Mark Carruthers and guests review the week's political events from Stormont and Westminster and follow the highs and lows of the political week.
Browse content similar to 15/03/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
As the fallout continues
from dramatic claims about political | 0:00:01 | 0:00:04 | |
transparency from Northern Ireland's
most senior civil servant. | 0:00:04 | 0:00:09 | |
We ask: have our politicians been
keeping us in the dark? | 0:00:09 | 0:00:17 | |
Tonight on The View:
What price transparency? | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
I'll be asking MLAs past and present
if there really was a culture | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
of secrecy at Stormont. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:41 | |
Gareth Gordon has been assessing
the odds of a return | 0:00:41 | 0:00:44 | |
to a devolved Assembly. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:46 | |
I don't know. I wouldn't want to be
the bookmaker to take the odds on | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
that at the moment, now. It's a
cert. You could put your house on. | 0:00:50 | 0:01:00 | |
We'll hear from Shane Harrison,
who's been running his eye over | 0:01:00 | 0:01:02 | |
the form guide in Washington ahead
of St Patrick's Day. | 0:01:02 | 0:01:05 | |
And just to prove there's
nothing new in politics, | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
we unearthed one of the classics. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:08 | |
So what is your problem? Well, the
minutes aren't written yet. I see. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:13 | |
So, what should I do? Write them,
dear man. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:18 | |
And finally, with the inside track
on all of the above, | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
columnists Alex Kane
and Fionnuala O'Connor are in their | 0:01:21 | 0:01:23 | |
very own winners' enclosure. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:29 | |
Hello. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:30 | |
Not keeping records of meetings
between Stormont Ministers, | 0:01:30 | 0:01:32 | |
their advisers and officials
was this week described by the Head | 0:01:32 | 0:01:36 | |
of the Civil Service as "safer". | 0:01:36 | 0:01:43 | |
The reaction to David Sterling's
comments disputes that. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
So where does that leave
the reputation of Stormont, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
in the shape of both the former
political incumbents, | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
and the senior civil servants
who now run the place? | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
With me to reflect on Mr Sterling's
comments are two former Ministers - | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
the Ulster Unionist Danny Kennedy
and the Independent Claire Sugden, | 0:01:54 | 0:01:57 | |
and the former Sinn Fein chair
of the Assembly's Finance Committee, | 0:01:57 | 0:01:59 | |
Daithi McKay. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:03 | |
Thank you for joining us tonight.
Claire Sugden did David Sterling's | 0:02:03 | 0:02:08 | |
comments about an absence of
note-taking come as a surprise to | 0:02:08 | 0:02:10 | |
you? Yes because certainly the
department was always keen to be in | 0:02:10 | 0:02:14 | |
the room with me and take notes.
Some circumstances I nearly had | 0:02:14 | 0:02:19 | |
civil service on top of me. To be
honest, I felt that almost ruined | 0:02:19 | 0:02:23 | |
the dynamic in meetings I had. I
think again David needs to clarify | 0:02:23 | 0:02:29 | |
his comments because there's some
situations where it's maybe not | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
appropriate to have as many civil
service in the room as would want to | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
be. Why would that be the case in
For example, as Justice Minister I | 0:02:35 | 0:02:40 | |
was meeting with victims and they
were telling me personal stories. To | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
have ten people sitting behind me
was intimidating. | 0:02:43 | 0:02:46 | |
I had a note taker at the least in
the room with me to give me cover or | 0:02:46 | 0:02:52 | |
something was said or I said outside
the room we had a record of that. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:56 | |
Was there an occasion when a senior
civil service said to you, minister, | 0:02:56 | 0:02:59 | |
it might be bet are for all sorts of
reasons not to put everything down | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
on-the-record because the last thing
you would want would be an FoI | 0:03:03 | 0:03:09 | |
request or inquiry application which
would then reveal something that you | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
might not want to be in the public
domain. Did that conversation ever | 0:03:12 | 0:03:16 | |
happen? Not a senior civil service,
no, but a low grade civil service | 0:03:16 | 0:03:21 | |
into my ministry reminded me that
any comment I made in submission | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
papers or anything I said would be
subject to FoI. I don't think it was | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
to encourage any secrecy or lack of
transparency. If anything it | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
encouraged me to be more thoughtful
about what I put down in those | 0:03:35 | 0:03:39 | |
submission papers. We have to be
mindful around this, the debate on | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
the FoI when requests are asked for
they are very much asked about | 0:03:44 | 0:03:49 | |
specific pieces of information.
Policy a long development process. A | 0:03:49 | 0:03:53 | |
piece of paper can be taken out of
context in terms of the wider debate | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
around that. . Reflecting on it now.
Do you think there was ever a | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
circumstance when you as a minister,
in a meeting, that you knew was | 0:04:00 | 0:04:06 | |
being noted, held back from saying
something which you didn't want | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
subsequently to be on the public
record? No. I wouldn't have felt | 0:04:08 | 0:04:12 | |
that I held back in anyway. I didn't
really feel I needed to. I had | 0:04:12 | 0:04:17 | |
nothing to hide Serge as a minister.
I uphold that value of transparency. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:23 | |
No, certainly, I'm not perfect. I
rely on my civil servants to give me | 0:04:23 | 0:04:28 | |
information and my perspectives may
not have been correct. I wouldn't | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
have say everything floating around
in my head. | 0:04:30 | 0:04:32 | |
I was mindful about what I was
trying to do. That was trying to do | 0:04:32 | 0:04:37 | |
a good job and be as diligent as I
could be not to discourage | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
transparency. David Sterling said
that in his experience it was fairly | 0:04:40 | 0:04:49 | |
common across all departments that
notes would not necessarily be | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
taken. So that they were not
recoverable at a later stage. Was | 0:04:53 | 0:04:57 | |
that a surprise to you to hear? It
was an interesting contribution. My | 0:04:57 | 0:05:01 | |
initial take on it was that David
was trying to create a distraction | 0:05:01 | 0:05:06 | |
to ensure the focus of the session,
in terms of his involvement with | 0:05:06 | 0:05:11 | |
RHI, that wassic taen away. But I
think I agree that he has to clarify | 0:05:11 | 0:05:17 | |
what he means. He said a culture
developed. Was it by ministerial | 0:05:17 | 0:05:23 | |
direction or was it the senior civil
servants acting in response to the | 0:05:23 | 0:05:28 | |
political situation? This is an
important point because the public | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
has to remember as well that the
performance of ministers doesn't | 0:05:31 | 0:05:35 | |
only reflect on the ministers and
their parties but the senior civil | 0:05:35 | 0:05:40 | |
servants and their future career
prospects. It may be the case that | 0:05:40 | 0:05:43 | |
civil servants took it upon
themselves to do this rather than | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
the politicians. We don't not know
at this stage. What about Sinn | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
Fein's involvement. David Sterling
said it was common across all | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
departments, in the evidence he was
giving he said it was particularly | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
the case with the two main parties.
The DUP and Sinn Fein? His comments | 0:05:57 | 0:06:02 | |
are aimed towards the two main
parties. I think it's important now | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
that he follows through on this. The
Information Commissioner is also | 0:06:05 | 0:06:10 | |
wanting to hear further
clarification from imhad. I don't | 0:06:10 | 0:06:14 | |
think it's good enough for David to
hide behind the fact there is an RHI | 0:06:14 | 0:06:20 | |
inquiry going on his comments have
wider ramifify cautions.s if | 0:06:20 | 0:06:25 | |
ministers need to be named he needs
to name them. People were surprised | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
how upfront he was in the comments
that he gave. If there was a | 0:06:28 | 0:06:34 | |
criticism or a surprise expressed it
was at the fact he was quite so | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
open? Yesterday on the other hand
today there have been many questions | 0:06:38 | 0:06:41 | |
in regard to this. He hasn't come
forward clarify. He is in America at | 0:06:41 | 0:06:45 | |
the moment. Given the level of
public importance on this, I think | 0:06:45 | 0:06:48 | |
there is a duty on him to clarify
this as soon as possible. Of course. | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
He is due to appear before the RHI
inquiry again in due course. If you | 0:06:51 | 0:06:59 | |
were surprised, Mr Sterling made
comments be quite openly this time. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:04 | |
During the Finance Committee's Nama
inquiry in 2015, you were the chair | 0:07:04 | 0:07:08 | |
of the committee at that time, you
will recall no doubt that he | 0:07:08 | 0:07:12 | |
admitted civil servants, "need to be
more consistent in our approach toic | 0:07:12 | 0:07:15 | |
itting notes of meetings." He said
it all before? He had said it before | 0:07:15 | 0:07:19 | |
at that time. At that time Nama in
the South were taking minutes of the | 0:07:19 | 0:07:25 | |
meetings with DFP, but DFP were not
taking minutes. Because there were | 0:07:25 | 0:07:29 | |
so many questions about the Nama
issues at that time it got lost in | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
the undergrowth. He made reference
to the fact that his minister at | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
that time, I think it was Arlene
Foster, had actually made the | 0:07:36 | 0:07:41 | |
proposal that further minutes should
be taken. He actually agreed with | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
that. I think there is still so many
questions around this, it just needs | 0:07:43 | 0:07:49 | |
to be clarified before we can point
the finger at anybody. It opens a | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
whole can of worms. A lot of people
were very surprised at what David | 0:07:53 | 0:07:58 | |
Sterling had to say even though he
had suggested it, it was the case in | 0:07:58 | 0:08:02 | |
certain circumstances before, as
we've discussed, back in November | 0:08:02 | 0:08:06 | |
2015. You were a minister for some
time in the Executive before. Were | 0:08:06 | 0:08:11 | |
you a ware of civil servants not
noting minutes you were involved in | 0:08:11 | 0:08:16 | |
for fear of subsequent recovery? No,
my clear recollection is I neither | 0:08:16 | 0:08:24 | |
sought that records would not be
taken, nor did at any stage nicenor | 0:08:24 | 0:08:30 | |
civil servant or any civil servant
of any rank suggest to me it might | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
be a good idea that people stop
writing. Was it ever pointed out to | 0:08:33 | 0:08:37 | |
you, as it was to Claire Sugden, you
needed to be mindful of the fact | 0:08:37 | 0:08:43 | |
anything you write on a paper could
be recoverable under an FoI request? | 0:08:43 | 0:08:48 | |
Of course. I think it's important to
distinguish between any discussion | 0:08:48 | 0:08:54 | |
that is are held within a meeting.
But discussions are discussions, | 0:08:54 | 0:08:59 | |
they are not decisions. I think when
we talk about minutes I think we | 0:08:59 | 0:09:04 | |
more properly describe them as
records of meetings because they | 0:09:04 | 0:09:10 | |
would normally reflect outcomes and
actual decisions which I think is | 0:09:10 | 0:09:16 | |
altogether different to having
widespread discussions. Well, it's | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
just interesting, if you read the
civil servants guide "meeting notes | 0:09:19 | 0:09:25 | |
are intended to record accurately
any decisions taking or undertakings | 0:09:25 | 0:09:29 | |
made by the minister." Reagreed by
that "they may summarise the main | 0:09:29 | 0:09:35 | |
facts and arguments used during that
meeting" that's the critical point, | 0:09:35 | 0:09:39 | |
isn't it? Yes. That would normally
have happened through submissions | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
which would have been written up and
brought to the minister for his or | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
her consideration. Mindful of the
earlier discussion, those sub | 0:09:46 | 0:09:54 | |
missions would reflect either the
minister's view or, in certain | 0:09:54 | 0:10:00 | |
contentious issues, an alternative
view, leaving it clear for a | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
minister to make the ultimate
decision. So there's nothing wrong | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
with that. I think the concerns that
we have, that I have, with the David | 0:10:07 | 0:10:16 | |
Sterling's remarks are that it
strikes, or it seems to query the | 0:10:16 | 0:10:22 | |
independence of the Northern Ireland
Civil Service and also the openness | 0:10:22 | 0:10:27 | |
and transparency of a local
administration. Of course we... The | 0:10:27 | 0:10:33 | |
Westminster conventions should be
the one that is are followed. That | 0:10:33 | 0:10:37 | |
is that whilst governments come and
go, whilst politicians are | 0:10:37 | 0:10:42 | |
transient, the civil servants are a
constant. They have to reflect, not | 0:10:42 | 0:10:48 | |
only the will of individual
ministers, or even government, but a | 0:10:48 | 0:10:55 | |
consistency across and an even
handedness. I think the suggestion | 0:10:55 | 0:11:04 | |
that David Sterling indicated
certainly there may have been some | 0:11:04 | 0:11:10 | |
type of control freakry at a senior
level within the Executive needs | 0:11:10 | 0:11:15 | |
further exploration. Claire Sugden,
one former senior civil servant told | 0:11:15 | 0:11:20 | |
this programme the practice was
widespread and very prevalent on the | 0:11:20 | 0:11:24 | |
part especially of the DUP. What do
you make of that? I can only speak | 0:11:24 | 0:11:28 | |
for the Department of Justice, which
I will say is perhaps a | 0:11:28 | 0:11:33 | |
differenclure to the other
departments because it we was | 0:11:33 | 0:11:36 | |
devolved later than other
departments. The practices in | 0:11:36 | 0:11:41 | |
Whitehall were practiced there
better than in other departments. I | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
didn't interfere from the DUP or
Sinn Fein work in other departments. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:46 | |
It wouldn't be appropriate to do
that. When we came together was at | 0:11:46 | 0:11:51 | |
the Executive table there were notes
taken there. I think we need David | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
Sterling to clarify his comments
here because it's quite a sweeping | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
statement to make and I'm not sure
it's applicable to all meetings we | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
had. As Danny has explained, it is
absolutely important to take a | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
record. For your own cover, more
than anything else. I certainly | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
wouldn't want someone I met saying
toe m that I said something I | 0:12:11 | 0:12:16 | |
didn't. I do say Mark, I don't agree
with Daithi's earlier contribution | 0:12:16 | 0:12:22 | |
that suggested that David Sterling
was in some way starting another | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
fire in a different part of the room
to distract on any other issue | 0:12:26 | 0:12:31 | |
regarding RHI. I think David
Sterling is an experienced civil | 0:12:31 | 0:12:35 | |
servant. A senior civil servant. The
acting head of the Northern Ireland | 0:12:35 | 0:12:43 | |
Civil
Service, further clarification is | 0:12:43 | 0:12:45 | |
required, I would stay well short of
accusing him of trying to cause any | 0:12:45 | 0:12:50 | |
kind of real distraction. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:55 | |
It will be interesting to | 0:12:56 | 0:12:58 | |
It will be interesting to see what
comments or clarification he makes. | 0:12:58 | 0:13:02 | |
I am sure he will dispute the
suggestion you just said. He said it | 0:13:02 | 0:13:07 | |
was prevalent from the two main
parties, Sinn Fein has said that it | 0:13:07 | 0:13:13 | |
is not the case as far as it is
concerned, Mairtin O Muilleoir said | 0:13:13 | 0:13:19 | |
it was claptrap, so were you aware
of the DUP being involved in this? | 0:13:19 | 0:13:25 | |
Do you think the former civil
servant who suggested it was | 0:13:25 | 0:13:29 | |
prevalent on the part of the DUP has
it right? My sense of the DUP during | 0:13:29 | 0:13:37 | |
my time in the Assembly is that they
were defensive about issues, they | 0:13:37 | 0:13:44 | |
didn't try for street processes with
the office of First Minister and | 0:13:44 | 0:13:50 | |
Deputy First Minister so it isn't a
surprise that they haven't clarified | 0:13:50 | 0:13:56 | |
their position, but there is a
suggestion that freedom of | 0:13:56 | 0:14:02 | |
information legislation is being
interfered with because they are | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
fundamental to political culture
here and transparency, so what this | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
flag is up for me is that the
Freedom of information legislation | 0:14:10 | 0:14:16 | |
needs to be strengthened. David
Stirling pointed the finger at the | 0:14:16 | 0:14:22 | |
two largest parties. Short of
further clarification, there are | 0:14:22 | 0:14:26 | |
issues to be addressed and there
presumably is an opportunity for the | 0:14:26 | 0:14:33 | |
civil service to get its act
together in advance of Stormont | 0:14:33 | 0:14:37 | |
being resumed, however unlikely that
is. I think it is an issue we will | 0:14:37 | 0:14:43 | |
return to. We would have liked to
have been able to put these issues | 0:14:43 | 0:14:49 | |
to a representative of the DUP but
the party declined to take part in | 0:14:49 | 0:14:54 | |
this discussion. A spokesperson said
it is inappropriate that the DUP be | 0:14:54 | 0:14:59 | |
asked to comment on issues that are
subject to a live public inquiry. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:07 | |
Thanks for now, we'll come
back to you again later. | 0:15:07 | 0:15:08 | |
Now, a former Irish diplomat has
said the British-Irish | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
Inter-governmental Conference
will only be brought back as a "fall | 0:15:10 | 0:15:13 | |
back position" and would be a sign
that Northern Ireland | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
is in for a period of direct rule. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
Nationalists here and the Dublin
government have called | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
for the return of the body,
which last met 11 years ago, | 0:15:19 | 0:15:22 | |
to allow the two governments
to plot a way forward | 0:15:22 | 0:15:24 | |
in the absence of devolution. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:25 | |
Gareth Gordon has been looking
at the odds of Stormont coming back. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:30 | |
For the British and Irish, the race
to restart devolution in Northern | 0:15:30 | 0:15:36 | |
Ireland runs without end. Just when
they think they are in the final | 0:15:36 | 0:15:41 | |
straight, they are dragged back to
the start. My powers as Secretary of | 0:15:41 | 0:15:47 | |
State for Northern are and are
limited. The scope of this house to | 0:15:47 | 0:15:52 | |
pass legislation on devolved issues
is limited. Compared to that, | 0:15:52 | 0:15:58 | |
picking a winner at Chaston seems
easy. People who know about betting | 0:15:58 | 0:16:03 | |
think Stormont is ably conducted. I
think it's dead in the water, they | 0:16:03 | 0:16:09 | |
need to bring the other parties in
to help negotiate. What are the odds | 0:16:09 | 0:16:15 | |
of Stormont coming back? I wouldn't
take the odds on that. It's not | 0:16:15 | 0:16:23 | |
something to bet your house on, it
will never work with that crowd. The | 0:16:23 | 0:16:30 | |
options available to Karen Bradley
appear limited. Some form of light | 0:16:30 | 0:16:35 | |
touch direct rule appears to be the
front runner, in front of a shadow | 0:16:35 | 0:16:40 | |
Assembly. A British-Irish
Intergovernmental Conference seemed | 0:16:40 | 0:16:46 | |
to be a safe bet although odds may
have lengthened after remarks by the | 0:16:46 | 0:16:52 | |
Taoiseach. An Assembly and
full-blown direct rule remain | 0:16:52 | 0:16:58 | |
outsiders. Whichever option Karen
Bradley puts money on, someone will | 0:16:58 | 0:17:03 | |
attempt to put a in her way. Let's
look more closely at the options. A | 0:17:03 | 0:17:11 | |
shadow Assembly would keep the
political class is busy until the | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
real thing comes back. It's been
tried before, most notably in the | 0:17:15 | 0:17:20 | |
1980s. It did not end well after
being dissolved by the government | 0:17:20 | 0:17:26 | |
against unionist wishes. The police
say 21 officers were injured, more | 0:17:26 | 0:17:33 | |
than half required hospital
treatment. Police in the building | 0:17:33 | 0:17:36 | |
were asked by the clerk of the
Assembly to clear the chamber. They | 0:17:36 | 0:17:42 | |
cleared in and politicians were
thrown out. It was mainly a DUP | 0:17:42 | 0:17:48 | |
protest although I youthful Jeffrey
Donaldson was one of two Ulster | 0:17:48 | 0:17:53 | |
Unionists also evicted. I have two
members of my family murdered by the | 0:17:53 | 0:18:01 | |
Provos and what do you do in return
for that? You throw me out of the | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
forum for which I was elected. The
other Ulster unionist member | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
involved remembers it. I remember a
police officer saying to me, do you | 0:18:12 | 0:18:20 | |
want carried out or would you walk
out? I walked out with two policemen | 0:18:20 | 0:18:26 | |
in front and two policemen behind
and they left me at the top of the | 0:18:26 | 0:18:31 | |
steps with members who had been
carried out and some of them didn't | 0:18:31 | 0:18:35 | |
do in a very dignified way but it
was an interesting experience. An | 0:18:35 | 0:18:43 | |
experience missed by the SDLP and
Sinn Fein, who boycotted that | 0:18:43 | 0:18:48 | |
Assembly and didn't seem keen on
another. The Secretary of State | 0:18:48 | 0:18:54 | |
hasn't made detail available but the
idea we go into a talking shop while | 0:18:54 | 0:18:59 | |
there is no movement on issues which
has caused the blockage is a waste | 0:18:59 | 0:19:05 | |
of everybody's time. The
transitional Assembly fared better. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:11 | |
Its first day got off to a bad start
with an unwelcome visitor called | 0:19:11 | 0:19:16 | |
Michael Stone. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:21 | |
Michael Stone. The then Speaker
doubts the present government would | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
repeat the exercise. They thought
they would try this to keep the MLAs | 0:19:24 | 0:19:33 | |
who were directly involved in
negotiations, to keep them thinking | 0:19:33 | 0:19:38 | |
of themselves as parliamentarians
and they would have work to do in | 0:19:38 | 0:19:43 | |
the Assembly, it would still be
alive thing. I think that is a good | 0:19:43 | 0:19:47 | |
idea. Nationalists want the
British-Irish Intergovernmental | 0:19:47 | 0:19:54 | |
Conference, last held here 11 years
ago. Devolved administration is the | 0:19:54 | 0:20:02 | |
number-1 objective and if they
achieve that by another method, that | 0:20:02 | 0:20:08 | |
is fine. I see the conference as a
fallback solution, it talks go well | 0:20:08 | 0:20:14 | |
then you wouldn't want to antagonise
local parties, especially the DUP. | 0:20:14 | 0:20:21 | |
If you had the conference it would
be a sign we are battening down for | 0:20:21 | 0:20:26 | |
direct rule. Whichever ever or she
backs, the Secretary of State may | 0:20:26 | 0:20:31 | |
find that she cannot win. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:32 | |
Gareth Gordon reporting. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:33 | |
Let's hear what my guests
Danny Kennedy, Claire Sugden | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
and Daithi McKay make of those odds
for a return to Stormont. | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
Daithi McKay, if you were a betting
man, would you take a punt | 0:20:38 | 0:20:42 | |
on the Assembly coming back
any time soon? | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
I don't think so. In terms of the
pretend Assembly, I don't think | 0:20:44 | 0:20:52 | |
Nationalists will touch that with a
barge pole, as far as the main | 0:20:52 | 0:20:57 | |
nationalist parties are concerned
the only show in town is the | 0:20:57 | 0:21:01 | |
intergovernmental conference. You
have come a long way. Danny Kennedy, | 0:21:01 | 0:21:11 | |
will you be pushing for a pretend
Assembly? I'm still trying to come | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
to terms with the crowd by Daithi
McKay about John Tait. I think what | 0:21:15 | 0:21:21 | |
is more likely is more negotiations,
I think this suggestion I would have | 0:21:21 | 0:21:31 | |
is that they be made multiparty and
not just to parties because that | 0:21:31 | 0:21:36 | |
would lend some difference to it and
it might create a better atmosphere. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:43 | |
You were optimistic that the process
can be reinvigorated sooner rather | 0:21:43 | 0:21:48 | |
than later although it ended in a
complete shambles a few weeks ago. I | 0:21:48 | 0:21:55 | |
think there will be one more attempt
by the two governments to achieve | 0:21:55 | 0:22:00 | |
that, whether or not it is in the
two largest parties' interests to | 0:22:00 | 0:22:07 | |
have those negotiations, to widen
them out to other parties or stay | 0:22:07 | 0:22:11 | |
where they are with the Westminster
influence of the DUP and the | 0:22:11 | 0:22:17 | |
prospect of an Irish election for
Sinn Fein. Claire Sundin, do you | 0:22:17 | 0:22:23 | |
think the people will stand for some
kind of transitional shadow | 0:22:23 | 0:22:30 | |
Assembly? They want people to get on
with their job or clear off and find | 0:22:30 | 0:22:35 | |
another job. I think anything short
of an executive and the Assembly, | 0:22:35 | 0:22:42 | |
anything else would normalise the
situation and allow the other actors | 0:22:42 | 0:22:49 | |
involved, namely the British
government in terms of their | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
interest around Brexit, to let
Northern Ireland to go on this way. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:57 | |
People speak to me every day about
how frustrated the art that | 0:22:57 | 0:23:03 | |
institutions are not running because
it affects them day-to-day so I | 0:23:03 | 0:23:08 | |
worry this is another stopgap so
they can get on with the other | 0:23:08 | 0:23:13 | |
politics distracting them, and
perhaps now that the budget has been | 0:23:13 | 0:23:17 | |
passed at Westminster, maybe there
is a chance for talks because it | 0:23:17 | 0:23:22 | |
means the DUP have had an input into
a budget so maybe now they might get | 0:23:22 | 0:23:28 | |
back to talking. We will find out in
due course if you are onto | 0:23:28 | 0:23:35 | |
something. Thank you all for joining
us. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:37 | |
A St Patrick's Day
reception is taking place | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
in the White House this evening. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
Earlier the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar,
met Donald Trump for the traditional | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
shamrock ceremony in the Oval
Office. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:45 | |
So will a trip across the pond
help improve relations | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
between the parties after last
month's failed negotiations? | 0:23:47 | 0:23:49 | |
Shane Harrison is in Washington
for us this evening. | 0:23:49 | 0:23:54 | |
What's happening as we
speak, then, Shane? | 0:23:54 | 0:24:00 | |
The Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has
just left the White House after | 0:24:00 | 0:24:06 | |
presenting Donald Trump with the
traditional bowl of shamrock. There | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
is a reception on going, not present
are the current leaders and deputy | 0:24:10 | 0:24:16 | |
leaders of Sinn Fein or the DUP but
Gerry Adams, the former Sinn Fein | 0:24:16 | 0:24:23 | |
leader, and Ian Paisley, the DUP MP
for North Antrim. The two men met | 0:24:23 | 0:24:31 | |
earlier, they discussed our
hardboard and Brexit and the | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
American president said he would
like to visit Ireland soon and that | 0:24:35 | 0:24:40 | |
he had a great property there. The
Doon Bay golf club. And that golf | 0:24:40 | 0:24:47 | |
club and the association with Donald
Trump and Leo Varadkar now causing a | 0:24:47 | 0:24:53 | |
bit of a difficulty for Mr Rudd cart
because of previous contacts he had | 0:24:53 | 0:24:58 | |
with the now president a couple of
years ago. Leo Varadkar surprised | 0:24:58 | 0:25:05 | |
many people in his speech at Capitol
Hill when he went off script as if | 0:25:05 | 0:25:11 | |
his sudden memory about a previous
contact with Donald Trump had come | 0:25:11 | 0:25:15 | |
to him and he remembered that four
years ago he was in London for R&B | 0:25:15 | 0:25:22 | |
weekend when Ireland played England
and he got a phone call from someone | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
saying Donald Trump wanted to talk
to him about planning permission, to | 0:25:26 | 0:25:32 | |
object to planning permission for up
wind farm. Leo Varadkar said he | 0:25:32 | 0:25:38 | |
contacted Clare county council and
the wind farm was refused. He says | 0:25:38 | 0:25:44 | |
he wasn't responsible for that bit
of Donald Trump wants to give him | 0:25:44 | 0:25:49 | |
credit, he will accept that. Clare
county council say they have no | 0:25:49 | 0:25:54 | |
record of Leo Varadkar's
intervention. What about the | 0:25:54 | 0:26:01 | |
appointment of a new US peace envoy?
There had been speculation that | 0:26:01 | 0:26:08 | |
perhaps to Donald Trump would
announce the appointment of at UN | 0:26:08 | 0:26:16 | |
special envoy. He didn't seem that
keen on it, American encouragement | 0:26:16 | 0:26:22 | |
but no need for an honest broker.
This was an issue I spoke too with | 0:26:22 | 0:26:29 | |
Congressman Richie Neal, who was a
Democrat and friend of Ireland, and | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
I asked where we stood with regard
to this. In September I spoke to the | 0:26:33 | 0:26:41 | |
president who indicated to me he
intended Philippe to do that and | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
later General Kelly confirmed they
intended to do that. There has been | 0:26:45 | 0:26:51 | |
a delay with the process but I
understand they renewed their | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
interest and expect to go forward.
When do we expect an announcement? | 0:26:54 | 0:27:02 | |
The White House say every day is a
challenge, they seem to start with | 0:27:02 | 0:27:08 | |
intentions but get derailed by
another issue. Might the fact that | 0:27:08 | 0:27:14 | |
Rex Tillerson is no longer Secretary
of State complicate it? He confirmed | 0:27:14 | 0:27:21 | |
that it was the Trump
Administration's position that they | 0:27:21 | 0:27:24 | |
would appoint an envoy. Leo Varadkar
it didn't seem too keen on envoy, he | 0:27:24 | 0:27:31 | |
said he was looking for
encouragement but not an honest | 0:27:31 | 0:27:34 | |
broker. There might be an argument
that suggests differences between | 0:27:34 | 0:27:42 | |
the parties now are relatively small
compared to what they were 25 years | 0:27:42 | 0:27:46 | |
ago so he might be saying that
nurturing might be what they are | 0:27:46 | 0:27:53 | |
interested in, at the same time I
think getting those institutions up | 0:27:53 | 0:27:58 | |
and running in a representative
democracy are critical. Who does | 0:27:58 | 0:28:05 | |
Irish America blame for this
impasse? Irish America would | 0:28:05 | 0:28:11 | |
indicate the DUP is responsible for
the delay and I think Irish America | 0:28:11 | 0:28:15 | |
play an important role in offering
dimension to the success of the Good | 0:28:15 | 0:28:20 | |
Friday Agreement. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
What happens over the neck couple of
days? The Taoiseach will meet the US | 0:28:23 | 0:28:29 | |
Vice-President Mike Pence there is
Irish media interest in that. Mike | 0:28:29 | 0:28:33 | |
Pence is not noted for his support
of gay rights. Leo Varadkar has been | 0:28:33 | 0:28:39 | |
referencing his support for gay
rights, for same-sex marriage. There | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
is a lot of interest in that. Later
on in the day he will head to New | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
York where of course there is the
big | 0:28:46 | 0:28:52 | |
St Patrick parade on Saturday. . You
very much .thank indeed. | 0:28:52 | 0:28:58 | |
Let's hear from tonight's
commentators, Fionnuala | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
O'Connor and Alex Kane. | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
Welcome to you both. Good to have
you back. Let's talk about | 0:29:02 | 0:29:07 | |
transparency in government first of
all. Fionnuala, how big an issue is | 0:29:07 | 0:29:14 | |
it that Davidster Sterling said what
had he said at the RHI inquiry? It | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
seems to be a pretty big issue thchl
is the head of the civil certificate | 0:29:17 | 0:29:24 | |
advice behaving in a way that poses
as many questions about civil | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
servants as it does about
politicians. That is an easy | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
statement for him to make when he
suggests that the two main parties | 0:29:30 | 0:29:35 | |
were involved with no way of... The
two main parties suggested this | 0:29:35 | 0:29:40 | |
policy if they didn't actually
enforce it of discouraging minutes. | 0:29:40 | 0:29:46 | |
He didn't actually say - they said
you must do this. He suggested a | 0:29:46 | 0:29:52 | |
culture, I think that was the way he
put. It which leaves you to suppose | 0:29:52 | 0:29:57 | |
that civil servants decided off
their own bat that this was a way to | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
please the ministers. That they
would not go for minutes. Really, | 0:30:00 | 0:30:05 | |
that's a dreadful, very uncivil
servant position to take. It could | 0:30:05 | 0:30:09 | |
equally be the case that it was the
ministers who decided that that's | 0:30:09 | 0:30:13 | |
the road they wanted to go down and
prevailed upon the civil servants | 0:30:13 | 0:30:19 | |
to. Civil servants are supposed to
be masters and mistresses of clear | 0:30:19 | 0:30:27 | |
and logical pros. This was an owe
bake thing to say. It was also a | 0:30:27 | 0:30:32 | |
fairly shocking thing to say at the
moment we are told repeatedly that | 0:30:32 | 0:30:36 | |
civil servants are carrying
government. That we are lucky to | 0:30:36 | 0:30:39 | |
have them carrying government in
lieu of the politicians. I was taken | 0:30:39 | 0:30:44 | |
by the suggestion that might just
have been an intended as distraction | 0:30:44 | 0:30:50 | |
from the RHI inquiry, from David
Sterling's role in the RHI scheme. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:55 | |
It's a theory he floated. No
evidence to suggest - What a weird | 0:30:55 | 0:31:01 | |
thing for a civil servant to be
doing. The former senior civil | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
servant who we spoke to who said it
was indeed pretty prevalent | 0:31:05 | 0:31:09 | |
particularly on the part of the DUP
told us it's got a lot worse in | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
recent years. FoI began when the
government's position was to give | 0:31:13 | 0:31:18 | |
information. That turned around into
trying to not give the information | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
to members of the public. What we
don't know for certain is how long | 0:31:22 | 0:31:26 | |
it's been going on. Certainly the
information seems to be that SDLUP, | 0:31:26 | 0:31:31 | |
and Alliance ministers are saying
they had no experience of it. They | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
didn't understand this. Did it
happen in 2016 when the DUP and Sinn | 0:31:34 | 0:31:39 | |
Fein cut their own deal. Obviously
not. In the Finance Committee | 0:31:39 | 0:31:44 | |
inquiry into Nama in November 2015
David Sterling was then telling | 0:31:44 | 0:31:49 | |
Daithi McKay was a problem and they
needed to stop doing that. I accept | 0:31:49 | 0:31:55 | |
that. It the doesn't seem to have
changed. The most extraordinary | 0:31:55 | 0:31:58 | |
thing about Sterling's comment was
that this seems to have been done to | 0:31:58 | 0:32:03 | |
spare the blushes of the Sinn Fein
and the DUP. That will they might be | 0:32:03 | 0:32:07 | |
doing or making unpopular decisions.
Thinking the unthinkable. Given the | 0:32:07 | 0:32:11 | |
timing of this, Mark, two weeks
after Sinn Fein and the DUP falling | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
about over pieces of paper which
ended up being leaked. This man now | 0:32:14 | 0:32:18 | |
saying - we are keeping touch away.
. The whole idea is consist sent i | 0:32:18 | 0:32:24 | |
and continuity. We record this, but
won't bother with this. Say a new | 0:32:24 | 0:32:31 | |
minister comes in or disagreements
with the parties you need records. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:34 | |
If it will embarst ration a minister
further down-the-line, tough, that | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
is what politics is. Let us tie it
into the other conversation about | 0:32:37 | 0:32:44 | |
whether or not transition/shadow
Assembly could be in the offing | 0:32:44 | 0:32:46 | |
sooner rather than later. If you
were a betting woman, would you take | 0:32:46 | 0:32:49 | |
a punt on that? Oh, not for a
minute. It ties together in an odd | 0:32:49 | 0:32:56 | |
way, when you think of it. The
suggestion is that they we have to | 0:32:56 | 0:32:59 | |
have the Assembly back because civil
servants should not be left to run | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
government because this isn't right.
This isn't democratic. Meanwhile we | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
get this intervention by a civil
servants which makes us think, are | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
we so sure about the civil service?
What I do think is absolutely | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
unlikely is that there would be any
nationalist buy into this at all. As | 0:33:15 | 0:33:21 | |
again Daithi McKay said. Who would
will go back to that? This is | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
pre-Good Friday Agreement
proposition. No Executive, an | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
Assembly that is a talking shop.
Final thought on that. Nationalists | 0:33:28 | 0:33:33 | |
won't wear it, Alex I don't think
anybody will wear it. The public | 0:33:33 | 0:33:36 | |
won't wear it. A real Assembly that
doesn't work. Even bring in a | 0:33:36 | 0:33:43 | |
pretend, that is crazy stuff. We
will leave it there. Thank you both | 0:33:43 | 0:33:46 | |
very much. | 0:33:46 | 0:33:50 | |
That's it from The View
for this week. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
Join me for Sunday Politics
at 11.35am, here on BBC One. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
But we leave you tonight
with the observations of one | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
of Britain's finest civil servants
on what should - and should not - | 0:33:57 | 0:34:00 | |
be a matter of public record. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:01 | |
Good night. | 0:34:01 | 0:34:02 | |
What is your problem? Well, the
minutes aren't written yet. I see. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:05 | |
So what should I do? Write them,
dear man. The problem is, the Prime | 0:34:05 | 0:34:12 | |
Minister did try to suppress the
chapter, didn't he? I don't know, | 0:34:12 | 0:34:15 | |
did he? Didn't he, don't you
remember? What I remember is | 0:34:15 | 0:34:20 | |
irrelevant Bernard. If the minutes
don't say he did, he didn't. You | 0:34:20 | 0:34:25 | |
want me to fallify the minutes. I
want nothing of the sort. It's up to | 0:34:25 | 0:34:29 | |
you Bernard, what do you want? I
want to have a clear conscience. A | 0:34:29 | 0:34:34 | |
clear conscience. Yes. When did you
acquire this taste for luxuries? The | 0:34:34 | 0:34:39 | |
purpose of minutes is not to record
events it's to protect people. You | 0:34:39 | 0:34:45 | |
do not take notes if the Prime
Minister says something he did not | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
mean to say, particularly if it
contradicts something he has said | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
pub iically. But how do I justify
that? You are his servant. Oh, yes. | 0:34:51 | 0:35:04 |
Join Mark Carruthers and guests on Thursdays for The View - the week's political news, comments and expert analysis. The View reports events at Stormont and Westminster and how they are affecting issues such as health and the economy. It follows the ups and downs of the political parties and debates the highs and lows of the political week. It also has an alternative view on the week's political headlines.