16/10/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


16/10/2011

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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Does it prove that money still buys access to British politics? We hear

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from a govern Minister, Jim Murphy and Tory backbenchers have. On the

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Politics Show Scotland, we'll hear from Labour's new Shadow Scottish

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Secretary on how the party aims to persuade voters to back them again.

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We'll also try and find out how many questions the people will be

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asked in the independence referendum. Could there be a simple

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Yes and No campaign? Or will there be a second question keeping the

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union but offering more powers - so-called devolution max? It would

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make eminent sense. I thought Labour would be behind that. And it

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is an industry which is worth billions and growing, but why does

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1343 seconds

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the Scottish tourist industry feel I do not understand why the private

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office did not say. Why they did not go to somebody else and see

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they are worried about it. There is a feeling of a lack of joined up

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thinking. We do not know what was and was not there. That is why we

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have got the Cabinet Secretary looking into it. We must wait until

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after that report has been produced. The cat let Liam Fox get away with

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cultivating links with other regimes. The fact that it might be

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a passable thing does not mean that he was not doing it, some of the

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Realistic. Some of it is complete nonsense. You would expect him to

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have relationships with people... What did you make of that?

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Referring back... The answer is, without... All politicians at one

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to stop newspapers. Newspapers are very important. We cannot have it

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newspapers are making decisions about what actually did happen. MI

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policy area, in the front of the Observer, the story was completely

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wrong. Thank you very much indeed for being here. Later in the

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programme, what might Europe and our relationship with that look

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like once the dust settles on the eurozone crisis? First however, the

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Politics Show where you are. Coming up on the show today, we ask the

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new Shadow Secretary of what her vision of Labour is. It is quite

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possible for powers to gravitate Isn't it about time a recognised

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that tourism brings in a jobs and cash to Scotland? Should it be

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better supported. First at the lunchtime news.

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Good morning. Full-time carers in Scotland are to get cash from the

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Scottish government which they can Scottish government which they can

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use to pay for a short break. The To around 3,500 carers, both

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:26:57.:26:59.

Julie Peacock reports. It is estimated that carers save the

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health service thousands of pounds a year. The government has

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announced it is giving almost �1 billion to charity groups to

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provide short breaks for carers. The money will be used to fund

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after-school clubs for young carers and social activities to prevent

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people becoming lonely or isolated. There are around 650,000 carers in

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Scotland. The money will benefit around 3500 of them.

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A new survey suggests almost three quarters of Scots think Holyrood

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should have more say over how the country is run than the Westminster

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government. The Scottish Social Attitudes Survey also found a

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higher level of satisfaction with the Scottish Government. Speaking

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this morning, Alex Salmond said the figures were encouraging. In the

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survey published today, support for the Scottish government is running

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at 62%, three times the support for trust in the United Kingdom

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Government. For the first time, TV viewers are

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to see footage of Sir Fred Goodwin apologising to Royal Bank of

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Scotland shareholders. It's in a BBC Scotland documentary tomorrow,

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three years after the Edinburgh- based banking group was bailed out

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by the British taxpayers. It ran up the biggest corporate loss in

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British history. RBS: Inside The Bank That Ran Out Of Money is at 9

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o'clock tomorrow evening. To tennis, and Andy Murray has

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successfully defended his Shanghai Masters title by beating Spain's

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David Ferrer 7-5 6-4. He has completed an Asian triple after

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wins in Thailand and Japan. He's now world number three.

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Showers in the north west of the country will be come heavier and

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more frequent throughout the day, although there will be some sunny

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spells. Elsewhere it is going to be fairly cloudy, with one or two

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showers. Tonight, those showers in the north west will become quite

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blustery with winds touching gale force in places.

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That's it for now. Our next news bulletin is just after quarter past

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six this evening. Now it's back to Raymond.

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Thanks, Rob. They have dubbed themselves Team

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Scotland. The latest Labour reshuffle has seen 13 of the

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party's Scottish MPs made spokesmen or women on a variety of subjects

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from climate change to benefits. But what will they actually stand

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for? The party's chief strategist Douglas Alexander has called on his

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colleagues to find a story which reconnects with the Scottish people.

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He also pointed out only one in eight Scots voted for Labour in

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May's Holyrood election. So they seem to be a party in search of a

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vision, but what vision? Christine Labour has taken significant steps

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this week to help of the electoral recovery north of Scotland. Our job

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is to be a better expression of a politics of social justice and that

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sense of possibility. North of the border, after giving a prang speech

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on where the party went franc -- a franc speech on where the party

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went wrong in May, a new vision was unveiled. But a former First

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Minister warns of critical obstacles of the Labour Party must

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overcome before its members are capable of working together to

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produce the new vision necessary for recovery. Holyrood and

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Westminster must have equal status and that is not happening. There

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are too many tensions, too many people still at Westminster who

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want to lecture those at Edinburgh. We have got to start singing off

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the same hymn sheet. The success of the SNP is that there has a small

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number working closely together. are not articulating clearly the

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core values they claim to stand for, according to one commentator.

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us what a more equal Scotland will look like. Talk about life chances,

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about the good things you have done and not done. That agenda is

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something Labour have never fleshed out in the 12 years of the Scottish

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Parliament. Some politicians have tried, but there has never been one

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of mantra. A of the Labour Party can overcome its internal

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differences, Henry McLeish says his top priority should come up with a

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credible alternative but to independence. We have to look at

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the issue of the independence referendum. Not just to oppose that

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and have a unionist Alliance, but to have an alternative. For me, it

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could be Devolution Max. But come the party deliver these

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alternatives and time for an independence referendum and

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outmanoeuvre the SNP to return to I am joined now by the newly

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promoted Shadow Scottish Secretary, Margaret Curran. Congratulations on

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your promotion. What was a job description you were given?

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priority is about the future of Scotland. Henry McLeish had a point

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when he said that me -- that any need unity, parity with Westminster.

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Our priority is the people of Scotland. Talk about the lessons.

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You talk about parity between MPs and MSPs. As a former MSP, there

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was undoubtedly tensions. It is sometimes at the nature of change.

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But looking forward, there is unity of purpose. We have learned a lot

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of lessons. Westminster has a deep understanding and commitment to

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Holyrood. But in the Westminster team, we have a very strong group

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of talented MPs, your MPs with new ideas and the new energy who want

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to co-ordinate and focus that in the best interest of Scotland.

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There will be at some point and new leader of the Labour Party in

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Scotland, what will be your relationship with whoever that is?

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I know them well, so I am sure it will be a good relationship. They

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will be directing policy in Scotland. Where it is a reserved

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issue. I can guarantee you that when you focus on the people that

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represent you and when you focus on Scotland, and we have a lot of

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thinking to do about the future of Scotland, then it we will gel.

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will that work on policies like higher education for the Labour

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Party in Westminster will have one due -- one opinion. We have been

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living with death of policies for many years. -- a different policies.

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If you are a voter, you are hearing one message across the United

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Kingdom, a separate message in Scotland and your perception might

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be that you are a divided party, you do not have a common purpose.

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do not think that is true. We are a variety of nations with different

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government. We have a devolved nations addressing their own issues.

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Scottish education has always been different from English education.

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This is just perhaps a more dramatic version of that. But the

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Labour Party is a big party, we are a big movement of the big

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challenges and we can accommodate back quite easily. Is it just the

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Labour Party in Scotland which seems to be struggling to tell

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voters a story which will attract them, or the Labour Party across

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the UK? There are lessons to try and understand the big challenges

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in the United Kingdom. The biggest challenge that Scotland faces is

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the economic challenge that is taking across the world. We had

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80,000 young people that are unemployed. That is a major change.

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I think that some of the thinking that Ed Miliband is doing is very

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interesting. We have to change in Scotland to adapt to the changes.

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People in Scotland to talk about changing the party, coming up with

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different policies, but we have no details. What has Labour stand for

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now? The big challenge facing Labour in the future, what Douglas

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was saying the other night is very interesting, it is the big economic

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changes that we are facing. We have to face that enormous at this

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location -- dislocation. Devolution is about that redistribution of

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power. It is about empowering people. We have not talked enough

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about that. So give us a policy. will not give you a list of

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policies. One that would do. will challenge on of employment in

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Scotland. When we face economic dislocation, we will make sure that

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we fulfil Labour's historic mission. When a Europe of the survey

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published today, people trust the Scottish government more than their

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:37:50.:37:52.

UK government. That is as a result of what the SNP has done. When you

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look at that survey, over many years, when devolution could first

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given, people welcome that very strongly. I think the service part

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of a bigger story. There are possibly two questions want

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independence. -- on independence. We have got a lot of deep thinking

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to do and I want to be part of that regeneration of the party.

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Developing policies for the future. We need to make sure that we don't

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just get into a straitjacket. The questions in Scotland are too big

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for that. My team in the UK will be contributing to that bigger debate

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is that we need to have about the big challenges Scotland face rather

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:38:58.:39:00.

than talking about this -- about the powers of the Scottish

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government. We need to talk about demographic change, economic change.

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That is a conversation we need to have her. Thank you very much

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indeed for your time. The Scottish National Party will

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gather in Inverness later this week to celebrate their election victory,

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but also to discuss how they can win the upcoming independence

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referendum. But how many questions will voters be asked to answer? A

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simple yes or no to independence, or a second option which would keep

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the union but back greater powers for Holyrood - so-called Devolution

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:39:40.:39:41.

Remember this question on the last time Scotland was asked to vote in

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rare referendum on palace was back in 1997. People were asked if they

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wanted a Scottish Parliament. As the results came in, it was clear

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that the answer was an overwhelming "yes". The votes cast for "yes",

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18,790. It represents 80%. there was also a second question.

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The votes cast I agree that a Scottish Parliament should have

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tax-varying powers, up 16,112. Representing 68.7 % of the ballot

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box. Now the people are to be asked again about Scotland's

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constitutional future, and again, they could be two questions. This

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is what the last minority SNP Government proposed. First, a

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greater powers ballot. The Scottish Parliament would, with certain

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exceptions, be responsible for all laws, taxes and duties in Scotland.

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The exceptions, which would continue to be the responsibility

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of the United Kingdom Parliament, our defence and foreign affairs,

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financial regulation, monetary policy and the currency. Do you

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:41:09.:41:21.

agree? The second question would But since these proposals were

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published, there has been an election and Alex Salmond has a new

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majority Government. He is yet to rule on how many questions he

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currently prefers. If there is a third option, more powers, then the

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likelihood is that that would win, or at least that Scotland would

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vote for either independence or more powers, and so the SNP could

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come away with at least gaining something from the referendum. It

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is an insurance policy for the SNP. But that insures policy raises the

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prospect of some conflict campaigning. The SNP are during the

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"yes" "yes", others are doing "no" "no", and others St "yes" to more

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powers and "no" to independence. But he would those others be?

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majority of people, I think many people who vote for the SNP, would

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vote for increased devolution but not outright independence. Many

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people voting for the Labour Party and probably the other parties, too,

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would feel some of it. So I think that no, Yes campaign may not win.

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But people would have to know exactly what they were voting for.

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The last Holyrood referendum had cross-party support. That would not

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happen this time. On the constitution, Scotland's politics

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remains deeply divided. I am joined now by Ian Davidson, chair of the

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Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster, who has just announced

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two inquiries into he independence referendum. Also the SNP's Derek

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Mackay, Cook represents the backbenchers at Holyrood. Alex

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Salmond hinted earlier in the week he would have a second question,

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one on for fiscal autonomy or Devolution Max, one of the other

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names for it. That will happen, Bridget? I think the Government

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remains open-minded on the questions that will be put to

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Scotland. That will be outlined over the coming period but if there

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are multiple questions, what will be clear is that we have a very

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positive case for both more powers for the Scottish Government or

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independence. But we will be aiming to win the independence. It is only

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fair that people know there will be a question on independence, so it

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is only fair that you said as much time as possible for people to know

:43:40.:43:43.

there will be a second question, in case there are those areas

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campaigns. How much time will you give people before you announce

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what there will be for a second question, and if there will be one?

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The First Minister said there would be the referendum in the second

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part of the parliamentary term. The Scottish people have given us a

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mandate for that. There will be a - - plenty of time. There will be a

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proper process to ensure that Scotland's voice is probably ahead

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and that the polls that we have seen today show that both

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independence is very popular and people think that power is rightly

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held in Holyrood, the most relevant parliament in dealing with a

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Scotland's day-to-day concerns. Davidson, you have watched these

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two inquiries, or your committee has. By, or when this is an issue

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that will be dealt with at Holyrood? -- why? It is much better

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we have separation achieved amicably and that will have to be

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done with the UK and Scotland and all of us, whichever the retake,

:44:48.:44:54.

will want the process to have been as amicable and settled as possible.

:44:54.:44:59.

That is why. There are two points we want to pursue which we do not

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believe are being pursued adequate. How a separation referendum is

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actually going to be run. It is clear that at the moment legal

:45:10.:45:13.

representation for constitutional matters lies with Westminster. That

:45:13.:45:17.

was decided by the Scottish people when they voted in the referendum.

:45:17.:45:21.

Wait. That was is guided by the Scottish people when they voted in

:45:21.:45:25.

the referendum. -- that was decided. But things have moved on and it is

:45:25.:45:29.

clear we are going to have a referendum of some sort. For the

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second thing we will pursue is that if we are going to have separation,

:45:31.:45:35.

people have got to know what they are averaging about. Michael Moore

:45:35.:45:39.

produced a list of half a dozen items he Bix need to be clarified.

:45:40.:45:43.

We are asking people in Scotland what additional issues they need to

:45:43.:45:48.

have clarified. For example... Let's just take that first point.

:45:48.:45:54.

Which is that it would be an advisory referendum. Westminster

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are hardly going to turn around, having had a referendum in Scotland,

:45:57.:46:02.

and say, tell you what, we do not care what you think. Why should a

:46:02.:46:06.

referendum simply be advisory? Why don't we take the view that it will

:46:06.:46:16.
:46:16.:46:17.

be binding, but Westminster accepts it is a binding referendum? One at

:46:17.:46:24.

a time. It is important that if we are moving to separation we do it

:46:24.:46:28.

amicably. I would have thought that having both Westminster and the

:46:28.:46:31.

Scottish Government clear that it will be a fair referendum with a

:46:31.:46:40.

fair question, then that is the best way forward. Do you think that

:46:40.:46:44.

they are trying to park their tanks on your lawn? All the parties in

:46:44.:46:51.

Westminster are all over the place. Scott learned -- the Scottish

:46:51.:46:54.

National Party has a mandate to hold this referendum. The Scottish

:46:54.:46:58.

Affairs Committee, it is absolutely irrelevant, it is a sideshow, it is

:46:58.:47:08.

not a committee made up of Scottish MPs. As we approach... As we

:47:08.:47:12.

approach the referendum, there has to be a prospectus that will

:47:12.:47:16.

outline what independence and the other choices would mean. It is the

:47:16.:47:20.

status quo. But in terms of Mr Davidson's chairmanship of the

:47:20.:47:25.

committee, I do not think he has too much credibility on harmonious

:47:25.:47:31.

discussion. Mr Davidson has referred to the SNP as neo-fascists.

:47:31.:47:37.

Unacceptable language on what should be a very good debate on the

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future of the country. When the country decided to do this it was

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unanimous. There was not a single vote against. Representatives of

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all political parties in Scotland were in agreement. What exactly is

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the relevant Sardar you are going to ask questions in this inquiry,

:47:58.:48:03.

Ian Davidson. You have taught about the six points, or what other boys

:48:03.:48:07.

would you like clarified? The whole point of a qualification is that we

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are asking the people of Scotland to tell us what they want clarified.

:48:11.:48:16.

As a constituency MP I want to see what is going to happen to the

:48:16.:48:21.

shipyards clarified. Well, we can't cover everything, so... We cannot

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even get the language in a constructive tone. It is not

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separation, it is independence, it is perfectly normal around the

:48:29.:48:34.

world, so why the pejorative language? The Poles do suggest that

:48:34.:48:42.

independence is more popular than the alternatives. -- Poles. It

:48:42.:48:45.

appears it is Mr Davidson who's out of step with the people of Scotland

:48:45.:48:50.

and his own voters. Derek Mackay it seems to be making quite a good

:48:50.:48:53.

point, that Labour are not only losing the argument in Scotland but

:48:53.:48:57.

in the UK? That is why we need a referendum on the question of

:48:57.:49:01.

separation and we accept that. There will now be a referendum on

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separation and what we are saying is that firstly, it has got to be

:49:05.:49:09.

run properly. Most fans, a snowdrift questions... This is

:49:10.:49:17.

ridiculous. There will be up an independent body -- are there will

:49:17.:49:23.

be an independent body... It will be a referendum of the highest

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standards. Quite a heated debate. When we can use Midge Ure language

:49:29.:49:35.

and described... -- Midge Ure language. Labour leadership, are

:49:35.:49:41.

you going to stand for any post? Yes, I will be standing as deputy

:49:41.:49:44.

leader. We had a meeting this morning and it was agreed that I

:49:44.:49:48.

would go forward. Thank you for your time this morning. When you

:49:48.:49:52.

think of big money-makers in the Scottish economy, what comes to

:49:52.:50:00.

mind? Foyle, whisky, tourism? Figures showed that more people are

:50:00.:50:04.

choosing to holiday here. The tourism industry generates �4

:50:04.:50:09.

billion a year and employs tens of thousands of people. But despite

:50:09.:50:12.

its economic importance, many you working the industry do not feel

:50:12.:50:22.
:50:22.:50:30.

How to turn spectators into buyers, at this year's Scottish ski and

:50:30.:50:35.

outdoor show, will be a challenge but it is one the industry is

:50:35.:50:41.

taking on. New figures reveal between January and June 2011,

:50:41.:50:48.

domestic visits or staycations, to Scotland, rose by 6%. But there has

:50:48.:50:52.

been an a % decrease in overseas visits. That is compared to an

:50:52.:50:57.

increase of 7% across the UK. international visitors have not

:50:57.:51:02.

come in the amounts we wanted but they are a small part of our

:51:02.:51:06.

overall tourism market. And if the marketing expenditure is limited,

:51:06.:51:11.

you focus market expenditure on the bulk of your tourists, who come

:51:11.:51:15.

from domestic locations. So the big focus for us has got to beat

:51:15.:51:22.

England, the rest of Scotland. That is where we have the possibility to

:51:22.:51:29.

make money in a recession. This pub in Perthshire uses a website to

:51:29.:51:35.

promote itself but despite staycations, business is slow.

:51:35.:51:40.

has been a difficult year. We have not had much business at all from

:51:40.:51:45.

Visit Scotland. We put a lot into letting people know we are here. We

:51:45.:51:50.

try our hardest to work with other businesses in the tourism trade.

:51:50.:51:54.

One business they work with his Big Tree Campervans. The tourism

:51:54.:51:59.

industry generates �4 billion a year and the mobile phone business

:51:59.:52:03.

is part of that. The owner here believes his sector should receive

:52:03.:52:09.

more support to help increase turnover. My biggest fear is we

:52:09.:52:14.

forget some of the emerging markets, camper vans, motor homes,

:52:14.:52:17.

watersports and active leisure areas, and do not focus on them

:52:17.:52:20.

enough and really understand what makes those areas tick and do

:52:20.:52:24.

things with those to bring visitors into the country. In the winter

:52:24.:52:28.

months, Scottish cities can target the conference market and weekend

:52:28.:52:33.

breaks but rural areas struggle. If the tourism industry is to thrive,

:52:33.:52:42.

it needs to ensure that people who make staycations return. We have

:52:42.:52:45.

seen the beaches, which is great but some of the attractions have

:52:45.:52:49.

been closed. I would have loved to have had a bit more of the local

:52:49.:52:54.

fish. You can see that there is a lot of fish being farmed here and

:52:54.:52:59.

there but you cannot buy it. Scottish ski results will be hoping

:52:59.:53:04.

for a long, cold and snowy winter to draw in the crowds. The growth

:53:04.:53:09.

of the staycation is having an impact across the world. It is

:53:09.:53:14.

challenging but we definitely have a local market that was helping as

:53:14.:53:19.

well. Due to the general downturn, it is obvious that the tourism

:53:19.:53:25.

sector is what is suffering. They made more funds available for us to

:53:25.:53:31.

fight. With the 2012 Olympics approaching, Scotland must compete

:53:31.:53:36.

with London for its share of the market. The spotlight will be on

:53:36.:53:40.

the UK but London specifically, but it is on the rest of the UK. There

:53:40.:53:45.

is a lot of displacement that will take place within the UK, I eat

:53:45.:53:52.

people who would like to go to London but can't because the rooms

:53:52.:53:59.

are full. -- I mean people... the World Wide economy still wobbly,

:53:59.:54:06.

the challenge Scotland faces is to hold on to these staycation as and

:54:06.:54:08.

keep the international tourism on board.

:54:08.:54:12.

We have a couple of leading businessmen in the tourism industry,

:54:12.:54:16.

Robin Worsnop, chief executive of Rabbies Small Group Tours, and also

:54:16.:54:20.

the head of Edinburgh's Tourism Action Group, and the managing

:54:20.:54:26.

director of Crieff Hydro, Stephen Leckie, who is also the chair of

:54:26.:54:31.

the Scottish Tourism Forum. Stephen Leckie, give us an idea of how well

:54:31.:54:35.

Scotland has done in the last season. It seems the UK market is

:54:35.:54:40.

propping up the industry. The most recent statistics tell us that

:54:40.:54:43.

Scotland has performed very well this year and what am hearing is

:54:43.:54:49.

that in central Scotland, that is so. Up north and in rural areas it

:54:49.:54:55.

is a bit more tricky. In Crieff Hydro we are having a good year and

:54:55.:54:58.

that is after a significant investment in the last two years.

:54:58.:55:03.

Robin, things like fuel prices must have an impact on people travelling

:55:03.:55:08.

up, for example, from the south of England. Yes, it is definitely

:55:08.:55:12.

having an effect in the roar parts of the country. The central belt is

:55:12.:55:16.

doing well. I was surprised by the international figures that came out

:55:16.:55:19.

for the six months of the year because our experience has been

:55:20.:55:24.

completely the opposite of that and people I have been speaking to have

:55:24.:55:29.

been doing particularly well in this area. And we did not have the

:55:29.:55:34.

ash cloud disaster of April hitting us in 2011. We didn't have the

:55:34.:55:38.

sunshine either. I was very surprised to see these figures.

:55:38.:55:42.

What have you learned from these international tourists who come

:55:42.:55:45.

over here. What do they tell you about why they are choosing

:55:45.:55:55.

Scotland? I believe we have been a national competitive competitor

:55:55.:55:59.

since the Stirling devalued against the euro. Scotland has iconic

:55:59.:56:06.

assets. The Edinburgh festivals, the Highlands, the scenery. And the

:56:06.:56:11.

friendliness of the people here is a superb thing that visitors want

:56:11.:56:17.

to enjoy. Stephen Leckie, there seems to be some sense that lots of

:56:17.:56:20.

folk who work in the tourism industry think they do not get the

:56:20.:56:27.

attention they deserve. Is that your Gazette didn't -- perception?

:56:28.:56:34.

A joint this industry 30 years ago and even then there was this chap

:56:34.:56:38.

but tourism is one of the key drivers for economic growth in

:56:38.:56:44.

Scotland. Tourism has devolved and that is good news. We have a very

:56:44.:56:48.

able Visit Scotland marketing Scotland and that makes Scotland

:56:48.:56:51.

the envy of the rest of the world for having a large publicly-funded

:56:51.:56:54.

marketing body and then it is for the Private Business, people like

:56:54.:56:59.

me and Robin, to work that out and persuade people to come to Scotland.

:56:59.:57:04.

Her attitudes then changed to Visit Scotland, because for a long time

:57:04.:57:08.

the debate was that people who worked in the tourism sector did

:57:08.:57:14.

not feel it delivered for them? Has that changed? Perhaps there are

:57:14.:57:18.

some really high expectations of what Visit Scotland can achieve for

:57:18.:57:27.

the industry. In some terms it is measured at �4 billion. Other

:57:27.:57:32.

measurements are �11.5 billion. It cannot be expected to deliver

:57:32.:57:37.

everything for the industry itself. I believe that those who are doing

:57:37.:57:41.

well have invested heavily in their customer experience and in their

:57:41.:57:46.

product, and they are getting the word of mouth or what is commonly

:57:46.:57:50.

referred to as the world of mouth, driving their business forward

:57:50.:57:55.

today. Stephen Leckie, how do you hold on to these staycations,

:57:55.:57:59.

because the minute the economy goes up, people will think, I tell you

:57:59.:58:07.

what, I would rather go and see the sunshine? In Crieff Hydro, it is

:58:07.:58:10.

not just about giving customers the bed space and food but many other

:58:10.:58:14.

things in our result, persuading them that Crieff Hydro is the Eric

:58:14.:58:18.

Joyce in Scotland to keep coming back to. So is that focusing on

:58:18.:58:23.

service? It is about high quality, value for money, Investment back

:58:23.:58:27.

into the product and the staff, having Chris Tapp, happy staff, who

:58:27.:58:34.

want to look after our customers. - - having the good staff. A lot of

:58:34.:58:37.

people have complaints about service. They do, but I think that

:58:37.:58:42.

is often people with in Scotland who have a very high expectation.

:58:42.:58:46.

When you look at surveys for people who visit the country, they show

:58:46.:58:50.

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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