13/11/2011 The Politics Show Scotland

This week on the Politics Show: Vince Cable offers sympathy to the

St Paul's protesters and threatens tough action on Executive Pay.

But what about the economy? The Business Secretary tells us his

plan for growth and we get the And are Government plans to take

child benefit from higher rate And on the Politics Show Scotland:

We hear from the Chancellor, George Osborne, who warns the prospect of

an independence referendum is causing uncertainty in the Scottish

economy, with major international companies worried about investing

here. And we take a look at a new export

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1312 seconds

- education. How big a draw is a Trying to cut too far tried to cut

too far and too fast. The longer this goes on, the bigger the pain

is going to be. I do not think they We have heard from Vince Cable

saying the need to get the growth back into the economy. We read that

there may be many bought forward for infrastructure projects. D U

Welcome mat? The fittest true. Your first question to Vince Cable was

this is the equivalent of a war in the economy. That is quite right.

But after the Second World War, we took a number of years to repay at

a higher number of debt. The Government and Vince Cable tried to

get this done in one Parliament and it is backfiring, leading to higher

borrowing as well as slower growth. We have set out a plan more

balanced on the deficit and which acts now to get growth and jobs

moving. It used the case that the Government is now adopting one of

those plans by bringing forward infrastructure investment then good

but it has to be real, it has to have a stimulus for the economy.

George Osborne is talking about �50 billion. That has all got to come

from private investment. We have had this idea for a year... I just

want to ask you about your plan. How much will your growth plant

cost? We have been very clear that one of the elements will be a

temporary cut for one year which will cost �12 billion. We have said

repeat the ban bonus tax... Do you think it should be for one year or

five years? It all depends how long it takes his recovery to get moving.

I think that if we act now and we will get the recovery moving over

the next year. A year ago we had a recovery and falling unemployment.

Vince Cable was ignored, the Liberal Democrat manifesto was

whipped up... I would like to go with your plans. �12 million in VAT.

What about the rest of it? second part would be a repeat of

the bank and its tax, raising �2 billion from and bonuses to spend

on 100,000 jobs for young people and housing. That pays for itself.

We call for a cut in national insurance, with small firms taking

on new employees and the Government had is denied it has failed. There

was half a billion pounds for that and it did not work very well. We

have also said, but VAT for a year, for help for small companies.

People think that might cost half a billion pounds but if you get more

growth and jobs that will then pay for itself. Finally, bring forward

projects but you cannot have the big investment projects if you do

not affect borrowing, which somehow relies upon the private sector.

George Osborne is a saying �50 billion but there is no meet there.

He's been will not work. You have to hold him to account. We need to

Labour's plan for jobs in Britain right now. And executive pay. Vince

Cable is talking about possibly introducing legislation in the New

Year. Will you be backing him? he brings forward legislation we

will balk at hit. I think Vince Cable was confused it is in dispute

about the past as well as the future. We actually introduced in

Government legislation which says that every person paid more than �1

million, be paying owners should be made public. The Conservative-

Liberal Democrat Government have used that. Vince Cable does not

need a new bill. He can do that right now. Why doesn't he just out

rather than prevaricate? He has also talked about legislation to

have work representatives on board, more transparency, voting by

shareholders. Quite right. We just get on with it. You cannot just sit

there and say, I have got a problem, and prevaricate about action. On

executive pay, growth, jobs, we do not want these things that are all

over the place and confused. We want action to get jobs and grid

moving out to get our deficit down. We needed quickly and I am afraid

in the interview today we did not see any signs of leadership action,

just excuses. Good afternoon. Welcome to The

Politics Show Scotland. Coming up, in an exclusive interview, the

Chancellor wars -- and warns the SNP's independence referendum is

putting off big business from coming here. I think the

uncertainty is damaging investment in Scotland and there are major

businesses around the world who have asked me in the last tee, tell

us what is going on in Scotland. We are worried about making an

investment. He as the Scottish Government's

consultation on same-sex marriage nears a close, will Scots say "I

do", and will ministers listen? And selling Scottish education to

India. How big a brand is a degree from one of our universities?

It has cost two governments and billions of euros but still the

economic crisis in Europe ranges on. The turmoil is having an impact

here, as forecasts predict the UK economic growth will suffer because

of the crisis on the Continent. Plenty to attract the attention of

Chancellor George Osborne, them. I caught up with him in a distillery

in Elgin and asked him how Europe should get out of its current mess?

There are the issues of leading with -- dealing with the crisis in

hand, dealing with Italy, the questions raised over even

countries like France, and that is what all our efforts are fixed on

at the moment but I do not think that will be the lasting answer.

The lasting answer is that the countries of the eurozone will have

to corporate much more closely on the issues of tax and spending,

where there has got to be more integration. Be kind of thing,

actually, that Britain would not tolerate. One of the reasons we did

not jewel the euro. But we have to allow the euros and to do it well

protected are our interests and making sure that the European Union

can work for all its members even those that are not in the euro.

that fiscal union? Something like it. If you think of currency unions

anywhere in the world, in the UK, in the United States, we do

transfer money around the country in order to try to get greater

equality and -- in the economy. That is what needs to happen in the

Europe. We are not there yet and there is instability in the euro.

It is having a huge impact on the Scottish and UK economy and I am

afraid it is hitting growth and heeding jobs. Gyms says that when

the evidence changes so do his opinions. Shouldn't you change

direction to? I fully accept we need to go further, have more

initiatives, have plans to stimulate housing, getting Hames

being built, help with more infrastructure, help small

businesses. I accept all that and we will announce plans for all

those things in the coming weeks but let's not forget you one not

into being a European buyer -- finance minister who is terrified

that he cannot sell his country's debt tomorrow. Severe austerity

programme continues? The austerity programme, as you put it, I would

say a country living within its means, is an essential part of

Britain demanded confident within the world and I think all of those

who said over the last year that there was some room for Britain,

that we could spend more Korek -- spent more, Barrymore, we must

remember that our deficit is higher than that of Greece, Italy,

Portugal. It means that alternative path, plan B, it would have been a

total disaster for this country, Proust -- pushed interest rates up.

Alex Salmond won a famous victory in May and he says that gives him a

mandate to demand more Palmer's from your Government. What would

convince you to devolve corporation tax to Edinburgh? I have had

several discussions with Alex Salmond about corporation tax and

other things he has asked for. First, we are passing through

Parliament the biggest devolution of taxation since the Act of Union.

Second, specifically on corporation tax, there are some very important

questions about how much money this would forgo for the UK Exchequer,

how much money the Scottish Government... How much is it?

is precisely the discussion I want with Alex Salmond. We have asked

him questions about his proposal and actually he has had very little

idea of the answers. The impressions I have had from

discussions with the Scottish Government is that they have not

really thought through the detail of additional powers. Maybe now

they will in the next few months. We have asked them some questions.

It is time for them to come back with some answers but let's not

forget, currently going through the UK parliament, promoted by the

coalition Government, the United Kingdom, is the biggest devolution

of taxation since the Act of Union and that status was a lot of what

the Scottish people want to see. that his may be on corporation tax.

Before you go through each one of these, I am not saying that any of

these are necessarily things we will do. I am saying, let us hear

the answers to the detailed questions and I have not had those

answers yet. And frankly, I think the bigger issue at the moment is

not this particular power or that particular power. I think the

instability and the uncertainty that hangs over the Scottish

economy because of Alex Salmond raising the prospect of

independence without actually providing any detail, I think that

answer is damaging investment in Scotland and they are major

businesses around the world who have asked me, as Chancellor, in

the last year, tell us what is going on in Scotland. We are

worried about making an investment in that country. I have told them,

go ahead with that investment, but I have to say, those questions are

being asked and I think they are having an impact on Scottish jobs

and prosperity. Which companies and how much investment? I do not want

to go into specifics but some of the largest companies in the world.

These are private conversations. I always answer, in best in Scotland.

I think it is a great place to invest. But people have to be aware

that the uncertainty about independence, about what sort of

referendum Alex Salmond once, the question that he wants to posted

Scottish people, all of those things, at a time when there is a

lot of economic uncertainty, or adding economic uncertainty in

Scotland. As a Conservative Cabinet minister, do you feel comfortable

in Scotland, the country which has so often rejected your party?

say, I think this is a fantastic part of the UK. One of the best

places to do business. As Chancellor I am very interested in

that. I actually came up here with my Liberal Democrat chief secretary

earlier today. I have spent the afternoon with are fantastic new

leader of the Scottish Conservatives, with Davidson, and I

should say, my door is always open to her to come and put his case for

Scotland. I am optimistic about Scotland's future. And the

Conservatives' future? I am optimistic. We have a fantastic

leader. She is a breath of fresh air just not for the Scottish

Conservatives but for the Coral Scottish politics. She is going to

be an important force for Scotland. Classes.

You can see a longer version of that interview on our website at

bbc.co.uk/scotlandnews. One interested observer is the First

Minister. Just before we came on air, Alex Salmond gave us these

reaction to the Chancellor's claims. The great companies of the world

are investing in Scotland at the present moment. Companies like Amla

arm -- Amazon, Mitsubishi. That is one of the reasons even in these

difficult economic times when unemployment in Scotland is lower

than in the rest of the UK. The instability in Scotland has nothing

to do with an independence referendum, and everything to do

with George Osborne and Tory economic policies. This is juvenile

and it is not going to work. We have already given huge economic

detail on corporation tax. We have said what we want to do. We want to

control corporation tax so that we can attract corporation companies

to Scotland, to get greater investment in Scotland. We have

given them all this stuff. This is a Chancellor of wants to give as

powers -- give powers to Northern Ireland but not Scotland.

Should same-sex couples be able to get married? That is the question

currently being posed by the Scottish Government. Ministers say

they are open-minded but have hinted they would remind --

consider reform. Some of those campaigning for the change say

those -- it is not just about religion.

We knew as soon as we met each other... Sandy and Kevin became

civil partners last Christmas Eve but given a chance, they would

rather have got married. We believe that a civil partnership is like a

legal contract. You get the same rights and responsibilities as

someone married but we feel it is a lesser status. While they would not

have had a religious ceremony they think it should be an option for

gay couples, but only if the judge involved agrees. I do not think

anyone should force them to conduct these ceremonies. It is up to their

religion and for them to decide and for people who are religious to

take it up with their ministers. That is what the Scottish

Government is considering. Up until now, any A8 man and a woman could

get married in Scotland. Gay couples must enter a civil

partnership instead. The new proposals would give same-sex

couples equal marriage rites and the chance to have a religious

ceremony. But despite reassurances from ministers, knows celebrant

would be made to conduct a same-sex wedding, proposals have got strong

opposition from some faith groups, particularly the Catholic Church

who has warned of serious problems with relations with Government if

proposals go ahead. Some smaller face which said they are in favour

of gay marriage but how important is the religious aspect for gay

couples? Let's be clear. This is not about millions of gay people

smashing down doors of judges demanded to be married but there

are some people in the church for whom it matters. They married

within a church matters a lot. For some people it will be a civil

marriage in a registry office. Again it is down to Joyce. Eric and

Paolo got married in Brussels in 2006 per was surprised to find out

it was not recognised in Scotland. The number of times I said, Yes, We

Are married, and people say, so you have visible partnership, and I

have to explain... They do not know... They are not meaning to

make it less but it is less because it was deliberately designed to not

be the same. They would not have married in church but feel

religious groups should not be able to opt out of gay marriage. If you

expect to have the right to conduct these legal ceremony then you

should be expected to deliver it to anybody who wants it. I have said

minutes times before and I will say again... Last week in Parliament,

the Deputy First Minister reiterated the Government's

position that it is tending towards change but still consulting on the

issue. But should ministers stick to their guns? In all the history

of these complex issues, you have to take a moral decision and stick

by it and articulate it clearly. In suddenly, as Tony Blair did, a

decade ago, during the Great Rock about Section 2 a, about

homosexuality in schools, when he came north and said these are

grinders fears, -- groundless fears. Let's just be reasonable about it.

Alex Salmond has to do exactly the same thing. This is the 21st

century. We do not accept prejudices against sexual

minorities and I am afraid those subject to that will just have to

put up with it. Legislation for same-sex marriage is not featured

on this year's programme for Government. Consultation ends on

December 9th. Joining in the studio is the SNP's

John Mason, and the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie

What is your view it as to whether there should be legislation on

this? I think we should wait till the end of the consultation and I

thing that is something all the main parties agree on. The do you

personally support a change in the law? I think this is a time for the

politicians to listen to what comes out of the consultation. But surely

you must have an opinion on that? Do you support the question of

whether same-sex couples should be able to get married? Most of the

rates are already there, so we are arguing really about a word. What

is your view? I want a society which is as bloat pluralistic as

possible. But it should be the case that if Christians and other groups

want to opt out, they should be allowed to. But what about your

view. I am asking you as an elected Member of Parliament what your

opinion is. What I am not wanting his Christian views been forced

upon the rest of society. But I am relaxed about it. So you agree with

it? No, I am relaxed about it. disappointed with John's response.

I think we could have a vigorous debate about this. The judge has

make a reasonable 0.0, do they not, that if you look at all the legal

rights and responsibilities, you have them in become legislation

regarding civil partnerships. the belief that the faith groups

would say that marriage should only been between a man and a women.

There has never been an option that churches would be forced into

performing same-sex marriages. But the Church do not own the word

marriage. There are marriages that are conducted not within religious

settings now. Society owns the word marriage. It is important that we

have a society that supports all groups, it should be open to all

groups. So do you not think the Church should be listen to? A a

absolutely not. My father was a Minister and the church. You talked

about the Equality Act there was being passed at the time, if you

think Holyrood does legislate on this it could be undermined by the

Equality Act? There is a belief that they there could be a clash

between report the Equality Act says and this could be problematic.

At the moment, if the churches cannot do civil partnerships and

equal marriage or gay marriage, it should be then that a couple could

then come up to the charge and challenge that. There is that

slight fear or that of the Scottish Parliament agrees to protect

religious people that they could go to court and the courts could

decide against it. Should it courts decide against it? Are we going to

say that the judge should be squeezed into a corner. But if that

is the question of equality, surely the Church should have to abide by

that? Well, you have to take into account conscience. Why should not

churches be forced to allow gay marriage? I am not seeking to

impose my views on the church. society should be equal until you

get to the steps of a church? think it should be a free society

where people can do what they want. I do not want to impose upon the

churches and I do not want them to impose upon me. How do you think

the SNP colleagues will listen to the churches? I have got great

respect for Nicola Sturgeon. say it does legislate against the

judges? There is probably a majority that support gay marriage,

even did David Cameron says he does, but I think it is fair to say that

not a majority of Conservative voters would do. To the judges have

too much influence over Scottish politicians? I think the judges

have to be careful about how they speak on behalf of the people who

follow that faith. I was very unfavourable over for the Minister

in Paisley said about the judge having the block vote of 600,000

Roman Catholics in the country. I think that was wrong. A church

leaders not supposed to lead on religious issues? And surely it

same-sex marriage is a moral issue and therefore they should be

speaking out about it? Yes, but this is different. I certainly

think the Church cannot affect the government. They are a minority

these days. They should put out their views and put them out

strongly. If they are defeated and have bought, they are in the

minority. The the consultation ends in the next few weeks. Thank you

both very much. Government ministers have become

travelling salesmen in recent weeks. Alex Salmond was barely off the

plane from a tour of the Gulf States when the Education Secretary,

Mike Russell set off for India. His job was to lead the largest-ever

university delegation to the country. So what is the pitch? Our

business and economy editor Douglas Fraser has been investigating.

India has get issues market as a potential for Scottish exports and

for learning. We have some of the best universities and the world and

have a long tradition of higher education. Scholl and is known as

the provider of education and I think it is the major competitor

with other countries and the world. I think it is succeeding become

because of its reputation. numbers are staggering. There are

over 200 million student studying. That is said to increase in the

next 10 years. That means another 1,000 universities are needed. The

only way that that gap between supply and demand to draw extra

capacity can be filled is by working in partnerships with

universities from overseas. Fees for a masters are Strathclyde

Business School run to �22,000. It is a big ask by Indian standards.

It opens the doors by having international access and not simply

been restricted to India. Coming over here, I met a lot of new

people who wear experienced. They were from Europe and America.

is a mix of culture and experience that you get to study here. When

you study people from different backgrounds and experiences. You

share your own experiences. people in industry can bring real

insight into the industry. Men the of the universe days have opened

campuses abroad. Yesterday, on this visit to a cemetery, a partnership

deal was signed between the university and its counterpart in

India. We have a great interest in the likes of art history. Calcutta

is a city with some fantastic historical links to our country.

That is one of the things we want to develop. If there is one thing

which defines the industry, it is the crack down on visas which the

British Government is threatening. After independence, things could be

very different, but before then, we have to make sure we have the best

possible reception for students. That is why some of the funds may

not find themselves going to Scotland. Many of the student's

want to do so or were seized, but many more are now staying at home.

That is why we are now introducing a hour programmes in India. As the

partnership shifts East, the partnership is now going to we.

After long, is this where astute Scottish students will want to

study? Joining us in Edinburgh is the

Guardian's Scotland correspondent Severin Carrell and with me in

Glasgow, the chief reporter for The Herald, Lucy Adams.

On that issue of selling markets to India, how impressive in brand his

Scottish education? There is this very strong Scottish tradition of

engagement, particularly through the Empire and the Indian

government. I think, in many ways it is a very attractive one,

especially in the likes of Engineering. I suspect it is quite

the profoundly strong brand and there is also the strong Scottish

intellectual tradition. The is it possible for universities in

Scotland to sell the brand to other countries? Is it not just

distracting. Should they not just be focusing on educating students

here? For the most part, yes. But it is clearly that India is the

very interesting place for us to be connected with. Scotland can be

criticised for being too inward- looking and to look out towards the

other countries such as Brazil, China and India, this is perfect

timing. They are all very big growing economies. We have big

businesses telling the Chancellor that they are worried about the

possibility of Scottish independence. What are the politics

involved in this? There is undoubtedly going to be some

anxiety and uncertainty about the medium to long-term outlook,

because of Scotland has become independent, the independence of a

lot of the subsidies and mechanisms that are part of the overall

picture in the UK, will undoubtedly change. It is a difficult question

for the UK Government to pick. You ask the quite credible question to

the Chancellor, name the companies involved. Name companies which have

refused to become involved in Scotland. Alex Salmond can then

tripped off the trunk a list of other companies that are involved.

There is something that Alex Salmond has to recognise here. You

have the European crisis and the European debt it is all going to be

playing on people's minds. There are a lot of confidence issues he

has to wrestle with. People think that this mantra of complete

optimism that Scotland is always going to be open for business, is

simply not true. It is not just a question of what the UK Government

is doing with rich austerity programme, there are much bigger

things at play. There is undoubtedly going to be and it

issue for investors. There is also going to be uncertainty about what

will happen in the run-up to an independence referendum. How much

will these issues become part of the economic concerns? They think

they will be absolutely crucial. I think most people vote on economic

issues. There are so many contradictions coming from

politicians. You have the Conservatives talking about the

need for confidence, they talk about how the the Eurozone is

undermining confidence. Cameron yesterday was talking about that we

should prepare for the worst. That is not something which fills people

full of confidence. So it will be a critical question and the problem

at the minute as there is so much contradiction and uncertainty and,

if anything, the Eurozone is the huge cloud over everything. That is

creating far more uncertainty than anything to do with Scottish

independence. The Labour leader was saying yesterday that as it stands,

the UK Government is using that as the clock to say this is the

problem, this is why we're not dealing with domestic issues and

the economy. Do you think most people realise the impact that the

Eurozone crisis could have on them personally? We think that is one of

the most frustrating aspects of it. It is very difficult to report,

because it is so complicated. The language is the language of

technocrats and economists. For people on the street will

understand it is virtually impossible. The Guardian was saying

that people's pensions will have been down 10 %. These dated a

tangible impact of what people want to know about. The arguments

between technocrats and politicians and the top of trillions of debt,

to the average person and the street, it is almost meaningless.

Is it almost a danger of democracy what has happened in the last few

weeks? It is a point. The dangers to democracy maybe even more so if

the Eurozone collapses. There are obviously key questions which will

have to be answered in Europe. They have to build up Democratic

confidence. It is one of the ironies that the are now seeing the

consequences of the Eurozone crisis is that they're going to have to in

increase the interdependence of all the countries. That is all from The

Politics Show this week. We will be back at the usual time of 12.30pm