10/06/2016 The Week in Parliament

Hello and welcome to the Week In Parliament.

We're in the home straight.

The finishing-line is in sight.

The EU Referendum battle hots up in the Commons.

Will he stop denigrating our great country?

This is a sign, if any were needed,

he is losing the argument.

What I want to see is not Nhgel Farage's Little England, I want to

see a strong Britain in Europe.

They have lots of referenduls in places like Ireland and Switzerland.

So shouldn't we have a few lore

Well, maybe not.

It is tearing the parties apart and it

is very difficult for the politicians.

It is difficult to imagine they would want to hold mord

referendums if they can possibly avoid it.

Meanwhile, a good week

for Parliament's committees.

In the saga of British Home Stores, the allegations about the m`n

who bought the shop for a pound turn nasty.

I think the technical term is a mythomaniac.

The layperson's term as he was a Premier League liar

and a Sunday pub league retailer at best.

But first, a healthy democratic exercise?

Or a seriously divisive thrdat to the unity of Britain's

political parties?

However the 2016 EU Referendum campaign comes to be viewed,

there's no doubt about the intensity of the arguments,

with the two sides certain to keep fighting up to the wire.

The week was marked by two ex-Prime Ministers side by side

in Northern Ireland, campaigning for the UK

to remain in the EU,

a high-profile defection from the Leave camp to the Remain

side, the sharpest of exchanges between the two camps

in a live TV debate, and the inevitable brightly

coloured battlebus, completd with a striking message,

touring round the country.

Back at Westminster, the air didn't turn blue

inside the House of Commons, but the exchanges were

certainly blue on blue at Prime Minister's Questions.

The Prime Minister has repe`tedly stated that he secured changes to

reform the EU.

Will he now confirm that on the 23rd June the voters are

not guaranteed any treaty change in EU law as no treaty change was

achieved, despite a promise to deliver one, and an international

agreement cannot change EU law?

Finally, will he stop denigrating our great

country because it is a saying,

if any were needed, he is losing argument.

I don't accept for one minute that in any way supporting Britahn being

a member of the reformed European Union is doing a country down.

I think if you love your country you want to be

strong in the world.

If you love your country yot want opportunities for your young people.

If you love your country yot don't want to act in a way that could lead

to its break-up and that is why I want to see not Nigel Far`ge's

Little England, I want to sde a strong Britain in Europe.

Does my right honourable frhend accept that the referendum hs not a

consultation but an instruction to Parliament

from the British people?

Is it not therefore incumbent on all of us to accept in advance

that remain would mean remahn and leave would mean leave `nd any

attempt to short-change or distort the verdict of the British people

would be a democratic outrage?

I think he is absolutely right.

Every vote counts the same.

The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn highlighted the splits in the ranks

of Tory ministers.

He will be aware, Mr Speaker, that the Labour position is that we want

to stay in the European Union to improve workers' rights,

tackle exploitation, drive down tax evasion and tax avoidance.

But we are concerned that these issues are not

the priorities of members of his government in his party such

as the member for Uxbridge,

the member for Surrey Heath and the member for Whitham.

They are trying to destroy `ny of the social advances

made within the European Unhon.

Does he talk to a them about this at any time

and do they speak for themselves or him

and his government?

And if they speak for themsdlves, how are they ministers

at the same time?

And here I am trying to be so consensual.

I am doing my best.

I could of course mention that the honourable

member for Edgbaston was out yesterday

spinning for Nigel Farage.

But I don't want to play th`t game.

I want to stress the unity of purpose there is.

Will the Prime Minister address an issue that the Remain

campaign has so far fudged in that our present

immigration policy, in all truthfulness,

cannot control numbers coming in from the EU for the benefit

of our public services but also actually discrimin`tes

against the rest of the world outside the EU?

Having spent my evening yesterday with Mr Farage, I'm confused about

what it is that the Leave c`mpaign actually want when it comes

to immigration.

I thought they wanted less immigration but seem to want

more immigration from outside the EU into our country.

So, Prime Minister's Question Time displaying the deep divisions

within the Conservative Party at Westminster.

But are referendums good thhngs

The public gets to decide a major national issue.

Some countries have lots of them.

In Switzerland there've been no fewer than 600 national refdrendums

in the last century and a h`lf.

One recent referendum was on the issue of whether to

have fewer referendums.

In a moment we'll talk to an expert on public participation in politics.

The Republic of Ireland also regularly seeks the views

of its people on a variety of political and social isstes.

Irish TV journalist Fiona Mitchell has covered lany

a referendum campaign.

I asked her for her impresshons of the current campaign in the UK.

It has been an interesting campaign because we have known it was going

to happen or thought it was quick to happen

since 2013 and then known it was going

to happen when the election was won outright

by the Conservatives.

It has been quite a long campaign for journalists and

politicians and people watching these kind of things.

But I think it is interesting that I really feel

the public have only begun to become engaged on it in the last

couple of weeks.

It is something you generally see.

It waits until closer to thd date before it feels as if

the general public is as engaged in the debate as everyone else.

And I think it is quite good that the public

are becoming engaged in the debate

because of course there is always the worry

in something like this that they won't be engaged `t all.

There are referendums on other issues, for example same-sex

marriage.

Does the public in the Republic of Ireland get involved in

these issues?

Certainly the same-sex marrhage referendum was one that eng`ged

people at a huge level and H think surprisingly people didn't dxpect

at the outset that there would be such engagement

from the general public

and the there would be such openness and debate and discussion about it.

There was a huge positivity in that campaign and that is the sort

of thing we did talk about the difference between a social

referendum and a political referendum.

I think that was an easy thhng for people to engage with at a

social and personal level and there was a lot of positivity arotnd that.

I think most politicians, if they could garner that

positivity, would be very happy to do so.

But it is harder to do that when you are

talking about EU policy.

Do you believe that the UK could learn anything from the Irish

experience of referendums?

As you say, much more plentiful in an Ireland.

We have had 9 since Ireland joined the then EEC in 1972

along with Britain and Denm`rk.

We joined up at the same tile.

9 since that including two that had to be

essentially rerun.

And both Nice and Lisbon were initially rejected by

the Irish electorate but they were then

rerun and accepted by the electorate.

I think it would be wrong to try and compare those

referenda with what is going on now because those referendums wdre

different insofar as they wdre not as straightforward as an in/out

question.

You're really not looking to compare like with like.

You are looking at a differdnt referendum

that talks about specific issues within the EU but it is not talking

about leaving the EU and I think that is a much, much bigger issue.

That was Fiona Mitchell, London correspondent for RTD.

I'm joined in the studio now by Alan Rennick, who

is the deputy director of the Constitution Unit at UCL

University College London.

What is your take on events?

Has it been a good referendum campaign?

I think a good referendum c`mpaign is partly one that is livelx.

People need to find that thdre is a referendum taking placd.

It has certainly been that.

But I think a good campaign also needs to inform

the public about the issues and allow the people to make a decision

that is really based on a solid understanding of the issues.

And has there been enough information?

There has been a lot of information but a lot of it has been

incorrect and there has been misleading statements

coming from both sides.

What could have been done bdtter?

Some countries have thought carefully about this and have tried

to create systems which redtce the chances that campaigns will

engage in misleading inform`tion.

In New Zealand, for example, the electoral

commission not only runs the referendum, as happens here but

also gets a lot of informathon on the options that are avahlable.

It sets out what the options are.

It indicates to people how they may choose

between those options, what sort of criteria

they might use to judge the options.

It kind of gives the evidence on, well, how do the

options measure up against these criteria?

It gives quite a lot of official information.

And then also if a lot of the campaigns do see

things in the course of the campaign that

it comes out and says that hs wrong.

The trouble is, if we had an actual official arbiter with a caphtal A,

wouldn't he or she just be seen as part of the establishment and

wouldn't really get the full trust of the voters?

I think that is a danger.

We've seen it work in New Zdaland.

Have seen it work in Ireland as well.

In those places, at least so far,

this antiestablishment rhetoric hasn't really got going any

referendum campaign and it has been possible for both sides to respect

the decision made by one of these organisations and for the mddia to

respect that as well.

In this referendum in particular we have

seen a really strong antiestablishment tone.

It is difficult to see how we could overcome that.

It is the danger that that kind of organisation gets

criticised as being part of the establishment

and if so there is not a lot we can do.

It is amazing, other countrhes have referenda on a much more nulerous

and frequent basis.

This is incredibly only the third nationwide

referendum, although there have been plenty of local and regional ones.

Are we likely to see more?

Has it been a good advertisement have more?

I think the trend in the UK has been towards having more referendums

We had referendums for devolved issues, local issues.

And moving in the direction of having more

national referendums.

But frankly the experience of this referendum is

going to make a lot of politicians really stop and question thd degree

of conflict, particularly with the Conservative

with the Labour Party.

It is tearing the parties apart and it is difficult

for the politicians.

It is difficult to imagine it would want to hold

more referendums of the could possibly avoid it and this

referendum, as the referendtm in 1975 on European community

membership at that time, thdy have both been called in order to hold

the governing party to together and neither has

succeeded in doing that.

It makes it very difficult.

Another factor, and this might be a contrast

with 1975 when there was a clear-cut result,

66%-33%, more or less, this one looks as if it is good

to finish much closer.

You think of we got a 52-48 type of result, that is not

going to solve any problems at all?

I think that is right.

We saw the Scottish independence referendum in

2014 a 55-45 result.

That didn't resolve it.

There has been some talk from some people that 60-40 would

resolve it but anything closer than that would not.

It is looking pretty unlikely at the moment.

I think the debate will continue.

On the plus side, the good thing about referendums is that pdople

talk about political issues.

In restaurants, cafes, publhc transport, people are talking about

a big issue in a way that they wouldn't be doing

if they didn't have the votd on 23rd June.

I think that is great but wd need two things to have a vibrant and

effective democracy.

One is that we need people to be engaged an active

and the referendum is helping with that.

The other is that we need pdople to be engaged any thoughtful

way and not just going with gut instincts in either direction and

the danger with this referendum is that we are getting too luch but

instincts, too much making tp opinions on the basis of

misinformation, misunderstandings, and that is a real

problem for democracy.

Some thoughts on referendums, or are they referenda?

For several weeks, if not months, the businessman

Mike Ashley didn't want to come to Westminster

to face MPs' questions.

When the owner of Sports Direct and chairman of Newcastle United

finally did come, no-one can say it wasn't a plain-speaking performance.

The sporting retailer Sports Direct, whose headqu`rters

are at Shirebrook in Derbyshire had been accused of forcing

its employees to accept low rates of pay and to work

in a tough disciplinary envhronment.

Mr Ashley admitted the firm may have outgrown his ability to man`ge it.

You have to accept the internet growth was a phenomenon that none

of us could allow for.

You have to accept, I have to accept, not you,

sorry, that Sports Direct m`de some mistakes as well.

You have to accept that as well

So we have to look to the ftture.

I have offered you guys to come any time you want to now.

I have even offered to come back in a

year if you really want me to.

And I won't have them all rhght

Impossible.

Impossible I can get everything right.

I'm one human being.

So stop it, Paul, please.

Let's keep this positive and let's keep rolling forward.

We are just asking some straightforward

questions.

We heard from a woman who s`id, and I quote, this was said

to her, and I quote, if you want to get a contract

we will talk about it over dinner.

She also said, not just one manager but several.

And she said so and then broke down in

tears.

That's not kind, is it?

That is the total opposite of kind.

That is some sexual predators that need

to be dealt with.

Do you accept that this is happening in your business,

the business you created in your image, this is happdning in

your business?

Well it shouldn't.

If it does it 100% should not be going on.

I don't know what I'm going to be able to put in place to

stop it but at least I'm going to try.

You sit there and say those things to me.

Honestly they are disgusting.

What do you want me to say?

Would you like it if you were me?

That is not happening in Sainsbury's.

How do you know?

It is happening in Sports Dhrect.

Are you certain it is not happening in

Sainsbury's?

Are you absolutely sure?

You can sit here and say thdre is no what you would call sexual

within the office, harassment happening in Sainsbury's?

I think there probably is.

Do you think your company h`s outgrown your ability

to manage it?

Probably a long time ago.

And I realise even though I set up a tiny company in the past which

has remained tiny, and I am an MP that no one has ever heard of

talking to a titan of the btsiness sector, but is it not time that your

own analogy is you woke up one day and your little business was an oil

tanker, you have gone from a dinghy to an oil tanker,

shouldn't you get someone who knows how to sail and

drive an oil tanker?

Possibly, possibly.

I can accept the criticism of some of the things you have said

to me that would actually ldad me to believe that is definitely

outgrown me.

Mike Ashley.

Another day.

Another retail story.

This time the accusations were stronger.

The final owner of British Home Stores, the racing

driver Dominic Chappell, was accused by top BHS

managers of being a liar who had his fingers in the till

Last month came news that the famous retail chain

would be closing all its stores administrators failed

to find a new buyer for it.

BHS had debts of ?1.25 billhon.

At Westminster, the chief executive of BHS, Darren Topp,

said Dominic Chappell had threatened to kill him

in a row over company money.

When asked about the sale of BHS to Mr Chappell,

Mr Topp said Mr Chappell had claimed he was an expert in

turning around businesses.

We needed somebody who could raise finances and we did need solebody

who could deal with our property portfolio.

Unfortunately as time progrdssed that unravelled in terms

of that promise and it becale clear towards the end that rather than

putting money in he had litdrally got his fingers in the till.

What was your sense when you arrived in

June as to the cash position of the company

and ability to finance...

In July.

Sorry, July.

..And to finance expansion?

This was my first interaction with Dominic Chappell

and like many others in this process I think I was duped.

The technical term is mytholania.

The layperson's term is he was a Premier League liar

and a Sunday pub league retailer at best.

Well, when he gave evidence, Dominic Chappell flatly

denied those allegations.

He blamed the store's previous owner, Sir Philip Green,

for the thousands of job losses

Mr Chappell said he and his team had worked flat out to try

to save the business.

Knowing what you know now what would you do

differently next time?

The pension.

It boils down to the pension.

It's the pension side.

We should have spent more time dealing

with the pension prior to acquisition.

We should have ensured that Philip was contractually bound

to produce trade credit insurance for the company.

And knowing what you now know is there anybody you

would like to apologise to?

I am very...

I have said that there are 01,0 0 people directly, and a

number of thousand people indirectly,

who have lost their jobs.

It is a travesty that that has happened.

I am very upset that it has happened and it was avoidable.

And for the record, is that an apology?

That is an apology.

Thank you.

It is your fault that BHS f`iled?

I must stand as the majoritx shareholder in BHS, I must stand

here and say we were part of the downfall of BHS.

The saga of BHS.

Time to take a look at what's been happening in the wider world

of politics over the last fdw days.

With our countdown, here's Billy Hill.

Celebrations in Cardiff as the Queen opened

the fifth session of the

Welsh Assembly, praising it as a strong and accessible institution.

Triumph for the Commons as LPs managed to defeat the Lords at

Westminster's annual tug of war contest.

To OBE or not OBE?

Some peers have called for Government websites to hnclude

honours and titles when completing online forms.

A waiting game for the thred candidates vying to be the

next Lord Speaker.

Peers voted on Wednesday but the winner isn't announced

until June 13.

And good news for would-be voters in the EU referendum

whose attempts to register online were thwarted by a website crash.

The deadline was extended by a further 48 hours to midnight on

Thursday.

Billy Hill reporting.

Exactly 150 years ago the philosopher and MP

John Stuart Mill presented the first mass petition to Parliament calling

for votes for women.

Decades of campaigning by the suffragists and years

of direct action by the suffragettes followed - before some women

gained the vote, in 1918.

On the anniversary of the pdtition Parliament's unveiled the lhght

sculpture New Dawn.

Gabrielle O'Neill has compiled this report.

When I was doing my research I kept on coming across the emblem which is

New Dawn and that was on all the suffrage

banners and postcards and

insignia and I wanted to include that in the work.

But also if anyone has been to Westminster they will

know it is a very dark, cold building, so as a light installation

artist I wanted to somehow hnfuse the building with a really strong,

warm, sunlight energy.

Lights operate on a cycle linked to the tides of

the Thames.

The shapes are inspired by the scrolls in the Parli`mentary

archives and the many petithons on women's suffrage sent to

Westminster.

When I was doing that research I found there was 16,500

petitions, over three million signatures, over 70 years, so I just

felt as though I needed to honour all those

people that have made the

effort to come here and protest or petition.

New Dawn is above the entrance to St Stephen's Hall,

scene of many suffragette protests.

This was a mass movement ovdr many years involving many differdnt

organisations and millions of people who signed petitions.

And what we wanted was something that captured

the mass nature of the camp`ign and at the same time was solething

that was relevant in the 21st-century and indeed hopdfully

centuries going forward.

The issue of women and the vote was raised in

a Commons debate on Wednesd`y.

On representation we may have parity of

votes but surely its clear we don't have parity of voice.

A public debate which too often excludes

women or shouts them down.

So this is the point.

There may have been huge progress in the last few decades on

the number of women MPs, on women in the Cabinet, and all sorts of

measures, but there is still so much to do because not everyone hs able

to realise their true value.

We refer to the number of women

who are in Parliament at the moment but there

are still more men in

Parliament than have ever bden women in Parliament and we need to point

that out on the record.

She is absolutely right.

We need to keep up that fight.

We need to talk about the issues that matter to us.

We nned to encourage the wolen around us to

get politically engaged, and above all we must

encourage them to go out and

vote, and that is the right that those early suffragettes fotght for

and we must all use it.

Parliament has always been very heavily

dominated by men and this work of art is our way of celebr`ting

the suffrage movement, and I like to think moving

towards a new chapter of more

equal representation in Parliament.

Caroline Nokes.

And that's it for now.

Another fascinating committde session in prospect

in the next few days - the billionaire retailer

Sir Philip Green gives his side of the story in the collapsd

of British Home Stores.

Should be worth watching.

Do join me for the next Week in Parliament.

Until then, from me, Keith Macdougall, goodbye.