02/10/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.

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In Scotland, the Tories are fretting over whether they need a


new party. Their only MP says "not in my name".


We'll speak to David Mundell. And 40 years on, we'll reflect on the


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1839 seconds


There are serious issues for us to deal with as a country and we are


getting to grips with those. think a lot of people listening to


you today will say they don't seem to get it. It sounds


extraordinarily complacent. The plan is not working. The deficit is


rising, not falling. If you can say it is to for now but the deficit is


not falling, we have had an evaluation, a balance of trade,


worse - nothing shows the economy is going right. A lot of people


listening to you today, with due respect, will be thinking if that


the only answer they have to this debt crisis is to say let's borrow


a bit more, they will say thank God the government has changed. Thank


God for the future of this country and the future of our children that


we have a government show leadership and taking control for a


better future. Disappointed you didn't fall into the trap of Tory


leadership in Scotland. We have heard today about plans to


reinvigorate the right to buy it in part help boost the economy. Will


Labour back it today? We will be joined by the shadow business


secretary. Do you support the plans? We did keep the right to buy


it in place when we were in government but we get a balance


whether discount wasn't too high that we lost too many homes we


couldn't replace. One of the pirate is for me would be putting a tax on


the banks and putting that money into building social housing, which


is needed today to help create jobs and boost the economy. When it may


ask you about a policy, which is that you will not be able to take


an unfair dismissal case against an employer if you haven't worked for


them for two years. At the moment it is one years. I think two things.


I don't see the pressing need to make life worse for people that


work in that way, but the government itself thinks that will


make 3000 cases difference in a whole year. If anybody wants to


tell me or you that growth in this country is being held back


massively by 3000 tribunal places, I think they are wrong. Secondly it,


there are massive frustrations about the way the tribunal system


works. Let me just interrupt. You said you don't see the need for


this to change, isn't the Government seeing the pressing need


of employers? Yes, they are, and employers have got a fair case that


each year cases go through the tribunal system that cost employers


a lot of money. What you should do is sort out the way the tribunal


system operates, make sure people can't push and vexatious case for


ages, make sure cases in tribunals are not dropped because the


listings have gone wrong, sort of the system, and then you can deal


with the legitimate claims of employers without removing the


rights of what are usually, a amongst the lowest paid and


vulnerable people in the country. That government would argue they


are trying to change something fundamentally on the supply side -


deregulation, cutting corporation tax, reviewing planning laws. Do


you agree with any of those? Planning laws - last year they


changed the planning system so today we have 200,000 less planning


permissions for homes in this country than we had one year ago.


If they had non-dom not, they wouldn't have made the situation


work. They have put the planning system into chaos. They are now


locked into an increasingly abusive debate with the National Trust and


so on about building on good countryside when one year ago they


had 200,000 more planning permissions, most of which were on


brownfield sites so they have made things worse. Nothing they're doing


will change this. They are cutting the deficit to far and too fast,


which is harming economic growth. We have the lowest of any G7


country last year, apart from the earthquake hit Japan. Get that


right, cut VAT, encourage businesses to take on more people


by cutting National Insurance, and let's get the economy moving.


moment we will be speaking to three Conservative MPs about their hopes


for the week ahead. First, the Politics Show near you.


Good afternoon and welcome to the Politics Show Scotland. On the


programme today: As the Tory faithful gather in Manchester,


their only Scottish MP and government minister ups the stakes


in the leadership campaign. Murdo Fraser's proposal for a new


party is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is a step too far,


it is about destroying and not building on what we have got.


the Tories need a new name in Scotland - indeed a new set-up


altogether? We'll ask four leadership supporters if the


party's over. And back to the croft. The crofting


lifestyle has survived for centuries, passed down through


families. But for how much longer? Will new legislation help or hinder


the next generation of crofters? And coming up later: I must say to


the creditor of Scotland, I think they are upwardly mobile, much more


than the rest of England, I would say. General Pervez Musharraf on


boosting Pakistan's economy, the threat of terrorism, and Scottish


independence. And 40 years on from the UCS sit-in,


we ask what is its lasting legacy? But first, here's Graham Stewart


with the news. Scotland's only Conservative


government minister has condemned plans to disband the party north of


the border. David Mundell's comments come on the first day of


the Tory conference in Manchester. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister has


said he expects all the pro-union parties to join forces to oppose


independence for Scotland. From Manchester, our political


correspondent Tim Reid. Among Scottish Tories here this week,


there is one item for discussion and that is the leadership. All


four candidate will be putting out their ideas tomorrow, but Murdo


Fraser has an idea to form a new party which has been dismissed by


all of his rivals. Today, an intervention from Scotland's only


Tory minister. I am backing Ruth Davidson in this election, not just


because she will keep the Conservative Party in Scotland but


because I believe she has the best chance of attracting new people to


vote for the party. She has the energy and leadership skills to


take us forward. Whilst the Prime Minister wants all those opposed to


independence to join forces against the SNP, Annabel Goldie will today


say she wants Alex Salmond to call that a date for the referendum.


Scotland's elimination from the Rugby World Cup was confirmed this


morning as Argentina beat Georgia. It means that for the first time


ever, the Scots have failed to make the quarter finals. But the head


coach Andy Robinson says he has no intention of quitting. I have a


contract until 2015 and I have the desire to still coached Scotland.


The way the players have gone about this tournament, the enthusiasm


they have has fuelled my desire even more to create a successful


Scotland team. Almost 10,000 runners are braving


the elements to take part in the Great Edinburgh run today. This


year sees the biggest ever programme of events, with the


addition of a new 5k course, alongside the existing 10k run. The


race starts and finishes in Holyrood park and amongst those


taking part are the reigning Olympic, 3,000 metres steeplechase


champion, Brimin Kipruto and last year's Commonwealth Games marathon


winner, John Kelai. And the forecast this afternoon will turn


bright with sunny spells for most, as the outbreaks of patchy rain


across southern and eastern Scotland become confined to the


Borders and Dumfries and Galloway by this evening. Temperatures will


reach 15 or 16 Celsius. During this evening, the rain in the far south


will die out to leave a dry night for most with clearer breaks.


However, rain will edge into the northwest during the evening,


before spreading eastwards across northern parts of the country


overnight. It will turn windy with gales in parts of the north. That's


it for now - our next update from the newsroom is at 6.50pm. Now it's


back to Brian. Thanks, Graham. And so the


Conservative conference gets under way this weekend with the slogan


"Leadership for a better future". But in Scotland the leadership of


the party is currently being contested and the future's none too


certain either. Not least because one of the leadership candidates,


Murdo Fraser, wants to put an end to the Scottish Tories in their


current form and start again with a new centre-right party. Our


reporter Hayley Jarvis has been on the campaign trail with all four


candidates. You have to cast your mind back to 1955 to find a time


when the Conservatives had the majority of Scottish seats. Then


they were called the Unionist Party, now they have just one MP and 15


MSPs. The latest attempt to turn around the party's fortunes, a


review, may not have been rock 'n' roll but he recommended there


should be an election of the leader of the party. Could this be the


man? Not if he has this way? If Murdo Fraser wins, he will replace


the party with the new centre-right group. While his supporters in


Glasgow think it is a good idea, others are not convinced. I always


knew there would be people who would find it difficult to come to


terms with the scale of the change I have been proposing. However, if


you look at the range of people backing me, we have seven members


of the Scottish parliament, nearly 50 elected Conservative councillors,


we have Scotland's Conservative MEP, we have Malcolm Rifkind and Lord


Tebbit supporting me. People will realise this is not some whimsical


fantasy, it is a serious proposal and something that needs to happen


if we are going to see a future for centre-right politics across


Scotland. With growing opposition to his plans, could the deputy


leader have slipped up? Clearly, he has set the agenda in this campaign.


I think it is a bold move. I'm not concerned it is a radical move


because I don't think the party will change. The vehicle may change


but it message will not change, so it is bold rather than radical.


Whether that is too bold for the Conservative party - after all, it


is a Conservative Party - we will have to see but without that


message she would have been the clear favourite to win. This is the


first election when party members will decide who becomes leader.


Little is known about them except they are rare breed. Membership has


fallen by almost half in the last five years to around 8500. We don't


know anything about the membership in Scotland. We hear stories that


most are over 70, most of them are women, most are inactive and so on.


Ruth Davidson is trying to find out more about the party members. The


32 year-old is a relative newcomer to politics, she became an MSP in


May. She has pledged to visit every constituency in Scotland as part of


her campaign. Today she is telling voters she will offer generational


change within the existing structure of the party. I think in


the context of a leadership debate, it is a right that different


candidates put out their vision for the future. I think Murdo Fraser is


asking the right questions about what we have done poorly in the


past, but I am proud to be a Scottish Conservative Unionist and


I believe I can build future success for the party going forward.


52 year-old Jackson -- Jackson Carlaw says the party needs to


focus on the issues that matter. think changing the name is a


distraction. It is a superficial change that would lead us to be


divided for the next 18 months. All the while Alex Salmond will be


planning the break-up of the United Kingdom. We have to concentrate on


the defence of Scotland's place within the UK, and make sure we are


in a fit state to win the referendum. I am not the status quo


candidate. I think the party needs to be shaken up. Because my


experience reaches back to when we had 23 members of Parliament at


Westminster, to when we had a professional organisation, I


understand what we need to do. Discuss a torrid -- dissatisfied,


Margaret Mitchell became a late Want. Was the constitutional issue,


where they were saying the... That was one issue. More than that, they


seem to be arguing about the change of name, a change of party,


consulting more with members. Nobody was arguing about people and


for me, politics is about people. It is a four horse race. Is the


party in danger of veering off course in a contest that was


supposed to improve its odds at the ballot box?


The big break this morning on that issue of the Conservative


leadership, David Mundell, at the Scotland Office joins me. Thanks


for joining us. Let's start on your views on the leadership contest.


You gave a written guarantee that you wouldn't and agreed in the


leadership contest. What has happened? I had hoped that I would


be able to stay on neutral ground. If it had been a simple election, I


probably would. This is a debate about the entire future of the


Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. It is about whether people


in Scotland will have the chance to vote Conservative. I think if that


right is taken away, it is a betrayal of our members and the


420,000 people who did vote Conservative at the UK general


election. If the new constitution, the new party with a new name, is


to go through, it will have been democratically endorsed by the


Conservatives in Scotland. Shouldn't you abide by that? As we


all know, there is a completely separate process for changing the


party than for the leadership. It has been quite unclear during the


campaign at how that would be achieved. My understanding was an


entirely new party was to be set up. There seems to be some fudging on


mat and a transfer of assets being mandated. We don't have a great


deal of clarity on that. What my commitment is, to keep the Scottish


party and Unionist Party going because I believe voters in


Scotland want to have the opportunity to vote for a majority


Conservative Government at Westminster. To be clear, if the


new party goes ahead, if it is set up in Scotland, it would take the


Westminster whip through negotiation. If it is set up, you


were saying he would not serve as an MP for that a new party? Again,


you are putting a lot of IFS in to that question. Would you serve as


an MP under those colours? What I am saying is if I am fortunate to


be elected, I will be taking the Conservative whip at Westminster. I


would be entering into a coalition negotiations as to whether I should


sit on the Conservative benches. is simple. When you are running in


that campaign appears elections in 2015, when you ran under the banner


of the new party that has been established? -- and will you run?


We will have to see if that happens. It is really easy. You are talking


about the new party, you are condemn it and prepared to talk


about the new existence. Were you run and the new colours in your


constituency? I will be standing on the basis that I would be taking


the Conservative whip at twisters - - Westminster and hopefully part of


the majority Conservative Government implementing a


Conservative manifesto. If you won't run under the new colours,


they would be entitled to stand against you, wouldn't they? What I


think is quite clear is if you do set up a new organisation, people


in an existing organisation are not bound to become part of that. They


have to make that decision for themselves. I stand in any election


on the basis of my record. I stand also as a Conservative. I have


always made it clear that I was a Conservative and on each of the


occasions, I have managed to increase the Conservative vote in


the constituency I am standing in. 2010, general election in Scotland,


16.7%. 2011, election constituency, 13.9, list 12.4. That is a Tory


record. It hasn't worked wonderfully, has it? Nobody is


disputing that. Everybody accepts this election should be about


change and radical change. It shouldn't be about destroying what


we have. It should be about throwing the baby out with the bath


water. Let's build on what we have got, not destroy it. I believe that


there is an opportunity to move forward if we have the right


leadership, the right policies and divide campaigning style. It is


very easy and tempting, given the difficulties, to think that there


is a silver bullet. I'm afraid there is not. It is a combination


of things. We are setting up a new party and a new name is not one of


them. Manchester, the candidates are on route to conference right


now. To discuss the election, I am delighted to welcome key supporters.


Peter Duncan is here to speak up for Murdo Fraser, Mr Davidson and


head off Scottish Ballet, Stephanie. We had it advocate, William Frain-


Bell. Thank you for joining us. Duncan, the Commons by a Miss Tim


It doesn't help when it they say it is the wrong approach. You are


trying hard to be specific. He said he wanted to go to Westminster and


so the Conservative whip. They would take the Conservative whip


and help in the election of a Conservative Prime Minister. That


is what our predecessors did. is wrong with that, Stephanie


Fraser? It has demonstrated how unclear the proposals are. The


confusion. It could be David Mundell but is unclear, not Murdo


Fraser. It is unclear how Murdo Fraser is wanting to go. Are we


amalgamating all the existing assets and a new name? We are


talking about a new party, recognising that the Unionist Party


has failed to secure the support of 40% of people. He has been Deputy


Leader of the party for the last seven years. Surely he has to take


responsibility. He knows how bad it is? As I watched him at wriggling


like a worm, the only person who is enjoying this is Alex Salmond. He


is the Panther that everybody has to beat. To do that, you can't send


in an office cat. The have Ruth Davidson who has been in politics


for six weeks. I don't know what her politics are. You have Murdo


Fraser who will split the party in house and Jackson Carlaw. You think


it will split them rather than unite them? I sympathise with Murdo


Fraser, he has not got the right solution and the party will split


in half. You would not join the new party? If a somebody who believes


in democracy, I would go with what the members decide. That is what


David Mundell's problem was. If Murdo Fraser wins, he has to do


what he has to do. It would split the party. You are looking for


somebody it where the party can coalesce around. I have stood


against Alex Salmond. What we are facing here, we are handing an open


goal to the SNP. We must appear to be united. For what we should be


doing, so there focusing up on what the party is going to be culled, we


should be focusing on how we get support at a local level. That is


what Margaret Mitchell wants to do. Under the current set-up, you stood


against Alex Salmond. The present set-up isn't working too well.


came second and it was a very good election. There were one or two


thirds between ass. May I say that I know about how the SNP works.


They have mastered social midi and will continue to do that over the


next two or three years. -- Social media. You are saying that the SNP


are being successful because they are harnessing new media and new


campaigning tools. We have ceased in our party to be an effective


campaigning force. Now is the time for a generation change. I hope you


are not saying that just because people are all do, that they can't


embrace social media. We cannot spend the next few years fighting.


We have to show a positive message. The SNP are demonstrating...


you say it is the wrong time? statistic gets to the heart of why


Alex Salmond would be delighted if Murdo Fraser doesn't win. That is


6% of the Scottish electorate see the current Scottish Conservative


Unionist Party as putting Scottish interests first. That is less than


half of those people that voted. Shouldn't you change your policy


and your approach rather than your name? We would have a new party but


we would have any policies, new people. You say you don't need a


new captain, G need a new ship? They are those that are not part of


the party that will see themselves as having a new home. Alex Salmond


doesn't care who wins this election. He will not be frightened of any of


the candidates. What is needed is not only a new leader, it is going


to have to be policy lead. People are going to have to be attracted


by the policies regardless of who the leader is. If what about the


argument that the brand is so toxic that you can't get an audience for


the policies. You can't get by that toxicity in the brand to get a


hearing at all? All they did was add the words, new, on the front.


They changed their policies. They change them at the very core and


that has not been addressed by a main candidates. Let's talk about


funding. We were talking about assets are shifting to this new


party. What about funding of William? Will they be far better?


From what the press has been indicating, there are one or two


names that have indicated that they will supply money. People are


attracted by something new and exciting and would like to be


involved in it. If we are talking about funding, we could easily use


the same funding. If everybody was working together, we could be using


the funding to look at the existing party and working out how we can


best use money to use the party that we have at the moment, to take


head on some major decisions that are going to be made by the


Scottish people in the next few years. I want to know that their


money is coming to be effectively spent. They want to know that they


are going to see the source. The problem we have had is too many


offenders have not seen many -- have seen many them down the toilet.


It is not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is


about providing an effective plan and saying, if we have your support,


this is what we can do. I had been party chairman during elections


where we have spent huge amounts of money and they have not seen


resorts. The reality is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist


Party have failed to secure that massive cent weight vote in


Scotland. This new party will be the start of coalescing at this


party. If Murdo Fraser wins, then we will have a new party and the


membership will endorse that. If he loses, he has said that he will


remain an enthusiastic supporter. He says there is no future for the


party in its present form. It will never succeed in its present form.


It must adapt or die. You are saying you remain a member of a


party that you say has no future. think the statistics are very clear.


We have to vote share. How could you stay there when you think it is


the dead party? The cars at the end of the day, I believe in civic


responsibility, in enterprise... You have to be honest. If Murdo


Fraser wins this, the party will split in half. If Ruth wins this,


people will not support her either. We need somebody with experience,


gravitas, and that will have to be Jackson Carlaw. When David Cameron


stepped forward as a young person... Ruth Davidson has been in


Parliament for six weeks! That speaks of the lack of being able to


develop any talent in the Conservative Party. If I may, I


think it is wrong to penalise the only candidate who has been an


elected councillor. She understands local issues. Why should she be


penalised? With Davidson has no political experience. We need


someone with significant political experience and that is Margaret


Mitchell. Margaret Mitchell, to varying degrees, is more at the


same. The reality is the ship is going down. He is just turning


around saying we are doomed, we need the positives. He are going to


have to find a new name! Let's have a look at the list of named the


That is the list. You are laughing, but you don't fancy any of those?


think the Titanic should be the name because it is going down and


fast. You don't fancy any of those? I'm not sure it will make any


difference. I wasn't sure what is being referred to as the tightening


because the Scottish Unionist Party is not sinking, it is in good hands


and it is going forward. Things will change. People will start...


It things will change. A man me tell you why - because over the


next few years, people will start having to think about how they will


vote in his forthcoming referendum and the Conservative Party is the


voice of Unionism. If it is not United, the referendum may well go


in favour... N the of those names tickle you? I am a Conservative, my


father was a proud conservative, my grandfather was elected as a


Unionist, and before him he was elected as a moderate. Naming


itself is not a big deal. Your are going to have to choose one.


think there are merits in lots of them. Do problem with Murdo


Fraser... It is a consultation with the membership and we will make our


decision. The you could call yourselves the Jacobites! If you


launch a campaign, the premise is that you have to change the party's


name that everyone can coalesce around. You can imagine he would be


able to tell us what that will be. The name will not involve


Conservative and Unionist, we have got to have a new start. What is


wrong with Conservatives or unionists? C X the scent of the


Scottish electorate see us as putting Scotland's interests first


and that has got to change. It is not a problem with the name.


you have been trying to tweak policies for ages. I remember some


very esteemed figures in our party. In 1997 the Strathclyde Commission


saying if we get the policies right things will change, and they


haven't. Particularly when Ruth Davidson says give it 10 years...


There are briefly. This new party will have new policies as well. We


are thinking about bosses now, policies that help local people at


a local level. Thanks to all your contributions from all four of you.


I am not sure about the name. Jacobites.


Coming up later in the programme - 40 years on, the legacy of the UCS


sit-in. People sent people from all over the world to look at it and it


was very inspiring and positive. There are almost 18,000 crofts in


Scotland, stretching from Shetland to Argyll. This unique system of


small-scale, part-time agriculture holdings has helped support rural


populations for centuries. And this weekend new legislation comes in,


aimed at making modern crofting more viable. But problems with


absentee crofters, land speculation, neglect and a declining population


of young people, pose formidable challenges for its future. This


report from Angus Macdonald in Stornoway. This part of the area


was involved in some land agitation in the 19th century, and what


became known later as the Agnes riot. The relationship between


crofters and legislators is still uneasy. The crofting Act of 2010 is


still being treated by crofters with a degree of suspicion.


Legislation alone will not protect crofting. They are good part to the


legislation, parts that are not so good, and parts that are wholly


untested. Crofting has been part of the area for centuries. There are


over 18,000 crofts. The income is so small that other employment is


essential. Governments have tried to give crofting a viable future


but the problems are difficult. Speculation in croft land, absentee


tenants and misuse of the land itself. Last year's crofting Reform


Act changed the ruling body, enabling crofters to elect their


own representatives. It's disappointing the development rule


has gone from the commission, and if it becomes a bit part of another


agency, crofting will lose out. Stornoway the legal profession is


about as close as you can get to being expert in crofting law. They


are waiting in particular to see what effect it will have on


crofting land. A I'm not aware there it is damping down, the


market, in terms of the clawback. There seems to be an interest in


crofting from young people, and in interest in still building croft


houses. There has done been any noticeable change in the area. --


not been. There was also pressure to rule out absentee crofters.


to me it is not the death of crofting. Neglect is a big one.


They're very good reasons for absenteeism, there is no reason for


neglect. There have been mistakes you read about in the press, but


generally they have been very clear about it. If they can put up a good


case, they will look at it sympathetically. Crofting has lost


out because people have been forced off the land, forced to make a


career for themselves and their families, many of whom have


returned. Without these people returning in generations past, we


would not have crofting today. The most important thing is that


whoever has to croft, they ensure the whole thing is in the interests


of the community. What of the most controversial provisions branded by


the council as a snoopers charter, is the responsibility placed on


gracing committees and clerks to act against those who misuse their


crofts. The Clarke must be inspired with enough confidence to make sure


he fulfils his role. Their perception may totally differ, and


no matter how conscientious one is, they will make enemies along the


road. What is more important - to live peacefully with your neighbour


or seemed to be carrying out a bit of legislation that is not


necessarily what crofting needs. This is the latest attempt to make


crofting a viable system but an ongoing conspiracy between the


forces of a maternity leave the future of crofting unclear.


I'm joined now from Aberdeen by Stewart Stevenson, the Environment


Minister. Hearing there about issues in the legislation, detailed


issues in crofting. Let me start in a more fundamental way - what do


you see as the purpose of crofting in modern Scotland? It does date


back to the clearances in the Victorian times which were a blight


upon the north and west of Scotland. The original legislation in


Victorian times was the first attempt to make sure that people


had the right to remain on their land and to live in their


communities, and have the access to resources. That is restated in the


2010 legislation, that it is about keeping people on the land and


making sure the land upon which they lived is in a fit and proper


state. Do you still think there is that practical role, or is it a


product of history and sentiment? There is a very practical role


indeed. We must remember that much of our countryside depends on the


stewardship that we exercised over it as crofters, as farmers, as


people who visit the countryside. Creating the landscape, creating


the wonderful environment that so many visitors come to, that much of


the world admires. The legislation in 1993, and 2010, it is feared to


sustaining these remote and vulnerable communities. I'm sure we


can make significant contribution through this new piece of


legislation. What about the fears are that there will be a


detrimental result in transferring development money? The crofting


Commission, which will prove to be a predominantly elected body, will


be a strong champion to work with Highlands and Islands Enterprise.


The commission themselves will not have the money, it will be


transferred to others. Yes, but H I eat is a body that represents the


interests of the islands and it is demonstrated by the economic


development we have seen, the powerhouse in many ways in


Scotland's economy, the benefits of long running engagement and


investment in our communities, that will not change. On the contrary,


the work they will be doing with the crofting Commission and


individual crofters will be integrated with wider development.


The concern might be that the development continues in the


Inverness region, and perhaps the crofting lands themselves more


remote don't get the money they got in the past. No, that is not the


case. We are powering through democratic accountability in the


crofting Commission, but also the rolling of the grazing committees


are renounced so there is local engagement in what is going on. It


is very clear we will understand exactly what is required in the way


of investment, financial and practical support to crofting


communities. There is a future for crofting that is important to


Scotland. You mentioned the grazing committees. We heard that their


concern, something that it could be a snoopers charter unless it is


properly organised. People were very concerned about absentee


crofters. I think we are delivering the power to make sure the crofting


Commission is aware of what requires to be done. We do need


local people on the ground. The grazing Committee is a vital part


of ensuring we link local to the crofting Commission. But if they


are to do their work properly, isn't there a concern one neighbour


will grass upon another if they feel they are absent too much?


is about information being available to the crofting


Commission. When information is available, when the crofting


Commission can take the action that supports the overwhelming majority


of people who responded to the report, saying that we needed more


people resonant, saying that we needed better standards of


stewardship over the crofts. former Pakistani president, Pervez


Musharaf, visited Scotland this week. The exiled general ruled


Pakistan for nine years until 2008, before fleeing to the UK. General


Musharraf is wanted by an anti- terrorist court in Pakistan over


accusations he failed to protect the former Prime Minister, Benazir


Bhutto, from assassination in December 2007. He describes the


case against him as "baseless" and politically driven and plans to


return to Pakistan within the next six months. My colleague, Glenn


Campbell caught up with him in In 2009, Gordon Brown, said that


two-thirds or three-quarters of all terrorist plots in Britain


originated all were linked to patterns -- Pakistan. Why is that?


I agree that many of the plots, the people had some link with the


Pakistan. They were born and bred here so one should take


responsibility here. Roof why are the terrorists when they were born


and bred here? Because of the turmoil in Pakistan and Afghanistan,


they found safe haven where they could train and get some resources


may be, through whatever resources were going to the Taliban.


understand why radical Islam is attractive to some people,


particularly young Muslim men in this country? We need to understand


the causes. The root causes are poverty in Afghanistan. The Shi'ite


bombers, they are cases of poverty and illiteracy. They are told that


if they blow themselves up, they go to heaven. He thinks this is true


and he is miserable here. He is going to live a very wonderful life


in the next world. He is a literate enough to not understand this. The


people here are not poor and illiterate. That is a political


turmoil. Since after the Second World War, every political issue


has Muslim connections, Muslim countries are involved. In each one


of them, Muslim countries are on the receiving end. Palestine, no


resolution. Kashmir, no resolution. Their implementation, then come


Bosnia and Chechnya. No independence to Chechnya. Estonia,


Lithuania, all three can bind of one-tenth of Chechnya that they get


their independence, not Chechnya. There is anger, frustration.


Political disputes, Muslims being alienated, Muslims suffering,


therefore it is these political disputes. Also poverty and


illiteracy which causes the problems. What Maud -- what more


could you country do to help support stability in Pakistan and


help the economy picked up there? think there are a lot of Pakistanis


who do well here. I must say to the credit of Scotland, the Pakistani


people are Upwood -- upwardly mobile, much more than the rest of


England. I think they some -- should contribute more in


moderation, promote tolerance here and then maybe, if they want to


help, economic assistance in Pakistan. Investment in Pakistan.


Many investors are taking their money out right now. That is


because of lack of confidence in the Government, lack of trust in


the Government. The dollar exchange rate has gone from -- gone down in


so many years. Many Pakistani scalds have become involved in the


domestic politics of the country. - - Scots. Some weather -- someone to


know whether we should be independent of the UK. Do you have


a comment on that? No, I would not like to comment. All over the world,


there is nationalism and it is a strong force. It is exerting


everywhere. Czechoslovak feet -- Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic,


French speaking, English-speaking, I wouldn't like to comment. If you


were back running Pakistan, would it matter to you if the UK remained


intact or indeed if it Scotland became independent? Never thought


of it frankly. We are dealing with the United Kingdom. Thank you very


much indeed. From that back to Scottish matters. Do you remember


the UCS working? It is 40 years since the workers, Reid and Airlie,


occupied the shipbuilders in protests. Veterans have been


marking the anniversary with a gala concert at the Mitchell Theatre in


Glasgow. In a moment, we will look at the legacy of UCS. Gilly


Mathieson has been talking to those that helped save the shipping


It was an all-star cast as veterans and their supporters celebrated 40


years of the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work in. The artists


included some who played in fund- raising concerts at the time. The


working was called in 19 centre one when the Conservative Government,


led by Sir Edward Heath, refused to give ECS a subsidy to save the


shipyards from being closed. For the workers, action was taken to


protect their jobs. As soon as the concept of a work in, not a


traditional strike or sit in the was conceived, momentum grew and


everybody knew that there was something different about the


activity. Particularly being led by a Jimmy Reid and Jimmy air Lee, we


knew that they were exceptional leaders. We should reverse the


whole plan. They went on building and I came and supported them. We


were in opposition at that time. Harold Wilson was nervous but he


went up to Glasgow. He was convinced by what was being done.


The Government was faced with harsh economic times and their plan was


to rein in Government intervention in the economy in an effort to


break with the socialist policies of the 1960s. The mood of Britain


was for somebody to stand up to a reaction in Government. It did


capture the attention of the whole of Britain in supporting Mez.


Footballers, you could actually get into the Citizens Theatre with your


union card. The campaign continued to gather momentum. We had the


Marxist and the ministers, everyone in the team, churches, schools,


supporting the UCS. They paid the workers who were not working and


that support lasted. The most memorable moment I had was the day


they organised the march from the yard to Glasgow. The Yard's turned


out and it was great. The humour in the yard was marvellous. People


didn't let the situation get them down. Getting their message across


was crucial for the UCS who were competing with the Government press


machine. For my part, the Government miss read the situation


and thought that they had the upper hand by controlling the tabloids


and the broadsheets. The guys immediately recognised that it is a


new type of campaign. We decided we would be as good at the media as


those guys. Having Jimmy Reid as an Auditor, it was wonderful. We are


going to fight this and we are going to fight it with


determination. In 1972, but Government backed down and history


was made. It helped change minds because we could have gone ahead


after the receivership and sheet down industry. They didn't do that


because workers were saying that they weren't going to resist what


was going on, they were going to work on. Demanding the right to


work. There was a powerful message at the time. -- but that was.


Veterans here is still have a message they want to pass on. Many


feel the UCS has been airbrushed from history. They say this piece


of social and industrial history must never be forgotten.


Is it just history always fair and lasting legacy? With me is


Professor Tom Devine and the actress, Elaine C Smith. You were


taking part in that concert last night. What was your role? I had


the honour of reading the famous Rat race address. When it was said


initially, I thought, oh yes. It was a woman's voice reading it and


it took it out of the smoke-filled rooms and the old fashioned Labour


politics. Also, it could have been written up this morning. That is


what struck me, given where we are in the recession, given the people


that have been put out of work. The relevance and the vision, that is


what the whole celebration is about. You are far too young to remember


it directly, what is the reminiscence for you? It was men


like my dad and my ankles. I came from a working-class background. --


Mike uncles. They were all part of that industry. It was here, that


the level of intellectualism that was involved, hearing how an


ordinary working-class man spoke with such fission, those images of


the men running out of the gates. It was so huge. What did this mean?


It formed my own ideas of politics. Tom, what did it mean? Is it just a


historical event these days? It was in the short run an enormous


victory against the Government which is unusual. Lot of the venues


have been propound as humanity over many sources. We are not far away


from the context that we have had today in that period. The other


thing that strikes me, the world that we have lost, people like read


it work self educated. He left school at 14 and taught himself.


The hidden background is the Communist Party, of which the


leaders were members, made sure that they were well educated. I


wonder whether that great tradition, that great cultural that tradition


as apt. The Communist Party was in financial -- influential in those


days. The fascinating thing is that has passed away. In no way did that


leadership overtly state that the human factor was more important


than capital. Elaine, the legacy? You only have to listen to Ed


Miliband's speech, but you see that there is a desire, a desire to


harness capitalism and say, there is another way her. It is not that


I am a supporter but that attempt at a different sort of discussion,


it came to me. Everything you say about morality, humanity and other


things, it is more about that. We have lost that. It is not a


romantic legacy, we were not looking back thinking we should be


in the shipyards again, it has redefined we are. Tom, there was a


degree of support for UCS. We have pending strikes likely in the


public sector in the UK at the moment. Is that degree of sympathy


likely to be there in those strikes? It is not possible to tell


yet because this is still to happen. The scenario is not significantly


different to what it was then. If there is a lesson from the UCAS are


working, it is not to be sectional or sectarian in the trade unions


sense. They have to guard and support from all parts of the


committee if they are going to be successful. They will be easily


targeted otherwise by other sources of authority. That is a great.


Because if you go down that old fashioned route, it puts people off.


Ordinary workers are going, how does this reply -- relate to me?


That disconnection between ordinary people. If the newspapers have the


ability to say that anybody there goes on strike is evil, we have to


say that we are those people wanting to live differently and


this is unjust and unfair. That connect is important. The trade


unions are in the period then had a terrible repetition because they


had been three years of union discontent. This is why this idea


of working to save the yards, the working was so innovative and


successful. One of the things in the current situation, if some


visionary could come up with something as a formula, they could


be onto a winner. I detect a lot of anger, a lot of anger because the


Elise, the bankers, the politicians and other elites can have betrayed


-- have behaved badly. Isn't there a desperate anger, or rather that


that -- that the angle was particular? The difficulty is these


discontents are so widely spread. It is possible to play one group


off against another. They will be a tougher challenge than it was with


that particular period. The other thing is to sentimentalise, which


is wrong, the period of the colics. There are no two yards in the Clyde


which would not be there except for the working. You are adamant about


that? Let's face it, that all economy disappeared a few years


later. There's no doubt the Conservative Party learnt a lesson


from that. We have to be hard on this group. Ironically, you could


see that the success spawned the Was this a Scottish phenomenon?


had global route. Tony Benn spoke last night about the little boy who


gets stuck down the well, and the local community put a rope down. It


is not long enough, they get a longer one and it is not long


enough. The boy shouts "tie them all together". It is simplistic,


but it is important. Many intellectuals are trying to harness


the different ideas to say There is another way. Thanks to both of you.


Unfortunately we are out of time. That is all for the Politics Show


this week. Raymond be can and will be standing in at the same time


next week. I will be going to Manchester to see how the candidate


targeted on. -- the candidates are getting on. When it comes to


support, Ed Miliband was in pretty powerful company. It added to


everyone, but when a politician's gaffe is caught on camera, it is


embarrassing. You want me to recite it? I can't. Whose idea was that?


Be honest, who didn't feel for the Labour leader when our


correspondent asked in this question. Can you name the three of


them? Yes, as I say, though this Tom howls, Joanne Lamont and a


third candidate who is also putting himself forward. The front-runner,


Ken Mackintosh. The front-runner but you can't name him? He is an


excellent candidate. That third candidate laughed it off publicly.


I forget the names of my kids most of the time so it shows politicians


are human. Baroness Warsi was given the same challenge for the Tories.


Can you name them? We have Murdo Fraser, Jackson Carlaw, Ruth


Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.

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