11/12/2011 The Politics Show Scotland


11/12/2011

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This week: Clegg and Cameron seemingly at war over Europe. Can

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the Prime Minister survive the deputy minister's fury over

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decisions in Europe? This celebration over what has been

:00:20.:00:28.

seen as a victory in Brussels. Is Britain headed for an EU exit?

:00:28.:00:32.

Can the Government really turn around the lives of Britain's

:00:32.:00:37.

problem families by the end of this Parliament. The committee secretary

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Eric Pickles thinks so, but how? On the Politics Show Scotland, what

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will be the impact on the independence debate here of what

:00:49.:00:54.

David Cameron has done in Europe? The Scottish response to the

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Westminster welfare reform bill, MSPs are divided over how to

:01:00.:01:06.

protect the most vulnerable. The new anti-sectarianism laws are due

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to go before the Scott Parliament. Do you understand them? And we will

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discuss the impact of the UK Bill With me, the formal political

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1661 seconds

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editor of the Observer, and the David Cameron said we would turn

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around the lives of the 125,000 most needy families. That is a bold

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claim. I think it is a bold claim and a

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bold objective of. Something needs to be done. Getting kids into

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school, people into jobs, and a reduction in anti-social behaviour.

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I think we have tended to be too complex and the way we deal with

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these families. And that will happen in the lifetime of this

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Parliament? Absolutely. Are we will make a

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significant difference. Truancy will be history? Petty

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crime will be history? We have good co-operation with

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local authorities. There is a broad political consensus on this. I

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would to authorities likes of Ford, Labour lead, which is doing a lot

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of work. We are seeing results in particular of authorities and we

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want to spread that into authorities throughout the country.

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Can I ask you about council tax. If the council tax goes up by more

:30:30.:30:37.

than 3.5%, local people should be consulted? What about the reverse,

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if a council wants to slash council tax but also cut services, should

:30:42.:30:45.

back council also have to go to a referendum?

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No, the job is to remove my powers of capping. I did not have powers

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to force councils to put up council tax. This is in place of me

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deciding. The people should decide. But of course this year, because of

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the off-fore we made, with the council tax freeze, we will give

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local authorities extra money to have that seal increase.

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:31:23.:31:28.

UN the Politics Show Scotland, how will David Cameron's European

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fallout affect the Independent debate? What can Scotland do if it

:31:37.:31:39.

doesn't like Westminster's planned welfare reforms? The Health

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Committee is divided on a controversial solution.

:31:41.:31:44.

New anti-sectarianism laws are set to go through on Wednesday. Are

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they legally literate or just a mess? And another gaping divide

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looms between Westminster and Edinburgh - the UK Bill of Rights.

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First, the news with Graham Stewart. It has emerged that the Financial

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Services Authority will be highly critical of its own role and to a

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report on the collapse of the Royal Bank of Scotland. The document to

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be released tomorrow will say the supervision exercised by the City

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watchdog was deficient in many aspects, and its staff lacked the

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skills to monitor such a large bank. RBS needed a bailout of �45-billion

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from taxpayers. The number of Scots worried about

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money problems has increased in the last year. Citizens Advice Scotland

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dealt with more than half a million issues, many of them about tax,

:32:25.:32:35.
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benefits and debt. Debts and benefits are deeper geishas. There

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was a 6% increase in debt issues, and a 6% increase in benefit issues.

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People are not getting enough income or are not getting the

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benefits they are entitled to. It is not people with minor issues but

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people who cannot afford to live. Scotland's poll lorry has won a

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tournament in the Middle East. It went down to the final hole.

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Let's take a look at the weather It will be an afternoon of sunshine

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and showers. The further east you are, it will be better weather.

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Some wintry showers in the North West. A mild afternoon with

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temperatures around six or seven degrees. When it's coming from the

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South West. This evening it will be dry, clear and cool but frequent

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showers across western parts. Temperatures around the ear for

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degrees. Thank you. I will be back with the

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Thank you very much. The fall-out from David Cameron's European

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stand-off intensify is this morning. But as the Prime Minister is

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determined to flood the Channel with clear blue water, what does

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that mean in terms of the independence debate? The cracks in

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the coalition are evident with the Deputy Prime Minister make like

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criticising the be top of the treaty saying, there was nothing

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bulldog about Britain hovering somewhere in the mid-Atlantic and

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that Britain would need to re- engage with Europe.

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I am bitterly disappointed with the outcome of last week's's summit.

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There is a real danger that over time, the United Kingdom will be

:34:42.:34:52.
:34:52.:34:52.

I think that is good for jokes, I do not think it is good for growth

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and for families up and down the country.

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The shadow Secretary is equally so it -- scathing.

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David Cameron decided not to secure this deal and has burnt so many

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relationships, even if he had gone in with a reasonable demand, he

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might not have been successful. This is a terrible indictment of

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the diplomatic skills of the Prime Minister and the failure to judge

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accurately the importance of Britain not being left in a room

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with nobody else there. We have the president of the

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Scottish Liberal Democrat party with us. Do you agree with Nick

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Clegg? Agree it is disappointing and there

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is a risk of the UK being isolated but I also think we have to

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acknowledge that the scale of the economic crisis is such that the

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eurozone countries and those in the waiting zone, and the UK, are in

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different places. We have a plan to deal with the deficit as a result

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of which we have had -- retained hour credit rating statists, Andy

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eurozone does not have that. It is not in a position to accommodate

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Britain with somewhat divergent needs. I agree with Nick Clegg in

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that we must not allow this difference to marginalise or

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isolate Britain or to undermine all of the treaty obligations to which

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we are signatory, at which the other member states have to

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acknowledge her role in. It is important we take a constructive

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attitude and make it clear we are not taking our tents home. The

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eurozone has left us rather than the other way around, to some

:36:37.:36:41.

extent. If your objective is to ensure you

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are not marginalised, it is difficult to see how you can

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achieve that now. Is it not the case that the Liberal Democrat

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position would be better served now in an independent Scotland, in

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Europe? An independent Scotland in Europe

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is a complete irrelevance. They don't even know which come and say

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they would use. Why should it be? You are looking

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at a principle here. A Scotland wants to be pro-European and acted

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in Europe, the mechanics can be worked out. But there this a basic

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fundamental liberal Democrat principle which seems to have been

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sacrificed. I do not accept any of that. There

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is an economic reality, many of us have political support for the

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union, the European Union, that is very important, but the idea that

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the UK with a separate currency and a separate economic plan, which has

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strong market support, to simply subordinate itself to other member

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states with different strategies and do not have the ability to

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accommodate our differences, then it is much more difficult. An

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independent Scotland would have a big problem using either Stirling

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or the euro, and Scotland's negotiating position would be weeks

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to non-existent. We are then the Stirling's on, and we need to have

:38:16.:38:25.
:38:26.:38:26.

the determination to deliver our plan. -- Sterling zone. We are not

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sulking, we are taking part. Are we want the euro to -- the euro to

:38:33.:38:37.

succeed. But at the moment we have a divergence of interests and we

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have to accept that. But as Liberal Democrats, who might

:38:41.:38:46.

want Britain to be a bigger part of Europe but what has been

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demonstrated is that when you agree something with David Cameron, he

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goes into talks, Nick Clegg is woken up at 4:30am and David

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Cameron delivers something make light describes as bitterly

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disappointing and against Britain's interests. You are not even talking

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I effectively to you coalition partners.

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Neither of us were there and I will no doubt hear from the Prime

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Minister Nick Clegg tomorrow about what happened. My understanding is

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that we agreed as a coalition government that we should see some

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recognition of the special interests of the UK's financial

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services. We did not going with a raft of renegotiation bed. You did

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not get that. And that was because the eurozone

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is in a much worse mess than the UK because they have no plan, and no

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deficit reduction strategy. President Sarkozy is facing

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oblivion, the Chancellor of Germany whose political situation is week,

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they are not in a position to listen to Britain. The Prime

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Minister was in a difficult position. It is not that we rather

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unreasonable but that they were unreasonable.

:40:01.:40:06.

How do you maintain a collision on a centrally important Liberal

:40:06.:40:09.

Democrat issued when you're on leader is saying he is bitterly

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disappointed? He feels we have been marginalised in Europe and that we

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have to redouble efforts to be engaged. How do you maintain the

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coalition? Can I say he is right about that

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but I looked at the BBC website which said that Clegg attacked

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Cameron, but that is not true. He did not blame the Prime Minister

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and I do not believe that the Labour Party or the SNP criticising

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us would find it any easier in a situation where desperate, panic-

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stricken eurozone members are anxious to get a deal which the UK

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is not even able to call cross. It would mean Europe dictating how we

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-- how we manage our economy while we are not part of theirs. I hope

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one day in the future we will have a successful euro zone, a strong

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euro and that one day, Britain might even join it, but I cannot

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see that happening soon and to deal with this desperate crisis, it is

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important that both sides recognise they are two different places, and

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we should move parallel and not against each other.

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If Thank you very much. Where does all of this leaves the

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constitutional debate in Scotland? How will Scotland's relationship

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with Europe there is the SNP won their independence referendum?

:41:35.:41:39.

David Cameron's decision to veto this treaty has left the UK looking

:41:39.:41:47.

more isolated than ever. But what does that mean for SNP's policy of

:41:47.:41:52.

independence in Europe? The process of joining the EU could be long,

:41:53.:41:58.

complex and costly. The idea that the SNP can take it

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for granted that Scotland would enter into the European Union

:42:01.:42:05.

without negotiation or consideration of these issues is

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entirely fanciful. One of Scotland's leading lawyers

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says that an independent Scotland would automatically be part of the

:42:14.:42:17.

year and that the European Court would strike down any attempt to

:42:17.:42:22.

deprive Scott of their existing European citizenship.

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All spot to watch existing EU citizens would be 10 that EU

:42:27.:42:32.

citizenship, and therefore be so session of Scotland or the break-up

:42:32.:42:35.

of the United Kingdom would not result in the loss of that

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citizenship so Scotland would remain a member of the year and it

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would be a question of the recognition of that membership by

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the other states. The Scottish Government would seek

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back recognition following a yes vote in the independence referendum.

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Scotland is part of the Europe -- European Union and an independent

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Scotland would continue to be a member of the European Union. With

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the rest of the UK it would remain in that state is.

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Other member states are reluctant to save much at all about an

:43:11.:43:16.

independent Scotland's relationship with the European Union. But the

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SNP have told me there would be no political attempt to block

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Scotland's membership. SNP policy is to keep the pound but

:43:26.:43:31.

only joined the euro after another referendum but the most senior

:43:31.:43:34.

Scott in the UK Treasury says that would leave an independent Scotland

:43:34.:43:38.

vulnerable. Scotland within its monetary union

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but fiscally independent, the eurozone crisis tells us that a

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strong control of fiscal control would have to be exercised

:43:50.:44:00.
:44:00.:44:03.

centrally. Scotland having its independence would present a risk.

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True Scot of Edinburgh university denies this would make Scottish

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membership of the single currency inevitable.

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Scotland could not be forced under European law to adopt the euro. It

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is true that new member states have to sign up for event will a session

:44:21.:44:26.

to the eurozone, but one of the conditions you have to meet us to

:44:26.:44:29.

be in what is called the exchange rate mechanism for at least two

:44:29.:44:34.

years. There is no provision in European law to require a country,

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coming into the Union, far less another country that is already in

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the union, to join that arrangement. Scotland's relationship with Europe

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would be steered by a coalition government. A Scotland vote to deal

:44:52.:44:56.

directly with the EU as a full member state, the decisions made in

:44:56.:45:06.
:45:06.:45:06.

the next four years would have huge Now we asked for an SNP Minister to

:45:06.:45:10.

discuss the issues on the programme this morning, but no one was

:45:10.:45:15.

available. But we do have two European expires with us - in our

:45:15.:45:22.

Europe -- Edinburgh studio, Dr David Howard who has the gene more

:45:22.:45:25.

ornate chair of European political economy at the University of

:45:25.:45:30.

Edinburgh. And in Glasgow with me is Dr Myrto Tsakatika from Glasgow

:45:30.:45:36.

University. We are does all this leave us now?

:45:36.:45:44.

It does raise the issue clearly of whether an independent Scotland

:45:44.:45:48.

have would want to join the European Union. It does make this a

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more salient issue. What is your sense of how Scotland is seen now

:45:56.:46:04.

within Europe? Scotland is certainly at region that punches

:46:04.:46:09.

above its weight within Europe. It is very well versed in policy now

:46:09.:46:19.
:46:19.:46:19.

works. It is accustomed to working within a multi-level setting. So I

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am not sure how the member states, what attitude they would have

:46:27.:46:30.

towards a potential Scottish application to join the European

:46:30.:46:36.

Union. There are has been some speculation about sudden -- some

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federal countries potentially raising objections because they

:46:40.:46:44.

would not want their own regions with on its claims to go down that

:46:44.:46:50.

route. But this is pure a tick speculative. More generally, his

:46:51.:46:55.

policy in more pro-Europe than England within Europe do you think?

:46:55.:47:01.

It is very difficult to say. David, if we look now at the mechanics of

:47:01.:47:06.

all of this. We have had legal advice on the first -- last few

:47:06.:47:10.

months, is the bottom line not we do not know we are going here

:47:10.:47:16.

illegally, we do not know what the outcomes could be, it is all

:47:16.:47:22.

uncharted Chad to it? There scholar becomes a full member of the

:47:22.:47:27.

European Union from independence, it will not have an opt-out. It

:47:27.:47:33.

will be difficult to see the opt out that the United Kingdom

:47:33.:47:41.

negotiated for itself, and Ned -- Denmark negotiated, if Scotland is

:47:41.:47:44.

not an automatic member of the EU and has applied for membership,

:47:44.:47:50.

then an opt-out would definitely not apply. Because a new member

:47:50.:47:54.

state joining cannot normally, there is no precedent, of such a

:47:54.:48:00.

member state getting an opt-out from day one. Scotland is in a

:48:00.:48:04.

position where it is eventually expected to join the euro, but it

:48:04.:48:13.

will not be forced to join the euro at -- in the next few years. Other

:48:13.:48:17.

countries have fudged this for quite a long time. This seemed to

:48:17.:48:23.

be a Gordon Brown strategy. You think it there is that legal we

:48:23.:48:27.

wait there? Do there is no fundamental difference between the

:48:27.:48:33.

SNP policy today and the Government -- former Labour Government policy

:48:33.:48:37.

or even Conservative policy. All the major parties in this country

:48:37.:48:45.

believed that potentially United Kingdom, Scotland, could join the

:48:45.:48:50.

euro. But it would be subject to a referendum and it would only take

:48:50.:48:58.

place if the economic conditions are right. And, of course, we have

:48:58.:49:03.

seen defining when those conditions are right is very difficult. What

:49:03.:49:07.

about another had a letter -- hypothetical question, if Scotland

:49:07.:49:12.

had its own currency, you seem to suggest this could not happen, but

:49:12.:49:17.

if it did, could it then maintain its own currency and have

:49:17.:49:22.

membership of the EU and would that be way out of all this? This is

:49:22.:49:25.

what Alan Smith the SNP member of the European Parliament has

:49:25.:49:30.

proposed. Yes, it is the one sensible option. It gets the around

:49:30.:49:35.

the issue of Professor Scott was referring to, about Scotland not

:49:35.:49:41.

being able to become a member of the exchanger of mechanism. It

:49:42.:49:47.

would be a potentially sensible strategy for political reasons Cup

:49:47.:49:53.

and legal reasons, but of course would it be a sensible strategy

:49:53.:49:57.

economically? Many people would have severe doubts about the idea

:49:57.:50:02.

of Scotland adopting its own currency in the medium term.

:50:02.:50:05.

Especially after independence when there would be a lot of trepidation

:50:05.:50:10.

in the markets about the direction of an independent Scotland's

:50:10.:50:15.

economic policy. When you look get the timing, would Scotland be able

:50:15.:50:19.

to dictate the timing absolutely have when it got into the euro? Or

:50:19.:50:23.

will not be that straightforward ever goes into the euro? Well, what

:50:23.:50:30.

we have seen after the first group of countries forming the eurozone

:50:30.:50:34.

and the currencies started to circulate it is that there are

:50:34.:50:38.

different politics that the country's a dot on the run-up to

:50:38.:50:42.

joining the eurozone. For example, or wheezy smaller countries have

:50:42.:50:52.
:50:52.:50:58.

rushed to join the eurozone. That shows that there is considerable

:50:58.:51:05.

leeway. As David mentioned before or about when countries actually

:51:05.:51:10.

obliged, are obliged to join the euro. Do you agree with the

:51:10.:51:14.

analysis earlier that the relationship with London is going

:51:14.:51:20.

to be important year in terms of what happens with Scotland was my

:51:20.:51:25.

relationship with the you? Absolutely. The conditions under

:51:25.:51:29.

Scotland will ask for membership, if it will have to ask for

:51:29.:51:35.

membership. And also negotiations about particular policy areas, the

:51:35.:51:39.

opt-outs, the politics and strategic alliances that Scotland

:51:39.:51:44.

can form with than the Europe. These will be essential and in the

:51:44.:51:47.

way in which independence could potentially happen will play a

:51:47.:51:53.

major role. Thank you both very much indeed.

:51:53.:51:56.

Now Scottish Ministers have been urged to think about how new laws

:51:56.:52:03.

to said -- soften the significant changes to their UK benefits system

:52:03.:52:08.

will work out. In a report into the Welfare Reform Bill, Holyrood's

:52:08.:52:11.

Health Committee is warning that the changes could mean cuts in

:52:11.:52:16.

payments to the most vulnerable. Stephen is being supported by the

:52:16.:52:20.

benefits system as the looks for a new job. We had to give up work

:52:20.:52:26.

after being diagnosed with depression. The administration of

:52:26.:52:30.

the system was full of errors and I was not given the help that I

:52:30.:52:36.

needed. He believes welfare reform is needed and supports change.

:52:36.:52:41.

introduction of in universal credit will be a simpler system, so

:52:41.:52:50.

overall it should be beneficial. David is anxious about change. He

:52:50.:52:54.

suffers from cerebral palsy and his disability living allowances such

:52:54.:52:58.

to be replaced with a new personal independence payment. He is

:52:58.:53:02.

concerned he might lose out because of plans to introduce new medical

:53:02.:53:09.

tests. I am worried that the new assessments may be because they do

:53:09.:53:15.

not know what the assessment is going to be based on. If you do not

:53:15.:53:25.
:53:25.:53:26.

know something. With disability living allowance set to be cut by

:53:26.:53:29.

20%, Capability Scotland are predicting that most disabled

:53:29.:53:34.

people will lose out. Or only those with the more severe needs will

:53:34.:53:39.

only see any kind of increase. It is also the additional fact in the

:53:39.:53:46.

way the disabled people will be hit by those other benefits. They might

:53:46.:53:50.

lose the Blue badge, these mean significant changes and disabled

:53:50.:53:54.

people's lives. The UK government's say the reforms will end the cycle

:53:54.:53:59.

of generations trapped in a life of benefits. Children's rights groups

:53:59.:54:03.

fear that bill could plunge between 50 and 100,000 youngsters into

:54:03.:54:09.

poverty. The campaigners say that with an estimated �2.5 billion cuts,

:54:09.:54:14.

the changes will disproportionately affects Scotland. We have got

:54:14.:54:19.

higher numbers of people claiming disability benefits. There is also

:54:19.:54:23.

major concerns that the benefits will cut across a lot of Scottish

:54:23.:54:27.

Government's policies like their housing policy and impact on their

:54:28.:54:31.

homelessness policy costing more poverty and homelessness. So there

:54:31.:54:36.

will be major problems for us here in Scotland. The Welfare Reform

:54:36.:54:42.

Bill is Westminster's -- Westminster legislation. MSPs will

:54:42.:54:46.

be required to vote to allow legislation on welfare reform for

:54:46.:54:52.

the whole of the UK under a legislative consent motion. If MSPs

:54:52.:54:55.

back their health and Sport Committee and to not passed a

:54:55.:55:00.

motion, this means new Scottish legislation. You need to be clear

:55:01.:55:04.

in the contentious parts of the Bill. We think it will be better

:55:04.:55:08.

dealt within the Scottish Parliament and provide us with more

:55:08.:55:12.

clarity, more scrutiny and we would be able to manage and mitigate as

:55:12.:55:17.

best we can those impacts. committee concedes Holyrood will

:55:17.:55:23.

not be able to stop welfare reform by introducing its own bill.

:55:23.:55:27.

Citizens Advice Scotland are urging caution. What we do believe is that

:55:27.:55:32.

if they do not pass allows litters of consent motion, it will have a

:55:32.:55:36.

further effect of Scotland and will delay the Welfare Reform Bill

:55:36.:55:39.

coming in and Scotland which could impact on people being able to

:55:40.:55:43.

claim the benefits they are entitled to. The committee wants

:55:43.:55:47.

Holyrood to set up a welfare and benefits committee to assess the

:55:47.:55:52.

impact of the changes to people like to fret over the coming years.

:55:52.:55:56.

The Scottish Government's of -- response will be discussed in

:55:56.:56:01.

Cabinet next week with the votes in Parliament before the Christmas

:56:01.:56:09.

recess. We have but were Iain Duncan Smith over the past month

:56:09.:56:17.

but he has been unavailable every time. We have Labour's health

:56:17.:56:20.

spokesman Jackie Baillie. The deputy convener of the Health and

:56:20.:56:25.

Sport Committee for the SNP, Bob Doris and for the Conservatives,

:56:25.:56:29.

the deputy leader and health spokesman, Jackson Carlow.

:56:29.:56:33.

Do think the Government will vote against us? I suspect his Scottish

:56:33.:56:39.

Government will do that. Ice at the -- I understand they will review it.

:56:39.:56:43.

The Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament want to

:56:43.:56:46.

distance ourselves from was damaging aspects of these UK

:56:46.:56:51.

welfare reforms. To voted down is the way to do it. We have to be

:56:51.:56:54.

sure that we get the issue of passports to benefits correct if we

:56:55.:57:01.

choose to do that. That is what we're processing. This is what

:57:01.:57:04.

citizens advice are so concerned about. Briefly, if you do that,

:57:04.:57:09.

will you have time to get something else and then plays? Absolutely.

:57:09.:57:14.

The mechanism would be technical. We believe it can be done and

:57:14.:57:18.

ideally it will be done. It is important that we stand their side

:57:18.:57:23.

disabled people in Scotland, single parents, those are in social

:57:23.:57:28.

housing, to take �2.5 billion out of benefits for these people is

:57:28.:57:36.

unacceptable. Jackie Baillie, voting down and Elsie and has never

:57:36.:57:41.

been done before. It was Labour that introduce the amendment

:57:41.:57:44.

suggesting we follow this course of action. It is the case that these

:57:44.:57:48.

are the most damaging changes to the welfare state surly and my

:57:49.:57:52.

lifetime and they are having a disproportionate impact on people

:57:52.:57:57.

in Scotland. When I consider the disabled, those affected by council

:57:57.:58:00.

tax benefit changes, right across the board, Bob was right to

:58:01.:58:04.

highlight it will mean a 2.5 billion cut in the income of Scots

:58:04.:58:09.

moving ahead of the next few years. Beyond that, people are already

:58:09.:58:13.

estimating an independent reports that the level of child poverty

:58:13.:58:17.

will increase substantially. So yes it is about saying to the UK

:58:17.:58:21.

Government we dislike the content of here UK welfare reform bill. It

:58:21.:58:27.

is also saying to the Scottish Parliament, there will be

:58:27.:58:31.

responsibilities about how they should be best employed in Scotland

:58:31.:58:38.

to protect those most disadvantaged in our communities. We know from

:58:38.:58:42.

Citizens Advice the key benefits that you have mentioned, if the

:58:42.:58:46.

result if you for down the LC Ms then there is a delay in the Bill

:58:46.:58:56.
:58:56.:58:56.

going through Westminster. Citizens Advice are concerned that that and

:58:56.:58:59.

practice will mean delays in the most vulnerable people getting

:58:59.:59:04.

these benefits. That is a risk you are running. There is no need for a

:59:04.:59:07.

delay. All governments understand what potentially could happen here

:59:07.:59:11.

and have prepared for those eventualities. We would not want to

:59:11.:59:16.

delay benefits. The UK Government is operating an extremely tight

:59:16.:59:21.

timetable to say all these changes need to be in by 20th April 13. We

:59:21.:59:26.

think that we should extend that timetable so that things are were

:59:26.:59:29.

through equally. Equally the Scottish Government is thinking

:59:29.:59:34.

about what they should do. I had hoped they had would do so earlier.

:59:34.:59:40.

I thought in areas they would have responsibility end, we would have

:59:40.:59:44.

some answers about the principles about how they would operate. I

:59:44.:59:47.

find it strange that a party that wants to control their welfare

:59:47.:59:51.

state is not telling us the detail of what they would do. You can

:59:51.:59:57.

respond to that in a moment. Jackson, the Conservatives attitude

:59:57.:00:07.
:00:07.:00:07.

to the El cm? The whole purpose is to make Scotland to facilitate the

:00:07.:00:11.

policy with the greatest days. There is no advantage to

:00:11.:00:19.

Westminster. Every do not pass it - - if we do not pass it, it places

:00:19.:00:23.

are further obligation to come forward with primal way legislation.

:00:23.:00:28.

There is a question-mark over whether the timing of that can be

:00:28.:00:32.

expedited or whether or not it will lead to the delays people fear. It

:00:32.:00:37.

does not change the fundamental legislation and it is needed. Back

:00:37.:00:45.

in 1997, Labour was advocating welfare reform. We have waited 13

:00:45.:00:49.

years for a Labour Government to get to grips with this. The public

:00:49.:00:52.

understand it is an area that needs to be reformed. These are designed

:00:53.:00:57.

to give people dignity by moving them out of benefit and back into

:00:57.:01:06.

work. There are consequences. It is gesture politics I do not think it

:01:06.:01:08.

will survive the scrutiny and they do not think it will change the

:01:09.:01:17.

Let's look at something else. You want a committee set up to review

:01:17.:01:24.

the impact of the Welfare Reform Bill. Can you respond?

:01:24.:01:30.

It is not just to the SNP that are saying they want a committee set up.

:01:30.:01:34.

Three committees of the Scottish Parliament have looked at this and

:01:34.:01:37.

all three have agreed that a welfare and benefits committee

:01:37.:01:42.

should be set up. Another two committees also agreed. It was only

:01:42.:01:46.

when we got to the lead committee that the Labour members decided not

:01:46.:01:53.

to. They wanted set up for two reasons. They want to scrutinise

:01:53.:01:59.

and analyse the impact of these you care reforms. They also want to

:01:59.:02:02.

scrutinise the Scottish Government's approach to make them

:02:02.:02:06.

-- to mitigating best. I have to say that we had three

:02:06.:02:10.

committees doing this and the recommendation now is to have one.

:02:10.:02:14.

I am disappointed we have had more of a debate about form rather than

:02:14.:02:17.

function. But you are talking about what the

:02:17.:02:21.

UK is doing. It would be effective if you have a committee and scholar

:02:21.:02:27.

and saying this is a specifically Scottish effect.

:02:27.:02:30.

A have three committees currently charged with that, it will impact

:02:31.:02:34.

on more members of the Scot is Parliament and their consciousness.

:02:35.:02:40.

Also, we have broken the link between health, policy and welfare

:02:40.:02:45.

reform. If you set up a separate committee that is what happens. I

:02:45.:02:53.

am much more interested in talking about it.

:02:53.:02:57.

I am inclined to agree. I do not think which committee looks at it

:02:58.:03:06.

matters. We have a committee system. Is this your main concern? If a

:03:06.:03:10.

committee has set up that protects the most vulnerable, should you

:03:10.:03:16.

worry? My point is that I do not want a committee. It will not make

:03:16.:03:20.

the Government's poll -- government position any more comfortable. I

:03:20.:03:24.

think the current position is the right way forward. To argue that we

:03:24.:03:29.

need another committee almost undermines the report we just

:03:29.:03:38.

published, suggesting we were not effective. I do not believe that

:03:38.:03:43.

was the true. We have to look at how it impacts

:03:43.:03:48.

on Scotland. It is fragmented between three committees and we are

:03:48.:03:52.

suggesting want to consolidate. I agree with one thing. But we

:03:52.:03:57.

disagree on whether the committee should be established. The real

:03:57.:04:02.

issue is these UK, Tory cuts coming to Scotland. We have to mitigate

:04:02.:04:07.

the effects of these where we can. We have to make sure the Scottish

:04:07.:04:17.

Government is up to the task. Two out of the B.

:04:17.:04:22.

The final vote on the government's controversial sectarianism Bell, or

:04:22.:04:25.

to give it its full title, the Offensive Behaviour at Football and

:04:25.:04:28.

Threatening Communications Bill, is Scheduled for Wednesday this week

:04:29.:04:32.

at Holyrood. This government-backed Bill is expected to be voted

:04:32.:04:38.

through by the SNP majority. Scottish Labour have come up with

:04:38.:04:41.

an 11 point action plan which they say is an alternative to tackle the

:04:41.:04:46.

root causes of sectarianism without the need for new laws.

:04:46.:04:52.

Last season was controversial. This better exchange at what has been

:04:52.:04:58.

dubbed the shame game. And parcel bombs were sent to the Celtic

:04:58.:05:03.

manager. These were just some of the incident that prompted the

:05:03.:05:07.

Scottish Government to introduce new sectarian legislation. The

:05:07.:05:12.

proposal will crack down on offence of behaviour that and around

:05:12.:05:15.

football matches. But the Offensive Behaviour at Football and

:05:15.:05:21.

Threatening Communications Bill has come under widespread criticism. It

:05:21.:05:26.

was not backed at the last parliamentary hurdle calling bit

:05:26.:05:31.

muddled, slapdash and a shambles. Legal experts have I caught some of

:05:31.:05:35.

these concerns. It seems to me the Act is poorly

:05:35.:05:44.

drafted and it is not clear what inciting racial, sorry, pictured,

:05:44.:05:51.

means. -- hatred. People who the Act is to be applied to will

:05:52.:05:56.

clearly not understand what it means. This could lead to injustice

:05:56.:06:03.

and confusion. The society believes there are adequate defences

:06:03.:06:06.

available to prosecutors with regard to the incidents around

:06:06.:06:10.

sectarian behaviour at football matches and illegal use of the

:06:10.:06:16.

Internet. The fans who will be affected by

:06:16.:06:18.

the legislation also have their doubts.

:06:18.:06:24.

I think education is the key. I think they need to print it in

:06:24.:06:28.

law writing excite the what they can and cannot sing. It is not

:06:28.:06:31.

clear. They have to tell us what you can

:06:31.:06:34.

sing and what you cannot sing. It is all very well dishing out rules

:06:35.:06:37.

but they have to make things clearer.

:06:37.:06:43.

There is no need for that. The existing legislation is samples.

:06:43.:06:46.

Now, Labour who have asked the government to withdraw their

:06:46.:06:52.

legislation have come up with what they believe is a better way. Their

:06:52.:06:55.

approach would complement existing laws.

:06:55.:06:59.

We need to think about a comprehensive plan which involves

:06:59.:07:07.

churches, community groups, who are involved in fighting and

:07:07.:07:12.

campaigning against sectarianism, and work within the set -- the

:07:12.:07:14.

education system to impress on young people that we want

:07:14.:07:19.

communities to come together and underpinning that should be a

:07:19.:07:22.

national campaign spelling out a zero-tolerance approach to

:07:22.:07:27.

sectarianism. Police and prosecutors support the

:07:27.:07:34.

new Bell. The Government defends the proposal saying it is needed.

:07:34.:07:38.

At the moment they think the fear and alarm test is not being met so

:07:38.:07:41.

this will introduce something called a public order test which

:07:41.:07:48.

will make it easier for them to arrest fans, even if nobody's piece

:07:48.:07:54.

is technically being breached. The government says this is part of

:07:54.:07:59.

a wider strategy. The Bill will face its final hurdle at Holyrood

:07:59.:08:04.

this week. It is expected that SNP ministers will use their majority

:08:04.:08:08.

and to pass it with the proposal becoming law by the middle of

:08:08.:08:12.

January. We have Professor Tom Devine with

:08:12.:08:18.

us. And from the Scottish Police Federation, the chairman Les Gray.

:08:18.:08:23.

And from Oxford a legal blubber. He has come out of his sickbed to talk

:08:23.:08:32.

to us. We start with what we hope is a basic principle, if I took a,

:08:32.:08:37.

I know the consequences will be be. Do you know if that is what will

:08:37.:08:41.

happen with this legislation? And not a toff. We have little

:08:41.:08:45.

chance of the ordinary person on the street understanding court and

:08:45.:08:50.

is not rendered criminals. As a lawyer and I understand -- our

:08:50.:08:56.

struggle as well I am afraid. We're not really looked at the detail of

:08:56.:09:00.

the lot. Ideas like expressing hatred or things that are offensive

:09:00.:09:04.

to the reasonable person, those are quite open ended concepts and if

:09:04.:09:09.

you asked every member of parliament in Holyrood a series of

:09:09.:09:15.

scenarios and try to get them to agree a universal agreement on what

:09:16.:09:21.

was offences to reasonable persons, they might struggle to agree. Bob

:09:21.:09:27.

practical effect does this have been trying to apply the law?

:09:27.:09:32.

I think there are a number of aspects to this. From the

:09:32.:09:36.

government's figures they expect this legislation to add something

:09:36.:09:41.

like 150 new cases to the courts, so they envisage a limited

:09:41.:09:45.

enforcement. From a police perspective this Bill is great

:09:45.:09:49.

because it criminalise is all sorts of conduct in football, on the way

:09:50.:09:54.

to football, and in pubs where football is shown, and that gives

:09:54.:09:58.

them a lot of flexibility to identify those people they regard

:09:58.:10:03.

as problematic than simply to enforce it against them. It is much

:10:03.:10:08.

more problematic for the average fan who has certain songs they like

:10:08.:10:11.

to sing to work out if their singing is criminal or not and that

:10:11.:10:19.

does have implications for appeals. Before really believe this section,

:10:19.:10:22.

it would seem that you do not have to cause public disorder and you

:10:22.:10:26.

could still be charged even if you did not cause public disorder as we

:10:26.:10:33.

heard in the club, even if there was nobody there to insight.

:10:33.:10:37.

The definition in that section is that it would cause public disorder

:10:37.:10:41.

and if there are police there to prevent it or nobody there to be

:10:41.:10:50.

incited, that can be a case for the prosecution going forward. The bell

:10:51.:10:55.

envisage a -- the Bill envisages introducing fictional figures into

:10:55.:10:58.

the setting to say that if that person where there, it would be an

:10:58.:11:03.

offence. We will talk about the reasonable person test later

:11:03.:11:06.

because it does seem to be stretched here. Are you confident

:11:06.:11:11.

that two officers will be able to apply the sequel across Scotland?

:11:11.:11:15.

There will not understand yet because they have not had the

:11:15.:11:21.

training but I am confident that when the Bill is finalised and the

:11:21.:11:27.

training is coming out, I think they will. I find it amusing that

:11:27.:11:35.

the fans think somebody should tell them what they can and cannot sing.

:11:35.:11:39.

If we have got to the state that we have to tell reasonable minded

:11:39.:11:43.

people and adults what they can and cannot sing and if we have to tell

:11:43.:11:49.

them that something is or is not offences, then we are in trouble.

:11:49.:11:52.

If somebody tells me the current situation is working fine, these

:11:52.:11:58.

people are working -- and are living in a fantasy land. We have

:11:58.:12:03.

hate crimes, the televised game with Hibernian does his Rangers, I

:12:03.:12:07.

listened and was that game and I heard song after song which was

:12:07.:12:12.

completely and utterly offences. It was the same with the way certain

:12:12.:12:17.

Celtic fans and Hearts fans sing. People still turn around and say

:12:17.:12:23.

everything is fine. It is not. I don't know if ever one is

:12:23.:12:26.

suggesting the current legislation is very effective but that is

:12:26.:12:30.

different to saying this legislation will cure it. If you

:12:30.:12:33.

have a scenario with football fans in a pub watching a game on

:12:33.:12:36.

television and somebody says something offensive and another

:12:36.:12:40.

person post that on the internet, who do you arrest and what do you

:12:40.:12:44.

charge them with? He would need evidence and

:12:44.:12:48.

witnesses, as somebody posts something on the internet, that

:12:48.:12:53.

person will be charged. The person who makes the remark and

:12:53.:12:58.

the person who posts that remark? If there is sufficient evidence,

:12:58.:13:04.

absolutely. Tom Devine, when you look at the

:13:05.:13:09.

objectives here, the objective is presumably that sectarian and was

:13:09.:13:16.

as applied so something has to happen. Do you think the law will

:13:16.:13:21.

deliver what is needed? Absolutely not. The first thing is

:13:21.:13:25.

that the law will not change the values and attitudes of people very

:13:26.:13:29.

easily follow it certainly sends out signals and symbolism as if you

:13:29.:13:35.

like. I think this is an act as spectacular own goal by the current

:13:35.:13:39.

Scottish administration because of the fact there is a whole variety,

:13:39.:13:44.

not only in lot, but in the enforcement practice by the police,

:13:44.:13:48.

who are more robust than they were a year ago, but also by the

:13:49.:13:52.

football authorities. The word sectarianism or sectarian is not

:13:52.:13:57.

mentioned anywhere in this proposed legislation and the recent data

:13:57.:14:02.

that has been released from the Sheriff courts and procurator

:14:02.:14:07.

fiscal's evidence about sectarian aggravated breaches under section

:14:07.:14:14.

74 Act of the 2003 Bell, that shows that only about 14 to 15% of all

:14:14.:14:20.

Sir Teddy and related offences take place in or near a football ground.

:14:20.:14:25.

-- sectarian and the -- sectarianism related. I heard the

:14:25.:14:29.

singing yesterday as well on the radio. That is a question of not

:14:29.:14:34.

only how you change the law but of how you enforce the existing law.

:14:34.:14:40.

Something that could be effective would be banning these people from

:14:40.:14:44.

football grounds for effect -- extended period saw for life.

:14:44.:14:51.

Another development is that football authorities have set up

:14:51.:14:56.

specific penalties, some of some potentially very punitive, for

:14:56.:15:01.

football clubs where fans do not behave in a semi civilised way. I

:15:01.:15:05.

would have thought given communications developments, given

:15:05.:15:10.

the cameras that harder to rare now, given the fact that you know where

:15:10.:15:14.

people are sitting during many games, Viscount many of these

:15:14.:15:20.

offenders be extracted at the game, not necessarily at the game, but at

:15:20.:15:25.

a later point. What harm can it do? I am sure some

:15:25.:15:30.

people will be listening and will say, another raft of loss, what

:15:30.:15:35.

harm can they do? The hermit could do, because this

:15:35.:15:40.

is speculation, this is the future and we do not know, and the future

:15:40.:15:45.

is not my period, but in terms of that aspect I think there is a

:15:45.:15:49.

strong feeling among mainstream football fans, particularly those

:15:50.:15:53.

who support the big Glasgow clubs, that they are being punished simply

:15:53.:15:59.

for being people who come from a working-class background and are

:15:59.:16:05.

loyal to their teams, they perceive themselves to be targeted for

:16:05.:16:10.

having that particular identity. I am not saying that vision is

:16:10.:16:17.

correct. But it is a possible perception. And that could actually

:16:17.:16:27.
:16:27.:16:28.

have political consequences at the If we go back to that you lot of

:16:28.:16:34.

this, the Government says it is a well-structured and interpreted

:16:34.:16:37.

that policy. What do you think the reasonable person will have to do

:16:37.:16:44.

you? It depends who's perspective we are taking here. If we take the

:16:44.:16:49.

law officers perspective, the No these tests. If you go for the

:16:49.:16:55.

average person, it will be problematic. We should remember how

:16:55.:17:00.

we came to this passing. One of the big arguments advanced by the

:17:00.:17:04.

Scottish Government is that we need this legislation because of the

:17:04.:17:08.

narrowing of the breach of the piece. One of the reasons it was

:17:08.:17:18.
:17:18.:17:20.

narrowing it was because of fundamental civil liberties. I

:17:20.:17:25.

think in this kind of context we have to bear that in mind. The

:17:25.:17:28.

courts may be interpreted eating this legislation with a similar

:17:29.:17:33.

problem. With a terminology they must bring in line with European

:17:33.:17:37.

Convention. Thank you all for coming in.

:17:37.:17:41.

Tom, you are not being dismissed. You have to come back later for

:17:41.:17:46.

more insights. They were due so hard here and still don't give you

:17:46.:17:55.

a coffee. Cuts backs. During his trade mission to China,

:17:55.:17:58.

the First Minister has link research and development on

:17:58.:18:03.

renewables to human rights. In an unprecedented speech to the Central

:18:03.:18:08.

Party School, Alex Salmond told senior officials there was now an

:18:08.:18:12.

overwhelming case for climate justice and prizes -- emphasising

:18:12.:18:17.

the role of renewables in cutting carbon emissions. He said those who

:18:17.:18:21.

had done least to create a crisis when are suffering the most. We are

:18:21.:18:26.

joined by Scotland's human rights commissioner Alan Millar. How

:18:26.:18:33.

significant? -- how significant is it? It is very significant. Between

:18:33.:18:40.

the Scottish Government and Mary Robinson, who is one of the world's

:18:40.:18:44.

leading figures and promoting climate justice. The First

:18:44.:18:49.

Minister's speech, I think, from any Government of a development

:18:49.:18:52.

country in the world today is probably one of the most explicit

:18:52.:18:57.

statements of support for the concept of climate justice, which

:18:57.:19:02.

as you have just hinted that, is a recognition that climate change is

:19:02.:19:07.

currently affecting millions of human beings around the world, and

:19:07.:19:12.

dying lives and livelihoods and access to health and education. In

:19:12.:19:14.

recognition of that and the contribution that developed

:19:14.:19:22.

countries have made in causing that, countries like Scotland which are

:19:22.:19:27.

now developing all kinds of renewable energy expertise and can

:19:27.:19:33.

build a Green economy on that basis, I excepting they have to share that

:19:33.:19:39.

responsibility to protect the developing world. Often people who

:19:39.:19:43.

look at a human rights laws say they ate they are so nebulous. But

:19:43.:19:47.

this is one that where there is a specific political application.

:19:47.:19:51.

Also we were talking about welfare reform earlier on. Do you think

:19:51.:19:55.

that is an area where we might see more challenges to welfare reforms

:19:55.:19:59.

through the courts and Scotland and human rights laws similar to this

:19:59.:20:04.

sort of momentum that is building up on this in England? Yes. I think

:20:04.:20:14.
:20:14.:20:18.

there are some point. -- some point. In terms of the Welfare Reform Bill,

:20:18.:20:24.

those who are most likely going to be most disproportionately impacted

:20:24.:20:29.

who have contributed the least to the situation we are in. Because of

:20:29.:20:33.

that unless the Welfare Reform Bill recognises that, there are likely

:20:33.:20:36.

to be caught challenges from those who feel they have been

:20:37.:20:40.

disproportionately harm by the effects of the Bill. The second

:20:40.:20:45.

point, to avoid that and mitigate the effects of the bell, the

:20:45.:20:50.

commission is working with the Government's, with politicians and

:20:50.:20:54.

public have authorities, two judges human rights impact assessments so

:20:54.:20:58.

when these difficult budgetary decisions are made, we do not wait

:20:58.:21:02.

for the court challenges. We try and be more proactive, more

:21:02.:21:05.

positive and ensure that these budgetary decisions are made in a

:21:05.:21:13.

way that respects and does not proportionate let it go -- those

:21:13.:21:21.

most less resilient to dealing with. You're are any significant position

:21:21.:21:31.
:21:31.:21:31.

of the European group of National Human Rights institutions, this is

:21:31.:21:35.

the first European Union held posts in Britain, what is this fair

:21:35.:21:38.

impression of how Scotland is seen by human rights Practitioners in

:21:38.:21:44.

Europe as compared with the UK as a whole? It is clear or tan so that

:21:44.:21:49.

as to how the UK is can raise the first of all and then I will say

:21:49.:21:57.

some things about Scotland. I had a meeting a couple of weeks ago with

:21:57.:22:00.

the Human Rights Commissioner for the Council of Europe. He is coming

:22:00.:22:06.

to the UK next week and my understanding is that he will be

:22:06.:22:12.

urging the UK Government not to retreat from its obligations under

:22:12.:22:16.

the European Convention of Human Rights. Not to repeal the Human

:22:16.:22:21.

Rights Act and substitute for it a weaker UK Bill of Rights. Because

:22:22.:22:25.

not only would that undermined the rights of those in the United

:22:25.:22:29.

Kingdom, but we can the European system of protection. So those in

:22:29.:22:33.

Russia and Turkey would find their governments would be warmly

:22:33.:22:37.

disposed to the UK's current proposal as chairman of the Council

:22:37.:22:47.
:22:47.:22:48.

of Europe to have an opt-out from what exists. You have been advising

:22:48.:22:54.

on a council of this. Do you think Scotland will say no? My senses

:22:54.:22:58.

that is what will happen. It is unlikely Scottish Parliament would

:22:58.:23:04.

agree to repeal of the Human Rights Act and a substitution of a weaker

:23:04.:23:11.

UK Bill of Human Rights. I think we can do better and we could develop

:23:11.:23:18.

an action plan of her own. Alan Millar, thank you very much for

:23:18.:23:22.

that. Joining me, the Economist and

:23:22.:23:28.

columnist for the Scotsman, George Kerevan. And back with us again,

:23:28.:23:33.

the historian and author Tom Devine. George, let's look at Europe. What

:23:33.:23:38.

you think? I think we spent the last two days in Europe looking at

:23:38.:23:43.

the long end of the telescope. On Friday, did they get the euro

:23:43.:23:48.

crisis salt? No they didn't. Nothing was decided on Friday. So I

:23:48.:23:56.

predict things will be quite over Christmas. Come the New Year,

:23:56.:24:00.

France's credit rating will be downgraded. We will have another

:24:00.:24:04.

crisis. The reason why the Germans were so annoyed with David Cameron

:24:04.:24:10.

is because he did not get the sound barrier. Germany wanted their

:24:10.:24:14.

crisis away. They needed the sure of that and Cameron said no to that

:24:14.:24:17.

because he was on a different trajectory and so they have fallen

:24:17.:24:22.

out. The real issue is the economy and the European economy and the

:24:22.:24:32.
:24:32.:24:32.

euro. What you think this means for the independence debate with an

:24:32.:24:38.

Scotland if you can now say, look there is a pro-European culture in

:24:38.:24:43.

Sense and drive and Scotland and there is an England. I think

:24:43.:24:52.

England is moving in the opposite direction. This is not a criticism.

:24:52.:24:56.

English culture has always been against the European cultural as.

:24:56.:25:01.

We are part of Europe, we have to trade in Europe. We have to build

:25:01.:25:05.

relationships. I think their current crisis means MPs will have

:25:05.:25:11.

to think about what our European stances. It would be foolhardy of

:25:11.:25:18.

Scotland to move out of the EU. you maintain your own currency?

:25:18.:25:25.

euro is off the agenda. It is such damaged goods. The SNP position is

:25:25.:25:29.

it will retain sterling. It has been done before. When island came

:25:29.:25:39.
:25:39.:25:44.

out of the UK, --... What will happen in Scotland if Scotland kept

:25:44.:25:50.

that Stirling wing, we would have Scottish pounds. Probably what

:25:51.:25:54.

would happen is that there would be a tendency for our currency will

:25:55.:25:59.

rise away from the link with the pound. The Scottish Government

:25:59.:26:04.

would pick up vast amounts of foreign currency. It is do-able.

:26:04.:26:09.

But you could maintain your own currency and not going to the EU is

:26:09.:26:19.

well? We have to remember the Norwegian is not the EU formally it

:26:19.:26:29.
:26:29.:26:32.

has to pay into it. Tom, the big picture. There seems to be, from

:26:32.:26:36.

everyone we have spoken to today, this perception that Scotland is

:26:36.:26:42.

more pro-European and has always been more pro-European than England.

:26:42.:26:49.

Certainly the political picture seems to be if backbench Tories get

:26:49.:26:53.

their way this will cause more problems. What's relationship has

:26:53.:27:03.
:27:03.:27:04.

Scotland had? It has been intimate from bed 12 century onwards. The

:27:04.:27:09.

great access of Scottish emigration bent towards Europe from the 12th

:27:09.:27:19.
:27:19.:27:22.

and 13th century. Scotland has been impacted on by Europe at all levels.

:27:22.:27:28.

We talk about the Great Scottish Enlightenment. That is infused with

:27:28.:27:34.

the European intellectual concepts. The Scottish universities, the

:27:34.:27:38.

ancient universities are built upon European foundations. If you take

:27:38.:27:43.

the thing down to the present day, obviously Scotland then became very

:27:43.:27:48.

much immersed in his British Empire. So you could say, like England, it

:27:48.:27:54.

has been more a land to assist in the last 200 years. My own hope is

:27:54.:27:58.

that Scotland returns to his ancient heritage because that is

:27:58.:28:04.

what the future lies. Eliza been its European connections. Thank God

:28:05.:28:09.

for those who hope for that. There is not any evidence at all and

:28:09.:28:14.

modern Scotland of that brand of embittered euroscepticism which

:28:14.:28:19.

exists, not across the whole of England as George has implied, but

:28:19.:28:23.

surly in some of the Home Counties and more particularly in the

:28:23.:28:26.

Conservative Party. So any Scottish Government the wants to move

:28:26.:28:30.

forward in Europe, I think they will have a fairly Pharaoh of

:28:30.:28:37.

global wind unless -- favourable wind and less of the complexities.

:28:37.:28:47.
:28:47.:28:48.

I never thought I would feel sorry for David Cameron. Briefly, Nick

:28:48.:28:57.

Clegg said today, if we do not have influence in Europe. Nick Clegg

:28:57.:29:01.

says two things were never you speak to him. We are part of Europe

:29:01.:29:06.

we have to be part of Europe. It is how you build bridges to it. Thank

:29:06.:29:12.

you all very much indeed. We are out of time now. I am glad I

:29:12.:29:17.

did not have to interrupt Professor Tom Devine. That is all from us

:29:17.:29:21.

this week. We will be back at the same time next week when we will

:29:21.:29:23.

have the first interview with the new Scottish Labour leader and a

:29:23.:29:28.

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