02/10/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


02/10/2011

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 02/10/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

In Scotland, the Tories are fretting over whether they need a

:00:41.:00:44.

new party. Their only MP says "not in my name".

:00:44.:00:47.

We'll speak to David Mundell. And 40 years on, we'll reflect on the

:00:47.:00:57.
:00:57.:00:57.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1839 seconds

:00:57.:31:37.

There are serious issues for us to deal with as a country and we are

:31:37.:31:41.

getting to grips with those. think a lot of people listening to

:31:41.:31:46.

you today will say they don't seem to get it. It sounds

:31:46.:31:50.

extraordinarily complacent. The plan is not working. The deficit is

:31:50.:31:55.

rising, not falling. If you can say it is to for now but the deficit is

:31:55.:32:00.

not falling, we have had an evaluation, a balance of trade,

:32:00.:32:09.

worse - nothing shows the economy is going right. A lot of people

:32:09.:32:13.

listening to you today, with due respect, will be thinking if that

:32:13.:32:18.

the only answer they have to this debt crisis is to say let's borrow

:32:18.:32:25.

a bit more, they will say thank God the government has changed. Thank

:32:25.:32:29.

God for the future of this country and the future of our children that

:32:29.:32:33.

we have a government show leadership and taking control for a

:32:33.:32:39.

better future. Disappointed you didn't fall into the trap of Tory

:32:39.:32:45.

leadership in Scotland. We have heard today about plans to

:32:45.:32:49.

reinvigorate the right to buy it in part help boost the economy. Will

:32:49.:32:53.

Labour back it today? We will be joined by the shadow business

:32:53.:33:00.

secretary. Do you support the plans? We did keep the right to buy

:33:00.:33:04.

it in place when we were in government but we get a balance

:33:04.:33:07.

whether discount wasn't too high that we lost too many homes we

:33:07.:33:17.
:33:17.:33:25.

couldn't replace. One of the pirate is for me would be putting a tax on

:33:25.:33:30.

the banks and putting that money into building social housing, which

:33:30.:33:36.

is needed today to help create jobs and boost the economy. When it may

:33:36.:33:42.

ask you about a policy, which is that you will not be able to take

:33:42.:33:45.

an unfair dismissal case against an employer if you haven't worked for

:33:45.:33:53.

them for two years. At the moment it is one years. I think two things.

:33:53.:33:57.

I don't see the pressing need to make life worse for people that

:33:57.:34:01.

work in that way, but the government itself thinks that will

:34:02.:34:06.

make 3000 cases difference in a whole year. If anybody wants to

:34:06.:34:12.

tell me or you that growth in this country is being held back

:34:12.:34:17.

massively by 3000 tribunal places, I think they are wrong. Secondly it,

:34:17.:34:20.

there are massive frustrations about the way the tribunal system

:34:20.:34:30.
:34:30.:34:30.

works. Let me just interrupt. You said you don't see the need for

:34:30.:34:34.

this to change, isn't the Government seeing the pressing need

:34:34.:34:40.

of employers? Yes, they are, and employers have got a fair case that

:34:40.:34:44.

each year cases go through the tribunal system that cost employers

:34:44.:34:48.

a lot of money. What you should do is sort out the way the tribunal

:34:48.:34:53.

system operates, make sure people can't push and vexatious case for

:34:53.:34:57.

ages, make sure cases in tribunals are not dropped because the

:34:57.:35:01.

listings have gone wrong, sort of the system, and then you can deal

:35:01.:35:04.

with the legitimate claims of employers without removing the

:35:05.:35:09.

rights of what are usually, a amongst the lowest paid and

:35:09.:35:12.

vulnerable people in the country. That government would argue they

:35:12.:35:16.

are trying to change something fundamentally on the supply side -

:35:16.:35:21.

deregulation, cutting corporation tax, reviewing planning laws. Do

:35:21.:35:27.

you agree with any of those? Planning laws - last year they

:35:27.:35:31.

changed the planning system so today we have 200,000 less planning

:35:31.:35:36.

permissions for homes in this country than we had one year ago.

:35:36.:35:39.

If they had non-dom not, they wouldn't have made the situation

:35:39.:35:44.

work. They have put the planning system into chaos. They are now

:35:44.:35:48.

locked into an increasingly abusive debate with the National Trust and

:35:48.:35:52.

so on about building on good countryside when one year ago they

:35:52.:35:56.

had 200,000 more planning permissions, most of which were on

:35:56.:36:02.

brownfield sites so they have made things worse. Nothing they're doing

:36:02.:36:07.

will change this. They are cutting the deficit to far and too fast,

:36:07.:36:11.

which is harming economic growth. We have the lowest of any G7

:36:11.:36:16.

country last year, apart from the earthquake hit Japan. Get that

:36:16.:36:21.

right, cut VAT, encourage businesses to take on more people

:36:21.:36:27.

by cutting National Insurance, and let's get the economy moving.

:36:27.:36:31.

moment we will be speaking to three Conservative MPs about their hopes

:36:31.:36:39.

for the week ahead. First, the Politics Show near you.

:36:39.:36:41.

Good afternoon and welcome to the Politics Show Scotland. On the

:36:41.:36:44.

programme today: As the Tory faithful gather in Manchester,

:36:44.:36:47.

their only Scottish MP and government minister ups the stakes

:36:47.:36:56.

in the leadership campaign. Murdo Fraser's proposal for a new

:36:56.:37:00.

party is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is a step too far,

:37:01.:37:05.

it is about destroying and not building on what we have got.

:37:05.:37:08.

the Tories need a new name in Scotland - indeed a new set-up

:37:08.:37:10.

altogether? We'll ask four leadership supporters if the

:37:10.:37:13.

party's over. And back to the croft. The crofting

:37:13.:37:15.

lifestyle has survived for centuries, passed down through

:37:15.:37:19.

families. But for how much longer? Will new legislation help or hinder

:37:19.:37:29.
:37:29.:37:31.

the next generation of crofters? And coming up later: I must say to

:37:31.:37:40.

the creditor of Scotland, I think they are upwardly mobile, much more

:37:41.:37:49.

than the rest of England, I would say. General Pervez Musharraf on

:37:49.:37:51.

boosting Pakistan's economy, the threat of terrorism, and Scottish

:37:51.:37:54.

independence. And 40 years on from the UCS sit-in,

:37:54.:37:57.

we ask what is its lasting legacy? But first, here's Graham Stewart

:37:57.:38:00.

with the news. Scotland's only Conservative

:38:00.:38:03.

government minister has condemned plans to disband the party north of

:38:03.:38:07.

the border. David Mundell's comments come on the first day of

:38:07.:38:10.

the Tory conference in Manchester. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister has

:38:10.:38:13.

said he expects all the pro-union parties to join forces to oppose

:38:13.:38:17.

independence for Scotland. From Manchester, our political

:38:17.:38:26.

correspondent Tim Reid. Among Scottish Tories here this week,

:38:26.:38:31.

there is one item for discussion and that is the leadership. All

:38:31.:38:37.

four candidate will be putting out their ideas tomorrow, but Murdo

:38:37.:38:41.

Fraser has an idea to form a new party which has been dismissed by

:38:41.:38:46.

all of his rivals. Today, an intervention from Scotland's only

:38:46.:38:51.

Tory minister. I am backing Ruth Davidson in this election, not just

:38:51.:38:55.

because she will keep the Conservative Party in Scotland but

:38:55.:38:58.

because I believe she has the best chance of attracting new people to

:38:58.:39:03.

vote for the party. She has the energy and leadership skills to

:39:03.:39:08.

take us forward. Whilst the Prime Minister wants all those opposed to

:39:08.:39:13.

independence to join forces against the SNP, Annabel Goldie will today

:39:13.:39:18.

say she wants Alex Salmond to call that a date for the referendum.

:39:18.:39:20.

Scotland's elimination from the Rugby World Cup was confirmed this

:39:20.:39:23.

morning as Argentina beat Georgia. It means that for the first time

:39:23.:39:27.

ever, the Scots have failed to make the quarter finals. But the head

:39:27.:39:32.

coach Andy Robinson says he has no intention of quitting. I have a

:39:32.:39:42.
:39:42.:39:42.

contract until 2015 and I have the desire to still coached Scotland.

:39:42.:39:46.

The way the players have gone about this tournament, the enthusiasm

:39:46.:39:51.

they have has fuelled my desire even more to create a successful

:39:51.:39:54.

Scotland team. Almost 10,000 runners are braving

:39:54.:39:57.

the elements to take part in the Great Edinburgh run today. This

:39:57.:39:59.

year sees the biggest ever programme of events, with the

:39:59.:40:05.

addition of a new 5k course, alongside the existing 10k run. The

:40:05.:40:07.

race starts and finishes in Holyrood park and amongst those

:40:07.:40:10.

taking part are the reigning Olympic, 3,000 metres steeplechase

:40:10.:40:12.

champion, Brimin Kipruto and last year's Commonwealth Games marathon

:40:12.:40:16.

winner, John Kelai. And the forecast this afternoon will turn

:40:16.:40:19.

bright with sunny spells for most, as the outbreaks of patchy rain

:40:19.:40:21.

across southern and eastern Scotland become confined to the

:40:21.:40:26.

Borders and Dumfries and Galloway by this evening. Temperatures will

:40:26.:40:31.

reach 15 or 16 Celsius. During this evening, the rain in the far south

:40:31.:40:34.

will die out to leave a dry night for most with clearer breaks.

:40:34.:40:37.

However, rain will edge into the northwest during the evening,

:40:37.:40:39.

before spreading eastwards across northern parts of the country

:40:39.:40:46.

overnight. It will turn windy with gales in parts of the north. That's

:40:46.:40:49.

it for now - our next update from the newsroom is at 6.50pm. Now it's

:40:49.:40:57.

back to Brian. Thanks, Graham. And so the

:40:57.:40:59.

Conservative conference gets under way this weekend with the slogan

:40:59.:41:04.

"Leadership for a better future". But in Scotland the leadership of

:41:04.:41:07.

the party is currently being contested and the future's none too

:41:07.:41:12.

certain either. Not least because one of the leadership candidates,

:41:12.:41:15.

Murdo Fraser, wants to put an end to the Scottish Tories in their

:41:15.:41:19.

current form and start again with a new centre-right party. Our

:41:19.:41:22.

reporter Hayley Jarvis has been on the campaign trail with all four

:41:22.:41:32.
:41:32.:41:34.

candidates. You have to cast your mind back to 1955 to find a time

:41:34.:41:37.

when the Conservatives had the majority of Scottish seats. Then

:41:37.:41:42.

they were called the Unionist Party, now they have just one MP and 15

:41:42.:41:47.

MSPs. The latest attempt to turn around the party's fortunes, a

:41:47.:41:52.

review, may not have been rock 'n' roll but he recommended there

:41:52.:41:57.

should be an election of the leader of the party. Could this be the

:41:57.:42:02.

man? Not if he has this way? If Murdo Fraser wins, he will replace

:42:02.:42:07.

the party with the new centre-right group. While his supporters in

:42:07.:42:11.

Glasgow think it is a good idea, others are not convinced. I always

:42:11.:42:15.

knew there would be people who would find it difficult to come to

:42:15.:42:18.

terms with the scale of the change I have been proposing. However, if

:42:18.:42:22.

you look at the range of people backing me, we have seven members

:42:22.:42:26.

of the Scottish parliament, nearly 50 elected Conservative councillors,

:42:26.:42:34.

we have Scotland's Conservative MEP, we have Malcolm Rifkind and Lord

:42:34.:42:38.

Tebbit supporting me. People will realise this is not some whimsical

:42:38.:42:43.

fantasy, it is a serious proposal and something that needs to happen

:42:43.:42:46.

if we are going to see a future for centre-right politics across

:42:46.:42:51.

Scotland. With growing opposition to his plans, could the deputy

:42:51.:42:56.

leader have slipped up? Clearly, he has set the agenda in this campaign.

:42:56.:43:00.

I think it is a bold move. I'm not concerned it is a radical move

:43:00.:43:05.

because I don't think the party will change. The vehicle may change

:43:05.:43:11.

but it message will not change, so it is bold rather than radical.

:43:11.:43:16.

Whether that is too bold for the Conservative party - after all, it

:43:16.:43:19.

is a Conservative Party - we will have to see but without that

:43:19.:43:23.

message she would have been the clear favourite to win. This is the

:43:23.:43:27.

first election when party members will decide who becomes leader.

:43:27.:43:32.

Little is known about them except they are rare breed. Membership has

:43:32.:43:39.

fallen by almost half in the last five years to around 8500. We don't

:43:39.:43:43.

know anything about the membership in Scotland. We hear stories that

:43:43.:43:53.
:43:53.:43:56.

most are over 70, most of them are women, most are inactive and so on.

:43:56.:44:01.

Ruth Davidson is trying to find out more about the party members. The

:44:01.:44:05.

32 year-old is a relative newcomer to politics, she became an MSP in

:44:05.:44:10.

May. She has pledged to visit every constituency in Scotland as part of

:44:10.:44:14.

her campaign. Today she is telling voters she will offer generational

:44:14.:44:18.

change within the existing structure of the party. I think in

:44:18.:44:23.

the context of a leadership debate, it is a right that different

:44:23.:44:26.

candidates put out their vision for the future. I think Murdo Fraser is

:44:26.:44:30.

asking the right questions about what we have done poorly in the

:44:30.:44:34.

past, but I am proud to be a Scottish Conservative Unionist and

:44:34.:44:41.

I believe I can build future success for the party going forward.

:44:42.:44:51.
:44:52.:44:54.

52 year-old Jackson -- Jackson Carlaw says the party needs to

:44:54.:44:58.

focus on the issues that matter. think changing the name is a

:44:58.:45:03.

distraction. It is a superficial change that would lead us to be

:45:03.:45:08.

divided for the next 18 months. All the while Alex Salmond will be

:45:08.:45:12.

planning the break-up of the United Kingdom. We have to concentrate on

:45:12.:45:17.

the defence of Scotland's place within the UK, and make sure we are

:45:17.:45:21.

in a fit state to win the referendum. I am not the status quo

:45:21.:45:25.

candidate. I think the party needs to be shaken up. Because my

:45:25.:45:29.

experience reaches back to when we had 23 members of Parliament at

:45:29.:45:33.

Westminster, to when we had a professional organisation, I

:45:33.:45:40.

understand what we need to do. Discuss a torrid -- dissatisfied,

:45:41.:45:50.
:45:51.:45:51.

Margaret Mitchell became a late Want. Was the constitutional issue,

:45:51.:46:01.
:46:01.:46:01.

where they were saying the... That was one issue. More than that, they

:46:01.:46:07.

seem to be arguing about the change of name, a change of party,

:46:07.:46:12.

consulting more with members. Nobody was arguing about people and

:46:12.:46:19.

for me, politics is about people. It is a four horse race. Is the

:46:20.:46:23.

party in danger of veering off course in a contest that was

:46:23.:46:27.

supposed to improve its odds at the ballot box?

:46:27.:46:33.

The big break this morning on that issue of the Conservative

:46:33.:46:39.

leadership, David Mundell, at the Scotland Office joins me. Thanks

:46:39.:46:47.

for joining us. Let's start on your views on the leadership contest.

:46:47.:46:53.

You gave a written guarantee that you wouldn't and agreed in the

:46:53.:46:57.

leadership contest. What has happened? I had hoped that I would

:46:57.:47:02.

be able to stay on neutral ground. If it had been a simple election, I

:47:02.:47:07.

probably would. This is a debate about the entire future of the

:47:07.:47:11.

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. It is about whether people

:47:11.:47:17.

in Scotland will have the chance to vote Conservative. I think if that

:47:17.:47:22.

right is taken away, it is a betrayal of our members and the

:47:22.:47:26.

420,000 people who did vote Conservative at the UK general

:47:26.:47:30.

election. If the new constitution, the new party with a new name, is

:47:31.:47:35.

to go through, it will have been democratically endorsed by the

:47:35.:47:40.

Conservatives in Scotland. Shouldn't you abide by that? As we

:47:40.:47:47.

all know, there is a completely separate process for changing the

:47:47.:47:53.

party than for the leadership. It has been quite unclear during the

:47:53.:47:59.

campaign at how that would be achieved. My understanding was an

:47:59.:48:05.

entirely new party was to be set up. There seems to be some fudging on

:48:05.:48:11.

mat and a transfer of assets being mandated. We don't have a great

:48:11.:48:16.

deal of clarity on that. What my commitment is, to keep the Scottish

:48:16.:48:19.

party and Unionist Party going because I believe voters in

:48:19.:48:23.

Scotland want to have the opportunity to vote for a majority

:48:23.:48:27.

Conservative Government at Westminster. To be clear, if the

:48:27.:48:33.

new party goes ahead, if it is set up in Scotland, it would take the

:48:33.:48:36.

Westminster whip through negotiation. If it is set up, you

:48:36.:48:43.

were saying he would not serve as an MP for that a new party? Again,

:48:43.:48:49.

you are putting a lot of IFS in to that question. Would you serve as

:48:49.:48:54.

an MP under those colours? What I am saying is if I am fortunate to

:48:54.:49:00.

be elected, I will be taking the Conservative whip at Westminster. I

:49:00.:49:03.

would be entering into a coalition negotiations as to whether I should

:49:03.:49:11.

sit on the Conservative benches. is simple. When you are running in

:49:11.:49:16.

that campaign appears elections in 2015, when you ran under the banner

:49:16.:49:21.

of the new party that has been established? -- and will you run?

:49:21.:49:30.

We will have to see if that happens. It is really easy. You are talking

:49:30.:49:38.

about the new party, you are condemn it and prepared to talk

:49:38.:49:41.

about the new existence. Were you run and the new colours in your

:49:42.:49:45.

constituency? I will be standing on the basis that I would be taking

:49:45.:49:50.

the Conservative whip at twisters - - Westminster and hopefully part of

:49:50.:49:54.

the majority Conservative Government implementing a

:49:54.:50:01.

Conservative manifesto. If you won't run under the new colours,

:50:01.:50:06.

they would be entitled to stand against you, wouldn't they? What I

:50:06.:50:10.

think is quite clear is if you do set up a new organisation, people

:50:10.:50:15.

in an existing organisation are not bound to become part of that. They

:50:15.:50:24.

have to make that decision for themselves. I stand in any election

:50:24.:50:30.

on the basis of my record. I stand also as a Conservative. I have

:50:30.:50:35.

always made it clear that I was a Conservative and on each of the

:50:35.:50:38.

occasions, I have managed to increase the Conservative vote in

:50:38.:50:47.

the constituency I am standing in. 2010, general election in Scotland,

:50:47.:50:56.

16.7%. 2011, election constituency, 13.9, list 12.4. That is a Tory

:50:56.:51:00.

record. It hasn't worked wonderfully, has it? Nobody is

:51:00.:51:04.

disputing that. Everybody accepts this election should be about

:51:04.:51:08.

change and radical change. It shouldn't be about destroying what

:51:08.:51:14.

we have. It should be about throwing the baby out with the bath

:51:14.:51:20.

water. Let's build on what we have got, not destroy it. I believe that

:51:20.:51:24.

there is an opportunity to move forward if we have the right

:51:24.:51:28.

leadership, the right policies and divide campaigning style. It is

:51:29.:51:34.

very easy and tempting, given the difficulties, to think that there

:51:34.:51:38.

is a silver bullet. I'm afraid there is not. It is a combination

:51:38.:51:42.

of things. We are setting up a new party and a new name is not one of

:51:42.:51:50.

them. Manchester, the candidates are on route to conference right

:51:50.:51:56.

now. To discuss the election, I am delighted to welcome key supporters.

:51:56.:52:05.

Peter Duncan is here to speak up for Murdo Fraser, Mr Davidson and

:52:05.:52:12.

head off Scottish Ballet, Stephanie. We had it advocate, William Frain-

:52:12.:52:21.

Bell. Thank you for joining us. Duncan, the Commons by a Miss Tim

:52:21.:52:31.
:52:31.:52:52.

It doesn't help when it they say it is the wrong approach. You are

:52:52.:52:59.

trying hard to be specific. He said he wanted to go to Westminster and

:52:59.:53:03.

so the Conservative whip. They would take the Conservative whip

:53:03.:53:08.

and help in the election of a Conservative Prime Minister. That

:53:08.:53:17.

is what our predecessors did. is wrong with that, Stephanie

:53:17.:53:24.

Fraser? It has demonstrated how unclear the proposals are. The

:53:24.:53:30.

confusion. It could be David Mundell but is unclear, not Murdo

:53:30.:53:37.

Fraser. It is unclear how Murdo Fraser is wanting to go. Are we

:53:37.:53:43.

amalgamating all the existing assets and a new name? We are

:53:43.:53:47.

talking about a new party, recognising that the Unionist Party

:53:47.:53:57.
:53:57.:53:58.

has failed to secure the support of 40% of people. He has been Deputy

:53:58.:54:02.

Leader of the party for the last seven years. Surely he has to take

:54:02.:54:08.

responsibility. He knows how bad it is? As I watched him at wriggling

:54:08.:54:14.

like a worm, the only person who is enjoying this is Alex Salmond. He

:54:14.:54:18.

is the Panther that everybody has to beat. To do that, you can't send

:54:18.:54:23.

in an office cat. The have Ruth Davidson who has been in politics

:54:23.:54:28.

for six weeks. I don't know what her politics are. You have Murdo

:54:28.:54:33.

Fraser who will split the party in house and Jackson Carlaw. You think

:54:33.:54:40.

it will split them rather than unite them? I sympathise with Murdo

:54:41.:54:45.

Fraser, he has not got the right solution and the party will split

:54:45.:54:55.

in half. You would not join the new party? If a somebody who believes

:54:55.:55:00.

in democracy, I would go with what the members decide. That is what

:55:00.:55:05.

David Mundell's problem was. If Murdo Fraser wins, he has to do

:55:05.:55:11.

what he has to do. It would split the party. You are looking for

:55:11.:55:18.

somebody it where the party can coalesce around. I have stood

:55:18.:55:25.

against Alex Salmond. What we are facing here, we are handing an open

:55:25.:55:31.

goal to the SNP. We must appear to be united. For what we should be

:55:31.:55:35.

doing, so there focusing up on what the party is going to be culled, we

:55:35.:55:41.

should be focusing on how we get support at a local level. That is

:55:41.:55:47.

what Margaret Mitchell wants to do. Under the current set-up, you stood

:55:47.:55:51.

against Alex Salmond. The present set-up isn't working too well.

:55:51.:55:57.

came second and it was a very good election. There were one or two

:55:57.:56:05.

thirds between ass. May I say that I know about how the SNP works.

:56:05.:56:09.

They have mastered social midi and will continue to do that over the

:56:09.:56:17.

next two or three years. -- Social media. You are saying that the SNP

:56:17.:56:22.

are being successful because they are harnessing new media and new

:56:22.:56:26.

campaigning tools. We have ceased in our party to be an effective

:56:26.:56:33.

campaigning force. Now is the time for a generation change. I hope you

:56:33.:56:37.

are not saying that just because people are all do, that they can't

:56:37.:56:41.

embrace social media. We cannot spend the next few years fighting.

:56:41.:56:49.

We have to show a positive message. The SNP are demonstrating...

:56:49.:56:57.

you say it is the wrong time? statistic gets to the heart of why

:56:57.:57:01.

Alex Salmond would be delighted if Murdo Fraser doesn't win. That is

:57:01.:57:06.

6% of the Scottish electorate see the current Scottish Conservative

:57:06.:57:09.

Unionist Party as putting Scottish interests first. That is less than

:57:10.:57:17.

half of those people that voted. Shouldn't you change your policy

:57:17.:57:22.

and your approach rather than your name? We would have a new party but

:57:22.:57:28.

we would have any policies, new people. You say you don't need a

:57:28.:57:32.

new captain, G need a new ship? They are those that are not part of

:57:32.:57:41.

the party that will see themselves as having a new home. Alex Salmond

:57:41.:57:46.

doesn't care who wins this election. He will not be frightened of any of

:57:46.:57:51.

the candidates. What is needed is not only a new leader, it is going

:57:51.:57:55.

to have to be policy lead. People are going to have to be attracted

:57:55.:57:59.

by the policies regardless of who the leader is. If what about the

:57:59.:58:03.

argument that the brand is so toxic that you can't get an audience for

:58:03.:58:09.

the policies. You can't get by that toxicity in the brand to get a

:58:09.:58:19.
:58:19.:58:22.

hearing at all? All they did was add the words, new, on the front.

:58:22.:58:27.

They changed their policies. They change them at the very core and

:58:27.:58:33.

that has not been addressed by a main candidates. Let's talk about

:58:33.:58:38.

funding. We were talking about assets are shifting to this new

:58:38.:58:46.

party. What about funding of William? Will they be far better?

:58:46.:58:50.

From what the press has been indicating, there are one or two

:58:50.:58:54.

names that have indicated that they will supply money. People are

:58:54.:58:57.

attracted by something new and exciting and would like to be

:58:57.:59:02.

involved in it. If we are talking about funding, we could easily use

:59:02.:59:07.

the same funding. If everybody was working together, we could be using

:59:07.:59:11.

the funding to look at the existing party and working out how we can

:59:11.:59:16.

best use money to use the party that we have at the moment, to take

:59:16.:59:18.

head on some major decisions that are going to be made by the

:59:18.:59:23.

Scottish people in the next few years. I want to know that their

:59:23.:59:26.

money is coming to be effectively spent. They want to know that they

:59:26.:59:30.

are going to see the source. The problem we have had is too many

:59:30.:59:36.

offenders have not seen many -- have seen many them down the toilet.

:59:36.:59:40.

It is not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is

:59:40.:59:44.

about providing an effective plan and saying, if we have your support,

:59:44.:59:49.

this is what we can do. I had been party chairman during elections

:59:49.:59:53.

where we have spent huge amounts of money and they have not seen

:59:53.:59:57.

resorts. The reality is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist

:59:57.:00:01.

Party have failed to secure that massive cent weight vote in

:00:01.:00:10.

Scotland. This new party will be the start of coalescing at this

:00:10.:00:15.

party. If Murdo Fraser wins, then we will have a new party and the

:00:15.:00:22.

membership will endorse that. If he loses, he has said that he will

:00:22.:00:32.
:00:32.:00:34.

remain an enthusiastic supporter. He says there is no future for the

:00:34.:00:39.

party in its present form. It will never succeed in its present form.

:00:39.:00:44.

It must adapt or die. You are saying you remain a member of a

:00:44.:00:53.

party that you say has no future. think the statistics are very clear.

:00:53.:01:00.

We have to vote share. How could you stay there when you think it is

:01:00.:01:09.

the dead party? The cars at the end of the day, I believe in civic

:01:09.:01:14.

responsibility, in enterprise... You have to be honest. If Murdo

:01:14.:01:21.

Fraser wins this, the party will split in half. If Ruth wins this,

:01:21.:01:25.

people will not support her either. We need somebody with experience,

:01:25.:01:31.

gravitas, and that will have to be Jackson Carlaw. When David Cameron

:01:31.:01:38.

stepped forward as a young person... Ruth Davidson has been in

:01:38.:01:43.

Parliament for six weeks! That speaks of the lack of being able to

:01:43.:01:48.

develop any talent in the Conservative Party. If I may, I

:01:48.:01:52.

think it is wrong to penalise the only candidate who has been an

:01:52.:01:59.

elected councillor. She understands local issues. Why should she be

:01:59.:02:05.

penalised? With Davidson has no political experience. We need

:02:05.:02:09.

someone with significant political experience and that is Margaret

:02:09.:02:17.

Mitchell. Margaret Mitchell, to varying degrees, is more at the

:02:17.:02:24.

same. The reality is the ship is going down. He is just turning

:02:24.:02:32.

around saying we are doomed, we need the positives. He are going to

:02:32.:02:37.

have to find a new name! Let's have a look at the list of named the

:02:37.:02:47.
:02:47.:02:59.

That is the list. You are laughing, but you don't fancy any of those?

:02:59.:03:02.

think the Titanic should be the name because it is going down and

:03:02.:03:07.

fast. You don't fancy any of those? I'm not sure it will make any

:03:07.:03:15.

difference. I wasn't sure what is being referred to as the tightening

:03:15.:03:18.

because the Scottish Unionist Party is not sinking, it is in good hands

:03:19.:03:28.
:03:29.:03:30.

and it is going forward. Things will change. People will start...

:03:30.:03:35.

It things will change. A man me tell you why - because over the

:03:35.:03:40.

next few years, people will start having to think about how they will

:03:40.:03:44.

vote in his forthcoming referendum and the Conservative Party is the

:03:44.:03:48.

voice of Unionism. If it is not United, the referendum may well go

:03:48.:03:55.

in favour... N the of those names tickle you? I am a Conservative, my

:03:55.:03:59.

father was a proud conservative, my grandfather was elected as a

:03:59.:04:04.

Unionist, and before him he was elected as a moderate. Naming

:04:04.:04:09.

itself is not a big deal. Your are going to have to choose one.

:04:09.:04:13.

think there are merits in lots of them. Do problem with Murdo

:04:13.:04:18.

Fraser... It is a consultation with the membership and we will make our

:04:18.:04:24.

decision. The you could call yourselves the Jacobites! If you

:04:24.:04:29.

launch a campaign, the premise is that you have to change the party's

:04:29.:04:33.

name that everyone can coalesce around. You can imagine he would be

:04:33.:04:40.

able to tell us what that will be. The name will not involve

:04:40.:04:45.

Conservative and Unionist, we have got to have a new start. What is

:04:45.:04:52.

wrong with Conservatives or unionists? C X the scent of the

:04:52.:04:56.

Scottish electorate see us as putting Scotland's interests first

:04:56.:05:06.

and that has got to change. It is not a problem with the name.

:05:06.:05:11.

you have been trying to tweak policies for ages. I remember some

:05:11.:05:16.

very esteemed figures in our party. In 1997 the Strathclyde Commission

:05:16.:05:21.

saying if we get the policies right things will change, and they

:05:21.:05:27.

haven't. Particularly when Ruth Davidson says give it 10 years...

:05:27.:05:33.

There are briefly. This new party will have new policies as well. We

:05:33.:05:38.

are thinking about bosses now, policies that help local people at

:05:38.:05:45.

a local level. Thanks to all your contributions from all four of you.

:05:45.:05:55.

I am not sure about the name. Jacobites.

:05:55.:05:59.

Coming up later in the programme - 40 years on, the legacy of the UCS

:05:59.:06:05.

sit-in. People sent people from all over the world to look at it and it

:06:05.:06:10.

was very inspiring and positive. There are almost 18,000 crofts in

:06:10.:06:16.

Scotland, stretching from Shetland to Argyll. This unique system of

:06:16.:06:18.

small-scale, part-time agriculture holdings has helped support rural

:06:18.:06:20.

populations for centuries. And this weekend new legislation comes in,

:06:20.:06:24.

aimed at making modern crofting more viable. But problems with

:06:24.:06:26.

absentee crofters, land speculation, neglect and a declining population

:06:26.:06:33.

of young people, pose formidable challenges for its future. This

:06:33.:06:42.

report from Angus Macdonald in Stornoway. This part of the area

:06:42.:06:46.

was involved in some land agitation in the 19th century, and what

:06:46.:06:52.

became known later as the Agnes riot. The relationship between

:06:52.:06:59.

crofters and legislators is still uneasy. The crofting Act of 2010 is

:06:59.:07:08.

still being treated by crofters with a degree of suspicion.

:07:08.:07:14.

Legislation alone will not protect crofting. They are good part to the

:07:14.:07:18.

legislation, parts that are not so good, and parts that are wholly

:07:19.:07:27.

untested. Crofting has been part of the area for centuries. There are

:07:27.:07:33.

over 18,000 crofts. The income is so small that other employment is

:07:33.:07:37.

essential. Governments have tried to give crofting a viable future

:07:37.:07:42.

but the problems are difficult. Speculation in croft land, absentee

:07:42.:07:46.

tenants and misuse of the land itself. Last year's crofting Reform

:07:46.:07:53.

Act changed the ruling body, enabling crofters to elect their

:07:53.:08:03.
:08:03.:08:04.

own representatives. It's disappointing the development rule

:08:04.:08:11.

has gone from the commission, and if it becomes a bit part of another

:08:11.:08:15.

agency, crofting will lose out. Stornoway the legal profession is

:08:15.:08:20.

about as close as you can get to being expert in crofting law. They

:08:20.:08:25.

are waiting in particular to see what effect it will have on

:08:25.:08:32.

crofting land. A I'm not aware there it is damping down, the

:08:32.:08:39.

market, in terms of the clawback. There seems to be an interest in

:08:39.:08:42.

crofting from young people, and in interest in still building croft

:08:42.:08:47.

houses. There has done been any noticeable change in the area. --

:08:47.:08:57.
:08:57.:08:58.

not been. There was also pressure to rule out absentee crofters.

:08:58.:09:05.

to me it is not the death of crofting. Neglect is a big one.

:09:05.:09:09.

They're very good reasons for absenteeism, there is no reason for

:09:09.:09:14.

neglect. There have been mistakes you read about in the press, but

:09:14.:09:21.

generally they have been very clear about it. If they can put up a good

:09:21.:09:26.

case, they will look at it sympathetically. Crofting has lost

:09:26.:09:30.

out because people have been forced off the land, forced to make a

:09:30.:09:34.

career for themselves and their families, many of whom have

:09:34.:09:38.

returned. Without these people returning in generations past, we

:09:38.:09:45.

would not have crofting today. The most important thing is that

:09:45.:09:51.

whoever has to croft, they ensure the whole thing is in the interests

:09:51.:09:56.

of the community. What of the most controversial provisions branded by

:09:56.:10:01.

the council as a snoopers charter, is the responsibility placed on

:10:02.:10:11.
:10:12.:10:17.

gracing committees and clerks to act against those who misuse their

:10:17.:10:27.

crofts. The Clarke must be inspired with enough confidence to make sure

:10:27.:10:34.

he fulfils his role. Their perception may totally differ, and

:10:34.:10:41.

no matter how conscientious one is, they will make enemies along the

:10:41.:10:45.

road. What is more important - to live peacefully with your neighbour

:10:45.:10:49.

or seemed to be carrying out a bit of legislation that is not

:10:49.:10:53.

necessarily what crofting needs. This is the latest attempt to make

:10:53.:10:57.

crofting a viable system but an ongoing conspiracy between the

:10:57.:11:07.
:11:07.:11:07.

forces of a maternity leave the future of crofting unclear.

:11:07.:11:09.

I'm joined now from Aberdeen by Stewart Stevenson, the Environment

:11:09.:11:18.

Minister. Hearing there about issues in the legislation, detailed

:11:18.:11:22.

issues in crofting. Let me start in a more fundamental way - what do

:11:22.:11:27.

you see as the purpose of crofting in modern Scotland? It does date

:11:27.:11:36.

back to the clearances in the Victorian times which were a blight

:11:36.:11:40.

upon the north and west of Scotland. The original legislation in

:11:40.:11:44.

Victorian times was the first attempt to make sure that people

:11:44.:11:48.

had the right to remain on their land and to live in their

:11:48.:11:54.

communities, and have the access to resources. That is restated in the

:11:54.:11:58.

2010 legislation, that it is about keeping people on the land and

:11:59.:12:03.

making sure the land upon which they lived is in a fit and proper

:12:03.:12:10.

state. Do you still think there is that practical role, or is it a

:12:10.:12:15.

product of history and sentiment? There is a very practical role

:12:15.:12:22.

indeed. We must remember that much of our countryside depends on the

:12:22.:12:26.

stewardship that we exercised over it as crofters, as farmers, as

:12:26.:12:36.
:12:36.:12:38.

people who visit the countryside. Creating the landscape, creating

:12:38.:12:42.

the wonderful environment that so many visitors come to, that much of

:12:42.:12:52.
:12:52.:12:52.

the world admires. The legislation in 1993, and 2010, it is feared to

:12:52.:12:56.

sustaining these remote and vulnerable communities. I'm sure we

:12:56.:12:59.

can make significant contribution through this new piece of

:12:59.:13:06.

legislation. What about the fears are that there will be a

:13:06.:13:15.

detrimental result in transferring development money? The crofting

:13:15.:13:19.

Commission, which will prove to be a predominantly elected body, will

:13:19.:13:25.

be a strong champion to work with Highlands and Islands Enterprise.

:13:25.:13:30.

The commission themselves will not have the money, it will be

:13:30.:13:35.

transferred to others. Yes, but H I eat is a body that represents the

:13:35.:13:40.

interests of the islands and it is demonstrated by the economic

:13:40.:13:44.

development we have seen, the powerhouse in many ways in

:13:44.:13:49.

Scotland's economy, the benefits of long running engagement and

:13:49.:13:52.

investment in our communities, that will not change. On the contrary,

:13:52.:13:56.

the work they will be doing with the crofting Commission and

:13:56.:13:59.

individual crofters will be integrated with wider development.

:13:59.:14:03.

The concern might be that the development continues in the

:14:03.:14:08.

Inverness region, and perhaps the crofting lands themselves more

:14:08.:14:13.

remote don't get the money they got in the past. No, that is not the

:14:13.:14:18.

case. We are powering through democratic accountability in the

:14:18.:14:23.

crofting Commission, but also the rolling of the grazing committees

:14:23.:14:27.

are renounced so there is local engagement in what is going on. It

:14:27.:14:32.

is very clear we will understand exactly what is required in the way

:14:32.:14:35.

of investment, financial and practical support to crofting

:14:35.:14:39.

communities. There is a future for crofting that is important to

:14:39.:14:45.

Scotland. You mentioned the grazing committees. We heard that their

:14:45.:14:50.

concern, something that it could be a snoopers charter unless it is

:14:50.:14:58.

properly organised. People were very concerned about absentee

:14:58.:15:02.

crofters. I think we are delivering the power to make sure the crofting

:15:02.:15:06.

Commission is aware of what requires to be done. We do need

:15:06.:15:11.

local people on the ground. The grazing Committee is a vital part

:15:11.:15:14.

of ensuring we link local to the crofting Commission. But if they

:15:14.:15:22.

are to do their work properly, isn't there a concern one neighbour

:15:22.:15:27.

will grass upon another if they feel they are absent too much?

:15:27.:15:29.

is about information being available to the crofting

:15:29.:15:33.

Commission. When information is available, when the crofting

:15:33.:15:37.

Commission can take the action that supports the overwhelming majority

:15:37.:15:43.

of people who responded to the report, saying that we needed more

:15:43.:15:47.

people resonant, saying that we needed better standards of

:15:47.:15:50.

stewardship over the crofts. former Pakistani president, Pervez

:15:50.:15:53.

Musharaf, visited Scotland this week. The exiled general ruled

:15:53.:15:58.

Pakistan for nine years until 2008, before fleeing to the UK. General

:15:58.:16:01.

Musharraf is wanted by an anti- terrorist court in Pakistan over

:16:01.:16:03.

accusations he failed to protect the former Prime Minister, Benazir

:16:03.:16:09.

Bhutto, from assassination in December 2007. He describes the

:16:09.:16:12.

case against him as "baseless" and politically driven and plans to

:16:12.:16:17.

return to Pakistan within the next six months. My colleague, Glenn

:16:17.:16:27.
:16:27.:16:30.

Campbell caught up with him in In 2009, Gordon Brown, said that

:16:30.:16:34.

two-thirds or three-quarters of all terrorist plots in Britain

:16:34.:16:38.

originated all were linked to patterns -- Pakistan. Why is that?

:16:38.:16:44.

I agree that many of the plots, the people had some link with the

:16:45.:16:51.

Pakistan. They were born and bred here so one should take

:16:51.:16:57.

responsibility here. Roof why are the terrorists when they were born

:16:58.:17:07.
:17:08.:17:09.

and bred here? Because of the turmoil in Pakistan and Afghanistan,

:17:09.:17:16.

they found safe haven where they could train and get some resources

:17:16.:17:23.

may be, through whatever resources were going to the Taliban.

:17:23.:17:26.

understand why radical Islam is attractive to some people,

:17:26.:17:33.

particularly young Muslim men in this country? We need to understand

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:45.

the causes. The root causes are poverty in Afghanistan. The Shi'ite

:17:45.:17:51.

bombers, they are cases of poverty and illiteracy. They are told that

:17:51.:17:58.

if they blow themselves up, they go to heaven. He thinks this is true

:17:58.:18:04.

and he is miserable here. He is going to live a very wonderful life

:18:04.:18:11.

in the next world. He is a literate enough to not understand this. The

:18:11.:18:20.

people here are not poor and illiterate. That is a political

:18:20.:18:27.

turmoil. Since after the Second World War, every political issue

:18:27.:18:31.

has Muslim connections, Muslim countries are involved. In each one

:18:31.:18:38.

of them, Muslim countries are on the receiving end. Palestine, no

:18:38.:18:48.
:18:48.:18:49.

resolution. Kashmir, no resolution. Their implementation, then come

:18:49.:18:57.

Bosnia and Chechnya. No independence to Chechnya. Estonia,

:18:57.:19:03.

Lithuania, all three can bind of one-tenth of Chechnya that they get

:19:03.:19:10.

their independence, not Chechnya. There is anger, frustration.

:19:10.:19:20.

Political disputes, Muslims being alienated, Muslims suffering,

:19:20.:19:24.

therefore it is these political disputes. Also poverty and

:19:24.:19:31.

illiteracy which causes the problems. What Maud -- what more

:19:31.:19:37.

could you country do to help support stability in Pakistan and

:19:37.:19:42.

help the economy picked up there? think there are a lot of Pakistanis

:19:42.:19:51.

who do well here. I must say to the credit of Scotland, the Pakistani

:19:51.:19:56.

people are Upwood -- upwardly mobile, much more than the rest of

:19:56.:20:04.

England. I think they some -- should contribute more in

:20:04.:20:10.

moderation, promote tolerance here and then maybe, if they want to

:20:10.:20:18.

help, economic assistance in Pakistan. Investment in Pakistan.

:20:18.:20:23.

Many investors are taking their money out right now. That is

:20:23.:20:27.

because of lack of confidence in the Government, lack of trust in

:20:27.:20:37.
:20:37.:20:39.

the Government. The dollar exchange rate has gone from -- gone down in

:20:39.:20:44.

so many years. Many Pakistani scalds have become involved in the

:20:44.:20:54.

domestic politics of the country. - - Scots. Some weather -- someone to

:20:54.:20:59.

know whether we should be independent of the UK. Do you have

:20:59.:21:04.

a comment on that? No, I would not like to comment. All over the world,

:21:04.:21:11.

there is nationalism and it is a strong force. It is exerting

:21:11.:21:17.

everywhere. Czechoslovak feet -- Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic,

:21:17.:21:24.

French speaking, English-speaking, I wouldn't like to comment. If you

:21:24.:21:31.

were back running Pakistan, would it matter to you if the UK remained

:21:31.:21:36.

intact or indeed if it Scotland became independent? Never thought

:21:36.:21:44.

of it frankly. We are dealing with the United Kingdom. Thank you very

:21:45.:21:52.

much indeed. From that back to Scottish matters. Do you remember

:21:52.:21:59.

the UCS working? It is 40 years since the workers, Reid and Airlie,

:21:59.:22:03.

occupied the shipbuilders in protests. Veterans have been

:22:03.:22:08.

marking the anniversary with a gala concert at the Mitchell Theatre in

:22:08.:22:14.

Glasgow. In a moment, we will look at the legacy of UCS. Gilly

:22:14.:22:20.

Mathieson has been talking to those that helped save the shipping

:22:20.:22:30.
:22:30.:22:31.

It was an all-star cast as veterans and their supporters celebrated 40

:22:31.:22:34.

years of the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work in. The artists

:22:34.:22:43.

included some who played in fund- raising concerts at the time. The

:22:43.:22:48.

working was called in 19 centre one when the Conservative Government,

:22:48.:22:54.

led by Sir Edward Heath, refused to give ECS a subsidy to save the

:22:54.:22:58.

shipyards from being closed. For the workers, action was taken to

:22:58.:23:07.

protect their jobs. As soon as the concept of a work in, not a

:23:07.:23:11.

traditional strike or sit in the was conceived, momentum grew and

:23:11.:23:15.

everybody knew that there was something different about the

:23:15.:23:25.
:23:25.:23:27.

activity. Particularly being led by a Jimmy Reid and Jimmy air Lee, we

:23:27.:23:34.

knew that they were exceptional leaders. We should reverse the

:23:34.:23:42.

whole plan. They went on building and I came and supported them. We

:23:42.:23:47.

were in opposition at that time. Harold Wilson was nervous but he

:23:47.:23:51.

went up to Glasgow. He was convinced by what was being done.

:23:52.:23:56.

The Government was faced with harsh economic times and their plan was

:23:56.:24:00.

to rein in Government intervention in the economy in an effort to

:24:00.:24:08.

break with the socialist policies of the 1960s. The mood of Britain

:24:08.:24:11.

was for somebody to stand up to a reaction in Government. It did

:24:11.:24:18.

capture the attention of the whole of Britain in supporting Mez.

:24:18.:24:23.

Footballers, you could actually get into the Citizens Theatre with your

:24:23.:24:32.

union card. The campaign continued to gather momentum. We had the

:24:32.:24:38.

Marxist and the ministers, everyone in the team, churches, schools,

:24:38.:24:44.

supporting the UCS. They paid the workers who were not working and

:24:44.:24:53.

that support lasted. The most memorable moment I had was the day

:24:53.:25:00.

they organised the march from the yard to Glasgow. The Yard's turned

:25:00.:25:09.

out and it was great. The humour in the yard was marvellous. People

:25:09.:25:16.

didn't let the situation get them down. Getting their message across

:25:16.:25:20.

was crucial for the UCS who were competing with the Government press

:25:21.:25:26.

machine. For my part, the Government miss read the situation

:25:26.:25:32.

and thought that they had the upper hand by controlling the tabloids

:25:32.:25:39.

and the broadsheets. The guys immediately recognised that it is a

:25:39.:25:45.

new type of campaign. We decided we would be as good at the media as

:25:45.:25:53.

those guys. Having Jimmy Reid as an Auditor, it was wonderful. We are

:25:53.:25:57.

going to fight this and we are going to fight it with

:25:57.:26:01.

determination. In 1972, but Government backed down and history

:26:01.:26:07.

was made. It helped change minds because we could have gone ahead

:26:07.:26:12.

after the receivership and sheet down industry. They didn't do that

:26:12.:26:15.

because workers were saying that they weren't going to resist what

:26:15.:26:21.

was going on, they were going to work on. Demanding the right to

:26:21.:26:27.

work. There was a powerful message at the time. -- but that was.

:26:28.:26:32.

Veterans here is still have a message they want to pass on. Many

:26:33.:26:39.

feel the UCS has been airbrushed from history. They say this piece

:26:39.:26:43.

of social and industrial history must never be forgotten.

:26:43.:26:49.

Is it just history always fair and lasting legacy? With me is

:26:49.:26:53.

Professor Tom Devine and the actress, Elaine C Smith. You were

:26:53.:26:57.

taking part in that concert last night. What was your role? I had

:26:57.:27:07.
:27:07.:27:13.

the honour of reading the famous Rat race address. When it was said

:27:13.:27:18.

initially, I thought, oh yes. It was a woman's voice reading it and

:27:19.:27:24.

it took it out of the smoke-filled rooms and the old fashioned Labour

:27:24.:27:29.

politics. Also, it could have been written up this morning. That is

:27:29.:27:33.

what struck me, given where we are in the recession, given the people

:27:33.:27:38.

that have been put out of work. The relevance and the vision, that is

:27:38.:27:43.

what the whole celebration is about. You are far too young to remember

:27:43.:27:52.

it directly, what is the reminiscence for you? It was men

:27:52.:28:01.

like my dad and my ankles. I came from a working-class background. --

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:15.

Mike uncles. They were all part of that industry. It was here, that

:28:15.:28:21.

the level of intellectualism that was involved, hearing how an

:28:21.:28:25.

ordinary working-class man spoke with such fission, those images of

:28:25.:28:32.

the men running out of the gates. It was so huge. What did this mean?

:28:32.:28:40.

It formed my own ideas of politics. Tom, what did it mean? Is it just a

:28:40.:28:44.

historical event these days? It was in the short run an enormous

:28:44.:28:50.

victory against the Government which is unusual. Lot of the venues

:28:50.:29:00.
:29:00.:29:04.

have been propound as humanity over many sources. We are not far away

:29:04.:29:08.

from the context that we have had today in that period. The other

:29:09.:29:16.

thing that strikes me, the world that we have lost, people like read

:29:16.:29:20.

it work self educated. He left school at 14 and taught himself.

:29:21.:29:23.

The hidden background is the Communist Party, of which the

:29:23.:29:30.

leaders were members, made sure that they were well educated. I

:29:30.:29:33.

wonder whether that great tradition, that great cultural that tradition

:29:33.:29:41.

as apt. The Communist Party was in financial -- influential in those

:29:41.:29:50.

days. The fascinating thing is that has passed away. In no way did that

:29:50.:30:00.
:30:00.:30:05.

leadership overtly state that the human factor was more important

:30:05.:30:13.

than capital. Elaine, the legacy? You only have to listen to Ed

:30:13.:30:21.

Miliband's speech, but you see that there is a desire, a desire to

:30:22.:30:26.

harness capitalism and say, there is another way her. It is not that

:30:26.:30:31.

I am a supporter but that attempt at a different sort of discussion,

:30:31.:30:39.

it came to me. Everything you say about morality, humanity and other

:30:39.:30:49.
:30:49.:30:49.

things, it is more about that. We have lost that. It is not a

:30:49.:30:54.

romantic legacy, we were not looking back thinking we should be

:30:54.:31:00.

in the shipyards again, it has redefined we are. Tom, there was a

:31:00.:31:06.

degree of support for UCS. We have pending strikes likely in the

:31:06.:31:13.

public sector in the UK at the moment. Is that degree of sympathy

:31:13.:31:18.

likely to be there in those strikes? It is not possible to tell

:31:18.:31:22.

yet because this is still to happen. The scenario is not significantly

:31:23.:31:28.

different to what it was then. If there is a lesson from the UCAS are

:31:28.:31:32.

working, it is not to be sectional or sectarian in the trade unions

:31:32.:31:35.

sense. They have to guard and support from all parts of the

:31:35.:31:41.

committee if they are going to be successful. They will be easily

:31:41.:31:46.

targeted otherwise by other sources of authority. That is a great.

:31:46.:31:52.

Because if you go down that old fashioned route, it puts people off.

:31:52.:31:57.

Ordinary workers are going, how does this reply -- relate to me?

:31:57.:32:02.

That disconnection between ordinary people. If the newspapers have the

:32:03.:32:09.

ability to say that anybody there goes on strike is evil, we have to

:32:09.:32:13.

say that we are those people wanting to live differently and

:32:13.:32:20.

this is unjust and unfair. That connect is important. The trade

:32:20.:32:26.

unions are in the period then had a terrible repetition because they

:32:26.:32:33.

had been three years of union discontent. This is why this idea

:32:33.:32:39.

of working to save the yards, the working was so innovative and

:32:39.:32:44.

successful. One of the things in the current situation, if some

:32:44.:32:50.

visionary could come up with something as a formula, they could

:32:50.:32:58.

be onto a winner. I detect a lot of anger, a lot of anger because the

:32:58.:33:02.

Elise, the bankers, the politicians and other elites can have betrayed

:33:02.:33:12.

-- have behaved badly. Isn't there a desperate anger, or rather that

:33:12.:33:20.

that -- that the angle was particular? The difficulty is these

:33:20.:33:26.

discontents are so widely spread. It is possible to play one group

:33:26.:33:30.

off against another. They will be a tougher challenge than it was with

:33:30.:33:35.

that particular period. The other thing is to sentimentalise, which

:33:35.:33:42.

is wrong, the period of the colics. There are no two yards in the Clyde

:33:42.:33:47.

which would not be there except for the working. You are adamant about

:33:47.:33:53.

that? Let's face it, that all economy disappeared a few years

:33:53.:33:58.

later. There's no doubt the Conservative Party learnt a lesson

:33:58.:34:04.

from that. We have to be hard on this group. Ironically, you could

:34:04.:34:14.
:34:14.:34:16.

see that the success spawned the Was this a Scottish phenomenon?

:34:16.:34:22.

had global route. Tony Benn spoke last night about the little boy who

:34:22.:34:27.

gets stuck down the well, and the local community put a rope down. It

:34:27.:34:31.

is not long enough, they get a longer one and it is not long

:34:31.:34:38.

enough. The boy shouts "tie them all together". It is simplistic,

:34:38.:34:48.

but it is important. Many intellectuals are trying to harness

:34:48.:34:55.

the different ideas to say There is another way. Thanks to both of you.

:34:56.:35:00.

Unfortunately we are out of time. That is all for the Politics Show

:35:00.:35:04.

this week. Raymond be can and will be standing in at the same time

:35:04.:35:12.

next week. I will be going to Manchester to see how the candidate

:35:12.:35:22.
:35:22.:35:22.

targeted on. -- the candidates are getting on. When it comes to

:35:22.:35:31.

support, Ed Miliband was in pretty powerful company. It added to

:35:31.:35:35.

everyone, but when a politician's gaffe is caught on camera, it is

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:35:50.

embarrassing. You want me to recite it? I can't. Whose idea was that?

:35:50.:35:55.

Be honest, who didn't feel for the Labour leader when our

:35:55.:35:59.

correspondent asked in this question. Can you name the three of

:35:59.:36:06.

them? Yes, as I say, though this Tom howls, Joanne Lamont and a

:36:06.:36:12.

third candidate who is also putting himself forward. The front-runner,

:36:12.:36:18.

Ken Mackintosh. The front-runner but you can't name him? He is an

:36:18.:36:24.

excellent candidate. That third candidate laughed it off publicly.

:36:24.:36:28.

I forget the names of my kids most of the time so it shows politicians

:36:28.:36:38.
:36:38.:36:39.

are human. Baroness Warsi was given the same challenge for the Tories.

:36:39.:36:46.

Can you name them? We have Murdo Fraser, Jackson Carlaw, Ruth

:36:46.:36:51.

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS