Browse content similar to 25/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Is the DUP in rebellion against its leader, or has Peter Robinson | :00:00. | :00:25. | |
re-asserted his grip and thwarted a possible challenge to his position? | :00:26. | :00:41. | |
It is clear that some babe or so puffed up by their own importance. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
-- some people . But with dire warnings | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
of financial meltdown looming, what will it take to get the | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
Stormont train back on its tracks? We hear the Finance Minister's | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
solution to the difficulties confronting | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
his party and the Executive. And with talk of crisis | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
and collapse, can other parties come Plus, the fallout from the Scottish | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
independence referendum rumbles on. If we don't give the English affair | :01:01. | :01:13. | |
voice, there would be a union, England will say enough. To save the | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
union, they must be devolution for everyone. | :01:17. | :01:17. | |
And familiar faces in the new-look Commentators' Corner. | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
Tonight I'm joined by Professor Cathy Gormley-Heenan | :01:20. | :01:20. | |
And you can, of course, join the debate on Twitter - | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
There was a Twitter torrent of support | :01:25. | :01:34. | |
for Peter Robinson this afternoon from DUP MLAs and MPs after renewed | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
That speculation was fuelled by Edwin Poots the day | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
after he'd been replaced as Health Minister in a major reshuffle. | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
And the First Minister didn't hold back today branding some, un-named, | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
party members "lemmings" for causing disunity. | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Our Political Correspondent, Gareth Gordon, has been reviewing | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
The DUP prides itself on an image of being a happy family. But like all | :01:54. | :02:08. | |
families, especially one that is getting bigger, there are records. | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
It is just that those on the outside already -- hardly get to hear of | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
them. That is changing. This week, Peter Robinson decided to rearrange | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
the furniture, showing who is boss. I am here taking three meals a day, | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
happy in the job I'm doing. The message did not get through to with | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
one -- to one who has reason to be so. That is public knowledge. | :02:41. | :02:54. | |
It is generally taken to be less than a year. Edwin Poots was slapped | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
down. Though it seems that silence is no longer golden. After | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
Tuesday's reshuffle, a few more people have not been silent. But it | :03:08. | :03:08. | |
is not the DUP way, is it? Gareth Gordon posing that question | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
and Peter Robinson answered it It is clear there are some people | :03:13. | :03:24. | |
who are so puffed up by their own importance, people who have the | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
strategic vision of a lemming and we have to deal with those people and | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
they will not take us of course, it is clear where the party's direction | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
is and the party has choices to make. It can follow people down the | :03:38. | :03:46. | |
road to destruction, let's have a proper analysis of what was had. | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
Some people in the media want to stir stuff up and there is a small | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
group of people who want to whisper behind backs and try and stir things | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
with the media. The party will deal with them. | :04:02. | :04:02. | |
Peter Robinson in robust form this morning. | :04:03. | :04:04. | |
So, difficulities within the DUP and division around the Executive table | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
The DUP's Finance Minister, Simon Hamilton, is with me. | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
So Peter Robinson now concedes, at last, that there is a rump of | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
malcontents in the party stirring up disunity who need to be dealt with. | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
It is clear there was a small number in the party who are seeking to | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
divide the party. What is more clear now is that there is a huge amount | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
of overwhelming support for Peter Robinson remaining as leader of the | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
party, not just through the general election, but the assembly election | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
and beyond. Why'd you think the individuals who are set upon causing | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
disunity are acting the fold? As a matter for them to explain, but what | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
is clear, particularly given the difficult times were written in | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
Northern Ireland, with pressure is respective of the budget and getting | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
a budget agreed with the need to reform the institutions, and Pete | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
has been clear about that. We all come onto that. Peter is absolutely | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
the right way to lead -- right person to leave. Quite damaging to | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
him as a leader and damaging for the DUP to hear about puffed up | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
lemmings, full of their own self-importance you have to be dealt | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
with. It is not the way the DUP does its business, we are apart that | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
prides itself on being a family. You were. It isn't helpful that people | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
are talking quietly and buy-backs and trying to undermine the leader. | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
What is absolutely clear today is that there is overwhelming support | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
for Peter Robinson and the direction he is taking the party and it is | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
clear that that is where the party, whether MP or MLA, that is where | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
they want to go. What if he hasn't put the rebellion down? What if his | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
comments have wounded people like Edwin Poots and perhaps others and | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
their wants to fight back? I think it is clear today, at the risk of | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
repeating myself, at the amount of support that has been offered from | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
every level in the party for Peter Robinson, that his position is | :06:21. | :06:29. | |
secure . It looks a bit manufactured. Over 20 | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
MPs and MLAs hooting their support for Peter Robinson. | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
Jim Allister was amused by what he saw | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
as 'orchestrated tweets of undying loyalty to 'Our Dear Leader''. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
People have wanted to going behind Peter and show clearly, people | :06:49. | :07:01. | |
wanted to show the wider world who backs and people wanted to show | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
those in the media, in the wider world that they also supported him | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
and they want to take us forward. Let me ask you finally about the two | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
tweets we saw from Edwin Poots and Paul Givan. They seem to be going | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
through the motions. They do not make it clear that they personally | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
support Peter Robinson. They say he has a mandate. It is clear from what | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
has been said today that Peter Robinson has the support of the | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
party. People in the party at all levels wants to see Peter Robinson | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
take us through the difficult times ahead. I2-mac you think yes button | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
to the sword? -- he has put them -- they have put into the sword. He is | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
taking the party forward. You wanted to table a paper | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
taking the party forward. You wanted difficult the budgetary situation is | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
and that was dealt under any other business. | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
I was upset that it was not taken, because I | :08:11. | :08:10. | |
I was upset that it was not taken, system and it was the best guess | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
that we can ensure that we live within our budget. People know our | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
budget is under pressure, that is within our budget. People know our | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
compounded by the fact we have two page ?87 million in welfare reform | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
compounded by the fact we have two penalties and a paper I put forward | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
was the best guess about not spending the block grant. But it | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
wasn't discussed? You have to put the question to Sinn Fein, they | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
refused to... I want to... I wanted the issue discussed. It was welcomed | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
by other members. They respected there was a need to have a proper, | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
sensible adult conversation about a serious issue. We hope to Sinn Fein | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
would be here, but unfortunately nobody has been available from the | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
party to join us. When you talk to people in the party, they make it | :09:06. | :09:06. | |
clear that you did not people in the party, they make it | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
niceties and protocols as you are meant to table papers like that in | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
advance, and I think this one was tabled yesterday. It was, but what | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
most people have installed you is that -- have installed you is that | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
what was in the paper is what was outlined a fortnight ago. It was | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
contained within a briefing that was given to members of the | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
contained within a briefing that was last Thursday. This is information | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
that the Deputy 1st Minster and everybody else in Sinn Fein have had | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
from a fortnight ago. What's the Deputy Minister say? He said that he | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
would have to look at it, but that is what he said today. It | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
underscores the reality that we understand, that he is not in charge | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
of his party, that it is Gerry Adams was calling the shots and saying | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
Martin McGuinness, who wanted to do a deal, cannot move forward and show | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
leadership. So we have leadership problems into parties now? I think | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
it is clear that Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland, it is Sinn Fein in | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Dublin who is called the shots. It is a nice sound bite, but you don't | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
have any evidence. It is clear from comments that have been made in the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
last 24 hours from Gerry Adams that he is asserting his authority and | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
that is putting above the interests of Northern Ireland the interest of | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
people in the Republic of Ireland, that is very damaging. It is a | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
situation well if we do not cut our spending quickly, the risk every day | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
that passes that we will overspend our budget. If that is the case, | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
what happens is the Treasury takes the money we overspend of our budget | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
for next year for stop and next year's budget is already under | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
pressure. Are you saying that Gerry Adams is trying to undermine the | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
leadership of Sinn Fein in Northern Ireland? I think you're it has | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
leathery pulled the rug from under Martin McGuinness on welfare reform. | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
Quickly, or to ask you about details on Ian Paisley's memorial service. | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
What form will that take? Will it be a political or religious events? It | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
is a family event and it has been run by the Paisley family and I | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
think it would be an opportunity for those of us who respected and loved | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
Doctor Paisley to show our respect for him and to show our comfort to | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
the family as they grieve his passing. I will certainly be there | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
and I think many from the party will be there to show our respect on the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
passing of a great man. Thank you very much indeed. | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
For now, thank you. Joining me are the Alliance leader David Ford, | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
Dolores Kelly and the TUV leader Jim Allister. We did have Sinn Fein to | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
provide a representative for the discussion but we were told no-one | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
was available. David Ford, first the biggest financial crisis to face | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
Stormont was under any other business. Which is not surely, the | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
way that we should be treating it It is not. The point that I made back | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
in July, we weren't treating it properly. We needed to have a proper | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
mature discussion among executive minister, we had a briefing a week | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
ago, it was clear the general area where things had to be dealt with, | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
but we simply couldn't get agreement round the table to have that | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
discussion properly. That bit of the fault is almost entirely with Sinn | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Fein, because other parties were prepared to discuss it. We went | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
there intending to have a serious discussion expecting to have a | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
serious discussion, hoping to have a serious discussion. Dolores Kelly | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
were you interested in a serious discussion about this major issue? I | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
was at a public meeting where they are faced with the closure of a | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
college. There was an angry set of parents, there are many young people | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
in temporary fixed contract jobs so there is a lot of uncertainty round | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
welfare reform and the possibility of cuts never mind the redundancies | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
that will happen right across the public sector so I think it is | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
incumbent on all parties to have rational mature debate and | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
conversation and have all the facts laid out for us, so we can discuss | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the best way forward in the interests of everyone in Northern | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Ireland. Why did your party not support the suggestion made by David | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
Ford and Steven that you clear your diary, come back tonight, tomorrow | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
until the matter is resolved? I don't think it a case of clearing | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
your diary. Why not? Well, we could look at clearing the diary, our | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
party is, our party... Why didn't you support that? Our party is on | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
record at wanting to look at everything that is in dispute in | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
Northern Ireland, not only in relation to the budget but on the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
wider issues about settling down, fissioning the failed relationships | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
round the executive table. -- fixing and have the two Governments in the | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
room. So, you know, the SDLP has taken the mature approach, taken | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
risks over the many year, to find the best way forward. All right. Jim | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
Allister, it is easy to be critical from the outside. This is a complex | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
issue. There are differences between the various parties sitting round | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
the table and that is why, as yet, there has been no resolution to this | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
difficult issue discovered? The reason there is no resolution is | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
because the system of Government is unworkable. Anywhere elsewhere you | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
have a coalition there is a basic thread of agreement between the | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
parties before they tern Government. In Northern Ireland because of the | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
import of mandatory coalition, where every party of any reasonable size | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
is automatically guaranteed a place in Government, they don't have to | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
agree thinking. That is for reasons to do with the history of Northern | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
Ireland. Reasons that are strangling good Government. This is a totally | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
failed and failing system. They are making it difficult, does that not | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
mean the politicians have to redouble their efforts to make it | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
work? No it means we have to fix it. The First Minister told us they had | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
a fair deal for Northern Ireland, they had fixed all the, damage and | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
the Belfast agreement, now it admits the system is unfit for purpose. Now | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
last week we had the Scottish referendum. The Prime Minister came | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
out and said there must be constitutional reform. Yes, there | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
must. But where he needs to start in Northern Ireland is restoring to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
Northern Ireland the democratic imperatives that everyone else has, | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
the right to have an opposition, the right to change your Government. | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
Unless and until we get a system based on that where you a coalition | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
of the willing, who will deal with the issue, and those who aren't | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
willing will be the opposition, unless and until we get to that | :16:04. | :16:05. | |
situation, Government in Northern Ireland is not going to work. And | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
here we are, in a situation with deep, deep, financial crisis, and a | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
Finance Minister who can't get his paper on the executive table, | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
because of the Sinn Fein veto. Of course Sinn Fein aren't in | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
Government to give anyone in good Government. They don't believe in | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
Northern Ireland. No surprise that they are strangling Government at | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
every opportunity. OK. Simon Hamilton do you want to come back | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
in? It will not probably be a huge surprise to hear you Jim saying the | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
it is the way the First Minister is handling the situation, it is the | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
strangulated form of Government in Northern Ireland, rather than | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
specifically Sinn Fein's refusal to o kiss the issue of welfare repom. I | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
find it amusing when Jim criticises the system. I can remember in 2007 | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
Jim wanted to wait another six months. That is a lie. And Jim would | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
have us, and I accept Peter Robinson said the system isn't fit for | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
purpose, we have done many good things in Stormont over the last | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
seven year, it does need reform but it is better than what Jim's option | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
is which is a return... It is not working. OK... It is not fit for | :17:14. | :17:23. | |
purpose. It is not time to find an alternative? It is not Jim who is | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
suggesting that, Peter Robinson suggested what we need is a set | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
piece negotiations where this is the issue that is on the table and that | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
we all the parties sit and negotiate a better way forward. It has served | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
us not perfectly but for the last number of years and we need | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
something new to Mo forward on. It is fit for purpose. They need to... | :17:45. | :18:19. | |
you think we should be doing to put our best foot forward. There are | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
institutional issue, the Good Friday agreement set up arrangements to | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
move away from the past. It fulfilled that purpose. It is not | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
providing good Government now. That is why the Alliance has been | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
talking... Is it put for purpose It is for | :18:38. | :18:37. | |
talking... Is it put for purpose It That is why we need to change that. | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
But we have a much more pressing need, which is to resolve the | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
financial issues and that requires people to get real about where the | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
economy is, to deal with the issues that face us and to not run away | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
from them and not push them out of line. Do you pull the plug? How much | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
longer can we him. On like this? That is an issue which will have to | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
be faced rapt rapidly if we start to get letters from the Treasury. I | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
know what question do in the Department of Justice, I know what | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
we have done over Department of Justice, I know what | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
years managing a difficult budget. We have | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
years managing a difficult budget. protected frontline services but if | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
others are not prepared to live up to things we won't be able do the | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
kind of job I want to do. Dolores Kelly do politicians need to face up | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
to the reality unless this can be fixed and fixed quickly, actually, | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
we would be better not having devolved authority in Northern | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
Ireland? I don't accept that, I think devolution works better for | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
the people. How would you fix the shambles? Can I reflect and remind | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
people, four years ago, three-and-a-half years ago at the | :19:48. | :19:49. | |
start of the mandate Peter Robinson in a speech to the assembly said | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
that no more them and us, that this executive would be judged on | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
delivery and it is some time we delivered for the public. It's the | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
public's interest that we must put before party interests. Tell me what | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
that means in policy terms? You won't get anything anybody to | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
disagree with that. The question is, how do you convert that into real | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
politics and political progress? We need to start dealing with some of | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
the tough issues. The SDLP can talk about it. Other parties have to | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
can't for themselves. And I note they are missing this evening. The | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
SDLP has not run away from the tough decision and we put the people | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
first. We have not dealt with sectarianism and about a shared | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
future and working together. As Mark Durkan said it's the ugly | :20:42. | :20:43. | |
scaffolding of the Belfast agreement you need to deal with. The SDLP has | :20:44. | :20:50. | |
walked away from that and wants to sustain that cannot work, will never | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
work and subject the people of Northern Ireland to a system | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
incapable of working. Let me ask Simon about that scaffolding. Is it | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
time to take it down and actually look at building for what it is? | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
Absolutely it needs to be taken down. We have been saying that for | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
over a decade, that while the structures we have had have served a | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
purpose for a period of time, they were not the long-term | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
settlementment we need to move on in terms of the structures. You can't | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
agree on the process of how you are going to look at that scaffolding. | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
Your party leader met Theresa Villiers today. She can't get all | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
the parties round the table to discuss the outstanding issue, there | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
is no sign of any progress on flags, parades and the past. I have heard | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
from Sinn Fein saying they think the system is unviable as well. So I | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
think there is a growing consensus the structure isn't working Nobody | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
can agree on what to do about it I think we will make progress in | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
terms, as you have identified Peter Robinson has identified them. And I | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
think it is something that is imminent and we can make progress | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
that will ensure that devolution can work in Northern Ireland. What about | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
the Commission of inquiry? That is something again which we have been | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
discussing and we would encourage the Secretary of State to move | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
quickly. Sinn Fein don't want to take part in it It needs to happen, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
it is something the media have been calling for. I don't think the media | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
have been calling for it The Belfast telegraph. That is one newspaper. | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
The media doesn't make policy commands It called for the praise | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
commission itself. So I think a committee of inquiry is the right | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
way to gone and the Secretary of State should move forward quickly. | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
We must leave it there. Time has beaten us. Thank you very up many | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
for joining us. Here is is a question, should Northern Ireland | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
MPs be allowed to vote in Westminster on English only matters? | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
That is one of the pressing questions facing us now the | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
referendum in Scotland is over. Our political correspondent has been | :22:58. | :23:07. | |
investigating. No, 19,036. | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Scotland gave its answer, but now the Scottish question has given way | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
to the English question. I have long believed that a crucial | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
part missing from this national discussion is England. We have heard | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
the voice of Scotland, and now the millions of voices of England must | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
also be heard. Those English voices are now | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
demanding English votes for English laws. I tell you something, if we | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
don't give the enlast lib a fair voice there won't be a union. | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
England will say enough is enough. We have to have devolution that | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
works for everybody. The vast majority of MPs are English. 533. | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
There is 59 from Scotland, 40 from Wales and 18 from Northern Ireland. | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
The notion of a two tyre chamber is controversial. -- tier. Our high | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
feeling MPs are used to go to London to vote on UK-wide leg lakes, there | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
are calls there shouldn't be allowed to vote own English matters. They | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
say that is reasonable but it is not straight forward. Take for example | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
the issue of Heathrow expansion. That has a direct impact on my | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
constituency. And in terms of the economy. Yet it would appear on the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
surface to be an England and Wales question, it is a question that | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
affects the whole of the UK in terms of how we connect to the rest of the | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
world. How do you define English only legislation? There are lots of | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
grey area, take for example if there was to be a changes in welfare, | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
proposed for England only. Given that the Treasury has to pay for | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
those changes, and if the changes weren't reciprocated in Scotland, | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
Northern Ireland, or Wales, then there will be a consequence for | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales any way, so the argument would be | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
should we not have some say in the debate on that? Order, order! | :25:12. | :25:19. | |
Indeed, there are significant concerns about how to monitor or | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
police the system. It would be like on a driving license where we have | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
the different categories of vehicle, they would have to check on who is | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
allowed to vote on what. It is is a debate that won't go away. It is | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
leading to calls for wider reform, of how we are governed. | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
What I can't understand is why people who are now campaigning very | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
hard to stop elected members in the Commons to vote on matters seem to | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
be content to have a lot of unelected members from all over the | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
place the the House of Lords deciding legislation, so if you are | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
going to move to change and reform things, in the House of Commons, I | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
think it makes the case for reform or even abolition in terms of the | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
House of Lords. Some say the solution is giving cities greater | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
powers. Others argue for an English assembly separate from Parliament. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
Leaving MPs to deal with issues such as defence and foreign affair, but | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
even that has its critics. I don't think that there is a case for an | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
English Parliament, because if you have an English Parliament it seems | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
to me you have to have a separate English executive with an English | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
First Minister, then you will have a UK-wide Prime Minister, and they | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
could be drawn from different party, and that would be a recipe I suspect | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
for conflict, disarray, confusion. There are warnings we could lose out | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
financially. If political reform leads to change on how the UK money | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
pot is shared out With a low taxable base, with you know, an | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
underdeveloped private sector, that could lead to the gradual further | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
improve Irishment of Northern Ireland. I think, I am not being a | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
Cassandra here, but that is a risk. There are opportunities though if | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
the Commons moves to a two tier system. Perhaps more time for our | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
MPs to raise and debate issues, one thing is certain, the Scottish | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
referendum has changed things utterly. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
The Northern Ireland-born MP for Vauxhall who has made it very | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
You don't think non-English MPs should vote on English-only matters? | :27:31. | :27:40. | |
I think English representing English constituencies, but I think there is | :27:41. | :27:56. | |
a principle involved. This has been an issue for some time, the Scottish | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
referendum has really highlighted it, because immediately before they | :28:02. | :28:03. | |
were offered extra powers and of course immediately those of us in | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
England who have seen in the past certain legislation go through | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
specifically because -- because of the votes of Scottish MPs when it | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
does not affect them at all. Foundation Trusts for example. That | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
went through because of Scottish Labour MPs. We had no say in the | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
health service in Scotland, so I think I can understand the feeling | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
of some Members of Parliament for Northern Ireland or Wales or | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
Scotland who will feel maybe that they would like to be voting on | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
everything, but at the moment the reality is they don't. Quite a few | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
don't vote when it comes to an issue that does not affect the area. | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
But as we saw in Martina Purdy's package, | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
You heard people saying there are issues that could be at first glance | :28:55. | :29:05. | |
English only, but they are quite congregated and have ramifications | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
asked in Northern Ireland, for example Heathrow Airport. There will | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
always be difficulties, but I think there is a clear principle that | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
obviously the Clerk of the House and Chief Executive of Commons or the | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
Speaker of the House comments or however the format of the was | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
arrived at, there'll be an issue. No one is saying it should happen | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
tomorrow, but I think we want to see an acceptance by all the members of | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
Pollard in different parts of the UK that they recognise this is a real | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
problem. -- Members of Parliament. I just don't think the way to do it is | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
to set up an assembly that will go on for a very long time, cost a lot | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
of money, just to discuss the issue. We may need it later. Would you not | :29:55. | :30:01. | |
be concerned. You busy have a good relationship with a lot of Northern | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
Ireland MPs. Would you not be concerned that people from here | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
would be second-class MPs? We would two tiers of MP. | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
I don't really accept that as a 2 tier issue, some of them will see | :30:17. | :30:26. | |
its like that, but some recognise they won't vote on some issues that | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
don't affect their constituents. But there are ways around it. When you | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
look at it, something like 522 English MPs representing English | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
constituencies, 100 and whatever it is 17 from others, we have an | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
English Parliament a lot of the time in terms of numbers and all we would | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
have to do is for certain issues, those people would not vote. The | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
Scottish house arrests have done that all along, they don't vote on | :30:56. | :31:04. | |
English only issue. -- Scottish Nationalists. Constitutional changes | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
will come as a result of the Scottish referendum and will affect | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
us. Some people who take your position also take the view that | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
there needs to be an English Parliament. | :31:20. | :31:20. | |
Is that not the logical conclusion to your argument? | :31:21. | :31:22. | |
Then would we have an English Executive and an | :31:23. | :31:24. | |
I am not in favour. There are some people, but I do not think an | :31:25. | :31:33. | |
English parliament will happen. It would be ludicrous to set up another | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
machinery of Government. It would needed to separate place to meet, we | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
have a system there, we just need small changes. There will be | :31:45. | :31:51. | |
acceptance that the changes needed, but people will come to it | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
gradually. There is a huge constitutional debates taking place | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
and you have been sitting in the wings watching our politicians | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
debating key issues. Flags, parades, talks and the failure to agree on a | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
budget. There does seem to be a pressing need for somebody to put | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
that right. I know you come here a lot, but what do you make... With | :32:16. | :32:26. | |
seemingly seem to be looking into a bit of an abyss. On well for | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
reform, and people would be horrified and | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
people have got used to certain things, but I do think that it is | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
something that will have to be addressed and addressed urgently. If | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
there is a Labour Government in next May, they will not be coming out and | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
handing out more money for welfare. This has to be sorted and it has to | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
be sorted soon. On all of the other things that I listen to, ultimately | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
I think whoever said it was right, the whole setup was to bring peace | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
and was to get a particular solving of a particular problem. We have had | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
a number of years of fact, now we need an opposition, we need | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
normal,', politics in Northern Ireland. | :33:21. | :33:22. | |
Let's hear what our commentators make | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
Settling into their new home are Professor Cathy | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
Congratulations on your elevation, Cathy, and your new title. We are | :33:29. | :33:37. | |
all very starstruck. You have written a book about | :33:38. | :33:47. | |
political leadership, I know you have looked at the DUP specifically. | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
How choppy are the waters that Peter Robinson finds himself in? We could | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
have predicted the reshuffle would happen, they tend to happen when a | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
party leader or Prime Minister is facing an internal party challenge, | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
is facing a party leader or Prime Minister is facing an internal party | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
challenge, is facing their personal popularity stakes at a lower level | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
than their parties. I think the internal review seems to suggest | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
that the party sees Peter Robinson's popularity ratings as | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
lower than the parties, hence the reshuffle. To use a type of language | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
that were used to now from the First Minister, is ungracious words like | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
lemmings and so on about ministers that he saw fit to hold office for | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
important portfolios, shows he himself knows he is in a crisis. Do | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
you think he the rebels? I think it was a clever bit of management, but | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
he has underlit today on television. -- undone it. I think the threat is | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
that there is nobody left who can say don't say that. He has | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
apparently surrounded himself with Yasmin who put on these ridiculous | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
media performances. -- yes men. Why has he not righted the ship? This | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
performance on television is what the public will see. They will see | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
our First Minister and leader of our largest party behaving like a bit of | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
idiots. -- a bit of an idiot. The tweets did not help. It'll suggest | :35:29. | :35:39. | |
the lady. Protest too much. The DUP's official Twitter account | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
was putting out twits for MLA's who do not have their own twitter | :35:45. | :35:45. | |
accounts. -- s it is difficult to know how Peter | :35:46. | :35:54. | |
Robinson handles this. He moved to try to quell dissent. | :35:55. | :36:09. | |
Will that be the case or the rumblings will continue? The | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
conversation is about when Peter will continue? The conversation is | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
about when Peter Wilco have long preceded this about any party | :36:16. | :36:24. | |
leaders. -- when Peter will leave. Its long predated what happened over | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
the last few days and it will continue beyond. What is most | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
interesting is that there are two parallel universes here. The | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
conversation tonight was about being here for the next election and the | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
assembly election in complete isolation of the fact that we have a | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
constitution reform commission, what's devolved powers regions will | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
have, that will throw everything in the air and those things are moving | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
past each other. That is likely to make the | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
past each other. That is likely to Ultimately, there is no alternative | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
campaign. I spoke to a senior member of the DUP who said there is no | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
great love for Peter Robinson in the party, but people respect he is the | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
great love for Peter Robinson in the best man for the job at the moment | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
as he is a good should eject finger and he is a good decision maker. | :37:17. | :37:26. | |
-- strategic thinker. The evidence would show that strategic leadership | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
does not equate to knee jerk reactions and statements to the | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
press that uses unparliamentary language like lemmings. | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
You are the Economist, let's talk about the failure to agree the | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
budgets. How serious is the situation? It is | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
serious politically, but to put it in context financially the paper | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
Simon Hamilton was talking about revealed that Stormont is still | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
getting more money this year than was planned when its budget was set | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
up three years ago. There has been mismanagement all around. But this | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
is a problem they have all course and they all course and they only to | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
sit down and work it out. One sentence on the failure to agree It | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
is the same to a -- it is the same as the failure to agree the system | :38:16. | :38:20. | |
of Government. That is it for this week. Join me for Sunday Politics on | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
Sunday. The word of the day was lemmings and | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
it reminded us of a classic 1990s computer game. | :38:33. | :38:48. |