Mark Carruthers and guests review the week's political events from Stormont and Westminster and follow the highs and lows of the political week.
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Are we at a critical stage
tonight in the negotiations
to get Stormont back?
There's speculation there could be
signs of movement on the hill.
We'll be trying to piece
the jigsaw together.
Welcome to The View.
Brexit is back
on the agenda big time
and the border issue is once again
one of the major sticking points.
The DUP's Ian Paisley has called
for a "no surrender" approach
to the UK's neotiations with the EU,
but is it really that simple?
The North Antrim MP is with me,
and in our Foyle studio
is the former SDLP
leader, Mark Durkan.
Plus 60 years on, a row over who
inspired the civil rights campaign.
-- 50 years on.
I think that the article that Declan
Kearney Road is delusional. When I
say that, I say it is very little
basis in reality, in fact. Or into
The reality is that Republican
activists were involved directly
with many others in the formation of
the civil rights movement.
And taking ownership
of Commentators' Corner this week -
Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.
But first tonight, the two
main parties have been
involved in talks this evening
at Stormont, with the prospect
of a second five-party
round-table session tomorrow.
But are we any closer
to a deal being done?
There have been some optimistic
noises from the Secretary of State,
Karen Bradley, and the Tanaiste,
Simon Coveney, and talk
of an agreement "within days".
So what are the chances?
With me now is our political
correspondent Enda McClafferty.
Well, Enda, speculation
that a deal could be
-- speculation that Theresa May like
the positioning herself to get
She has been criticised in
the past for having a hands-off
approach to the talks in Northern
Ireland. Response, Downing Street
have insisted that she was fully
briefed by the Secretary of State
for Northern Ireland and there was
money for calm. She has now put this
out as an option. -- there was no
need for her to come. If it is felt
that she is going to be able to
nudge DUP and Sinn Fein closer
together, she might come. There is
no sense outside the circle that we
are close to this point, or any kind
of intervention from Downing Street,
or doctrine, wiping the bodies -- or
Dublin might bring the parties to a
point unless the two parties agree
to hammer this out.
We had a guess
clusters denied that called for
Theresa May to be involved. To be
clear, we are saying she's willing
to get involved if that is going to
help the process forward. We are not
saying she's about to get involved.
We need to be clear about that. Leo
Varadkar has set in the past 30 and
the Prime Minister promoted with a
shoulder to the wheel if they felt
that would help the process. We are
not at this point yet. -- the Prime
Minister would put their shoulders
to the real. It is being talked
about in Downing Street, though.
Before it from both the DUP and Sinn
Fein today. The positions seem to be
that progress has been made but
significant gaps remain. Before it
is virtually every day now for
That has been the position
all along because this process has
dragged on for more than a year. We
are in the place now where we were
last November when we were getting
positive sounds from the edges of
the talks process. Central to this,
at the heart of this, is a
stand-alone Irish language act. Sinn
Fein says there will be no deal
unless there is a stand-alone
Irishman would act and we know that
the DUP's position says Dimbleby no
deal if it involves a stand-alone
Irishman language act. -- says there
will be no deal. They keep leaving
the elephant out of any talks, and
this is when things fall apart, when
they talk about the Irish language
act. We haven't reached this crucial
We were supposed to have
five party talks today. Karen
Bradley push the to tomorrow. We
think this will happen tomorrow, not
exactly sure. -- pushed them back to
tomorrow. The three smaller parties
are pretty cheesed off with the way
they've been treated recently.
are being treated like political
cheerleaders. They are not going to
have any impact on the final result
of this political gain. It is
frustrating and heard that echoed
this week by Colum Eastwood from the
still be that he wasn't interested
in getting involved in some kind of
pretend process. -- Colum Eastwood
who said this week that he wasn't
We've missed another
milestone because David Stirling,
the head of the civil service that
he needed clarity on a budget by
Sterling. Nigel Dodds has
said that on the other side of the
Westminster recessed, we are talking
up to a fortnight away. He thinks
that the Secretary of State, Karen
Bradley, should press ahead with his
budget plans. Great pressure behind
the scenes felt like all sin. Civil
servants. -- felt by all civil
Enda, thank you.
It's time for the Government
at Westminster to get tougher
with the European Union and adopt
a "no surrender" policy.
That's the view of the DUP's
Ian Paisley, at least.
Accusing Brussels of blackmail
and bullying, an impassioned
Mr Paisley invoked the spirit
of unionism to drive his point home
during Northern Ireland Questions
at Westminster yesterday.
And while it wasn't perhaps
the milestone that Karen Bradley had
it did have its moments
of rhetorical flourish.
Now that the new team has had a
chance to find a way around,
particularly the border, and they
study the issue of the electronic
border, do they believe that such a
furniture is feasible or is it just
The honourable gentleman refers to
the matter of the border. We are
determined they will be no new
physical infrastructure at the
border and we will maintain things
like the Common Travel Area, which
has been in existence since well
before the EU.
Is he not concerned
about the friction in relationships
between the UK Government and the
Irish Republic and what comment as
he got to make about the threat
issued by the Foreign Minister
yesterday that he will block
negotiations if it does not get
legislation to force the Northern
Ireland Assembly to introduce EU
As far as our
relationship with rather long, it
goes back to entries. Trade,
geography, history, and so on. We
have an excellent working
relationship with Northern Ireland.
Does he agree that it's about time
that the Government chemistry did no
surrender attitude to the EU talks?
-- demonstrated a no surrender.
Fights, passion to register,
everything. Stand up to them, man,
stand up to the EU. Let's get on
with leaving the EU.
Ian Paisley in full flow there,
and he's with me in studio now.
And joining us from our Foyle studio
is the former leader
of the SDLP, Mark Durkan.
Ian Paisley, tell me more about this
"no surrender" attitude
you were calling for there.
How's that going to work exactly?
I think most people are sick, sore
and tired by the Government being
sold, if you like, pushed around
during the Brexit negotiations.
Which is people have decided that we
will leave the EU, all of the assets
we control, from fisheries, waters,
trading benefit, that all of that
should be turned to our advantage.
If we leave on the basis of a bad
deal and they cannot -- and I have
not advocating one, if we leave on
the basis that it is not a deal in
place, the EU loses just as much as
ours and the Republic of Ireland
loses the most. The British
Government at positive about this
and say they will get the best deal
That is what the British
Government has been sent. Theresa
May clarified today that the UK is
leading the single market and the
What more do you
want? I have no objection to what
you said. We had Mr Barnier earlier
this week. The fight is a good
start, the pressure that was going
to be applied and that UK had taken
the wrong position. They are trying
to chastise the UK for treating a
determined position to leave the EU.
It is not Michel Barnier's job to
sit quietly because of what you
It is perfectly valid for him
to make the argument that he wishes
that the UK would not leave.
He has no
responsibility to make it easy for
the UK to leave.
He has the right to
make sure that the rest of the
missions are argued for. But he has
no right to saying that he objects
to the British taking a particular
decision. That has been the attitude
of the EU towards Britain. They look
at other countries might decide to
leave after the UK lease. That's
what frightens them the most. I
think they are trying to put the
frighteners on other countries to
the east, that they should not leave
Does Michel Barnier have
the right to express his
disappointment in colourful terms of
the UK has decided to leave?
have the right to talk straight and
frank terms. He also has to listen
to an awful lot of crude language
and all sorts of discussions and
exaggerations representing a
supposedly UK position. Describing
the UN all sorts of terms and
himself personally and also to
terms. -- the EU in all sort of
terms. It clear that the
negotiations that he and David Davis
have treated quite a number of
issues. Few of the ideas seem to be
coming from the EU Government side.
Ian is calling for a no surrender
approach. At the moment, there is a
no plan, no arguments and approach
from the UK. That creates a huge
problem for people like Michel
Barnier that attracted negotiate a
deal with UK to make sense of Brexit
and, so far as anybody can, in
everybody's interests. That creates
problems for the Irish Government.
They need to defend their own
interests, they wanted different --
they want to defend the whole
interests -- they want to defend the
interests of the whole island.
it the case, Mark Durkan, that the
Irish Government is to be careful
how places because it's being
charged with interfering in the
internal affairs, the sovereign
affairs of the UK? Maybe it was too
much to say for itself.
think it has too much to say for
itself. The Irish fragment is in a
particular position with a land
border, -- the Irish Government is
any particular position with a land
border with the UK, Oracle
guarantors with the UK of the Good
Friday Agreement. After all, the
Brexit -- the Brexiteers are saying
that the Good Friday Agreement will
not be touched by Brexit. Then
whenever people try to use the
architecture of the Good Friday
Agreement, they are accused of
interference and upsetting the
constitutional integrity of the UK.
There is a democratic constitutional
integrity of the Good Friday
Agreement that has to be upheld and
the Irish Government should continue
to do that.
The Irish Times puts
today that it is hard to negotiate
with the British Government because
the British Government is still
negotiating with itself.
There is a
deliberate attempt... There is
issues within the Conservative
Party. But there is eight deliberate
attempt -- a deliberate attempt to
make the British Government reveal
But it doesn't have a hand
at the moment, isn't that the
We have a strong hand as a
nation, I don't agree with that. We
are leaving the EU, the customs
union and the single market. Today
the Labour Party spokesman on trade
media group that if we were to stay
in the customs union we would not be
able to make the free trade
agreement with other countries
around the world. It's imperative
that we get on with this, all of the
issues that Mark campaigned for when
he was member of Parliament and
issues that I've campaigned for,
reducing VAT on fuel, tampon tax,
issues like that, all of those taxes
were kept in place by the EU.
Leaving the EU allows us to remove
things that create poverty in our
When you look at the Treasury
figures released this week, leaked
this week, they point to a big
slowdown in economic growth over the
next 15 years. Are you not concerned
A 15 year forecast is
astrology! The Bank of England made
a forecast this time last year, and
it has changed and four times in 12
months. You are expecting me to
believe a forecast for 15 years?
What if it is true?
It is not.
parts of the EU would see a
double-digit slowdown in GDP.
Northern Ireland sells £78 billion
worth of goods, £48 billion with
sold in turn lead within Northern
Why would you leave the
biggest trading bloc in the world?
The remainder goes to the United
Kingdom. How on earth could we lose
out on internal trade when most of
our sales are internal to our
market? The United Kingdom is the
biggest market for Northern Ireland,
so that forecast is nonsense,
Astrology, Mark Durkan?
That is what Ian wants to say to
dismiss these forecasts, because he
does not like them. We are in a
situation where the UK's trading
arrangements with Europe are going
to be up in the air. Ian says there
will be other trade deals, but it is
not clear where we will get them,
offsetting the loss of value in
terms of European trade. We have
more and more sectors waking up to
the dangers of Brexit for them - the
haulage sector most recently
realising that the legislation that
the British and are bringing forward
will place huge restrictions on
them. The British Government are
bringing forward. It could impose
restrictions on the industry
On a sector that you
campaign for, fuel poverty, whenever
you voted in 2009 to try and reduce
VAT on fuel, you were not allowed,
it was brought down to 5%, you will
not allowed to take it to zero
because of the EU. Whenever we leave
the EU, we can scrap VAT in total
for all of our people. And you are
stopped from doing that.
the UK Government are saying they
will not do that. The fact is that
we have governments to have at times
protected that they did not have
discretion in relation to be 80
whenever they had a lot more
discretion that they did. -- in
relation to VAT.
In relation to
hospitality, fuel, UK minister
saying they could not reduce it.
passenger duty, we couldn't reduce
that because of the UK.
The point is
that there are wider economic issues
at stake in relation to this, and of
course the implications here locally
not just in terms of the border,
customs and trade terms, it is also
the dangers of borderism, more and
more different terms over the years,
going against the grain and the
direction of travel under the
Let's look forward and
say that in a year's time, just over
a year, the UK leaves the EU - what
will the border look like? We are
hearing from Karen Bradley and
others that there will be no new
infrastructure on the border, Jacob
Rees-Mogg says a border will be put
in place by the Republic of Ireland
if anyone. How will your border work
if tariffs are not the same north
and south of the border? About the
obvious reality is that probably the
EU will instruct one of its member
states to put infrastructure on the
United Kingdom Government
has made it clear that we would use
technology on the border, number
plate recognition, and in terms of
trusted traders to service goods. If
you travel to the Swiss border, the
Swiss border as five borders with
five other nations, and it is not as
You are saying there will
be new infrastructure on the border?
So exactly as it is,
We already have precise
numberplate recognition systems, but
more importantly the Irish
government will be forced, as a
member state of the EU, to a wrecked
stuff on the border.
hauliers who are concerned about
There will be an order coming
through which will address haulage
and licenses, coming up in
Parliament very soon.
has nothing to be concerned about?
In terms of haulage, no.
reassured by that?
The border is
very significant, and it has been
talked up by people who are engaged
in stirring party politics in the
south of Ireland.
You don't think
you have a slightly simplistic view
of what it is going to be like? That
is what your critics say.
I do not
believe it will be simple, but at
the same time I do not believe it
will be a great difficulty that
people want to portray.
is shaking his head, are you
persuaded by any... Ian Paisley has
conceded it will not be simple.
somewhere over the rainbow nonsense
about how perfect Brexit will be is
just nonsense. The fact is, Ian is
returning to his selection box of
bogus and the silly claims that were
given during the referendum
campaign, and we are getting them
reheated now. The fact is that most
people realise that Brexit is more
complicated than they thought, even
supporters of Brexit are realising
that. If we are going to get
answers, we have to get real answers
to real questions. Ian dismisses
every question, he also dismisses
every positive proposal and
dismisses it as interference in the
UK's position. It is clear the
December deal said it is up to the
British Government to come forward
with key proposals in a number of
areas, including in relation to
Ireland. I don't see them coming
forward with those proposals, and
there is an onus on democratic
Ireland to come forward with clear
proposals and show how the Good
Friday agreement can be used to
answer a lot of the Brexit
challenges, how we can boost the
economy into the future, not just in
the areas of existing co-operation,
but in all other areas in future.
Final quick question, would you like
to see the UK leave on WTO
arrangements, without a formal deal?
It is an option, but I would prefer
a bespoke deal, and it is better for
the EU to get that, and that is what
we are working towards. The old
point of this, I have a positive
attitude to what the United Kingdom
people have come to, we are better
doing these things outside of the
EU, rather than being tied by their
internal restrictions. Mark wants to
be part of a club because he is not
convinced the United Kingdom can cut
its own club outside of the EU.
Look, let's park that one for a
second, I want to ask you very
quickly about speculation that
Theresa May may be thinking about
involving herself in the process,
perhaps as soon as next week. What
are you hearing?
This has been the
Prime Minister's position for quite
some time, she is ready to come over
when it is necessary, and that is
Are we approaching
should have a word with some of the
people in your party, then, there is
a lot of speculation...
I am sure
there is, I read it in the
newspapers. I will wait and see what
happens. We have a negotiating team,
let them do their job.
Thank you both.
Sinn Fein's national chairperson,
Declan Kearney, has been accused
of being delusional by claiming
the civil rights campaign here.
Mr Kearney has said that the civil
rights movement was heavily
influenced 50 years ago
by the IRA
and Sinn Fein leaderships.
But Bernadette McAliskey,
who was herself a key player
in the civil rights campaign,
has told this programme that
Mr Kearney is wrong -
and guilty of "silly ramblings".
So who's right and who's wrong?
Our political correspondent
has been investigating.
There is battle lines being drawn...
# Nobody is right if everybody is
# Young people... #
The late 1960s were a key time,
protests on the streets, demands for
votes, jobs and houses, and change
was in the air.
was in the air. The civil rights
movement was formed, and it was a
turning point in history. 50 years
on, opinion is divided on what
exactly happened and who was
involved. Writing on a website,
Declan Kidney argued it was the
strategic decision of the IRA and
Sinn Fein leaderships that helped to
form the civil rights movement.
Republicans were involved, the IRA
and Sinn Fein leadership is
encouraged their activists to
organise and to campaign under the
umbrella of the civil rights
movement, alongside other Democrats,
other political activists, human
right activists, Communists and
trade unionists. So the role of
republicanism was central to the
emergence of the civil rights
movement, along with others.
Sinn Fein trying to claim a place in
history? Bernadette Devlin, as you
was then, was a leading figure in
the civil rights movement, later
becoming the youngest woman to
become elected to Westminster.
really don't have the political
space in my head, and I don't think
anybody should, to engage in the
delusional silliness of individual
ramblings that people have about the
So do you really think Declan
Kidney is delusional?
undoubtedly, with respect I think
the article that he wrote is
delusional, you know, and I say that
it has very little basis in reality.
We represent a stand for basic human
Eamon McCann was in the
civil rights campaign. Today he
questions Sinn Fein's recollection
of the time.
They are trying to
colonise history, claim every
advance, every bit of militancy over
the years, as their own, and of
course this isn't true, Sinn Fein
was attempting to portray
themselves, and, more importantly,
to portray the IRA as a natural
outgrowth of the civil rights
movement, which is certainly not
true. They are also trying to
pretend that they instigated the
civil rights movement.
that Sinn Fein are using the history
of the civil rights campaign to
justify the subsequent actions of
The civil rights movement
was about equality. The republican
movement commission pain and the IRA
were about Brits out and Irish unity
by force. So, you know, it is a
rewriting of history to pretend that
the republican movement fought a war
to get equality, they did not. They
fought a war to get the breads and
to unite Ireland, neither of which
they succeeded in doing.
So our Sinn
Fein laying claim to something they
have no right to buy suggesting the
party and the IRA were influential?
I haven't said that leading members
of the civil rights movement at that
point in time were exclusively IRA
or Sinn Fein activists. What I have
said is that the reality is that
Republican activists were involved
directly, with many others, in the
formation of the civil rights
The danger is people say
you are trying to claim ownership of
something that was not there at the
That is not the case, the
civil rights movement, through the
lens of historical objectivity, and
multiple parents and gave birth to
This week, Sinn Fein
continued to make remarks about the
civil rights campaign. This time, it
was Alex Maskey who tweeted,
unfortunately it took more than the
civil rights association to secure
rights in the putrid
rights in the putrid little statelet
Northern Ireland. It did not make an
impression with Bernadette
Whatever it is that he is
trying to say, he would want to say
that in a way that reflects some,
any depth of political thought or
understanding, rather than an
enveloped culture of opening your
mouth without any prior thought and
allowing abuse to fallout of it.
Aside from the arguments over what
happened 50 years ago, is there a
broader lesson to be learned? As
politicians grapple with what needs
to happen in the future, what can
they learn from the past?
on, the work of the civil rights
movement remains unfinished.
think that what the civil rights
movement taught me is that when
people of integrity, with the right
aims and with justice as their aim,
come together to achieve something,
the sky is the limit.
The lesson I
take from the civil rights movement
is that the major things we achieved
towards democracy in the North were
achieved by people power on the
I rarely look back, unless
I want to learn something from the
past. In order to do something
better for the future. If we look at
the work that has to be done in
Northern Ireland, it ill befits
anyone in this place to claim
Five decades on,
the history of the civil rights
movement still divides opinion. Much
has changed, but an agreed narrative
Stephen Walker reporting.
Plenty to discuss with our
and it's a warm welcome back
to Fionnuala O'Connor
and Alex Kane.
Welcome to you both. First of all,
let's have a word about the talks
that Brenda McCafferty was playing
us up your speakers. The suggestion
that Theresa May could be about to
come over here if the situation
presented itself for her presence
might make a difference. -- Enda.
What should be read into that if
anything at all?
We should think
about it and the idea that that that
might help as just so plainly daft.
If she has no authority
understanding in her own Government
and Cabinet, the ideas you could
come over here and have any
beneficial effect on to parties,
neither of whom have any time for.
The DUP protective because --
pretend to because they have this
deal with the Conservative Party but
I can believe that they are any more
impressed with her as a politician
and as a person with an authority
than her own Cabinet.
Do you get any
sense that the two main parties are
inching towards some kind of common
No, I do. They might well
be. They've made it hard for
themselves. -- no, I don't. They
both have set up things that look
impossible for them to overcome. It
could well happen. They could
produce something. It will be pretty
if they do.
That's right. The
problem with Theresa May, given the
nature of the relationship she has
with the GP I can't conceive of a
situation where she can turn up and
sell some industry and friend. The
relationship she has with DUP. The
issue with the language act, they
would both have been given so much.
Within unionism, there is no way on
God 's earth that DUP could sell a
stand-alone Irish language act.
not possible. Leo Varadkar would be
there as well if Theresa May was.
would have to. I remember when David
Cameron came over and had been
told... Then he realised. Absolutely
nothing, I can't conceive of
anything that they could come up
with at this stage and say, I'll
come on, Prime Minister, come and
have your input.
What did you make
about Ian Paisley's comments on a no
That was not
very intelligent. When you think
about how upset many unionists were
well beyond the DUP about the
mockery of the DUP fall the
Conservatives, much of which was
couched in mockery of shouting terms
like, no surrender, of red-faced
Orangemen marching and bolder hats,
somebody gets up in the House of
Commons and waves his order paper
and yells, no surrender. What I
think we saw there was somebody
reacting to the
reacting to the tweet that morning.
That tweet about burgers and Irish
opportunist. I think these are two
of the biggest exhibitionist in the
DUP. Off the pitch, not involved in
the talks, they are striving for
I think it was nonsense.
I think that he is right in terms of
the fact that the rib problem is
with Theresa May and the
Conservative Government. -- the real
problem is with. He forgets that the
idea of hardbody, hard Brexit, there
is a clash of identities. --
hardboard. The DUP cannot ignore
this, they cannot come out with this
idea of the worst office, man. --
the idea of toughness.
It was a daft
article, as well as a big whopper.
This is the Declan Kearney article?
Yes, it was scratched -- the
Republicans were involved but it
wasn't hers Sinn Fein, the leaders
said about the civil rights movement
as individuals, attempting to
influence, as when a debt -- as
Bernadette and Eamon, they were very
involved. Republicans were involved,
but not these Republicans. He is
guilty by omission of reframing
She nailed it, when she
said that Sinn Fein were trying to
colonise history. They are making it
up as they go along.
offensive. One of the leaders
afterwards said that he was sorry
afterwards that he did not shoot
Gerry Adams and call.
That's it from The View
for this week.
Join me for Sunday Politics
at 11:35am here on BBC One.
For now, though, we'll sign
off on a tranquil note
with some thoughtful,
reflective debate from
yesterday's session in the Dail.
It all began when the new system
of numbered cards for TDs hoping
to put questions to the Taoiseach
began to unravel -
and the Healey-Rae brothers
were in the middle of it.
Have you got a card?
Of course I
have, the same as you.
one-minute That's... That's
That other directors! We
not... It's a disgrace!
suspended house. -- Isis Bentley
house. Deputy, you will not speak to
the chair like
Join Mark Carruthers and guests on Thursdays for The View - the week's political news, comments and expert analysis. The View reports events at Stormont and Westminster and how they are affecting issues such as health and the economy. It follows the ups and downs of the political parties and debates the highs and lows of the political week. It also has an alternative view on the week's political headlines.