13/01/2013 The Wales Report

Tonight on The Wales Report: So the Welsh Government wants to buy an

airport. But is the Carwyn Jones plan really a good use of public

money? What's in a flag? A Welsh

perspective on the Union flag row that's caused so much tension in

Belfast. And in the ever-changing character

of today's Wales we visit one village where the fight for

identity is at a critical stage. Welcome to the first Wales Report

of 2013. Blwyddyn newydd dda. A happy new year to everyone. It's

good to be back. And there's plenty for us to talk about as we consider

the big issues affecting the people of Wales in this new year. Any

meaningful discussion about the state of the Welsh economy must

involve transport infrastructure and let's face it Wales is hardly a

world leader in this regard. Airport capacity notably in the

south-east region around Cardiff is a crucial element. So why is Wales

not served by a successful international airport, a gateway

for business and investment and leisure which delivers its own

burst of economic growth? After a turbulent patch and a dramatic fall

in passenger numbers, the Welsh Government has stepped in with

plans to buy the airport. Or to renationalise it, depending on your

perspective. The First Minister says he has the people's support.

His critics say it's quite simply a waste of tax-payers' money. As

Helen Callaghan reports, Carwyn Jones has a fight on his hands not

least from the people running Bristol Airport with its annual

Airports, places of dreams, filled with the excitement and has signed

bustle of travel. Arrival and departure lounges, packed with

passengers to-ing and fro-ing for business and leisure. The crowning

glory of any capital city. But that is not the picture in Wales.

Cardiff Airport has been navigating its way through some pretty badge

commercial turbulence lately. In 2012, passenger numbers hit an all-

time low. Industry experts have told us that closure is the very

real possibility. With that prospect in mind, the First

Minister has been reaching for the Welsh Government chequebook. If

that plan goes ahead, you, the taxpayer, could soon be the proud

owner of Wales's only international airport. The present crisis is a

far cry from the 70s and 80s, with the growth of package holidays and

the expansion of the airport. Times were good. When ownership passed to

a Spanish company, at the airport continued to do well. But over the

last five years, there has been a dramatic decline in its fortunes.

Cardiff's passenger numbers have halved from 2 million to 1.2

million in 2011, with a seemingly similar decline in investment.

Cardiff has not come off too well out of this low-cost revolution.

The two biggest low-cost airlines in the UK are in Bristol, and

Cardiff was left with another airline, BMI Baby, which never

really succeeded. It is the problem with that one particular airline

that led to the decline in passenger numbers at Cardiff

Airport. Just across the bridge in England, there is a very different

story. Many Welsh people now fly from Bristol, helping the airport

see a 1% rise in passenger numbers over the past year. More than 5.7

million people pass through the checking gates. Their success has

not come easily. We have been working for a long period of time

in attracting the leading airlines to Bristol. We have also invested

about �100 million in the airport over the last decade, and that is

expanding the infrastructure, improving the facilities and making

it easier for people to get to Bristol Airport, which is

incredibly important to us. This is a cut-throat business. Airport

against airport. Bristol Airport remains determined to attract Welsh

customers to its check-in desks. In a further blow to Cardiff Airport,

the Wales Report can reveal that from March Bristol Airport will be

operating a direct Greyhound bus link from Swansea, Cardiff, Newport

and the airport. The Welsh Government has well and truly

arrived in a commercial jungle. In 2012, Carwyn Jones told the company

to invest in the airport or sell it. Now that is your money that is

going to be invested, how much do you want to they? As the price

varies from �50 million up to �150 million and in truth nobody knows.

We do not know two things, the purchase price and what the

Government intends to do with the airport if it goes ahead with the

purchase. Having bought it, they will have to find someone to run it

and hopefully at a profit. It is thought they will appoint a new

management team but that team will be facing a massive challenge. To

make the airport busy and profitable you have got to attract

new airlines and they have to see it as a money-maker. You can spend

as much money on it as you like. The Welsh Government can put

window-boxes full of daffodils everywhere in there. It is not

going to make a difference to the airlines. Yes, they would like to

obviously bring these routes in and yes, the public would love it as

well. But at the end of the day it is the airline that has to take the

risk. At the moment, they don't think that there are enough people

here in South Wales with enough disposable income to support the

services. I just can't see it happening. And an airport in public

ownership will have many people keeping a very close eye on the

books. This is a commercially sensitive market. We would be

concerned if state subsidies were provided to Cardiff Airport and of

course this date Minister -- First Minister is calling for the

devolution of aviation tax and the scrapping of aviation tax. But if

that was to restore an efficient and open and competitive market for

air travel across the UK, we would have a problem. With respect to the

possible nationalisation of Cardiff Airport, we certainly do not have

any issues. Of course provided that process and competition is on a

very level playing field. Our concern would be if there were any

state subsidies provided as part of the process. We welcome the

assurances from the First Minister that Cardiff Airport will be

operated on a commercial basis and there will not be state subsidies.

Provided that is the case, we will be very happy. Many believe that

this plan has not been fully thought through and it could cost

us dear. We do not know how much they will pay for the airport. They

have given us no idea what their objectives are and they have given

us no idea what kind of action plan they will put in place. And now the

owners of the airport have got the First Minister over a barrel. They

can name their price, otherwise the First Minister is forced into a

humiliating U-turn. The problem is it is not his money. It is our

money as taxpayers and we have a duty to scrutinise this very

carefully if and make sure that money is effectively spent to

deliver something that is a benefit rather than just a black hole

sucking public money down the drain. The Welsh Government believes that

Wales needs a major airport close to the capital city. But are we

travelling to destination unknown? And crucially how much will the

ticket cost? So joining me in the studio is the

Labour Assembly minister Mick Antoniw, who was on the airports

committee before it was privatised. And the Conservative MP for their

of Glamorgan, Alun Cairns. Let's be direct. Is there a commercial case

for having this airport in the first place? Any interest and

investment in the airport is welcome and it is important to the

economy and the jobs at the maintenance centre next door as

well. The point I want to make is that you do not have to own an

airport to support an airport. It has been run down over recent years.

The Welsh Assembly Government has not really supported it at all.

Only last year we have public fights between the airport owners

and the First Minister and just two-and-a-half years ago the

National Transport plan did not have any mention other than two

lines of Cardiff Airport. That is the priority of support that there

was Government has given the airport over the last five years or

so. We will come back to the commercial viability, a crucial

question. From your point of view, is this strategy the right one

given the fact that this airport has been doing quite poorly? If we

think an airport is important to the future of the Welsh economy,

then it is the only strategy available because no one else at

the moment is going to step in. We either let it deteriorate, or we

say there is an important role for the airport and we are going to

build that role and make it part of the hub of the economy.

viability of this airport as a unit, pie in the sky or not? Well, I

think the Welsh Government is looking at it the wrong way. They

think having an airport is imported to the economy, and it is. But you

need to have a vibrant economy that will support an international

airport and they are looking at the telescope the wrong way round, if

you like. The important thing is to have a strong economy. I have

spoken to a number of airlines who have said that they do not see this

disposable income and the business demand locally to be strong enough

to support them. But if you look up the North East, Newcastle airport,

and some of the airports in Scotland, Emirates were looking at

the North East and some of the airport in Glasgow and Edinburgh

and they were also looking at Cardiff. You cannot subsidise an

airline because that is against European rules, but you can support

the marketing of the roots, both in the overseas destination and in the

UK. You can make that flight more viable much more quickly. There was

Government refused to do that over recent years, but the regional

development agency in the North of England was happy to do that and

the Scottish Government was happy to do that for Glasgow and for

Edinburgh. But the Welsh Government did not do that and that is the

sort of support that we need, but we can do it without owning the

airport. How much do you think the airport is what? The answer is that

I do not know. I have seen figures from �35 million up to �150 million.

You have to look at the books and the debts and the potential

partners. Bristol were talking about them investing �100 million

of their own money. You have got the same in Newcastle and

Manchester, where they are investing enormous amount of money

in infrastructure, but they are again effectively publicly owned.

On the political risk, do you think it will be impossible for Carwyn

Jones to withdraw now that he has committed to buying it, no matter

what the prices? I don't. If it turned round the whole situation,

and the situation changed in terms of the due diligence work, I think

they would have to pull up. The Assembly is only going to support

the business plan that is viable. None of us are going to sit there

and support something that cannot be sustained. Two issues come out

of that. One, at the company that owns the airport has the First

Minister over a barrel. That is because of the political priority

but the First Minister has made of it. But he could turn round and say

he is not prepared to pay that price, there was taxpayer will not.

He has made such a political and this on this before Christmas that

I think it would be impossible for him to walk away and that is a

worrying factor because we will pay more money than it is worth. If it

was such a good deal, there would be a host of private sector

companies queuing up ready to take over the ownership. Or ready to

take over the running of Cardiff Airport. And even with the massive

numbers of passengers going through Bristol Airport, Bristol Airport

lost money last year and that is the risk to the taxpayer. And

finally, at a time when there is a desperate need for capital spent in

the economy, on roads, infrastructure, on a whole range of

projects, tier cannot believe the First Minister is talking about

tying up tens of millions of pounds. -- I cannot believe. And he is also

taking on the debt of the airport itself. Is it not important for

Wales to have its own proper international airport? Well, it is,

but you do not have to own an airport to support it. That is the

fundamental issue. Scotland and the Regional Development Agency in

Newcastle both supported their airports and do not own them.

is a status purchase and not something that makes commercial

sense? It is not. Ownership is not the key issue alone, the key issue

is who will step in and rescue the airport. That tells you that it is

a bad deal, doesn't it? It does not. There is nobody else around. If you

think the airport is important, who will step in and actually do that?

In exactly the same way as the local authority stepped in with

Manchester and with Newcastle, and in fact the Scottish Government

with the Highlands and Islands, we now think that an airport is

important that we want it or we walk away. Adding the Welsh

Government has taken a brave and correct decision. -- I think.

doing it because no one else will do the job. That is because they

have not shown to bought over the last five years or more and I have

given examples in relation to that. -- not shown support. There is

interest and I think people will be surprised when the announcements

are made with regard to this plan. We will have you back to talk about

What's in a flag? In this case, the Union flag - or Union Jack, take

your pick. It's a question that's featured prominently in news

headlines in recent weeks given the violence on the streets of Belfast.

The City Council voted not to fly the flag every day, and the

decision led to some of the worst violence since the Good Friday

Agreement was signed nearly 15 years ago. And plenty of questions

have been asked about the way the decision was handled. My next guest

knows more than most about the situation in today's Northern

Ireland, having served as Secretary of State. He's Labour's Peter Hain,

the MP for Neath. What has gone wrong? A number of things. I

believe the main one is that working-class loyalists feel they

have not been stakeholders for changed since we negotiated the

historic solution in 2007. Young people but at the forefront of

these problems are without jobs, youth unemployment is horrific in

Northern Ireland. Particularly loyalist youngsters feel they don't

have a real future. They think that republicans are getting everything.

That is a misnomer. Some of the recent trouble around the parading

season was young Republicans. You have youngsters without jobs and

trading, in the NEETs category, on both sides of the divide, feeling

this is not best seen any more. They can't get jobs, they don't

have a stake so they are causing trouble. I think there is an

identity she was well. Was it right to make the decision in the first

place? It was made because a compromise was being sought, but

with hindsight, were they right? is very difficult for me as a

former Secretary of State to say what was right or wrong. This is a

devolved legislature, it is a devolved Northern Ireland. What

would you have done if you were in office? This is a divided city

between Protestants and Catholics still, between Unionists and

nationalists, Republicans. The decision they took was hard argued.

The Alliance Party, which has traditionally opted a middle way,

was the one which came up with only flying the flag on certain

designated days. It seemed a reasonable compromise. In fact, it

has inflamed the situation, but for reasons which are not only, in my

view, to do with the Union Jack, the British flag, above Belfast

City Hall, but with the wider alienation, especially of your

loyalists, from what they see as a developing society around them.

Billions of pounds of public money has been invested in industry in

the province, partly to create jobs, despite the fact that youth

unemployment is very high. People in other parts of the UK have

little patience with what they see happening in Belfast, they think

people are not responding to the kind of support they have had. Do

you lack sympathy? It is true that Northern Ireland has had more

subsidy if in its public services, its state and the public sector

generally than any other part of the UK, Wales included. In other

respects they are privileged, they still don't pay water charges. I

tried to introduce the last Secretary of State, which caused a

terrific rumpus. -- I tried to introduce them as Secretary of

State. But the society is in transition from centuries of

conflict. And a bitter, violent and terrorist conflict which needs

support to get it to a place where it needs to be. Do you see any

parallels at all, not the violence, thankfully, but any other parallels

throughout the rest of the devolved UK, people taking more

responsibility for their own affairs? You were a very big,

strong element in the campaign to get devolution to Wales. That

identity struggle, do you see it playing out elsewhere? I think

there is an issue with English identity. I have always thought the

asymmetric devolution settlement was not sustainable, power needed

to be divorced in England and not just London, to the rest of the

English regions, cities and so on. In Northern Ireland, I think there

is a different issue which could be in play under this austerity, if in

a wider sense, across Britain. When people don't feel they have a stake

in society, identity becomes even more important. For example, you

saw the rise of the BNP, when people did not feel like they were

getting housing opportunities, they worried about immigration and job

security, including under the Labour government. The BNP came to

the fore. UKIP is coming to the fore with the European question and

a lot of other associated issues, it is not just a one-issue party.

Identity becomes more important in a situation where people feel

insecure and under siege. In Northern Ireland there is a

particular issue with the loyalist community, I don't think the

Government is doing enough to engage with them. I took risky

decisions to engage with people on the fringes, and some almost in

uniform, as it were, in paramilitary activity, to engage

with them. And it paid off. The wider question of identity comes to

the fore when people don't have a wider stake in the normal bread-

and-butter jobs, housing, education, opportunities that are the stuff of

daily life. Peter, thank you very much. Peter Hain.

That notion of identity, especially cultural identity, has been

examined in detail since the latest census figures for Wales were

published. They are a gold mine of information, telling us how Wales

has changed over the past decade - with religion, language and

nationality featuring very prominently. The number of people

able to speak Welsh has fallen from 20.5% to 19%, with the sharpest

decline recorded in the heartlands of Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion.

David Williams has been to one of the oldest villages in Wales,

Brechfa - deep in the countryside some 12 miles from Carmarthen -

where he came face to face with the reality of what's happening. And he

discovered that the future of the language might well depend on some

of the incomers, and those who The reality of living in today's

Wales is to be found in places like this. This is Brechfa. Population,

300. And something of a microcosm of what it is to try and preserve

the essence of a community at a time of great change. You don't

just arrive in Brechfa, you have to make an effort to get here. The

villagers said to be a settlement dating back in the coffee barbie to

the 6th century. One steeped in the Welsh language, it is now

linguistically finely balanced - half Welsh, half-English. But

united in a common aim - preserving the community. Invariably,

something gets lost in translation when the English and Welsh

languages are interpreted or misinterpreted. It can lead to

confusion and misunderstanding. Take the notice on this date. In

Wells, it suggests quite correctly that this school is no longer

operational. In English, the suggestion is that the village of

Brechfa itself is no longer operational, which is simply not

true. And they hope is that this little school will soon have a new

role and will help to reinvigorate I was brought up in a village much

like this, a Welsh speaker in a community where there were only two

pupils from an English background at the school at which my father

was the headmaster. How things have changed. In Brechfa, the linguistic

population shift in the last 50 years has been, as it has in the

village of my childhood, dramatic. Not only has Welsh as the first

language taken a huge hit in this village, falling pupil numbers has

forced the authority to move the children of Brechfa six miles down

the roads are to another school. But the campaign to keep the

building open and preserve it as both an educational and business

centre of village life has only just begun.

This man, and in, from Hertfordshire, walked around the

school all day in his wellingtons to raise money for a project aimed

at saving the building. Now considered a vital part of his

local community. We were very excited about helping the school.

The whole idea of a little girl living in a village and going to

the village school and having friends in the village was very

meaningful, so it was a great blow to our son lots of other families.

-- great blow to us and lots of These young women may hold the key

to the success of the project. just remember my childhood, and it

was great growing up in Brechfa, around the forest, mountain biking

in the river. I just think it would be nice to promote this area and

make people realise how great it is and how good it can be. Both Welsh-

speaking, both brought up in Brechfa, they went to this school.

Both went off to university and travelled the world but, unusually,

both have returned home. And both are determined to play their part

and re-energised their community. We just think it is really

important to keep the Welsh language alive. It is part of our

heritage and culture, and to see it disappear would be a shame. They

want to set up a food store for a yet to be established mountain-

And this is the woman who was the driving force behind the Brechfa

project. Mary Mitchell, a retired schoolteacher, is a self-employed

milk recorder, collecting samples from local farms for analysis in

England. She was brought up in Carmarthenshire, moved away but

returned with her family to live in Brechfa. It is not just about the

Welsh language, it is about the age of the people, because the

demographic has changed here and what we are getting is a lot more

retired people moving in here. Because the housing is not

affordable for younger families. What some people here will tell you

privately, though not publicly, is that a great deal of the drive

which it has sustained this village comes from people who have either

moved away and come back off from people who have simply moved into

the area. The incomers and those returning are powerful force for

the rejuvenation of places like Brechfa. It may be that for some

this is an uncomfortable truth, but one that needs to be faced not only

in Brechfa but in Wales as a hole in what is a critical time for both

the Welsh language and the survival of the communities which help to

sustain the language. But does it really matter that we

all speak the language of heaven? Is it really important to our

collective well-being that we all speak Welsh? Or is it more

important in a place like this to ensure a vibrant community which

embraces both languages? The inevitable question that divides us

as a nation and causes individuals like me continual angst and

consternation has risen its head again. There was never an easy or

satisfactory answer to that conundrum, and the complexities

attached to the issue of the language seemed magnified in places

like this. Bit by bit, the villagers of Brechfa have seen not

only the Welsh language disappear, but also those elements which go to

the core of community life here. The chapel, the Pope and, most

recently, the calf -- the chapel, the Pope, and, most recently, the

school have all gone. Only the local shop has been saved as a

community run venture. Good morning, how are you? Have you

any sandwiches? Yes, we do, in the chiller cabinet. The little shop is

at the heart of this community, a place enjoyed by everyone, natives

and incomers alike. Bill Bradley, one of the volunteer directors,

retired here from Middlesex. Well, I love it here. A lot of people

said to me, oh, don't live in Wales, but I must say I really love living

here. What do they mean, don't live in Wales? They said we wouldn't be

welcome and they all speak Welsh and we wouldn't fit in, but we have

fitted in very well. We have been welcomed by everybody. And they do

speak Welsh? They do. Sometimes I stand here in the shop and I don't

understand a word they are saying. Coup attempts at a community buy-

out of the local pub failed, so now the focus of potential is on the

local school's the focus of attention is on the local school,

close last year but still seen as the potential new sense of

community life. The local authority is keeping the door open - for the

time being, at least. We have to produce an outline proposal and a

five-year business plan with five- year cash forecasts by March.

Hopefully from September if it is accepted, we can have it to rent

for 12 to 18 months, and then the option to buy. It is absolutely

doable. The very future of the Welsh language, not to say the

future of communities like this which helped to foster it, depend

on the goodwill of all people in places like this. If there are no

communities, then there is nothing left to debate. And that would be a

David Williams reporting. That's it for tonight's programme. Next week

Tim Rogers will be assessing a big week for the NHS in Wales - and

that's always a big talking point. So get in touch and send us your