10/07/2014 The View

Hello and welcome to the The View. Tonight: A signed pledge calling

for peaceful protests. But what does the pan-unionist

graduated response mean for the political process here?

Westminster and Europe, the denial of cultural expression resulting

from republican violence and threats of violence will have a consequence

determining how our members at each of these levels of government will

participate. for the political process here?

As Peter Robinson refuses to be drawn on whether or not the

Institutions are under threat, we ask how solid evolution is. The end

of term and the awards. Our experts have been chewing the fat over how

local politicians have performed. Joining us, two of the judges,

Newton Emerson and Cathy Gormley-Heenan. You can follow the

debate on Twitter as it happens. Good evening. Another 12th of July

and another crisis over a parade. The First Minister joined fellow

unionist leaders at an Orange Hall this morning where they senior

members of the Orange Order signed a pledge calling for peaceful protests

in their continuing challenge to the ruling on Saturday afternoon's

Ardoyne parade. They called for a commission of inquiry. The order

revealed its plan to stop parades for six minutes as a protest. The

grand secretary Drew Nelson is with me. Thank you for joining us. The

fact the parade cannot happen as you would like it to on Saturday is

clearly an issue for the Orangemen involved and the order itself. Why

bring the rest of us into it? There is a point of principle here which

is important for the institution. We think that since the party

processions that was passed and the Parades Commission came into view,

it has continually tighten the screw on the orders and what we do which

is parading. It is a six minute parade. What is reasonable about

making such a fuss over such a short issue? That is the question I would

put to the nationalist and republican groups opposing the

parade. What is the big difficulty about us coming down that road for

six minutes? There is a basic question of respect here. Tolerance.

Why is it that the nationalist community and the republican

community feel they cannot tolerate us coming peacefully down a road for

six minutes? There is also a respect and tolerance issue the other way

around. Why can't you be more tolerant of the nationalist

residents who have a problem with it? They are not happy about it in

the afternoon. Why can't you compromise? What is the difference

between the morning parade and afternoon parade? If they can

tolerate us in the morning, what is the difference in the afternoon rush

at is that not a compromise? Everyone else can get on with their

lives -- what is the difference in the afternoon? The real compromise

would be for those opposed to the parades to be able to share this

space with us. We are only asking for six minutes. I think it should

be shared more evenly. I honestly cannot understand what their

difficulty is with a six minute parade down a road and back up a

road in the evening. They do have a problem with it, whether you like it

or not, whether you can understand it or not. They have that problem.

How do you persuade them that the Orange Order is not something for

them to be fearful of or antagonistic towards when all you

keep saying is they need to fold, and you need to be allowed do what

you want? I do not see it to be a question of them folding. In many

parts of the province, there is a greater tolerance from the

nationalist unity. I was at an opening of an Orange Hall on Tuesday

night. Local Roman Catholic priest wrote a letter of congratulations to

the members of the hall. It was read out and got a big round of

applause. That was there, we are talking about Ardoyne. The problem

is, there has been a contentious parade in that part of Belfast a

long period of time. That is why our members and the wider community have

been engaging in talks with the nationalist community for many

months. That is not just about North Belfast. We have other issues across

the province. In Drumcree we were told for many years, no talk, no

walk. When we offered to talk, the Nationalists there opposed to us are

fusing to talk and they are still rewarded whilst we were penalised

for not talking a few years ago -- are refusing to talk. You have asked

the government to consider an inquiry. The Secretary of State has

not ruled it out. The Parades Commission is the lawfully

constituted independent body to rule on these issues whether you like it

or not. Absolutely. We accept that. We want the law changed. Our opinion

is it is a bad law. The public processions act is weighted against

those who in gauge in parades. It is weighted against the Protestant

community because it regulates parades, not other large-scale

events that take place in the public space. Parades are the cultural

expression, 90%, of the Protestant community. That is why we feel this

is a bad law. We understand it was brought in in the late 90s at a time

when cease-fires were coming around. We believe it was a price that was

paid for a cease-fire. The price that was paid, it was part of the

price paid. It is now having a bad effect on the democratic system. It

is undermining democracy. If the Parades Commission was producing

determination July, would use to be calling for it to be replaced? A

determination by its nature is something that restricts parades.

What we do is peaceful and lawful. You are not answering my question.

If the Parades Commission was calling for determinations you

liked, would you be calling for it to be replaced? Yes. The legislation

is unfair and one-sided and it should be replaced. It is a model,

in my opinion, that is faulty. I do not often agree with the leader of

the Alliance party. He indicated last week he thought the model

brought out around the same time for the administration in Stormont for

the political setup is faulty and needs to be repaired. This

legislation is equally faulty. Finally, what if we see violence on

Saturday night like last year's violence were Loyalist and some

Orangemen came onto the streets and attacked the police? How can you be

sure it will not happen again this year? I cannot be sure, but what I

can assure you is that the Orange institution has put a massive effort

into calming the situation in Northern Ireland, into organising

alternative protests across the country that will be controlled by

the institution and which will be absolutely peaceful and these

protest parades will have a start and finish time. You don't think it

is a risky strategy? It is less risky than doing nothing. We are

trying to manage the situation. If we did nothing, it would create a

more volatile situation and increase the risk of violence and we are

doing everything in our power to stop that. We need to leave it

there, thank you, Drew Nelson. In the game of political chicken now

being played out between Unionists and the Secretary of State over the

future of the Parades Commission, it is not yet clear who is more

determined to hold the line. The First Minister said today there

will be consequences for participation at council, assembly,

Westminster and European levels. So, is this just about a parade?

Or is it part of a wider power struggle

at an already shaky Stormont? Martina Purdy has been taking

a look. Leek the old Stormont has withered

but found new life and power-sharing. -- the old Stormont.

But for how long? It is being tested.

This piece garden was supposed to symbolise reconciliation post

agreement. For some time now, cracks have been in power-sharing and the

relationship. There are problems over flags, parading, the past,

welfare policy and money. Just a few months ago, the First Minister

threatened to quit over revelations about Republicans on the run being

given comfort letters. Today he suggested the assembly and other

elected bodies would be part of a protest over the parades dispute in

Ardoyne. The parties are agreed that at every level, council, assembly,

Westminster and Europe, the denial of cultural expression resulting

from republican violence and threats of violence will have a consequence

determining how our members at each of these levels of government will

participate. What it means. Montt has not been revealed, perhaps it

involves creating a few more cracks here and there -- what it means for

Stormont has not been revealed. I would prefer that as the nuclear

option. If you are going to bring down the assembly and all its works

and the executive, all of that, down the assembly and all its works

and the executive, all of we are treading into very dangerous

territory altogether. Stormont cannot be placed in any kind of

jeopardy. I hear talk, very foolhardy and reckless talk, about

bringing Stormont down. Anybody saying that is not a unionist. We

have an opportunity with Stormont. It is not perfect but it is ours.

The roof is being repaired but it could be a metaphor for the system

itself. Like a work of art, it remains unfinished. It is a changing

picture offering perhaps little stability. There is already deep

enquiries going on about successions, who will succeed Peter

Robinson? Do you think he will go in September as rumoured? There is

every likelihood of it. Why would he bother with the creations of

instability? I believe he is trying to create stability and maintaining

a firm stance with the responsible at ease he has. It is possible

graduate response to parading is a carefully design valve to ease

pressures. Come the autumn, no real threat to Stormont at all. Even if

that is true, some think this strategy is not enough to ensure

Stormont's future. The Irish Government need to engage

with Sinn Fein as the nationalist side of the partnership in the

North. When asked if their plan meant pulling the plug on Stormont

neither main unionist party gave either a firm guarantee of

continuing support or made a threat to walk away. Can unionists afford

to pull the plug? Do they have more to lose than nationalists? I think

everybody would lose. Of course, you have to remember, every time that

unionists walk out of the negotiating room, what's left on the

table becomes less and less. Others say Sinn Fein also need Stormont to

work to demonstrate to voters in the Republic they are capable of

governing. If after seven years, I suppose there hasn't been much

achieved by either side at Stormont, it was to collapse, that would

create potential difficulty for them in the South unless they were able

to lay all the blame at the door of Eunicism and say - it was nothing to

do for us. From a unionist perspective it's difficult to see

where collapsing Stormont would get them. The view from Dublin is that

the parties are too self involved to help one another and themselves.

There is a sense Peter Robinson is desperately worried not to move too

far ahead of the most hardline elements in his community. As a

result, he is almost tied to them, that is on that side. On the other

side, Martin McGuinness made tremendous sides to reconcile in the

community and make the process work. Other elements in Sinn Fein are

playing to a tribal agenda. Whatever Eunicism decides to do with

Stormont, it appears to be playing for time. Perhaps realising that any

sudden move risks prolonged periods of no power at all. Martina Purdy

reporting. With me in the studio is Gerry Kelly from Sinn Fein and from

Londonderry we are joined by the DUP's Gregory Campbell. Your party

leader said receipt action of the Parades' Commission would provoke

political consequences, including Stormont and at Westminster, both of

which will affect you, presumably. What does it mean, precisely? A few

days ago people were saying - we need to know what this graduated

response is, can you not outline. It I and others made it clear, before

the 12th things would be more clear. They are now. A graduated response

remains that gradually, step-by-step, these positions will

be unveiled as they are required to be unveiled - Will you stop

attending committees, what can you do? Let us take it a step at a time.

The one thing we don't want to do, Mark. It's a bit odd that you hear

people - it's supposed to be unionists who are supposed to be

threatening the institutions, despite the fact that we're not.

Everybody else that wants to blame unionists for threatening the

institutions seems to be talking about, it we aren't talking about

that. Let us not pre-empt sort of crises a day at a time. A week ago a

bad decision was made by the Parades' Commission. We need to try

to rectify that. We do to do it democratically and lawfully. Now we

have managed that over the course of the last week. Let us see the next

week being peaceful and the week after that. Let us try and get the

issues resolved so that everyone is satisfied and can move forward next

year into a much more satisfactory position in the summer. You said

this Parades' Commission ruling was a reward for violence. Or the threat

of violence. There has been violence on all sides in the past, would you

have are preferred the commission to rule in favour of the return parade

this year as a reward for the loyalist violence of last year? No,

I would prefer that the Parades' Commission, even more preferibly, a

successor body, would say - let's look at this dispassionately. Let us

see is there an offence being caused? Any intent to cause offence?

How long will it take? Is it reasonable or unreasonable for this

parade to pass? In the short time it takes? Take a decision based on

logic. This Parades' Commission hasn't done any of that. That is

what I would prefer. Gerry Kelly, let me ask you something that Drew

Nelson referred to, how come republicans in North Belfast can

tolerate the parade in the morning in the Ardoyne, not the afternoon?

We can go through this again and this nonsense about six minutes is a

nonsense. I have been at these parades for 15 years. There is never

a six minute period in this. Other things need to be taken into

consideration which I mefr never mentioned the sectarianism involved

and the bands involved in this are named after people who were actually

involved in killing Catholics along this route. That the sectarian abuse

that comes from some of the marchers is involved as well. It's not as

simple as that. The Parades' Commission did look at this

dispassionately. They did look at all the things that you and I might

talk about or you, me and Gregory might talk about here, they came to

a decision. A small section of a long parade. One of unhads of

parades and thousands of parades that take part every year. We are

hearing, despite what Gregory says, the First Minister, refused to

answer today and threatened before about the institutions. We are

talking about they will have a graduated approach through councils,

the Assembly, Europe and Westminster. You can't look upon it

as any other thing except that they got a decision against them. I had

to face many decisions which I disagreed with. We said before this

determination was made, that whatever the determination, let's

adhere to it and move on. Is OK. You have consistently called for

dialogue. Does dialogue actually mean demanding consent. Is that what

you want, Orangemen to seek your consent? Dialogue means real

meaningful dialogue. What happened was that there were talks. I was

involved in them, as it happens. The Orange withdrew from those talks in

June. Way before the 12th July. Wouldn't come back in. The residents

group asked for clarification. Sdbt didn't get clarification. They come

back and argue that they had talks and something should have happened.

The fact was, the talks did not come to a conclusion. No matter what we

do in an over arching issue, we have to deal with parades. I say to Drew

Nelson, they had the chance in 2010. They had a representative at the

talks. We did come to a conclusion. It was Drew Nelson and the hierarchy

of the Orange Order that pulled out of it. Why is the six minute parade

worth so muchup heaval and unrest. Where should police cover such a

tension situation? Hopefully, none of that will be put at risk. The six

minute parade is symptomatic of what happened over the course of the last

15-20 years. There were a series of parades in this area of North

Belfast have been reduced down the year. Whether it was eight, nine,

then six, three, now it's down to one. Is that - are you telling me

that is worth putting the lives of police officers at risk? These

parades - Nothing is worth - So sacred to the unionist community and

to the Orange community that you being are prepared to put police in

the firing line, literally? You have said that a couple of times, Mark.

Nobody is prepared to put police officers lives or anyone else's

lives at risk. The we shouldn't have people from Sinn Fein. They are the

last people to talk about anybody's lives being put at risk given what

they took us through - They were at risk last year? They were.

Hopefully, it won't be the case this year. It hasn't been the case since

this determination was announced, wrong as it was illogical as it was.

No evidence of any violence of any kind in any illegal activity in the

past week. Let us make sure, whatever we say and do, means that

is maintained over the course of the next Are you week. Confident that

will be the case? Well, hopefully it will. I mean, if people are being

looking for guarantees, nobody can give a guarantee. We don't know what

will happen tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully, it will be the same as it

was yesterday, and the day before and the day before that. We have to

resolve these matters. We have have to get to the point where

nationalists and republicans can see no offence is intended. If none is

being intended then insist on taking offence and demanding that these

parades are rerouted or restricted in some way to give offence to the

unionist A final community. Question to Gerry Kelly. The unionists have

asked, you will have seen it in the press conference, they asked the

Government to set up a time-bound commission of inquiry to look at

this issue. Will you co-operate with that, support that? Is is that a

reasonable way of moving the process forward or will you block it? It

adds to the silliness of the theatre today when the Union Jack, Billy

Hudson wearing a top hat. It actually - they have asked for a

commission into a Commission. There is a Commission. The Parades'

Commission. It was set up by statute. Set up by the British

Government who they are going to now to set up a commission. They have

problems with it, you can't put that away? They are asking this British

Secretary of State for a commission on a small section of a parade when

this same Secretary of State refused recently to give any inquest to very

serious killings in the past and refused public inquiries into a

number of other killings in the past as well. Is we need to leave it

there. Gerry shouldn't talk about killings. We need to leave it there.

Thank you both very much. Now, it's our last programme

before the summer break which means it's time for our second

annual, The View Political Awards. We gathered our team of esteemed

commentators, appropriately enough, at the venue of the Haass talks,

the Stormont Hotel. But unlike those negotiations,

our discussions produced results. The first category is Best Newcomer.

Get the ball rolling. I like Ross Brown of the Greens. He ran a very

good election campaign. I think he was one of the best performers on

the hustings. His background, he used to be a DUP-supporting time.

Ing -- type. Can we though Nicola Mallon into the ring. She has come

centre stage as the first nationalist female Lord Mayor and

hosted the Queen. I love an under dog. That is in terms of NI21. A

disaster of the year. For Johnny allows me to snatch one small

victory. I think his contribution on the

education brief has been quite good. Let us move on to Best Minister.

Simon Hamilton. If you take away the issue around, in terms of

performance. If you look at manners in his role. He is stood above the

parapet. Michelle O'Neill is responsible for the agreement of

firearm subsidy payments. A triumph and a light at a difficult time.

Deirdre Heenan is suggesting Arlene Foster is in a league of her own,

articulate, incisive. Bat off a determined opponent with a withering

glance and a sharp - I will go for Simon Hamilton. He has been the most

impressive minister overall without question. Danny Kennedy as a

possible contender. I'm bedazzled by the Giro d'Italia and the Tour de

France this week I think his initiative on Belfast on the Move

and the cycling revolution was a really inspiring thing. Was it Danny

in lycra that did it? Yeah! Nobody put Peter Robinson into the... Best

Use of Social Media. This is uncontested. The winner should be

Mairtin OMuilleoir. It was impossible for him to be - I would

like to nominate NI21 as a cautionary tale. They got 2% of the

vote when they were in meltdown. That is through their social media

presence. They used it to get themselves started. Wonderful

slogans. Impressed with Naomi Long. Her performance on the Select

Committee. I know who Miley Cyrus is. Then Best Political Moment. That

moment where a bomb shell dropped. NI21 implosion. When John

McCallister walked into the party I'm leader of and said - it's

dysfunctional, please don't vote for it. When the talks collapsed, the

Haass talks collapsed. When Mark interviewed Richard Haass and asked

him whether he would consider coming back. You might come back for one

further final push if that sorted it out once and for all? For his laugh.

What happened this year, that made the biggest difference, something

new, the on-the-runs verdict. The Downey judgment what it revealed.

Dirty deals were out in the open. Former Government ministers were

saying, we let people off the hook. Queen. It was a very potent moment.

At the time, I was quite flippant. You look back five years even, that

would not have happened. The final category, Best MLA. The late David.

He had an ability to take a serious moment and bring it all back to

normal. Everybody referred to him as a gentleman. I think he should be a

serious contender. I the doorstep interview when she was very

emotional. I know ethnic minorities have been attacked and I feel

vulnerable. I think it was quite moving. Anna, I would agree on

that. Yes, her grace and the pressure she has been under, but the

light she shone on the issue of racism in Northern Ireland. If you

are asking who has the most influence in the assembly, who is

the one people like us watch, who gets the most coverage? It is Jim

Allister. Will Jim Allister take the coveted title two years in a row? We

will find out shortly. Deirdre Heenan, who emailed her

choices, Alex Kane, Orna Young, And of course,

Newton Emerson and Cathy The winner is Ross Brown. Why? It

showed the move of the Green Party into Belfast and I think that is a

trend that is probably set to continue and Ross Brown will be

leading the charge on that. He is a new, with a longevity to his

political career, probably. He was tweeting advice last month on where

to buy heating oil. He certainly made an impact in a short buried of

time. Well done to Ross Brown. Now best minister, won by Martin

McGuinness last year. Newton, can you do the honours? The winner, near

unanimous decision, Simon Hamilton. Why? He is a new minister in the

post. This year the welfare reform issue blew up and he has managed to

keep a level head throughout that. Almost everyone thought it was very

impressive. He said almost everyone. My first choice would have been

Arlene Foster. She made a great impression this year. She can reduce

her opponents to withering messes with her strong stir. She was a good

contender. Let us move on to best use of social media. You told us who

you think should win this hands down. Let us see if you were

successful in persuading the other judges. And the winner of the best

use of social media, is the price of rice, Mairtin O Muilleoir. --

surprise, surprise. He was pictured with everybody all year long! He

managed to completely rebrand the idea of what the Lord may's office

is for. To be fair, it was not hard to persuade the other judges -- the

Lord Mayor. I am not on Twitter and even I knew what he was up to. The

Ricci had permeated beyond social media -- the reach he had. It is

time for you to get onto Twitter! I know. I will think about it over the

summer. Best political moment. You are going to take us through this

one, Newton. A huge number of possibilities. Was it an easy

choice? No. We tried to separate processes from moments. We wanted to

pick a moment that summed up the whole year rather than any of the

big set piece developments. What did you go with? The winner is... Dr

Richard Haass's laugh when asked by you if he would return to Chad

further talks. Explain because some people might see it as a small

moment -- return to chair further talks. That last third 50,000

words. That summed up everything that was wrong about the Richard

Haass process. It summed up very clearly what was going to happen

between January and June which was not a lot. The fact he laughed

showed he was not coming back. It shows what the people here who

pretend to take that seriously really think of us when looking in!

Finally, Best MLA won last year by Jim Allister. It was difficult. It

was a very difficult decision. Probably most of the conversation

that date was on who should win Best MLA. Put us out of our misery. The

winner of Best MLA for 2014 is a shared award because the jury was

split and could not agree. The award goes to both Jim Allister and Anna

Lo. Jim Allister has no position himself because the DUP and Sinn

Fein tend to ignore him. A qualified vote for Jim Allister from the

panel. With Anna Lo, what she showed the electorate was a different type

of political leader. As well as being chair of one of the committees

of the environment committee, she faced down intimidation and threats

herself with good grace and a really strong backbone. A woman with a very

strong conviction and a lot of courage. We need to leave at there.

It was a long afternoon. But we did reach some conclusions, even if

there were compromises! That is it from The View tonight and this

varies. Unlike Arthur Brooks, we will definitely be coming back. For

now from all of us, goodbye. -- tonight and this series.