12/11/2015 The View

On the eve of voting in the SDLP leadership contest,

we'll hear from Alasdair McDonnell and Colum Eastwood on steering

Tonight, the big political bruiser of the SDLP is about to step

He needs the time to finish the work he has started. It is losing us

votes. Alasdair McDonnell is live

in the studio tonight, less than 24 hours before

the poll opens on his leadership. His challenger, Colum Eastwood,

is in the north-west for us. Will the battle for votes go

down to the wire? Also tonight,

that controversy over the unplanned rendition of the national anthem

at a Stormont Remembrance ceremony. I'll be talking to

the man who struck the first note. And tuning up for us

in Commentators' Corner this week are Patricia MacBride and

Newton Emerson. All parties have their squabbles,

but for quite some time now, the SDLP and in-fighting have been

synonymous. Against a background of dire

predictions for next May's Assembly election, a direct challenge has

been launched against the current We'll hear from the Foyle MLA,

Colum Eastwood, on why he thinks he But before that, in the first

of two films about the party, Gareth Gordon looks at how McDonnell

loyalists are circling the wagons. From the off, Alasdair McDonnell did

not appear to relish his time in the spotlight. Could somebody turn off

the lights, please? As far as Alasdair McDonnell and his

supporters are concerned, he was elected to do a job and that job is

not finished. A renewal does not happen overnight. When he took his

mandate in 2011, he put together a plan to rebuild. He needed to

rebuild at grassroots, branches, bring new people forward. In the

election in 2014, we saw those new candidates coming forward and

particular we saw women. The divisions in the SDLP have if

anything got worse and nowhere are they as bad as here. Daniel has

become a poster boy for Alasdair McDonnell's new brand of SDLP.

Plucked from obscure at you, the 27-year-old will be the party's only

candidate in West Tyrone. There is a mixed range of views on the party

and in West Tyrone, the majority of the membership which has troubled in

the last four years in the constituency has voted for me as the

sole candidate. There may be a change at a later date. We will deal

with that then. I think it is the wrong time for the leadership

challenge but regardless of the result this weekend, I will be

working tightly with the leader to ensure the best result is delivered

for the constituency. A leaked internal report says the SDLP could

lose up to five assembly seats. Daniel's message is, do not panic.

He has followed through with a lot of the changes he has promised. If

he is about the time to do that beyond the weekend, we will see a

lot of benefits. This constituency, we have all seen benefits of the

work he has put in. We have seen growth and increases. Alasdair

McDonnell's supporters say that should he win on Saturday, he

himself will know when it is time to go. He is not going to hold on

forever. He realises that. He will go to plot his exit in time. Can he

meant the differences with people like Mark Durkan? I do not know

whether it is all to do with them. They have mending to do with him.

Councillor Declan Boyle, a McDonnell loyalist, putting it up

And Colum Eastwood joins me now from our Foyle studio.

Let us start with the last thought from Declan Boyle. You have split

the party down the middle in a crucial talk and six months before

the assembly election. How do you justify it? We are having a

leadership election, we are Democratic party and we are having a

democratic discussion about the future of the party and the country.

I have run a very positive campaign, I have read up the party and my

colleagues and I intend to do that for the rest of the week. What needs

to happen is we need to set out a positive vision for the future of

the country and we need to be seen as leaders within it and we need to

go forward as a united party after Saturday. I think we can do it and

we have had a very positive campaign and we have treated each other

properly and we can go forward together after this. You do not bid

up your party by trying to knock down your leader? -- big up. We had

an opinion poll last week telling us we were on 10.8%. If that is true,

we are in a very serious situation. I viewed it as important enough to

put my hat in the ring or others put my hat in the ring and I responded

to the call because it would be reckless for us not to take up the

challenge and this into what the public are saying, for us not to try

to change and show the public we are prepared to. We have an important

election coming up in May and I want to see us doing better than the

opinion polls have suggested. That sounds fine, it is a bit like

motherhood and apple pie, nobody could disagree, but we cannot judge

you on your record because you do not have one. Well, if you ask

people in my constituency, they will say I have a strong record of

representing this place. I have been a party member since my teens. I

have led the city in very important defence. I have a lot of experience

in the SDLP. A lot of experience representing the people who vote for

us -- very important events. We have to understand what the public are

saying. Anybody who has been canvassing for the SDLP in the last

couple of elections will tell you they want to see us changing and

moving forward and more importantly setting out a vision. You are 32,

you have been in the assembly for the past four years, never a

minister, never chaired a Stormont committee, never had any real

responsibility for anything so far. How are you seriously qualified to

lead the SDLP? The membership and the party supporters think I am

qualified to lead the SDLP. You will know that on Saturday. Yes, with the

soundings we are getting, I think people are rallying to the call.

People are not interested in internal party discussions, they are

interested in what we will do for the public. For too long we have

talked about past achievements and great they have been but we need to

talk about the future, the next 20 years. We need to tell people where

we want Northern Ireland and Ireland going. It is important the SDLP

shows leadership and a welcome indicated vision. It is very

important the leader of a party are significant as the SDLP demonstrate

sound political judgment. I do not want to go into the details but I

wonder if you could talk about the judgment you showed when you carried

the coffin of an ILO Eamon you described as a close friend -- INLA.

Your critics thought it demonstrated a distinct lack of sound political

judgment. My critics think a lot of things. I knew Seamus Coyle very

well. I was there when he was dying and I wanted to show respect for him

and his family. In my community, we go to funerals and if we are asked,

we carry coffins. The one regret I have is that his family were put

through the mill when it was rehearsed over and over again in the

media. I think I did the right thing and I think we have to reach out

across political divides. I did not agree with his politics, but he was

on a journey as well. He did not end up as Deputy First Minister but he

was on a journey. On this very programme two years ago exactly, you

offered me a bet that the SDLP's Euro candidate Alex Attwood would

win a seat. He did not and in fact it was the worst performance by an

SDLP candidate in Europe. You got that pretty catastrophically wrong.

I was on the show to talk about a leaked report into the SDLPgoing

forward. My job was to represent the party, to be loyal to the party and

to what people were saying. I make no apologies whatsoever for

projecting a positive image of the party and for supporting my leader.

We had a difficult election, yes. We have had many difficult elections.

The interesting thing is that also on the programme you told me

Alasdair McDonnell, the party leader then, he had your full backing. You

said you were confident he would lead you after the 2014 elections

and you had no concerns about the leadership team and I quote, he has

our full confidence, we will back him to the hilt. What has changed?

We have had a couple of very bad elections and the public have told

us we need to change. People want to support the SDLP because people know

that when they are strong, the politics in this place does well. I

have recognised and I think the party has recognised things are not

going right, we have an election coming up which is very important

and people want to see a change. That is why I am stepping forward.

It is Beverley normal for a Democratic party to have a

leadership discussion. -- perfectly normal. You could fail to win and

weaken your leader and the party could suffer further at the polls

and you would be blamed by many in the party. Very big responsibility

to have on your young shoulders. It would have been easier for me to

ignore what the public and membership were saying and the

supporters. It would have been very easy for me to sit back. My

constituency is doing very well. We will take three seats in Foyle in

the next election. I do not need to do this. It would have been reckless

for me to sit on my hands when the public tell us that they want to see

change. It needs to happen. That is why I have put myself forward. I

want to lead the SDLP. I think it is an act of leadership in doing this.

314 collectors over the weekend, you need 158 to win, are you confident

you can get that? I am. I have had a fantastic response right across the

North and when you have people like Seamus Mallon backing me, the

delegates should listen to his judgment because we have always

trusted him. I am confident I can win, I take nothing for granted, I

am not finished campaigning yet. It will be a very good result on

Saturday. If you win, how do you begin the job of uniting the party

around you? It is a fair bet that a significant rump of the party will

around you? It is a fair bet that a have backed Alasdair McDonnell. A

huge challenge. People will vote for who they want to. After that, we

have to unite around a vision for the country and a set of goals for

the party and I think I can do that. I am not divisive, I am not involved

in arguments and difficulties. I want a positive vision for the

future of Ireland and I think the party will rally around that. That

is the most important thing, a positive vision for the future

communicated well to our supporters. That is what people want

and they will get it from me. We will see what they say on Saturday

when the numbers are crunched. Thank you. I will put some of those points

to Alasdair McDonnell in a moment. He's asked for time to show that

his re-organising of the party will bear fruit - but many members say

their patience has run out. Here's Gareth Gordon again. Gerard

is 22 and a perfect example, surely of what is wanted for the SDLP.

Except, he desperately wants Collum Eastwood to do the job instead.

He has said, let me step up to the plate, given us the vision to

progress nationalism. He is a clear communicator. We cannot afford them

in a china shop approach. -- the bull in a china shop.

That is a reference to McDonnell. If this was a private company

questions would have been asked about the leadership. And an

opportunity given to turn it around. That has happened over the last

number of years but the results are declining. You cannot say that,

against a background declining results, work is not finished.

People on the ground are asking, what is the end point? If the

decline continues, if the work is unfinished, then we are undergoing

one-way, and that is towards some form of oblivion.

In a troubled West Tyrone constituency support is divided

between the incumbent and the challenger.

He is young, freshfaced, but his experience. He will lead the party

from Stormont, which is where I believe it should be led from. It is

a process of renewal, as well as bringing young and dynamic people

in, this is a chance to let Collum Eastwood in, because she is young

and dynamic, with experience. Gerald says it is not just McDonnell

who will need to move aside. He is that generation below. It

would be a watershed moment. Those just -- those people cannot come

back. If that is the case then people just have to get on with it.

It sounds simple, which is exactly what it won't be. Alistair

McDonnell, the problem is I see it is your critics will not wait for a

third, possibly fatal set of results next May. It is time to go.

It is not. I was elected by the membership and 2011, by the

grassroots, to renew the party. You do not throw people overboard, you

do not create change overnight. I have worked that change, discussions

have run through the party, and I have brought change in through 2014,

through the council elections, I worked my socks off. Recruiting new

candidates, bringing people into the party.

It is not overnight, with respect. You have had years already, and in

that time the party has slipped in each and every election it has

fought. That is not the mark of a good leader.

The party has held its 100,000 votes with the exception of the European

election... The European election was the worst

result ever for an SDLP candidate. I rest the case that...

In the local government elections you said win 80 seat, you won 66.

I said that anything above 70 would be a big game. It is quite normal to

have an ambition... Let's talk about the third result.

Your personal result, down 16%. You have the distinction now being the

Westminster MP with the lowest ever winning proportion, just 24.5%.

IM very proud of my record in south Belfast, a unionist constituency. I

took it once, they said it was a fluke. Twice, they said, he done it

again, three times, they said, it is impossible. I did it by knocking

doors and working with people. The vote was down, quite simply, because

there was a very, very aggressive campaign against me, but number two,

the vote in the previous election... So you don't have to reflect an

electoral shortcomings? Those are the very reason I try to

change the party. We have a radical new project which will be launched

in a few weeks to renew the party from the top to bottom and I will

see that processed through. You have had three bad election

results during your leadership. Let's look to the future...

Sorry, I must take you back. Those results were relatively static. The

vote was around 100,000 votes. That is the position. I intend to raise

it. As far as I am concerned, results have what and out, but the

decline is in the past. Let's look at the internal party

poll, you stand to use five assembly seats, dropping to single figures.

You have had for years to fix it, three bad election results, the

future does not look any better. In any decent political party, after

an election, there is an assessment. We did an assessment. Yes, we

identified five vulnerable seats. And five possible extra winning

seats. That is the position we are in. It was obviously leaked.

Partially leaked. The bad news was leaked. We have plenty of options in

places like Fermanagh... But here is the difficulty...

We will pick up seats in the assembly next May.

It is not what the figures suggest. But a separate point. Big names in

your party have said that it is time for you to go. Mark Duggan, Breeze

Rogers, among them. It is not a ringing endorsement of your

leadership, is it? These were powerful people 20 years

ago but I am not looking back 20 years, I am looking forward to

create a party that will be here in 20 years' time, that will...

They are grandees who can judge you on your success, they have invested

huge amounts of time and effort into the SDLP and don't think you are

doing a good job. They are entitled to their

opinion... But you will not take it on board?

What I am being accused of being too soft. But I should be more ruthless

and all the rest. I should accept that. That may be a fault. But I

have worked very hard... What should you have done that you

did not? Concentrated on discipline... Within

your party? You should have chucked people out?

I don't believe in that. I think that a political party should be a

big tent... Should you have thrown out Collum

Eastwood? Certainly not. There is a big

future, very much part of my plan to rebuild the party.

He might be your party leader on Saturday afternoon.

I don't think that the majority in the party don't so but he's still a

bright young man with a great future, the timing is wrong, quite

simply, I see him as leadership potential in a year or two

down-the-line... So you think you will finish within

a year? I did not say that.

You said he might leader in year's time?

Or in two years, or three years... But you don't know that. You believe

it, but you don't know it to be a fact.

With all due respect I have spent a lifetime counting votes.

We can only do that when they have been cast and the polls do not open

until tomorrow so you cannot have counted them yet.

I have had lots of conversations with people across the party and I'm

quite confident the votes will be my favour.

Does it surprise you to hear that Collum Eastwood's team is also very

confident? They might not be as good as

counting as I am. Saturday will tell you.

It will tell us all. Let me pick up on your staunchest supporter, Declan

Boyle, something he said, touching on what you just said, but if you

are elected on Saturday, you will begin to plot your exit as leader,

perhaps from the beginning of next week. That is what he said, you just

heard it. So if I understand correctly, you want to be elected as

leader, to begin the process of standing down?

I want to finish the renewal process I have worked through. To finish the

process of selecting a new range of candidates. Two thirds of our

assembly candidates standing will be new.

How long will you continue as leader?

Until the job is completed? When will that be.

If it is two years, great, 18 months, great, I don't know. The

party has to be put back on its feet...

Some people might think that the person to do that is frankly not you

but is Collum Eastwood. I sure they are plenty others think

I have done a good job and should continue to do it and that is what

they are telling me. If Collum Eastwood is successful,

will you back him as leader of SDLP? Of course I will. And I will be

carving out a key role for him, and the people that support him, to

insure that the party goes from strength to strength. I, in my

leadership, my style of leadership, I try to spot talent. I tried to

create space. I have mentored dozens of young people in the SDLP. People

talk, you know, I could go on at length, give you a buzz in the names

of people that have come through under my leadership...

We cannot do that because we don't have time. I just want a final

thought on the ongoing talks. Tomorrow's ministerial Council has

been postponed, there is speculation that there could possibly the signs

of a deal signed tomorrow. What is your assessment of where we are,

nearing the end game? The talks have been difficult. I do

not want to reveal trade secrets. Everybody realises the talks up into

the gut. We have worked very hard. We have the process. All of the

parties have been coy, have not contributed significantly, they have

waited to say what we were saying or doing, we have driven the process,

we will stand by victims and survivors to the utmost degree, we

want rid of paramilitaries and we want rid of the Mafia like control

of community is going with it and we want an honest and decent welfare

system protecting the vulnerable. If you are presented with a

documentary tomorrow, by the Secretary of State, take it or leave

it basis, what would you do? We're not going for that basis, we

need a period of time to read the document and see what is in it, to

test it against the needs of victims and survivors. We are not... This

campaign, we are looking for a 5 party deal. Five parties, to

governments, signing up to a sustainable deal, so we are not here

next June. So if it is take it or leave it, you

leave it? My sense is that is unless it is a

brilliant deal, take it or leave it will be an ambush. We must be

sharing because there are five parties involved in this, and two

governments. Thank you very much. Now, a childish stunt,

or a fitting way to end a service to One thing's for certain,

controversy over Remembrance here The ceremony ended with this

impromptu rendition of the national anthem. The SDLP said it should not

have happened, the Ulster Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt, said the

singing of the anthem was not part of the author of service and he

dismissed it as a stunt. In my opinion it should be part of

the ceremony, but everybody should know. It should be in the running

order of the ceremony. It is not good that people feel ambush and

embarrassed. I would not like that to happen to me. As we work through

this decade or centenary is there should be no surprises.

They should appreciate the fact we were there, people of all

backgrounds at that ceremony this morning. I welcome the fact that

they came to me afterwards, and spoke of the disappointment and

their anger. And I'm joined

by the man who started it - the TUV press officer, Sammy

Morrison - and by the Independent You are both welcome. Sammy

Morrison, your critics call it a childish, undergraduate, adolescent

stunt. Is there not an illness of truth in that?

Absolutely not. I did what is done every other year. I don't see why

the national anthem was dropped. It is hard to escape the conclusion

that it was dropped for the single reason that the Army, or the party

that is linked to the Army Council of the IRA was involved in the

commemoration. That party has never apologised for its actions during

the trouble, particularly Enniskillen 1987, when they murdered

and people for the crime of attending a remembrance ceremony.

Sinn Fein do not accept your assessment of their links with the

IRA Army Council, but we will not dwell on it. The national anthem is

not necessarily part of a remembrance ceremony, according to

the British Legion, who gave us a statement today. Why did you choose

to make it an issue? You may have a statement from the

British Legion, but I wonder if you have a copy of the order of service

from previous years? Because every year the national anthem was

sung... I understand that, but this was the

first time, for example, that the ceremony was led by a Sinn Fein

presiding officer. Is it not progress to see a speaker from Sinn

Fein leading the service, is not progress to see a Sinn Fein Deputy

First Minister taking part in the service, standing at front,

alongside the Secretary of State? No, not unless Sinn Fein will

confess to their role in actions like Enniskillen. I do not think we

would expect the Jews who suffered as a result of the Holocaust to

welcome the Nazis to the services remembrance for the whole cost. Why

should we accept a party linked to the IRA at remembrance services went

a few years ago they were blowing people up for going to remember and

services? Your critics would say it does not

bear scrutiny. I appointed the murder of Mary Travers as a special

adviser in her office. You can directly link that to Enniskillen? I

can link it to Enniskillen. I would prefer it if you did not on live

television. You are a fellow unionist, where did Sammy Morrison

get it wrong? The important thing about this and as we move through

this decade is that we reflect and not only build up this idea of a

shared history, shared sacrifice, 210,000 Irish men, unionist,

nationalist, they served in the great War 100 years ago. It is

getting to that point that we can do it and do it in a shared space that

is Parliament buildings, that is something that we have worked hard

to do. As the Speakers mentioned, they are all working together to do

that, it was a respectful service. What was your experience? You

attended it. I will standing beside two members of Sinn Fein in the

service. -- I was. There was Bible reading, that act of remembrance,

Rees laying. That was important that we were doing that -- wreath. Were

you surprised when Sammy Morrison started to sing the national anthem?

I was surprised it started, yes. What did you do? I stood in

respectful silence for the national anthem. But I do not think it was

appropriate at that time. When we use these symbols, our national

anthem, our national flag, or the symbol of the poppy that is about

sacrifice and the act of remembrance, when we use that to

make others feel uncomfortable, that is the wrong reason to use it. A

fellow unionist who perhaps agrees with you on a lot in terms of wider

politics. He thinks you got it badly wrong. I respect his view on that.

The question I would put to him is how many acts of remembrance has he

attended over this remembrance period and how many times has the

national anthem been omitted? I would say it was pretty rare. It was

a very specific act of remembrance at Stormont were clearly there was a

political attempt at creating a shared space. Why should you

politicise remembrance? Why should you politicise remembrance? That is

exactly the question. I'm attempting to make you think about that

question. You have politicised it by singing the national anthem. That

act of omitting the national anthem which was included every other year

was a politicisation of that event. There is a view that is... An

important piece of politics was happening, at a very difficult time

in Northern Ireland's political history, and effort was made to try

to create a positive move and a shared space. You politicised it in

a negative way doing what you did. You have conceded it was

politicised. By the omission of the anthem. That was a political

decision. I do not think I did. Let us hear what John McCallister

thinks. Is that right? When you go and try to reach out to people and

do that shared act of remembrance about a shared sacrifice, in an

attempt to build a shared future for society, I thought it was good to

see the Deputy First Minister there and other Sinn Fein and nationalist

members, when you do that, you are using the national anthem as a

political weapon to make people feel uncomfortable. That is wrong. In a

word, would you do the same thing again, if the same situation

prevails? Absolutely, because of Enniskillen. We should not be making

concessions to Sinn Fein to accommodate a party responsible for

that act. We will leave it there. Let's hear if tonight's commentators

are in perfect harmony. Newton Emerson and Patricia MacBride

are doing the honours Good evening. Welcome. Let us talk

about the SDLP leadership battle. We heard from both contenders. The

incumbent and the challenger. Columnist would first. What did you

make of his pitch? He was talking about judging him by what he does

but he is not specific about what he would do as leader, as near as

anyone can assess, he would move the party to be slightly more

nationalist and slightly more left wing. I do not see how it would

work. He cannot... When you move a party and to the same pitch, as we

saw with the DUP and the UUP, they play silly games with each other. We

saw that with Sinn Fein and the fuss over welfare reform. How difficult

is it for the 314 voters on Friday and Saturday to judge what: Eastwood

stands for when he has so little experience? You look at the SDLP

leadership contest and you think it is like two balls meant fighting

over a comb. What is the point? What is the endgame? -- bald men. The

renewal project, what is the objective of the party? There is no

clear strategy. An illustration of that last week when we saw Claire

asked to give a 62nd pitchfork a united Ireland and she could not do

it because there is no clear pitch about what their position is on a

whole range of issues -- 62 second pitch for the party. It will go from

the party of civil rights, where is it going in the future? The seeds

could go very easily. Does Alistair McGowan of deserve more time for the

party renewal? He was able to set out a credible claim to renew the

party. He has not done it. He has renewed structures internally but he

has caused vision. That is a significant point. The results are

not there and the internal party projections are not good. They are

not. You have seen the Belfast-dairy split in the SDLP and an urban and

rural split. You have very strong constituency associations in rural

areas but it is not translating into central support so they still need

to renew the party if they will not lose the seats they are ready have.

A quick word about talks, we have discussed it at this stage every

week for about the past six or eight weeks. The possible to your

agreement tomorrow is being talked up, maybe tomorrow, maybe Saturday,

interesting comments from Charlie Flanagan, do you see it building up?

I do not think they can sign an agreement on Friday the 13th. This

agreement was in fact done two months ago and an outline two years

ago, it is not number two, it is three. It is no longer necessary for

all of the executives to agree to it. The SDLP walked out Stormont

House and no one seemed to care. The UUP is generally assumed it will not

sign up. We are moving to a two party system. The question is, will

it be a make do and mend agreement or a genuine attempt at a new

beginning? We are picking up that the wife of the former SDLP leader

is backing: Eastwood for the leadership of the party. No

surprise. Interesting to hear. That is it from The View for this week.

There's no Sunday Politics this weekend, but we will have live

coverage of the SDLP conference from 12 noon on Saturday on BBC Two.

Just before we go, our politicians often come in for criticism for not

getting along with each other, but with talks of a deal imminent, we've

noticed that some relationships across the chamber might be thawing.

It has nothing personal. We have grown very friendly. I don't know

how. Over this last months. Whether it was made in this House or

outside, we will find an ally. I am happy to support everything the

Minister has said. I enjoyed the Minister's opening remarks. That is

not to say that I would not normally enjoy them, but I enjoyed them on

this occasion. I am glad I have the opportunity of knowing Emma beyond

the assembly and have a good working relationship with her. Order,

please. Could I bring the cosy little debate to the end?

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