06/11/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


06/11/2011

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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Transcript


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This week on the Politics Show: Late on Friday I stood outside the

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parliament in Greece, watching Papandreou face down his in peas in

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a knife-edge confidence vote. He won. Tomorrow the international

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markets will give their verdict. So is this Greek tragedy beginning its

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final act? Does Ed Miliband support the St

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Paul's protesters here at home? He says this morning that only the

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reckless would ignore the danger signals.

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And David Thomson is in the skies over Glasgow.

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The SNP believe it is time for Scotland to fly solo. Would this

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have a prop -- have an effect on how we will govern?

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On Politics Show Scotland: More on the eurozone crisis, and we will

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speak to the new leader of the Scottish Conservatives, and asking

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Ming Campbell why the Lib Dems are having another commission on home

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1955 seconds

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It is about controlling Scotland's resources. If Scotland was

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independent now, we would be the 6th most prosperous comp -- country

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in the economic dog there are many arguments about having a fairer and

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:34:07.:34:11.

more just society. And not been governed by a...

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If offered to an auction between Labour rule or Tory rule -- home

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rule or Tory rule in Scotland, most would vote for home rule. RBS and

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HBOS would have gone up in flames if you were independent, and with

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their collective liabilities, 30 times the size of Scotland's GDP.

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It would be in a worse state than Ireland and Greece and Portugal.

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in a better state than UK, Denmark and Finland, which are better off

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than the United Kingdom. We may have regulated the Bank's better,

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rather than making some catastrophic mistakes like

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Westminster. Maybe be be joining in with the international community to

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try to stabilise finances. The reality is, of Scotland became an

:35:05.:35:10.

independent company at the moment, her resources to population, we

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would be the 6th most prosperous countries. Not just because of oil

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:35:24.:35:26.

and gas resources, but that Scottish renewables are also a

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large source of wealth, and to not try to talk -- we do not try to

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talk down our nation. One of the interesting things is,

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would the end of the signalled by devo-max? Well, there is no need

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for a Barnett formula If you have full and fiscal responsibility. On

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that basis, we would be hoping for your advocacy and support. If we

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were an independent Scotland, that happens as a matter of course.

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English people are pretty supportive of Scotland's

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aspirations. But the Westminster political class is not. If they

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keep moaning about subsidised Scots, why are they not supporting the

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campaign for financial independence? Surely they should be

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the cheerleaders. Who's going to be able to Fulton the referendum? You

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have talked about the Scottish nation, but will Scottish people

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who live in England and live abroad be able to vote? The mandates from

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the voter's role of Scotland. That is people resident of Scotland, and

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also includes people abroad who have been registered over the last

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10 years. So it is the taxation base for Scotland. It does not

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matter where you are born, it is whether you are contributing to

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Scotland as a country. You could not have registered overseas

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voters? We do have registered overseas voters at the present

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moment. That is on the voters' roll. That is not unusual or different.

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That is the basis on which we had the referendum on devolution. It

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will be the people on the voters' roll in Scotland. I will leave you

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to a beautiful day. Thank you. Later in the programme, viewers in

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Scotland can hear what the Scottish Conservatives' leader makes of all

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:38:05.:38:12.

Welcome. Where now for the eurozone crisis? And what will be the ripple

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effect for Scotland? It is all change in the Scottish Tory party

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leadership, but are there thoughtful new policies to detoxify

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the brand, or was it just seemed old message delivered by a new

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face? And how will Ruth Davidson lead a

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divided party forward? I am at the National Liberal Club

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in London, wondering what the latest Home Rule Commission has

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four. -- is for. We will be looking at why teachers

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are planning to strike for the first time in 25 years. Here is the

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lunchtime news with Sally McNair. A seven-year-old boy has died from

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his injuries following a car crash on the A9 in Perthshire. The child

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was seriously injured in the collision north of Bankfoot on the

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Perth-to-Inverness road. A 31-year- old man, who was in the passenger

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seat, also died in the crash on Friday evening.

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A senior QC has branded the Scottish Conservatives

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"dysfunctional morons" and resigned from the party. Paul McBride who

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was a justice adviser to Annabel Goldie resigned just hours after

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Ruth Davidson was elected the party's new leader. He insists his

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departure has nothing to do with Ms Davidson, he is resigning over the

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Scottish Tories performance on criminal justice.

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If you were out enjoying the fireworks last night, spare a

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thought for the people of Oban. A technical hitch saw the community

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fireworks all released at the same time during the town's display on

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Friday night. The event usually lasts around half an hour, but it

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was over in around a minute! The organisers had to apologise to a

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crowd of hundreds, and explain that they had had their lot. And the

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weather: Glorious day across most of the country, and set to stay

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that way with some good sunny spells developing. Across the

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Western Isles and Skye, it will be cloudier at times. Temperatures

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will peak around 12 Celsius, and winds will be light. The

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combination of clear skies and light winds will allow mist and fog

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to re-form again after dusk. There is more from the newsroom at 6.15pm.

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In the meantime, back to Isabel for the rest of the Politics Show.

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As Greece remains in political deadlock over its debt crisis, the

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prospect of it defaulting and dropping out of the euro is the

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ongoing nightmare scenario for political leaders across Europe. If

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Greece goes bankrupt, economists predict a new credit crunch. Even

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less cash for banks to lend to businesses and individuals would

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have a direct and highly damaging impact on Scottish manufacturing

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and exports. The UK Government is prepared to increase funding to the

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IMF's bailout fund, up to �40 billion.

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No country in the global economy can be an island. We are an

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enormously dependent world. We have to play a role as one of the

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largest economies in the world, we set up the IMF to make sure that

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there was a mechanism to support countries. To be clear, you are

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happy with the money that we give to the IMF going to Greece? I am.

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That has been agreed. The Greek Prime Minister George

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Papandreou will meet the leader of the opposition Andonis Samarass

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later today to try to break the political deadlock. Mr Samarass is

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so far refusing to join a government of national unity,

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despite this being a condition of further financial support being

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given to Greece. Without this money, economists predict Greece could be

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bankrupt and out of the euro by Christmas. In our Edinburgh studio

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is the SNP MEP Alyn Smith. And with me here is David Martin the Labour

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Member of the European Parliament. Thank you for coming in. Do you

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think a default is inevitable? There are considerable problems

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with the Greek economy. It is arguable that default has already

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happened. The fact that the Prime Minister of Greece is trying to

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form a coalition unity government is a positive step, but I fear that

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it is too little, too late. It is dreadful news for the people of

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Greece and the wider European economy. More money is going into

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the IMF, and David Cameron said that will not necessarily go to be

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allowed the eurozone, but Danny Alexander says it will. We did make

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more sense if they international bank became a last resort? It is

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very clear that we do not have a crisis over the euro, as such. The

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eurozone is stronger than the British economy. We have an

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internal banking problem inside the euro-zone. It is helping the Greek

:42:57.:43:01.

banking system. If we do not help that, that will have an impact on

:43:01.:43:08.

the French, German and eventually on the UK banking system. If we do

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not settle the Greek financial banking crisis, we have a real

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problem. I agree, that we are at one minute to midnight, where it is

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not clear if this is able to come through this crisis on its own.

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Greece does not, and we have a freeze on lending, with a massive

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loss of confidence, and potentially a domino effect with other

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countries like Spain, Italy and Ireland, what effect could that

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have in Scotland? People tend to think that this is an argument --

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Academicals argument a long way away. It is not. The banks are

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committed to vary his debt to that they are holding already for Greece.

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:44:00.:44:02.

-- the... We do need to see much more co-ordinated international

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action across the eurozone and wider across the IMF, than we have

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seen today. The G20 summit we just saw was depressing. Those of us

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looking for answers, we did not see any. What would you make of the

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role of the European Central Bank in the central issue about what

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role it should play? Germany would have great concerns about inflation,

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were the Bank to take a bigger role here. The Germans are already

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talking about treaty revision and changed to those countries who are

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part of the eurozone. The European Central Bank needs to come into

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that in terms of the role it should play. Presently it is structured on

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the German model, that inflation fighting is his number one priority.

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We need to dust that off, and see if we need to look at other roles

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for it as a lender of last resort, but making things up as we go along

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is a danger. We need to see the people of Greece and their

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politicians taking this seriously, All the levers that could have been

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used here to persuade the Greek political club and the wider

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population to adopt a certain attitude, none of that seems to

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have worked. We know that 70% of Greeks want to say within the Euro

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and that they see it as a shield. But nothing seems to be persuasive

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the end of this. There is a lack of reality. A partly. But I think we

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got the right package for one half of the problem one week ago. That

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dealt with the banking crisis. I have sympathy for the Greeks and

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other European companies. If there was nothing in that package to

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stimulate growth. What we have been arguing for in the European

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Parliament is a system of European bonds. Governments can then borrow

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cheaply to get the economy moving. That seems to punitive? To punitive.

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It does not stimulate growth or get the economy moving. There is a

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demand for infrastructure projects, which would help get the economy

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moving. People will not borrow more money if they know they will see

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their level of income being reduced. And we need to stimulate demand.

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Allen, do you think there is enough discipline within the Greek

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political structures, or whatever amount of money you put in, to

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actually, to this? Simple answer, no. George Papandreou made a number

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of promises the best part of three months ago. I said on Good morning

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Scotland that the people of Greece are just not up for this. They're

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not behind their politicians. It is only a matter of time for the Greek

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economy. Thank you. On Friday, the majority of the Tory

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faithful decided the 32-year-old newbie MSP Ruth Davidson was the

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best candidate to lead them out of the electoral wilderness shying

:47:06.:47:09.

away from Murdo Fraser's radical plan to scrap the existing party

:47:09.:47:15.

and start all over again. As the dust settles and the membership are

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supposed to shuffle into a united line behind Davidson, Christine

:47:18.:47:28.
:47:28.:47:31.

Macleod has this report. I am very pleasure is to declare

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Ruth Davidson the leader... Ruth Davidson's Christ the top has been

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meteoric. She was a party member for three years and a MSP for just

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six months. Now she has beaten Murdo Fraser -- Murdo Fraser to the

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top. She defended the status quo. am disappointed I was not able to

:47:57.:48:00.

persuade more of our members and my vision for the future was the

:48:00.:48:04.

correct one. But I congratulate Ruth Davidson on her victory and

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she will have my full support. what convince the party should have

:48:08.:48:12.

the right choice for them? Is it partly that Ruth Davidson is seen

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as a younger version of the popular outgoing leader, Annabel Goldie.

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Many would argue she is just as charismatic, smart and articulate.

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But if these qualities did not help Annabel Goldie, what chance has

:48:30.:48:35.

Rhys Davids and? I think, to be honest, are what Murdo Fraser

:48:35.:48:37.

proposed was a last throw of the dice for the Scottish Conservative

:48:37.:48:43.

Party. What Ruth Davidson proposes is more of the same - trying a bit

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harder next time, one more heave. The very approach the party has

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adopted since 1987 -- 1997 and it has failed to produced any

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beneficial results. Despite being young, she has failed to convince

:48:57.:49:00.

some of the Young Conservatives that she can lead the party back to

:49:00.:49:05.

victory without adopting some of the ideas of Murdo Fraser. They say

:49:05.:49:08.

they welcome her refreshing face but would far rather she had a

:49:08.:49:13.

refreshing policies. She has to adopt the bulk of Murdo Fraser's

:49:13.:49:18.

proposals to make his Conservative Party more independent and an

:49:18.:49:22.

independent voice for her at Scotland as part of the Union. He

:49:22.:49:25.

she has to have any success electorally, she will have to take

:49:25.:49:30.

on what Murdo Fraser has said. new leader now faces big challenges,

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not least by she goes about rebuilding the Scottish

:49:33.:49:39.

Conservatives. 45% of the party backed Murdo Fraser for leader.

:49:39.:49:43.

leadership election has been quite divisive. You have certainly had

:49:43.:49:46.

one candidate who has put forward quite radical options for change

:49:46.:49:52.

and a lot of people have bought into that. A lot of party members,

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even on first or second preferences, have decided that it is quite a

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good idea. She has a job on that level to unite party members. But

:50:00.:50:05.

she also has it with the MSPs. A large number of whom really

:50:06.:50:10.

supported Murdo Fraser. There are more big challenges ahead. Squaring

:50:10.:50:13.

up to Alex Salmond at Hollywood, the test of the council elections

:50:13.:50:23.
:50:23.:50:26.

in six months' time and fighting in the SNP in a referendum on.

:50:26.:50:31.

And now, at Ruth Davidson is joining me. What happens to Murdo

:50:31.:50:38.

Fraser? I spoke to him after the count on Friday. It was all quite

:50:38.:50:43.

chaotic. I made sure I phoned all of the MSP group on Friday and

:50:43.:50:46.

talked them through the next few days. We're having a good meeting

:50:46.:50:49.

on Tuesday lunchtime and we will have set down face-to-face as with

:50:49.:50:53.

all the members after that. We will talk about sorting people into

:50:53.:50:57.

their new roles. What is the new role for Murdo Fraser? I need to

:50:57.:51:02.

discuss that with him first. It would be breaching a certain level

:51:02.:51:05.

of protocol to discuss at a live television! But there will be a

:51:05.:51:11.

very big role for him. This was an energising contest for our party.

:51:11.:51:15.

Are we really did capture the imagination of our electorate

:51:15.:51:19.

within the party and within the media. I think that we're a much

:51:19.:51:25.

stronger party for having had this election. Presumably, Murdo Fraser

:51:25.:51:30.

has to have a very big role. He has a very substantial minority within

:51:30.:51:34.

the party who think you direction is completely the wrong direction

:51:34.:51:38.

to head in. Unless you take Murdo Fraser with you, you're not going

:51:38.:51:42.

to take them with the, are you? Absolutely. It would only be fair

:51:42.:51:50.

to Murdo Fraser. After the result, he was very gracious and said he I

:51:50.:51:57.

had his full backing. How do you square that circle? You saying

:51:57.:51:59.

there is an interesting situation were dear presented yourself as a

:51:59.:52:03.

candidate for change, but actually, a lot of people analysing what we

:52:03.:52:07.

know so far of your policies say it is just the same policies with a

:52:07.:52:11.

different voice. Murdo Fraser wants something very radical and

:52:11.:52:15.

different. As a new leader, how do you square that circle? You have to

:52:16.:52:20.

take into account for we have been. A leadership election is a forum

:52:20.:52:23.

where different members of the party put forward their ideas of

:52:23.:52:27.

where they want the party to go. In the selection, we do not have some

:52:27.:52:33.

form of opaque electoral college. It is one-member, one-vote. The

:52:33.:52:37.

party decide on the direction it wants the party to go on for some

:52:37.:52:44.

again three as that leader. The party will come together. We know

:52:44.:52:48.

that a significant number of MSPs did not support you. There is a

:52:48.:52:54.

message quoted in the Sunday Herald today from a senior Tory saying it,

:52:54.:52:58.

"I or her nothing. I have nothing but contempt for her. Was the last

:52:58.:53:08.
:53:08.:53:12.

longer than Wendy"? And... I am not sure that that is a MSP. It is a

:53:12.:53:17.

matter of fact that a significant number of MSPs do not support you.

:53:17.:53:21.

This is a vicious quote. You're suggesting it is all sweetness and

:53:21.:53:25.

light in the party. Passions run high. It is a leadership election.

:53:25.:53:28.

I want to see the party working at all levels and coming closer

:53:28.:53:34.

together. The political party is much more than myself. It is a

:53:34.:53:37.

council representatives, are activists and are Office workers.

:53:37.:53:41.

It is about moving us forward. Let's look at some of your policies.

:53:41.:53:45.

The test of our policies will be to ensure that they all this up the

:53:45.:53:50.

biggest in our society as well as the strongest, according to you. We

:53:50.:53:57.

knew we introduce prescription charges? We would, absolutely. A

:53:57.:54:01.

prescription charges were not universal. They did not apply to

:54:02.:54:05.

people who run certain benefits or a were pregnant or under a certain

:54:05.:54:11.

age or at university. The estimate is that 600 and 1000 adults and

:54:11.:54:15.

Scotland are earning less than �16,000 and were not entitled to

:54:15.:54:19.

free prescriptions. If they were to reintroduce it, we have to look at

:54:19.:54:23.

the parameters of that. So there would be a cut-off level for this?

:54:23.:54:27.

Below a certain income you did not have to pay them? I love the

:54:27.:54:31.

presumption that we are the Government of Scotland, but yes!

:54:31.:54:36.

What is your policy on prescription charges? They if you can afford to

:54:36.:54:41.

pay, you should pay. The weather �16,000 is the cut-off for not,

:54:41.:54:46.

there is work to do on that. This is a key policy and who do not know

:54:46.:54:51.

whether cut-off comes. Isabel, I laid out yesterday with the

:54:52.:54:56.

direction of travel for us as a party. The direction of trouble for

:54:56.:55:00.

us as a party in balls reassessing our policies going forward. I am

:55:01.:55:06.

not the no change candidate. A lot of our chain for the structural and

:55:06.:55:10.

policy based. It involves Breen people in to be involved in those

:55:10.:55:15.

discussions. As leader, I do not unilaterally we write our manifesto

:55:15.:55:20.

tomorrow and impose it. But you must have very clear ideas how you

:55:20.:55:25.

translate this into specific policies. Can I ask you about the

:55:25.:55:30.

Scotland Bill? You said this was a line in the sand. So far and no

:55:30.:55:34.

further. From a poll that we see today conducted by the BBC politics

:55:34.:55:39.

show, it shows that the majority of Scots actually want more powers

:55:39.:55:45.

than exist at the moment. What it said is, do you want more powers

:55:45.:55:47.

that exist at the moment? The Scotland Bill has a been

:55:47.:55:52.

implemented yet. It is quite clear. Our political staff have reviewed

:55:52.:55:56.

this in detail. It is more powers than those that will be brought

:55:56.:55:59.

forward for will be implemented through the Scotland Bill. He had

:55:59.:56:03.

also said another bills, let's see how the Scotland Bill has

:56:03.:56:07.

implemented before we decide what we do. Is it in absolute line in

:56:07.:56:12.

the sand or not? A letter to make this incredibly clear for you. What

:56:12.:56:16.

I said on the Scotland Bill is, let's get it in and working on the

:56:16.:56:20.

ground. I do not see us going hugely beyond that in terms of

:56:20.:56:26.

devolving more powers. I qualified that with, in exactly the same

:56:26.:56:30.

statement, because this was at the launch of my campaign were one of

:56:30.:56:33.

your journalistic colleagues asked me this question, it is about

:56:33.:56:38.

making sure that evolution works. If there are small tweets in the

:56:38.:56:42.

future, then we need to look at them in terms of the practical

:56:42.:56:46.

applications of the Scotland Bill, but in terms of whether Scotland

:56:46.:56:51.

Bill takes us in terms of devolving some levels of fiscal autonomy and

:56:51.:56:55.

certain parts to Scotland, that is where I am comfortable and where

:56:55.:57:02.

want to see it stopped. SVRs. you're saying whatever the polls

:57:02.:57:07.

suggest, I have made up my mind? was asked on my position and I give

:57:07.:57:14.

my position. Can I ask you that given it is generally accepted that

:57:14.:57:18.

you were the preferred candidate of the powers that be in the party in

:57:18.:57:22.

the London, and that he certainly got the vote of some of the old

:57:22.:57:25.

diehards, the suspicion would be that that has happened because they

:57:25.:57:30.

feel that they can control youth. You have said that David Cameron

:57:30.:57:35.

will not be your boss. David Cameron would not be the boss of

:57:35.:57:43.

any buddied he won the selection. You're making very sweeping

:57:43.:57:47.

statements. In terms of saying that I got a huge amount of support, I

:57:47.:57:51.

am very pleased that some respected members of the party made their

:57:51.:57:58.

preference for me known. But someone like Murdo Fraser made

:57:58.:58:02.

other decisions. It is an unfair comparison. Also, David Cameron was

:58:02.:58:06.

very clear that he showed no preference for any member who was

:58:06.:58:13.

standing in this race. So David Cameron is not your boss. He is not

:58:13.:58:21.

my boss, because I'm the Leader of all Conservatives in Scotland. That

:58:21.:58:25.

is why the situation has changed. So it is only a structural point.

:58:26.:58:29.

It is not about you having an independent attitude about what

:58:29.:58:33.

happens in Scotland. I want to make policy but differs from David

:58:33.:58:37.

Cameron. Name three of his policies that you think he is getting one at

:58:37.:58:42.

the moment. I have big disagreements with Kenneth Clarke

:58:42.:58:45.

on short-term sentences. That is one area of disagreement. I

:58:45.:58:49.

disagree with the Chancellor on a couple of areas, which I have

:58:49.:58:55.

written to him about. Which are? One is about cancelling tax

:58:55.:58:58.

specific support for the computer games industry, which would have

:58:58.:59:02.

raised a huge benefit to the computer games industry which is

:59:02.:59:06.

very big in Scotland. I intend to continue to lobby the Chancellor on

:59:06.:59:10.

not. Another area that I talked about is the tax status of the

:59:10.:59:15.

Commonwealth Games in Glasgow 2014. Why is a different to the Olympic

:59:15.:59:19.

Games 2012 tax status? I want to see the best athletes coming up

:59:19.:59:22.

here, the best businesses being able to compete in the same way, to

:59:22.:59:28.

build this area, to be involved in the event, and I think that I will

:59:28.:59:31.

continue to use any and all influence that I have to fight

:59:31.:59:36.

Scott Bond's corner. When you were quoted as saying that David Cameron

:59:36.:59:39.

should set the time for the independence referendum, or what

:59:39.:59:45.

was meant by that? There were questions about whether there was a

:59:45.:59:49.

mechanism and whether London would do that. I said, if Alex Salmond is

:59:49.:59:56.

going to rig a referendum with the second question and saying is one

:59:56.:59:58.

decision outweighs the Independent's decision, but saying

:59:58.:00:02.

yes for independence, there is a point where the Prime Minister has

:00:02.:00:06.

to stand in. Ideally, it to be sorted out in Scotland but it would

:00:06.:00:16.
:00:16.:00:21.

If it is apparent that Alex Salmond is rigging the elections, will I

:00:21.:00:24.

advise that we will take a stand on this? I am comfortable with doing

:00:24.:00:33.

so. Thank you. With an independence campaign looming, albeit a few

:00:33.:00:36.

years down the track, the other pro-union parties now have to

:00:36.:00:37.

decide how they will fight that campaign.

:00:37.:00:40.

Will they offer the voters even more powers for Holyrood, to

:00:40.:00:42.

counter the SNP's full-blown independence? The Liberal Democrats

:00:42.:00:45.

are first off the starting block. Sir Menzies Campbell, a former

:00:45.:00:48.

Olympic athlete, is in charge of his party's latest Home Rule

:00:48.:00:51.

Commission He says he will take his time to reach his conclusions. We

:00:51.:01:00.

will be speaking to him shortly. It was William Gladstone who, back

:01:00.:01:04.

in the late 1800s, sought to persuade his fellow liberals that

:01:04.:01:09.

they should become the party of home rule. At the time it was Home

:01:09.:01:12.

Rule for Ireland, and his conversion because he needed the

:01:12.:01:15.

support of Irish nationalists in the Commons the stop many a

:01:15.:01:19.

discussion about the merits a lot of home rule will have been had

:01:19.:01:25.

here, where Gladstone himself established in 1886, a few hundred

:01:25.:01:29.

metres from Parliament. According to reports, many a whisky

:01:29.:01:34.

will have been had here, too. But his taste in home rule was not

:01:34.:01:42.

shared by all his party. Through the centuries, the label has stuck,

:01:42.:01:45.

and even today the Liberal Democrats see themselves as the

:01:45.:01:55.
:01:55.:01:56.

party of home rule. The number of yes faults, 1,230,937.

:01:56.:02:00.

Liberals backed devolution in the 1979 referendum, and after that

:02:01.:02:05.

failed under the 40% rule, supported the setting-up of a

:02:05.:02:09.

Scottish constitutional Convention to come up with a blueprint for

:02:09.:02:14.

self government. It was not until 1927 -- 1997 at that dream was

:02:14.:02:19.

realised, and the creation of the Scottish Parliament. Coalition poly

:02:19.:02:25.

-- politics in Edinburgh were born. But Lib Dems and dash FOR home rule

:02:25.:02:29.

were an satiated. Five years ago, Lord Steel was back with a

:02:29.:02:38.

commission that move things on. A blueprint including financial

:02:38.:02:45.

autonomy. The fact that this deal Commission

:02:45.:02:49.

is there makes it very hard for the Liberal Democrats to play an active

:02:49.:02:55.

role in the constitutional debate. On the other hand, the problem with

:02:55.:02:57.

the commission is that it recommended Unionism without

:02:57.:03:07.

telling them why -- why the union was doing various things.

:03:07.:03:17.
:03:17.:03:27.

With an independence for a It was arguably Gladstone's home

:03:27.:03:31.

will plans that helped foster a nationalism that paved the way for

:03:31.:03:40.

the Irish Republic's independence. More than a century on, some may

:03:40.:03:44.

wonder if Scotland is on the same path.

:03:44.:03:47.

And the MP for North East Fife and former Liberal Democrat Leader, Sir

:03:47.:03:49.

Menzies Campbell, is here with me now.

:03:49.:03:54.

Thank you for coming in. An outside observer might say that the Lib

:03:54.:03:59.

Dems are all over the shop on this one. They support federalism, Lord

:03:59.:04:04.

Steel came up with radical proposals for fiscal autonomy, and

:04:04.:04:10.

the Lib Dems and Holyrood backtracked on Calman Commission.

:04:10.:04:17.

What is your remit on this? It is to set out in detail, fill all the

:04:17.:04:20.

gaps in the traditional Liberal Democrat policy on home rule. That

:04:20.:04:24.

used to be described as large-scale economics, but the world has moved

:04:24.:04:29.

on since then. That is why it is necessary for us to flesh out the

:04:29.:04:33.

bounce, and we will do it at local government level, National Holyrood

:04:33.:04:39.

level, and Westminster. We will do it for Europe, as well. But do you

:04:39.:04:44.

think that the argument has moved on beyond what has been outlined in

:04:44.:04:49.

the Scotland Bill? It is easy to see the Scotland Bill's Christmas

:04:49.:04:57.

tree on which you hang things. -- as a Christmas tree. The Calman

:04:57.:05:03.

Commission was our careful and considered approach, and we are

:05:03.:05:08.

setting out a considered approach to the ultimate destination -- to

:05:08.:05:11.

decide what the ultimate destination should be. No point in

:05:11.:05:16.

responding its two sermons on the Mount from Alex Salmond. Let us do

:05:16.:05:26.

it in a proper time, and get the right answer. To a lot of first

:05:26.:05:36.
:05:36.:05:38.

observers,... My Commission, which is composed by experienced people

:05:38.:05:44.

in local and national government, will seek to put flesh on the bones

:05:44.:05:52.

of home rule. The poll makes it clear that it breaks into thirds. A

:05:52.:05:58.

third for independence, a third for status quo, and a little more than

:05:58.:06:05.

a third for powers for a Scottish Parliament. If we lead on from that,

:06:05.:06:13.

into the independence question. There should not be one.

:06:13.:06:18.

Independence is such a major departure from the arrangements for

:06:18.:06:23.

a number of years. -- there should be one. If the public say they want

:06:23.:06:27.

independence that will be a clear expression of opinion. If they say

:06:27.:06:33.

no, we then have to ask what else? But putting two questions into the

:06:33.:06:40.

referendum seems an interesting device that has been exposed to try

:06:40.:06:46.

to lump the votes together, and then say, here is a mandate. But it

:06:46.:06:51.

would seem that the majority of people want devo-max, however that

:06:51.:07:01.
:07:01.:07:02.

is defined. But I do not know what devo-max means. But we are going to

:07:02.:07:05.

define it in the context of home rule. They easily understood,

:07:06.:07:11.

something that needs the flesh put on the bones. If you define it, and

:07:11.:07:16.

it is something popular with the public, it gives the Liberal

:07:16.:07:18.

Democrats momentum, why not have devo-max against independence as

:07:18.:07:26.

the auction? If you think about it, for 300 years, we have been part of

:07:26.:07:30.

the United Kingdom. Independence represents an enormous step change,

:07:30.:07:34.

and that is why I believe the question should be put in clear and

:07:34.:07:38.

unequivocal terms to the Scottish people. I have explained what the

:07:38.:07:44.

consequences are of a yes or "no" vote. But it sounds that you have

:07:44.:07:49.

no confidence at this stage that the ideas you come up with women

:07:49.:07:55.

aged and energise the public. you are looking at this regard in a

:07:55.:07:59.

vote for independence. Is there a clear mandate for independence? The

:07:59.:08:06.

resolve that one way or another. If it is yes, then clearly we will be

:08:06.:08:10.

embarking on a complicated set of arrangements for withdrawal from

:08:10.:08:17.

the big United Kingdom. If it is no, I ask what kind of arrangements

:08:17.:08:26.

they want. We can then go on to the detail for. In that detail, Lord

:08:26.:08:29.

Steel's commission set out in great detail how it would work, but not

:08:29.:08:33.

the rationale for staying in the Union. Do you have to look at that

:08:33.:08:37.

this time around and making the argument? It is part of it,

:08:37.:08:42.

obviously. I believe in the United Kingdom, and believe we are

:08:42.:08:46.

stronger as part of the United Kingdom as a unit. I am opposed to

:08:46.:08:49.

independence because I believe Scotland would be less significant

:08:49.:08:55.

and important. Do you think the argument was made clearly enough in

:08:55.:09:00.

Lord Steel's commission? I am not rewriting that. This is the

:09:00.:09:03.

Campbell Commission, and we have the right people to help us. I have

:09:03.:09:08.

had a lot of offers in the last week from people with good

:09:08.:09:11.

constitutional knowledge and understanding. Anyone from south of

:09:11.:09:15.

the border? We are hearing that you can see what you like, but you

:09:15.:09:20.

cannot impose a settlement without English support. I have had offers,

:09:20.:09:26.

yes. They do not want to be aligned publicly, but are willing to offer

:09:26.:09:32.

advice and assistance. When would you report? As soon as we have got

:09:32.:09:37.

it right. I believe in getting it right, rather than quick. Late next

:09:37.:09:44.

year? I would imagine around autumn next year. Thank you.

:09:44.:09:50.

Earlier, a new survey indicated that 28% of those questioned in

:09:50.:09:55.

Scotland and 24 for English respondents favoured a severing of

:09:55.:10:00.

the Union. They were also asked about the other option, devo-max.

:10:00.:10:05.

The survey also indicated a further third wanted more powers than is

:10:05.:10:10.

outlined in the Scotland Bill. As usual, the issue of timing and

:10:10.:10:14.

mechanics of the referendum came up. This is a matter for the First

:10:14.:10:18.

Minister, who has brought forward their of -- proposition. He has

:10:18.:10:23.

been sketchy about what he will do, and when. I have repeatedly asked

:10:23.:10:28.

for details of the referendum to be spelt out for us to see a draft

:10:28.:10:33.

bill, so we can see what is proposed. We campaigned in the

:10:34.:10:38.

election, and said we would have a referendum on a straight question

:10:38.:10:41.

on independence, which would take place in the second half of this

:10:41.:10:48.

parliamentary term. We also allowed the option of asking a question

:10:48.:10:52.

called devo-max, on page three of the manifesto. In response to that

:10:52.:10:56.

timescale, putting forward the people of Scotland, we got the most

:10:56.:11:03.

overwhelming mandate in Scottish political he has to be.

:11:03.:11:12.

With me some -- for some expert analysis, we have Mandy Rhodes, the

:11:12.:11:17.

editor of Holyrood magazine, and we have Brian Taylor. We have heard so

:11:17.:11:24.

many as Campbell saying no to the referendum. -- Sir Menzies Campbell.

:11:24.:11:29.

I think most people want independence, or not. It is clear

:11:29.:11:36.

from the Euro poll, most people -- two-thirds of people want change.

:11:36.:11:40.

If the Lib Dems could get some momentum behind them, do you think

:11:40.:11:48.

that politically they could miss a trick? I think everyone seems to be

:11:48.:11:51.

frightened that they are being tricked into something by Alex

:11:51.:11:54.

Salmond. If the Lib Dems got their weight behind devo-max, which is a

:11:54.:12:00.

phrase that has not been coined by Alex Salmond, perhaps they could

:12:00.:12:06.

win. Brian Taylor, what did you make of it? The second question,

:12:06.:12:09.

that will only be on the ballot paper if there is agitation for it.

:12:09.:12:14.

What does Alex Salmond want to do? He wants a fall-back position of

:12:14.:12:17.

independents goes down, and wants to prise independence away from the

:12:17.:12:21.

UK party and prise Liberal Democrats from the Tories, in other

:12:21.:12:29.

words to divide the Unionist position. I think they are some

:12:29.:12:31.

Liberal Democrats in Scotland who are tempted to get devo-max on the

:12:31.:12:34.

ballot paper, but I think Michael Miranda Campbell Commission will

:12:34.:12:38.

have their way, the Liberal Democrats will not agitate for the

:12:38.:12:46.

option. -- Michael Moore and D Campbell Commission. Could it be a

:12:46.:12:49.

straight choice between devo-max and in the bend ins? That would be

:12:49.:12:54.

what was suggested by the academic who was having the discussions with

:12:54.:12:58.

the First Minister. Another words, you have a question asking if you

:12:58.:13:03.

want change, then a question saying independence versus devo-max. But

:13:03.:13:07.

Alex Salmond is saying his preferences for yes or No to

:13:07.:13:10.

independence. He will only have the other question if there is

:13:10.:13:15.

agitation for that from other sources. It is clear that they are

:13:15.:13:19.

coming towards a position of not agitating for it, so it is more

:13:19.:13:24.

likely than not that the referendum will be a straight yes or no. I am

:13:24.:13:29.

not absolutely certain. What did you make of Ruth Davidson's line in

:13:29.:13:33.

the sand on the Scotland Bill be reiterated? I think the problem is

:13:33.:13:36.

that she is someone who has said there is a lane in the sand, and

:13:36.:13:41.

she wants no more powers. Yet, two thirds of the people say that they

:13:41.:13:46.

want more powers. Other -- either she is going to be moved off

:13:46.:13:53.

realise she will not increase support. In terms of Murdo Fraser's

:13:53.:13:55.

supporters in the party, people who said they wanted very radical

:13:55.:14:00.

change, how difficult Willerby for her to come up with anything

:14:00.:14:04.

persuasive to them, never mind the rest of the public? It is difficult.

:14:04.:14:11.

The reality is that 60% of party members could even be bothered to

:14:11.:14:16.

vote in an election that they did not even need to leave the house to

:14:16.:14:20.

Fulton, and only half of them voted for Ruth Davidson in the first

:14:20.:14:23.

preference to be leader, and the other half voted for people who

:14:23.:14:27.

wanted the party to disband and changed completely. She is going to

:14:27.:14:30.

have to come out very quickly with radical ideas that she wants the

:14:30.:14:34.

people to stay with her. biggest problems she faces is the

:14:34.:14:39.

immediate problem in Parliament. Yes, she is the leader of the whole

:14:39.:14:44.

party, she has to energise them and work with the grass roots. I

:14:44.:14:49.

understand why she is saying that, but it is platitude, in terms of

:14:49.:14:53.

the relationship with the party. The challenge is working with that

:14:53.:14:58.

group, where the majority wanted Murdo Fraser. One MSP even

:14:58.:15:04.

suggested there would be a work to rule in the parliamentary roles.

:15:04.:15:08.

They would occupy the front bench positions, but might not be

:15:08.:15:12.

energetic and enthusiastic about it. Ruth Davidson needs to make sure

:15:12.:15:17.

they are not just going through the motions. She needs to make sure

:15:17.:15:22.

they are energetically advancing the course. If anyone can energise

:15:22.:15:30.

them it is hard. Is that enough, just to be energetic? What does she

:15:30.:15:36.

have to bring? I agree with Brian, she is very energetic and capable.

:15:36.:15:41.

She has very little political experience and background. I feel

:15:41.:15:45.

it was disingenuous to say that she was not backed by Cameron, because

:15:45.:15:49.

we all knew that David Cameron had her as his favourite -- favoured

:15:49.:15:56.

candidate. She will get his support, but whether that does her didn't

:15:56.:16:02.

Scotland, I am not sure. Do you think she can come into the party

:16:02.:16:06.

at this stage and do the shake-up people think it needs? She has to.

:16:06.:16:10.

Political magazine presented by Jon Sopel and Isabel Fraser.


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