23/10/2011 The Politics Show Wales

Later in the programme: It was meant to be a retail park,

but millions of pounds of taxpayers' money was spent on what

has turned into a lorry park on Anglesey - we have the details.

And harsh words from a Labour peer on the priorities of the Welsh

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1791 seconds

First, a flagship development on the outskirts of Holyhead has cost

the taxpayer millions of pounds more than originally planned. The

Parc Cybi site on Anglesey was supposed to be a business and

retail park but is now a lorry park. Part of the project included an

archaeological dig costing several million pounds. The business

minister Edwina Hart has announced the site will now be sold. John

Stephenson has the story. You can almost feel the hand of

history reaching out. It is now known as Parc Cybi on the outskirts

of Holyhead. Before the Roman work began, dozens of archaeologists

work here. -- development work. As is normal, the site has now been

covered up. But what they found here at Parc Cybi was an

international -- of international significance. You have so much

going on in this one site. It is not an individual site. In the past

archaeologists focused on one monument but he'll have an entire

landscape stretching thousands of years so it is significant -- here

you have a landscape. It is not an everyday occurrence to find this

kind of archaeology condensed in one reasonably small area and the

information it gives you about the continuity of people, one community

living in a site for several 1000 years is significant discovery.

Parc Cybi was intended to be a major mixed-use site for north-west

Wales, creating up to 1300 jobs. Well, the idea was to create

businesses to help regenerate Holyhead and the Isle of Anglesey.

The purpose hasn't changed and that but there will be interest being

shown, but like everything else it is about the economic climate so it

is taking time to get off the ground. All sorts of schemes were

aired and there was even talk of trying to persuade the Home Office

to site a new prison, but like the archaeology they have discovered,

all that is now history. By spending millions to develop the

site the Welsh Government had hoped to create jobs. This -- the final

scheme, though, is nothing like that originally planned. One bone

of contention is the millions spent on the archaeology. What have they

been doing? I know it is a slow process and they have to move stone

by stone, step-by-step, but �4 million? I am sorry, I cannot get

my head around that or justify that to people and I will not try. It is

a no-brainer for me. That argument, say the critics, is totally

disingenuous. I think what has happened in Parc Cybi, it is

devious in a way, the archaeology has almost been made a scapegoat

for the fact that the park has not developed the way they intended.

You find a lot of these developments parks, they have ideas

which are not necessarily fulfilled afterwards. So I think, the

question is, the overall budget of that Park, it is nothing to do with

the archaeology, the reason it subsequently has not been used.

total cost for developing Parc Cybi was going to be in the region of

�11 million, but the Welsh Government have now revealed to the

politics show that work on the Parc Cybi site would have cost the

taxpayer �21 million. Last week, at the Business Mr Edwina Hart finally

gave the green light to the sale of Parc Cybi to an investment company.

-- Business Minister. They plan to develop a transport hub and lorry

park which, they say, could create 70 jobs and boost the Ireland's

economy -- the island's economy. Earlier this month the Supreme

Court was said that laws passed by the Assembly Government have the

same legal weight as laws passed by the UK Parliament. We discuss the

issue with the Consul General Theodore Huckle.

I met the consul-general at his office at the Wales HQ at Cathays

Park. The Supreme Court judgment followed a challenge by insurance

companies against a law passed by the Scottish parliament. The First

Minister Carwyn Jones intervened to support the Scottish position

because he believed the constitutional principle applies

here as much as it does in Scotland. This is a very detailed judgment,

but essentially, as I understand it, it is about companies not being

able to get around decisions made by democratically elected

politicians, whether they be in Edinburgh or in Cardiff, using the

judicial system. Absolutely. And it is a result which, on behalf of the

Welsh Government and I hope the people of Wales, we are absolutely

delighted. It is that line, isn't it, between the judiciary and

democratic processes that we are dealing with here. Absolutely.

is putting the Assembly in Wales and the parliament in Scotland at

the same level as the parliament, the UK Parliament. Yes. We have to

remember that just as with the Scottish parliament, the National

Assembly for Wales axe under the powers given to it by the

government of Wales Act. -- acts. Within that acts there are certain

procedures for reviewing what Wales does by way of legislation and

ensuring that that is within what we lawyer's core competence. For

example, if provisions were to breach the convention of human

rights or European law, they would automatically be outside the

competence, the legislative competence of the National Assembly

for Wales in this case and the same applies for the Scottish parliament.

On that basis, the legislation would be capable of being referred

to the Supreme Court and struck down. That is all taking place

within the structure of the Act, and everybody understands that and

we are quite happy with that ability of the Supreme Court to

review what the Assembly's legislative assemblies do. It is a

different matter when we consider judicial review, a common law

remedy which everyone can bring if they have appropriate standing on

an issue, to challenge an action taken by a minister, say, or an act

of secondary legislation, to say that it is, in this case,

irrational, for example. We were very strongly of the view that that

remedy, that challenge, should not be available in relation to primary

legislation or legislation of a primary nature passed by, in this

case, people elected by the people of Wales. As was said in a legal

judgment, you cannot have organisations, rather than working

through the democratic process, using the law to subvert

democratically taken decisions on legislation. Absolutely. The

doctrine of separation pub -- doctrine of separation of powers

provides that there are three elements of government, the rule of

law, if you like, that is, the legislature, the executive and

judiciary. The judiciary, the courts, will refer to the power of

the legislature, if you like, the primary law-making body, which is

directly elected by the electorate, and will only interfere when it has

the power to do so, and it is always accepted that it does not

ordinarily have the power to intervene. So it does not second-

guess what the people's representatives have provided

should be the law. Do you foresee any interesting battles ahead that

are likely to be battles... Are you expecting fun and games over that?

A I look forward to issues of that type which will arise, because it

is a very exciting time to be in Wales generally and a lawyer in

Wales in particular. It is a very exciting time to be in this post in

Wales, for all the aforesaid reasons. I cannot predict when the

issues will arise, really, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are

quite a lot of issues which arise over the coming years, because if

the First Minister... The First Minister is on record as saying

that this legal jurisdiction of England and Wales is the only one

in the world where there are two legislative bodies which can pass

measures, acts of equal status to affect the lives of the people of

Wales. Part of that overall jurisdiction. Therefore it seems to

be inevitable that there will be situations where if not a clash,

there will certainly be rubbing up against each other of those two

spheres of operation, so when that happens, it has to be worked out in

some way, and there may be challenges to be considered. There

maybe advice to be given, but it is not for me to predict when and

where. Is there a possibility or even a likelihood of a separate

legal system for Wales in the not- too-distant future? People use that

expression to mean a very different things. It means different things

to have raised using it. You will know that the First Minister

announced a week or so ago that there will be a debate about that

issue, because people are talking about it, and there will be a Green

Paper, probably the first one to be issued by the government in Wales

since the election and since the referendum, and I look forward to

that debate as well. It is obviously one eye as a lawyer and

interested in generally, but specifically because I am in this

role now. That was the Consul General

Theodore Huckle. On Radio Wales at 1pm you can hear

the annual Patrick Hannan Lecture. The first lecture in memory of the

distinguished broadcaster is being given by former Labour MP Baroness

Eluned Morgan. The topic is Labour and devolution. She pulls no

punches as she revealed to our political Editor Betsan Powys.

Let's start with redefining the relationship with the private

sector. I think there has been suspicion in the past from many

members of the Labour Party in terms of how we relate to business,

because our traditional relationship, you must remember,

the history is one of bosses against the workers, and that has

been the historic background to this. We do need to move on, and I

think what happened was that that was understood when Tony Blair came

into power in the UK. Labour in Wales however, didn't quite move in

the same direction. They went too far, further than the rest of the

UK with the prawn cocktail offensive, but in Wales we have to

redefine our relationship particularly at this time, because

they is no other choice if we want to create jobs in Wales. Do you

think that suspicion is still tangible, can you still potter --

spotted in the Welsh Labour movement and in government? It is

definitely still there and we need to be careful in terms of what kind

of industries we deal with, what kind of businesses, but the danger

is that we have had suspicion against all of them because we have

not known how to distinguish. I think we should be using the trade

unions to help us identify who the good businesses are and to help to

nurture and develop those industries, because that is how you

get job creation in Wales, and job creation is absolutely crucial at

this point in time. You made the point that you thought there ought

to be greater care in not asking for too much devolution if that

would harm prospects of job creation. Where is that barb aimed,

at civil servants, politicians all wear? It is about resources,

expertise and really focusing on what will improve the material

well-being of the people of Wales. If it is simply about ideology,

about, let's have more power for the sake of it, I think it is the

wrong way to go. If it will help job creation, then of course do it,

but here is a real question over whether there is a capacity, and

the expertise in particular, at this time, when there is a real

contraction in the Civil Service, to be able to deliver that.

talk also about the need to make Wales an attractive place for

business. That must be key. Labour has had a long time to do that. Are

you just saying it hasn't got there yet? It has failed so far? When you

look at the evidence, the investment from people outside

Wales coming in to Wales has dropped, so there is obviously a

problem that we have to address. The question is, how do we

prioritise? Labour is doing great stuff, I think, but the question

now I think is about prioritising, making sure the jobs agenda is

absolutely the top the agenda. that not what it has been doing? It

says it has been doing that for many years. Well, I think if we

look at what has been discussed and what is discussed in the Assembly,

you can see that it is not a Labour problem. I think all the other

parties are equally guilty. We have been distracted by things we

shouldn't be having. Like what? think there are issues we should be

looking at. We spent a lot of time this week discussing smacking

children. Of course it is an important issue, but at a time of

crisis, when actually there is a question about whether that will

follow through, I think it is about really spending time at making

relationships, and really caught in the private sector at to make the

investments in Wales. That is not being done to the extent it should

be done. I think all the Assembly members, not just Labour members

and ministers, could get involved in this. Every single Assembly

member could be developing relationships with businesses in

their communities. And to those who might say after this, Eluned Morgan

spent a couple of years in the private sector, look what has

happened to her, what would you say? I went to the private sector

deliberately because I realised there weren't enough people within

the Labour movement who had an understanding. I think there is a

real suspicion by many people in the party, and because of that,

there has been a fear of engagement, because we don't understand the

language business speaks. Having seen it, listen, it is not all

fantastic in the private sector, let me tell you, but what is

interesting is that it is not that intimidating either. I don't think

this is rocket science. I think it is simply about gaining the

confidence within the administration to say, we are up

for this and we will engage. It is comforting message was some of the

movement, isn't it? -- for some of the movement. I don't think it is

difficult. I think at this time of crisis, people need to understand

that if they are serious about job creation, job creation will not

come from the public sector, so there is only briefly a couple of

other choices, and the private sector is central to that. Eluned

Morgan, thank you. As we heard earlier on the politics

show, the Commons will vote tomorrow on whether to have a

referendum on EU membership. The coalition government and the Labour

leadership are urging their MPs to oppose such a move. We have the

Conservative MP for Abba Conwy who backs the referendum joining us

from Bangor. Good afternoon. Why us a referendum such an important

issue? Can I clarify the position first of

all, I am backing an amendment which has signed up to which asks

the government to produce a White Paper and on the basis of the White

Paper explain what the negotiation position the government will take

would be, then we would put that issue to a referendum. I do think

the motion put forward in front of the House on Monday is

fundamentally flawed in two ways, firstly it is a three option

referendum which I think is dangerous, and secondly, one of the

options is renegotiation but it does not explain what type of

renegotiation. I think it would be wrong to was the people of this

country to vote on a referendum were renegotiation is an option but

there is no explanation whatsoever about what renegotiation would mean.

One of your party's most prominent Euro-sceptics, William Hague, says

this is not a time for a referendum because of the economic crisis. The

Labour leader Ed Miliband says that people who were asking the UK to

leave the EU are barking mad. Are you barking mad? I have never asked

to leave the EU. I have always said it strongly we should renegotiate a

position with the EU and that is the amendment we have put forward,

that is what it aims to do. I understand what -- white William

Hague is saying what he is saying because the euro zone crisis is

significant and there is a real need to do with it if economic

growth is to be delivered in the UK context. I do think the motion is

probably wrongly timed and certainly very badly drafted, but

ultimately, I have been asked to vote on an alternative vote

referendum which I supported and a referendum on the powers of the

Welsh Assembly. I want to stay with the EU and renegotiate with the EU,

but it is no bad thing that issues which are important to the general

public are debated in Parliament. What would you say to those

claiming that this once again shows that the Conservative Party is

divided on Europe? -- to those same this once again shows. This is a

division between the pragmatic Euro-sceptic parliamentary party

and those who are desperate to get the issue resolved immediately. The

Conservative parliamentary party is fundamentally a Euro-sceptic but

there is undoubtedly a division between the pragmatists, who feel

we need to discuss what areas we want to renegotiate upon, and those

who feel we should move immediately to a referendum. Unfortunately,

even though I can see that, I cannot see any merit in a

referendum proposal with three options. That is why a I hope our

amendment, the George used as a moment, will be selected. George

Eustace has also said that this has been badly handled by the

government. Would you can care with that? I think that is a difficult

question, because ultimately they are two ways we could deal with

this as government. The government could have said this was a

backbones is as much an and the government will not be bound --

back bench business motion. Or they could have ignored it. I am proud

that his coalition government has decided that this issue is

fundamentally important and that they use the abuse of -- the views

of Parliament have to be respected. The government has taken it

seriously. Does that mean we have created contention within the

party? Undoubtedly. You have touched on this already, as a final

question, the government is not bound by the result of the moped --

vote tomorrow, but what is the point? I disagree. You are

technically correct that the government is not bound by the vote

but it would be very difficult to explain to the British people that

if the House of Commons voted in favour of this motion, the

government ignored it -- that would be difficult to explain. We need a

robust argument, but my own view is that the George used this amendment