08/02/2018 The View

Are we at a critical stage

tonight in the negotiations

to get Stormont back?

There's speculation there could be

signs of movement on the hill.

We'll be trying to piece

the jigsaw together.

Welcome to The View.

Also tonight:

Brexit is back

on the agenda big time

and the border issue is once again

one of the major sticking points.

The DUP's Ian Paisley has called

for a "no surrender" approach

to the UK's neotiations with the EU,

but is it really that simple?

The North Antrim MP is with me,

and in our Foyle studio

is the former SDLP

leader, Mark Durkan.

Plus 60 years on, a row over who

inspired the civil rights campaign.

-- 50 years on.

I think that the article that Declan

Kearney Road is delusional. When I

say that, I say it is very little

basis in reality, in fact. Or into

humans.

The reality is that Republican

activists were involved directly

with many others in the formation of

the civil rights movement.

And taking ownership

of Commentators' Corner this week -

Fionnuala O Connor and Alex Kane.

But first tonight, the two

main parties have been

involved in talks this evening

at Stormont, with the prospect

of a second five-party

round-table session tomorrow.

But are we any closer

to a deal being done?

There have been some optimistic

noises from the Secretary of State,

Karen Bradley, and the Tanaiste,

Simon Coveney, and talk

of an agreement "within days".

So what are the chances?

With me now is our political

correspondent Enda McClafferty.

Well, Enda, speculation

that a deal could be

-- speculation that Theresa May like

the positioning herself to get

involved.

She has been criticised in

the past for having a hands-off

approach to the talks in Northern

Ireland. Response, Downing Street

have insisted that she was fully

briefed by the Secretary of State

for Northern Ireland and there was

money for calm. She has now put this

out as an option. -- there was no

need for her to come. If it is felt

that she is going to be able to

nudge DUP and Sinn Fein closer

together, she might come. There is

no sense outside the circle that we

are close to this point, or any kind

of intervention from Downing Street,

or doctrine, wiping the bodies -- or

Dublin might bring the parties to a

point unless the two parties agree

to hammer this out.

We had a guess

clusters denied that called for

Theresa May to be involved. To be

clear, we are saying she's willing

to get involved if that is going to

help the process forward. We are not

saying she's about to get involved.

We need to be clear about that. Leo

Varadkar has set in the past 30 and

the Prime Minister promoted with a

shoulder to the wheel if they felt

that would help the process. We are

not at this point yet. -- the Prime

Minister would put their shoulders

to the real. It is being talked

about in Downing Street, though.

Before it from both the DUP and Sinn

Fein today. The positions seem to be

that progress has been made but

significant gaps remain. Before it

is virtually every day now for

weeks.

That has been the position

all along because this process has

dragged on for more than a year. We

are in the place now where we were

last November when we were getting

positive sounds from the edges of

the talks process. Central to this,

at the heart of this, is a

stand-alone Irish language act. Sinn

Fein says there will be no deal

unless there is a stand-alone

Irishman would act and we know that

the DUP's position says Dimbleby no

deal if it involves a stand-alone

Irishman language act. -- says there

will be no deal. They keep leaving

the elephant out of any talks, and

this is when things fall apart, when

they talk about the Irish language

act. We haven't reached this crucial

stage yet.

We were supposed to have

five party talks today. Karen

Bradley push the to tomorrow. We

think this will happen tomorrow, not

exactly sure. -- pushed them back to

tomorrow. The three smaller parties

are pretty cheesed off with the way

they've been treated recently.

They

are being treated like political

cheerleaders. They are not going to

have any impact on the final result

of this political gain. It is

frustrating and heard that echoed

this week by Colum Eastwood from the

still be that he wasn't interested

in getting involved in some kind of

pretend process. -- Colum Eastwood

who said this week that he wasn't

interested.

We've missed another

milestone because David Stirling,

the head of the civil service that

he needed clarity on a budget by

today.

Sterling. Nigel Dodds has

said that on the other side of the

Westminster recessed, we are talking

up to a fortnight away. He thinks

that the Secretary of State, Karen

Bradley, should press ahead with his

budget plans. Great pressure behind

the scenes felt like all sin. Civil

servants. -- felt by all civil

servants.

Enda, thank you.

It's time for the Government

at Westminster to get tougher

with the European Union and adopt

a "no surrender" policy.

That's the view of the DUP's

Ian Paisley, at least.

Accusing Brussels of blackmail

and bullying, an impassioned

Mr Paisley invoked the spirit

of unionism to drive his point home

during Northern Ireland Questions

at Westminster yesterday.

And while it wasn't perhaps

the milestone that Karen Bradley had

originally predicted,

it did have its moments

of rhetorical flourish.

Now that the new team has had a

chance to find a way around,

particularly the border, and they

study the issue of the electronic

border, do they believe that such a

furniture is feasible or is it just

a fantasy?

The honourable gentleman refers to

the matter of the border. We are

determined they will be no new

physical infrastructure at the

border and we will maintain things

like the Common Travel Area, which

has been in existence since well

before the EU.

Is he not concerned

about the friction in relationships

between the UK Government and the

Irish Republic and what comment as

he got to make about the threat

issued by the Foreign Minister

yesterday that he will block

negotiations if it does not get

legislation to force the Northern

Ireland Assembly to introduce EU

regulations?

As far as our

relationship with rather long, it

goes back to entries. Trade,

geography, history, and so on. We

have an excellent working

relationship with Northern Ireland.

Does he agree that it's about time

that the Government chemistry did no

surrender attitude to the EU talks?

-- demonstrated a no surrender.

Fights, passion to register,

everything. Stand up to them, man,

stand up to the EU. Let's get on

with leaving the EU.

Ian Paisley in full flow there,

and he's with me in studio now.

And joining us from our Foyle studio

is the former leader

of the SDLP, Mark Durkan.

Ian Paisley, tell me more about this

"no surrender" attitude

you were calling for there.

How's that going to work exactly?

I think most people are sick, sore

and tired by the Government being

sold, if you like, pushed around

during the Brexit negotiations.

Which is people have decided that we

will leave the EU, all of the assets

we control, from fisheries, waters,

trading benefit, that all of that

should be turned to our advantage.

If we leave on the basis of a bad

deal and they cannot -- and I have

not advocating one, if we leave on

the basis that it is not a deal in

place, the EU loses just as much as

ours and the Republic of Ireland

loses the most. The British

Government at positive about this

and say they will get the best deal

possible.

That is what the British

Government has been sent. Theresa

May clarified today that the UK is

leading the single market and the

customs union.

What more do you

want? I have no objection to what

you said. We had Mr Barnier earlier

this week. The fight is a good

start, the pressure that was going

to be applied and that UK had taken

the wrong position. They are trying

to chastise the UK for treating a

determined position to leave the EU.

It is not Michel Barnier's job to

sit quietly because of what you

think.

It is perfectly valid for him

to make the argument that he wishes

that the UK would not leave.

He is

not entitled.

He has no

responsibility to make it easy for

the UK to leave.

He has the right to

make sure that the rest of the

missions are argued for. But he has

no right to saying that he objects

to the British taking a particular

decision. That has been the attitude

of the EU towards Britain. They look

at other countries might decide to

leave after the UK lease. That's

what frightens them the most. I

think they are trying to put the

frighteners on other countries to

the east, that they should not leave

the earful.

Does Michel Barnier have

the right to express his

disappointment in colourful terms of

the UK has decided to leave?

He does

have the right to talk straight and

frank terms. He also has to listen

to an awful lot of crude language

and all sorts of discussions and

exaggerations representing a

supposedly UK position. Describing

the UN all sorts of terms and

himself personally and also to

terms. -- the EU in all sort of

terms. It clear that the

negotiations that he and David Davis

have treated quite a number of

issues. Few of the ideas seem to be

coming from the EU Government side.

Ian is calling for a no surrender

approach. At the moment, there is a

no plan, no arguments and approach

from the UK. That creates a huge

problem for people like Michel

Barnier that attracted negotiate a

deal with UK to make sense of Brexit

and, so far as anybody can, in

everybody's interests. That creates

problems for the Irish Government.

They need to defend their own

interests, they wanted different --

they want to defend the whole

interests -- they want to defend the

interests of the whole island.

Isn't

it the case, Mark Durkan, that the

Irish Government is to be careful

how places because it's being

charged with interfering in the

internal affairs, the sovereign

affairs of the UK? Maybe it was too

much to say for itself.

I don't

think it has too much to say for

itself. The Irish fragment is in a

particular position with a land

border, -- the Irish Government is

any particular position with a land

border with the UK, Oracle

guarantors with the UK of the Good

Friday Agreement. After all, the

Brexit -- the Brexiteers are saying

that the Good Friday Agreement will

not be touched by Brexit. Then

whenever people try to use the

architecture of the Good Friday

Agreement, they are accused of

interference and upsetting the

constitutional integrity of the UK.

There is a democratic constitutional

integrity of the Good Friday

Agreement that has to be upheld and

the Irish Government should continue

to do that.

The Irish Times puts

today that it is hard to negotiate

with the British Government because

the British Government is still

negotiating with itself.

There is a

deliberate attempt... There is

issues within the Conservative

Party. But there is eight deliberate

attempt -- a deliberate attempt to

make the British Government reveal

its hand.

But it doesn't have a hand

at the moment, isn't that the

problem.

We have a strong hand as a

nation, I don't agree with that. We

are leaving the EU, the customs

union and the single market. Today

the Labour Party spokesman on trade

media group that if we were to stay

in the customs union we would not be

able to make the free trade

agreement with other countries

around the world. It's imperative

that we get on with this, all of the

issues that Mark campaigned for when

he was member of Parliament and

issues that I've campaigned for,

reducing VAT on fuel, tampon tax,

issues like that, all of those taxes

were kept in place by the EU.

Leaving the EU allows us to remove

things that create poverty in our

nation.

When you look at the Treasury

figures released this week, leaked

this week, they point to a big

slowdown in economic growth over the

next 15 years. Are you not concerned

about that?

A 15 year forecast is

astrology! The Bank of England made

a forecast this time last year, and

it has changed and four times in 12

months. You are expecting me to

believe a forecast for 15 years?

What if it is true?

It is not.

Four

parts of the EU would see a

double-digit slowdown in GDP.

Northern Ireland sells £78 billion

worth of goods, £48 billion with

sold in turn lead within Northern

Ireland.

Why would you leave the

biggest trading bloc in the world?

The remainder goes to the United

Kingdom. How on earth could we lose

out on internal trade when most of

our sales are internal to our

market? The United Kingdom is the

biggest market for Northern Ireland,

so that forecast is nonsense,

astrology.

Astrology, Mark Durkan?

That is what Ian wants to say to

dismiss these forecasts, because he

does not like them. We are in a

situation where the UK's trading

arrangements with Europe are going

to be up in the air. Ian says there

will be other trade deals, but it is

not clear where we will get them,

offsetting the loss of value in

terms of European trade. We have

more and more sectors waking up to

the dangers of Brexit for them - the

haulage sector most recently

realising that the legislation that

the British and are bringing forward

will place huge restrictions on

them. The British Government are

bringing forward. It could impose

restrictions on the industry

locally.

On a sector that you

campaign for, fuel poverty, whenever

you voted in 2009 to try and reduce

VAT on fuel, you were not allowed,

it was brought down to 5%, you will

not allowed to take it to zero

because of the EU. Whenever we leave

the EU, we can scrap VAT in total

for all of our people. And you are

stopped from doing that.

Frankly,

the UK Government are saying they

will not do that. The fact is that

we have governments to have at times

protected that they did not have

discretion in relation to be 80

whenever they had a lot more

discretion that they did. -- in

relation to VAT.

No.

In relation to

hospitality, fuel, UK minister

saying they could not reduce it.

Air

passenger duty, we couldn't reduce

that because of the UK.

The point is

that there are wider economic issues

at stake in relation to this, and of

course the implications here locally

not just in terms of the border,

customs and trade terms, it is also

the dangers of borderism, more and

more different terms over the years,

going against the grain and the

direction of travel under the

agreement.

Let's look forward and

say that in a year's time, just over

a year, the UK leaves the EU - what

will the border look like? We are

hearing from Karen Bradley and

others that there will be no new

infrastructure on the border, Jacob

Rees-Mogg says a border will be put

in place by the Republic of Ireland

if anyone. How will your border work

if tariffs are not the same north

and south of the border? About the

obvious reality is that probably the

EU will instruct one of its member

states to put infrastructure on the

border.

United Kingdom Government

has made it clear that we would use

technology on the border, number

plate recognition, and in terms of

trusted traders to service goods. If

you travel to the Swiss border, the

Swiss border as five borders with

five other nations, and it is not as

complex.

You are saying there will

be new infrastructure on the border?

Numberplate recognition?

We already

have that.

So exactly as it is,

then?

We already have precise

numberplate recognition systems, but

more importantly the Irish

government will be forced, as a

member state of the EU, to a wrecked

stuff on the border.

What about

hauliers who are concerned about

this?

There will be an order coming

through which will address haulage

and licenses, coming up in

Parliament very soon.

Mark Durkan

has nothing to be concerned about?

In terms of haulage, no.

Are you

reassured by that?

The border is

very significant, and it has been

talked up by people who are engaged

in stirring party politics in the

south of Ireland.

You don't think

you have a slightly simplistic view

of what it is going to be like? That

is what your critics say.

I do not

believe it will be simple, but at

the same time I do not believe it

will be a great difficulty that

people want to portray.

Mark Durkan

is shaking his head, are you

persuaded by any... Ian Paisley has

conceded it will not be simple.

This

somewhere over the rainbow nonsense

about how perfect Brexit will be is

just nonsense. The fact is, Ian is

returning to his selection box of

bogus and the silly claims that were

given during the referendum

campaign, and we are getting them

reheated now. The fact is that most

people realise that Brexit is more

complicated than they thought, even

supporters of Brexit are realising

that. If we are going to get

answers, we have to get real answers

to real questions. Ian dismisses

every question, he also dismisses

every positive proposal and

dismisses it as interference in the

UK's position. It is clear the

December deal said it is up to the

British Government to come forward

with key proposals in a number of

areas, including in relation to

Ireland. I don't see them coming

forward with those proposals, and

there is an onus on democratic

Ireland to come forward with clear

proposals and show how the Good

Friday agreement can be used to

answer a lot of the Brexit

challenges, how we can boost the

economy into the future, not just in

the areas of existing co-operation,

but in all other areas in future.

Final quick question, would you like

to see the UK leave on WTO

arrangements, without a formal deal?

It is an option, but I would prefer

a bespoke deal, and it is better for

the EU to get that, and that is what

we are working towards. The old

point of this, I have a positive

attitude to what the United Kingdom

people have come to, we are better

doing these things outside of the

EU, rather than being tied by their

internal restrictions. Mark wants to

be part of a club because he is not

convinced the United Kingdom can cut

its own club outside of the EU.

Look, let's park that one for a

second, I want to ask you very

quickly about speculation that

Theresa May may be thinking about

involving herself in the process,

perhaps as soon as next week. What

are you hearing?

This has been the

Prime Minister's position for quite

some time, she is ready to come over

when it is necessary, and that is

just speculation.

Are we approaching

that stage?

No idea.

Gosh, you

should have a word with some of the

people in your party, then, there is

a lot of speculation...

I am sure

there is, I read it in the

newspapers. I will wait and see what

happens. We have a negotiating team,

let them do their job.

Thank you both.

Sinn Fein's national chairperson,

Declan Kearney, has been accused

of being delusional by claiming

republicans inspired

the civil rights campaign here.

Mr Kearney has said that the civil

rights movement was heavily

influenced 50 years ago

by the IRA

and Sinn Fein leaderships.

But Bernadette McAliskey,

who was herself a key player

in the civil rights campaign,

has told this programme that

Mr Kearney is wrong -

and guilty of "silly ramblings".

So who's right and who's wrong?

Our political correspondent

Stephen Walker

has been investigating.

There is battle lines being drawn...

# Nobody is right if everybody is

wrong

# Young people... #

The late 1960s were a key time,

protests on the streets, demands for

votes, jobs and houses, and change

was in the air.

was in the air. The civil rights

movement was formed, and it was a

turning point in history. 50 years

on, opinion is divided on what

exactly happened and who was

involved. Writing on a website,

Declan Kidney argued it was the

strategic decision of the IRA and

Sinn Fein leaderships that helped to

form the civil rights movement.

Republicans were involved, the IRA

and Sinn Fein leadership is

encouraged their activists to

organise and to campaign under the

umbrella of the civil rights

movement, alongside other Democrats,

other political activists, human

right activists, Communists and

trade unionists. So the role of

republicanism was central to the

emergence of the civil rights

movement, along with others.

So our

Sinn Fein trying to claim a place in

history? Bernadette Devlin, as you

was then, was a leading figure in

the civil rights movement, later

becoming the youngest woman to

become elected to Westminster.

I

really don't have the political

space in my head, and I don't think

anybody should, to engage in the

delusional silliness of individual

ramblings that people have about the

past.

So do you really think Declan

Kidney is delusional?

Yes,

undoubtedly, with respect I think

the article that he wrote is

delusional, you know, and I say that

it has very little basis in reality.

We represent a stand for basic human

rights...

Eamon McCann was in the

civil rights campaign. Today he

questions Sinn Fein's recollection

of the time.

They are trying to

colonise history, claim every

advance, every bit of militancy over

the years, as their own, and of

course this isn't true, Sinn Fein

was attempting to portray

themselves, and, more importantly,

to portray the IRA as a natural

outgrowth of the civil rights

movement, which is certainly not

true. They are also trying to

pretend that they instigated the

civil rights movement.

Others insist

that Sinn Fein are using the history

of the civil rights campaign to

justify the subsequent actions of

the IRA.

The civil rights movement

was about equality. The republican

movement commission pain and the IRA

were about Brits out and Irish unity

by force. So, you know, it is a

rewriting of history to pretend that

the republican movement fought a war

to get equality, they did not. They

fought a war to get the breads and

to unite Ireland, neither of which

they succeeded in doing.

So our Sinn

Fein laying claim to something they

have no right to buy suggesting the

party and the IRA were influential?

I haven't said that leading members

of the civil rights movement at that

point in time were exclusively IRA

or Sinn Fein activists. What I have

said is that the reality is that

Republican activists were involved

directly, with many others, in the

formation of the civil rights

movement.

The danger is people say

you are trying to claim ownership of

something that was not there at the

time.

That is not the case, the

civil rights movement, through the

lens of historical objectivity, and

multiple parents and gave birth to

many children.

This week, Sinn Fein

continued to make remarks about the

civil rights campaign. This time, it

was Alex Maskey who tweeted,

unfortunately it took more than the

civil rights association to secure

rights in the putrid

rights in the putrid little statelet

Northern Ireland. It did not make an

impression with Bernadette

McAliskey.

Whatever it is that he is

trying to say, he would want to say

that in a way that reflects some,

any depth of political thought or

understanding, rather than an

enveloped culture of opening your

mouth without any prior thought and

allowing abuse to fallout of it.

Aside from the arguments over what

happened 50 years ago, is there a

broader lesson to be learned? As

politicians grapple with what needs

to happen in the future, what can

they learn from the past?

50 years

on, the work of the civil rights

movement remains unfinished.

I do

think that what the civil rights

movement taught me is that when

people of integrity, with the right

aims and with justice as their aim,

come together to achieve something,

the sky is the limit.

The lesson I

take from the civil rights movement

is that the major things we achieved

towards democracy in the North were

achieved by people power on the

streets.

I rarely look back, unless

I want to learn something from the

past. In order to do something

better for the future. If we look at

the work that has to be done in

Northern Ireland, it ill befits

anyone in this place to claim

bragging rights.

Five decades on,

the history of the civil rights

movement still divides opinion. Much

has changed, but an agreed narrative

remains elusive.

Stephen Walker reporting.

Plenty to discuss with our

commentators tonight,

and it's a warm welcome back

to Fionnuala O'Connor

and Alex Kane.

Welcome to you both. First of all,

let's have a word about the talks

that Brenda McCafferty was playing

us up your speakers. The suggestion

that Theresa May could be about to

come over here if the situation

presented itself for her presence

might make a difference. -- Enda.

What should be read into that if

anything at all?

We should think

about it and the idea that that that

might help as just so plainly daft.

If she has no authority

understanding in her own Government

and Cabinet, the ideas you could

come over here and have any

beneficial effect on to parties,

neither of whom have any time for.

The DUP protective because --

pretend to because they have this

deal with the Conservative Party but

I can believe that they are any more

impressed with her as a politician

and as a person with an authority

than her own Cabinet.

Do you get any

sense that the two main parties are

inching towards some kind of common

ground?

No, I do. They might well

be. They've made it hard for

themselves. -- no, I don't. They

both have set up things that look

impossible for them to overcome. It

could well happen. They could

produce something. It will be pretty

if they do.

That's right. The

problem with Theresa May, given the

nature of the relationship she has

with the GP I can't conceive of a

situation where she can turn up and

sell some industry and friend. The

relationship she has with DUP. The

issue with the language act, they

would both have been given so much.

Within unionism, there is no way on

God 's earth that DUP could sell a

stand-alone Irish language act.

It's

not possible. Leo Varadkar would be

there as well if Theresa May was.

He

would have to. I remember when David

Cameron came over and had been

told... Then he realised. Absolutely

nothing, I can't conceive of

anything that they could come up

with at this stage and say, I'll

come on, Prime Minister, come and

have your input.

What did you make

about Ian Paisley's comments on a no

surrender approach?

That was not

very intelligent. When you think

about how upset many unionists were

well beyond the DUP about the

mockery of the DUP fall the

Conservatives, much of which was

couched in mockery of shouting terms

like, no surrender, of red-faced

Orangemen marching and bolder hats,

somebody gets up in the House of

Commons and waves his order paper

and yells, no surrender. What I

think we saw there was somebody

reacting to the

reacting to the tweet that morning.

That tweet about burgers and Irish

opportunist. I think these are two

of the biggest exhibitionist in the

DUP. Off the pitch, not involved in

the talks, they are striving for

attention.

I think it was nonsense.

I think that he is right in terms of

the fact that the rib problem is

with Theresa May and the

Conservative Government. -- the real

problem is with. He forgets that the

idea of hardbody, hard Brexit, there

is a clash of identities. --

hardboard. The DUP cannot ignore

this, they cannot come out with this

idea of the worst office, man. --

the idea of toughness.

It was a daft

article, as well as a big whopper.

This is the Declan Kearney article?

Yes, it was scratched -- the

Republicans were involved but it

wasn't hers Sinn Fein, the leaders

said about the civil rights movement

as individuals, attempting to

influence, as when a debt -- as

Bernadette and Eamon, they were very

involved. Republicans were involved,

but not these Republicans. He is

guilty by omission of reframing

history.

She nailed it, when she

said that Sinn Fein were trying to

colonise history. They are making it

up as they go along.

It is

offensive. One of the leaders

afterwards said that he was sorry

afterwards that he did not shoot

Gerry Adams and call.

That's it from The View

for this week.

Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11:35am here on BBC One.

For now, though, we'll sign

off on a tranquil note

with some thoughtful,

reflective debate from

yesterday's session in the Dail.

It all began when the new system

of numbered cards for TDs hoping

to put questions to the Taoiseach

began to unravel -

and the Healey-Rae brothers

were in the middle of it.

Goodnight!

Have you got a card?

Of course I

have, the same as you.

Hang on

one-minute kicks!

one-minute That's... That's

outrageous!

That other directors! We

were elected...

were elected...

Stop shouting.

It's

not... It's a disgrace!

Are

suspended house. -- Isis Bentley

house. Deputy, you will not speak to

the chair like