02/10/2011 The Politics Show Scotland

In Scotland, the Tories are fretting over whether they need a

new party. Their only MP says "not in my name".

We'll speak to David Mundell. And 40 years on, we'll reflect on the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1839 seconds

There are serious issues for us to deal with as a country and we are

getting to grips with those. think a lot of people listening to

you today will say they don't seem to get it. It sounds

extraordinarily complacent. The plan is not working. The deficit is

rising, not falling. If you can say it is to for now but the deficit is

not falling, we have had an evaluation, a balance of trade,

worse - nothing shows the economy is going right. A lot of people

listening to you today, with due respect, will be thinking if that

the only answer they have to this debt crisis is to say let's borrow

a bit more, they will say thank God the government has changed. Thank

God for the future of this country and the future of our children that

we have a government show leadership and taking control for a

better future. Disappointed you didn't fall into the trap of Tory

leadership in Scotland. We have heard today about plans to

reinvigorate the right to buy it in part help boost the economy. Will

Labour back it today? We will be joined by the shadow business

secretary. Do you support the plans? We did keep the right to buy

it in place when we were in government but we get a balance

whether discount wasn't too high that we lost too many homes we

couldn't replace. One of the pirate is for me would be putting a tax on

the banks and putting that money into building social housing, which

is needed today to help create jobs and boost the economy. When it may

ask you about a policy, which is that you will not be able to take

an unfair dismissal case against an employer if you haven't worked for

them for two years. At the moment it is one years. I think two things.

I don't see the pressing need to make life worse for people that

work in that way, but the government itself thinks that will

make 3000 cases difference in a whole year. If anybody wants to

tell me or you that growth in this country is being held back

massively by 3000 tribunal places, I think they are wrong. Secondly it,

there are massive frustrations about the way the tribunal system

works. Let me just interrupt. You said you don't see the need for

this to change, isn't the Government seeing the pressing need

of employers? Yes, they are, and employers have got a fair case that

each year cases go through the tribunal system that cost employers

a lot of money. What you should do is sort out the way the tribunal

system operates, make sure people can't push and vexatious case for

ages, make sure cases in tribunals are not dropped because the

listings have gone wrong, sort of the system, and then you can deal

with the legitimate claims of employers without removing the

rights of what are usually, a amongst the lowest paid and

vulnerable people in the country. That government would argue they

are trying to change something fundamentally on the supply side -

deregulation, cutting corporation tax, reviewing planning laws. Do

you agree with any of those? Planning laws - last year they

changed the planning system so today we have 200,000 less planning

permissions for homes in this country than we had one year ago.

If they had non-dom not, they wouldn't have made the situation

work. They have put the planning system into chaos. They are now

locked into an increasingly abusive debate with the National Trust and

so on about building on good countryside when one year ago they

had 200,000 more planning permissions, most of which were on

brownfield sites so they have made things worse. Nothing they're doing

will change this. They are cutting the deficit to far and too fast,

which is harming economic growth. We have the lowest of any G7

country last year, apart from the earthquake hit Japan. Get that

right, cut VAT, encourage businesses to take on more people

by cutting National Insurance, and let's get the economy moving.

moment we will be speaking to three Conservative MPs about their hopes

for the week ahead. First, the Politics Show near you.

Good afternoon and welcome to the Politics Show Scotland. On the

programme today: As the Tory faithful gather in Manchester,

their only Scottish MP and government minister ups the stakes

in the leadership campaign. Murdo Fraser's proposal for a new

party is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is a step too far,

it is about destroying and not building on what we have got.

the Tories need a new name in Scotland - indeed a new set-up

altogether? We'll ask four leadership supporters if the

party's over. And back to the croft. The crofting

lifestyle has survived for centuries, passed down through

families. But for how much longer? Will new legislation help or hinder

the next generation of crofters? And coming up later: I must say to

the creditor of Scotland, I think they are upwardly mobile, much more

than the rest of England, I would say. General Pervez Musharraf on

boosting Pakistan's economy, the threat of terrorism, and Scottish

independence. And 40 years on from the UCS sit-in,

we ask what is its lasting legacy? But first, here's Graham Stewart

with the news. Scotland's only Conservative

government minister has condemned plans to disband the party north of

the border. David Mundell's comments come on the first day of

the Tory conference in Manchester. Meanwhile, the Prime Minister has

said he expects all the pro-union parties to join forces to oppose

independence for Scotland. From Manchester, our political

correspondent Tim Reid. Among Scottish Tories here this week,

there is one item for discussion and that is the leadership. All

four candidate will be putting out their ideas tomorrow, but Murdo

Fraser has an idea to form a new party which has been dismissed by

all of his rivals. Today, an intervention from Scotland's only

Tory minister. I am backing Ruth Davidson in this election, not just

because she will keep the Conservative Party in Scotland but

because I believe she has the best chance of attracting new people to

vote for the party. She has the energy and leadership skills to

take us forward. Whilst the Prime Minister wants all those opposed to

independence to join forces against the SNP, Annabel Goldie will today

say she wants Alex Salmond to call that a date for the referendum.

Scotland's elimination from the Rugby World Cup was confirmed this

morning as Argentina beat Georgia. It means that for the first time

ever, the Scots have failed to make the quarter finals. But the head

coach Andy Robinson says he has no intention of quitting. I have a

contract until 2015 and I have the desire to still coached Scotland.

The way the players have gone about this tournament, the enthusiasm

they have has fuelled my desire even more to create a successful

Scotland team. Almost 10,000 runners are braving

the elements to take part in the Great Edinburgh run today. This

year sees the biggest ever programme of events, with the

addition of a new 5k course, alongside the existing 10k run. The

race starts and finishes in Holyrood park and amongst those

taking part are the reigning Olympic, 3,000 metres steeplechase

champion, Brimin Kipruto and last year's Commonwealth Games marathon

winner, John Kelai. And the forecast this afternoon will turn

bright with sunny spells for most, as the outbreaks of patchy rain

across southern and eastern Scotland become confined to the

Borders and Dumfries and Galloway by this evening. Temperatures will

reach 15 or 16 Celsius. During this evening, the rain in the far south

will die out to leave a dry night for most with clearer breaks.

However, rain will edge into the northwest during the evening,

before spreading eastwards across northern parts of the country

overnight. It will turn windy with gales in parts of the north. That's

it for now - our next update from the newsroom is at 6.50pm. Now it's

back to Brian. Thanks, Graham. And so the

Conservative conference gets under way this weekend with the slogan

"Leadership for a better future". But in Scotland the leadership of

the party is currently being contested and the future's none too

certain either. Not least because one of the leadership candidates,

Murdo Fraser, wants to put an end to the Scottish Tories in their

current form and start again with a new centre-right party. Our

reporter Hayley Jarvis has been on the campaign trail with all four

candidates. You have to cast your mind back to 1955 to find a time

when the Conservatives had the majority of Scottish seats. Then

they were called the Unionist Party, now they have just one MP and 15

MSPs. The latest attempt to turn around the party's fortunes, a

review, may not have been rock 'n' roll but he recommended there

should be an election of the leader of the party. Could this be the

man? Not if he has this way? If Murdo Fraser wins, he will replace

the party with the new centre-right group. While his supporters in

Glasgow think it is a good idea, others are not convinced. I always

knew there would be people who would find it difficult to come to

terms with the scale of the change I have been proposing. However, if

you look at the range of people backing me, we have seven members

of the Scottish parliament, nearly 50 elected Conservative councillors,

we have Scotland's Conservative MEP, we have Malcolm Rifkind and Lord

Tebbit supporting me. People will realise this is not some whimsical

fantasy, it is a serious proposal and something that needs to happen

if we are going to see a future for centre-right politics across

Scotland. With growing opposition to his plans, could the deputy

leader have slipped up? Clearly, he has set the agenda in this campaign.

I think it is a bold move. I'm not concerned it is a radical move

because I don't think the party will change. The vehicle may change

but it message will not change, so it is bold rather than radical.

Whether that is too bold for the Conservative party - after all, it

is a Conservative Party - we will have to see but without that

message she would have been the clear favourite to win. This is the

first election when party members will decide who becomes leader.

Little is known about them except they are rare breed. Membership has

fallen by almost half in the last five years to around 8500. We don't

know anything about the membership in Scotland. We hear stories that

most are over 70, most of them are women, most are inactive and so on.

Ruth Davidson is trying to find out more about the party members. The

32 year-old is a relative newcomer to politics, she became an MSP in

May. She has pledged to visit every constituency in Scotland as part of

her campaign. Today she is telling voters she will offer generational

change within the existing structure of the party. I think in

the context of a leadership debate, it is a right that different

candidates put out their vision for the future. I think Murdo Fraser is

asking the right questions about what we have done poorly in the

past, but I am proud to be a Scottish Conservative Unionist and

I believe I can build future success for the party going forward.

52 year-old Jackson -- Jackson Carlaw says the party needs to

focus on the issues that matter. think changing the name is a

distraction. It is a superficial change that would lead us to be

divided for the next 18 months. All the while Alex Salmond will be

planning the break-up of the United Kingdom. We have to concentrate on

the defence of Scotland's place within the UK, and make sure we are

in a fit state to win the referendum. I am not the status quo

candidate. I think the party needs to be shaken up. Because my

experience reaches back to when we had 23 members of Parliament at

Westminster, to when we had a professional organisation, I

understand what we need to do. Discuss a torrid -- dissatisfied,

Margaret Mitchell became a late Want. Was the constitutional issue,

where they were saying the... That was one issue. More than that, they

seem to be arguing about the change of name, a change of party,

consulting more with members. Nobody was arguing about people and

for me, politics is about people. It is a four horse race. Is the

party in danger of veering off course in a contest that was

supposed to improve its odds at the ballot box?

The big break this morning on that issue of the Conservative

leadership, David Mundell, at the Scotland Office joins me. Thanks

for joining us. Let's start on your views on the leadership contest.

You gave a written guarantee that you wouldn't and agreed in the

leadership contest. What has happened? I had hoped that I would

be able to stay on neutral ground. If it had been a simple election, I

probably would. This is a debate about the entire future of the

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. It is about whether people

in Scotland will have the chance to vote Conservative. I think if that

right is taken away, it is a betrayal of our members and the

420,000 people who did vote Conservative at the UK general

election. If the new constitution, the new party with a new name, is

to go through, it will have been democratically endorsed by the

Conservatives in Scotland. Shouldn't you abide by that? As we

all know, there is a completely separate process for changing the

party than for the leadership. It has been quite unclear during the

campaign at how that would be achieved. My understanding was an

entirely new party was to be set up. There seems to be some fudging on

mat and a transfer of assets being mandated. We don't have a great

deal of clarity on that. What my commitment is, to keep the Scottish

party and Unionist Party going because I believe voters in

Scotland want to have the opportunity to vote for a majority

Conservative Government at Westminster. To be clear, if the

new party goes ahead, if it is set up in Scotland, it would take the

Westminster whip through negotiation. If it is set up, you

were saying he would not serve as an MP for that a new party? Again,

you are putting a lot of IFS in to that question. Would you serve as

an MP under those colours? What I am saying is if I am fortunate to

be elected, I will be taking the Conservative whip at Westminster. I

would be entering into a coalition negotiations as to whether I should

sit on the Conservative benches. is simple. When you are running in

that campaign appears elections in 2015, when you ran under the banner

of the new party that has been established? -- and will you run?

We will have to see if that happens. It is really easy. You are talking

about the new party, you are condemn it and prepared to talk

about the new existence. Were you run and the new colours in your

constituency? I will be standing on the basis that I would be taking

the Conservative whip at twisters - - Westminster and hopefully part of

the majority Conservative Government implementing a

Conservative manifesto. If you won't run under the new colours,

they would be entitled to stand against you, wouldn't they? What I

think is quite clear is if you do set up a new organisation, people

in an existing organisation are not bound to become part of that. They

have to make that decision for themselves. I stand in any election

on the basis of my record. I stand also as a Conservative. I have

always made it clear that I was a Conservative and on each of the

occasions, I have managed to increase the Conservative vote in

the constituency I am standing in. 2010, general election in Scotland,

16.7%. 2011, election constituency, 13.9, list 12.4. That is a Tory

record. It hasn't worked wonderfully, has it? Nobody is

disputing that. Everybody accepts this election should be about

change and radical change. It shouldn't be about destroying what

we have. It should be about throwing the baby out with the bath

water. Let's build on what we have got, not destroy it. I believe that

there is an opportunity to move forward if we have the right

leadership, the right policies and divide campaigning style. It is

very easy and tempting, given the difficulties, to think that there

is a silver bullet. I'm afraid there is not. It is a combination

of things. We are setting up a new party and a new name is not one of

them. Manchester, the candidates are on route to conference right

now. To discuss the election, I am delighted to welcome key supporters.

Peter Duncan is here to speak up for Murdo Fraser, Mr Davidson and

head off Scottish Ballet, Stephanie. We had it advocate, William Frain-

Bell. Thank you for joining us. Duncan, the Commons by a Miss Tim

It doesn't help when it they say it is the wrong approach. You are

trying hard to be specific. He said he wanted to go to Westminster and

so the Conservative whip. They would take the Conservative whip

and help in the election of a Conservative Prime Minister. That

is what our predecessors did. is wrong with that, Stephanie

Fraser? It has demonstrated how unclear the proposals are. The

confusion. It could be David Mundell but is unclear, not Murdo

Fraser. It is unclear how Murdo Fraser is wanting to go. Are we

amalgamating all the existing assets and a new name? We are

talking about a new party, recognising that the Unionist Party

has failed to secure the support of 40% of people. He has been Deputy

Leader of the party for the last seven years. Surely he has to take

responsibility. He knows how bad it is? As I watched him at wriggling

like a worm, the only person who is enjoying this is Alex Salmond. He

is the Panther that everybody has to beat. To do that, you can't send

in an office cat. The have Ruth Davidson who has been in politics

for six weeks. I don't know what her politics are. You have Murdo

Fraser who will split the party in house and Jackson Carlaw. You think

it will split them rather than unite them? I sympathise with Murdo

Fraser, he has not got the right solution and the party will split

in half. You would not join the new party? If a somebody who believes

in democracy, I would go with what the members decide. That is what

David Mundell's problem was. If Murdo Fraser wins, he has to do

what he has to do. It would split the party. You are looking for

somebody it where the party can coalesce around. I have stood

against Alex Salmond. What we are facing here, we are handing an open

goal to the SNP. We must appear to be united. For what we should be

doing, so there focusing up on what the party is going to be culled, we

should be focusing on how we get support at a local level. That is

what Margaret Mitchell wants to do. Under the current set-up, you stood

against Alex Salmond. The present set-up isn't working too well.

came second and it was a very good election. There were one or two

thirds between ass. May I say that I know about how the SNP works.

They have mastered social midi and will continue to do that over the

next two or three years. -- Social media. You are saying that the SNP

are being successful because they are harnessing new media and new

campaigning tools. We have ceased in our party to be an effective

campaigning force. Now is the time for a generation change. I hope you

are not saying that just because people are all do, that they can't

embrace social media. We cannot spend the next few years fighting.

We have to show a positive message. The SNP are demonstrating...

you say it is the wrong time? statistic gets to the heart of why

Alex Salmond would be delighted if Murdo Fraser doesn't win. That is

6% of the Scottish electorate see the current Scottish Conservative

Unionist Party as putting Scottish interests first. That is less than

half of those people that voted. Shouldn't you change your policy

and your approach rather than your name? We would have a new party but

we would have any policies, new people. You say you don't need a

new captain, G need a new ship? They are those that are not part of

the party that will see themselves as having a new home. Alex Salmond

doesn't care who wins this election. He will not be frightened of any of

the candidates. What is needed is not only a new leader, it is going

to have to be policy lead. People are going to have to be attracted

by the policies regardless of who the leader is. If what about the

argument that the brand is so toxic that you can't get an audience for

the policies. You can't get by that toxicity in the brand to get a

hearing at all? All they did was add the words, new, on the front.

They changed their policies. They change them at the very core and

that has not been addressed by a main candidates. Let's talk about

funding. We were talking about assets are shifting to this new

party. What about funding of William? Will they be far better?

From what the press has been indicating, there are one or two

names that have indicated that they will supply money. People are

attracted by something new and exciting and would like to be

involved in it. If we are talking about funding, we could easily use

the same funding. If everybody was working together, we could be using

the funding to look at the existing party and working out how we can

best use money to use the party that we have at the moment, to take

head on some major decisions that are going to be made by the

Scottish people in the next few years. I want to know that their

money is coming to be effectively spent. They want to know that they

are going to see the source. The problem we have had is too many

offenders have not seen many -- have seen many them down the toilet.

It is not about throwing out the baby with the bathwater, it is

about providing an effective plan and saying, if we have your support,

this is what we can do. I had been party chairman during elections

where we have spent huge amounts of money and they have not seen

resorts. The reality is the Scottish Conservative and Unionist

Party have failed to secure that massive cent weight vote in

Scotland. This new party will be the start of coalescing at this

party. If Murdo Fraser wins, then we will have a new party and the

membership will endorse that. If he loses, he has said that he will

remain an enthusiastic supporter. He says there is no future for the

party in its present form. It will never succeed in its present form.

It must adapt or die. You are saying you remain a member of a

party that you say has no future. think the statistics are very clear.

We have to vote share. How could you stay there when you think it is

the dead party? The cars at the end of the day, I believe in civic

responsibility, in enterprise... You have to be honest. If Murdo

Fraser wins this, the party will split in half. If Ruth wins this,

people will not support her either. We need somebody with experience,

gravitas, and that will have to be Jackson Carlaw. When David Cameron

stepped forward as a young person... Ruth Davidson has been in

Parliament for six weeks! That speaks of the lack of being able to

develop any talent in the Conservative Party. If I may, I

think it is wrong to penalise the only candidate who has been an

elected councillor. She understands local issues. Why should she be

penalised? With Davidson has no political experience. We need

someone with significant political experience and that is Margaret

Mitchell. Margaret Mitchell, to varying degrees, is more at the

same. The reality is the ship is going down. He is just turning

around saying we are doomed, we need the positives. He are going to

have to find a new name! Let's have a look at the list of named the

That is the list. You are laughing, but you don't fancy any of those?

think the Titanic should be the name because it is going down and

fast. You don't fancy any of those? I'm not sure it will make any

difference. I wasn't sure what is being referred to as the tightening

because the Scottish Unionist Party is not sinking, it is in good hands

and it is going forward. Things will change. People will start...

It things will change. A man me tell you why - because over the

next few years, people will start having to think about how they will

vote in his forthcoming referendum and the Conservative Party is the

voice of Unionism. If it is not United, the referendum may well go

in favour... N the of those names tickle you? I am a Conservative, my

father was a proud conservative, my grandfather was elected as a

Unionist, and before him he was elected as a moderate. Naming

itself is not a big deal. Your are going to have to choose one.

think there are merits in lots of them. Do problem with Murdo

Fraser... It is a consultation with the membership and we will make our

decision. The you could call yourselves the Jacobites! If you

launch a campaign, the premise is that you have to change the party's

name that everyone can coalesce around. You can imagine he would be

able to tell us what that will be. The name will not involve

Conservative and Unionist, we have got to have a new start. What is

wrong with Conservatives or unionists? C X the scent of the

Scottish electorate see us as putting Scotland's interests first

and that has got to change. It is not a problem with the name.

you have been trying to tweak policies for ages. I remember some

very esteemed figures in our party. In 1997 the Strathclyde Commission

saying if we get the policies right things will change, and they

haven't. Particularly when Ruth Davidson says give it 10 years...

There are briefly. This new party will have new policies as well. We

are thinking about bosses now, policies that help local people at

a local level. Thanks to all your contributions from all four of you.

I am not sure about the name. Jacobites.

Coming up later in the programme - 40 years on, the legacy of the UCS

sit-in. People sent people from all over the world to look at it and it

was very inspiring and positive. There are almost 18,000 crofts in

Scotland, stretching from Shetland to Argyll. This unique system of

small-scale, part-time agriculture holdings has helped support rural

populations for centuries. And this weekend new legislation comes in,

aimed at making modern crofting more viable. But problems with

absentee crofters, land speculation, neglect and a declining population

of young people, pose formidable challenges for its future. This

report from Angus Macdonald in Stornoway. This part of the area

was involved in some land agitation in the 19th century, and what

became known later as the Agnes riot. The relationship between

crofters and legislators is still uneasy. The crofting Act of 2010 is

still being treated by crofters with a degree of suspicion.

Legislation alone will not protect crofting. They are good part to the

legislation, parts that are not so good, and parts that are wholly

untested. Crofting has been part of the area for centuries. There are

over 18,000 crofts. The income is so small that other employment is

essential. Governments have tried to give crofting a viable future

but the problems are difficult. Speculation in croft land, absentee

tenants and misuse of the land itself. Last year's crofting Reform

Act changed the ruling body, enabling crofters to elect their

own representatives. It's disappointing the development rule

has gone from the commission, and if it becomes a bit part of another

agency, crofting will lose out. Stornoway the legal profession is

about as close as you can get to being expert in crofting law. They

are waiting in particular to see what effect it will have on

crofting land. A I'm not aware there it is damping down, the

market, in terms of the clawback. There seems to be an interest in

crofting from young people, and in interest in still building croft

houses. There has done been any noticeable change in the area. --

not been. There was also pressure to rule out absentee crofters.

to me it is not the death of crofting. Neglect is a big one.

They're very good reasons for absenteeism, there is no reason for

neglect. There have been mistakes you read about in the press, but

generally they have been very clear about it. If they can put up a good

case, they will look at it sympathetically. Crofting has lost

out because people have been forced off the land, forced to make a

career for themselves and their families, many of whom have

returned. Without these people returning in generations past, we

would not have crofting today. The most important thing is that

whoever has to croft, they ensure the whole thing is in the interests

of the community. What of the most controversial provisions branded by

the council as a snoopers charter, is the responsibility placed on

gracing committees and clerks to act against those who misuse their

crofts. The Clarke must be inspired with enough confidence to make sure

he fulfils his role. Their perception may totally differ, and

no matter how conscientious one is, they will make enemies along the

road. What is more important - to live peacefully with your neighbour

or seemed to be carrying out a bit of legislation that is not

necessarily what crofting needs. This is the latest attempt to make

crofting a viable system but an ongoing conspiracy between the

forces of a maternity leave the future of crofting unclear.

I'm joined now from Aberdeen by Stewart Stevenson, the Environment

Minister. Hearing there about issues in the legislation, detailed

issues in crofting. Let me start in a more fundamental way - what do

you see as the purpose of crofting in modern Scotland? It does date

back to the clearances in the Victorian times which were a blight

upon the north and west of Scotland. The original legislation in

Victorian times was the first attempt to make sure that people

had the right to remain on their land and to live in their

communities, and have the access to resources. That is restated in the

2010 legislation, that it is about keeping people on the land and

making sure the land upon which they lived is in a fit and proper

state. Do you still think there is that practical role, or is it a

product of history and sentiment? There is a very practical role

indeed. We must remember that much of our countryside depends on the

stewardship that we exercised over it as crofters, as farmers, as

people who visit the countryside. Creating the landscape, creating

the wonderful environment that so many visitors come to, that much of

the world admires. The legislation in 1993, and 2010, it is feared to

sustaining these remote and vulnerable communities. I'm sure we

can make significant contribution through this new piece of

legislation. What about the fears are that there will be a

detrimental result in transferring development money? The crofting

Commission, which will prove to be a predominantly elected body, will

be a strong champion to work with Highlands and Islands Enterprise.

The commission themselves will not have the money, it will be

transferred to others. Yes, but H I eat is a body that represents the

interests of the islands and it is demonstrated by the economic

development we have seen, the powerhouse in many ways in

Scotland's economy, the benefits of long running engagement and

investment in our communities, that will not change. On the contrary,

the work they will be doing with the crofting Commission and

individual crofters will be integrated with wider development.

The concern might be that the development continues in the

Inverness region, and perhaps the crofting lands themselves more

remote don't get the money they got in the past. No, that is not the

case. We are powering through democratic accountability in the

crofting Commission, but also the rolling of the grazing committees

are renounced so there is local engagement in what is going on. It

is very clear we will understand exactly what is required in the way

of investment, financial and practical support to crofting

communities. There is a future for crofting that is important to

Scotland. You mentioned the grazing committees. We heard that their

concern, something that it could be a snoopers charter unless it is

properly organised. People were very concerned about absentee

crofters. I think we are delivering the power to make sure the crofting

Commission is aware of what requires to be done. We do need

local people on the ground. The grazing Committee is a vital part

of ensuring we link local to the crofting Commission. But if they

are to do their work properly, isn't there a concern one neighbour

will grass upon another if they feel they are absent too much?

is about information being available to the crofting

Commission. When information is available, when the crofting

Commission can take the action that supports the overwhelming majority

of people who responded to the report, saying that we needed more

people resonant, saying that we needed better standards of

stewardship over the crofts. former Pakistani president, Pervez

Musharaf, visited Scotland this week. The exiled general ruled

Pakistan for nine years until 2008, before fleeing to the UK. General

Musharraf is wanted by an anti- terrorist court in Pakistan over

accusations he failed to protect the former Prime Minister, Benazir

Bhutto, from assassination in December 2007. He describes the

case against him as "baseless" and politically driven and plans to

return to Pakistan within the next six months. My colleague, Glenn

Campbell caught up with him in In 2009, Gordon Brown, said that

two-thirds or three-quarters of all terrorist plots in Britain

originated all were linked to patterns -- Pakistan. Why is that?

I agree that many of the plots, the people had some link with the

Pakistan. They were born and bred here so one should take

responsibility here. Roof why are the terrorists when they were born

and bred here? Because of the turmoil in Pakistan and Afghanistan,

they found safe haven where they could train and get some resources

may be, through whatever resources were going to the Taliban.

understand why radical Islam is attractive to some people,

particularly young Muslim men in this country? We need to understand

the causes. The root causes are poverty in Afghanistan. The Shi'ite

bombers, they are cases of poverty and illiteracy. They are told that

if they blow themselves up, they go to heaven. He thinks this is true

and he is miserable here. He is going to live a very wonderful life

in the next world. He is a literate enough to not understand this. The

people here are not poor and illiterate. That is a political

turmoil. Since after the Second World War, every political issue

has Muslim connections, Muslim countries are involved. In each one

of them, Muslim countries are on the receiving end. Palestine, no

resolution. Kashmir, no resolution. Their implementation, then come

Bosnia and Chechnya. No independence to Chechnya. Estonia,

Lithuania, all three can bind of one-tenth of Chechnya that they get

their independence, not Chechnya. There is anger, frustration.

Political disputes, Muslims being alienated, Muslims suffering,

therefore it is these political disputes. Also poverty and

illiteracy which causes the problems. What Maud -- what more

could you country do to help support stability in Pakistan and

help the economy picked up there? think there are a lot of Pakistanis

who do well here. I must say to the credit of Scotland, the Pakistani

people are Upwood -- upwardly mobile, much more than the rest of

England. I think they some -- should contribute more in

moderation, promote tolerance here and then maybe, if they want to

help, economic assistance in Pakistan. Investment in Pakistan.

Many investors are taking their money out right now. That is

because of lack of confidence in the Government, lack of trust in

the Government. The dollar exchange rate has gone from -- gone down in

so many years. Many Pakistani scalds have become involved in the

domestic politics of the country. - - Scots. Some weather -- someone to

know whether we should be independent of the UK. Do you have

a comment on that? No, I would not like to comment. All over the world,

there is nationalism and it is a strong force. It is exerting

everywhere. Czechoslovak feet -- Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic,

French speaking, English-speaking, I wouldn't like to comment. If you

were back running Pakistan, would it matter to you if the UK remained

intact or indeed if it Scotland became independent? Never thought

of it frankly. We are dealing with the United Kingdom. Thank you very

much indeed. From that back to Scottish matters. Do you remember

the UCS working? It is 40 years since the workers, Reid and Airlie,

occupied the shipbuilders in protests. Veterans have been

marking the anniversary with a gala concert at the Mitchell Theatre in

Glasgow. In a moment, we will look at the legacy of UCS. Gilly

Mathieson has been talking to those that helped save the shipping

It was an all-star cast as veterans and their supporters celebrated 40

years of the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders work in. The artists

included some who played in fund- raising concerts at the time. The

working was called in 19 centre one when the Conservative Government,

led by Sir Edward Heath, refused to give ECS a subsidy to save the

shipyards from being closed. For the workers, action was taken to

protect their jobs. As soon as the concept of a work in, not a

traditional strike or sit in the was conceived, momentum grew and

everybody knew that there was something different about the

activity. Particularly being led by a Jimmy Reid and Jimmy air Lee, we

knew that they were exceptional leaders. We should reverse the

whole plan. They went on building and I came and supported them. We

were in opposition at that time. Harold Wilson was nervous but he

went up to Glasgow. He was convinced by what was being done.

The Government was faced with harsh economic times and their plan was

to rein in Government intervention in the economy in an effort to

break with the socialist policies of the 1960s. The mood of Britain

was for somebody to stand up to a reaction in Government. It did

capture the attention of the whole of Britain in supporting Mez.

Footballers, you could actually get into the Citizens Theatre with your

union card. The campaign continued to gather momentum. We had the

Marxist and the ministers, everyone in the team, churches, schools,

supporting the UCS. They paid the workers who were not working and

that support lasted. The most memorable moment I had was the day

they organised the march from the yard to Glasgow. The Yard's turned

out and it was great. The humour in the yard was marvellous. People

didn't let the situation get them down. Getting their message across

was crucial for the UCS who were competing with the Government press

machine. For my part, the Government miss read the situation

and thought that they had the upper hand by controlling the tabloids

and the broadsheets. The guys immediately recognised that it is a

new type of campaign. We decided we would be as good at the media as

those guys. Having Jimmy Reid as an Auditor, it was wonderful. We are

going to fight this and we are going to fight it with

determination. In 1972, but Government backed down and history

was made. It helped change minds because we could have gone ahead

after the receivership and sheet down industry. They didn't do that

because workers were saying that they weren't going to resist what

was going on, they were going to work on. Demanding the right to

work. There was a powerful message at the time. -- but that was.

Veterans here is still have a message they want to pass on. Many

feel the UCS has been airbrushed from history. They say this piece

of social and industrial history must never be forgotten.

Is it just history always fair and lasting legacy? With me is

Professor Tom Devine and the actress, Elaine C Smith. You were

taking part in that concert last night. What was your role? I had

the honour of reading the famous Rat race address. When it was said

initially, I thought, oh yes. It was a woman's voice reading it and

it took it out of the smoke-filled rooms and the old fashioned Labour

politics. Also, it could have been written up this morning. That is

what struck me, given where we are in the recession, given the people

that have been put out of work. The relevance and the vision, that is

what the whole celebration is about. You are far too young to remember

it directly, what is the reminiscence for you? It was men

like my dad and my ankles. I came from a working-class background. --

Mike uncles. They were all part of that industry. It was here, that

the level of intellectualism that was involved, hearing how an

ordinary working-class man spoke with such fission, those images of

the men running out of the gates. It was so huge. What did this mean?

It formed my own ideas of politics. Tom, what did it mean? Is it just a

historical event these days? It was in the short run an enormous

victory against the Government which is unusual. Lot of the venues

have been propound as humanity over many sources. We are not far away

from the context that we have had today in that period. The other

thing that strikes me, the world that we have lost, people like read

it work self educated. He left school at 14 and taught himself.

The hidden background is the Communist Party, of which the

leaders were members, made sure that they were well educated. I

wonder whether that great tradition, that great cultural that tradition

as apt. The Communist Party was in financial -- influential in those

days. The fascinating thing is that has passed away. In no way did that

leadership overtly state that the human factor was more important

than capital. Elaine, the legacy? You only have to listen to Ed

Miliband's speech, but you see that there is a desire, a desire to

harness capitalism and say, there is another way her. It is not that

I am a supporter but that attempt at a different sort of discussion,

it came to me. Everything you say about morality, humanity and other

things, it is more about that. We have lost that. It is not a

romantic legacy, we were not looking back thinking we should be

in the shipyards again, it has redefined we are. Tom, there was a

degree of support for UCS. We have pending strikes likely in the

public sector in the UK at the moment. Is that degree of sympathy

likely to be there in those strikes? It is not possible to tell

yet because this is still to happen. The scenario is not significantly

different to what it was then. If there is a lesson from the UCAS are

working, it is not to be sectional or sectarian in the trade unions

sense. They have to guard and support from all parts of the

committee if they are going to be successful. They will be easily

targeted otherwise by other sources of authority. That is a great.

Because if you go down that old fashioned route, it puts people off.

Ordinary workers are going, how does this reply -- relate to me?

That disconnection between ordinary people. If the newspapers have the

ability to say that anybody there goes on strike is evil, we have to

say that we are those people wanting to live differently and

this is unjust and unfair. That connect is important. The trade

unions are in the period then had a terrible repetition because they

had been three years of union discontent. This is why this idea

of working to save the yards, the working was so innovative and

successful. One of the things in the current situation, if some

visionary could come up with something as a formula, they could

be onto a winner. I detect a lot of anger, a lot of anger because the

Elise, the bankers, the politicians and other elites can have betrayed

-- have behaved badly. Isn't there a desperate anger, or rather that

that -- that the angle was particular? The difficulty is these

discontents are so widely spread. It is possible to play one group

off against another. They will be a tougher challenge than it was with

that particular period. The other thing is to sentimentalise, which

is wrong, the period of the colics. There are no two yards in the Clyde

which would not be there except for the working. You are adamant about

that? Let's face it, that all economy disappeared a few years

later. There's no doubt the Conservative Party learnt a lesson

from that. We have to be hard on this group. Ironically, you could

see that the success spawned the Was this a Scottish phenomenon?

had global route. Tony Benn spoke last night about the little boy who

gets stuck down the well, and the local community put a rope down. It

is not long enough, they get a longer one and it is not long

enough. The boy shouts "tie them all together". It is simplistic,

but it is important. Many intellectuals are trying to harness

the different ideas to say There is another way. Thanks to both of you.

Unfortunately we are out of time. That is all for the Politics Show

this week. Raymond be can and will be standing in at the same time

next week. I will be going to Manchester to see how the candidate

targeted on. -- the candidates are getting on. When it comes to

support, Ed Miliband was in pretty powerful company. It added to

everyone, but when a politician's gaffe is caught on camera, it is

embarrassing. You want me to recite it? I can't. Whose idea was that?

Be honest, who didn't feel for the Labour leader when our

correspondent asked in this question. Can you name the three of

them? Yes, as I say, though this Tom howls, Joanne Lamont and a

third candidate who is also putting himself forward. The front-runner,

Ken Mackintosh. The front-runner but you can't name him? He is an

excellent candidate. That third candidate laughed it off publicly.

I forget the names of my kids most of the time so it shows politicians

are human. Baroness Warsi was given the same challenge for the Tories.

Can you name them? We have Murdo Fraser, Jackson Carlaw, Ruth