26/03/2014 The Wales Report

Tonight on the Wales Report. Are the natural resources of Wales being

properly protected? There are new concerns about the independence of

the body responsible. The latest twist in the debate about more

powers for the Welsh Government. We'll be talking to the Secretary of

State, David Jones. And why is Wales so slow to promote the interests of

women in public life? Stay with us for the Wales Report.

Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report. Tonight: A special

investigation into the work of Natural Resources Wales. It is a

major new body set up last year with a budget of ?180 million, looking

after some of the most valuable assets of the Welsh economy. Those

resources are worth around ?8 billion. It's meant to be an

independent body making crucial decision about the landscape,

environment and wildlife of Wales. But how independent is it? And is

the Welsh Government exerting an unhealthy influence on the work of

the NRW? The Wales Report has seen evidence which raises questions

about the relationship, reflecting the concerns of some of those who

work inside NRW. Helen Callaghan reports.

In Wales, our natural environment is perhaps our greatest asset. Our

mountains, rivers and wildlife, the business they attract are worth more

than ?8 billion to the Welsh economy each year. The natural environment

is crucial to Wales. It is one of our few US peas, unique selling

points. For the last 12 months the important task of looking after our

environment has been the job of one body, Natural Resources Wales, which

is funded by the Welsh Government to operate independently. It has a wide

remit with responsibilities for planning, forestry and flood

defences to name just a few. With a budget of 177 million and more than

2000 staff it is our large -- largest Welsh government-sponsored

body. But now, there are serious concerns that the Welsh Government

wields too much influence over the bodies decisions. They are meant to

be made independently. One of the first big test for Natural Resources

Wales was how it dealt with proposals to develop this site into

the circuit of Wales racetrack. There are claims it ended up

backtracking on decisions already made by his predecessor, the

countryside Council for Wales. It objected to the plan in March last

year and recommended it be refused as Israelis significant

environmental concerns. It would have an adverse effect. -- it would

raise significant environmental concerns. It listed everything from

noise and light pollution to the impact on biodiversity. Just months

later, it actually alter its recommendation that the application

be refused saying all the concerns could be dealt with and the plan

could now go ahead. The Wales report has been shown e-mails written by

the late Morgan Parry, a former NRW board member. The e-mails show

frustration that staff are being asked to change the recommendations

despite no new evidence coming to light. I don't know who wrote our

submission. It painted a picture of an

organisation where environmental governance seem to have been totally

bypassed. When decisions were made by an individual of a small number

of individuals, ignoring scientific evidence, ignoring advice from its

own officials. It argued the case of circuit of Wales may not be an

isolated example. The Wales reporter spoken to a senior staff member who

claims that advice and decisions have been changed as a result of

pressure from the Welsh Government. The staff member wants to remain

anonymous but believes the organisation is failing to provide

the independent expertise needed to protect the environment. From day

one of the new organisation it is Cleo the Welsh Government ministers

and officials expected to have a strong day-to-day influence on the

decisions and advice of Natural Resources Wales.

Helen Callaghan reporting their statement goes on to say that

NRW's executive team haven't challenged the pressure being

applied by the Welsh Government, they themselves have put substantial

pressure on staff to come with the right answer for Welsh Government

even when that is though evidence to support it. I does recognise that at

all. We much depend on the advice coming forward from our staff and we

support that advice. They are not given a steel on any kind of answer

we expect all we want. We look at the evidence in front of us, we hear

the advice of the staff and we implement on that. Does it surprise

you that there are certain people who feel that way? Any organisation

which is new, which is undergoing a period of change, yes, there will be

people who are uncertain about their position. We are trying to take an

overall holistic approach. Ringing together the various disciplines

from the predecessor bodies to arrive at a similar conclusion.

Criticisms of NRW don't centre on its independence from Welsh

Government influence. The concern is the body's focus is spread too

thinly over too wide a remote which includes the 280,000 hectares of

woodland. When it was first put forward, we were quite concerned

that we were losing an organisation which had a forestry focus. What we

are seeing at the moment is a certain amount of disorganisation.

Do you feel you are managing to fulfil that wide remit? We are

unique organisation but we are managing all that work very well in

my opinion. I am pleased with things. We're looking at things from

an overall perspective which did not exist before. They have had nearly

12 months. They have got the next year to sort themselves out. We have

to see results. Joining me now is the Minister for Natural Resources,

Alun Davies. Is this an independent body or not?

It certainly is. The big story is there is no story at all. When I

wrote the order, when I sighed the order bringing Natural Resources

Wales into existence a year ago, I remember this duty was full of these

Jeremiahs wringing hands and telling is nothing was going to work. The

whole place would collapse. Since then, the BBC has not run a

single-storey in the last year on all of those scare stories and all

of those scare tactics we had a year ago. NRW is in a smooth and

controlled fashion. They have had to deal with the biggest challenge.

That was from floods, to storms, to forestry and three disease. It is

succeeding in your view because it is carrying out its work

independently or because you are telling it what to do? It is

listening to advice from its own specialists and giving us advice.

For example, you have spent the last two or three months reporting on the

chaos in England about the floods. You haven't been reporting about

that in Wales. We haven't seen the same chaos in Wales. You have got

somebody like NRW investing in flood defences and the management of them.

We have already ensured that all the funding required to rebuild the

flood defences in places like Aberystwyth has been delivered. That

is done as a consequence of the work of NRW, both managing and leading

the response to the storms. But also understanding the impact on that.

NRW didn't just respond to what happened in those storms are both

planned how we should respond in future. I have listened to them.

What is your relationship with them? Do you intervene and meddle in

what they do? I have just provided a remote letter for the next year.

That'll outlined the main areas and want them to focus on and the areas

I want them to lead on in the next 12 months. That is about dealing

with green growth, investing in sustainable management of our

natural resources and to ensure largely unable to provide the advice

we need in government. I understand the sensitivity around the circuit

of Wales but that is the kind of case people have brought up. They

have said that is why the are concerned about the independence of

this new body. What can you say to reassure them? A single anonymous

source, that is a generalised... What about Morgan Parry? The person

you quoted was anonymous. Look at the practice of the work that NRW is

doing daily in, day out, throughout its first year. It has delivered on

its expectations and I expectations. We are building on a firm

foundation. When you look at the organisation, the number of staff,

the focus will be slightly changed from where it was before. You

mentioned forestry and timber work, concerned about how efficiently that

is being run. You happy with that? Certainly. Does criticisms I have

heard in the last 365 days. The real challenge facing NRW in the next

year isn't what was in the film but is in working as a part of the

country of Wales in protecting and managing our naturally is. And doing

that independently? Yes, but also changing how we do governance in

Wales. We want to say this is how we can manage developments. This is how

we can manage sustainability. This is how we can deliver. We want to

see economic growth. We want our natural resources contributed to it.

That is a fantastic challenge for NRW, it is a fantastic opportunity

for Wales. I want to work with NRW to see that vision. You dismiss most

of the film but it is to do with the culture of this new body. Whether

you as a minister are ready to give it a bit of space to make its

decision without looking over his shoulder all the time, worrying

about what you might be thinking. It is hard the space to take those

decisions. That it has had. The point that you are making are

correct. It -- that there is need to be a culture change. It can't be a

body that says no to everybody. That must not be how NRW operates. It

must recognise its role is to manage the natural resources of Wales in a

sustainable way. It is not for me to say how that is achieved. That is up

for the senior management team and all the staff of NRW to deliver on

the ambitions that all of us shared across Wales. Minister, thank you

very much. It was pensions and bingo that

dominated the headlines following last week's Budget so maybe only the

very observant would have noticed the Chancellor's reference to The

Wales Bill which sets out plans for the further devolution of tax and

borrowing powers. The bill was published the day after the Budget.

If it becomes law, it would give the Welsh Government the power to borrow

more money to fund major projects, and subject to a Yes vote in a

referendum there would be scope to adjust income tax. There are some

who see this as a positive development, others accuse the

coalition government of having less than honourable intentions. We will

not be seeking income tax varying powers in future. We fear there is a

trap being laid for the Welsh people by the Conservative party. Labour is

used to the regular attacks by David Cameron, who accuses the Labour

government in Wales of a disastrous record, especially on education and

health. There are people on NHS waiting lists dying in Wales because

the waiting lists are too long because the NHS is not being

properly managed and Wales. They need to get their act together. In

just 14 months, people will vote in the General Election. To what extent

will Mr Cameron's campaign feature Wales as a weapon to attack Labour?

Joining me now from our Westminster studio is the Secretary of State for

Wales, David Jones. Is that a concern? I think people will have to

examine what Labour do in power than the closest example that we have at

the moment is Wales. The only part of the country in which they are

actually in power, and it is right people should examine it very

closely. If people get the impression that David Cameron is

brandishing Wales as a basket case, how does that leave us? I do not

think that is the case but it cannot be ignored that Wales has the worst

health outcomes and education is on the decline and economic development

has not doing too well. I think it is an parallel right to examine what

has happened in Wales and compare it with the UK. When you look at

coverage in our newspapers, should Wales be getting this coverage and

what does that say to investors? I would say it is a challenge to the

Welsh government to get the house in order and stuff like the remarks by

Mark Draper about bagging Wales from the mud is not the right answer.

They should be ensuring Wales gets the same standard of care as the

rest of Britain and they are entitled to it. To pretend there is

no problem is not really good enough. How will the Wales Bill will

change things? What it will do in terms of fiscal accountability is

the Volvo two small taxes, but what it'll do addition is the Volvo to

the assembly the power to hold a referendum. -- devolve. 10p of each

band of tax will be given to the assembly if there is our yes vote.

We think the assembly government should be grasping the opportunity

for going for a referendum as early as possible, and that would have to

be predicated on the pledge to reduce the Welsh rate of tax, and I

think that is a massive opportunity for the Welsh government. Do you

recognise the claim by Labour and others that this is a trap you are

setting? Not at all. If the Welsh government want to be treated as a

McEwan institution and be held accountable, they need to be in a

position where they can see we are responsible for this element of tax

and will treat it with respect and deliver a lower rate of tax. I think

that is a massive opportunity to grow the Welsh economy and it also

gives them access to a larger borrowings dream which is what the

Labour Party say they want. Why would it make sense to embrace these

powers of the fundamental settlement is not in place? Carwyn Jones may

see that but his administration agreed with us in 2012, a formula by

which the issue of convergence would be examined at this stage. This has

happened and what expenditure at a national level declining, there is

less likely to be convergence. I think it looks awfully like the

Welsh government making excuses for not taking on the accountability

that I think people want to see. Are they also when your view making

excuses about rail electrification? Rail electrification is important to

South Wales. We made the commitment and entered agreement with the Welsh

government and that was evidenced in correspondence between Justin

Greening and Carl Sargeant, the Welsh Minister. There is also a long

audit Trail of correspondence following that which makes it

absolutely clear what we have the United Kingdom government are doing

and what they as the Welsh government had expected to do,

including most importantly an e-mail from the office of rail regulation

that says the Welsh government would pay for the relevant work. I think

that really what people want to see is the lion lecture five and rather

than engaging in megaphone diplomacy, I would prefer if he ask

Edwina Hart to have an early meeting with Patrick McLoughlin, the

transport secretary, and resolve whatever difficulties they seem to

have. If you cannot afford, talk to the transport secretary, but to

engage in this sort of grandstanding does not help matters much. When the

Prime Minister said, I know we need these infrastructure investments in

Wales and it is this government that is putting money into

electrification, and of course the Valley lines. When he said that was

he wrong to include the Valley lines? The Prime Minister indicated

we are supporting directly and indirectly the upgrading of the

infrastructure, but really, one has to look at the correspondence that

has continued between ministers and between officials in the Department

of Transport and the Welsh government. It is absolutely crystal

clear of the Welsh government weren't going to be paying for the

portion of the work, and if they are now saying they are having

difficulty affording that, they should be speaking to the transport

secretary. Thank you for joining us. It seems big business is becoming

less of a man's world. Women now account for 20% of board members in

FTSE 100 companies, but it is not reflected in Wales. New research

shows little progress has been made in getting more women into positions

of power and influence. The Wales Report has surveyed 61 of Wales's

key public sector organisations and just one in five is led by a woman.

In the private sector, the latest figures from the Equality and Human

Rights Commission Wales found that among the 100 top companies

operating in Wales, just two had female chief executives.

In the world of politics, just seven of 40 Welsh MPs are women. There are

three members of the Welsh cabinet and just over a quarter of

councillors in Wales are women. In a moment I'll be talking with one of

Wales's most prominent business women, Laura Tenison, about the

challenges. But first, Professor Laura McAllister, chair of Sport

Wales, offers her thoughts on getting more women into boardrooms

and businesses. When I was playing football, when I

got selected to play for Wales I believe that was because I was the

best player in that position. I don't think that happens in other

areas of professional life, because there are whole layer of more

complex factors that determine how women get selected to do things.

In lots of environments, it becomes apparent that the setup, whether the

meeting or conference or dialogue, has been designed by men for men so

often it is the loudest voice that gains most credibility. The

traditional setup for the lot of leadership situations has been very

old-fashioned and I think it is important that by having more

diverse leaders we push the boundaries and debunk them as valid

ways of operating a business. I do not tolerate lack of diversity

at any stage in our organisation, so we would put up -- never put up a

panel of all-male Laurel female voices to speak to an audience

because I think it is important to have different views and life

experiences. There are lots of men and women who

would say, I want to be chosen on merit, not simply because I'm a

woman only black person. I understand that but let's examine

that meritocracy concepts. If you really believe that we

operate according to a meritocracy, you need to ask yourself, why 80% of

the powerful jobs in Wales held by men? What I always say when I talk

to audiences about this is especially fathers with daughters,

are you comfortable with the fact your eight-year-old daughter will

not have the opportunities as you have eight-year-old son? The answers

is one of complete horror. We have two really accelerate the changes

that are happening and unless we are prepared to sacrifice our daughters

and their daughters until we get proper equality.

That was Laura McAllister, chair of Sport Wales. Joining me now is Laura

Tenison who founded JoJoMamanBebe, the high street clothing chain for

babies and mothers. Good to have you back. It was a bit depressing in

those terms because she laid it on the line. What is your analysis of

what is still going wrong and 2014 in trying to correct this balance?

We have to remember how far we've come. When I was growing up, gender

stereotyping from childhood was rife. Today's parents want their

children to succeed regardless of their gender and I think things are

improving, have improved hugely in the last 20 years, and if we put

quarters in place, it could set us back at least ten years. -- quotas.

Her point is if we have an open meritocracy it is not getting as the

results so maybe it is time to look at more rigorous ways of forcing the

balance? Yes, but they do not give the right impression. If we become

talk ends on board we will get more discrimination. Where men can prove

they are good at their job. It is like the here and tortoise. Women

can run businesses for longevity without too many mistakes and men

rush ahead looking for an exit strategy. When a look at building

communities. It is well proven that women reinvest their local

businesses and run businesses with a safe mantra. Ambition is something I

want to talk about because Laura mentioned the eight-year-old girl in

comparison with her brother. Is there a problem with levels of

ambition in particular in Wales and those that become more acute

relating to young girls and teenage girls looking at career prospects? I

get slightly depressed when I see how obsessed with fat US seems some

of the generals in this country are, because the reality is we should be

aspiring to be brain surgeons or at least managers in the workplace. The

other statistic that stood out was 80% of top jobs in Wales are held by

men. Is that simply a traditional cultural thing? Is that really

telling us that in 2014 we still have attitudes which are frankly

old-fashioned and I am wondering is Wales lagging behind the rest of the

UK? We absolutely are lagging behind. We are something like three

percentage points behind the UK and it is something that needs to be

done but not with a quota. We need to accept that where men are good at

things and promote them. We hold ourselves back and lack the

confidence. When you need a job done, ask a busy woman. She will fit

it somehow rant juggle everything else. Where men are very good at

multitasking in a way men are not always. We need to be careful not to

gender stereotype ourselves but the reality is where men are great at

adding diversity to the workplace and adding qualities men do not

always have. In Wales, we have a lot of dinosaurs and that comes from the

fact we had male dominated industries in the past but things

are changing, so let's just be patient and let the dinosaurs

retired and there is a new breed of ambitious girls coming through. I

think we will have a different story in about ten years.

That's all we have time for tonight. We'll be taking a break for a few

weeks, but will return to your screens after Easter. In the

meantime you can get in touch with us about the issues discussed

tonight, or indeed anything else. Email us at

[email protected], and we are Twitter: @thewalesreport.

Thanks for watching. Good night. Nos da.