Browse content similar to 11/12/2011. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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This week: Clegg and Cameron seemingly at war over Europe. Can | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
the Prime Minister survive the deputy minister's fury over | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
decisions in Europe? This celebration over what has been | :00:20. | :00:28. | |
seen as a victory in Brussels. Is Britain headed for an EU exit? | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Can the Government really turn around the lives of Britain's | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
problem families by the end of this Parliament. The committee secretary | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
Eric Pickles thinks so, but how? On the Politics Show Scotland, what | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
will be the impact on the independence debate here of what | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
David Cameron has done in Europe? The Scottish response to the | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
Westminster welfare reform bill, MSPs are divided over how to | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
protect the most vulnerable. The new anti-sectarianism laws are due | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
to go before the Scott Parliament. Do you understand them? And we will | :01:11. | :01:21. | |
:01:21. | :01:29. | ||
discuss the impact of the UK Bill With me, the formal political | :01:29. | :01:39. | |
:01:39. | :01:39. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1661 seconds | :01:39. | :29:21. | |
editor of the Observer, and the David Cameron said we would turn | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
around the lives of the 125,000 most needy families. That is a bold | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
claim. I think it is a bold claim and a | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
bold objective of. Something needs to be done. Getting kids into | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
school, people into jobs, and a reduction in anti-social behaviour. | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
I think we have tended to be too complex and the way we deal with | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
these families. And that will happen in the lifetime of this | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
Parliament? Absolutely. Are we will make a | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
significant difference. Truancy will be history? Petty | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
crime will be history? We have good co-operation with | :30:04. | :30:12. | |
local authorities. There is a broad political consensus on this. I | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
would to authorities likes of Ford, Labour lead, which is doing a lot | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
of work. We are seeing results in particular of authorities and we | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
want to spread that into authorities throughout the country. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
Can I ask you about council tax. If the council tax goes up by more | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
than 3.5%, local people should be consulted? What about the reverse, | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
if a council wants to slash council tax but also cut services, should | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
back council also have to go to a referendum? | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
No, the job is to remove my powers of capping. I did not have powers | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
to force councils to put up council tax. This is in place of me | :30:57. | :31:05. | |
deciding. The people should decide. But of course this year, because of | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
the off-fore we made, with the council tax freeze, we will give | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
local authorities extra money to have that seal increase. | :31:13. | :31:23. | |
:31:23. | :31:28. | ||
UN the Politics Show Scotland, how will David Cameron's European | :31:28. | :31:37. | |
fallout affect the Independent debate? What can Scotland do if it | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
doesn't like Westminster's planned welfare reforms? The Health | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
Committee is divided on a controversial solution. | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
New anti-sectarianism laws are set to go through on Wednesday. Are | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
they legally literate or just a mess? And another gaping divide | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
looms between Westminster and Edinburgh - the UK Bill of Rights. | :31:49. | :31:59. | |
First, the news with Graham Stewart. It has emerged that the Financial | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Services Authority will be highly critical of its own role and to a | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
report on the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland. The document to | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
be released tomorrow will say the supervision exercised by the City | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
watchdog was deficient in many aspects, and its staff lacked the | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
skills to monitor such a large bank. RBS needed a bailout of �45-billion | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
from taxpayers. The number of Scots worried about | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
money problems has increased in the last year. Citizens Advice Scotland | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
dealt with more than half a million issues, many of them about tax, | :32:25. | :32:35. | |
:32:35. | :32:40. | ||
benefits and debt. Debts and benefits are deeper geishas. There | :32:40. | :32:47. | |
was a 6% increase in debt issues, and a 6% increase in benefit issues. | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
People are not getting enough income or are not getting the | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
benefits they are entitled to. It is not people with minor issues but | :32:55. | :33:04. | |
people who cannot afford to live. Scotland's poll lorry has won a | :33:04. | :33:14. | |
:33:14. | :33:14. | ||
tournament in the Middle East. It went down to the final hole. | :33:14. | :33:22. | |
Let's take a look at the weather It will be an afternoon of sunshine | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
and showers. The further east you are, it will be better weather. | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
Some wintry showers in the North West. A mild afternoon with | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
temperatures around six or seven degrees. When it's coming from the | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
South West. This evening it will be dry, clear and cool but frequent | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
showers across western parts. Temperatures around the ear for | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
degrees. Thank you. I will be back with the | :33:51. | :34:01. | |
:34:01. | :34:03. | ||
Thank you very much. The fall-out from David Cameron's European | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
stand-off intensify is this morning. But as the Prime Minister is | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
determined to flood the Channel with clear blue water, what does | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
that mean in terms of the independence debate? The cracks in | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
the coalition are evident with the Deputy Prime Minister make like | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
criticising the be top of the treaty saying, there was nothing | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
bulldog about Britain hovering somewhere in the mid-Atlantic and | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
that Britain would need to re- engage with Europe. | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
I am bitterly disappointed with the outcome of last week's's summit. | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
There is a real danger that over time, the United Kingdom will be | :34:42. | :34:52. | |
:34:52. | :34:52. | ||
I think that is good for jokes, I do not think it is good for growth | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
and for families up and down the country. | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
The shadow Secretary is equally so it -- scathing. | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
David Cameron decided not to secure this deal and has burnt so many | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
relationships, even if he had gone in with a reasonable demand, he | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
might not have been successful. This is a terrible indictment of | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
the diplomatic skills of the Prime Minister and the failure to judge | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
accurately the importance of Britain not being left in a room | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
with nobody else there. We have the president of the | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
Scottish Liberal Democrat party with us. Do you agree with Nick | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
Clegg? Agree it is disappointing and there | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
is a risk of the UK being isolated but I also think we have to | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
acknowledge that the scale of the economic crisis is such that the | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
eurozone countries and those in the waiting zone, and the UK, are in | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
different places. We have a plan to deal with the deficit as a result | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
of which we have had -- retained hour credit rating statists, Andy | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
eurozone does not have that. It is not in a position to accommodate | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
Britain with somewhat divergent needs. I agree with Nick Clegg in | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
that we must not allow this difference to marginalise or | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
isolate Britain or to undermine all of the treaty obligations to which | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
we are signatory, at which the other member states have to | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
acknowledge her role in. It is important we take a constructive | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
attitude and make it clear we are not taking our tents home. The | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
eurozone has left us rather than the other way around, to some | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
extent. If your objective is to ensure you | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
are not marginalised, it is difficult to see how you can | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
achieve that now. Is it not the case that the Liberal Democrat | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
position would be better served now in an independent Scotland, in | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
Europe? An independent Scotland in Europe | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
is a complete irrelevance. They don't even know which come and say | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
they would use. Why should it be? You are looking | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
at a principle here. A Scotland wants to be pro-European and acted | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
in Europe, the mechanics can be worked out. But there this a basic | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
fundamental liberal Democrat principle which seems to have been | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
sacrificed. I do not accept any of that. There | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
is an economic reality, many of us have political support for the | :37:31. | :37:39. | |
union, the European Union, that is very important, but the idea that | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
the UK with a separate currency and a separate economic plan, which has | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
strong market support, to simply subordinate itself to other member | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
states with different strategies and do not have the ability to | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
accommodate our differences, then it is much more difficult. An | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
independent Scotland would have a big problem using either Stirling | :38:01. | :38:09. | |
or the euro, and Scotland's negotiating position would be weeks | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
to non-existent. We are then the Stirling's on, and we need to have | :38:16. | :38:25. | |
:38:26. | :38:26. | ||
the determination to deliver our plan. -- Sterling zone. We are not | :38:26. | :38:33. | |
sulking, we are taking part. Are we want the euro to -- the euro to | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
succeed. But at the moment we have a divergence of interests and we | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
have to accept that. But as Liberal Democrats, who might | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
want Britain to be a bigger part of Europe but what has been | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
demonstrated is that when you agree something with David Cameron, he | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
goes into talks, Nick Clegg is woken up at 4:30am and David | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
Cameron delivers something make light describes as bitterly | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
disappointing and against Britain's interests. You are not even talking | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
I effectively to you coalition partners. | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
Neither of us were there and I will no doubt hear from the Prime | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
Minister Nick Clegg tomorrow about what happened. My understanding is | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
that we agreed as a coalition government that we should see some | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
recognition of the special interests of the UK's financial | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
services. We did not going with a raft of renegotiation bed. You did | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
not get that. And that was because the eurozone | :39:34. | :39:40. | |
is in a much worse mess than the UK because they have no plan, and no | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
deficit reduction strategy. President Sarkozy is facing | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
oblivion, the Chancellor of Germany whose political situation is week, | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
they are not in a position to listen to Britain. The Prime | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
Minister was in a difficult position. It is not that we rather | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
unreasonable but that they were unreasonable. | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
How do you maintain a collision on a centrally important Liberal | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Democrat issued when you're on leader is saying he is bitterly | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
disappointed? He feels we have been marginalised in Europe and that we | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
have to redouble efforts to be engaged. How do you maintain the | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
coalition? Can I say he is right about that | :40:24. | :40:29. | |
but I looked at the BBC website which said that Clegg attacked | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
Cameron, but that is not true. He did not blame the Prime Minister | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
and I do not believe that the Labour Party or the SNP criticising | :40:38. | :40:44. | |
us would find it any easier in a situation where desperate, panic- | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
stricken eurozone members are anxious to get a deal which the UK | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
is not even able to call cross. It would mean Europe dictating how we | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
-- how we manage our economy while we are not part of theirs. I hope | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
one day in the future we will have a successful euro zone, a strong | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
euro and that one day, Britain might even join it, but I cannot | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
see that happening soon and to deal with this desperate crisis, it is | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
important that both sides recognise they are two different places, and | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
we should move parallel and not against each other. | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
If Thank you very much. Where does all of this leaves the | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
constitutional debate in Scotland? How will Scotland's relationship | :41:28. | :41:35. | |
with Europe there is the SNP won their independence referendum? | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
David Cameron's decision to veto this treaty has left the UK looking | :41:39. | :41:47. | |
more isolated than ever. But what does that mean for SNP's policy of | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
independence in Europe? The process of joining the EU could be long, | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
complex and costly. The idea that the SNP can take it | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
for granted that Scotland would enter into the European Union | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
without negotiation or consideration of these issues is | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
entirely fanciful. One of Scotland's leading lawyers | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
says that an independent Scotland would automatically be part of the | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
year and that the European Court would strike down any attempt to | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
deprive Scott of their existing European citizenship. | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
All spot to watch existing EU citizens would be 10 that EU | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
citizenship, and therefore be so session of Scotland or the break-up | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
of the United Kingdom would not result in the loss of that | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
citizenship so Scotland would remain a member of the year and it | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
would be a question of the recognition of that membership by | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
the other states. The Scottish Government would seek | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
back recognition following a yes vote in the independence referendum. | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
Scotland is part of the Europe -- European Union and an independent | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
Scotland would continue to be a member of the European Union. With | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
the rest of the UK it would remain in that state is. | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
Other member states are reluctant to save much at all about an | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
independent Scotland's relationship with the European Union. But the | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
SNP have told me there would be no political attempt to block | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
Scotland's membership. SNP policy is to keep the pound but | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
only joined the euro after another referendum but the most senior | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
Scott in the UK Treasury says that would leave an independent Scotland | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
vulnerable. Scotland within its monetary union | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
but fiscally independent, the eurozone crisis tells us that a | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
strong control of fiscal control would have to be exercised | :43:50. | :44:00. | |
:44:00. | :44:03. | ||
centrally. Scotland having its independence would present a risk. | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
True Scot of Edinburgh university denies this would make Scottish | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
membership of the single currency inevitable. | :44:10. | :44:15. | |
Scotland could not be forced under European law to adopt the euro. It | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
is true that new member states have to sign up for event will a session | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
to the eurozone, but one of the conditions you have to meet us to | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
be in what is called the exchange rate mechanism for at least two | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
years. There is no provision in European law to require a country, | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
coming into the Union, far less another country that is already in | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
the union, to join that arrangement. Scotland's relationship with Europe | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
would be steered by a coalition government. A Scotland vote to deal | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
directly with the EU as a full member state, the decisions made in | :44:56. | :45:06. | |
:45:06. | :45:06. | ||
the next four years would have huge Now we asked for an SNP Minister to | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
discuss the issues on the programme this morning, but no one was | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
available. But we do have two European expires with us - in our | :45:15. | :45:22. | |
Europe -- Edinburgh studio, Dr David Howard who has the gene more | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
ornate chair of European political economy at the University of | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
Edinburgh. And in Glasgow with me is Dr Myrto Tsakatika from Glasgow | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
University. We are does all this leave us now? | :45:36. | :45:44. | |
It does raise the issue clearly of whether an independent Scotland | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
have would want to join the European Union. It does make this a | :45:48. | :45:56. | |
more salient issue. What is your sense of how Scotland is seen now | :45:56. | :46:04. | |
within Europe? Scotland is certainly at region that punches | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
above its weight within Europe. It is very well versed in policy now | :46:09. | :46:19. | |
:46:19. | :46:19. | ||
works. It is accustomed to working within a multi-level setting. So I | :46:19. | :46:27. | |
am not sure how the member states, what attitude they would have | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
towards a potential Scottish application to join the European | :46:30. | :46:36. | |
Union. There are has been some speculation about sudden -- some | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
federal countries potentially raising objections because they | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
would not want their own regions with on its claims to go down that | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
route. But this is pure a tick speculative. More generally, his | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
policy in more pro-Europe than England within Europe do you think? | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
It is very difficult to say. David, if we look now at the mechanics of | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
all of this. We have had legal advice on the first -- last few | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
months, is the bottom line not we do not know we are going here | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
illegally, we do not know what the outcomes could be, it is all | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
uncharted Chad to it? There scholar becomes a full member of the | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
European Union from independence, it will not have an opt-out. It | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
will be difficult to see the opt out that the United Kingdom | :47:33. | :47:41. | |
negotiated for itself, and Ned -- Denmark negotiated, if Scotland is | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
not an automatic member of the EU and has applied for membership, | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
then an opt-out would definitely not apply. Because a new member | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
state joining cannot normally, there is no precedent, of such a | :47:54. | :48:00. | |
member state getting an opt-out from day one. Scotland is in a | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
position where it is eventually expected to join the euro, but it | :48:04. | :48:13. | |
will not be forced to join the euro at -- in the next few years. Other | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
countries have fudged this for quite a long time. This seemed to | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
be a Gordon Brown strategy. You think it there is that legal we | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
wait there? Do there is no fundamental difference between the | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
SNP policy today and the Government -- former Labour Government policy | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
or even Conservative policy. All the major parties in this country | :48:37. | :48:45. | |
believed that potentially United Kingdom, Scotland, could join the | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
euro. But it would be subject to a referendum and it would only take | :48:50. | :48:58. | |
place if the economic conditions are right. And, of course, we have | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
seen defining when those conditions are right is very difficult. What | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
about another had a letter -- hypothetical question, if Scotland | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
had its own currency, you seem to suggest this could not happen, but | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
if it did, could it then maintain its own currency and have | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
membership of the EU and would that be way out of all this? This is | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
what Alan Smith the SNP member of the European Parliament has | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
proposed. Yes, it is the one sensible option. It gets the around | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
the issue of Professor Scott was referring to, about Scotland not | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
being able to become a member of the exchanger of mechanism. It | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
would be a potentially sensible strategy for political reasons Cup | :49:47. | :49:53. | |
and legal reasons, but of course would it be a sensible strategy | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
economically? Many people would have severe doubts about the idea | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
of Scotland adopting its own currency in the medium term. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
Especially after independence when there would be a lot of trepidation | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
in the markets about the direction of an independent Scotland's | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
economic policy. When you look get the timing, would Scotland be able | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
to dictate the timing absolutely have when it got into the euro? Or | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
will not be that straightforward ever goes into the euro? Well, what | :50:23. | :50:30. | |
we have seen after the first group of countries forming the eurozone | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
and the currencies started to circulate it is that there are | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
different politics that the country's a dot on the run-up to | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
joining the eurozone. For example, or wheezy smaller countries have | :50:42. | :50:52. | |
:50:52. | :50:58. | ||
rushed to join the eurozone. That shows that there is considerable | :50:58. | :51:05. | |
leeway. As David mentioned before or about when countries actually | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
obliged, are obliged to join the euro. Do you agree with the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
analysis earlier that the relationship with London is going | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
to be important year in terms of what happens with Scotland was my | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
relationship with the you? Absolutely. The conditions under | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Scotland will ask for membership, if it will have to ask for | :51:29. | :51:35. | |
membership. And also negotiations about particular policy areas, the | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
opt-outs, the politics and strategic alliances that Scotland | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
can form with than the Europe. These will be essential and in the | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
way in which independence could potentially happen will play a | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
major role. Thank you both very much indeed. | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
Now Scottish Ministers have been urged to think about how new laws | :51:56. | :52:03. | |
to said -- soften the significant changes to their UK benefits system | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
will work out. In a report into the Welfare Reform Bill, Holyrood's | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
Health Committee is warning that the changes could mean cuts in | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
payments to the most vulnerable. Stephen is being supported by the | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
benefits system as the looks for a new job. We had to give up work | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
after being diagnosed with depression. The administration of | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
the system was full of errors and I was not given the help that I | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
needed. He believes welfare reform is needed and supports change. | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
introduction of in universal credit will be a simpler system, so | :52:41. | :52:50. | |
overall it should be beneficial. David is anxious about change. He | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
suffers from cerebral palsy and his disability living allowances such | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
to be replaced with a new personal independence payment. He is | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
concerned he might lose out because of plans to introduce new medical | :53:02. | :53:09. | |
tests. I am worried that the new assessments may be because they do | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
not know what the assessment is going to be based on. If you do not | :53:15. | :53:25. | |
:53:25. | :53:26. | ||
know something. With disability living allowance set to be cut by | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
20%, Capability Scotland are predicting that most disabled | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
people will lose out. Or only those with the more severe needs will | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
only see any kind of increase. It is also the additional fact in the | :53:39. | :53:46. | |
way the disabled people will be hit by those other benefits. They might | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
lose the Blue badge, these mean significant changes and disabled | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
people's lives. The UK government's say the reforms will end the cycle | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
of generations trapped in a life of benefits. Children's rights groups | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
fear that bill could plunge between 50 and 100,000 youngsters into | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
poverty. The campaigners say that with an estimated �2.5 billion cuts, | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
the changes will disproportionately affects Scotland. We have got | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
higher numbers of people claiming disability benefits. There is also | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
major concerns that the benefits will cut across a lot of Scottish | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
Government's policies like their housing policy and impact on their | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
homelessness policy costing more poverty and homelessness. So there | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
will be major problems for us here in Scotland. The Welfare Reform | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
Bill is Westminster's -- Westminster legislation. MSPs will | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
be required to vote to allow legislation on welfare reform for | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
the whole of the UK under a legislative consent motion. If MSPs | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
back their health and Sport Committee and to not passed a | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
motion, this means new Scottish legislation. You need to be clear | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
in the contentious parts of the Bill. We think it will be better | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
dealt within the Scottish Parliament and provide us with more | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
clarity, more scrutiny and we would be able to manage and mitigate as | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
best we can those impacts. committee concedes Holyrood will | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
not be able to stop welfare reform by introducing its own bill. | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
Citizens Advice Scotland are urging caution. What we do believe is that | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
if they do not pass allows litters of consent motion, it will have a | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
further effect of Scotland and will delay the Welfare Reform Bill | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
coming in and Scotland which could impact on people being able to | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
claim the benefits they are entitled to. The committee wants | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
Holyrood to set up a welfare and benefits committee to assess the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
impact of the changes to people like to fret over the coming years. | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
The Scottish Government's of -- response will be discussed in | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
Cabinet next week with the votes in Parliament before the Christmas | :56:01. | :56:09. | |
recess. We have but were Iain Duncan Smith over the past month | :56:09. | :56:17. | |
but he has been unavailable every time. We have Labour's health | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
spokesman Jackie Baillie. The deputy convener of the Health and | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
Sport Committee for the SNP, Bob Doris and for the Conservatives, | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
the deputy leader and health spokesman, Jackson Carlow. | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
Do think the Government will vote against us? I suspect his Scottish | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
Government will do that. Ice at the -- I understand they will review it. | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
The Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament want to | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
distance ourselves from was damaging aspects of these UK | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
welfare reforms. To voted down is the way to do it. We have to be | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
sure that we get the issue of passports to benefits correct if we | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
choose to do that. That is what we're processing. This is what | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
citizens advice are so concerned about. Briefly, if you do that, | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
will you have time to get something else and then plays? Absolutely. | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
The mechanism would be technical. We believe it can be done and | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
ideally it will be done. It is important that we stand their side | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
disabled people in Scotland, single parents, those are in social | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
housing, to take �2.5 billion out of benefits for these people is | :57:28. | :57:36. | |
unacceptable. Jackie Baillie, voting down and Elsie and has never | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
been done before. It was Labour that introduce the amendment | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
suggesting we follow this course of action. It is the case that these | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
are the most damaging changes to the welfare state surly and my | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
lifetime and they are having a disproportionate impact on people | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
in Scotland. When I consider the disabled, those affected by council | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
tax benefit changes, right across the board, Bob was right to | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
highlight it will mean a 2.5 billion cut in the income of Scots | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
moving ahead of the next few years. Beyond that, people are already | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
estimating an independent reports that the level of child poverty | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
will increase substantially. So yes it is about saying to the UK | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
Government we dislike the content of here UK welfare reform bill. It | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
is also saying to the Scottish Parliament, there will be | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
responsibilities about how they should be best employed in Scotland | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
to protect those most disadvantaged in our communities. We know from | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
Citizens Advice the key benefits that you have mentioned, if the | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
result if you for down the LC Ms then there is a delay in the Bill | :58:46. | :58:56. | |
:58:56. | :58:56. | ||
going through Westminster. Citizens Advice are concerned that that and | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
practice will mean delays in the most vulnerable people getting | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
these benefits. That is a risk you are running. There is no need for a | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
delay. All governments understand what potentially could happen here | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
and have prepared for those eventualities. We would not want to | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
delay benefits. The UK Government is operating an extremely tight | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
timetable to say all these changes need to be in by 20th April 13. We | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
think that we should extend that timetable so that things are were | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
through equally. Equally the Scottish Government is thinking | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
about what they should do. I had hoped they had would do so earlier. | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
I thought in areas they would have responsibility end, we would have | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
some answers about the principles about how they would operate. I | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
find it strange that a party that wants to control their welfare | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
state is not telling us the detail of what they would do. You can | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
respond to that in a moment. Jackson, the Conservatives attitude | :59:57. | :00:07. | |
:00:07. | :00:07. | ||
to the El cm? The whole purpose is to make Scotland to facilitate the | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
policy with the greatest days. There is no advantage to | :00:11. | :00:19. | |
Westminster. Every do not pass it - - if we do not pass it, it places | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
are further obligation to come forward with primal way legislation. | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
There is a question-mark over whether the timing of that can be | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
expedited or whether or not it will lead to the delays people fear. It | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
does not change the fundamental legislation and it is needed. Back | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
in 1997, Labour was advocating welfare reform. We have waited 13 | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
years for a Labour Government to get to grips with this. The public | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
understand it is an area that needs to be reformed. These are designed | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
to give people dignity by moving them out of benefit and back into | :00:57. | :01:06. | |
work. There are consequences. It is gesture politics I do not think it | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
will survive the scrutiny and they do not think it will change the | :01:09. | :01:17. | |
Let's look at something else. You want a committee set up to review | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
the impact of the Welfare Reform Bill. Can you respond? | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
It is not just to the SNP that are saying they want a committee set up. | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Three committees of the Scottish Parliament have looked at this and | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
all three have agreed that a welfare and benefits committee | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
should be set up. Another two committees also agreed. It was only | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
when we got to the lead committee that the Labour members decided not | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
to. They wanted set up for two reasons. They want to scrutinise | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
and analyse the impact of these you care reforms. They also want to | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
scrutinise the Scottish Government's approach to make them | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
-- to mitigating best. I have to say that we had three | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
committees doing this and the recommendation now is to have one. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
I am disappointed we have had more of a debate about form rather than | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
function. But you are talking about what the | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
UK is doing. It would be effective if you have a committee and scholar | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
and saying this is a specifically Scottish effect. | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
A have three committees currently charged with that, it will impact | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
on more members of the Scot is Parliament and their consciousness. | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
Also, we have broken the link between health, policy and welfare | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
reform. If you set up a separate committee that is what happens. I | :02:45. | :02:53. | |
am much more interested in talking about it. | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
I am inclined to agree. I do not think which committee looks at it | :02:58. | :03:06. | |
matters. We have a committee system. Is this your main concern? If a | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
committee has set up that protects the most vulnerable, should you | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
worry? My point is that I do not want a committee. It will not make | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
the Government's poll -- government position any more comfortable. I | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
think the current position is the right way forward. To argue that we | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
need another committee almost undermines the report we just | :03:29. | :03:38. | |
published, suggesting we were not effective. I do not believe that | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
was the true. We have to look at how it impacts | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
on Scotland. It is fragmented between three committees and we are | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
suggesting want to consolidate. I agree with one thing. But we | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
disagree on whether the committee should be established. The real | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
issue is these UK, Tory cuts coming to Scotland. We have to mitigate | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
the effects of these where we can. We have to make sure the Scottish | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
Government is up to the task. Two out of the B. | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
The final vote on the government's controversial sectarianism Bell, or | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
to give it its full title, the Offensive Behaviour at Football and | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
Threatening Communications Bill, is Scheduled for Wednesday this week | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
at Holyrood. This government-backed Bill is expected to be voted | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
through by the SNP majority. Scottish Labour have come up with | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
an 11 point action plan which they say is an alternative to tackle the | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
root causes of sectarianism without the need for new laws. | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
Last season was controversial. This better exchange at what has been | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
dubbed the shame game. And parcel bombs were sent to the Celtic | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
manager. These were just some of the incident that prompted the | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
Scottish Government to introduce new sectarian legislation. The | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
proposal will crack down on offence of behaviour that and around | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
football matches. But the Offensive Behaviour at Football and | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
Threatening Communications Bill has come under widespread criticism. It | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
was not backed at the last parliamentary hurdle calling bit | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
muddled, slapdash and a shambles. Legal experts have I caught some of | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
these concerns. It seems to me the Act is poorly | :05:35. | :05:44. | |
drafted and it is not clear what inciting racial, sorry, pictured, | :05:44. | :05:51. | |
means. -- hatred. People who the Act is to be applied to will | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
clearly not understand what it means. This could lead to injustice | :05:56. | :06:03. | |
and confusion. The society believes there are adequate defences | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
available to prosecutors with regard to the incidents around | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
sectarian behaviour at football matches and illegal use of the | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
Internet. The fans who will be affected by | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
the legislation also have their doubts. | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
I think education is the key. I think they need to print it in | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
law writing excite the what they can and cannot sing. It is not | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
clear. They have to tell us what you can | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
sing and what you cannot sing. It is all very well dishing out rules | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
but they have to make things clearer. | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
There is no need for that. The existing legislation is samples. | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
Now, Labour who have asked the government to withdraw their | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
legislation have come up with what they believe is a better way. Their | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
approach would complement existing laws. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
We need to think about a comprehensive plan which involves | :06:59. | :07:07. | |
churches, community groups, who are involved in fighting and | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
campaigning against sectarianism, and work within the set -- the | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
education system to impress on young people that we want | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
communities to come together and underpinning that should be a | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
national campaign spelling out a zero-tolerance approach to | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
sectarianism. Police and prosecutors support the | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
new Bell. The Government defends the proposal saying it is needed. | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
At the moment they think the fear and alarm test is not being met so | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
this will introduce something called a public order test which | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
will make it easier for them to arrest fans, even if nobody's piece | :07:48. | :07:54. | |
is technically being breached. The government says this is part of | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
a wider strategy. The Bill will face its final hurdle at Holyrood | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
this week. It is expected that SNP ministers will use their majority | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
and to pass it with the proposal becoming law by the middle of | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
January. We have Professor Tom Devine with | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
us. And from the Scottish Police Federation, the chairman Les Gray. | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
And from Oxford a legal blubber. He has come out of his sickbed to talk | :08:23. | :08:32. | |
to us. We start with what we hope is a basic principle, if I took a, | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
I know the consequences will be be. Do you know if that is what will | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
happen with this legislation? And not a toff. We have little | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
chance of the ordinary person on the street understanding court and | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
is not rendered criminals. As a lawyer and I understand -- our | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
struggle as well I am afraid. We're not really looked at the detail of | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the lot. Ideas like expressing hatred or things that are offensive | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
to the reasonable person, those are quite open ended concepts and if | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
you asked every member of parliament in Holyrood a series of | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
scenarios and try to get them to agree a universal agreement on what | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
was offences to reasonable persons, they might struggle to agree. Bob | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
practical effect does this have been trying to apply the law? | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
I think there are a number of aspects to this. From the | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
government's figures they expect this legislation to add something | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
like 150 new cases to the courts, so they envisage a limited | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
enforcement. From a police perspective this Bill is great | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
because it criminalise is all sorts of conduct in football, on the way | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
to football, and in pubs where football is shown, and that gives | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
them a lot of flexibility to identify those people they regard | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
as problematic than simply to enforce it against them. It is much | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
more problematic for the average fan who has certain songs they like | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
to sing to work out if their singing is criminal or not and that | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
does have implications for appeals. Before really believe this section, | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
it would seem that you do not have to cause public disorder and you | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
could still be charged even if you did not cause public disorder as we | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
heard in the club, even if there was nobody there to insight. | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
The definition in that section is that it would cause public disorder | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
and if there are police there to prevent it or nobody there to be | :10:41. | :10:50. | |
incited, that can be a case for the prosecution going forward. The bell | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
envisage a -- the Bill envisages introducing fictional figures into | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
the setting to say that if that person where there, it would be an | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
offence. We will talk about the reasonable person test later | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
because it does seem to be stretched here. Are you confident | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
that two officers will be able to apply the sequel across Scotland? | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
There will not understand yet because they have not had the | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
training but I am confident that when the Bill is finalised and the | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
training is coming out, I think they will. I find it amusing that | :11:27. | :11:35. | |
the fans think somebody should tell them what they can and cannot sing. | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
If we have got to the state that we have to tell reasonable minded | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
people and adults what they can and cannot sing and if we have to tell | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
them that something is or is not offences, then we are in trouble. | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
If somebody tells me the current situation is working fine, these | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
people are working -- and are living in a fantasy land. We have | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
hate crimes, the televised game with Hibernian does his Rangers, I | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
listened and was that game and I heard song after song which was | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
completely and utterly offences. It was the same with the way certain | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
Celtic fans and Hearts fans sing. People still turn around and say | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
everything is fine. It is not. I don't know if ever one is | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
suggesting the current legislation is very effective but that is | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
different to saying this legislation will cure it. If you | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
have a scenario with football fans in a pub watching a game on | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
television and somebody says something offensive and another | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
person post that on the internet, who do you arrest and what do you | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
charge them with? He would need evidence and | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
witnesses, as somebody posts something on the internet, that | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
person will be charged. The person who makes the remark and | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
the person who posts that remark? If there is sufficient evidence, | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
absolutely. Tom Devine, when you look at the | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
objectives here, the objective is presumably that sectarian and was | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
as applied so something has to happen. Do you think the law will | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
deliver what is needed? Absolutely not. The first thing is | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
that the law will not change the values and attitudes of people very | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
easily follow it certainly sends out signals and symbolism as if you | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
like. I think this is an act as spectacular own goal by the current | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
Scottish administration because of the fact there is a whole variety, | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
not only in lot, but in the enforcement practice by the police, | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
who are more robust than they were a year ago, but also by the | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
football authorities. The word sectarianism or sectarian is not | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
mentioned anywhere in this proposed legislation and the recent data | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
that has been released from the Sheriff courts and procurator | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
fiscal's evidence about sectarian aggravated breaches under section | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
74 Act of the 2003 Bell, that shows that only about 14 to 15% of all | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
Sir Teddy and related offences take place in or near a football ground. | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
-- sectarian and the -- sectarianism related. I heard the | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
singing yesterday as well on the radio. That is a question of not | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
only how you change the law but of how you enforce the existing law. | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
Something that could be effective would be banning these people from | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
football grounds for effect -- extended period saw for life. | :14:44. | :14:51. | |
Another development is that football authorities have set up | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
specific penalties, some of some potentially very punitive, for | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
football clubs where fans do not behave in a semi civilised way. I | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
would have thought given communications developments, given | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
the cameras that harder to rare now, given the fact that you know where | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
people are sitting during many games, Viscount many of these | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
offenders be extracted at the game, not necessarily at the game, but at | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
a later point. What harm can it do? I am sure some | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
people will be listening and will say, another raft of loss, what | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
harm can they do? The hermit could do, because this | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
is speculation, this is the future and we do not know, and the future | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
is not my period, but in terms of that aspect I think there is a | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
strong feeling among mainstream football fans, particularly those | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
who support the big Glasgow clubs, that they are being punished simply | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
for being people who come from a working-class background and are | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
loyal to their teams, they perceive themselves to be targeted for | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
having that particular identity. I am not saying that vision is | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
correct. But it is a possible perception. And that could actually | :16:17. | :16:27. | |
:16:27. | :16:28. | ||
have political consequences at the If we go back to that you lot of | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
this, the Government says it is a well-structured and interpreted | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
that policy. What do you think the reasonable person will have to do | :16:37. | :16:44. | |
you? It depends who's perspective we are taking here. If we take the | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
law officers perspective, the No these tests. If you go for the | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
average person, it will be problematic. We should remember how | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
we came to this passing. One of the big arguments advanced by the | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Scottish Government is that we need this legislation because of the | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
narrowing of the breach of the piece. One of the reasons it was | :17:08. | :17:18. | |
:17:18. | :17:20. | ||
narrowing it was because of fundamental civil liberties. I | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
think in this kind of context we have to bear that in mind. The | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
courts may be interpreted eating this legislation with a similar | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
problem. With a terminology they must bring in line with European | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
Convention. Thank you all for coming in. | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Tom, you are not being dismissed. You have to come back later for | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
more insights. They were due so hard here and still don't give you | :17:46. | :17:55. | |
a coffee. Cuts backs. During his trade mission to China, | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
the First Minister has link research and development on | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
renewables to human rights. In an unprecedented speech to the Central | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
Party School, Alex Salmond told senior officials there was now an | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
overwhelming case for climate justice and prizes -- emphasising | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
the role of renewables in cutting carbon emissions. He said those who | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
had done least to create a crisis when are suffering the most. We are | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
joined by Scotland's human rights commissioner Alan Millar. How | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
significant? -- how significant is it? It is very significant. Between | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
the Scottish Government and Mary Robinson, who is one of the world's | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
leading figures and promoting climate justice. The First | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
Minister's speech, I think, from any Government of a development | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
country in the world today is probably one of the most explicit | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
statements of support for the concept of climate justice, which | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
as you have just hinted that, is a recognition that climate change is | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
currently affecting millions of human beings around the world, and | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
dying lives and livelihoods and access to health and education. In | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
recognition of that and the contribution that developed | :19:14. | :19:22. | |
countries have made in causing that, countries like Scotland which are | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
now developing all kinds of renewable energy expertise and can | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
build a Green economy on that basis, I excepting they have to share that | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
responsibility to protect the developing world. Often people who | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
look at a human rights laws say they ate they are so nebulous. But | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
this is one that where there is a specific political application. | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
Also we were talking about welfare reform earlier on. Do you think | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
that is an area where we might see more challenges to welfare reforms | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
through the courts and Scotland and human rights laws similar to this | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
sort of momentum that is building up on this in England? Yes. I think | :20:04. | :20:14. | |
:20:14. | :20:18. | ||
there are some point. -- some point. In terms of the Welfare Reform Bill, | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
those who are most likely going to be most disproportionately impacted | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
who have contributed the least to the situation we are in. Because of | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
that unless the Welfare Reform Bill recognises that, there are likely | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
to be caught challenges from those who feel they have been | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
disproportionately harm by the effects of the Bill. The second | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
point, to avoid that and mitigate the effects of the bell, the | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
commission is working with the Government's, with politicians and | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
public have authorities, two judges human rights impact assessments so | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
when these difficult budgetary decisions are made, we do not wait | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
for the court challenges. We try and be more proactive, more | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
positive and ensure that these budgetary decisions are made in a | :21:05. | :21:13. | |
way that respects and does not proportionate let it go -- those | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
most less resilient to dealing with. You're are any significant position | :21:21. | :21:31. | |
:21:31. | :21:31. | ||
of the European group of National Human Rights institutions, this is | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
the first European Union held posts in Britain, what is this fair | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
impression of how Scotland is seen by human rights Practitioners in | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
Europe as compared with the UK as a whole? It is clear or tan so that | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
as to how the UK is can raise the first of all and then I will say | :21:49. | :21:57. | |
some things about Scotland. I had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
the Human Rights Commissioner for the Council of Europe. He is coming | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
to the UK next week and my understanding is that he will be | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
urging the UK Government not to retreat from its obligations under | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the European Convention of Human Rights. Not to repeal the Human | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
Rights Act and substitute for it a weaker UK Bill of Rights. Because | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
not only would that undermined the rights of those in the United | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
Kingdom, but we can the European system of protection. So those in | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Russia and Turkey would find their governments would be warmly | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
disposed to the UK's current proposal as chairman of the Council | :22:37. | :22:47. | |
:22:47. | :22:48. | ||
of Europe to have an opt-out from what exists. You have been advising | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
on a council of this. Do you think Scotland will say no? My senses | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
that is what will happen. It is unlikely Scottish Parliament would | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
agree to repeal of the Human Rights Act and a substitution of a weaker | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
UK Bill of Human Rights. I think we can do better and we could develop | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
an action plan of her own. Alan Millar, thank you very much for | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
that. Joining me, the Economist and | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
columnist for the Scotsman, George Kerevan. And back with us again, | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
the historian and author Tom Devine. George, let's look at Europe. What | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
you think? I think we spent the last two days in Europe looking at | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
the long end of the telescope. On Friday, did they get the euro | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
crisis salt? No they didn't. Nothing was decided on Friday. So I | :23:48. | :23:56. | |
predict things will be quite over Christmas. Come the New Year, | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
France's credit rating will be downgraded. We will have another | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
crisis. The reason why the Germans were so annoyed with David Cameron | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
is because he did not get the sound barrier. Germany wanted their | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
crisis away. They needed the sure of that and Cameron said no to that | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
because he was on a different trajectory and so they have fallen | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
out. The real issue is the economy and the European economy and the | :24:22. | :24:32. | |
:24:32. | :24:32. | ||
euro. What you think this means for the independence debate with an | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
Scotland if you can now say, look there is a pro-European culture in | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
Sense and drive and Scotland and there is an England. I think | :24:43. | :24:52. | |
England is moving in the opposite direction. This is not a criticism. | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
English culture has always been against the European cultural as. | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
We are part of Europe, we have to trade in Europe. We have to build | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
relationships. I think their current crisis means MPs will have | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
to think about what our European stances. It would be foolhardy of | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
Scotland to move out of the EU. you maintain your own currency? | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
euro is off the agenda. It is such damaged goods. The SNP position is | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
it will retain sterling. It has been done before. When island came | :25:29. | :25:39. | |
:25:39. | :25:44. | ||
out of the UK, --... What will happen in Scotland if Scotland kept | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
that Stirling wing, we would have Scottish pounds. Probably what | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
would happen is that there would be a tendency for our currency will | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
rise away from the link with the pound. The Scottish Government | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
would pick up vast amounts of foreign currency. It is do-able. | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
But you could maintain your own currency and not going to the EU is | :26:09. | :26:19. | |
well? We have to remember the Norwegian is not the EU formally it | :26:19. | :26:29. | |
:26:29. | :26:32. | ||
has to pay into it. Tom, the big picture. There seems to be, from | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
everyone we have spoken to today, this perception that Scotland is | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
more pro-European and has always been more pro-European than England. | :26:42. | :26:49. | |
Certainly the political picture seems to be if backbench Tories get | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
their way this will cause more problems. What's relationship has | :26:53. | :27:03. | |
:27:03. | :27:04. | ||
Scotland had? It has been intimate from bed 12 century onwards. The | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
great access of Scottish emigration bent towards Europe from the 12th | :27:09. | :27:19. | |
:27:19. | :27:22. | ||
and 13th century. Scotland has been impacted on by Europe at all levels. | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
We talk about the Great Scottish Enlightenment. That is infused with | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
the European intellectual concepts. The Scottish universities, the | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
ancient universities are built upon European foundations. If you take | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
the thing down to the present day, obviously Scotland then became very | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
much immersed in his British Empire. So you could say, like England, it | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
has been more a land to assist in the last 200 years. My own hope is | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
that Scotland returns to his ancient heritage because that is | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
what the future lies. Eliza been its European connections. Thank God | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
for those who hope for that. There is not any evidence at all and | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
modern Scotland of that brand of embittered euroscepticism which | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
exists, not across the whole of England as George has implied, but | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
surly in some of the Home Counties and more particularly in the | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
Conservative Party. So any Scottish Government the wants to move | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
forward in Europe, I think they will have a fairly Pharaoh of | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
global wind unless -- favourable wind and less of the complexities. | :28:37. | :28:47. | |
:28:47. | :28:48. | ||
I never thought I would feel sorry for David Cameron. Briefly, Nick | :28:48. | :28:57. | |
Clegg said today, if we do not have influence in Europe. Nick Clegg | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
says two things were never you speak to him. We are part of Europe | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
we have to be part of Europe. It is how you build bridges to it. Thank | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
you all very much indeed. We are out of time now. I am glad I | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
did not have to interrupt Professor Tom Devine. That is all from us | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
this week. We will be back at the same time next week when we will | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
have the first interview with the new Scottish Labour leader and a | :29:23. | :29:28. |