10/12/2015 The View

"Determined to deliver agreement on dealing with the past."

Tonight on The View, the Secretary of State sets out why

she believes the outstanding legacy issues will be resolved.

Amid so much anger from families accusing her of failing them,

why does Theresa Villiers think she has a solution

to the national security controversy?

It is crystal clear the High Court is independent of government. As any

secretary of state was trying to cover up the truth, that would be

overturned by the High Court. -- if any secretary of state.

As the DUP gets set to back its first woman leader,

we look at how the former Ulster Unionist, Arlene Foster,

It's been a year when Stormont teetered on the brink -

there's certainly been a lot of talking and,

for some, a lot of walking in and out.

With the Fresh Start deal done, we look back at the highs and lows

And they didn't come from the East, but we've got three wise

Newton Emerson, May Blood and Eamonn McCann.

One, Arlene Foster's unstoppable rise to the DUP leadership,

And, two, the seemingly intractable deadlock over dealing with the past.

On Tuesday, BBC's Spotlight programme heard from victims'

families demanding the Government should open its files.

Today, a full page ad in the Irish News from two victims'

groups accusing the Government of failing to address the legacy

Meanwhile, the DUP and Sinn Fein battled it out on the

When I spoke to Theresa Villiers earlier, I asked her to explain why

she thinks agreement is "not a million miles away?"

Well, I think we are closer than we have been before to getting

resolution on these questions. I mean, the Stormont house agreement

was a real breakthrough to build that degree of consensus for the new

bodies contained in it. Yes, implementation is difficult and

there are still points to be resolved, but many of the

implementation point I think we did put together some consensus in this

latest round of talks, so I am going to be working hard to see if we can

close the gaps on the last few issues that must be resolved. Sinn

Fein's position doesn't appear to echo your optimism. They say

progress cannot be made at the moment. It was clear from the

Stormont house agreement that the government's commitment is to

disclose everything to the historical investigations unit so

that people doing the misconduct investigation have access to

everything. When it comes to onward disclosure in the public domain, we

have to take steps to ensure national security is not compromised

to make sure are not to risk. That is in the Stormont house agreement.

Every government around the world has to put certain constraints on

the information it can allow to go into the public domain because we

have a duty to protect the safety of our citizens. The PSNI and Sinn Fein

have said they would be happy to look at what can be issued and the

government could appeal. There is certain information which just

cannot go out into the public main. If it did, you would rightly be

challenging me about neglecting a duty of national security. Pothead

don't want to happen is for me one of my successors to be having to

give evidence at an inquest in the to explain why we let information

into the public domain which put lives at risk. I wonder why you

don't trust the director of the investigation to make that call. You

trust the police ombudsman to make similar calls. This is an extensive

duty of disclosure to the unit. We have to do... Know of all times,

surely it is important to be protecting national security. There

is a threat from dissident Republicans and Islamist. The charge

from your critics is you are still using the issue of national security

as frankly an excuse to cover up wrongful killings by agents of the

state. The methodology used 30 years ago are not the methodologies used

today to combat global terrorism. If there is misconduct in the handling

of agents, that should be properly investigated. That is why we are

proposing full disclosure for the -- for the historical investigations

unit. Every single document be considered to be relevant will be

disclosed, so they can conduct a rigorous investigation as to whether

there was wrongdoing by agents or their handlers. The judgment of the

director of that unit should be passed on to the families so they

know what happened to their loved ones. We want a comprehensive report

to go to the families, but we can't let information going to the public

domain if it puts lives at risk. Remember the case of Denis

Donaldson. This is a big issue for you. It was dealt with on a

programme on Tuesday night. Did you see it? I have not. I would like the

government to be engaged in disclosure in many contexts. Can you

see how the fact you have not yet watched the programme 48 hours after

broadcast and in advance of doing this interview, the families of

those who dies in these disputed circumstances might see that as a

reason to question your commitment to their concerns? Look, I fill in

respect the importance of the BBC series. My not having seen that

series doesn't mean that I'm not dealing on a daily basis with these

important issues. The mere fact there was one television programme

which I have not yet watched does not reflect on my commitment on

these issues. After all, I presided over talks that have delivered two

landmark agreements for Northern Ireland. The first of which got us

closer than ever before to a real solution on these legacy issues,

something which has alluded every single previous Secretary of State

that has tried to grapple with it. The programme reported on three

cases. I have watched it. One was about a man shot dead in 1972. The

army said he was a loyalist gunman. Three years later, a formal record

said he was an unwitting innocent victim. The Army didn't tell his

family despite that slow remaining over his name for 40 years. The fact

was only discovered by investigators by champs. On what grounds was that

information being withheld and how was that justifiable? As I have

said, the UK Government will disclose whether we are required to

by law. We are doing all they can to ensure we carry out the various

disclosure exercises were we were involved as rapidly and efficiently

as possible. I want to comment on that individual case. If the

families have concerns, I would be happy to meet them. And to pass on

their concerns directly to my colleagues in the Ministry of

Defence. I know you don't know about the case in detail, but that little

description of it, a relatively straightforward case, you can see

how the family would be so shocked to discover that the MoD knew three

years after his death that he was not a loyalist gunman and horrified

that information wasn't passed on to them? In simple terms, that does not

look good. I have been trying to deliver the systematic investigation

of hundreds of troubles related deaths through the institutions

proposed in the Stormont house agreement. As I have said, we are

closer than any previous government or previous executive to delivering

that, so families get the investigation they want to see

happen. The pointers this case is not the only one. I'm sure you have

seen the full page advertisement in the Irish News when representatives

of 150 bereaved families have accused politicians and the British

government of abject failure in addressing issues from the legacy

agreement. We have been working hard to deliver new bodies on a path.

Huge amount of work went into drafting legislation at the risk

bash at the request of the executive. The Stormont agreement

takes us further to setting up this than ever before. Richard Haass did

not succeed. We now have an effective blueprint for getting

answers that families won't. It will produce better outcomes for victims

and survivors, that is why I'm determined to deliver it. The

families believe that you think they don't deserve to know the truth

because the truth might be embarrassing for the British

government. That is not the case. The government has confronted the

truth, for example of what happened on Bloody Sunday. The Prime Minister

gave the frankest of apologies. We are determined to make sure the

people who are responsible for wondering are held to account. We

want to make sure that is done in a balanced and proportional way. There

are 150 examples that have not been dealt with. We are working to see

this setup. It is crucial it is set up so they look across the board at

all the deaths which occurred, so we don't have a disproportionate focus

on those where the state was was alleged to have been involved. The

programme on Tuesday said they wanted to talk to you to ask you one

question. I am now going to put that to you. It is this. Have you been

lobbied by MPs, by ex-military personnel, by others, not to soften

your position? Because they don't want to see veterans hung out to dry

as they might see it? I have not been lobbied by MPs on disclosure

issues. When there is a legal process under way... MPs have raised

the case regarding prosecutions of former military officers. That is

the case and it is on record on Hansard. What about ex-military

personnel. Have they lobbied you? I have not been spoken to by such

individuals. I believe an e-mail came in from a constituent referring

to these matters which has not yet been answered. One e-mail? Veterans

have been campaigning. We had a demonstration in Whitehall arguing

the case that information should not be made available and former

soldiers in Northern Ireland should not be prosecuted? In response to

the questions and representations on this, I emphasised that questions

regarding arrest and prosecution are matters independent of government.

Due process has to do the taken forward independently. A couple of

weeks ago, on this programme, you said you were intending to meet

victims groups to discuss these issues because they felt so upset

that legacy was not dealt with in the fresh start agreement. Have

those meetings happened? I have met the victims Commissioner and I'm

eating victims groups next week. Do you expect you might get quite a

tough time? Absolutely. I understand their frustration. We share our goal

of getting these new bodies setup. Frankly that requires compromise

all-round. We put on the table and appeal mechanism regarding national

security and we stretched ourselves because we want to do everything we

can to get these bodies setup. We want this process of determining

what material can be redacted on the grounds of national security to be

transparent. The way we propose to do that was to have a direct right

of appeal to the High Court so that families could be confident that the

veto power would never be misused. And it is absolutely crystal clear

that the High Court is independent of government and if any Secretary

of State was seeking, as you have alleged, to try to cover up the

truth, that would be overturned by the High Court.

You said at the start of the interview you are optimistic the

issue can be dealt with. You conceded you expect to get a tough

time - These are sensitive issues. Where is the optimism? I think

genuinely, dushg the talks, there are a lot of issues resolved. Yes,

we didn't resolve this question around national security. That's the

big issue. This is the sticking point. We discussed constructive

proposals. Sinn Fein put proposals the fable. We didn't think we could

make them work. We are not a million miles away from one another. Sinn

Fein acknowledged in their public statements governments have a duty

to protect nationalure. How do we produce a system that people can

have confidence that the national security veto is only being applied

in an appropriate and aproportionate way and not in a way which abuses

it? Who'd bet against that remaining

the outstanding issue With no-one else stepping

up to challenge her, Arlene Foster is set to be crowned

the new leader of her party this So what drives the former

Ulster Unionist and how will her leadership differ from that

of her predecessors? Joining me are the Newsletter's

political correspondent, the former editor of

the Impartial Reporter. Sam, did you see the day coming when

Arlene Foster would stand poised to take over the DUP? Yes, but I didn't

think it would be this time. I don't think - I think plenty of people

within the DUP thought this would not be her turn. She is clearly

young enough to have taken the job in 10 years' time perhaps having

served the time as Deputy Leader and First Minister it came as a shot

when Nigel Dodds dropped out this week. She has been groomed for great

things in the DUP right from the moment when she joined with Jeffrey

Donaldson. He was the star attraction, in some ways, when he

defected. It's Arlene Foster who stayed in the Assembly who realised

that is where the power lay and proved herself to be a competent

minister and was exceptionally, I think, loyal to Peter Robinson.

That's ultimately what paved the way for this. You have followed her

career at close quarters in Fermanagh for many years now. Did

you see her as a future leader of the party? I think I did. I

understand Sam's point about her age, but, I mean, Arlene Foster was

always in a hurry. At the age of 18 she joined the Ulster unionist party

at Queens. By her mid 2 o 0s she was a major player within Fermanagh and

the party. She was always a significant player and remained a

significant player locally and in the wider context. I'm not surprised

she has reached this pinnacle at the age of 45. What do you remember

about her since she first came to public prominence? What kind of an

operator was she? She's a very interesting character. There are

really two sides to Arlene Foster. I remember being at a selection

meeting in 1998, where she wasn't selected, after the meeting you

know, she was shaking hands with everybody. She was on first name

terms. She is good with people on that level. However, she can also be

very blunt, straight to the point with journalists as well as with

political opponents, even people within her own party. She can be

very friendly, but she can also be straight to the point. Sam, straight

to the point can be a strength on occasions, it can be an aKillies

heel? She's similar to Peter Robinson. People have talked up the

differences. She is a former Ulster unionist, a woman, a member of the

Church of Ireland. In many ways when you look at what they've done, they

are very similar. That is one of the reasons they got on so well

politically. They were on the same page, taking the DUP in the same

directionment the fact that Peter Robinson's history was of street

agitation and that stuff way back in the past, hers was in the Ulster

unionist party as a solicitor rising up through the ranks didn't seem to

matter where they wanted to go at this point was pretty much the same

place. Her rogues and renegades comment drew criticism recently. Is

that an insight into what she really thinks about nationalists and

republicans? I don't think we know. There is a certain quality about

Arlene Foster. She doesn't give much away. Was it a tactical decision or

something that came out she didn't want to. She is not a Willie

liberal. She is is... There is a different emphasis with her. She

will agree with the party on gay marriage, abortion, touch stone

issues over recent years. Her emphasis and tone is that of the

Church of Ireland, not of the free Presbyterian What about her church.

Relationship with nationalists and republicans particularly in

Fermanagh. Her family history is difficult as far as that

relationship is concerned, for all sorts of reasons. Do you think that

could be an impedestrian meant to her working successfully with Martin

McGuinness? . I think you have to remember from an early age she was

born along the border in Fermanagh at the age of eight years her father

was the victim of a shooting. He was shot in the head and survived. She

speaks very vividly about the experience of remembering that night

when she was 18 she was on a school bus when there was a bomb on the bus

to attack the UDR driver. She was injured. That background and the

knowledge of being brought up along the border, and living with the

campaign, at that time, that's a difficult background, but as time as

moved on, Sam is absolutely right, she has learned she will have to do

business with her opponents. We've moved into a new era. She will be

business-like rather than being overly friendly. She was with Martin

McGuinness in Fermanagh yesterday? At the Fermanagh Trust event

yesterday. The word "trust" is an interesting word there. They were

perfectly civilised. They worked very well together. I think, you

know, they both are friendly people. I think they will get on fairly well

on a personal Do you agree level. With that? It remains to be seen.

Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness at points got on like a house at

fire, it would seem, at other points they were at each other's throats.

There is politics behind this. She is a pragmatic politician. Sam, here

is an important question, I think, as far as the DUP is concerned. Will

there be an element within the party that won't want a former Ulster

unionist and a woman in charge? I don't think that is the major issue.

I understand why some people feel that is the issue. Some people are

uneasy about the fact that she is Church of Ireland, more so than the

fact she is a female, I think, because they are concerned what that

might mean for policy in ten years time. She has been integrated into

the party. If you listen to the reception she got at the DUP

conference recently. It was every bit the reception that Nigel Dodds

got. It was very enthusiastic in a way that other people weren't

necessarily getting. I don't think that is the issue that it has been

built up to be. Could she attract former Ulster unionist voters to the

DUP particularly west of the Bann presumably that is what she is

hoping she will do? Her departure from the Ulster European Union fist

party was abg row uponious. They have moved on considerable. There is

bad feeling. There is an interesting Arlene Foster factor. The Ulster

unionists were dominant in Fermanagh when she moved over to the DUP. The

DUP have since won council seats. Arlene was the first. There has been

something of a shift. I think it will be very interesting to see, you

know, quickly she will come to an election. What will happen with that

election. It will be very interesting. The election is

fascinating, Sam. She faces a challenge on both flanks come next

May from the TUV on one side and the Ulster unionists on the other. If

she doesn't deliver or if she under delivers, she could be in trouble?

She could. I think the expectation has to be that the DUP will lose

seats as things stand at the moment. For her to come back as the biggest

party I think will be a success and a considerable success given what

she is taking on at the It's been a funny

old year in politics. From a crisis over welfare,

to a crisis over paramilitary violence, to agreement

on a fresh start - here's Gareth Gordon's look back

at some of the highs and lows. # Hello

# It's me # I was wondering if after all these

years you'd like to meet # To go over, everything thing... #

A number of beneficiaries to this fee I will refer to them as person

a, b, c, d and e. I can tell this committee that person a is Mr Peter

Robinson MLA. # They say that time's supposed to

heal you #... I'm offended by the allegation.

Given its source, hardly surprised. Any and all efforts that I made were

motivated by what was in the best interests of our economy.

# Come fly with me # Let's fly away... #

It's a provocative action. Storm in a teacup.

# What on earth did you do that for... #

Happy St Patrick's Day. Anyone wearing orange is not welcome here!

Only joking. We have learnt, in the course of the

recent days, that the scheme being brought forward by the Minister for

Social Development doesn't give full protection to claimants. I have

never seen such a dishonourable, ham fisted statement. A major line of

inquiry for this investigation is that men's of the Provisional IRA

were involved in this murder. I'm, therefore, standing aside as First

Minister and other DUP ministers will resign with immediate effect.

# Your right arm in # In out

# In, out # Shake it all about... #

You cannot have business as usual. Are they getting paid these in and

out ministers? We believe the agreement will

consolidate the peace, secure stability and a new beginning for

politics, an opportunity to move forward with a real sense of hope

and purpose. There is a principle in my book of

giving someone who has earned something the chance rather than

someone who does not have one solitary vote. I thought I was worth

a little more. If she goes to the TUV in future does that give you

cause for concern? It might give the TUV cause for concern.

# So it's going to be forever # Or it's going to go down in

flames... # You have a complete brass neck. I'm

pleased to see you taking a reddner. It's a pity I couldn't put words in

your mouth. A bit more respect and manners. It's degrading to you to

behave in that manner. # You always get what you want

# And you don't even try # Your friends hate it when it's

ails always going your way # I'm glad you have luck on your

side # You said definitely maybe

# I'm saying probably no... # I've already told Nigel Dodds that I

believe that he's the natural successor to Peter Robinson. I

believe that the best way forward is to back Arlene Foster as leader of

our party. I'm humbled by the amount of support I've received in a very

short space of time. I very much look forward to leading the party if

that's the wish of the party. A year in the life of politics

there, in slightly less Tonight, we've brought together not

two, but three commentators to reflect on the last 12 months -

Eamonn McCann, Baroness Blood Welcome to the programme. Thank you

for being here. Let's talk about legacy first of all.

As well as British forces. Of course neither side wants the doors flung

wide open. Some deal like the welfare deal will be conducted and

it will be swept under the rug. The only one scandal really tells the

tale. Something will be fudged and it will be put away. There will not

be full disclosure. Do you think this issue can ever be resolved to

the satisfaction of the families? Unless there are major radical

changes in society, we will not see. I listened to the Secretary of State

speaking there. Nothing she said give me any reason to believe that

anything is going to change with regard to disclosure. The British

government and others have huge vested interest in keeping things

hidden in Northern Ireland. We would discover there were murder gangs

operating with the approval of government authorities. Murder was

committed on all sides. Do you think anybody in the British establishment

once the full truth to be published? Do you think the IRA wants the

filters? People hang together because they think if they don't

they might be hanged apart. We are not going to get truth in the North.

People say to look at South Africa with truth and reconciliation. In

South Africa, everybody agreed what the problem was. It was minority

will. People understood there was no agreement in the North. Lasley, this

process has been driven by families. Driven by one or two people on

occasion. The full page advert today was the result of campaigning by

relatives. Not from politicians or a human rights group. The Secretary of

State says she has impossible task to do but is optimistic. She thinks

the issue can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Do you

think there is any glimmer of hope? No. You hear talk in Northern

Ireland about truth. The problem is we don't know who's truth we are

talking about. Both sides have a history to hide. She was not going

to come on here and be pessimistic. In her opinion, the last agreement

they had, Fresh Start, was a super deal. Frankly, this is the last

thing they are going to worry about. What do the families do? They want

truth and believe they deserve truth. They reckon truth is

relatively straightforward for them to get if people are prepared to

give it to them. Have they any hope of getting that? No because I think

the politicians are being untruthful to those families. They are telling

them on one hand there could be a solution and many are going into a

meeting and saying let's talk about this. Isn't any real truth even

there. They have hoped to test several cases. When you look at

other examples around the world, in places like Chile, ideas of

grandiose formal structures, even when you are perceived to work, ten

years later, disappointed relatives are still chipping away looking for

real justice. Eventually that will produce a common idea of what

happened and justice for some families. That will be the best we

can hope for. That might not necessarily be the whole truth. Try

to three times in the interview, the secretary of state referred to Wii

and Sinn Fein. In her mindset, this is a problem to be solved between

the Northern Ireland Office and Sinn Fein. Are more cynical person myself

might say it is between the security forces and the provisional IRA.

There have been three attempts to fix this in ten years and it is

always followed through. It is going to happen again. The swamp not go

away, but you will have Theresa Villiers or her successor saying we

want to disclose as much as we can. You're going to have political

parties demanding for the truth. None of them are serious. None. The

idea the rugby and agreed to historical narrative is family. The

three of you are saying you see it as continuing to be a pretty

intractable problem? Let's talk about Arlene Foster. She takes over

as leader of the DUP next week. And First Minister we understand.

Jeffrey Donaldson made that crystal clear on the radio this morning. Is

she the right person for the job? At the moment. She has stepped in for

Robinson on two occasions. She seems to be doing the job. I have known

her for many years. I have no doubt she will do a good job. She's a

typical Northern Ireland person and is straight down the line. How long

that lasts I have no idea. What derails that? Anybody in a political

party is very best to the political party. If she steps out of line or

says something, she could be gone tomorrow. Same with any political

party. There is no difference with her being a woman. She is a

politician. There is a novelty factor in a new leader. The fact is

her party management experience is come quickly untested. She has been

an executive from one time, but she has mainly been overseeing invest

NI. She doesn't have much experience of leading this party and all its

factions together. Can she make a job of it? I don't know. I think it

is interesting that there are people in the DUP who want to be a moderate

and proper political party and not just repeat rhetoric of Reverend

Ian. But there is a problem. I think the DUP could've been finished off

in other circumstances by a series of incompetence is but also personal

and political shenanigans from the last couple of years. They can

overcome all that if they can present the DUP as the party which

is most determined to and rely only can be counted upon to represent the

interests of the Protestant community vis-a-vis the other side.

That is why Robinson cannot run away from flag protests. He has to keep

onside with them. She offers a chance to change the tone. There is

a problem. Can you be a political party in the North unless you base

politics in the north of something other than a communal identity,

these things are not going to change and the DUP will not change. We are

out of town. We will continue this conversation in the corridor! -- out

of time. This is our last edition

of The View this year. Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11.35am, here on BBC One. But, in the meantime,

we leave you with the DUP leader-in-waiting and a few helpful

suggestions for her Christmas card. From all of us on the team,

goodbye and Happy Christmas. I don't want a lot for Christmas

there is just one thing I need. I don't care about the present

underneath the Christmas tree. Santa Claus will make me happy with a toy

on Christmas Day. I just want you for my own. More than you could ever

know. Make my wish come true. All I want for Christmas is you.

Sometimes, all that's needed is a helping hand.

Recognising someone's value, and seeing when they need help.