22/11/2012 The View


22/11/2012

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On The View tonight, 38 years since the Birmingham pub bombings, the

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families say they are all closer to finding out who was responsible. We

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hear from the sister of one of the victims who has called for a public

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inquiry. Closer to home, is this the best way to deal with the past?

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Also on the programme... I am on the north Antrim coast to

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look at the idea of this becoming a national park.

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We will have Environment Minister Alex Attwood in the studio. And

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with their views on those stories and headlines, our guests.

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The can also follow the programme 21 people died in the Birmingham

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pub bombings in 1974. Six men were jailed, but their convictions were

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quashed in 1981. Last week, a candle at the girl was held in the

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city. Julie Hamilton's sister, Maxine, was killed in the attacks.

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During has indeed studio is Ian Paisley Jnr and victims campaigner,

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John White. You had your candlelit vigil in

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Birmingham last night, part of your campaign to establish a public

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inquiry as -- into what happened. Was it a successful occasion?

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was a beautiful occasion. The Dean of Birmingham provided a service

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that was absolutely beautiful. We had a range of supporters who

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travelled from all over the UK to come and join us to remember a 21

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people who were taken away from one's fatigue eight years ago.

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What, precisely, are you campaigning for?

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We are campaigning for justice for 21 innocent people. It has been

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fatigued years, and the perpetrators are still at liberty.

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What sort of a society do we live and where we're supposed to be

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democratic but murderers who have killed 21 people are still free to

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walk the streets. -- it has been 38 years. It appears that the quality

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of the scales of justice is not balanced. You would like to see a

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public inquiry? Yes, we have written to a wide

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variety of MPs in the UK, and I must say, the Northern Ireland

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Assembly members have been absolutely superb, not wishing to

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sound sycophantic about this. But Mr Ian Paisley, who I believe is

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there, I would like to publicly thanked him and many of his members

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for their support. Only those who have suffered the loss of a loved

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one like we have can possibly understand. There are many in

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Northern Ireland, I can appreciate, who will know what I mean what I

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say you never get over that grief, you never get over that loss. We

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miss Maxene every single day. We love our lives, because that is

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what she would have wanted, but we cannot sit back now and not have

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the perpetrators brought to justice. Very briefly, the Prime Minister

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has said it there will be no more public inquiries on the scale of

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the Bloody Sunday inquiry, which cost �200 million. On the other

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hand, West Midlands police in July this year committed themselves to

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be examining the files to see if they can indeed identify the people

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responsible to -- for what happened 38 years ago. Isn't that

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significant progress? It is, but that only came about, in

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my personal opinion, from the power base of our supporters, who were

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writing to their MPs, who wear them writing to the Home Secretary,

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Theresa May, who then was writing back saying it was the place of the

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chief constable. He has yet to respond to any of the letters I

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have sent to him. Unfortunately, the last letter I sent to him, he

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forward and that to can he Bell, the head of the counter-terrorism

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unit. -- he said that on to can he Bell.

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A you have heard what Julie has to say, Ian Paisley, you are backing a

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campaign. Are you calling for a public inquiry?

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Julie has had almost 40 years of suffering, and her family, and the

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relatives of the 21, have had 40 years of terrible anguish, and they

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note -- now need support. We spent �37 million per year on policing

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the past through historical increase, through inquests, through

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the police money we put into all that. We have actually found a way

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of trying to address this without war public increase. The Troubles

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extended themselves to the best of the UK, and Julie and her family

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and those relatives have been left with nothing, so they need that

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mechanism. It means the Prime Minister has to revisit his

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decision and say a public inquiry is ahead or there is another

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mechanism. Let embrace our campaign and if the Historical Enquiries

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Team can do something to help, let them help. Is it possible the

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mechanism may be the extension of the remit of these historical

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enquiries Fiji as we know, they are limited -- the Historical Enquiries

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Team. As we know, they are limited to Northop -- to Northern Ireland.

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I don't care about the mechanics that are used and the niceties. The

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relatives want justice and truth, and as Julie said, the people who

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murdered in cold blood her sister and the other relatives, they are

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entitled to have justice. Therefore, let get on with it. But is that a

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mechanism due would encourage -- encourage the powers that be to

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examine? I think the Prime Minister should leave no stone unturned in

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this campaign. We have already put some pressure on Keir Starmer, the

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Director of Public Prosecutions. I intend to make a motion in front of

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the national Parliament, and I intend to push the Prime Minister

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and galvanise MPs to recognise they have a responsibility to get truth

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and justice for these families. Good white, you are victims

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campaigner and you lost your mother during the Troubles. -- Jude White.

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Do you have a lot of sympathy with what we have heard from Julie

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tonight? Absolutely, the troubled were not

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complain -- confined to this part of the UK. When I think of

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Birmingham, I think of two things. I think of one of the most

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appalling of indiscriminate attacks on civilians. It was a disgrace. I

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also think of the subsequent disgraceful treatment of six

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innocent men who spent years in prison, alone and isolated, after

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being brutalised. Once you think of an incident like Birmingham, it

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manifests the complex nature of what we're trying to do here,

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dealing with the past. I do not believe the Historical Enquiries

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Team will get to the bottom of this particular incident for a number of

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reasons. But least, resources. Not least. And the time gap. As a

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campaigner, I have every sympathy with Julie in her bereavement.

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Would it be worth trying to see if the Historical Enquiries Team could

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uncover information that may lead to the successful prosecution of

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individuals who were responsible? suspect not. Hardly a week goes by

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over here that one family will be going to the media complaining they

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are very unhappy with what the Historical Enquiries Team have done.

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The other side of the coin is, I know some people who will be very

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complimentary of what the Historical Enquiries Team have done,

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but it is a piecemeal approach. There needs to be an overarching

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process? Some kind of truth and reconciliation commission?

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Absolutely. The problem extends to Birmingham, the South of Ireland,

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also to Europe where there were many incidents, as well. We need a

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mechanism to deal with the past. In short, we need people to come and

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tell their story and tell the truth, and if appropriate apologise. If

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the victims feel it is appropriate, they can accept that apology.

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However, the Prix recruit -- prerequisite to all of us, nobody

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is going to do anything unless it is done for them.

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You have had people calling for this kind of umbrella Commission in

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the past. Isn't it the case that unless everybody says that together,

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the truth will only cover at best be partial.

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Nor Mac. Two issues arise here. Many people both on the mainland

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and here in Northern Ireland have pulled a brain -- blind over the

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Birmingham case because of the Birmingham Six case. People have

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said we do not want to visit that any more because of the

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implications that has. People are now lifting that curtain up and

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saying, we have to get justice for these 21, and if we do not get

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justice we're irresponsible in our approach. Secondly, if the 8GT, or

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:10:44.:10:45.

any other mechanism -- HET, if it uncovers any evidence at all it

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must be made available to the Birmingham authorities. That is why

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I have been speaking to the Director of Public Prosecutions and

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the Prime Minister as saying, it is up to you to find a way for these

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families. Do you think the day will ever come

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where we see a truth and reconciliation commission, the

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likes of which you would ideally As I get older, I become more

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pessimistic about it. I, like many people, who were not added extras

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in this conflict, will be dead. I see it as the only real way this

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conflict can never be bought -- brought to an end. People need to

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know what happened to their relatives will stop there are

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people out there who can tell them but they must be brought into this

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process, and there has to be consideration for a general amnesty.

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Still to come... All eyes are on Fermanagh as the

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GAA leaders head there, but will they bring more attention that we

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may have bargained for? -- the G 8 leaders.

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The Environment Minister has been asked to think again about his

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proposal for a national park here. Alex Attwood thinks the development

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would safeguard and market our natural beauty spots, but those

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opposed fear it would create an unnecessary and expensive public

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body. Our correspondent has been to What a view. The Environment

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Minister says this kind of area is ideal for a national park to

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bolster jobs and bring more tourists. But those who live and

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work on the land see it as a bad idea. The difficulty extends from

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this being privately owned land, not like the majority of places

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where national parks are publicly- owned land. It is a living

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community and a thriving farming area, and we don't think it is

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suitable. There are fears of more red tape and accidents on farms if

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ramblers are allowed to wander. There are no farmers here I know

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against tourism, we work closely with two is all the time and I

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don't see them as a problem. The Minister is saying there will be

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more tourism jobs. If the area was correctly marketed, we have no need

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of this national park label. It is a view echoed by another

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All the businesses we have lobbied are in opposition.

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Farmers are not the only ones concerned. The owners of this

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caravan park are eager to promote tourism but say and national park

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is not the answer. We do not need more regulation. And we need better

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regulation and less red tape. We are all ready custodians of this

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land. We are the best ones who know how to manage it. The ministry here

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is a conservation area -- the mean at St -- the main street. They say

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the best thing about what help is to untangle bureaucracy around

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planning. And reduce VAT. But what about the minister such argument

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that Northern Ireland is the only region of the UK that does not have

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a national park? It is the only part of the UK that does not have a

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nuclear power station and we do not one of want one of those either.

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The Fermanagh Lakelands are also a potential area for a national park,

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but it seems there is a preference it to build on the current scheme.

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Most people are totally opposed to a national park in Fermanagh. We

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have a geo-park which works extremely well. It does not have

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the complications of a national park and the additional bureaucracy.

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The view is that we will see investment in the communities. It

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is not just about sustaining the environment, but sustaining their

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community and the local economy. In Wales, there are three national

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parks and there has been a big investment through GDP and over

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1000 jobs because of it. There has been other advice as well. We were

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told by colleagues in the Brecon Beacons to bolster or are

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opposition and stop it before it happens. There is a warning that

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house prices will rise out of reach of locals. Where does that leave

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the minister's plan? He says he is taking stock.

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Martina Purdy reporting. And the Environment Minister, Alex Attwood,

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is with me now. So where are we now? We have 64,000 people out of

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to work, we will have 84,000 people out of work soon, we have the next

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of cuts at the European budget, what I have to do it as a Mr Izmit

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turnover every stone to see if I can create jobs. -- what I have to

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do as a minister. How are we going to find opportunities to grow work,

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especially tourism, given that our natural heritage is or single

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biggest asset? How does a national park create jobs? People still come

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to the Fermanagh Lakelands, to the causeway. If you look at the

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figures in the north of Ireland, we hope to grow to ism to make it a

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would build empower under your industry. -- to make it a billion

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:17:49.:17:51.

pound a year industry. Evidence suggests that if you have big

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culture events, that brings people him. And at the label National

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Park's... It is already bringing people them. People are going to

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come for the UK Capital of Culture anyway. It is irrelevant. It is not

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relevant. The evidence suggests that if you have a national park,

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it defines it that area at him at special terms and people come and

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bigger numbers, spend more and stay longer. 700 people at a public

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meeting last night in Bala Castle are not at all happy about the idea

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of a national park being imposed I accept that there is a lot of

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opposition, but I also think there is a lot of quiet support. I could

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give you many examples of letters from South Down supporting it.

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we have heard that all the businesses in the north coast

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against it. And others are in favour of it. There is a lot of

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opposition, that is why I will have to look again, to see how I can

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build support for the strategy that I want to develop that sees the

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growth of tourism and other jobs opportunities. What does look again

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actually mean your going to do? I can persuade people that we need

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to have bigger and bolder strategy is to protect our heritage and good

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jobs -- and go jobs... Farmers say very clearly, if you create a

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national park, they experience across the water is that house

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prices go up, land prices go down and older, retired people move into

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the area and jobs are not created. That is not the experience of

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National parks in Britain. The experience in Britain is that it

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does grow jobs. We heard of a farmer in the Brecon Beacons to

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said they do not touch it with a bargepole. And there were many

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farmers from other national parks areas in Britain who would give you

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a different story. Are you going to go to public meetings and try to

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persuade people? I would try to persuade people that in a situation

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where we are facing 85,000 people out of work, the potential of cuts

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in cap money so, the difficulties around recession, we must turn over

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every stone to create jobs. It is quite clear that the opposition to

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the concept of national parks is quite significant. But there is not

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opposition to the concept of trying to grow rural jobs. That is my job,

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to create the rural opportunities. When will you make the decision?

:21:30.:21:40.
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have met people private -- private and I will not give up my argument

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of tried to create more jobs in the rural committees. Just give us some

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idea of a date, or will it be before Christmas? No, it will lobby

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before Christmas. It will be my obligation to try to persuade

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people off where we need to go in terms of growing our rural economy.

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I will not be able to convince rural communities of the National

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parks, but I will not give up on their attempt to grow jobs. Thank

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:22:33.:22:35.

you. So Fermanagh is to host a gathering

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of world leaders. Who would seriously have imagined that? But

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next June, Obama, Merkel, Hollande, Cameron and other members of the G8

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group will be enjoying the pleasures of the Lakeland county.

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Of course the annual G8 summit doesn't just attract the attention

:22:46.:22:56.
:22:56.:23:03.

Canada, France, Germany, the USA, Italy, the G8 summit brings

:23:03.:23:08.

together the leaders of some of the world's largest economies to

:23:08.:23:15.

discuss global issues. It is an informal policy former added

:23:15.:23:20.

nothing is binding on the membership. With the world's

:23:20.:23:24.

leadership in one place, the world's media is also gathered.

:23:24.:23:31.

Come June, of Fermanagh will be the focus of attention. Focus groups

:23:31.:23:39.

will also be there. There have been serious clashes with police over

:23:39.:23:49.
:23:49.:23:50.

the years. With the security is so tight, how much the world's

:23:50.:23:54.

opinion-formers will see offer man at remains open to question.

:23:54.:23:57.

Joining me now to discuss that and the rest of the week's political

:23:57.:23:59.

news are commentators Fionnuala O Connor and Pete Shirlow.

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Is it a good decision to have it in Fermanagh? Probably, but it will

:24:05.:24:15.
:24:15.:24:17.

not have such a big impact. Do you think that this figure of �100

:24:17.:24:23.

million are generated for the local economy make sense? There will be

:24:23.:24:32.

an upsurge of hotels and restaurants filled. Quite a lot of

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people outside if you do not know that there is a place cold Northern

:24:41.:24:48.

Ireland. -- called Northern Ireland. A vet bills a large could tell that

:24:48.:24:56.

is in administration, that might be something.

:24:56.:24:59.

Do think they Historical Enquiries Team it should extend its remit to

:24:59.:25:07.

investigate some of these issues? To someone like Julie Hambleton, it

:25:07.:25:13.

must be unfair and illogical that the acronym's the met are just

:25:13.:25:23.
:25:23.:25:25.

extends to Northern Ireland. -- the HET's be met. But the historical

:25:25.:25:31.

inquiries team is strapped for cash, so it is hard to see how we can

:25:31.:25:36.

take on any more. Historical Enquiries Team, cold

:25:36.:25:42.

case reviews, there are all kinds of options there. There are options,

:25:42.:25:52.
:25:52.:25:55.

but no process. One of the things or the idea was that a lot of

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people make is that courts is not a place to understand the context of

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a conflict. Very much, you are a narrowing of the reason for a

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conflict. Reconciliation is important and is probably a better

:26:13.:26:23.
:26:23.:26:26.

way to go. What caught your eye this week?

:26:26.:26:36.
:26:36.:26:38.

John McAllister calling for opposition at Stormont. A lot of

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people asking questions. If we had more bite in the Assembly, it would

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create a more and stronger sense that we have moved on from where we

:26:51.:27:01.
:27:01.:27:06.

wear. John McAllister mention that. You moment of the week? Another sad

:27:06.:27:15.

moment for Women. It was a Church of England's decision not to go

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ahead with the women bishops. It looks as though it may well

:27:21.:27:28.

splinter. A Guardian reporter who has followed it for a long time he

:27:28.:27:35.

said he thought that the Church of England had committed suicide. One

:27:35.:27:41.

woman priest said, having listened to the arguments, said it would be

:27:41.:27:51.
:27:51.:27:58.

great if from the beginning men and women had shared authority roles.

:27:58.:28:03.

Those who oppose women bishops have used the argument that Jesus did

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not choose women disciples. What do you anticipate to be that

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highlight of the coming week? as an enquiry. It has been looking

:28:18.:28:24.

into the haul ethics of the media. It will bring up some interesting

:28:24.:28:27.

questions about the freedom of the press.

:28:28.:28:33.

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