15/03/2018 The View


15/03/2018

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As the fallout continues

from dramatic claims about political

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transparency from Northern Ireland's

most senior civil servant.

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We ask: have our politicians been

keeping us in the dark?

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Tonight on The View:

What price transparency?

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I'll be asking MLAs past and present

if there really was a culture

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of secrecy at Stormont.

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Gareth Gordon has been assessing

the odds of a return

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to a devolved Assembly.

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I don't know. I wouldn't want to be

the bookmaker to take the odds on

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that at the moment, now.

It's a

cert. You could put your house on.

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We'll hear from Shane Harrison,

who's been running his eye over

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the form guide in Washington ahead

of St Patrick's Day.

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And just to prove there's

nothing new in politics,

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we unearthed one of the classics.

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So what is your problem?

Well, the

minutes aren't written yet.

I see.

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So, what should I do?

Write them,

dear man.

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And finally, with the inside track

on all of the above,

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columnists Alex Kane

and Fionnuala O'Connor are in their

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very own winners' enclosure.

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Hello.

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Not keeping records of meetings

between Stormont Ministers,

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their advisers and officials

was this week described by the Head

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of the Civil Service as "safer".

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The reaction to David Sterling's

comments disputes that.

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So where does that leave

the reputation of Stormont,

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in the shape of both the former

political incumbents,

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and the senior civil servants

who now run the place?

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With me to reflect on Mr Sterling's

comments are two former Ministers -

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the Ulster Unionist Danny Kennedy

and the Independent Claire Sugden,

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and the former Sinn Fein chair

of the Assembly's Finance Committee,

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Daithi McKay.

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Thank you for joining us tonight.

Claire Sugden did David Sterling's

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comments about an absence of

note-taking come as a surprise to

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you?

Yes because certainly the

department was always keen to be in

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the room with me and take notes.

Some circumstances I nearly had

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civil service on top of me. To be

honest, I felt that almost ruined

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the dynamic in meetings I had. I

think again David needs to clarify

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his comments because there's some

situations where it's maybe not

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appropriate to have as many civil

service in the room as would want to

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be.

Why would that be the case in

For example, as Justice Minister I

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was meeting with victims and they

were telling me personal stories. To

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have ten people sitting behind me

was intimidating.

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I had a note taker at the least in

the room with me to give me cover or

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something was said or I said outside

the room we had a record of that.

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Was there an occasion when a senior

civil service said to you, minister,

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it might be bet are for all sorts of

reasons not to put everything down

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on-the-record because the last thing

you would want would be an FoI

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request or inquiry application which

would then reveal something that you

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might not want to be in the public

domain. Did that conversation ever

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happen?

Not a senior civil service,

no, but a low grade civil service

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into my ministry reminded me that

any comment I made in submission

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papers or anything I said would be

subject to FoI. I don't think it was

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to encourage any secrecy or lack of

transparency. If anything it

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encouraged me to be more thoughtful

about what I put down in those

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submission papers. We have to be

mindful around this, the debate on

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the FoI when requests are asked for

they are very much asked about

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specific pieces of information.

Policy a long development process. A

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piece of paper can be taken out of

context in terms of the wider debate

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around that. . Reflecting on it now.

Do you think there was ever a

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circumstance when you as a minister,

in a meeting, that you knew was

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being noted, held back from saying

something which you didn't want

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subsequently to be on the public

record? No. I wouldn't have felt

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that I held back in anyway. I didn't

really feel I needed to. I had

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nothing to hide Serge as a minister.

I uphold that value of transparency.

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No, certainly, I'm not perfect. I

rely on my civil servants to give me

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information and my perspectives may

not have been correct. I wouldn't

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have say everything floating around

in my head.

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I was mindful about what I was

trying to do. That was trying to do

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a good job and be as diligent as I

could be not to discourage

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transparency.

David Sterling said

that in his experience it was fairly

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common across all departments that

notes would not necessarily be

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taken. So that they were not

recoverable at a later stage. Was

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that a surprise to you to hear?

It

was an interesting contribution. My

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initial take on it was that David

was trying to create a distraction

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to ensure the focus of the session,

in terms of his involvement with

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RHI, that wassic taen away. But I

think I agree that he has to clarify

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what he means. He said a culture

developed. Was it by ministerial

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direction or was it the senior civil

servants acting in response to the

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political situation? This is an

important point because the public

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has to remember as well that the

performance of ministers doesn't

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only reflect on the ministers and

their parties but the senior civil

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servants and their future career

prospects. It may be the case that

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civil servants took it upon

themselves to do this rather than

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the politicians. We don't not know

at this stage.

What about Sinn

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Fein's involvement. David Sterling

said it was common across all

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departments, in the evidence he was

giving he said it was particularly

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the case with the two main parties.

The DUP and Sinn Fein?

His comments

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are aimed towards the two main

parties. I think it's important now

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that he follows through on this. The

Information Commissioner is also

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wanting to hear further

clarification from imhad. I don't

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think it's good enough for David to

hide behind the fact there is an RHI

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inquiry going on his comments have

wider ramifify cautions.s if

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ministers need to be named he needs

to name them.

People were surprised

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how upfront he was in the comments

that he gave. If there was a

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criticism or a surprise expressed it

was at the fact he was quite so

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open?

Yesterday on the other hand

today there have been many questions

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in regard to this. He hasn't come

forward clarify.

He is in America at

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the moment.

Given the level of

public importance on this, I think

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there is a duty on him to clarify

this as soon as possible.

Of course.

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He is due to appear before the RHI

inquiry again in due course. If you

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were surprised, Mr Sterling made

comments be quite openly this time.

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During the Finance Committee's Nama

inquiry in 2015, you were the chair

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of the committee at that time, you

will recall no doubt that he

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admitted civil servants, "need to be

more consistent in our approach toic

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itting notes of meetings." He said

it all before?

He had said it before

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at that time. At that time Nama in

the South were taking minutes of the

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meetings with DFP, but DFP were not

taking minutes. Because there were

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so many questions about the Nama

issues at that time it got lost in

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the undergrowth. He made reference

to the fact that his minister at

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that time, I think it was Arlene

Foster, had actually made the

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proposal that further minutes should

be taken. He actually agreed with

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that. I think there is still so many

questions around this, it just needs

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to be clarified before we can point

the finger at anybody.

It opens a

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whole can of worms. A lot of people

were very surprised at what David

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Sterling had to say even though he

had suggested it, it was the case in

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certain circumstances before, as

we've discussed, back in November

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2015. You were a minister for some

time in the Executive before. Were

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you a ware of civil servants not

noting minutes you were involved in

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for fear of subsequent recovery?

No,

my clear recollection is I neither

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sought that records would not be

taken, nor did at any stage nicenor

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civil servant or any civil servant

of any rank suggest to me it might

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be a good idea that people stop

writing.

Was it ever pointed out to

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you, as it was to Claire Sugden, you

needed to be mindful of the fact

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anything you write on a paper could

be recoverable under an FoI request?

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Of course. I think it's important to

distinguish between any discussion

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that is are held within a meeting.

But discussions are discussions,

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they are not decisions. I think when

we talk about minutes I think we

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more properly describe them as

records of meetings because they

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would normally reflect outcomes and

actual decisions which I think is

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altogether different to having

widespread discussions.

Well, it's

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just interesting, if you read the

civil servants guide "meeting notes

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are intended to record accurately

any decisions taking or undertakings

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made by the minister." Reagreed by

that "they may summarise the main

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facts and arguments used during that

meeting" that's the critical point,

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isn't it?

Yes. That would normally

have happened through submissions

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which would have been written up and

brought to the minister for his or

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her consideration. Mindful of the

earlier discussion, those sub

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missions would reflect either the

minister's view or, in certain

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contentious issues, an alternative

view, leaving it clear for a

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minister to make the ultimate

decision. So there's nothing wrong

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with that. I think the concerns that

we have, that I have, with the David

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Sterling's remarks are that it

strikes, or it seems to query the

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independence of the Northern Ireland

Civil Service and also the openness

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and transparency of a local

administration. Of course we... The

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Westminster conventions should be

the one that is are followed. That

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is that whilst governments come and

go, whilst politicians are

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transient, the civil servants are a

constant. They have to reflect, not

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only the will of individual

ministers, or even government, but a

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consistency across and an even

handedness. I think the suggestion

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that David Sterling indicated

certainly there may have been some

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type of control freakry at a senior

level within the Executive needs

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further exploration.

Claire Sugden,

one former senior civil servant told

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this programme the practice was

widespread and very prevalent on the

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part especially of the DUP. What do

you make of that?

I can only speak

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for the Department of Justice, which

I will say is perhaps a

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differenclure to the other

departments because it we was

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devolved later than other

departments. The practices in

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Whitehall were practiced there

better than in other departments. I

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didn't interfere from the DUP or

Sinn Fein work in other departments.

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It wouldn't be appropriate to do

that. When we came together was at

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the Executive table there were notes

taken there. I think we need David

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Sterling to clarify his comments

here because it's quite a sweeping

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statement to make and I'm not sure

it's applicable to all meetings we

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had. As Danny has explained, it is

absolutely important to take a

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record. For your own cover, more

than anything else. I certainly

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wouldn't want someone I met saying

toe m that I said something I

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didn't.

I do say Mark, I don't agree

with Daithi's earlier contribution

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that suggested that David Sterling

was in some way starting another

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fire in a different part of the room

to distract on any other issue

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regarding RHI. I think David

Sterling is an experienced civil

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servant. A senior civil servant. The

acting head of the Northern Ireland

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Civil

Service, further clarification is

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required, I would stay well short of

accusing him of trying to cause any

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kind of real distraction.

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It will be interesting to

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It will be interesting to see what

comments or clarification he makes.

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I am sure he will dispute the

suggestion you just said. He said it

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was prevalent from the two main

parties, Sinn Fein has said that it

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is not the case as far as it is

concerned, Mairtin O Muilleoir said

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it was claptrap, so were you aware

of the DUP being involved in this?

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Do you think the former civil

servant who suggested it was

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prevalent on the part of the DUP has

it right?

My sense of the DUP during

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my time in the Assembly is that they

were defensive about issues, they

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didn't try for street processes with

the office of First Minister and

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Deputy First Minister so it isn't a

surprise that they haven't clarified

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their position, but there is a

suggestion that freedom of

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information legislation is being

interfered with because they are

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fundamental to political culture

here and transparency, so what this

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flag is up for me is that the

Freedom of information legislation

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needs to be strengthened.

David

Stirling pointed the finger at the

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two largest parties. Short of

further clarification, there are

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issues to be addressed and there

presumably is an opportunity for the

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civil service to get its act

together in advance of Stormont

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being resumed, however unlikely that

is.

I think it is an issue we will

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return to. We would have liked to

have been able to put these issues

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to a representative of the DUP but

the party declined to take part in

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this discussion. A spokesperson said

it is inappropriate that the DUP be

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asked to comment on issues that are

subject to a live public inquiry.

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Thanks for now, we'll come

back to you again later.

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Now, a former Irish diplomat has

said the British-Irish

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Inter-governmental Conference

will only be brought back as a "fall

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back position" and would be a sign

that Northern Ireland

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is in for a period of direct rule.

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Nationalists here and the Dublin

government have called

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for the return of the body,

which last met 11 years ago,

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to allow the two governments

to plot a way forward

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in the absence of devolution.

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Gareth Gordon has been looking

at the odds of Stormont coming back.

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For the British and Irish, the race

to restart devolution in Northern

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Ireland runs without end. Just when

they think they are in the final

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straight, they are dragged back to

the start.

My powers as Secretary of

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State for Northern are and are

limited. The scope of this house to

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pass legislation on devolved issues

is limited.

Compared to that,

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picking a winner at Chaston seems

easy. People who know about betting

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think Stormont is ably conducted.

I

think it's dead in the water, they

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need to bring the other parties in

to help negotiate.

What are the odds

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of Stormont coming back?

I wouldn't

take the odds on that.

It's not

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something to bet your house on, it

will never work with that crowd.

The

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options available to Karen Bradley

appear limited. Some form of light

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touch direct rule appears to be the

front runner, in front of a shadow

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Assembly. A British-Irish

Intergovernmental Conference seemed

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to be a safe bet although odds may

have lengthened after remarks by the

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Taoiseach. An Assembly and

full-blown direct rule remain

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outsiders. Whichever option Karen

Bradley puts money on, someone will

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attempt to put a in her way. Let's

look more closely at the options. A

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shadow Assembly would keep the

political class is busy until the

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real thing comes back. It's been

tried before, most notably in the

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1980s. It did not end well after

being dissolved by the government

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against unionist wishes.

The police

say 21 officers were injured, more

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than half required hospital

treatment. Police in the building

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were asked by the clerk of the

Assembly to clear the chamber. They

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cleared in and politicians were

thrown out.

It was mainly a DUP

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protest although I youthful Jeffrey

Donaldson was one of two Ulster

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Unionists also evicted.

I have two

members of my family murdered by the

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Provos and what do you do in return

for that? You throw me out of the

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forum for which I was elected.

The

other Ulster unionist member

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involved remembers it.

I remember a

police officer saying to me, do you

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want carried out or would you walk

out? I walked out with two policemen

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in front and two policemen behind

and they left me at the top of the

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steps with members who had been

carried out and some of them didn't

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do in a very dignified way but it

was an interesting experience.

An

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experience missed by the SDLP and

Sinn Fein, who boycotted that

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Assembly and didn't seem keen on

another.

The Secretary of State

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hasn't made detail available but the

idea we go into a talking shop while

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there is no movement on issues which

has caused the blockage is a waste

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of everybody's time.

The

transitional Assembly fared better.

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Its first day got off to a bad start

with an unwelcome visitor called

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Michael Stone.

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Michael Stone. The then Speaker

doubts the present government would

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repeat the exercise.

They thought

they would try this to keep the MLAs

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who were directly involved in

negotiations, to keep them thinking

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of themselves as parliamentarians

and they would have work to do in

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the Assembly, it would still be

alive thing. I think that is a good

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idea.

Nationalists want the

British-Irish Intergovernmental

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Conference, last held here 11 years

ago.

Devolved administration is the

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number-1 objective and if they

achieve that by another method, that

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is fine. I see the conference as a

fallback solution, it talks go well

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then you wouldn't want to antagonise

local parties, especially the DUP.

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If you had the conference it would

be a sign we are battening down for

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direct rule.

Whichever ever or she

backs, the Secretary of State may

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find that she cannot win.

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Gareth Gordon reporting.

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Let's hear what my guests

Danny Kennedy, Claire Sugden

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and Daithi McKay make of those odds

for a return to Stormont.

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Daithi McKay, if you were a betting

man, would you take a punt

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on the Assembly coming back

any time soon?

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I don't think so. In terms of the

pretend Assembly, I don't think

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Nationalists will touch that with a

barge pole, as far as the main

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nationalist parties are concerned

the only show in town is the

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intergovernmental conference.

You

have come a long way. Danny Kennedy,

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will you be pushing for a pretend

Assembly?

I'm still trying to come

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to terms with the crowd by Daithi

McKay about John Tait. I think what

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is more likely is more negotiations,

I think this suggestion I would have

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is that they be made multiparty and

not just to parties because that

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would lend some difference to it and

it might create a better atmosphere.

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You were optimistic that the process

can be reinvigorated sooner rather

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than later although it ended in a

complete shambles a few weeks ago.

I

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think there will be one more attempt

by the two governments to achieve

0:21:550:22:00

that, whether or not it is in the

two largest parties' interests to

0:22:000:22:07

have those negotiations, to widen

them out to other parties or stay

0:22:070:22:11

where they are with the Westminster

influence of the DUP and the

0:22:110:22:17

prospect of an Irish election for

Sinn Fein.

Claire Sundin, do you

0:22:170:22:23

think the people will stand for some

kind of transitional shadow

0:22:230:22:30

Assembly? They want people to get on

with their job or clear off and find

0:22:300:22:35

another job.

I think anything short

of an executive and the Assembly,

0:22:350:22:42

anything else would normalise the

situation and allow the other actors

0:22:420:22:49

involved, namely the British

government in terms of their

0:22:490:22:51

interest around Brexit, to let

Northern Ireland to go on this way.

0:22:510:22:57

People speak to me every day about

how frustrated the art that

0:22:570:23:03

institutions are not running because

it affects them day-to-day so I

0:23:030:23:08

worry this is another stopgap so

they can get on with the other

0:23:080:23:13

politics distracting them, and

perhaps now that the budget has been

0:23:130:23:17

passed at Westminster, maybe there

is a chance for talks because it

0:23:170:23:22

means the DUP have had an input into

a budget so maybe now they might get

0:23:220:23:28

back to talking.

We will find out in

due course if you are onto

0:23:280:23:35

something. Thank you all for joining

us.

0:23:350:23:37

A St Patrick's Day

reception is taking place

0:23:370:23:39

in the White House this evening.

0:23:390:23:41

Earlier the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar,

met Donald Trump for the traditional

0:23:410:23:43

shamrock ceremony in the Oval

Office.

0:23:430:23:45

So will a trip across the pond

help improve relations

0:23:450:23:47

between the parties after last

month's failed negotiations?

0:23:470:23:49

Shane Harrison is in Washington

for us this evening.

0:23:490:23:54

What's happening as we

speak, then, Shane?

0:23:540:24:00

The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has

just left the White House after

0:24:000:24:06

presenting Donald Trump with the

traditional bowl of shamrock. There

0:24:060:24:10

is a reception on going, not present

are the current leaders and deputy

0:24:100:24:16

leaders of Sinn Fein or the DUP but

Gerry Adams, the former Sinn Fein

0:24:160:24:23

leader, and Ian Paisley, the DUP MP

for North Antrim. The two men met

0:24:230:24:31

earlier, they discussed our

hardboard and Brexit and the

0:24:310:24:35

American president said he would

like to visit Ireland soon and that

0:24:350:24:40

he had a great property there. The

Doon Bay golf club.

And that golf

0:24:400:24:47

club and the association with Donald

Trump and Leo Varadkar now causing a

0:24:470:24:53

bit of a difficulty for Mr Rudd cart

because of previous contacts he had

0:24:530:24:58

with the now president a couple of

years ago.

Leo Varadkar surprised

0:24:580:25:05

many people in his speech at Capitol

Hill when he went off script as if

0:25:050:25:11

his sudden memory about a previous

contact with Donald Trump had come

0:25:110:25:15

to him and he remembered that four

years ago he was in London for R&B

0:25:150:25:22

weekend when Ireland played England

and he got a phone call from someone

0:25:220:25:26

saying Donald Trump wanted to talk

to him about planning permission, to

0:25:260:25:32

object to planning permission for up

wind farm. Leo Varadkar said he

0:25:320:25:38

contacted Clare county council and

the wind farm was refused. He says

0:25:380:25:44

he wasn't responsible for that bit

of Donald Trump wants to give him

0:25:440:25:49

credit, he will accept that. Clare

county council say they have no

0:25:490:25:54

record of Leo Varadkar's

intervention.

What about the

0:25:540:26:01

appointment of a new US peace envoy?

There had been speculation that

0:26:010:26:08

perhaps to Donald Trump would

announce the appointment of at UN

0:26:080:26:16

special envoy. He didn't seem that

keen on it, American encouragement

0:26:160:26:22

but no need for an honest broker.

This was an issue I spoke too with

0:26:220:26:29

Congressman Richie Neal, who was a

Democrat and friend of Ireland, and

0:26:290:26:33

I asked where we stood with regard

to this.

In September I spoke to the

0:26:330:26:41

president who indicated to me he

intended Philippe to do that and

0:26:410:26:45

later General Kelly confirmed they

intended to do that. There has been

0:26:450:26:51

a delay with the process but I

understand they renewed their

0:26:510:26:54

interest and expect to go forward.

When do we expect an announcement?

0:26:540:27:02

The White House say every day is a

challenge, they seem to start with

0:27:020:27:08

intentions but get derailed by

another issue.

Might the fact that

0:27:080:27:14

Rex Tillerson is no longer Secretary

of State complicate it?

He confirmed

0:27:140:27:21

that it was the Trump

Administration's position that they

0:27:210:27:24

would appoint an envoy.

Leo Varadkar

it didn't seem too keen on envoy, he

0:27:240:27:31

said he was looking for

encouragement but not an honest

0:27:310:27:34

broker.

There might be an argument

that suggests differences between

0:27:340:27:42

the parties now are relatively small

compared to what they were 25 years

0:27:420:27:46

ago so he might be saying that

nurturing might be what they are

0:27:460:27:53

interested in, at the same time I

think getting those institutions up

0:27:530:27:58

and running in a representative

democracy are critical.

Who does

0:27:580:28:05

Irish America blame for this

impasse?

Irish America would

0:28:050:28:11

indicate the DUP is responsible for

the delay and I think Irish America

0:28:110:28:15

play an important role in offering

dimension to the success of the Good

0:28:150:28:20

Friday Agreement.

0:28:200:28:23

What happens over the neck couple of

days?

The Taoiseach will meet the US

0:28:230:28:29

Vice-President Mike Pence there is

Irish media interest in that. Mike

0:28:290:28:33

Pence is not noted for his support

of gay rights. Leo Varadkar has been

0:28:330:28:39

referencing his support for gay

rights, for same-sex marriage. There

0:28:390:28:42

is a lot of interest in that. Later

on in the day he will head to New

0:28:420:28:46

York where of course there is the

big

0:28:460:28:52

St Patrick parade on Saturday.

. You

very much .thank indeed.

0:28:520:28:58

Let's hear from tonight's

commentators, Fionnuala

0:28:580:29:00

O'Connor and Alex Kane.

0:29:000:29:02

Welcome to you both. Good to have

you back. Let's talk about

0:29:020:29:07

transparency in government first of

all. Fionnuala, how big an issue is

0:29:070:29:14

it that Davidster Sterling said what

had he said at the RHI inquiry?

It

0:29:140:29:17

seems to be a pretty big issue thchl

is the head of the civil certificate

0:29:170:29:24

advice behaving in a way that poses

as many questions about civil

0:29:240:29:27

servants as it does about

politicians. That is an easy

0:29:270:29:30

statement for him to make when he

suggests that the two main parties

0:29:300:29:35

were involved with no way of... The

two main parties suggested this

0:29:350:29:40

policy if they didn't actually

enforce it of discouraging minutes.

0:29:400:29:46

He didn't actually say - they said

you must do this. He suggested a

0:29:460:29:52

culture, I think that was the way he

put. It which leaves you to suppose

0:29:520:29:57

that civil servants decided off

their own bat that this was a way to

0:29:570:30:00

please the ministers. That they

would not go for minutes. Really,

0:30:000:30:05

that's a dreadful, very uncivil

servant position to take.

It could

0:30:050:30:09

equally be the case that it was the

ministers who decided that that's

0:30:090:30:13

the road they wanted to go down and

prevailed upon the civil servants

0:30:130:30:19

to.

Civil servants are supposed to

be masters and mistresses of clear

0:30:190:30:27

and logical pros. This was an owe

bake thing to say. It was also a

0:30:270:30:32

fairly shocking thing to say at the

moment we are told repeatedly that

0:30:320:30:36

civil servants are carrying

government. That we are lucky to

0:30:360:30:39

have them carrying government in

lieu of the politicians. I was taken

0:30:390:30:44

by the suggestion that might just

have been an intended as distraction

0:30:440:30:50

from the RHI inquiry, from David

Sterling's role in the RHI scheme.

0:30:500:30:55

It's a theory he floated. No

evidence to suggest -

What a weird

0:30:550:31:01

thing for a civil servant to be

doing.

The former senior civil

0:31:010:31:05

servant who we spoke to who said it

was indeed pretty prevalent

0:31:050:31:09

particularly on the part of the DUP

told us it's got a lot worse in

0:31:090:31:13

recent years. FoI began when the

government's position was to give

0:31:130:31:18

information. That turned around into

trying to not give the information

0:31:180:31:22

to members of the public.

What we

don't know for certain is how long

0:31:220:31:26

it's been going on. Certainly the

information seems to be that SDLUP,

0:31:260:31:31

and Alliance ministers are saying

they had no experience of it. They

0:31:310:31:34

didn't understand this. Did it

happen in 2016 when the DUP and Sinn

0:31:340:31:39

Fein cut their own deal.

Obviously

not. In the Finance Committee

0:31:390:31:44

inquiry into Nama in November 2015

David Sterling was then telling

0:31:440:31:49

Daithi McKay was a problem and they

needed to stop doing that.

I accept

0:31:490:31:55

that. It the doesn't seem to have

changed. The most extraordinary

0:31:550:31:58

thing about Sterling's comment was

that this seems to have been done to

0:31:580:32:03

spare the blushes of the Sinn Fein

and the DUP. That will they might be

0:32:030:32:07

doing or making unpopular decisions.

Thinking the unthinkable.

Given the

0:32:070:32:11

timing of this, Mark, two weeks

after Sinn Fein and the DUP falling

0:32:110:32:14

about over pieces of paper which

ended up being leaked. This man now

0:32:140:32:18

saying - we are keeping touch away.

. The whole idea is consist sent i

0:32:180:32:24

and continuity. We record this, but

won't bother with this. Say a new

0:32:240:32:31

minister comes in or disagreements

with the parties you need records.

0:32:310:32:34

If it will embarst ration a minister

further down-the-line, tough, that

0:32:340:32:37

is what politics is.

Let us tie it

into the other conversation about

0:32:370:32:44

whether or not transition/shadow

Assembly could be in the offing

0:32:440:32:46

sooner rather than later. If you

were a betting woman, would you take

0:32:460:32:49

a punt on that?

Oh, not for a

minute. It ties together in an odd

0:32:490:32:56

way, when you think of it. The

suggestion is that they we have to

0:32:560:32:59

have the Assembly back because civil

servants should not be left to run

0:32:590:33:03

government because this isn't right.

This isn't democratic. Meanwhile we

0:33:030:33:07

get this intervention by a civil

servants which makes us think, are

0:33:070:33:11

we so sure about the civil service?

What I do think is absolutely

0:33:110:33:15

unlikely is that there would be any

nationalist buy into this at all. As

0:33:150:33:21

again Daithi McKay said. Who would

will go back to that? This is

0:33:210:33:25

pre-Good Friday Agreement

proposition. No Executive, an

0:33:250:33:28

Assembly that is a talking shop.

Final thought on that. Nationalists

0:33:280:33:33

won't wear it, Alex

I don't think

anybody will wear it. The public

0:33:330:33:36

won't wear it. A real Assembly that

doesn't work. Even bring in a

0:33:360:33:43

pretend, that is crazy stuff.

We

will leave it there. Thank you both

0:33:430:33:46

very much.

0:33:460:33:50

That's it from The View

for this week.

0:33:500:33:52

Join me for Sunday Politics

at 11.35am, here on BBC One.

0:33:520:33:54

But we leave you tonight

with the observations of one

0:33:540:33:57

of Britain's finest civil servants

on what should - and should not -

0:33:570:34:00

be a matter of public record.

0:34:000:34:01

Good night.

0:34:010:34:02

What is your problem?

Well, the

minutes aren't written yet.

I see.

0:34:020:34:05

So what should I do?

Write them,

dear man.

The problem is, the Prime

0:34:050:34:12

Minister did try to suppress the

chapter, didn't he?

I don't know,

0:34:120:34:15

did he?

Didn't he, don't you

remember?

What I remember is

0:34:150:34:20

irrelevant Bernard. If the minutes

don't say he did, he didn't.

You

0:34:200:34:25

want me to fallify the minutes.

I

want nothing of the sort. It's up to

0:34:250:34:29

you Bernard, what do you want?

I

want to have a clear conscience.

A

0:34:290:34:34

clear conscience.

Yes.

When did you

acquire this taste for luxuries? The

0:34:340:34:39

purpose of minutes is not to record

events it's to protect people.

You

0:34:390:34:45

do not take notes if the Prime

Minister says something he did not

0:34:450:34:48

mean to say, particularly if it

contradicts something he has said

0:34:480:34:51

pub iically. But how do I justify

that?

You are his servant.

Oh, yes.

0:34:510:35:04

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