23:45.:23:51.

to bet against that. The French President and German

:23:51.:23:55.

Chancellor are meeting tomorrow with the euro in crisis. What they

:23:55.:23:59.

will be discussing may decide whether the currency and even the

:23:59.:24:03.

whole European project lives or dies, even with Chris Huhne's

:24:03.:24:07.

cautionary words. They are expected to agree to a full fiscal union

:24:07.:24:10.

with central oversight of how each and every eurozone country raises

:24:10.:24:14.

its taxes and spends its national budget. Financial penalties would

:24:14.:24:18.

be put in place for any nation that breaks the rules. They hope that

:24:18.:24:28.
:24:28.:24:28.

would be enough to calm the current storm in the market. Our current is

:24:28.:24:32.

the leader of a conservative group of MPs. Do you think that full

:24:32.:24:37.

fiscal union is the way to go? could well be. What we should never

:24:37.:24:43.

forget is that treaty change on this level could take several years.

:24:43.:24:49.

It has to be ratified in 27 member- state parliaments. Member countries

:24:49.:24:53.

will probably have a referendum on it. It will not solve the problem

:24:53.:24:57.

in the immediate future, it is a long way down the tracks. Angela

:24:57.:25:01.

Merkel clearly wants a treaty change. Do you support that? I am

:25:01.:25:05.

not sure it is completely necessary. As I said, it is not going to solve

:25:05.:25:09.

the problems in the short term. She clearly does want to pursue it.

:25:09.:25:13.

What Germany wants, Germany normally gets in the EU. It looks

:25:13.:25:18.

like the summit will be dominated with apocalyptic warnings of all

:25:18.:25:22.

the things that will happen if they don't reach an agreement. She will

:25:22.:25:26.

probably get the treaty change that she wants. But it is a long,

:25:26.:25:29.

complicated road before it is finally agreed. If you go down the

:25:29.:25:33.

option of a treaty change, does there have to be a UK referendum on

:25:33.:25:39.

it? Iain Duncan-Smith says anything that is a sizable change, you have

:25:39.:25:43.

to. Nick Clegg says it is not like that, it is only if we are giving

:25:43.:25:47.

substantial new powers. How do you read it? We will have to wait and

:25:47.:25:50.

see what it says. We are dealing with hypothetical tier. We don't

:25:50.:25:56.

even know what the proposals are yet. We had a pretty clear idea.

:25:56.:26:01.

will have to see the details, how much it affects the UK, what David

:26:01.:26:05.

Cameron manages to achieve in terms of negotiations. I hope he will

:26:05.:26:09.

manage to build in a number of safeguards for the EU. It has a

:26:09.:26:13.

number of potential problems for the UK. We want to see a

:26:13.:26:15.

repatriation of powers in areas that can help the economy grow. It

:26:15.:26:20.

is a huge hypothetical question. In principle, I have no problem with

:26:20.:26:24.

the referendum. I think we have had far too few referendums. If there

:26:24.:26:28.

had been more when the euro was established, not least in Germany

:26:28.:26:33.

itself, we might not have the same problems we do now. How do you see

:26:33.:26:37.

fiscal union affecting the UK? main problem for the UK is the

:26:37.:26:41.

corpsing aspect of it. If the countries of the euro-zone draw

:26:41.:26:46.

together, if they do vote as a block in the European Union, that

:26:46.:26:53.

is a qualified majority. They could out to vote the UK. We are already

:26:53.:26:57.

seeing a number of quite blatant attacks on the City of London, on

:26:57.:27:00.

financial services. However unpopular they might be in the UK,

:27:00.:27:05.

they are a critical part of the UK economy. There are lots of people

:27:05.:27:08.

with an agenda to transfer that business to Paris and Frankfurt. We

:27:08.:27:12.

have to protect our position in that, as well as in areas that are

:27:12.:27:17.

key for our growth. How do you do that when you are marginalised?

:27:17.:27:21.

You're not, of course. David Cameron has a detail. That is the

:27:21.:27:25.

thing about negotiations. -- AVG Cho Seung-Hui. All national

:27:25.:27:31.

parliaments have to approve. The democratic problems that are going

:27:31.:27:35.

to be caused by this, and what the Germans are talking about doing is

:27:35.:27:39.

imposing treaty change that will say that every tax decision, every

:27:39.:27:42.

spending decision, every fiscal policy is not set in the individual

:27:42.:27:47.

country but by a committee in Brussels, presumably dictated to by

:27:47.:27:57.
:27:57.:27:57.

Germany. It has tremendous democratic implications. What about

:27:57.:28:00.

elections in those countries? It will not be long before an

:28:00.:28:05.

extremist party puts forward an alternative vision, and then you

:28:05.:28:12.

will see proper break-up. Thank you so much for be with us. I am joined

:28:12.:28:14.

by the shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander. Thank you for

:28:15.:28:19.

being with us. If you have the 17 countries that pursue full fiscal

:28:19.:28:25.

union, what are the national governments of that country for?

:28:25.:28:29.

Let's see what is proposed that the European summit. We have a very

:28:29.:28:33.

strong national interest in making sure that the single market, the 27

:28:33.:28:38.

members of the European countries in the single market, continue to

:28:38.:28:44.

be the body that makes decisions about British exports and have a

:28:44.:28:50.

profound effect on British jobs. As we have seen from the comments of

:28:50.:28:52.

Iain Duncan-Smith and Nick Clegg, we have a coalition that is not

:28:52.:28:56.

talking to each other, never mind talking to European partners, at a

:28:56.:29:00.

critical point for the economy and the future of Europe. But the point

:29:00.:29:05.

is, let's decide what it looks like before we work out if we need a

:29:05.:29:09.

referendum? I think people will struggle to reconcile the language

:29:09.:29:13.

we have heard from Iain Duncan- Smith and Nick Clegg. That is not a

:29:13.:29:17.

source of joy, it is a source of concern to me. One of the reasons

:29:17.:29:21.

Britain is in the position it is in at the moment is because David

:29:21.:29:25.

Cameron is obliged to spend more time negotiating with backbenchers

:29:25.:29:28.

than European partners. I welcome the fact he was in Paris. I welcome

:29:28.:29:32.

the fact that, even at this late hour, there are discussions with

:29:32.:29:37.

European partners. The stakes are extremely high for Britain's it

:29:37.:29:42.

national interests. There have been crisis in the European Union before,

:29:42.:29:47.

if you look at history, they tend to get sorted. Chris Huhne seemed

:29:47.:29:55.

pretty sanguine. He was saying that the European Community grows

:29:55.:29:59.

through crisis. But even the greatest advocates of the European

:29:59.:30:03.

Union's nerve would be tested by what we are witnessing. We have a

:30:03.:30:09.

situation where the European economy is minutes from midnight.

:30:09.:30:14.

We need a European summit that, for once, actually get ahead of the

:30:14.:30:17.

markets rather than being behind the markets. That is why I think

:30:18.:30:22.

change is inevitable in the eurozone. It is overdue. I hope we

:30:22.:30:25.

see a comprehensive enough package emerging from European leaders that

:30:25.:30:29.

it will command confidence, rather than lose confidence. That involves

:30:29.:30:33.

the political support being given to the European Central Bank, that

:30:33.:30:43.
:30:43.:30:44.

But there is a fundamental problem that Angela Merkel and Nicolas

:30:44.:30:49.

Sarkozy don't see it in the same way. My sense is they are moving

:30:49.:30:53.

closer together. I think there will be a joint paper produced by the

:30:54.:30:57.

French and the Germans anticipating the conference that takes place at

:30:57.:31:03.

the end of the next week, and that will look at how you make sure

:31:03.:31:07.

there is broader oversight, but that carries significant

:31:07.:31:10.

implications in terms of the broader functioning of the European

:31:10.:31:16.

Union. We do support a referendum if there was a treaty change?

:31:16.:31:20.

law is there will be a referendum if there is significant change in

:31:20.:31:23.

powers for Britain giving up powers, but let's see what emerges next

:31:23.:31:28.

week. I can see how fiscal union might solve the problems going

:31:28.:31:32.

forward for the eurozone, but that doesn't deal with the immediate

:31:32.:31:36.

problem that we have a Continent burdened by debt and countries on

:31:36.:31:41.

the periphery like Greece that are uncompetitive within the eurozone

:31:41.:31:45.

and I can't see that changing unless they have the option of

:31:45.:31:49.

devaluation. Is it the Labour Party's position that the eurozone

:31:49.:31:59.

has to stay as one single currency area? Our judgment is it is up for

:31:59.:32:05.

them to make those decisions. Issues of Greece leaving the

:32:05.:32:09.

eurozone have to be resolved by the countries themselves but it is in

:32:09.:32:14.

Britain's interest that it does resolve these problems.

:32:14.:32:17.

Schadenfreude is not a good economic strategy for Britain at

:32:17.:32:26.

the moment. The Labour Party has been broadly EU comic even went

:32:26.:32:30.

through a period of being brought me he knew, and you seem to be

:32:30.:32:33.

suggesting a more sceptical tone without coming out directly and

:32:33.:32:43.
:32:43.:32:45.

saying that. We always thought economics should lead the politics.

:32:45.:32:50.

We should maintain a position that economics leads the politics. More

:32:50.:32:54.

broadly, we need a clear-headed sense of where Britain's national

:32:54.:32:58.

interest is, and I think it is served being part of the European

:32:58.:33:04.

Union. The way we can advance global public goods, whether it is

:33:04.:33:10.

climate change, security, global poverty, Britain's interests are

:33:10.:33:14.

amplified by being part of the European Union, but we also want to

:33:14.:33:18.

be a part of the single market. It is crucial David Cameron can do

:33:18.:33:24.

what he can to secure a global market, because to shrink our home

:33:24.:33:28.

market is just daft. Are you sure you can get away with being in a

:33:28.:33:33.

single market if you're not in the fiscal union? I believe we need to

:33:33.:33:37.

see the endurance of the single market. The break-up of that would

:33:37.:33:47.
:33:47.:33:48.

be as disastrous for Britain as would a break-up of Europe. We have

:33:48.:33:53.

heard about the caucus in aspect, how can you stop that? So unthought

:33:53.:33:58.

is being given to an emergency brake procedures before next

:33:58.:34:02.

weekend so you could have issues relating to financial services that

:34:02.:34:04.

largely affect the City more than any other part of the European

:34:04.:34:09.

economy, if they are significant enough being graduated up to a

:34:09.:34:12.

government decision, so there are various ways you can work to

:34:12.:34:15.

protect Britain's national interest but that requires a prime minister

:34:15.:34:21.

who knows what his premises are. My genuine fear it is that if you

:34:21.:34:25.

maintain the position that you are overriding national interest as the

:34:25.:34:29.

repatriation of powers, not only would you likely be unsuccessful

:34:29.:34:33.

but you would also miss the opportunity to get the guarantees

:34:33.:34:38.

the British economy needs. Thank you.

:34:38.:34:41.

Later in the programme, the political impact of pandas - all

:34:41.:34:49.

will be explained, but first the Politics Show near you.

:34:49.:34:53.

Hello and welcome to the London part of the Politics Show, where

:34:53.:34:57.

coming up later - Christmas comes but once a year but for some their

:34:57.:35:02.

debts go on and on. We look at the rise of short-term credit lenders

:35:02.:35:07.

and loan sharks. It has been quite a week for the economy. The Autumn

:35:07.:35:11.

Statement, thousands protesting on the streets of the capital, and

:35:11.:35:15.

dire warnings about rapidly lowering living standards. There

:35:16.:35:19.

were promises about future transport improvements and a

:35:19.:35:24.

handout to soften the mayor's planned fare rises, but where else

:35:24.:35:29.

was there to here? Perhaps Greg hands, Conservative MP for Chelsea

:35:29.:35:37.

and Fulham can provide it. You had seen the statement, presumably,

:35:37.:35:42.

before it was delivered? Not much before. Did you expected to be

:35:42.:35:46.

quite so gloomy? Actually, I think it is quite good news for London,

:35:46.:35:51.

in terms of some of the extra spending and in terms of the good

:35:51.:35:55.

provision for London pensioners, for those having to pay petrol tax,

:35:55.:35:59.

and also keeping interest rates down, doing everything the

:35:59.:36:02.

government can to make sure businesses can borrow at a

:36:03.:36:07.

reasonable rate and that mortgage rates are kept down. Do you think

:36:07.:36:12.

that is how Londoners feel? The Autumn Statement? We will have to

:36:12.:36:18.

see. The overall package has turned out to be good for London. It is a

:36:19.:36:23.

difficult set of circumstances at the moment with the economy, which

:36:23.:36:29.

obviously the Office for budget responsibility forecast showed the

:36:29.:36:34.

economy slowing for Europe and the rest of the world, but within that

:36:34.:36:39.

context London has done very well. How do you think Londoners will

:36:39.:36:44.

feel about household income going down almost to record levels? The

:36:44.:36:53.

last decade we have been 2016 hearing about? Clearly these are

:36:53.:36:58.

difficult times and we haven't tried to avoid that question. Most

:36:58.:37:02.

Londoners will realise this is a follow-on effect from the recession,

:37:02.:37:09.

the deepest recession this country had been the year's 2008/2009, and

:37:09.:37:13.

when we became the government last year we inherited the largest

:37:13.:37:18.

budget deficit in the G20. Most Londoners will recognise the

:37:18.:37:21.

economic inheritance that Labour passed on makes our job very

:37:21.:37:25.

difficult. They might think that, they also know you felt you could

:37:25.:37:30.

get a lot of the pain out of the way in four years, but now we know

:37:30.:37:36.

it will be much longer. And a 1% pay rise Cap for public sector

:37:36.:37:41.

workers in a couple of years' time, projections of tens of thousands

:37:41.:37:47.

more public sector workers out of work, really? We tried to make sure

:37:47.:37:52.

some of the savings are shared out equally, and that everybody shares

:37:52.:37:57.

some of the paint and some of the game. Do you think we have shared

:37:57.:38:05.

it? Yes, we have the new bank levy raising 2.5 million from the banks,

:38:05.:38:09.

there is the 50p tax rate, and others measures to make sure people

:38:09.:38:15.

right across the income curve will be sharing it out. Are they paying

:38:15.:38:20.

as much as, for instance, those children who will not get the rise

:38:20.:38:25.

in the child tax credit? The child tax credit is still rising, it just

:38:25.:38:34.

won't be rising as fast or by as much as we had projected last year.

:38:34.:38:39.

It will be in line with inflation, which will still be a real benefit

:38:39.:38:43.

for Londoners in difficult circumstances. What is the idea

:38:43.:38:48.

behind, and how convinced are you, that this can work and generate

:38:48.:38:53.

growth in the economy? These ideas of infrastructure projects?

:38:53.:38:56.

Infrastructure is very important for London to make sure it keeps

:38:56.:39:01.

its competitiveness as a world city, that we keep London moving, that we

:39:02.:39:06.

make sure London has got the right transport in place, and schools

:39:06.:39:10.

will also be very important. will look at that in some detail

:39:10.:39:16.

now, about that Investment. Was it as presented a shot in the arm for

:39:16.:39:20.

London? Investing, building, creating jobs? The main focus was

:39:20.:39:25.

on the river, or have to get across it. In the 20 miles between

:39:25.:39:30.

Kingston Bridge and the City, there are 19 ways to drive across the

:39:30.:39:35.

Thames, but then it all comes to a halt. Unfortunately for people in

:39:35.:39:40.

East London, they are not so lucky. Between Tower Bridge and the

:39:40.:39:45.

Dartmouth tunnel, there are no bridges whatsoever over a 10 mile

:39:45.:39:50.

stretch of river. The links their art are slightly random. The best

:39:50.:39:56.

bet by car are these tunnels, both notorious for delays. Two ft Dolls

:39:56.:40:00.

at Greenwich and Woolwich are both being refurbished, and the

:40:00.:40:05.

Greenwich ferry runs once every 10 minutes. Next year, east London as

:40:05.:40:09.

slightly eccentric river crossings will be joined by another. The

:40:09.:40:17.

mayor of London's cable-car across the Thames put on show for the

:40:17.:40:22.

first time this week. Transport for London reckon they will take about

:40:22.:40:27.

500 passengers a day on these things. They are pretty cool on the

:40:27.:40:30.

inside and you get a great view crossing the Thames but are they

:40:31.:40:34.

any use for a business that need to transport a large amount of

:40:34.:40:39.

freight? The Chancellor's Autumn Statement this week appears like it

:40:39.:40:44.

could be good news if that is what you want. We will work with the

:40:44.:40:48.

mare on options for other new river crossings... He made reference to

:40:48.:40:53.

two potential Crossens, one in the east of the City and another just

:40:53.:41:01.

outside it, possibly at Dartford, but both projects have been opposed.

:41:01.:41:06.

According to Labour, it is hardly an announcement at all. There is

:41:06.:41:10.

very little in this statement for London, and I think this is a

:41:10.:41:13.

window-dressing announcement. He is trying to make it look like There

:41:13.:41:18.

is more for London but there is nothing. This was meant to be the

:41:18.:41:22.

Thames Gateway Bridge. Ken Livingstone's solution to the

:41:22.:41:26.

problem, but the six-lane road bridge would have been noisy and

:41:26.:41:31.

polluting, and was unpopular with some locally. The plan was scrapped,

:41:31.:41:37.

although he has now committed to another crossing at the same point.

:41:37.:41:43.

But when the mayor scrapped this bridge, old with it went the

:41:43.:41:48.

funding. The project could have been paid for. The difficulty is

:41:48.:41:50.

now but the mayor and the Government are committed to

:41:50.:41:55.

building a new crossing, there is very little detail on where the

:41:55.:42:01.

cash for that will come from. understand their issues with

:42:01.:42:04.

private finance initiative, that is how it would have been financed,

:42:04.:42:08.

and if you look at other projects like the DLR, they are not

:42:09.:42:12.

delivering what they should have done and they are costing the

:42:12.:42:16.

taxpayer more. It was right to look at the finance, but to scrap some

:42:16.:42:21.

of these major projects was a huge mistake. Another Road Bridge in

:42:21.:42:24.

East London have some sort has been in the pipeline for about 50 years

:42:24.:42:28.

but some will question whether this announcement will move us any

:42:28.:42:34.

closer to building one. Joining us now, the deputy mayor

:42:34.:42:43.

for Transport. Some felt it was fairly flimsy, these transport

:42:43.:42:53.
:42:53.:42:55.

improvements, apart from the first themselves which are quite fat. --

:42:55.:42:59.

the trouble first themselves. Anybody who lives in Newham or

:42:59.:43:03.

Bexley knows exactly what you are talking about, that the absence of

:43:03.:43:10.

a river crossing is cataclysmic for regeneration. Transport is almost

:43:10.:43:14.

the secondary objective. We could have had the bridge completed by 20

:43:14.:43:21.

did team if we had gone for that in 2008. When you look at the road,

:43:21.:43:24.

where it would have been, you understand why thousands of locals

:43:24.:43:30.

would have died in a ditch, opposed to that. Did you back the decision

:43:30.:43:35.

when you were there? That was ages ago, nothing to do with me.

:43:35.:43:40.

probably thought it was a good idea, back when. I didn't get involved.

:43:40.:43:45.

How much further forward are we? There is no money on the table, but

:43:45.:43:51.

the Chancellor said he would work with you. The key thing for these

:43:51.:43:56.

projects is political will. You can spend all the time in the world

:43:56.:44:00.

consulting on it, developing finance packages. If you look at

:44:00.:44:04.

the Northern Line extension that has been proposed, that is one of

:44:04.:44:08.

the big regeneration opportunities in London, but unless people

:44:08.:44:13.

actually want to build it, we can spend a lot of time coming up with

:44:13.:44:19.

finance packages... I will come on to that. These are the 48 words

:44:19.:44:22.

from the Chancellor - right here in London, we will work with the mayor

:44:22.:44:28.

for options on all the new river crossings, for example on

:44:28.:44:32.

Silvertown, and we will support the extension of the Northern Line to

:44:32.:44:36.

Battersea in partnership with the private sector. This could bring

:44:36.:44:40.

25,000 new jobs to the area. The Chancellor was there on Monday with

:44:40.:44:45.

the mayor, saying the developers would pay three-quarters of a

:44:45.:44:50.

billion pounds of the cost for these two new tube stations on the

:44:50.:44:54.

Northern Line. Two days later, the developers heading for

:44:54.:44:59.

administration. In terms of the overall development, this is

:44:59.:45:04.

fantastic news. What about that though? Doesn't it show the

:45:04.:45:07.

difficulty immediately? The Chancellor says this will be built

:45:08.:45:11.

by the private sector developer, Owen lots of money, looks like

:45:11.:45:18.

have to see on that, but the important thing is this is a

:45:18.:45:23.

fantastic opportunity. You mentioned twenty-five 1000 jobs,

:45:23.:45:28.

also 16,000 new homes that would be built, making sure the central

:45:28.:45:31.

government support working with Boris Johnson, making sure the

:45:31.:45:36.

central government does what it can. The aspiration sounds fantastic.

:45:36.:45:42.

How could the Chancellor go to the site like this for a photo

:45:42.:45:45.

opportunity and claim it as the kind of thing the government is

:45:45.:45:50.

doing? When there is no central government money going into it.

:45:50.:45:54.

There is a lot of central government money going into the

:45:54.:46:03.

Into that project. Specifically, there is no central government

:46:03.:46:07.

money. It is often showing the political will, showing that the

:46:07.:46:12.

Government will support this, is supporting this... How important is

:46:12.:46:17.

that to you? Political will. A Chancellor there with a hard hat,

:46:17.:46:22.

next to Boris Johnson in a hard hat. Would you like the money?

:46:22.:46:25.

Battersea development that you talked about is only part of quite

:46:25.:46:31.

a lot of activity in that area. you're not going to tell me that

:46:31.:46:33.

Battersea Power Station is and the single most important part, and

:46:33.:46:39.

they were paid for the most part of it? Do you agree? Yes. But it is

:46:39.:46:42.

quite counter-intuitive. That project, with that particular

:46:42.:46:45.

structure collapsing, it is a good thing to push that forward. You

:46:45.:46:50.

don't want something languishing for years, and there has been a

:46:50.:46:57.

succession of those problems. point is, the significance of that

:46:57.:47:00.

and the Autumn Statement for Londoners, that was that George

:47:00.:47:03.

Osborne could be photographed next to Boris Johnson and they say, we

:47:03.:47:07.

want this to happen sometime? is in place for the Northern Line

:47:07.:47:10.

extension is a detailed package that has been discussed between the

:47:11.:47:15.

boroughs, the mayor and government. What is missing, it is not the case

:47:15.:47:18.

that it is all coming from the developer, it is a complex

:47:18.:47:24.

financing structure. What is missing is that we need a few tools,

:47:24.:47:27.

financing mechanisms, and that is where we are looking for the

:47:27.:47:29.

Government to come forward. could happen anyway, it is nothing

:47:29.:47:33.

to do with a way out of the financial or economic difficulties

:47:33.:47:39.

we have got, is it? We have been waiting for some of those tools for

:47:39.:47:42.

a couple of years. If we can get movement, that will be fantastic.

:47:42.:47:46.

One thing that is undeniable is that they raise more money to

:47:46.:47:51.

soften the blow of what was going to be fare rises. 2% above

:47:51.:47:55.

inflation will now be 1%. What difference will that make? It is

:47:55.:48:00.

quite significant on a certain product in particular. If you look

:48:00.:48:07.

at buses, the fare rises will be slightly below plus one. If you

:48:07.:48:11.

look at the weekly bus pass, that a lot of low-income workers used, we

:48:11.:48:15.

have managed to reduce that significantly. For the first time,

:48:15.:48:21.

you are putting up a bus fare by 10 -- 5p. It has always been 10 before.

:48:21.:48:26.

Why five? We have been trying to spread the benefits across so

:48:26.:48:30.

everybody can benefit. Why haven't you done that before, a five pence

:48:30.:48:34.

increase? There is a long story behind that. A fair has to be

:48:34.:48:40.

offered at a 50% discount, for example, if it is �1.35, you get

:48:40.:48:45.

into all kinds of complicated calculations. But he didn't do that

:48:45.:48:49.

last year, or the year before. Has it got, be honest, has it got

:48:49.:48:54.

anything to do with the fact there is an election next year. We really

:48:54.:48:57.

have tried to spread that funding from government, which has enabled

:48:57.:49:01.

us to protect every penny of investment across the packages. We

:49:01.:49:05.

were conscious that buses are especially used by... Did the head

:49:05.:49:08.

of the Commission for Transport suggest the five pence increase was

:49:08.:49:14.

sensible? This discussion happens between TfL and the mayor. TfL puts

:49:14.:49:18.

forward a proposal for how that money is going to be spread out so

:49:18.:49:22.

that everybody in London can benefit. How welcome do you think

:49:22.:49:26.

it will be? Did the Chancellor do this because of the anger there is

:49:26.:49:29.

about the fare rises on the railways up and down the country?

:49:29.:49:35.

He just felt he had to bring London in line? Or is this actually to

:49:35.:49:38.

help Boris Johnson? You'll know that is where Ken Livingstone, his

:49:38.:49:44.

opponent, will try to make the most hey, about the effect of

:49:44.:49:48.

Conservatives running it. I think it is designed to help Londoners in

:49:48.:49:52.

general. They are facing a loss of fixed cost pressure on things like

:49:52.:49:56.

energy bills, transport bills. We wanted to do something, in a very,

:49:56.:50:03.

very import of the -- important part of the economy, to bring costs

:50:03.:50:08.

down for regular people. My constituency has more commuters in

:50:08.:50:13.

than any other constituency in Britain. It will be hard pressed

:50:13.:50:17.

people that will welcome it. Annual travel cards, they are still going

:50:17.:50:22.

to have to pay �120 per year? will not be going up as much as

:50:22.:50:26.

previously thought. This will keep it down for Tim or three years? You

:50:26.:50:32.

agree? The whole cost of reducing affairs has been covered. But two

:50:32.:50:36.

or three years. What happens then? You are going to put them up even

:50:36.:50:40.

more to compensate for what will be removed in two or three years'

:50:40.:50:46.

time? What we are proposing, with RPI plus 1%, it is a far more

:50:46.:50:49.

realistic proposition than that being put forward by Ken

:50:49.:50:53.

Livingstone. He says he wants to cut fares, but he has and said how

:50:53.:50:56.

he would pay for it. But you recognise that Boris Johnson has

:50:56.:51:00.

said, supported by you, supported by Transport for London, that he

:51:00.:51:04.

would not alter that trajectory affairs, it was needed for

:51:04.:51:09.

investment. The first sign of trouble, you have distorted that by

:51:09.:51:13.

putting some money back in? I think central government recognised this

:51:13.:51:16.

was an important thing to do because of the pressures facing

:51:16.:51:20.

Londoners. Contrast that with somebody that has recklessly gone

:51:20.:51:25.

out to pledge a completely unfunded, huge cut in tube fares, which he

:51:25.:51:28.

knows he will not be able to deliver, I think that shows the

:51:28.:51:32.

contrast between Boris Johnson, a sensible approach to running London,

:51:32.:51:38.

and Ken Livingstone, going back to the past. A final thought, at this

:51:38.:51:44.

time of particular financial trouble, is it right for fare

:51:44.:51:48.

payers to be paying more, well above inflation, or a above-

:51:48.:51:55.

inflation still, for improvements tomorrow, instead of central

:51:55.:52:00.

government paying for it? It it's a difficult message. I take the Tube

:52:00.:52:04.

every day. I understand why people find that difficult. I'm amazed how

:52:04.:52:06.

well people understand and are prepared to accept that everyone

:52:06.:52:11.

knows there is unprecedented amounts of people on the Tube. We

:52:11.:52:14.

have never seen so many people on the buses. They've got no choice,

:52:14.:52:19.

they had to get round. A final thought? There is huge government

:52:19.:52:22.

investment going in. One of the first things George Osborne decided

:52:22.:52:26.

was to put the money in for Crossrail and to put the money in

:52:26.:52:30.

for the Tube improvements at a time when central government inherited a

:52:30.:52:34.

situation where the public finances were in a total mess. We made sure

:52:34.:52:37.

that Crossrail and the Tube improvements were protected and

:52:37.:52:45.

It may be a bleak economic forecast, but short term, up to Christmas, at

:52:45.:52:50.

least, spending is expected to rise. For many people, that might only be

:52:50.:52:53.

possible because without much credit for coming from banks they

:52:53.:52:57.

are turning to other sources of finance.

:52:57.:53:01.

To get extra seasonal cash, it can be very tempting to take up the

:53:01.:53:04.

offers that many high-street loans, credit and pay-day companies offer.

:53:04.:53:08.

Louise took out a short-term loan and struggled with my repayment

:53:08.:53:11.

rates. She eventually paid it off, but then found herself being

:53:11.:53:16.

bombarded with offers from similar companies. Christmas is one of the

:53:16.:53:19.

worst times. If you have children, you on your own, you don't have

:53:19.:53:23.

money coming from other places, you've not got anywhere to turn to.

:53:23.:53:27.

You cannot go to the bank and you have a letter saying, borrow �500

:53:27.:53:31.

instantly. You are going to say, right, that will pay my Christmas

:53:31.:53:37.

for me. You are not sinking -- thinking in the long term. What

:53:37.:53:40.

London MP has been calling for a change in law and more regulations

:53:40.:53:44.

for the short term loan industry. I asked how big a problem it is in

:53:44.:53:49.

the capital. London is always at the sharp end of anything to do

:53:49.:53:52.

with debt and the cost of living. It is expensive to live in the

:53:52.:53:56.

capital city. There are 500,000 people who have put mortgages on

:53:56.:54:01.

credit cards, according to Shelter. They are not borrowing money to buy

:54:02.:54:07.

fancy goods and flash TV's, 40% are to buy basics like food and

:54:07.:54:11.

transport costs. Do you think the Government has been willing to

:54:11.:54:14.

listen or act in any way? really frustrated with the

:54:14.:54:17.

Government. When they were elected, they made a number of commitments.

:54:17.:54:20.

18 months on, they have done nothing about this and problems are

:54:20.:54:24.

getting worse. We know that capping the cost of credit means that less

:54:24.:54:28.

people go to illegal lenders. It is the illegal loan sharks that people

:54:28.:54:33.

are worried about. It also means that credit is more affordable.

:54:33.:54:36.

When we are facing an economic downturn, we need people to have

:54:36.:54:40.

access to credit. The impact these loans can have is all too clear.

:54:40.:54:44.

Whether it is the man that ended up with nine different Pay Day Loans

:54:44.:54:47.

because he was trying to pay one off with another, or the woman who

:54:47.:54:54.

borrowed �100, got chased by the company that she owed the money too,

:54:54.:54:58.

ended up paying back �300, and 48 hours later they rang her back and

:54:58.:55:03.

asked if she wanted another one. A 16-year-old who took out a loan

:55:03.:55:07.

with doorstep lenders, he will never pay that off. His family paid

:55:07.:55:11.

it off because they were so worried about what it would do to him, to

:55:11.:55:21.
:55:21.:55:22.

Troy Deeney is Gavin Hayes, general secretary of Compass. In our

:55:22.:55:26.

Manchester studio, John Laver Day from the Consumer Finance

:55:26.:55:31.

Association. You recognise some of those issues, presumably. What do

:55:31.:55:38.

you want to be done? Firstly, there is no panacea to this problem. As

:55:38.:55:44.

Stella was alluding to, we are calling for a total cap on the cost

:55:44.:55:48.

of credit. That would include not only the interest rates. Often,

:55:48.:55:53.

people get charged various administration fees and so on. Also,

:55:53.:55:57.

we would like to see things like that rolling over of loans stopped.

:55:57.:56:01.

We would also like to see the number of Pay Day Loans people can

:56:01.:56:08.

take out in any 12 month period limited. That is pretty clear.

:56:08.:56:13.

Would that work? Would it work to do what? You have to take the idea

:56:13.:56:20.

of borrowing short-term, small sum loans in context. Pay Day Loans are

:56:21.:56:26.

just one method. You can also use your bank overdraft, or an

:56:26.:56:29.

unauthorised bank overdraft. Or you might go over your limit on your

:56:29.:56:35.

credit card. What I would say to you is, no, it will not work. Cabin

:56:35.:56:39.

the cost of Pay Day Loans will not make loans cheaper. It will reduce

:56:39.:56:44.

choice for consumers. It will actually push them to more

:56:44.:56:48.

expensive alternatives such as unauthorised overdrafts and going

:56:48.:56:51.

over their credit card limit. accept that people seeking short-

:56:52.:56:55.

term loans are often vulnerable and do need more protection? Absolutely

:56:55.:57:01.

not. We leant across age ranges, across income bands. Pretty equally

:57:01.:57:08.

loans to anybody who has got a bank account, a job and disposable

:57:08.:57:13.

income, 94% of our customers come from a household where there is at

:57:13.:57:18.

least one full-time worker. In the country as a whole at the moment,

:57:18.:57:21.

one in five households have no full-time worker are tall. We are

:57:21.:57:25.

not lending to people on the margins. We are lending to normal,

:57:25.:57:29.

ordinary people, that just want to smooth out the peaks and troughs of

:57:29.:57:32.

income and expenditure. They just want to smooth them out, if you

:57:32.:57:36.

make that impossible, they will go to loan sharks. There is absolutely

:57:36.:57:41.

no evidence of that, if you look at how caps on the cost of credit

:57:41.:57:47.

worker. I think actually the point that we are trying to make is that

:57:47.:57:52.

we accept the fact that pay-day lenders have a role to play in

:57:52.:57:56.

terms of helping people in financial emergencies. But I think

:57:56.:57:59.

it has become very clear in recent years that some of these pay-day

:57:59.:58:03.

lenders are charging excessive interest rates. I looked on the

:58:04.:58:09.

interest -- internet the other day, there was one charging over 5000 %

:58:09.:58:13.

APR for short-term loans. Do you recognise that, in the 30 seconds

:58:13.:58:17.

we have left? There is huge competition. A Pay Day Loans will

:58:17.:58:23.

cost you between �10.30 pounds for every �100 that you borrow. One

:58:23.:58:27.

company is offering a totally free deal at the moment. They got

:58:27.:58:35.

lambasted in the media for doing it. You can't really win. I'm afraid,

:58:35.:58:38.

actually, we have come to the end. I wish we had had a bit longer, but

:58:38.:58:48.
:58:48.:58:53.

that is all we had time for. Back Well, there have been poles not

:58:53.:58:56.

just to choose councillors, but police commissioners. There will

:58:56.:59:02.

also be referendums on whether or not to have directly-elected mayors

:59:02.:59:08.

in cities like Liverpool and Leeds. Is it a much needed democratic

:59:08.:59:14.

revolution, or a costly PR exercise that will accomplish the square

:59:14.:59:24.
:59:24.:59:27.

This government is going to break up concentrations of power and

:59:27.:59:34.

handed back to people. It is why we want elected mayors in our great

:59:34.:59:38.

cities. We are drawing up even more radical plans to open a public

:59:38.:59:48.
:59:48.:59:51.

Power to the people - the warcry of revolutionaries up to and including,

:59:51.:59:54.

er, Nick Clegg and David Cameron. Who wouldn't want a greater say

:59:54.:59:57.

over how local services are run, or over policing priorities? Nick and

:59:57.:00:00.

Dave believe they can deliver that through directly elected mayors and

:00:00.:00:05.

police commissioners. But here's a thought - what if the people aren't

:00:05.:00:10.

actually sure if they want the power? We do already have a fair

:00:10.:00:18.

few elected mayors in England. Here's one you may know. It is a

:00:18.:00:21.

system which is directly accountable. It means you know that

:00:21.:00:23.

there's some person who is accountable to you for your

:00:23.:00:26.

services, the state of your roads, the success of your police in

:00:26.:00:33.

fighting crime in that area and you can hold them to account. And if

:00:33.:00:36.

they're not succeeding, then you can chuck them out, it's very

:00:36.:00:39.

important. Actually, it was Labour who introduced directly-elected

:00:39.:00:46.

Mayors, but not every Blairite thinks it's always a good idea.

:00:46.:00:49.

theory, all of this is very good, providing people with the power to

:00:49.:00:51.

cut through red tape and bureaucracy, the all-powerful

:00:51.:00:55.

leader actually going ahead on a white charger. In practice, of

:00:55.:00:57.

course, it means you're centralising rather than diffusing

:00:57.:01:02.

power. We're obsessed with putting power into the hands of charismatic

:01:02.:01:08.

individuals. And if you've got a Boris Johnson or a Ken Livingstone

:01:08.:01:12.

in London and if you've got a Mayor Bloomberg in New York, you can pull

:01:12.:01:15.

it off, but actually most people want somebody at very local level,

:01:15.:01:25.

their councillor, that they can hold to account. In May next year,

:01:25.:01:28.

11 of England's biggest cities will be asked if they'd like an elected

:01:28.:01:31.

mayor. A consultation is underway about exactly what powers they

:01:31.:01:36.

should have. The pay? Not formally set yet, although so far, the

:01:36.:01:41.

average is just under �70,000 a year. But 38 cities have already

:01:41.:01:45.

held referendums in the last few years. 13 have said yes, but 25

:01:45.:01:52.

said no. Outside London, there'll be 41 police commissioners in

:01:52.:01:57.

England and Wales. Salary? Between �65-100 grand. Chief Constables

:01:57.:02:00.

will still run the police, but the Commissioner will control the

:02:00.:02:02.

budget, hold senior officers to account and set local policing

:02:02.:02:08.

priorities. But recent polls have suggested that few members of the

:02:08.:02:15.

public actually realise they'll be here in less than a year's time.

:02:15.:02:18.

And some Coalition MPs think mayors and elected police chiefs are an

:02:18.:02:26.

idea best left alone. I think Nick and Dave both come back from a sort

:02:26.:02:29.

of PR background so something which to me is polishing the shiny bits

:02:29.:02:33.

to them sounds a good idea. The problem is the good idea is to

:02:33.:02:37.

elect somebody and then leave them to get on with it for four years

:02:37.:02:40.

without any checks and balances, so if they go off the rails there's no

:02:40.:02:45.

one to put them back on the rails, unless they get sectioned. Even

:02:45.:02:48.

some of the high priests of people power are a bit sniffy about

:02:48.:02:53.

elected police chiefs. What do they want? Super-mayors with super

:02:53.:02:57.

powers! I don't support individual public services having elected

:02:57.:03:00.

chiefs. What you want is mayors or local authorities which can join up

:03:00.:03:06.

across the public services. If you have individual elected head of the

:03:06.:03:09.

police, why not have an individual elected head of the education

:03:09.:03:12.

service or the NHS and so on? And that really just isn't feasible and

:03:12.:03:16.

wouldn't bring the joining up that you need. So I hope in due course

:03:16.:03:19.

we'll have not just mayors of city councils but of regional, metro

:03:19.:03:21.

mayoral authorities where you could bring together the police,

:03:21.:03:23.

transport, urban regeneration, housing other regional functions,

:03:23.:03:31.

as happens with the Mayor of London. And guess what that mayor thinks

:03:32.:03:34.

that Nick, Dave, and especially George here, have to do if they

:03:34.:03:41.

really believe in power to the people. I think the most important

:03:41.:03:44.

thing that central government needs to do is to recognise that all

:03:44.:03:46.

other big cities in Europe, around the world which have successful

:03:46.:03:49.

mayoralties have a greater ability by the central city authority to

:03:49.:03:52.

spend taxes that are raised locally and for that tax money to be

:03:52.:04:00.

democratically accountable and that's the way, I think... The

:04:00.:04:03.

Treasury's got to relax and the Treasury's got to accept that

:04:03.:04:06.

there's got to be real devolution in this country. Good luck with

:04:06.:04:09.

that Boris - because some critics think that for all the talk of

:04:09.:04:14.

people power, these Westminster types speak with forked tongue.

:04:14.:04:17.

of the absolute paradoxes at the moment is that the Government are

:04:17.:04:20.

preaching localism when every step they take from mayors and police

:04:20.:04:22.

commissioners through determining whether local government should

:04:22.:04:25.

empty the bins one week or two, they're actually determining the

:04:25.:04:32.

major policies from the centre. They've also got the idea that you

:04:32.:04:35.

can centralise the power and devolve the pain and individuals -

:04:35.:04:44.

police commissioner or mayors - take the flak. Gesture politics or

:04:44.:04:48.

a real desire to listen to the people? Ultimately, the success of

:04:49.:04:51.

elected mayors and police commissioners might just depend on

:04:51.:05:01.
:05:01.:05:03.

how much power really flows from this place to your place.

:05:03.:05:07.

The Police Minister and the man who has pioneered this whole idea is

:05:07.:05:11.

Nick Herbert, and he joins me now from his rather lovely looking

:05:11.:05:17.

constituency in Sussex. Thank you for being with us. Who wants these

:05:17.:05:21.

police commissioners? There is plenty of survey evidence that

:05:21.:05:26.

people feel they don't have enough say over policing and would like

:05:26.:05:29.

more of a say and they are attracted to the idea of being

:05:29.:05:35.

given one. We know from London that this has been broadly very popular.

:05:35.:05:37.

The mayor has been given responsibility for policing in

:05:37.:05:42.

London, that is a quarter of all police officers in the country, and

:05:42.:05:47.

that means the mayor can respond to what the public are saying. He has

:05:47.:05:52.

responded on things like knife crime, keeping police officers on

:05:52.:05:56.

the street. If you were to ask Londoners now if they wanted that

:05:56.:06:01.

taken away and given a quango, people invisible, unaccountable to

:06:01.:06:06.

you, deciding those priorities, people would give a pretty dusty

:06:06.:06:10.

response. We want to extend it across the rest of England and

:06:10.:06:14.

Wales, and that will happen with elections in November next year.

:06:14.:06:19.

What if they are elected on a very low Democratic turnout, does that

:06:19.:06:24.

give them legitimacy? Any turnout will confirm a greater legitimacy

:06:24.:06:33.

that we -- than we have at the moment. The public simply don't

:06:33.:06:38.

know who to go to, they can't name their police authority chair, so

:06:38.:06:41.

there will be a greater legitimacy. It is interesting that a poll

:06:41.:06:46.

recently conducted found that two thirds of the public, when asked,

:06:46.:06:49.

said they would vote, and we know there is a great deal of concern

:06:49.:06:55.

about crime. It is always a top priority for the public, and people

:06:55.:06:59.

will be motivated turnout because they care about these matters

:06:59.:07:03.

aren't there will be a lot of local media interest as we approach the

:07:03.:07:07.

elections next November. Who will be funding the campaigns for these

:07:07.:07:12.

people? I know that it sounds a very granular question, but

:07:12.:07:18.

political parties are strapped for cash so they will not one to. Who

:07:18.:07:22.

will run these campaigns? Were have been clear that political parties

:07:22.:07:26.

are free to field candidates if they want to, but we have also

:07:26.:07:30.

served as the government that we are more than happy for

:07:30.:07:34.

independents to stand. We are looking for people of real Kaaba,

:07:34.:07:41.

people who have run big organisations, who have a track

:07:41.:07:45.

record of success, to put their names forward for election. They

:07:45.:07:50.

don't need to be party candidate. What matters is that we have Virk

:07:50.:07:53.

group of people who think they can make a difference and it is

:07:53.:07:58.

important to understand they won't be interfering in the operational

:07:58.:08:00.

independence of police officers but they will be holding them to

:08:00.:08:05.

account and they will be the voice of the people. Have you got big

:08:05.:08:10.

figures coming forward? I think there will be. We have already seen

:08:10.:08:15.

a lot of interest in these elections. Can you name a few?

:08:15.:08:19.

know that Colonel Tim Collins has put his name forward in Kent.

:08:19.:08:24.

know that - any other names? just wait, I think there will be

:08:24.:08:32.

them, and parliament has just agreed this policy. You will find

:08:32.:08:38.

that interesting people put their names forward, and it is not you or

:08:38.:08:42.

me deciding who will be elected, it is the people deciding who they

:08:42.:08:46.

want to put in office to hold the police to account, to make sure

:08:46.:08:51.

there is a better deal for victims, and that people's priorities are

:08:51.:08:56.

reflected in policing. People have not had a say outside London in

:08:56.:09:01.

that before. This policy is about people power. Don't you worry about

:09:01.:09:07.

the populism that might follow from this, that you might have elected

:09:07.:09:09.

police commissioners coming to the end of their term, they will need

:09:09.:09:14.

to come up with an eye-catching initiative. If the case hasn't been

:09:14.:09:22.

sold, they will be calling for heads to roll - is that the best

:09:22.:09:25.

way to do policing? They can't interfere with individual

:09:25.:09:30.

operations, but we have not seen that in London. The mayor stood on

:09:30.:09:34.

a platform of wanting to deal with things like a knife crime,

:09:34.:09:38.

responding to public concern. In the end, I trust the people to

:09:38.:09:42.

elect who they think will be best to hold the police to account. I

:09:42.:09:46.

don't believe this argument about extremism is a valid one because it

:09:47.:09:52.

is tantamount to saying you can't trust the public to make a decision

:09:52.:09:57.

in their area so we will leave this to be decided by independent or

:09:57.:10:01.

unelected bodies with no accountability at all. Let's trust

:10:01.:10:06.

the people, give them the say for the first time outside of London.

:10:06.:10:15.

Thank you. A pint designed -- behind you looks quite enticing.

:10:15.:10:19.

Didn't David Blunkett have it right in that film that politicians love

:10:19.:10:23.

to talk the talk of handing power down, and hate the idea of it in

:10:23.:10:28.

practice? Yes, having said that we must give the coalition a fair

:10:28.:10:31.

hearing on this. They have said from the beginning they wanted to

:10:31.:10:38.

do this. The question is how this works in practice and how they then

:10:38.:10:42.

feel about it because they have these things they want to deal of

:10:42.:10:49.

local mayors and police commissioners. In Birmingham they

:10:49.:10:53.

have a strong candidate for mayor, among many, but she wouldn't

:10:53.:10:59.

control policing buyer would tease. How can this makes sense? This

:10:59.:11:02.

person is capable senior political person, and then she has to deal

:11:02.:11:09.

with another police commissioner. It seems you could add more layers

:11:09.:11:16.

than you have suggested. I agree, the London model is of course where

:11:16.:11:21.

Boris is in charge of the police but also in charge of transport and

:11:21.:11:26.

budget as well. What we are lacking is almost a lack of integration. We

:11:26.:11:30.

have too many people being elected here. I think it is a good idea,

:11:30.:11:34.

but the question you asked about, there have candidates would be

:11:34.:11:39.

addressed if it was integrated. Both of you, thank you. That is it

:11:39.:11:46.

for this week. Thank you took all of our guests. By next week, two

:11:46.:11:50.

giant pandas will be installed in London Zoo. They had just landed

:11:50.:11:57.

from China. They first are the first of these creatures to live in

:11:57.:12:00.

this country for many years, but let's face it the most dangerous

:12:00.:12:05.

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