02/12/2015 The Wales Report


A special Wales Report where a studio audience gets a chance to put questions to first minister Carwyn Jones. Presented by Bethan Rhys Roberts.

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With five months to go until the Assembly elections in May,


a studio audience put their questions on the service, the


economy and much more to the First Minister, Labour's Carwyn Jones.


Good evening and welcome to The Wales Report.


You join us tonight for a special programme.


It's been an eventful year in politics and next year is shaping


up to be just as busy with the Assembly elections on the horizon


and a possible in-out referendum on Britain's membership of the EU.


So what are the burning issues that you want to discuss?


Are you happy with the way the way your health service is being run?


Are schools in Wales getting top marks from you?


Is the Welsh economy a source for optimism or concern?


Tonight, we have a studio audience who have


plenty of questions for the man at the helm here in Wales, the First


Remember, you too can have your say on social media.


But first tonight, MPs are currently debating.


That was on whether the UK should join on the bombing of so-called


Islamic State targets in Syria. I would have voted against. I think


the Prime Minister has not made the case for air strikes on their own.


But if you want to bring peace to Syria, you have got to have a plan.


Which ground forces do you support in order to do that? If you do that,


what air strikes do you need? None of that has been done. At the end of


the day, my greatest fear is we will end up with air strikes and the


whole thing will be forgotten about. Nobody will do the work that is


needed for peace and security in Syria. Then needed to be a


statesman-like attitude from the Prime Minister and what did we see?


He said anyone against him was a terrorist sympathiser. Regardless of


how MPs vote tonight, their views should be respected, but I did in


the case has been made. What about your party? You have a leader in you


against military action and yet a man who would like to be Foreign


Secretary for military action. We are in government in Wales. But


there are different views within the Labour Party and the Conservative


Party. Every Conservative MP will back -- will not back military


action. I have not seen anything that will lead to peace and security


in Syria. The debates on military action can carry on.


Now, let's move on to our first topic - the Welsh NHS.


Our first question tonight comes from Chris O'Callghan,


With ever increasing demand on the NHS but only limited resources and


It's a real challenge for governments around the world. Our


health budgeted 46% of our total budget. We spend more on health than


ever before. We have had new bills going up and Aberystwyth, Swansea,


but we know that there is ever demand. We see it in orthopaedics


and A But we are determined to keep the current situation, which is


we spend more than England per head on health and continue to spend what


we need in the health service the people want. Of course there are


pressures and of course there are challenges. But if you look at what


we have done in terms of increasing funding and the numbers of doctors


and nurses, we're in the best position ever in that regard. You


work in health service? I have worked in the NHS for 12 years now.


I have concerns about the cancer care provisions in Wales. When you


look at scanning, we provide very limited services for referral


criteria is wearers NHS England have up to 18 reasons why having a scam.


How do we move ourselves up to parity the NHS England? Any other


points on comparing the health service in Wales and England? Any


other experiences? The gentlemen of the vendor back. I am concerned


about the amount of cancer patients have to move to England to get


reasonable treatment. If you look at what is happening with cancer, you


have a quicker route to treatment in Wales than England and we know that


from our own figures. You get access to approved cancer drugs more


quickly as well. The other point is that England had its Cancer Drugs


Fund and it is disappearing. What we want to do is make sure people had


access to the treatment that would work for them as quickly as


possible. In terms of the issue here, in terms of scanning, we


always look at ways to review the procedures we used to make them more


effective. We do know that when it comes to the urgent route with


cancer treatment and the nonurgent route, it's not a competition but we


are ahead of England. We want to make sure it stays that way. Any


other points from the audience? We be at preventative health care such


as eco-therapy which has been approved around the world to help


people's mental and physical well-being and also save money for


the NHS? We are always looking at ways to encourage preventative


health care. We know that if we can ensure that fewer people smoke, we


will see fewer people with heart disease and strokes further down the


line. We try and get the balance right. It's difficult because we


know that demand was goes up in a deep, orthopaedics and other areas,


but it is important not to lose focus of the need to ensure that


people are in a position where they avoid having serious conditions as


they get older. Can I ask about GP 's surgery? In your 2011 election


pledge, it was to improve access to GB's surgeries but that has actually


gone down and Wales now has fewer GP's surgeries. Access to GPs has


gone up in terms of evening access and weekends. Statistics say they've


gone down. We know more surgeries are open in the evenings than ever


before. The challenge is to ensure consistency across Wales. In


Bridgend, they are open some evenings, an online appointment for


operations and ordering prescriptions, and we need to make


sure that good practices extended to other surgeries. It was 11% in 2013


but down to 7% in 2014. I can only talk from my own GP's surgery. When


I first registered there, they were opened five and a half days a week


and now they are open three. If you are ill on a Tuesday or Wednesday,


you need to go somewhere else or wait until Thursday or Friday, and


in the New Year, the surgery itself will close down. It closes at 4pm as


well. There is no reason for that. They are mainly private contractors


rather than employed by the NHS but there are good examples of surgeries


are opening in the evenings when it is more convenient for people,


people being able to make appointments online and over the


phone. That is being rolled out across Wales and there's no reason


why surgeries can all have that. We'll Wales's share of the extra


money given to the extra health service be ring fenced like in


England? We already spend more than England does and that will continue.


We are absolutely in the position where we will continue to spend more


on health in Wales per head than England doesn't that will continue


in the future. It isn't ring fenced? Effectively, it is, because England


are spending less than we are. We have had ?110 million extra. We know


that prices will go a further so it is a cut in real terms but a chunk


of that money will be used to make sure that we will spend the amount


of money per head the people expect. People will compare us and we will


stay head of England. Gentleman at the end there. On the subject of


funding, it's true I think that the Welsh NHS uses an awful lot of


agency workers. Why not pay your staff a little bit more, recruit


more and not make millionaires out of those running the agencies? We


encourage local health boards to do exactly that. Sometimes, it's not


possible. More and more doctors are working as locums than ever before.


But we want to make sure that the vast majority of staff permanently


employed. Occasionally, agencies will be used, but that's not


something we would want to see the norm. The gentleman in front there.


The staff have the timings of 12 hours for nurses and doctors. How do


you expect them to work the next day, 12 hours again? I work for


eight hours, so the motivation and effort they do is too much and how


will they cope every day? Is this to do with junior doctors? Every


doctors in hospitals. Bear in mind that England is staring down the


barrel of a junior doctor's strike. My point is that they're human


beings. If you hire other doctors, they can facilitate to their


families. There will be occasions when people have to be brought in in


northern to cover perhaps surge in demand. That will be normal within


the health service where that demand surges. I have seen every time in


the hospital... Sometimes, they have to be hospitalised. Every time they


do 12 hours, sometimes they do overnight, 36 hours. Let's go back


to our question. Do you feel that the health service has improved


after 15 years of a Labour government? We are on a turning


point and it could go either way. We need more money for our patients to


get better care. Just once that there is worth bearing in mind, our


budget has gone down by more than ?1 billion in the last four years but


we have managed to keep health spending up. At the end of the day,


we have seen a 10% cut from our budget. Despite all that, we have


managed to keep health spending ahead of England but also, four


years ago, health was 41% of our spending an hour to 46%, so we have


taken difficult decisions despite cuts coming from the Tories. You


also have one health service in special measures and confidence is


at an all-time low. You had a decision last night where you have


got the bosses rolling back on reorganisation. A few years ago, you


said the NHS would collapse about reorganisation. Reorganisation is


not happening in your policy is collapsing. If you look at Betsy, it


is common for this to happen, but it has happened in Wales. We ensured


that it was put under special measures in order to see work done


to get it where we were last night. Let's face it, if the Welsh


government did not take action it did, we would not have seen the


report produced last night and there would not been the opportunity to


continue with consultant led maternity units in Betsy. That has


happened because of the action taken by the Welsh Labour government.


Let's move on to the economy. Our second question tonight


comes from Yahya Pandor. Wales still qualifies to receive


handouts from the EU, there are lots of people on benefits and


empty shops on our high streets. After 15 years of Labour government,


why is Wales so poor? There are some reasons that are


there because of what happened in the 80s, the fact that we lost so


many that time. But if you look at our economic figures, we had the


best foreign direct investment figures, I got investment into


Wales, from Canada, India, in the North, all because of the work we


did. We have also had the most successful job placement scheme in


Europe. We had 17,000 youngsters who had an opportunity of a work


placement and 80% of gone on to other jobs or further and higher


education. That's because we listen to businesses. Businesses were


saying, we would like to take somebody on but we cannot afford the


time or money to train them so we have now a bridge that gap.


The one thing we won't do is what happened in the late 1980s and the


1990s was the government saying to come to Wales because the wage rates


are so low, the lowest in Europe. Those days are long gone. The


investment now is for highly skilled and highly paid jobs. Earnings in


Wales are lower than in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England, why is


that? They are. Some of that is historic but the gap is closing. We


know that. If you look at domestic household income which measures


income according to where people live, that gap has been closing for


a long time. There are challenges to make sure that investment is spread


around Wales and it does not will go to the north-east and the south-east


and if you look at the work that has been done in Swansea there is a


fantastic new campus for college and a railway station and that is all


designed to bring investment into that part of Wales. A few hands up.


Historically you look at the Welsh economy and we have always merged


with Liverpool and Manchester, we can just look at those areas now I


just wish. If you boys were not there, we would be working a lot


harder with them and benefiting from the boom in the south-west of


England and Bristol. More corporation across-the-board is?


That is true, economically that is right and that is why we have


announced plans to work with the Northern Powerhouse in England. It


is normal in other parts of Europe so why should it be different in


Wales? The reality is that if we look at the south-west of England,


it is a competitor for us as well and we have to make sure that people


will come to Wales. We have never had a higher profile at


international level which is why we are seeing the investment. Today I


was opening a new office in Cardiff bringing 700 jobs into Cardiff


because of the work we have done to work with businesses to get those


investments in. What about North Wales? If you look at air bus and


also a Japanese company that we have coming into Deeside. We have


opportunities on angle side -- Anglesey and Lockheed Martin are


working with the college to maximise the opportunities for local people


when the power station is built and comes online. We need an UK


Government to do its bit. What happened to electrification? We were


told the mainline would be electrified by 2018 and now it is


Twenty20 four, and the message that gives out is that Swansea is somehow


the end of the line. Where is the work being done on the tidal


agreement in Swansea Bay which could create thousands of jobs, nothing.


We are doing our bit but we need a UK Government to do its bit as well.


The man at the back. You keep coming back in regard to the economy to


Swansea and Steve 's side, but what about Blaenau Gwent and areas like


that that do not have major towns and cities? If you look at Ebbw


Vale, the new development at the steelworks, we know that Merthyr is


attracting jobs and the general dynamics, we know that they are


looking at Merthyr and other jobs are there as well. Why? Because of


the work that has been done at the heads of the valleys and making our


communities more connected and the work that has been done with


transport. One of the reason is way above is attracting investment is


the fact that we opened up a railway line and made sure that it was more


connected as a town, not just for bringing people into Cardiff but


investment at Ebbw Vale as well. The other thing that is important is


broadband. Broadband in the 21st-century is the equivalent of


railway lines in the 19th century, if you are not connected then you


are not connected with your market. By April 20, 1796 present premises


in Wales will have access to superfast broadband, the market


would never deliver that. We are paying for it to make sure that


wherever you live in Wales you have access to that level of speed. A


feeling the poverty gap in Wales for some people. Any comments on that?


The gap is widening between the cities and the more industrial...


The chap the specs. I was going to say do you think we are attracting


investment and business without subsidy because it is good to be in


Wales or with Welsh government subsidy? The financial support we


give is important but all governments do this. Everybody puts


a financial package on the table and if we did not do it we would be


trumped by everyone else, but it is more than that. People are saying


that they like having a government they can talk to and it is


accessible, they can get decisions because they are taken very quickly.


That is the advantage of our size and having a government based in


Wales. They also say that we have the skills that they need. If you


are a business the financial package is one thing but you have to make


sure that you have the business there to keep the business going and


we find people saying they are happy with the people that they have in


Wales and they like their commitment and their skills and that message is


getting out there. The gentleman there. You mentioned superfast


broadband as a key investment but why did we not look at 4G and five


June rather than putting cables through? You are right about the


cell phone connections but we do not directly control or pay for those.


The companies have said they will extend coverage across Wales but in


other parts it is inexplicable. Anglesey is flat spotted many parts


you cannot get mobile phone reception it does not seem to make


sense to me so they need to invest the money and making sure we get


mobile phone reception as well across Wales. What we did was look


at broadband particularly, the cabling to make sure we had


superfast broadband available for as many premises as possible. Some are


difficult to reach but there will be other solutions for them. It means


that where ever you are in Wales, which of the village of living, you


will have access to the level of broadband speed that is available in


Cardiff. A question from down the front here. It is great and to be


commended that we are getting new jobs into Wales but new jobs means


either new people coming into Wales or it means people moving around


Wales and ultimately we are facing a housing crisis in Wales, so what


will we do about housing these people? You are right to say that


with some businesses they do bring some of their people investment in


time they are replaced with people locally. I give you an example, a


film -- creative industries and film production is really booming at the


moment and they bring their own people in but then they create


opportunities for training for local people and they create jobs locally.


An example I had last week was of a scaffolding company in Merthyr that


is going great guns, providing reading for the film sets. In fact


it does provide jobs for people even though some people have been brought


in originally. You mentioned housing. We know that we have helped


to buy as a scheme that is helping people to buy their own houses and


we're on target to build the houses that said we would build which is


about 10,000. We know, of course, that many of those houses have to be


affordable, things like shared equity schemes are important and


also affordable houses to rent. Those things are important in terms


of the mix. Can I bring you back to the original question which kicked


off in terms of European funding. ?2 billion comes into Wales over six


years or so. Your predecessor said in 2000 that it was a


once-in-a-lifetime chance for Wales and we still qualify, 15 years on.


Are you disappointed or ashamed that we still qualify? I do not want to


qualify again. We want to be in a position where we have less money


and that much is true. What we are seeing in terms of job creation and


investment that is coming in is incredible. I see our young people


are much more likely to setup their own businesses than my generation


ever were. We never lacked the skills in terms of people having the


good ideas but they often lack the confidence to set up their own


businesses and now that is changing and I want to see that change


because I came from a background when I was self-employed before I


came into politics and that is the big change that we are seeing. It is


one thing to bring jobs in but what is important is to ensure that they


are jobs that are well paid and they will stay in Wales and that is what


we have aimed at and that is what we have done in terms of the jobs that


are coming. You paint a pretty rosy picture of the economy here in


Wales. We have a straw poll now, who feels that since devolution the


economy is on the up? One person. Who feels it is perhaps not on the


way up, it is suffering and going down because of devolution? You


would rather go back to pre-devolution anybody? Yes. Let us


hear from you, the gentleman in the leather jacket. You want to go back


to pre-devolution? Definitely. I am from Newport and I am a


Monmouthshire man and we never supported anyway and frankly I think


we got it right. Carwyn Jones is very impressive in what he just said


and if he had just walked into the room and you did not know that we're


in the Senate coming up for 16 years I think it would be very impressed.


The main thing is that we still have an unemployment rate at 1% higher in


Wales than in the rest of the country and it seems to vary from


month to month. We catch up one month and then we go out to sink the


following month, which is rather... It doesn't seem to be a steady ship.


It is up and down, that's true but if you compare where we used to be


which was always way above the UK average, that has been a major


difference. We go out there and we sell Wales. One of the biggest


opportunities we had was when the regional development units went in


England and the competition disappeared and then it has been


easier for us to attract jobs into Wales. If we do not sell Wales, no


one else will do it. But we have never sold Wales, that is the


problem. Where I live you have the top ten cycling, off-road cycling


places in the world and we have not even got a decent hotel up there. It


could employ... There are 80,000 90,000 people from all over


Britain, and we're not talking about people on the breadline comedies are


wealthy people who bring their mountain bikes, some of which are


worth 6000 ?7,000 a time, so these people are not on the breadline, and


we have an area high unemployment and where did the Olympic Miettunen


biking take place? It was in Essex. I just cannot... You have a Labour


government in power at the time and someone in the Wales should have


been banging the table and saying we want the mountain biking, and that


is just an example. You have got... I had a cruise to New York a couple


of years ago and on the first night there were mostly American people on


the ship and the first night had under milk Wood with all Americans.


We do not push that Dylan Thomas tours. We have got Richard Burton


just up the road and all of these things are tourism for Wales but


they never seem to come to anything. We have seen a lot of development


with ponds and the visitor centre and a lot of people have let out


houses in a village for the mountain bikers because a lot of people want


self-catering accommodation so there has been development in that area.


We did have a big event in America for Dylan Thomas's centenary. There


were events in New York with performances across America, so we


did that work. The question I posed you as this, in the last 15 years we


have had the Rugby World Rugby union World Cup, the Champions League


coming, we have had the Ryder Cup matches test and none of those


things would have come come without a Welsh government going into bat


for Wales. Without us doing they would never have come in the first


place. I talk to Uefa and I make sure that the Champions League came


to Cardiff and they fulfil that promise. In years gone by there


would have been no want to come to say they would never have come. A


quick comment from the man behind two is very angry. If you are that


great why did Burberry and Bosch relocate to England? If you really


want to stimulate the Russian economy, are you going to seize


these income tax powers and drop our income tax rates in Wales? We might


come onto that. That is a clothes. There are opportunities with


business rates. Now we have control of business rates, which we did not


have before, one of the things we are looking at is putting together a


competitive package in regards to business rates and that will make a


difference. It was a shame that we did not get air passenger duty.


Scotland has had it and it would make a huge difference to Cardiff


airport and other airports as well and they could become real economic


drivers but we have been denied that for some reason, even though it was


given on a plate to Scotland. Wales' education system is


underperforming in international rankings and progress


on literacy and numeracy is slow. Has your government failed


a generation of schoolchildren? As somebody who has kids in a


comprehensive and came from a comprehensive, I have a real stake


in education. Let us look at education. There needs to be


improvement in the figures and we have been working the schools in


regards to doing that. Education spending is higher per head than in


England and we are building new schools, 150 schools have been built


or refurbished and Wales in the past few years. I was in Aberdare


comprehensive school which was newly built and funded by the local


authority and Welsh government and I was in another high school that has


been built so we are investing that in our children's futures in a way


that just did not happen when I was in school in the 1980s. We have just


had the best GCSE results ever in Wales, just confirmed today, and


they are more recent than the other figures. I think there is a lot to


celebrate and our teachers are doing a great job for us and the one area


we now need to focus on is making sure we improve in the rankings. On


those rankings, you have change the target and he wanted to be in the 20


best performing countries in the world and you change the target


because you were not heading that way.


All the indications we have had, the tests that have taken place, they


all point in the right direction, so I am confident we will improve. It's


important that we have tests. I am a parent and to be able to have tests


in terms of literacy in numerous is important to you can compare how


your child is doing and how they are doing against their peer groups.


That was something that in the past, we didn't get right. To go


back to the question, you said you didn't get it right. You have also


said in the past you have taken your eye off the ball, you posted. Or do


you say to the parents and pupils who were going through the system? I


didn't say we coasted. We took our eye off the ball and I think that's


fair because when testing was replaced by in school assessments, I


don't think those assessments were right. We couldn't work out why we


were outperforming English children and then falling behind them after


14. That was something to do with the fact that the methods of


assessment were not consistent but that has gone now. A importance can


measure where their children are. Let's take a comment from the middle


here and the lady in pink on the end. I don't recognise the system. I


have worked in the sector for 11 years. The last five years have been


one of constant change and redundancies and pay cuts and losing


colleagues in subject areas. It is constantly changing. When will


settle down? And when will we be consulted? Always consulted last


when things have happened not when things have happened not when things


are taking place. I'm about to go into the fold changes to GCSEs and


almost as many years. I am a primary school teacher in Cardiff and I have


no objection to tests but I do have concerns that a lot of emphasis is


put on statistics and league tables. We have got children living in


terrible poverty in the capital city. They can't for breakfast or


lunch. What will we do to support the families to do the parenting so


that parents -- teachers can do the teaching? We have had a cut of 10%


in our budget in some areas of seeing reductions in funding. We


know there have been difficulties. We have a budget statement next week


and we are looking at ways to make sure that F E is in a less difficult


position but it has been hard on the sector. We have not been able to


keep up spending on everything given the fact that our budget has been


cut by a Tory government in London. We don't have league tables. There


were always simplistic comparators. Much better to have a system of


testing where teachers and parents know where children are in terms of


measuring them against a national standard. There is huge pressure on


schools to meet standards when children don't have the basic rights


of being a human being. You are right to point out that emphasis has


to be placed on improving the life chances of children when they


arrive. That is what the foundation phase is there to do. I have


examples of teachers on my part of Wales single, children arrive here


and they can't speak. Had we get around that? We have doubled the


numbers of families who have access to flying start to help parenting


skills to make sure the children arrive school school ready. We have


seen that weather has not happened. With respect, it isn't working. We


are acting as social workers, caregivers, I could list a


horrendous stories, just from this week. I want to be able to give


those children a chance to live and thrive and live to their potential


but they are not even eating. What do you think would help? There needs


to be more support for parents and families that isn't coming through


schools. It needs to be... There needs to be an extension of the


school system so teachers are not doing those jobs as well. I work 70


hours a week. I can't keep going. I appreciate that. It's not your job.


We have got schemes like flying start and we need to make sure they


are effective. But we still have examples of children who come in and


they are already behind. The foundation phase will help them to


catch up but it is still a lot of work. Lots of concerns in education.


I must ask you about last night's BBC Wales investigation. This


revealed a scam at a private college in Cardiff. Are you concerned about


governance and regulation in this instance and specifically, the role


of the government in this? It is an English College with a branch in


Wales. It is a unique case. We have referred it to the police. They will


conduct the investigation is now. There were regulations on the table


anyway in order to further control that, so they were already prepared.


But you are confident you are on it? Yes, that is why we referred it to


the police. There is only one example of this in Wales, so we are


fairly confident this is a unique case and there are regulations


already repaired to be taken forward which was happening anyway to make


sure that any loopholes closed. Let's move on to question number


four. It's about devolution. We have heard a lot of discussion about


existing devolved powers. What powers do you hope for in the next


five years? And what you propose to do if you form the next government?


I would not look to increase income tax. If you reducing contacts, there


is a hidden Welsh government. The Conservatives said they would cut


the higher rate by 5% but the standard rate by 1%. That statement


was made within hours of the statement made by the Chancellor.


You have to assess the things properly. I would like to do more


with business rates. I would love to do a passenger duty. That would be


an enormous boost to the Welsh economy. In terms of powers for the


future, what worries me the moment is there is a bill on the table in


Westminster which would have the effect of reversing the referendum


in 2011. There was a referendum on whether the Assembly should have


lawmaking powers and yesterday, an act came into force in Wales. We


couldn't have done that without those powers. But what we are facing


now is someone trying to reverse the result. That is not democracy, it


can't be. We need to make sure we are treated with the same respect to


Scotland and we are not. We are clear as to who does what we don't


have that. We should sit down and work out what the future of the UK


as a whole is as well. On income tax, there is likely to be a big


issue in the election, you are going to go on as a party, saying, we will


not raise income tax? How would that go down here? Anybody happy to pay


more income tax? Lots of hands going up. Who thinks the First Minister is


right? One. No, more. People are willing to pay more. Why not put


them get more into the coffers? If you put up a high rate, there are


relatively few rate taxpayers compared to the rest of the UK. In


terms of increasing... Putting 1p on the standard rate, it raises about


?70 million. In terms of a budget of ?50 billion, it is a huge amount


more. In the future, what parties will have to look at is looking at


increasing income tax to pay for a specific thing. You don't know when


we will have this power, the funding situation we have still precarious.


Bear in mind that 80% of our funding must all come from the Treasury and


we are funded per head less than Scotland and Northern Ireland. I


don't want is this to become an excuse for the Treasury to say, we


will look at the fact you are underfunded, racial and money.


That's not fair. The question said five years on, so 20 years into


devolution, if you are still First Minister, do you want to say,


devolution has delivered this, what? Confidence. We as a nation had


no confidence at all. We expected to have jobs that were not well paid,


we expected to have not very much, our youngsters did not expect


opportunities but those days are changing. We have a government in


Wales that can sell Wales, that is elected by the people of Wales, that


isn't in a position have someone like John Redwood who stayed one


night in Wales and was trying to govern Wales. We have a democracy


now. If you don't like what I say, you have the opportunity to vote me


out. You would have had no such opportunity if I was Secretary of


State. If you'd like to get in touch with


us about the issues discussed tonight or anything else, email us


or follow us on social media. We'll be back in the New Year, but


until then, thanks for watching.


Bethan Rhys Roberts asks the questions that matter to you about your job, your health, your future. Calling to account the decision-makers here in Wales and beyond our borders too, each week the team bring you in-depth reports on pressing issues that matter to the lives of everyone living in Wales.

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