25/01/2018 The View

Amid ever shifting

political sands over Brexit

and north-south relations,

the leader of Fianna Fail

is live in the studio -

but will Micheal Martin ever

lead his party into electoral battle

here in Northern Ireland?

Welcome to The View.

Aside from a possible

Fianna Fail move north,

it's post-Brexit borders and now

the discussion around a 12-week

abortion limit which have led

to a greater focus on the politics

of the Republic.

Micheal Martin caused

shockwaves last week

when he announced a dramatic change

in his position on abortion.

I'll be talking to him about that,

the possibility of his party

contesting elections here,

and his plan for a special economic

zone for Northern Ireland when

the UK leaves the European Union.

Also tonight, a brand new building

in Ballykelly to house

hundreds of civil servants.

But will this major relocation

scheme deliver the economic

benefits it promised?

There is a momentum here already,

that this building will be filled in

one form or another.

Why expectation

was that we'd have thousands of jobs

here by now.

And I've been talking

to the Dead Ringers star who's

trying to get to grips with two

of our politicians in particular.

It's all done through the smile and

the eyes, dazzled by the lip gloss,

it's very much like that.

it's very much like that.

And then

Arlene

she's got that kind of

comment you know...

And hoping to make a good impression

in Commentators' Corner,

it's a welcome return

for Newton Emerson

and Deirdre Heenan.

Hello.

He's a party leader very

firmly in the spotlight.

It was only a week ago that

Fianna Fail's Micheal Martin

stood up in the Dail

and declared his backing

for the repeal of the eighth

amendment, a move that sent shock

waves through his own party.

Tonight, he's in Belfast,

where he's been meeting business

leaders about Brexit.

Welcome back to the programme.

Thank you.

I want to talk first

about your new position on abortion.

You've been identified

throughout your career as coming

from a pro-life perspective,

but suddenly, in the debate over

the repeal of the eighth

amendment this day last week,

you did a U-turn.

Why?

First of all, I did say before

Christmas that I would read the

presentations that were made to a

Parliamentary committee, which had

been sitting for a number of months,

on this question, following an

earlier consideration by its

citizens Assembly, on the question

of repealing this article in the

constitution in relation to

abortion. About two years ago, I

would admit, mothers who had to go

to England for terminations of their

babies following a diagnosis of

fatal faecal abnormality, they spoke

to us about the harrowing trauma

that that diagnosis represented for

them, because they wanted to have

their babies, but they got this

diagnosis. They then went to England

to bring the remains of their loved

ones back, in all sorts of

circumstances, and that was

something I couldn't countenance

future women having to go through if

the opportunity came my way again as

a legislator. One cannot address

that in the republic without

addressing that item, without

repeating it, and likewise the issue

of rape and incest. I have great

difficulty forcing a woman to talk

pregnancy as a legislator if she is

pregnant as a result of rape or

incest. The committee had a look

presentations on that from

obstetricians and gynaecologists and

legal people, but what was

interesting was the obstetricians,

who were very clear that the

existing constitutional framework in

the republic acts as it causes harm

women, and it has caused an, and in

one particular instance, and maybe

more that we don't know of, and

equally it has the threat of

criminal sanction hanging over them

in terms of their clinical

interventions that they might make

in various difficult situations or

traumatic situations. I think that

criminalisation has to be removed.

Some people were surprised and

discomfited by your change of

position. They have said they could

live with that, they can understand

how you can change your position

with regards to fatal faecal

abnormality and sexual crime, but

you have also said you will support

abortion up to 12 weeks within

pregnancy, and that isn't with a

caveat like you have been saying, it

goes further than people would have

expected you to go. So why did you

reach that conclusion?

That's a

difficult part of this, because

there is the deletion of the

Constitution, and then one has to

frame legislation if it was to be

repealed.

To be clear, you would

support an amendment to legislation

in the republic to allow abortion in

cases up to 12 weeks.

Yes, and we'd

have to draft new legislation, that

would be the consequence of the

deletion of the article 30, but you

asked me how the committee got to

that conclusion.

Well, how did you

agree to sign up?

I agreed with

voluntary committee, their

conclusions why, because it is a

little presentation, their senior

people saying, you can't legislate,

there is no humane or legal way to

deal with the rape or incest issues

legally. And that is the point in

early pregnancy but it's all very

well for people to show empathy or

to say, we don't want to force, and

many people say that, but there is a

logical follow through to that, and

in addition one significant piece of

evidence presented to the committee

was this, that the prevalence of the

abortion pill up to ten to 12 weeks,

in the first trimester, has been a

significant change in practice, and

what you now have in the republic is

unregulated, unrestricted access to

abortion via that abortion pill,

without medical supervision, and

that's a big issue for doctors, but

in some instances women come in with

complications following accessing

the abortion pill online. Our

experience about that didn't make

Ireland a country without abortion.

Retaining it will not make it a

country without abortion in the

future. I will say this, we have

freedom of conscience within our

party. I respect people with

different views...

And there are

others within your party...

It's a

personal issue of moral and ethical

foundation, and we faced this issue

in 2013 in the case of suicide that

came out of the courts, facilitating

abortion where a woman's life is in

danger as a result of suicide. We

said we would have a freedom of

conscience vote on that, and that

has followed, and other parties are

now following us a with that.

Is it

fair to say that you have regarded

yourself as a pro-life member of the

Dail for many years, and you are no

longer pro-life in your argument?

Your critics would say you can no

longer say you pro-life and agree

with terminations in cases which

don't relate to fatal faecal

abnormality or sexual crime up to 12

weeks. Those two positions are

contradictory.

I think certain

groups have appropriated the term

pro-life to themselves and anybody

who doesn't agree with this

absolutist position is no longer

pro-life, but I don't accept that.

All of my instincts are about

pro-life, and in fact, I would

argue, changing the law in itself is

not going to turn the women of

Ireland into abortionists.

But it

allows them to have abortion in a

way they are not at the moment.

We

must trust women more, we must trust

doctors more.

But that is a

pro-choice argument.

It is pro-life

and pro-choice in many respects. I

don't believe that those are two

labels. Of course you can be both,

in the sense that the great advances

in medical science...

By definition,

pro-life is not pro-choice. It may

be the case that pro-choice people

will accept that you don't always

have to have a termination, of

course, but a pro-life person will

never accept somebody has a right to

choose termination up to 12 weeks.

I

am simply saying, try and say that

somebody who advocates a humane

response to a very traumatic

situation for women is somehow

antilife or somebody not generally

pro-life, I think that's wrong. It

cuts to the kernel of it. They're

great advances in obstetrics, and

I'm a great believer in that, and it

has changed the abortion debate

significantly, compared to the 60s

and 70s and what transpired in the

UK. I believe in affirming that. And

what the doctors said to the

committee, where a baby is viable,

we deliver in all circumstances,

even if the mother's health is

endangered. Doctors are not planning

overnight into becoming antilife

people or abortionists, and I

equally said, we are always told

that the floodgates would open, but

it would usher in a new era, but I

don't accept that argument any more

and I think our culture is just as

important as legal limits.

You are

trying to carve out an interesting

space for your position, and I can

imagine people who are pro-life not

agreeing with a lot of what you are

saying, and I'm sure that debate

will continue in the campaign on the

repeal of the amendment were you

surprised at the reaction there was

to the apparent U-turn on your part

when you got up a week ago in the

Dail and made that announcement? One

unnamed TD in your party said he

would be lynched for what you'd

said.

Welcome I wasn't, and we had a

candid debate on it yesterday, and

people fully respect my right to

fully informed freedom of

conscience.

But your voice is

different to everybody else.

But

people accept it in the party, and

other members of the front bench are

declared likewise, and others have

declared oppositely. It's a good

sign of a mature debate that we can

have that approach, and the idea

that you cannot impose uniform view

on such a profound question is

absurd in modern politics, and I

think it's good that you have mutual

respect, and I think once the debate

is carried out in a calm way, that

will be to the benefit of society

generally, but I come back to it,

since I made my statement at the

Dail, many women and couples have

shared their experiences with me.

It's not as simple as people might

suggest in terms of being pro-life

or pro-choice, it's not like that.

Nobody is suggesting is simple.

There is a continuum of

perspectives, and I respect people

with different views to mine,

genuinely.

That's very interesting.

I also want to talk about Brexit. We

met some business leaders in Belfast

today to discuss that issue, massive

on the island of Ireland at the

moment. Do you had to concede, is

the leader of Fianna Fail, the main

opposition party, that the Fine Gael

government has handled the issue of

a hard border in the Brexit debate

pretty well?

We worked with the

government in the republic, all

parties working together in a

bipartisan way to get the best

outcome for the island, so we don't

see this as a competition. I am a

member of the group in Europe, the

Liberal Democrats, and I work with

the prime ministers of Holland and

even posh that, representing the EU.

We work with the Taoiseach.

So

everybody is saying that Leo

Varadkar is doing a good job.

We

welcome the first phase of the talks

in relation to Brexit, although it

is the first phase and there is some

kicking of the count down the road,

a degree of things that can't be

reconciled. The commitment from the

British government, that there will

not be a border. There is a lot of

fleshing out to be done yet, and I

had concerns about the megaphone

nature of the announcement.

Do you

think it was a bit ill-advised of

Leo Varadkar to adopt such an

uncompromising position with the UK

on Brexit?

The position with written

has been that both governments have

been saying all along that we don't

want a border. -- the position with

Britain. But the difficulty is to

reconcile that with the British

desire to leave the customs union

and single market. I agree with the

Irish government position, but we

were really dismayed to see the UK

Government saying they wanted to

come out of the customs union and

single market, because that is

damaging to Britain and the island

of Ireland, Northern Ireland and the

republic, so we need good east-west

trading relationships with Britain,

and a tariff free relationship north

and south on this island, and that

is our entire, unified focus in the

republic. We meet together as

parties in the republic on this, to

deal with Brexit.

Will that persuade Arlene Foster?

Annette and I put my point of view

towards that in relation to Brexit

and in my view there should be a

special economic zone. She didn't

rule it out.

She is not desperately

well disposed towards it.

The battle

-- the bottom line is that I met

with the Institute of directors

today and they wonder why Northern

Ireland doesn't have a government at

time of great need. To me Brexit

demands the restoration of the

executive and the institutions and

there is an obligation on Arlene

Foster DUP and Sinn Fein to put

aside their differences and restore

the executive.

IU hopeful that will

happen? The talks started yesterday.

I am hopeful.

A lot of people are

hopeful.

I have been involved in the

talks myself as a former Foreign

Minister and I get the sense they

have agreed to go back and it is

imperative that they do. I can think

of no greater threat to Northern

Ireland businesses, jobs and farming

Danny Briggs it. We hope Britain and

the EU can get it sorted ultimately

and the British government can get a

coherent response to the issue but

really, if we accept that, and all

the economic analysis is negative

about Brexit, and we are about

limiting the damage that Brexit can

cause? I have met ministers from

Scotland and Wales about this and

Northern Ireland has no voice in the

government.

What is the talks on

devolution fail and we look at the

imposition of direct rule.

I don't

want to contemplate it. It would be

very serious and very grave for us.

It would represent a failure on the

half of the two main parties,

particularly on the 20th anniversary

of the Good Friday Agreement which

was such a good and dynamic

agreement. I was at a launch of a

book reaching out to America and

they spoke about the nugget of peace

that the Good Friday Agreement gave

us and we shouldn't take it for

granted. On the 20th anniversary

year of the Good Friday Agreement I

think there is an obligation on the

parties really to put their

differences aside. I don't think

there was a whole lot between them.

This is a critical question, if

there is a return to direct rule,

should there be a beefed up rule for

Dublin -- role for Dublin in that?

Doubler will have a constant

Doubler will have a constant --

contemplative role. The bottom line

is the Good Friday Agreement is

there. There was a consultative role

out the and it isn't area that

neither government wants to go down.

The British government and the

Republic do not want to get down

there Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair

had a particular form of words for

that scenario and it would create

difficulties, particularly with

Brexit tied into it because we have

real concerns in Republic about

citizens in Northern Ireland who

want to remain part of the European

Union and should because of the Good

Friday Agreement being part of the

EU framework so I think it is

important that parties knuckle down.

I meet people in the North who are

impatient with the politicians and

they want people to work on the

bread-and-butter issues that affect

them in their daily lives.

I

mentioned in the introduction that

you intend to run Fiona Foyle

candidates to contest council

elections in Northern Ireland?

That

remains a target for the party. We

may have events in the public before

that but we do not know that for

definite.

Would you be worrying

Fianna Fail candidates against SDP

or after you have so steamed the

party? We have made

no decisions of

that time at all.

But you win

high-level talks with the SDLP about

merging?

We have been very close to

them for many years and many of our

members have canvassed for their

members for many years.

Would you

like to be the member -- leader of

Dayna fail in the North?

No, we work

with them in terms of a common

agenda in the island of Ireland and

in terms of the implementation of

the Good Friday Agreement. It is not

my dream.

In 2019 you would run

against the SDLP?

To the target for

us to run in 2019 but the precise

format that would take is still in

question.

The relationship with

Colum Eastwood 's a discussion

between those parties, where they

headed?

I think you are reading

maybe too much into it at this

particular stage. What I am saying

is historically there has been

ongoing engagement between the two

parties and we go to each other's

areas and canvas particularly in the

border counties and that will

continue.

A senior member of your

party says there should be a merger

sooner rather than later.

I think it

is far easier to say something like

that then do something like that and

I think one has to be clearly

sensitive to a whole lot of issues

and first of all I would say that

the SDLP is a party that has its own

identity and independence and I will

not say anything tonight that would

be insensitive to that.

Thank you

very much and good to talk to you.

Are you for joining us on the

programme tonight.

Stormont may be shut down,

but that hasn't stopped one

of the biggest redeployments

of civil servants

in Northern Ireland.

The first batch, around 240,

are getting ready to move

into their new offices

in Ballykelly, the headquarters

for the Department of Agriculture,

Environment and Rural Affairs.

But a trade union official says

the government will struggle

to fill the building.

So what happened to the grand

plans for up to 800 staff

to make the big move?

Here's Enda McClafferty.

Hundreds of civil servants are on

the move, leaving Belfast behind and

heading for the North West. It has

been a journey with many twists and

turns. It has been worth it for this

man who, for 12 years, spent four

hours a day travelling to and from

work.

Anybody who has travelled from

Derry to Belfast knows that road.

Delays at various places, you come

down the hill section once you have

done that you are in Belfast city

centre and you have to cope with

that traffic as well.

No more. This

will be his new destination, on the

former Army base in Ballykelly. This

impressive building can hold up to

600 workers. Right now there are

plans to move 240 in by March, and a

further 80 in three years. The union

involved in the move fears it may

never reach full capacity.

For a

number of reasons, first of all no

one else has been identified to

Myfanwy are seen massive cuts in the

public service and in the next few

financial years those cuts will be

massive and there will be less jobs

available to be transferred.

The

senior civil servant in charge of

the move has no such concerns.

The

decision is only been taken by the

executive that this headquarters

building will be built and filled

with 600 people. I mentioned earlier

a need for a review that will

determine our options and it will be

beneficial to have investors in

place to consider those options but

there is a momentum here already

that this building will be filled in

one form or the other and it will be

for them to determine how they will

do so in due course.

The move from

Belfast Ballykelly has had more than

one driver. We have also had a

change in the direction of travel.

Michelle O'Neill started the process

before being replaced as agriculture

minister by the DUP 's Michelle

McIlveen. Worried about the loss of

experienced staff, the DUP

ministered changed the plan and

opened up the process to other

departments, and that wasn't the

only change, according to this MLA.

240 jobs is a lot sure of the 800

that initially was promised, but

even if it was to rise to 320, that

doesn't happen until 2023. Remember,

this is just one tiny part of this

whole estate. 700 acres. My

expectation, and many others was, we

would have thousands of jobs created

here by now. There is none.

More

than 90% of those moving here

already live in the north-west and

that is why there have been

questions about how much extra

revenue will be generated locally.

That is not how this MLA sees it.

It

is taking a rural department out of

an urban setting in Belfast are

making it accessible to urban

communities and offering people in

rural communities like Northwest the

opportunity to access high quality

public sector jobs in their own

areas. It is disappointing that

some, like the SDLP, are criticising

what is essentially a very positive

measure in addressing regional

economic imbalance.

The cost of the

original project is around £33

million and that is supposedly good

value for money.

When you look at

both the private sector and the

public sector, it is. I would expect

800 to 1000 jobs, and that would be

a huge factor in terms of the

north-west in creating better

employment opportunities.

The

building is due to open in March but

who will cut the ribbon? A minister

from Stormont or maybe a redeployed

minister travelling away from

London? It is travel plans for

workers which matter most right now.

I have checked the route, it is 20

minutes from here to the front door

in Ballykelly. My commute is going

to change from two hours to get to

work to 20 minutes to get to work

and that is going to make such a

difference to my life.

Enda McClafferty reporting.

Now, Theresa May, Angela Merkel

and Nicola Sturgeon are just three

examples of women who have risen

to the top of their political field.

But they are also part

of the repertoire of

the impressionist Jan Ravens,

who's a stalwart of the TV and radio

programme Dead Ringers.

She was in Belfast this week

with her one-woman show,

and newly included in her portfolio

of impressions are Arlene Foster

and Michelle O'Neill.

I went along to meet her

after the show and I asked her why

she calls it A Difficult Woman?

It is several things. It is the idea

of, do you have to be a difficult

woman in order to be successful? In

what way is a successful woman

difficult, and how much is that to

do with how she is perceived as

opposed to what she actually is?

People often say, she is very

ambitious, very ambitious. You

think, yes, what is wrong with that?

It is used as a pejorative term in

relation to a woman. It was to do

with that perception.

with that perception.

You have timed

it perfectly as a female

impressionist at a time when so many

women are so visible within the

political world, and none more so

than Theresa May. She must be a gift

from heaven from your point of view.

She is a gift but I must say which

was Home Secretary I used to say to

the guys on dead ringers that we

have to do her because she is Home

Secretary and she is in such a

powerful position and we never do

anything about her, but the reason

we never did anything was that she

never said anything. It wasn't

really until she came out on the

steps of Downing Street and did that

sort of Miliband -esque speech about

how she was going to save the world,

you know, the, did you know that if

you are born poor, you will die up

to four years earlier than other

people? And it was that sort of dip

low phonic, that whole thing of

doing your own descant, like two

voices of the same time, and have

Ralph -- her mouth is very often

held in a position of tension at the

same time and you get the impression

she never relaxes or has a laugh.

She probably does, she is a human

being, but it is almost like she is

embarrassed by what she is saying.

On the other side of the house you

have Diane Abbott. Is she a star

performer from your point of view

for Labour?

I think Diane Abbott is

very much a sort of character, in

that she always seems like she is

going to ball straight back to

sleep, and, you know, that someone

has just woken her up and, you know,

I think she is somebody that

historically they have wheeled out

and I think she is very keen on

being on the telly and I think so

sometimes Diane Abbott isn't quite

maybe as well briefed as she might

be and you get this kind of, it will

cost... It will cost... And it is,

Diane... You are the Shadow Home

Secretary and you should have the

police figures!

We have two

formidable women here in Arlene

Foster and Michelle O'Neill. You

have started to think about Michelle

O'Neill?

I started to think about

her and then look but I couldn't

actually... I am sorry, what?

Was at

the speed that struck you first?

There are no vowels, or consonants.

She would say rule as though it was

just our, R, L. There are no vowels.

It is very staccato and very rapid

fire and very staccato and it is all

done through the style and the wee

eyes and the smile and you're

dazzled by the lip gloss and it is

very much like that.

And then

Arlene.

She does not have a smile in

her. She doesn't seem to have smile

within her range, does she? She is,

like, you know, I think she looks

like a character played by Harry

Enfield so, like, it is all sort of

like really miserable. I am not

surprise she is miserable. I mean, I

couldn't... I knew some baked things

about the heating initiative scandal

but I sort of read a bit about it

since coming here and it is

absolutely unbelievable.

It is

complicated, that is the show. Tier

it is very complicated. I find the

politics of Ireland so interesting

but until this election when the

DUP

came into the British political

picture very much soap and Theresa

May, you know, banging her £1

million, she must've thought all her

Christmases came at once.

When you

set out to do a show like this there

are material and impressions that

you have to balance but in terms of

what you actually do and what you

make fun of, are you trying to

entertain or feed into very serious

political debate about Brexit and

American politics?

Satire isn't going to bring down the

government but it can change

perceptions, and I do believe quite

passionately in satire as a way of

asking people to look at things in a

different way. And, I mean, the most

famous example of satire changing

people's perceptions is the David

steel and David Owen on spitting

image, where David steel used to

complain that he was the little one

in David Allen's pocket, which

alters people's perceptions of him

forever, and maybe it did, maybe it

didn't, but I do think that comedy

is a useful way to get things, to

get people to look at things maybe

in a way they hadn't before, and to

sort of show that maybe things

aren't black and white, that there

are grey areas.

You are Angela

Merkel -- your Angela Merkel in the

show says she will give Theresa May

until next Tuesday, I think it is.

You will be hoping Theresa May stays

at Number Ten as long as possible?

Yes, I have a vested interest!

Fingers crossed! Jan Ravens, keeping

her fingers crossed at Theresa May.

and thanks to everyone

at the Harp Bar for allowing us

to film that interview

earlier in the week.

And with that, it's time

for tonight's commentators

to have their say, so welcome back

Newton Emerson and Deirdre Heenan.

I want to talk about Micheal Martin

and abortion first of all. An

interesting space he was trying to

carve out for his position, very

different to that which is felt

throughout his political career up

to now.

It is a different position,

even though he was saying it really

isn't, and he is trying to finesse

that space between pro-life and

pro-choice, and you can imagine

people shouting at the television,

saying, that's not pro-life, that's

not pro-choice. I think the

interesting thing is that last we

are having some sort of debate

around abortion, which particularly

male politicians in the south have

avoided for years, so there is a

debate, he is talking about looking

at evidence and reviewing evidence

and looking at his position, and

probably he realises that, in

Ireland, attitudes have changed and

science has changed, and that will

play quite well with his

metropolitan constituents in Dublin,

and it will still appeal to the

rural part of his party. I think the

issue is the announced it in the

house without any discussion with

his party, and he is the leader, and

that's not what you would expect.

He

also admitted publicly there to that

target of running Fianna Fail

candidates in the council elections

in Northern Ireland next year.

That

will be the first send any of us

have that Fianna Fail has arrived,

even though this has been a plan for

years.

Do you think it will happen?

He said it will but there is little

public sense of the ground work

being put in full there is work

being put in in talking to the SDLP,

but he hasn't really prepared the

electorate for its arrival. It feels

like sucking it and seeing. It feels

like they don't appreciate the

extent to which it is a generational

project to build a party, you can't

just glad and say, we've arrived,

and expect a round bottles.

And not

talking about a merger with the

SDLP.

Yes, and they are in danger of

making themselves look like a tiny

Unionist party, or the GB parties

when they arrived here, and odd

fluke.

We will see that talks

deadline moving, I think, because

there hasn't been ground work, and

you can't appear overnight with a

party, with no activists or

structure or system, and there was

that question about the SDLP,

because he doesn't want to cause

upset.

Yes, and he was open about

that. He also said Brexit demands

the restoration of the executive

briefly. What chance?

They will not

be a deal by February the 7th. These

talks are set up for Easter, as far

as I can see. The Brexit fear...

They should put pressure on the

parties.

That's it from The View

for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11:35am here on BBC One,

but we leave you with one

of Jan Raven's best impressions.

She admits she struggles

with Arlene Foster's voice,

but there's no denying she has

the Prime Minister's nailed.

Good night.

AS THERESA MAY:

I will never forget

that historic journey to Buckingham

Palace, where Her Majesty the Queen

asked me to form a new government,

and Prince Philip asked me to make

him a cup of tea, and don't forget

the hobnobs, sweetheart. I was

delighted to accept both requests. I

want to help those people who are

just about getting by, those people

whose houses may be worth less than

half £1 million, people who can't

afford to go on skiing holidays more

than once a year. I am not going to

be giving a running commentary on

Brexit negotiations. I have left

David Davis and Boris Johnson in

charge. As the Chuckle Brothers were

busy.