23/10/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


23/10/2011

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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This week on the Politics Show: where it does this man stand on the

:00:07.:00:16.

euro crisis? Ed Miliband joins us alive. And on the Politics Show

:00:16.:00:19.

Scotland, The First Minister Alex Salmond, fresh from firing up the

:00:19.:00:22.

party, will a pledge to fight full square for independence in the

:00:22.:00:26.

coming referendum. But will independence light also be on offer

:00:26.:00:32.

to the Scottish voters - and who is going to tell us what it is? The

:00:32.:00:34.

First Minister says only full blown independence will deliver for

:00:34.:00:36.

Scotland and the current alternatives just don't make the

:00:36.:00:46.
:00:46.:00:49.

grade. Fiscal responsibility and real

:00:49.:00:55.

economic power is a legitimate proposal. We could introduce

:00:55.:01:00.

competitive a business tax and fair taxation. All good and necessary,

:01:00.:01:10.
:01:10.:01:10.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1578 seconds

:01:10.:27:28.

He raised huge amounts of money for the NSPCC. An excellent example of

:27:28.:27:34.

corporate responsibility. You said you wanted Cameron in

:27:34.:27:40.

Brussels and not Australia. But the Commonwealth summit, they will

:27:40.:27:45.

expect him to produce �6 billion worth of new business. A chance to

:27:45.:27:52.

engage with India. 53 countries, a modernising agenda. Turning the

:27:52.:27:58.

Commonwealth in to a 21st century organisation. And you just say, up

:27:58.:28:07.

viewers. I definitely did not say that. But

:28:07.:28:11.

when there are crucial decisions be made about jobs and growth in this

:28:11.:28:15.

country the idea that the Prime Minister can be here to squabble

:28:15.:28:21.

with his party on Monday but then has to be -- but then cannot be in

:28:21.:28:26.

Brussels on Wednesday to fight for the country's economic interest is

:28:26.:28:33.

the wrong choice. Can I ask, on the vote in the House

:28:33.:28:38.

of Commons, surely the problem is a back support for a referendum.

:28:38.:28:42.

Surely there is a democratic deficit caused by the Government of

:28:42.:28:46.

which you where a member saying there would be a referendum on the

:28:46.:28:51.

European constitution. Then a win that was jumped by the people of

:28:51.:29:01.
:29:01.:29:02.

France and Netherlands it came back with a different name. -- when it

:29:02.:29:11.

was junked. I am very clear about this. You do

:29:11.:29:18.

not have to pay to play, as you say. Gordon Brown, at an important

:29:18.:29:25.

summit in 2009, was part of the key decision-making. That is what and

:29:25.:29:30.

responsible Prime Minister should do. Force at Burton's issues onto

:29:30.:29:38.

the agenda. I do not accept your comments on the referendum. --

:29:38.:29:48.
:29:48.:29:52.

force Bratton's interests. -- Britain's interests. Some of these

:29:52.:29:57.

issues reflect the way Europe has done business.

:29:57.:30:03.

Finally, on Libya. We saw Tony Blair and Gordon Brown embrace

:30:03.:30:08.

Gadaffi. David Cameron has overthrown him. Our congratulations

:30:08.:30:15.

to you? Definitely. That is why I supported

:30:15.:30:19.

him. And I am proud that we supported an intervention which was

:30:19.:30:22.

not an army of occupation but which helped the Libyan people shake

:30:22.:30:32.
:30:32.:30:35.

Welcome to the politics show in Scotland. Coming up: the First

:30:35.:30:42.

Minister, live from Inverness. We will ask, are there no limits to

:30:42.:30:46.

his referendum options? And a disability campaigners on the

:30:46.:30:51.

streets fighting for welfare reforms. They say they are enforced

:30:51.:30:58.

and to poverty and isolation. First, the news. The SNP finance secretary

:30:58.:31:03.

John Swinney will tell delegates in in a mess that Scotland would

:31:03.:31:08.

become of the world's richest -- six richest country if it took a

:31:08.:31:14.

fair share of North Sea oil. Essential argument will be that our

:31:14.:31:20.

economic prospects are being held back by the union. He will say that

:31:20.:31:25.

if you give Scotland a geographical share of oil revenues it could be

:31:25.:31:30.

six richest nation in the world. The United Kingdom would be 16th.

:31:30.:31:36.

And also on the topic of money the SNP will disclose a legacy of

:31:36.:31:41.

nearly �1 million from the estate of their late poet Edwin Morgan.

:31:41.:31:45.

They intended to spend that primarily on the referendum

:31:45.:31:52.

campaign. The first passenger service -- ferry service sailed out

:31:52.:31:58.

of Harris this morning heading for Uig. Caledonian MacBrayne had been

:31:58.:32:03.

accused of ignoring local people who opposed sailings on the Sabbath.

:32:03.:32:08.

They claim they went ahead with the crossing only after consulting the

:32:08.:32:12.

local community. A memorial will be held this afternoon to commemorate

:32:12.:32:18.

the victims of the Clarkston Toll gas explosion for 30 years ago. A

:32:18.:32:22.

massive amount of gas escaped from beneath the shops and more than 100

:32:22.:32:27.

people were injured. And the weather, the best of the brightness

:32:27.:32:34.

over Orkney and the north coast. Mild and a breezy tonight. Winds

:32:34.:32:44.
:32:44.:32:54.

reaching a gale force in the north. After the Inverness conference

:32:54.:32:59.

independence is being shouted from the podium by all the key speakers.

:32:59.:33:03.

The First Minister claimed the party will campaign a full square

:33:03.:33:12.

for independence in the referendum. But what is that lurking in the

:33:13.:33:19.

wings which could muddy the waters? A devolution and Max auction there

:33:19.:33:24.

may also be on offer. It is proving popular with the general public

:33:24.:33:29.

according to the polls. Is it an insurance policy for the party or a

:33:29.:33:36.

big mistake? I am joined now by the First Minister. Thank you very much

:33:36.:33:43.

indeed for talking to us. There is a slight delay on the line but we

:33:43.:33:50.

will be able to work that out between us. Well a devolution Max

:33:50.:33:56.

option definitely be offered to the Scottish public in a referendum?

:33:56.:34:02.

What will definitely be on the ballot paper is a yes/no question

:34:02.:34:09.

to independence as spelt out on the White Paper. But I am open to

:34:09.:34:14.

including a second question that on what is called devolution Macs or

:34:14.:34:19.

fiscal autonomy. But opponents of that must come forward and give

:34:19.:34:23.

their detail that we are already providing on independence so that

:34:23.:34:30.

people can judge on that question also. I am in favour of increasing

:34:30.:34:34.

options to the people of Scotland. Limiting choice is something that

:34:34.:34:40.

Westminster politicians do. But from the SNP point of view a yes/no

:34:40.:34:45.

question will definitely be on the agenda and I will campaign on

:34:45.:34:50.

favour. When they you talk about giving the

:34:50.:34:57.

Scots the auctions, and a number of options, when we look at what

:34:57.:35:01.

Nicola Sturgeon said, she said, fell on nationalists, we have an

:35:01.:35:07.

opportunity that many have worked hard for over years. A once in a

:35:07.:35:11.

generation opportunity for independence and it is down to us

:35:11.:35:16.

to grasp it. Some supporters may believe that by offering fiscal

:35:16.:35:24.

autonomy you throw away your best chance at gaining independence.

:35:24.:35:29.

It is in no great surprise. That was the line we took in the last

:35:29.:35:36.

Parliament. No surprise to anybody. I am just sticking to what was said

:35:36.:35:42.

during the election campaign. We received an overwhelming election

:35:42.:35:46.

majority and want to keep faith with the people who gave us it. So

:35:46.:35:50.

we will bring forward the independence referendum in the

:35:50.:35:54.

timescale we said during the election campaign. Nicola Sturgeon

:35:54.:35:59.

was correct to say we are confident about the result. We will have to

:35:59.:36:04.

work hard but that is something the party is good at doing.

:36:04.:36:09.

But my point is that most people in the polls support fiscal autonomy.

:36:09.:36:13.

Allowing that to go forward as a question are lessons are your

:36:13.:36:19.

chances of full-blown independence. Potentially.

:36:19.:36:26.

I do not accept that. For two reasons. First of all, I do not pay

:36:26.:36:32.

attention to opinion polls. But the last two which tested this issue

:36:32.:36:38.

showed independence in the lead. They also show the SNP in an

:36:38.:36:42.

extraordinary lead. And we have been here before in Scottish

:36:42.:36:49.

politics. Their wealth to straight questions in 1997 - do you want a

:36:49.:36:54.

parliament, on a parliament with economic powers? Lot of people said

:36:54.:37:00.

that the second question would not be passed but it was a yes/Yes vote.

:37:00.:37:05.

So why do not believe that this logic of another auction at

:37:05.:37:12.

limiting people's chances of voting for the first holds up to scrutiny.

:37:12.:37:17.

It is up to the people of Scotland to look at the choices before them

:37:17.:37:24.

and vote accordingly. Do you accept that in order to make

:37:24.:37:29.

informed choices the people of Scotland will have to have far more

:37:29.:37:34.

details from all of the parties involved about what the options

:37:34.:37:38.

actually are and their consequences could be?

:37:38.:37:44.

Yes, I do. That is why the process involves the publication of white

:37:44.:37:51.

papers. That explains things in great detail. It is a consultative

:37:51.:37:55.

referendum as it has to be. So we look at the White Paper and Basque

:37:56.:38:02.

a question based on it. Again, as we did in 1997. There is nothing

:38:03.:38:06.

innovative about proceeding in that fashion and the Scottish Parliament

:38:06.:38:11.

is perfectly capable of doing exactly that.

:38:11.:38:17.

Can you, at this stage, answered all the questions? Scotland's share

:38:17.:38:24.

of the national debt is �77 million. You will have to keep bond markets

:38:24.:38:29.

on side in an independent Scotland. Why would they favour a less

:38:29.:38:33.

austere approach to spending than the Westminster government is fit -

:38:33.:38:39.

- producing at the moment? They there are two reasons our

:38:39.:38:43.

fiscal position would be stronger. We have been in a stronger position

:38:44.:38:49.

even within the confines of the UK during the last five years. People

:38:49.:38:53.

in the bond markets will pay attention to your immediate balance

:38:53.:39:00.

when weighing up your indebtedness. And whilst the UK is in debt to one

:39:00.:39:04.

that trillion of pounds - I will say that again, one that trillion

:39:04.:39:14.
:39:14.:39:14.

pounds - Scotland's share would have to be put up again. So the

:39:14.:39:18.

second thing of the bond markets would look at is what the assets of

:39:18.:39:24.

a country where in comparison with the liabilities. As John Swinney

:39:24.:39:28.

will explain this afternoon there are few other countries in the

:39:28.:39:33.

world which have few -- more assets in terms of oil and gas and other

:39:33.:39:38.

natural resources than Scotland. Our biggest resource is the

:39:38.:39:44.

ingenuity and talent of our people. It will because a substantial and

:39:44.:39:49.

economic success. You are saying that oil revenues

:39:49.:39:52.

would steady nerves in the bond markets and pay for innovative

:39:52.:39:58.

programmes. And you are also spoken about a trust fund for future

:39:58.:40:04.

generations. These are three objectives for won the pot of money.

:40:04.:40:10.

You cannot have a triple spend on this.

:40:10.:40:13.

We end you look at the last five the years and take the relative

:40:13.:40:16.

surplus compared to the United Kingdom, if you had chosen to put

:40:17.:40:23.

that sockless - instead of disappearing down the whole of the

:40:23.:40:28.

London Treasury - if you had created an oil fund as the

:40:28.:40:33.

Norwegians did 15 years ago, it would already be at several million

:40:33.:40:37.

pounds and the interest would be making a substantial contribution

:40:37.:40:43.

to the budget balance. -- several billion pounds. The biggest failure

:40:43.:40:47.

of oil and gas in the United Kingdom in the last four decades

:40:47.:40:52.

has been that the failure to establish an oil fund as the

:40:52.:40:56.

Norwegians dead in such spectacular fashion. From small beginnings that

:40:56.:41:06.

is now worth 300 billion of pounds. But that is my point. You cannot

:41:06.:41:10.

save it and spend it. That point I am making is that if

:41:10.:41:15.

you had done that over the last five years - and this was

:41:15.:41:19.

demonstrated during the election campaign with people showed their

:41:19.:41:24.

satisfaction with the SNP over five years - if we had put that we would

:41:24.:41:28.

have a substantial surplus when compared with the United Kingdom.

:41:28.:41:33.

The interest from the oil fund would be contributing to the budget

:41:33.:41:39.

balance of Scotland. The lesson of Orwell and pension funds in the

:41:39.:41:44.

Norway is you can start from small beginnings. -- oil and pension

:41:44.:41:52.

funds. But from small acorns, mighty oaks grow.

:41:52.:41:57.

There is a sense that whoever owns devolution of Max, because of its

:41:57.:42:04.

popularity, would be on the front foot. Is there any way that the SNP

:42:05.:42:11.

can own independence and own a devolution of Max?

:42:11.:42:17.

I am not interested in ownership of these things. I am interested any

:42:17.:42:23.

illegitimate proposal. Whether it is Henry McLeish, Malcolm Chisholm,

:42:23.:42:28.

a respected Labour MSPs, or the reform Scotland Group, either way,

:42:28.:42:34.

they must produce a proposition which can be put to the people in a

:42:34.:42:40.

yes/no question. But is it an insurance policy for

:42:40.:42:45.

the SNP? People might say that If fiscal autonomy goes through you

:42:45.:42:49.

are still moving, more gradually, in their direction that you want to

:42:49.:42:56.

go. Do you see it that way? No. I am saying that I am not

:42:56.:43:01.

ruling out the options available to people in Scotland but what we said

:43:01.:43:05.

during the election campaign was that we would bring forward the

:43:05.:43:10.

independence referendum. We're going to do that. We said we are

:43:10.:43:14.

open to fiscal autonomy and if that can come forward and a crystallised

:43:14.:43:20.

fashion I am friendly too often people an auction. My only

:43:20.:43:24.

requirement is that people get the opportunity to vote for

:43:24.:43:30.

independence. Apart from that I want to open up options not try to

:43:30.:43:36.

for close them. Say, hypothetically, fiscal

:43:36.:43:41.

autonomy wins the day. You are still and a majority government.

:43:41.:43:47.

How often do we come back to the independence referendum?

:43:47.:43:53.

I have pointed out any number of interviews that in my view the

:43:53.:43:58.

independence referendum is once in a generation. Luckily, I think

:43:58.:44:05.

people will vote Yes and this will be the independence generation.

:44:05.:44:10.

How should you or MPs to vote tomorrow in the EU referendum

:44:10.:44:16.

debate. Presumably you cannot vote against a referendum.

:44:16.:44:21.

The group at Westminster will come to its own mind before the vote.

:44:21.:44:27.

That is how we work in the SNP. But a very strong argument is that to

:44:27.:44:33.

vote for a referendum it must have been in your manifesto. The

:44:33.:44:37.

Scottish Government has legitimacy in putting forward this referendum

:44:37.:44:42.

because we campaigned for it and won an overwhelming majority. The

:44:42.:44:47.

trouble with the euro referendum is the only people who stated they

:44:47.:44:51.

wanted one where the Liberal Democrats. Anybody else put in it

:44:51.:44:55.

for what is doubt Senate on the people without informing them of it

:44:55.:45:01.

in the election last year. That is just opportunistic politics. I was

:45:01.:45:09.

at, incidentally, amused to hear today that there was Sable --

:45:09.:45:13.

sabre-rattling from William head. He said we could not have a

:45:14.:45:17.

referendum in Europe because he wanted to concentrate on the

:45:17.:45:27.
:45:27.:45:31.

economy. They are in disarray in To clarify and confirm, the

:45:31.:45:37.

Scottish referendum date - 2014? will be in the second half of the

:45:37.:45:41.

parliamentary term. It is quite true that the second half starts

:45:41.:45:47.

and 2014 but we have not specify I think it was to you yourself that I

:45:47.:45:51.

said in the election campaign we will argue for the referendum in

:45:51.:45:56.

the second half of the parliament. Having promised that to you and the

:45:56.:46:01.

Scottish people, I can hardly go back on that. That is why I hope

:46:01.:46:04.

you would confirm it was 2014 because of that special

:46:04.:46:06.

relationship but we will have to leave that.

:46:06.:46:11.

Thank you. Hundreds of disabled people have been gathering in

:46:11.:46:13.

Edinburgh this weekend to protest against the UK Government's planned

:46:13.:46:15.

reforms to disability benefits. Campaigners say they're terrified

:46:15.:46:17.

that proposed welfare changes and forthcoming local authority cuts

:46:18.:46:22.

will push Scotland's disabled into further poverty, isolation and debt.

:46:22.:46:25.

Similar demonstrations have been taking place elsewhere in the UK.

:46:25.:46:35.
:46:35.:46:43.

Here's Christine Macleod. People with disabilities and the

:46:43.:46:46.

about proposed welfare reforms. They are fearful that way, more

:46:46.:46:51.

than any other group, will bear the brunt of government spending cuts.

:46:51.:46:54.

They are terrified that money will be cut to the extent they have to

:46:54.:46:58.

make choices between food and heating. Choice is that we do not

:46:58.:47:04.

expect people do have to take in a civilised state. Protesters here

:47:04.:47:08.

say it/is the disability benefits could see a lot of money cut over

:47:08.:47:13.

the next four years. That is before they know what the impact of

:47:13.:47:16.

forthcoming local authority cutbacks will mean for their care

:47:16.:47:22.

charges and services. In particular, many worry that changes to

:47:22.:47:25.

disability living allowance and employment support allowance will

:47:25.:47:30.

hugely dent their income. DLA is to be replaced by personal

:47:30.:47:35.

independence payments. A benefit the Government intends to cut by as

:47:35.:47:41.

much as 20%. 59-year-old Paul McCann from Helensburgh has a

:47:41.:47:45.

learning difficulty and lives in supported accommodation with is

:47:45.:47:49.

severely disabled life. He is afraid he will not qualify for as

:47:49.:47:54.

much money as he did under DLA, forcing him to make tough choices

:47:54.:48:03.

over what he and his wife can afford to eat. I go, this is my

:48:03.:48:11.

shopping list. Eggs, milk, soup. Not a very balanced diet and you

:48:11.:48:19.

cannot live off of cups of tea. year-old David Nicol has cerebral

:48:19.:48:23.

palsy and lives in supported accommodation in Edinburgh. He

:48:23.:48:26.

fears the proposed changes will take away his mobility and the

:48:26.:48:36.
:48:36.:48:41.

independence that goes with it. They cut the De La so much that it

:48:41.:48:51.
:48:51.:48:55.

is impossible for me to have a wheelchair or pay for things. --

:48:55.:49:04.

DLA. Fears had been heightened they will lose benefits they are

:49:04.:49:08.

entitled to. The assessment test has been widely criticised for up

:49:08.:49:13.

rejecting people when the appeals process is later proved them wrong.

:49:13.:49:19.

It is wrong that two million people have been at written-off to a life

:49:19.:49:23.

on benefits. That needs to change in people be judged on what they

:49:23.:49:32.

can do rather than what they cannot. More protests against disability

:49:32.:49:39.

cuts. This time not in Scotland, but the Netherlands, where they are

:49:39.:49:44.

cutting care budgets by 50%. Could this be a path more countries are

:49:44.:49:47.

forced to take in times of austerity.

:49:47.:49:50.

In the studio we have Pam Duncan from Inclusion Scotland and Andrew

:49:50.:49:53.

Lowe who is Director of Social Work for Borders Council and also

:49:53.:50:00.

President of the Association of Directors of Social Work. Thank you

:50:00.:50:07.

both. I know you're horse because you're on a demonstration yesterday.

:50:07.:50:13.

When we are looking at this, how significant the you think it is in

:50:13.:50:18.

terms of disabled people's rights? Disabled people tell us at

:50:18.:50:21.

Inclusion Scotland this is the biggest attack they have faced in

:50:21.:50:25.

40 years. They are facing the double whammy of the cuts as they

:50:25.:50:29.

are disproportionately affected. Not just specific cuts to

:50:29.:50:35.

disability benefits, such as the 20% reduction of disability living

:50:36.:50:39.

allowance, but the impact of the Independent living Fund closing its

:50:39.:50:48.

doors. They are also facing huge impact to the cuts in other areas.

:50:48.:50:53.

General welfare reform, the housing benefit, and there really genuinely

:50:53.:50:58.

facing a disproportionate impact on them. When we hear these things and

:50:58.:51:02.

everybody says they have to take a cut in their budgets, what impact

:51:02.:51:08.

does this actually have one real people's lives? Disabled people

:51:08.:51:11.

have been coming together under the banner of the hardest hit because

:51:11.:51:17.

they genuinely are the hardest hit. We don't have the broader shoulders

:51:17.:51:25.

to bear the brunt. 47.5 per cent of disabled people live in poverty and

:51:25.:51:29.

that many disabled people and work have their jobs under threat as a

:51:29.:51:33.

result of redundancies. The majority of those who do work work

:51:33.:51:37.

in the public sector and their jobs under threat. For those who don't

:51:37.:51:42.

work, the majority of disabled people, face cuts in their pocket.

:51:43.:51:49.

They are terrified of the impact of the cuts. Presumably, and an

:51:49.:51:52.

intensely competitive job market it is more and more difficult for

:51:52.:51:57.

disabled people to get work? A lot of the cuts are focused on what

:51:57.:52:02.

people can do rather than what they cannot. That is the language that

:52:02.:52:07.

disabled people have used for a long time. We have spoken about

:52:07.:52:10.

being contributed to society and what we need to get there. The

:52:10.:52:15.

answer is not to pull the rug from under us. I have seen a statement

:52:15.:52:18.

from the Department of Work and Pensions that speaks about how much

:52:19.:52:24.

they spend on disabled people. There are already huge inequalities

:52:24.:52:30.

in terms of poverty and access to housing. That �40 billion simply

:52:30.:52:35.

does not cover the genuine experience that disabled people are

:52:35.:52:42.

having. It is also another message that disabled people cannot

:52:42.:52:45.

contribute to society and that is something we need to start

:52:45.:52:51.

challenging. When we look to the funding, there is a statement

:52:51.:52:57.

amount of money. Do you think it is being used appropriately just now

:52:57.:53:01.

are could there be more grassroots initiatives? This is the obligation

:53:01.:53:05.

of this issue. Very few people doubt we need welfare reform

:53:05.:53:08.

because at the moment that is complicated and not always

:53:08.:53:14.

equitably distributed. That being said, there is a complicated over

:53:14.:53:18.

layer of a need to make savings. Sometimes one is used to disguise

:53:18.:53:24.

the other. If you say to me, is it necessary to make these reforms, I

:53:24.:53:28.

don't think these reforms are necessary and we should not be

:53:28.:53:32.

putting a price on the independence of people with disabilities. It is

:53:32.:53:39.

outrageous. Every local authority is required to promote social

:53:39.:53:47.

welfare. That is our founding statute and what we have to deliver.

:53:48.:53:55.

Clearly, there is a challenge but we have to find a way. We will

:53:55.:53:59.

continue to try to find ways to make sure that we can promote the

:53:59.:54:04.

independence of people. It is quite interesting that if you don't, what

:54:04.:54:09.

we're seeing in the English courts, is people going into court and

:54:09.:54:14.

saying this is not a case of I don't want to do it but I am

:54:14.:54:17.

obliged under statute to do this. Could we see more of this in

:54:17.:54:23.

Scotland? A this is clearly an issue that could become a litigious

:54:23.:54:30.

issues. That would be regrettable. The coalition government in

:54:30.:54:33.

Westminster has got enormous challenge is to meet. There is a

:54:33.:54:38.

need for reform but we have to find a way through that does not throw

:54:38.:54:43.

people back into the 1970s. I was in the House of Lords for the

:54:43.:54:49.

debate on the second reading of the Reform Bill. Ba and S Campbell,

:54:49.:54:56.

another contributor to public life in the UK, was saying it my life is

:54:56.:55:00.

built on stores. If you take them away, it collapses. While

:55:00.:55:05.

understanding the need for reform, we are passionate about the need to

:55:05.:55:08.

retain the place of people and control of their own lives and we

:55:08.:55:15.

have to find ways to do that. that is so intensely political,

:55:15.:55:19.

will you see Michael Moore? We have asked Michael Moore if he would set

:55:19.:55:23.

a meeting up with Mario Mullah and disabled people's organisations and

:55:23.:55:26.

Scotland to talk about the issues so they can hear it from the

:55:26.:55:32.

horse's mouth. So they can have an understanding of the genuine fear

:55:32.:55:37.

disabled people are experiencing. I mentioned there is one woman

:55:37.:55:44.

yesterday so terrified that the cuts being made, as well as the

:55:44.:55:48.

rise in charges over community care, that she did not want to take her

:55:48.:55:55.

dog with her to the rally in case someone judged her for it. That to

:55:55.:56:01.

me is a measure of where we are in society. We have asked Mario Mullah

:56:01.:56:04.

and Michael Moore to come to Scotland to talk to disabled people

:56:04.:56:09.

but that has not yet come to fruition. We would invite them to

:56:09.:56:13.

come to Scotland and talk to disabled people about these issues.

:56:13.:56:16.

We have to lead that there as we are out of time but we will come

:56:16.:56:26.
:56:26.:56:30.

back to it. It set it says here The lovely

:56:30.:56:37.

Angus Macleod from the Times has been up in Inverness. You are here

:56:37.:56:41.

because of your expertise in things political. What you think about

:56:41.:56:47.

devolution Max being on a referendum paper? Good for the SNP?

:56:47.:56:52.

I think what Alex Salmond is trying to do here is. The way for the

:56:52.:56:56.

opposition parties. He obviously wants the opposition parties to

:56:56.:57:00.

embrace some concept of evolution MACS in order to get himself

:57:00.:57:06.

political cover with his own party, to put it on the referendum.

:57:06.:57:11.

Whether end of the opposition parties Gaspar embrace that

:57:11.:57:15.

opportunity is a moot point. One of the problems of evolution Max is no

:57:16.:57:20.

one quite knows what it is. There are several questions bouncing

:57:20.:57:27.

around stretching back to the steel commission of 10 or 11 years ago. I

:57:27.:57:32.

think he probably wants a two option a referendum. The difficulty

:57:32.:57:37.

Alex Salmond may have is, I was interested in his parallels with

:57:38.:57:44.

1997, when the death Aleutian referendum that year. The parallel

:57:44.:57:48.

is not quite right. The first question there was about the

:57:48.:57:53.

principle of setting up a Scottish Parliament. The second was what

:57:53.:57:58.

else do you want as well as the parliament? This referendum, he

:57:58.:58:04.

seems to be going towards two alternatives. Not directly opposed

:58:04.:58:08.

to each other but certainly two alternatives for voters to choose

:58:08.:58:14.

between. We are almost out of time, but wherever it goes, we have to be

:58:14.:58:20.

clear about what the options are. Absolutely, but that is the

:58:20.:58:25.

opportunity for the opposition parties. They might then be on the

:58:25.:58:32.

right side of the argument in terms of evolution Max. The SNP have to

:58:32.:58:41.

tell us what evolution Max's. only that, but people like reform

:58:41.:58:44.

Scotland and this deal Commission have reduced their own models. It

:58:44.:58:49.

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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