29/10/2015 The View

This week, we've ten days to get a deal.

So is it "Back to the Future" or has Stormont got a "Time Machine"?

Tonight, we ask what is the real story around the

Endgames, deadlines and soul-selling -

both the DUP and Sinn Fein suggest progress at the talks.

But are the Ulster Unionists, SDLP and Alliance outsiders?

I'll be talking to three of those parties as we move into

Also tonight, has the DUP's decision to resume business as usual

after the report on paramilitaries upset their supporters?

It has shocked me to the core of the fact that my political party has

gone back into government. The people of Northern Ireland have

welcomed the fact we are working behind our desks again.

And back in Commentators' Corner - Paul McFadden and Alex Kane.

Well, you know it's Halloween when one party accuses the other

That's just one of the many insults flying round the halls of Stormont

a deal does now look more likely than ever.

You just need to look at who's trading the insults.

There are those who are sitting on the sidelines, we know who they are,

they are the whingers, the wreckers, the political snipers, who

look for failure, who hope for failure, so that they might

personally, or from a party point of view, benefit. It will not benefit

in a birdie if, in a grand eyes and themselves, they destroy our process

here in Northern Ireland. -- it will not benefit in a birdie. There are

people who think they will have some sort of advantage if the process

breaks down, and to use a recently quoted phrase, they are on the wrong

side of history to bring this process down. Some parties cannot

get out of the door quick enough to say something negatively feeding

into what we are trying to do. We haven't done that. I don't think the

DUP have done that. But I think other parties have done that. That

is not conducive to getting a good outcome. He used the word snipers,

political snipers, this from a man whose party stood one-mile down

Prince of Wales Avenue, at the far side of the barriers, crying traitor

at the party who got these institutions up and running. And are

fighting hard to keep them up and running and doing so in the five

party talks at Stormont House, not the 2-party carbuncle he is engaged

in at the castle. So the battle lines look

well and truly drawn Joining us tonight,

Simon Hamilton of the DUP, Alasdair McDonnell,

leader of the SDLP, and Stephen Farry

of the Alliance Party. We asked Sinn Fein and the two take

part, but they declined. Simon Hamilton, are you speaking with one

voice with Sinn Fein? What we are trying to do and continue to do is

to save Stormont. We want to see a deal that saves devolution to get

Stormont delivering again for people in Northern Ireland. At any price?

Absolutely not, serious issues need to be dealt with around paramilitary

organisations, which caused this current crisis, and the need for

talks, but the practical problem around our budget and welfare reform

and to get those issues dealt with and get stable finances. A range of

issues we need to deal with to rescue devolution, get it delivering

for the people of Northern Ireland, and even after difficult weeks and

months the message to my party and I am sure others is, as imperfect the

system is, people won't Stormont there and delivering, and we wanted

to use this process to improve the system, so that it can deliver for

people. Have you moved on from the paramilitary issue? Not moved on in

the sense of revolving the issue. We had an assessment last week which

starkly painted the extent of the problem we have, issues we have to

dissolve in the talks process, and we are intensively engaging in that

process, but equally engaging in budget and welfare, to get finances

back on to a stable footing to release some resources into

front-line services, not least my department, the Department of

Health. There has been a dramatic shift in language, back in July,

your party leader accused Sinn Fein of pathetic posturing and spinning,

get out of government if you don't have the guts to govern, but today

seeing the tripped over the detail of welfare reform. Complete shift!

We have worked hard and had difficult times over the last weeks

and months, precipitated by the killing of Kevin McGuigan, and the

finger pointed at the provisional IRA, and that has been difficult and

tricky and will remain so, but we have worked with very hard with Sinn

Fein, absolutely, but other parties as well. We will come back to

welfare reform, but Alistair MacDonald, how close to you think we

are to a deal? -- Alastair McDonnell. There seems to be a deal

in the offing. The party seemed to be behind-the-scenes, the rest of us

working robustly and honestly in engagement at Stormont House. There

was a lot of dancing around in circles over the last five or six

weeks but we seem to have some romancing now. Where does that leave

the SDLP? That we have a robust leak representing the public interest,

looking after victims and survivors, the people on the margins

of society, putting the case for honesty and the nasty. -- honesty

and decency. Quite honestly when things are going well, they try to

take the credit and when things get difficult they try to dump the blame

on the rest of us. What about the issue of legacy? We

did not expect that to trip up the talks, can you sign up to the

legislation? At the minute, it is weak and flawed, the bill produced

is not fit for purpose, there are some bits that are useful, but it

will not provide for the needs, not provide truth and justice for

victims and survivors. Why not? It is wrapped up in national security,

anything of contention, and the Secretary of State could rule things

out, and there are some issues in which a stake knife was involved in,

or alleged, and that will rule international security. Was .37 of

the Stormont House agreement, but that not say that Westminster hat

would have some powers over national security? There is powers and there

is powers. We need the Historical Investigations Unit to work, needed

it to be independence, and we need the overall umbrella body to be set

in statute so that basically it has a meaningful role and for once and

for ever we will sort out the past as the victims and be able to leave

it behind and satisfied that truth and justice is provided. Is this a

red line issue for you? It is an issue we will fight and ensure we

get satisfaction and it comes out right and we will be faking it right

to the floor of Westminster or anywhere else we can. Stephen Farry,

is it a 3 party deal as has been suggested, yourselves, DUP and Sinn

Fein? Certainly no deal yet, still some way to go, some major

differences between the parties on a range of different issues. But we

are keen to caution against what will be getting to the elections

next spring, we have had crisis politics over the last number of

years, deteriorating relationships, too much of the mutual veto, missing

opportunities, not taking important decisions. People want to see a real

restart at Stormont, not just saving Stormont, is but a fresh start,

building new relationships and making sure we have a budget that

can tackle all the issues out there, and we can take advantage of

opportunities that come our way. Will you sell your soul for power as

Mike Nesbitt suggested the Alliance Party was doing? We represent the

people of Northern Ireland who have given as a mandate and act

responsibly, representing not just the people who voted for us but the

entire community and it is important the look and try to build something

in Northern Ireland. Mike Nesbitt over the past month has been

destructive. He was seeking to bring the whole thing down. He said it was

a point of principle. What a point of principle was it? He spoke about

what Republicans are doing, but he has been happy to share platforms

with Loyalists, very little sign of principle in terms of what he has

said and frankly we have seen no evidence of any ideas from their

party over the past month, no alternative approach to build

stability, and people are rightly sceptical about what the party is up

to. Talking about welfare reform, then, will it be implemented in the

way suggested in the Stormont House agreement? This issue of welfare

reform has plagued Stormont for the last two years and more, and we have

been losing millions and millions of pounds in welfare reform penalties

because we have not passed legislation. You hope those will be

wiped out, part of the financial deal you will go to the British

government with? We have a meeting this week amongst the parties about

finances and getting finances sustainable, which involves welfare

reform, and those penalties, we are losing ?140 million this year, which

could be spent on health and reducing waiting lists and other

departments. All five parties on agreement? There is work going on in

terms of welfare reform and issues around finances, because it is

incredibly important and Stephen made the point about looking at the

longer term in terms of finances. But your party was clear about

welfare reform throughout this year and yet there seems to be a shift in

language again from Peter Robinson, talking about tax credits,

households affected, is tax credits and cuts to get part of the deal?

You try and offer compensation for people? We need welfare reform

legislation to pass and it is the failure of the SDLP and Sinn Fein to

not live up to their commitments that has given us these financial

problems and on tax credits this has developed over the past couple of

months and EU beef at once to support hard-working people and

families. -- and the DUP wants to support. Alastair McDonnell, is that

how you see it? Simon Hamilton, talking about living up to

responsibilities, he has been talked about the SDLP... The SDLP stuck a

deal at Stormont House, the bill was flawed, we try to amend that, and

the DUP in the stuff and I can go through some things if you want to

do. You signed up too well for -- signed up to welfare reform and then

walked away. Things like the Bedroom Tax, things like penalties, somebody

sent to a job where they could not take it, and losing money for 13

months. And will those mitigating factors, will be still get those on

welfare reform? Some of the mitigating factors were avoided, we

needed to find during the bill and are still prepared to fine tune all

of that. There are people living on the street, I am finding people at

my office some mornings lying in the street, we will not have a situation

where people are sleeping rough and we need to avoid that and Simon and

others need to live up to it that welfare reform, we are in favour of

it, but not in favour of slash and burn reform and we are not going

there. Stephen Farry, is there optimism and people on benefits

could be optimistic that there will be a better deal for them?

We have a deal already in terms of the current agreement. If we have a

singular focus around transport payment and welfare in itself we

miss a large part of the picture. We need to invest in skills to give

people opportunities and access to employment and move out of welfare.

We should also bear in mind that the most vulnerable in society most on

public services. If we take more money out of our public spending to

invest in welfare we disproportionately unbalance the

economy and end up hurting people even more. It is important we are

responsible and balanced in the approach. Is it possible Westminster

will implement the welfare reform? If we do not, the government will

step in and do that. Would you be happy to hand it over? We want

welfare legislation passed. We just want to see it past because we want

to get it dealt with. The deal that was done at Stormont, Sinn Fein and

the SDLP walked away with the most generous welfare reform bill in all

of the United Kingdom. We want that deal we did implemented. We want

protection and flexible to that we negotiated and we have set money

aside and lamented money in Northern Ireland and that is harming people

and it is acting as a disincentive to people that have no income but

are striving and trying their best. Can we do it in ten days? Time is

short in terms of getting a deal. The impact of not moving forward is

starting to hit departments. We need a deal quickly to release finance

into health and other departments. The point is this, the welfare deal

can be done but all it requires is those flaws in the bill to be fixed.

We put down a number of amendments. Most of them are cost neutral. They

would not cost extra money. All they had to do was accept them. You did

not get an agreement. They were arrogant and used a petition to bin

them. You agreed and you tried to unpack it. The bill that was

produced was flawed. It fell short. You have caused the problems. We are

entitled to protect the vulnerable in our society. We will continue to

do that. Your absence of and down has minister harms the Welsh

service. Why do we need a minister at all? -- health service. The

biggest thing that has harmed the health service in the last couple of

years is losing money... Are you saying money is taken out of the

health service? How much? We have lost 200 million because of welfare

reform bill stop it could be going into front-line health, employment,

learning, jobs will stop other departments as well. Helping people

that of honourable, that is what you have been doing by not living up to

your responsible Aziz. -- not helping the vulnerable. Can a deal

be done in ten days? It is compounded by the tax credit and all

of the rest of it and that is a different story. There are

honourable and poor in the society and it has hammered them. Do you

think it can be done? Whether it is a sustainable deal, that remains to

be seen. It can be done. Can you win? I am quite confident I can win.

I have been around the country and the majority, the members, delegates

in the party are supporting me. The BBC understands Seamus Mallon will

tomorrow endorse your opponent. I will wait and see. I am not aware of

that. Well, we are aware of that. Is that damaging for you? I want to do

that job. He is a member of the party and entitled to his opinion.

We have 300 other odd delegates without -- with opinions. Everybody

that has ever held a ministerial position is backing your opponent.

That is not true. How can you continue to lead when so many senior

members of the party... I have worked and renewed the party and

brought in 40% of the party, new councillors in the last 18 months

and I go forward into the election with 60% of delegates knew. 50% of

the SDLP has turned around, some of them four years ago. A new party is

evolving and it is quite normal. I will work and I will continue and do

the job I was elected to do... Thank you.

They were very scathing about you not having respect for her position

and not rescheduling an appointment and we have a damning reports today.

I do not think it is fair criticism. I could not meet her. She

said she did not reschedule. She has left her job today. It would have

been very difficult to arrange it at such short notice. I know it is very

important. Thousands of people in Northern Ireland are depending on

this. I am disappointed in the report that the Commissioner

launched today. I did not receive it until half past four and yet the BBC

at it from yesterday. I think that is bad form and unprofessional but I

will look at the content. It will feed into the review... Thanks Harry

much indeed. Now, that stand-off within unionism

that we've just been talking about really became a battle

when the DUP last week The First Minister, Peter Robinson,

said the report on paramilitaries confirmed that the

parties in government were committed to peaceful means, but controversy

continues over the report's comments So how will the DUP strategy

be viewed by the electorate? Our Political Correspondent Stephen

Walker has been investigating. The American President Ronald Reagan

famously said in politics, if you In recent weeks, the DUP have

been doing a lot of explaining. And after last week's

paramilitary report, why has the Peter Gibson is married

with two children. His world changed

in October 1993 when In 1998, Peter Gibson voted no to

the Good Friday Agreement and, since then, he has backed the DUP.

Now he can't understand why they They like power, so I think they

will always find wriggle room to They have sold out

their ideals what they promised Anything that will keep them

in power, they will go with. After recent news, the publication

of the report into paramilitary Some suggest that, within the DUP,

there is confusion I think there is much head

scratching and bewilderment within the DUP as to why they have gone

back into the Executive on the basis of a report which suggests

the Provisional IRA is not only I think this is a gift for the

Ulster Unionist Party ,which has The Ulster Unionist Party has said

we are out of the Executive and we are staying out until we get

clearance on this matter. The issue of guns

and government is not new. Back in 1999,

David Trimble faced much opposition when he agreed to form an Executive

without IRA decommissioning. May God forgive them for what

they have just done to Ulster. May God forgive them,

because I won't and neither will May God forgive them

for what they have done. 17 years on, Ruth Patterson is now

a DUP councillor. Today, it is not the UUP she is

critical of, but her own party. She thinks the decision of DUP

ministers to resign and then be reappointed made

Stormont a laughing stock. Some

of the comments that I have received from my own constituents from

relatives from people up round the But the DUP leadership insist that,

without rolling resignations, I was one of the people that said it

was very messy, it was not pretty. But as I said, we did not

want to be in that position. We found ourselves in that position,

because of events that happened and We believe we did take the right way

forward now we are dealing with the big issues in front of us

which are paramilitary issues. Ruth Patterson also says that her

party was wrong to return to It has shocked me to the core,

in fact, that my political party has gone back

into government with Sinn Fein. You know, we did hound David Trimble

on those exact same issues and I can remember way back in 2000,

2001, when I was working for Peter Robinson, and we went down

and had a protest outside Ulster actually do that if we ourselves are

prepared to go into government. But Arlene Foster argues that

the DUP called it right. We believe it was the right

decision. We are working behind our desks again. Nobody wanted to be in

that position. We had to take that decision because of what had

happened and the arrest of a senior member of Sinn Fein at a time when

we were told the leadership were committed to exclusively peaceful

means. Ruth Patterson insists her

view is shared by others. My people my loyalist protestant

people are crying out like babes in the wilderness

for leadership and honesty. Certainly, at this moment in time,

it is a conscience issue. But I will be thinking long

and hard about my future about What makes Ruth Patterson's comments

worth noting is the fact that people like her rarely

criticise the party in public. I have spoken to a number of

DUP MLAs who admit that the party has taken some flak

in recent weeks and may have even But they all insist their tactics

of recent weeks were necessary to The political landscape has changed

since The Good Friday Agreement But 17 years on, the issue of guns

and government hasn't gone away. # what goes around comes back

around. The stalemate over welfare reform

may have grabbed the headlines, but the lack of agreement over plans

to deal with the past were also back Sinn Fein said they could not sign

up to proposed legislation on legacy issues having met victims

groups who said the government had rolled back on commitments made

in the Stormont House Agreement. I'm joined now by former vice

chairman of the policing board Denis Bradley and Professor John

Brewer from Queens University. This idea of the Secretary of State

having a final say and using national security as a reason for

not disclosing sensitive information, it has become a major

issue. How big do you think it is? I think it is massive. I do not think

the two concept can be on one page. I do not think it will work. If I

advised of the British government at the moment I would advise them to

take it off the page. It is utterly unnecessary. For individuals and the

broader community, the Convention of human rights, the European

Convention, there is a lot of protection and no need to have the

words national security on the table. It creates all kinds of

suspicion and bad feeling. There is a possibility of making it

unworkable and some good work is being done and it is making it

unworkable and I do not understand why they are allowing this to fester

and I cannot understand... Everybody else is targeting red lines and I am

not sure that this is a red line. Was it not in the Stormont House

Agreement? That agreement was not a finished

document and not a finished concept. But in terms of broad principles? I

think the people fighting this have been fighting it for years, probably

the SDLP, because the SDLP have the right in my opinion, not just them

but particularly then, to say to the British and Irish government and

Sinn Fein and everybody else that, you cannot solve the past by

actually excluding for making one of the groups more important than the

other and you can't make the British government more important than,

say, the nationalist Unionist people, all are partners in

responsibility and in the responsibility to bring this to a

conclusion and get it to a place where some healing can take place.

John Brewer, how much of an issue is this likely to be for Unionists? I

suspect a large issue for the Unionists, but I have to say that

I've used the metaphor for Northern Ireland's peace process that we are

driving the peace process forward by looking only in the rear-view

mirror. I think we need to start to set the past in the context of the

future and one of the things that is most important... But is that not

difficult for people, the crux of the issue is so many things

unresolved that we can't move forward until they are resolved? I

think the foundation of any shared future, for us to begin to learn to

live together, is that the future must be based on truth and justice.

No justice, for me, has to be blind. -- now, justice for me. One either

justice is no basis for the future by that, I mean one party in command

of what is disclosed and what is revealed. I believe that, if truth

recovery process is to be genuine, it needs to meet the obligation of

victims. If it is to be the foundation of a shared future, I

think everybody has to engage in acknowledgement, that includes Sinn

Fein, but also includes the government. Denis Bradley, how do

you think this will play out? The British government has to accept

they cannot have this and there are well-established roots, through the

judiciary, to make decisions about whether something is in the interest

of national security or not? I don't think anything should be in the

interests of national security, in the interests of the rights and the

welfare of people, that is wholly different and contained within the

convention, the European Convention, and within natural law. And

therefore I cannot understand when national security is put on the

table, I think the British will roll back on this, people have to, the

Irish government should play an active part in the sense they should

help them to roll back on this, and I have been one of the people in

Northern Ireland who have seen what is coming out around national

security and there's nothing there that is not already within the

imagination of the people of Northern Ireland, and unionism has

nothing to fear from it, and brought nationalism nor republicanism. If it

comes on the table formally, it will actually be a healing process and

there is no need, apart from looking after the rights of individuals,

there is no need to hide the truth. John Brewer, obviously Republicans

will have to be as open in terms of disclosing sensitive that you feel?

Absolutely! The moral thrust of Jerry Kelly's comments I think we'd

be reinforced and Sinn Fein were to engage in the same of sort

acknowledgement that they are requiring of the British government,

clearly, but coming back to my point, no one is the arbiter of the

future, it is owned by everybody, and you cannot have one person, one

party, one constituency, in control of what justice and truth means.

John Brewer and Denis Bradley, thank you both very much indeed.

With just days, apparently, to save Stormont,

it makes the politicians sound a bit James Bond -

something they'd no doubt love to hear

and a theme we'll be developing in a few minutes.

But first, let's go to our very own Bond icons Blofeld

and Goldfinger in Commentators' Corner Alex Kane and aul McFadden.

and Goldfinger in Commentators' Corner Alex Kane and Paul McFadden.

So, Alex, will ideally be done? Look into the crystal ball. I looked into

that and they need this deal. It does not matter what the DUP, SDLP,

the Alliance Party says, they are not necessary for this deal, if the

Sinn Fein and DUP are up for this, the deal will be done. Tax credits

will be tied in, money will be made available. Theresa Villiers has not

been ruling out playing about with money. They are up for it. It will

be done. Paul McFadden, in terms of Unionism, where does this leave Mike

Nesbitt? To use his own line, and appropriated by Peter Robinson

today, he may find himself on the wrong side of history, but an

election have been through next year, and it will be interesting

houses hearty does in terms of this stands on what he calls a principled

issue. Talking about the likelihood of a deal, and I believe with

Alastair McDonnell that one is in the offing, but there could be

something on the issue of welfare reform. Paramilitaries, I am not

sure how that will find out. That seems to have gone to the side.

Maybe tax credits will give them some cover? I don't know. Sinn Fein

has its eye on political power in the south and forcing some Alliance

with anti-austerity parties in the Republic. I wonder if events in the

North will influence that. I guess it might be difficult. -- legacy

might be difficult. This is about saving Stormont for the DUP and Sinn

Fein, and Rita Robinson looked fed up and angry with Nesbitt. -- and

Peter Robinson. This was like David Trimble talking about people

whingeing on the sidelines with no alternatives. It is extraordinary,

and Robinson is clearly, baby because of Halloween, he is spooked

by Mike Nesbitt, because Mike Nesbitt has caught those people who

may be thinking about switching back from the DUP. I don't think the

British government is particularly keen to have to step in into the

affair is here in the North. Would it help if they implemented welfare

reform? I don't think so, it may be disastrous. That's almost as the end

of the process as far as nationalist and republican parties would be

concerned and would be problematic. Pursuing the James Bond thing, not

talking about one spectre, but two spectres at the feast, the Ulster

Unionist Party and Sinn Fein, wondering why they did not appeared

on the programme. They turned down the invitation. Having complained

that the DUP and Sinn Fein were doing side deals and they would stay

in talks to fight their corner and, given the chance to fight their

corner, they chose not to do that. I find that order. Alastair McDonnell

has brushed off Seamus Mallon's support for Colum Eastwood. Not

surprising, anyone would have this sense that Seamus Mallon was moving

away from Alastair McDonnell, but if the BBC is right, he is moving in

the direction of Colum Eastwood, but a number of heavy hitters in the

SDLP have stood up against him. He has done a lot to rejuvenate the

SDLP, and very difficult to lead his party into the next election given

the criticism. Someone used the comparison that Margaret Thatcher

won the leadership vote but lost the confidence of the party, will it be

difficult for him to continue to lead? My view is his opponents would

have a field day with criticisms. It is very difficult. It is worth

saying that a lot of people backing Colum Eastwood are not natural

supporters of them, they are just against Alastair McDonnell, and

ironic that the old guard back you, the old people of the party backing

this young fellow, but he needs young people backing him, because if

you has Seamus Mallon, people will think they are in the background

helping, just as bad an image as Alastair McDonnell trying to escape

it, but him saying he is trying to rejuvenate the party... But I am

disappointed that you did not where it your tuxedos tonight.

That's it from The View for this week.

Mark will be back for Sunday Politics at 11.35 here on BBC One.

And talking of returning super stars, a certain movie icon was

# I wish I was James Bond just for the day... #