23/10/2011 The Politics Show West Midlands

In the Midlands: the lorry drivers with loads on their minds.

The yew is planning height restrictions on HTVs. And what is

the connection between a Worcestershire chip shop, a German

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1775 seconds

hot-dog seller and a European Court Hello from the Midlands. As our MPs

prepare for the crucial vote on the European referendum, we also have

Europe on our minds. We will have the answer do the link between the

German hot-dog seller and a Worcestershire fish and chip shop.

Midlands road hauliers are in a tailspin over plans to restrict the

height of many of their HGVs the commission says it would make it

easier to move goods around Europe if lorries were no taller than four

metres. To help us get the measure of this, here with me today,

Malcolm Harbour, one of our Conservative MEPs for the West

Midlands. Ms Reynolds, the Labour MP for Wolverhampton North East and

newly-appointed as the shadow Europe Minister, and might mattress

-- Mike Nattrass, UKIP's MEP for the West Midlands.

Our transport correspondent has been talking to truckers.

Love them or hate them, HGVs are a common sight. Even with greater use

of the railways, the majority of the things we make or buy still go

by road. Concerns about the impact on the environment means that

haulage firms up sympathising with bigger lorries, fewer journeys and

less pollution. -- soubrette sizing. Some fans like Birmingham-based

Palletline claim that the EU proposals could see the brakes

being applied when it comes to going green. It is bureaucracy gone

mad. Clearly someone has not thought this through. They are not

aware of the problems back European hauliers face and particularly

British hauliers face. The EU is considering proposals to restrict

the height of lorry trailers to four metres like this one. The

reason according to officials is that it will make it easier to move

goods around or 27 EU countries. -- or 27. Some countries have low

bridges on major routes. Rather than rebuild them, the EU appears

to want to change the height of lorries, regardless of where they

operate. For the UK, that is a big problem was that according to

government figures, 80% of the lorry fleet is over four metres.

What it would mean for Palletline as an organisation and other

British hauliers is that potentially they would have to run

more vehicles, by more vehicles, employ more drivers and there would

be twice the number of vehicles on the road. This is what he is

talking about. The trailer being unloaded is well over four metres

and the goods are being transferred to a trailer that meets the EU's

proposals. As you can see, it does not fit so you need a second lorry.

Other companies have -- are just as concerned. This is the John Lewis

Warehouse in Redditch. Online orders are dispatched from here all

over the UK. Much of its fleet consists of double-decker lorries.

Here at least there is some good news. The euro appears to have done

a last-minute U-turn meaning that regardless of height, they can

still run. They form a major part of our environmental strategy. They

reduce our carbon dioxide by 25%. They are Keith in that ensuring our

environmental impact of our transport fleet is minimised --

they are key in ensuring. Under the current proposals, this 4.9 double-

deck trailer would be allowed on the roads. But this 4.6 metre

single deck trailer would not. Nat Copsey is an expert on all

things Europe and despite the confusion, he maintains that it

makes sense to harmonise. Harmonisation is what allows the

single market to function proper to -- properly. The single market is

our largest trading partner. We have to have the same rules and

regulations in place across the 27 EU member states otherwise it will

not work. The government is not impressed. A statement from the

Department of Transport says, we share the concerns of the UK

haulage industry about the European Commission's proposals. It adds

that it will press the Commission to maintain the existing right of

member states to set the permitted height of lorries.

Already, several haulage firms have gone out of business because of the

recession. There is our best that any new EU rules could see even

more going the same way -- there is now the rest.

Confused? Me too. I can see that Mike Nattrass is itching to get on

it. I will come first to the two of you who want Britain to stay in the

European Union forever, as far as we can see. Isn't this exactly the

sort of issue that makes Europe such a hard sell? It does look like

it is making regulation a fetish. Part of the problem is that your

report, I'm afraid, is very misleading. First of all, we are

aware of the problem. I have been working on it for months. The

commission is very much aware of the problems. What is the problem?

First of all, what your report did not say is that 22 out of 27

countries already do not allow trucks of more than four metres to

go on their roads. That is there now. That will continue. If the

issue is that member states, including Britain, can allow larger

trucks to operate. We have already had the double Decker trailers

which are significantly higher and there is no question but a dark and

I would be astonished if the commission also did not make a

concession for the normal trailers. They are also very good green

reasons. If you look on the roads, streamlined the trailers are saving

CO2. I think you have not actually reported the facts. Why is it that

so many including some in your constituency are so anxious about

it? First day, let me say, I am a pro European, I believe in the

benefits of our membership of the European Union and I believe in the

benefits of the biggest single market in the world. His commission

proposals are not to get final. Because we have a strong voice in

Europe, we are able to influence these. That is very important. I do

not think that the commission should, when it comes to the

European Parliament and the Council of Ministers, I do not think they

should decide to restrict the height of our hauliers. I think

that will be what happens in the end. Mike Nattrass. 80% of the

trailer fleet would be out of order on this regulation if imposed. A I

think it should be the result of our government and what they need

to tell us and our roads are capable of taking traffic and very

little to do with Europe. If these traders have to go into Europe,

obviously they have to abide by the rules of any of the individual

countries. But we should not be told to restrict the height of our

vehicles because it is a green issues. You are saying the result

would be more lorries, each of them a bit smaller and therefore more

traffic was sacked more Denny's, lorries. -- more journeys. The

distinction between using the trucks on the road and the

technical regulations... If you make trailers, all the braking

systems and construction is common so you can make a 40 ft trailer

anywhere in Europe and get it approved locally and it can run

anywhere. That is an important part of the single market if you are

manufacturer in trailers. Also, other countries have the same

issues as we do. In Sweden, they run bigger trucks because they have

longer open highways. This is perfectly normal and there is no

reason at all why we cannot get the permission to set it up and frankly

we have been working on it for a long time. It does seem to be a

more prescription for more lorries, more congestion. I think we can win

the argument on this one. It is not clear that these are the final

Commission proposals. I feel it is a bit dramatic to say that these

are already the proposals and these are going to have this kind of

implication when we do not even know what the commission are going

to propose. Nat Copsey says that you should not see the issue in

isolation, it is part of a broader harmonisation to make the single

market work. It is none of their business. They should not be

discussing the height of trailers within the UK. But they have to run

across Europe. Our trailers can change. We do not have to run those

trailers into Europe. The single market, we are looking to make

things easier for manufacturers and also for exporters. But that does

not mean to say that we have to apply every single role within our

own roads. We have in some cases different speed limits, for example.

The government is putting up speed limits on motorways where different

speed limits... We have different road signs, we have different

alcohol limits, different driving licence regulations. This is the

same thing. If Labour from a government, we do not have you have

moved on to something less double- ended did tell than this? I do not.

There is an important issue. In some cases it, it is very important

to have an effective single market and that they are roars across the

27 member states. In other cases, it is not important for that to

happen and it is no better handled at a member state level. This is a

case in point. I do not think that this will be hopefully the

commission's final proposals. I am worried that we are worrying about

this too early. You can choose any product that you like. You can

choose manhole covers and you can find that the French hold -- friend

specification is being used of manhole covers which is putting

business that in why is it that every time I want to speak, Malcolm

Harbour is coming in. I never speak when you are speaking. There is

plenty of mileage left in this but at this point, we have to go. Thank

you. At last, the answer to the puzzle linking a Worcestershire

fish and chip shop with a German hot-dog seller who took a test case

to the European Court of Justice. The result was that VAT had to be

cut on hot takeaway food throughout the land of the Frankfurter and the

hamburger. Now the Worcestershire chip-shop is hoping to emulate his

German counterpart because VAT was after all originally introduced as

a European harmonisation tax. Ben Sidwell reports now from Hannover

and Hagley. Fish and chips, they are about as British as you can get.

Our place -- Our Plaice is one of the best trip and fish shops in the

country. Now they have their sights set on Europe. Cod and chips please.

There are over 10,000 fish and chip shops in the UK but you may not be

aware that every what time you buy it food from one you are paying VAT

on it. That could all be about to change banks do a sausage seller

He in at Hannover, like the rest of Germany, the sausage is big

business. It is one of the most popular takeaway foods. So when one

sausage seller decided to challenge the government over tax laws, it

became very big news. The sausage seller who goes by the name of

Manfred Bog claimed that he supplied simple easily prepared

food. And unlike a restaurant, did not offer any service. Therefore he

should not pay VAT, he said. On Mars 10th this year, the European

Court of Justice found in favour of Manfred Bog and three other similar

cases. It was a ruling that could Here in England, our sausages are

much bigger. But this is not a row about size. It is all about money.

Wrong altogether. No food should have VAT on it. All countries

should be treated the same way. really is unfair. We want a level

playing field for our members. May, Gregg Howard was elected as

President of National Federation of Fish Friers, representing every

fish and chip shop in the country. They have now appointed a by --

advisers to fight to the VAT battle. It is a matter for the courts.

There are some complex legal arguments in play here and it is

for the courts to decide. I think it is better than a 5050 chance

that some of these principles and indeed other principles should

apply to the UK zero rate. As we are all part of the European Union,

does it follow that rules in place in Germany should be applied it to

the UK? The tax man here does not think so. Her Majesty's Revenue and

Customs say, the European Court of Justice judgment has no

implications for the United Kingdom. It should be across the board. If

it is good enough for Hannover, it is good enough of Hagley. It should

be exactly the same across Europe. We are all Europeans. If the fish

and chip shop industry win their case, other takeaways and could

soon follow. Whether that means cheaper food for us, that remains

to be seen. That is one that sausage and chips and one of fish

and chips. Do you want to VAT on those?

That really is a question, isn't it! Ben Sidwell has found his true

calling on life. Mike Nattrass, a clear example where most people

would see tax harmonisation as a good thing. In Yorkshire, the best

fish and chips you can buy, in Whitby. UKIP are supporting tax

harmonisation? Certainly not. VAT is a European tax. We regret I have

to speak about harmonisation in Parliament. There is a prospect of

harmonisation of VAT across Europe. That is heavily guarded against by

a number of member states including the UK. We believe that we should

have control of our own taxation. I strongly believe that we should do

that. But if you try to reduce VAT, the European Commission get excited

because they are going to cut. So, if for example the Labour

government want to zero rate fuel, gas or electricity, they cannot.

Malcolm Harbour, you were shaking your head through much of that.

What is your concern? First of all, VAT is a comment type of taxation

that we have agreed to. Member states, have different rates.

have a zero rate and Germany has a 5%. The show hearers -- Series... I

think it is most unlikely that it will change in Germany. That is

certainly the impression they have in Germany. I do not think so. They

must have read the judgment. It came up from the lower courts

because Manfred Bog said in a VAT plane which said that this is food

and where people eat at my school, I charge VAT, which is something

that goes on with cold food here. It has been referred back to the

court to make a judgment. The judgment does not actually support

his case. The whole issue is what is food and what is a service. If

you look in the UK rules on VAT, they are very clear. If you heard

hot food, heating is delivering a service. Before week loom on to the

other issues, what do you think Emma Reynolds? I can see that the

fish fryers are looking at the German hot dog sellers and thinking,

if they have managed to win it, if they do managed to win it, is in

not quite similar, serving a sausage in a square in Germany and

providing fish and chips in a chip shop in Hagley? This is much more

of a product than a service. I can see where they are coming from. We

do not have total harmonisation of VAT. We have got to bear that in

mind. Quick word about the referendum vote which is looming.

Mike Nattrass, yew and the Independent MEP are the driving

forces between the British and. delivered it to Number 10 a month

ago and it is now going to be debated. We got 14 MPs saying at

that time that they would speak to it when it got behind the chair.

Now it has caused a lot of problems. Reopening all of the traditional

divisions within the Tory party. The European nightmares under way

again. I do not think that is true at all. David Cameron is right to

say that why should we have a referendum now? They are big issues

to be sorted out and there are three questions on the ballot paper,

including the idea of having a change relationship based on trade

and corporations. Nobody knows what that means. I do not believe we

should go forward without a referendum without a policy behind

it. If it is a diversion. We have big problems to sort out now and

big opportunities within the European market to help growth and

recovery and we should be focusing on that. And a Reynolds, to pursue

at the German theatre -- theme. I am sure you feel an element of

schadenfreude. You have rebels on Labour's benches as well. You are

not exactly united on this one either. The vast majority of our

parliamentary party Labour MPs will vote against the question of a

referendum tomorrow. The truth is that David Cameron, when he was in

opposition, he should have been saying what he is now saying in

government that our membership of the European Union is in our

national interest. If he had not been quite so opportunistic,

calling his MEPs out of the centre- right grouping in the European

Parliament, perhaps he would not be facing he is tomorrow. I agree.

agree says Mike Nattrass. We will end there. We are going to have to

leave it. A fascinating moment in politics. Thank you all very much

for being with us. That is about it from us here in