09/06/2011 This Week


09/06/2011

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Tonight, the Grand Prix season reaches the This Week studio.

:00:23.:00:29.

Cameron slums on the brakes for yet more U-turns, is the coalition on

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:00:39.:00:42.

the skids? The Daily Mirror's Kevin Maguire tries to keep up. As one

:00:42.:00:46.

new university plans to drive off in a new direction, with fees of

:00:46.:00:50.

�18,000 a year, writer and education campaigner Toby Young

:00:50.:00:57.

gets behind the wheel. Private, Ivy League style colleges could be the

:00:57.:01:04.

solution to the funding crisis in higher education. Is life getting

:01:04.:01:11.

too racy for young girls? The wife of the Speaker, Sally Bercow,

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always the chequered flag. cannot just look to the States, to

:01:17.:01:27.
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tackle this problem, parents need Evening all. Welcome to This Week,

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bringing up the political rear, as ever. Say what you like about this

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government, they know how to exceed expectations. Just when you think

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they could not come up with anything crazier than putting Ken

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Clarke in charge of prison policy, they surpassed themselves. Their

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latest brainwave, NHS reorganisation. What are my

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blathering on about? Well, I will tell you, the mind bothering idea

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put forward by Theresa May as part of her so-called prevent anti-

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terrorism strategy. Apparently, the NHS is not delivering what it was

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set up to do. Apparently, doctors and nurses are not just there to

:02:31.:02:37.

heal the sick, no, they're critical partners, her words, in the fight

:02:37.:02:44.

against terror. They can help protect people from radicalisation.

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It is no longer enough for your doctor to ask, where does it hurt?

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In future, they will be asking, who do you want to hurt? Speaking of

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people the state should be keeping an eye on, I'm joined tonight by

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two men who both deserve to see the inside of the Tower of London. I

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speak of course of Michael Portillo and Alastair Campbell. Good evening,

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gentlemen. Michael, your moment of the week... Some soldiers, who have

:03:19.:03:22.

been at war in Afghanistan, have been carrying video cameras on

:03:22.:03:28.

their helmets and making films of the wars. On BBC Three a couple of

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nights ago, they showed some footage from 2007, and there was an

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incredibly moving passage in which a platoon is deployed against the

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Taliban, in a firefight, and one of them gets shot, as it turns out,

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fatally, and they try to rescue him. The immediacy of the war really

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came home to me. The confusion of battle. Their enthusiasm for battle,

:03:57.:04:03.

the chaos of trying to deal with a casualty. Their affection for the

:04:04.:04:08.

boy who fell and died. Everything is there. It was on BBC Three,

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forgive me, why was it will be bought three? -- why was it on BBC

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Three? It increased my understanding of war tenfold.

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agree, it was an extraordinary piece of film. Your moment? There

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have been a lot this week. To pick up one, they think it was the

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exchange yesterday between David Cameron and Tom Watson on phone

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hacking. May be inadvertently, David Cameron has taken it into a

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whole new arena, where the activities of other newspapers are

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now very much could be part of the story. And since that exchange, I

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subsequently discovered that I have seen a lot of invoices relating to

:04:51.:05:01.
:05:01.:05:03.

myself in this regard. Being paid by my old newspaper, the Mirror, to

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dig up whatever it is. We are talking about quite big sums of

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money. When you see the volume of money that was going out from the

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newspapers to this private investigator, who was involved in

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the murder trial, as you know, but I thought it was interesting, it

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was a very important moment, and people say that PMQs does not

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matter, but I thought Tom Watson got Cameron to say things...

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Cameron probably wants this to go away, I would have thought. But I

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think he has a slightly opened the floodgates on it. There was another

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moment which happened tonight, the news of these amazing memos which

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the Telegraph is publishing tomorrow, from Mr Brown and Ed

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Balls, showing that within days of the terrorist attack in London, on

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the Underground, that Gordon Brown and his allies, including Ed Balls

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and Mr Miliband, had begun a brutal campaign to get rid of Tony Blair

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as Prime Minister, what you make of that? It is true, I walked into the

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building tonight, and you have thrown these things at me. I was

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involved, I came back, having left in 2003, and helped to put Tony and

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Gordon together. We did win! There was also involved a little bit

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beyond that in trying to keep them working together. I'm not totally

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surprised by seeing this, because I think Gordon did feel fairly soon

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into that third term that it was about time Tony started signalling

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when he might leave. I think the most interesting thing for me, the

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one I think I have seen before, is Tony basically same to Gordon, I

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will help you or I can, but I have just been elected for a third term,

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and I have got a reform agenda, and I want or support. But Mr Brown's

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reply to that, he scribbles in the margins, and you used to scold

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people like me for making too much of this... Not by 2005, I didn't.

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He described the words of Mr Blair as a shallow, inconsistent and

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muddled. Which he was not, he was not any of those things, he pretty

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much knew most of the time what he was up to. Mr Balls, who was

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involved in most of this, and we have got handwritten memos from him,

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has previously insisted people like me that he has never been involved

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in attempts to undermine colleagues, including Mr Blair - is that now

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sustainable position? If you look at some of them, they look fairly

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ordinary, it is a political operation. I have always said about

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Gordon, the ambition to become Prime Minister, seeing nothing

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:08:09.:08:10.

wrong with that. We were joking about Michael... I don't remember.

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You do. Mr Brown orders Mr Balls to take a bluetongue approach to

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cleanse the Labour Party of Mr Blair's influence. Well, if that is

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accurate, then it was not a terribly wise thing to say. I'm not

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pretending the relationship between the two of the was hunky-dory, it

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wasn't. However, the reason why I went back to help Gordon in 2010

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was because together, they did achieve issue demand. At times the

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relationship was really bad, this was clearly one of those times.

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didn't we get this in your diaries? You got quite a bit, actually.

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sense that it. A I did, I was straightforward about that. Thanks

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for the plug, there is another one coming out on July 7th. There is

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quite a lot of it. But even despite all of that, when it was bad, we

:09:09.:09:19.
:09:19.:09:19.

still got a helluva lot then. hated and despised Blair, it is

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clear. At times, he had such a negative view, he was so clear

:09:25.:09:31.

about his own ambition to be Prime Minister that sometimes, I think he

:09:31.:09:40.

underestimated just how talented Tony was, and how strong he was.

:09:40.:09:44.

The haunting question is, particularly in the latter years,

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how much more could Tony have done if he had not been blocked? Let's

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leave that hanging in the air, because we need to move on. Most

:09:57.:10:07.
:10:07.:10:11.

universities are hotbeds of dissent. If there is one thing arts students

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cannot handle, apart from basic mental arithmetic, it is big

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business. So, the news this week of plans to open a private university

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funded by investors rather than the state was greeted with fury from

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students and arts academics. A handful of protesters went to throw

:10:29.:10:39.
:10:39.:10:40.

smoke bombs at the cuddly Nafti academic masterminding the project.

:10:40.:10:45.

Writer and campaigner Toby Young thinks private education is worth

:10:45.:10:55.
:10:55.:11:05.

fighting for. Here is his call to arms. AC Grayling Bundled plans to

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set up a private university of humanities, but he was told, he had

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no right to speak by one group. Public education is the last

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redoubt of the Progressive Left. They will stop at nothing to defend

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the state's position as a monopoly provider. They were particularly

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incensed by the professor, because he used to be one of them. But now,

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they will not rest until they have bullied him into denouncing his

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radical ideas. Is that the Archbishop of Canterbury? In

:11:41.:11:51.
:11:51.:11:56.

The professor is proposing to charge students �18,000 a year,

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enabling his opponents to brand the New college of the humanities

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socially exclusive. But the high fees will allow the college to

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subsidise poorer students, in some cases of in them 100% bursaries, a

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system which works well in America, giving children from low-income

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families access to higher education. As a founder of the west London

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free school, I have to put up with daily attacks from the

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stormtroopers of the hard left. They do not care about helping the

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poor gain access to good schools or universities. If you're setting

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yourself up as an independent provider, free of state control,

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then you are the enemy and you must be stopped. Welcome to the fight,

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Professor Grayling. That was Toby Young playing

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soldiers at the national Army museum in central London. He joins

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us now. Welcome back to the programme. First of all, Alastair,

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you were a celebrity teacher in Jamie's Dream School, so there --

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:13:15.:13:17.

to this must be right up your Not really. Teaching is really,

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really, really lard. I saw that. was voted the best by the kids, but

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I thought it is not the job for amateurs. I think that this new

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university it's got a slightly odd feel to it to me. The guys who have

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made themselves very well known in their own field and they come along

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and I think the other thing - and they say they can give this great

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course and all this money and so on. It takes a long, long time to

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establish a reputation as an educational establishment. The

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second thing, it is slightly taking us off the main point, which is the

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80% cuts in teaching grants. It's probably what is making them think

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there's this market opportunity opening for them now. I think we

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are talking about the 80% cuts about a potential disaster for

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universities that we should and they should be fighting to protect

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and support. Do you think, Michael, it's part of a movement which some

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would like to see, to a more morn- style higher education system,

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where in addition to the state- funded universities, which there

:14:24.:14:28.

are many in America and nearly all in this country, there are private-

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higher education institutions? Absolutely. I think Alistair is

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taking it too literally. The new future is that places like Oxford

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and Cambridge I think have to go private. They have to put

:14:41.:14:44.

themselves beyond the reach of the state. Why is that? It's because

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the state will suffocate them. It's because the state won't like them

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to charge enough money and then the state will have all sorts of social

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engineering agendas, which will compromise their academic

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excellence and it is really important nationally, because it is

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important to us that we should have the outstanding educational

:15:07.:15:09.

institutions in country. Unfortunately, not the outstanding

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ones, because the American ones are better, but we need to get back on

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to the track. They have potential to be independent and private. They

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have the potential to be massively endowed, which is the pod elon

:15:23.:15:26.

which the American universities are funded. They try to do now, but

:15:26.:15:31.

they don't appear to be able to do it. If you have that, cue provide

:15:31.:15:36.

lots of bursaries so you overcome that social problem. You should

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have a needs blinds policy. You should not know the background of

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the students on deciding whether to let them in. I agree. When you have

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a $20 billion endowment then you have do that. I understand. Toby,

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this isn't going to be anything like this, but a Swiss finishing

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school in the middle of London for rich kids that couldn't get into

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Oxford or Cambridge? I don't think that's particularly fair. They have

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an outstanding rota of professors. How many do you think Neil Ferguson

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will give in between teaching at Harvard and New York and lecturing

:16:15.:16:21.

to Goldman Sachs? Bearing in mind 220,000 university applicants

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aren't going to get places this year. If you allow private

:16:26.:16:29.

providers to enter the sector you'll increase the number of

:16:29.:16:31.

places and give education to the people who need it. Students should

:16:31.:16:36.

be backing this. Only if you can afford �18,000 a year. It's going

:16:36.:16:41.

to be, as you say, means blind and about 25% of the places will be

:16:41.:16:49.

subsidised so not everyone who goes will have to afford that. 75% are

:16:49.:16:52.

paying �54,000 for an education when most students are up in arms

:16:52.:16:58.

that they might pay �9,000. If you increase the number of places by

:16:58.:17:01.

breaking the monopoly of the state then you'll increase supply and the

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prices will go down, which is why students should be backing this.

:17:06.:17:14.

you think an eng-lit degree is really worth �54,000, plus living

:17:14.:17:20.

expenses? I could see becoming an engineer might be worth �54,000.

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There will be a market. If people want to buy, why not? Can there be

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any harm in it, Alistair? Well, maybe there's not any harm, but

:17:29.:17:33.

going back to the earlier point, I think I just worry that we are

:17:33.:17:40.

slightly looking at this kind of group abdemic celebs who are --

:17:40.:17:47.

academic celebs who are off going around, but I worry - You have to

:17:47.:17:51.

put in three hours in the Dream School. Slightly more than that. I

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was there and you weren't. The point is I think - I'm amazed that

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the 80% cut has not had more debate and coverage, because that is what

:18:02.:18:04.

will devastate the future of universities and I think these guys

:18:04.:18:08.

should be thinking about that, because I don't buy the line that

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if you go down the route that Toby is talking about that you'll get

:18:11.:18:16.

the sort of increased access for poorer kids into the universities.

:18:16.:18:20.

I think we are going in the opposite directions. I don't think

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people should be terrified about free choice. This is a market thing.

:18:23.:18:28.

That is the point. Some someone wants to spent 54,000. How many

:18:28.:18:32.

people can. If somebody decides that, that is sending a signal and

:18:32.:18:36.

telling you that some people believe this institution is

:18:36.:18:40.

offering something that even Oxford and Cambridge at half the price are

:18:40.:18:43.

not offering. I think they'll struggle. Maybe they will. If they

:18:43.:18:46.

go out and pay that money then there will be a really important

:18:46.:18:50.

message being sent by that. reason they can command the fees is

:18:50.:18:54.

because it's a sellers' market, because there are far fewer

:18:54.:18:58.

university places than there are people who want an education. The

:18:58.:19:02.

way to drive prices down and make it more affordable is to open up

:19:02.:19:07.

the market and allow different providers to enter. One of the

:19:07.:19:10.

consequences of Labour education policies that you spend a lot of

:19:10.:19:13.

time attacking is there were more people going to universities and

:19:13.:19:17.

there will be fewer people going because of scrapping the EMAs and

:19:17.:19:21.

because of the rising fees and because of the huge cuts in

:19:21.:19:27.

teaching grants. That, I think, is far more important whether AC

:19:27.:19:31.

Grayling has half-baked ideas. of the fundamental problems we face

:19:31.:19:37.

in this country is getting bright kids from poor backgrounds into our

:19:37.:19:42.

elite universities. It's proving to be really a struggle. How does this

:19:42.:19:51.

help? Well, if there are bursaries it doesn't make any -- make things

:19:51.:19:56.

any worse. If 25% will apply on a means blind basis then it's not

:19:56.:20:00.

worse, but here we come back to what was achieved in the Labour

:20:00.:20:05.

years and many years before that, why is it now that so few kids from

:20:05.:20:11.

state schools find it possible to get in on their merits to Oxford

:20:11.:20:14.

and Cambridge? I think it's because in looking at the secondary

:20:14.:20:21.

education system, we felt that selection was a bad thing, so -

:20:21.:20:24.

why? Because the secondary modern schools weren't very good, so

:20:24.:20:31.

instead of trying reform them, we destroyed the grammar schools.

:20:31.:20:39.

know you don't agree with that. will work like an ivy Leith college.

:20:39.:20:43.

They charge people who can afford slightly over the odds and then

:20:43.:20:46.

they can enable poorer children who wouldn't otherwise have access to

:20:46.:20:51.

that quality of higher education to go. I'm not worried that there will

:20:51.:21:01.
:21:01.:21:04.

be a lot of rich kids from China and the ol gashing sons going there.

:21:04.:21:07.

The Government's own social mobility report says that state

:21:08.:21:11.

school kids who get to universities are getting better degrees than

:21:11.:21:15.

those out of the private schools and the problem with Oxbridge is

:21:15.:21:19.

they haven't tackled what they need to do to get more state school kids

:21:19.:21:23.

going into the universities. There are a handful that dominate the

:21:23.:21:27.

state school sector. Toby - it includes a lot of the remaining

:21:27.:21:32.

grammar schools. You have a free school in west London. When does it

:21:32.:21:36.

open? September. How much money have you got from the Government?

:21:36.:21:40.

Exactly the same amount that any ordinary school would have. We get

:21:40.:21:48.

something like between five to six,000 per pupil. Who has bought

:21:48.:21:51.

the site? The department for education. Let me just say, I don't

:21:51.:21:56.

oppose everything that Labour did. I'm wholly in favour of their city

:21:56.:22:02.

academies programme, something I wish your wife was too. You wish

:22:02.:22:06.

Gordon hadn't blocked it as much too. Absolutely. Toby, keep us up-

:22:06.:22:11.

to-date with the free school. There is no mystery on what keeps us up

:22:11.:22:19.

late, super-strong coffee and Blue Nun and saup-weak bladder control.

:22:19.:22:24.

-- soup-weak bladder. Sally Bercow will join us to talk about the

:22:24.:22:29.

sexualisation of society. If you want to witness deluded moral

:22:29.:22:33.

outrage there's nowhere better than the viewers' comments page on the

:22:33.:22:42.

interweb. Or you can express your disgust with fewer swear words by

:22:42.:22:46.

following us on twitter. Painfully steal, that is the verdict of the

:22:46.:22:49.

Archbishop of Canterbury today. We thought he was talking about this

:22:49.:22:53.

programme, but no, it turns out he meant David Cameron's big society.

:22:53.:22:58.

He could have gone on to say cheap, soft and low on protein, but then

:22:58.:23:06.

he really would have been talking about this programme, or modern

:23:06.:23:09.

mass-produced bread, which Britain invented 50 years ago this week we

:23:09.:23:15.

should hang our heads in shame. We asked Kevin Maguire to remember a

:23:15.:23:17.

simpler time, when bread and politics were made the traditional

:23:17.:23:27.
:23:27.:23:39.

Last on the round would be old ma Cameron's place. It was like taking

:23:39.:23:47.

bread to the top of the world. Mrs Cameron. I've got your organic sour

:23:47.:23:53.

dough and raspberry bloomer. World were a simpler place once, but

:23:53.:23:58.

these days everything's going up in price. Economists say elderly folk

:23:58.:24:02.

have to choose between eating and heating. This week's been about one

:24:02.:24:12.
:24:12.:24:19.

thing, bread. Well, dough to you and me. They don't make them like

:24:19.:24:25.

they used to, you know. Time were a Lib Dem were a Lib Dem. And now

:24:25.:24:31.

he's a delivery boy for Mr Osborne, the butcher. The case for changing

:24:31.:24:37.

strike law is not a compelling one. However, should the position change

:24:37.:24:40.

and should strikes impose serious damage to the economic and social

:24:40.:24:47.

fabric, the pressure on us to act will ratchet up. That's something

:24:47.:24:57.
:24:57.:25:01.

which both you and I will Beth both collectively want to avoid. -- will

:25:01.:25:04.

both collectively want to avoid. talked tough before, but he didn't

:25:04.:25:10.

rise to the occasion. This debate about strike laws is nothing but a

:25:10.:25:14.

distraction. There is no justification for tightening up

:25:14.:25:20.

even further already extremely restrictive laws. The Tories are

:25:20.:25:24.

really needing the Lib Dems with them, being pum eld and pounded and

:25:25.:25:28.

David Cameron is getting on with the U-turns. We'll not cut spending

:25:28.:25:33.

on the NHS, but increase it. If you are worried that we'll sell off the

:25:33.:25:37.

NHS or create something American- style private system, we will not

:25:37.:25:47.
:25:47.:25:48.

do that. Cameron faced the wrath of God, oh, how much the prime baker

:25:48.:25:53.

must wish the Church of England was still the Tory Party at prayer. The

:25:53.:25:55.

Archbishop of Canterbury said the poor need more than a few crumbs

:25:55.:26:05.
:26:05.:26:25.

Labour says the Government's plans are half-baked and not just on the

:26:25.:26:31.

NHS. Ken Clarke's plans for half sentencing were meant to safe a --

:26:31.:26:37.

save a load of dough. Ed Miliband should have had David Cameron on

:26:37.:26:41.

toast at Prime Minister's questions. He knows he's in a total mess on

:26:41.:26:46.

the policy. Just like on all of the other crime policies and I now want

:26:46.:26:55.

to ask about another area where he's in a complete mess.

:26:55.:26:59.

Miliband failed to singe Cameron. I'm not surprised he wants to move

:26:59.:27:05.

on, because on the first subject he was found guilty. We all know, on

:27:05.:27:11.

the Irish of discounts it was the last government that introduced a

:27:11.:27:16.

33%, a third discount on sentences, so there is, as I say, more than a

:27:16.:27:23.

whiff of jumping on a bandwagon. This Government has more twists and

:27:23.:27:27.

turns than my bread, but Labour is still finding it hard to slice

:27:27.:27:37.
:27:37.:27:42.

Out Pop Tony Blair, flogging his book to make more bread.

:27:42.:27:45.

largest private donor to him is Alastair Campbell, you're not

:27:45.:27:50.

putting your money where your mouth is yet... Well, I'm certainly very

:27:50.:27:54.

happy to support them in any way I can. I didn't realise Alastair had

:27:54.:28:04.
:28:04.:28:04.

achieved that great accolade. were a grand ride back again, time

:28:04.:28:14.
:28:14.:28:20.

for a mother of pearl grey. -- a mug of Earl Grey. This Week, As

:28:20.:28:30.
:28:30.:28:32.

Good For You are now as it has always been. We thank the baker for

:28:32.:28:39.

letting us film there. We are joined by a Lib Dem commentator. Mr

:28:39.:28:49.

Cameron, his U-turn, or concessions, on health reforms - right or wrong?

:28:49.:28:55.

Wrongish. Right fish in the right direction but he needs to go

:28:55.:29:03.

further and drop the whole bill. Right. U-turn on sentencing policy?

:29:03.:29:13.
:29:13.:29:17.

Wrongish. Wrong. Wrongish. How far are these U-turns down to Mr Clegg,

:29:17.:29:22.

should he be claiming some credit for them? I think he is claiming

:29:22.:29:27.

credit for the NHS one. Probably not the sentencing one. As always,

:29:27.:29:33.

we learn more detail, as time goes on, and we learn that the

:29:33.:29:37.

coalitions within the coalition are the unexpected. You will find that

:29:37.:29:40.

there will be Conservative Cabinet ministers who disagree with their

:29:40.:29:46.

fellow Conservative ministers, so I think sometimes it is a slightly

:29:46.:29:50.

smoke and mirrors about this kind of, we're going to go into the

:29:50.:29:55.

Cabinet and fight for a particular issue. I spoke to somebody very

:29:56.:29:58.

senior in the Conservatives who said they thought the Andrew

:29:58.:30:03.

Lansley stuff was pretty crazy. So I think a lot of Tories had spotted

:30:03.:30:09.

that. I think Mr Cameron would like to be shot of a lot of it as well

:30:09.:30:14.

now, I don't think he understood what the implications were. But as

:30:14.:30:18.

he backtracked enough to satisfy the Liberal Democrats? I do not

:30:18.:30:21.

entirely know the answer to that, because we're waiting for the

:30:21.:30:27.

detail. But there if -- but if there is a sufficient pull back

:30:27.:30:30.

from a single body which are driving towards competition, then

:30:30.:30:35.

obviously that will alleviate a lot of the problems that were raised in

:30:35.:30:39.

the Liberal Democrat amendments to motions at the spring conference.

:30:39.:30:45.

Mr Cameron seems quite adept at U- turns. We in the media, no matter

:30:45.:30:50.

who is in power, we make a big deal about U-turns, probably too much -

:30:50.:30:53.

from your experience inside government, do they Harmer

:30:53.:30:58.

government? No, I think John Major was damaged through the whole sense

:30:59.:31:03.

of dithering and taking different positions. I think ultimately what

:31:03.:31:09.

matters is the policy position you get to. Where I think David Cameron

:31:09.:31:11.

is in trouble on this one, there was a discussion on Newsnight the

:31:12.:31:17.

other night, with Norman Lamb, and the Tory MP who's in the news for

:31:17.:31:23.

other things tonight, a bit of a right winger, I think, and they

:31:23.:31:27.

were both same, following David Cameron's speech, they're both

:31:27.:31:32.

really happy. Now that's totally impossible, this Liberal Democrat

:31:32.:31:39.

and the right-wing Tory. Opposite working good guys from within the

:31:40.:31:43.

health sector, saying they were totally confused by what the policy

:31:43.:31:48.

was. I think Cameron, if he is up for the whole you turn business, he

:31:48.:31:52.

could do worse than just drop the whole bill. A lot of what he says

:31:52.:31:58.

he wants to do, he could do by just using existing reforms. Alan

:31:58.:32:01.

Milburn has said you do not really need a Bill to do what he wants to

:32:01.:32:06.

do. Is there a danger that looking beyond this, Mr Cameron gives the

:32:06.:32:10.

impression that he's just not prepared to stand and fight on some

:32:10.:32:16.

things? Absolutely, there is such a danger. He desperately needs

:32:16.:32:18.

competition in the national Health Service, partly because that's what

:32:18.:32:22.

he believes in, partly because the national Health Service has to make

:32:22.:32:29.

enormous savings in order to live within its budget. The budget is

:32:29.:32:33.

rising in real terms, but that is nothing compared to the extra

:32:33.:32:37.

incidence of diseases which we can treat, and the longevity of the

:32:37.:32:43.

population and so on. So, we need extra competition. I think it was

:32:43.:32:46.

part of the radicalism of the coalition, which I thought was

:32:46.:32:50.

extremely attractive, that in areas like criminal justice, it was

:32:50.:32:55.

prepared to look at new solutions, different ways of trying to reduce

:32:55.:32:59.

the prison population, not just building new prisons, and part of

:32:59.:33:04.

that is, in certain cases, if somebody says you the trouble of

:33:04.:33:08.

taking them through the criminal justice system, they should be

:33:08.:33:12.

offered a discount on their sentence, it is just common sense.

:33:12.:33:17.

I want to move on to Ed Miliband. There is a perception growing at

:33:17.:33:21.

Prime Minister's Questions that there is a regular open goal

:33:21.:33:26.

staring him in the face, and the ball gets kicked over the bar.

:33:26.:33:30.

think he is just going through one of those phases, where there is a

:33:30.:33:35.

media mood of negativity around him. I did not see PMQs yesterday, but I

:33:35.:33:38.

think Ed Miliband is one of the few people I have noticed who can get

:33:39.:33:44.

under the skin of David Cameron, and who I think has had some decent

:33:44.:33:47.

kits at Prime Minister's Questions. They think he's right not to be

:33:47.:33:52.

going too fast on the policy review process. He is still in the process

:33:52.:33:59.

of getting known by the public. The problem we have got now, I used to

:33:59.:34:08.

feel terribly sorry for Olly, when she was a press officer for the Lib

:34:08.:34:12.

Dems, but we have to accept now, we are the third most interesting

:34:12.:34:19.

party. Nick Clegg's tactics, is it really just to stay behind the

:34:19.:34:23.

scenes at the moment I have been writing about this for some time,

:34:23.:34:28.

and I think it is borne out by what you have written, and a lot of the

:34:28.:34:32.

stuff I have read from Labour, when they were in government, which is

:34:32.:34:36.

this obsession with making speeches and announcements and trying to

:34:36.:34:45.

turn the media image of somebody. It is not achievable. Therefore, a

:34:45.:34:49.

long-term media strategy has to be backed up by kneeling down the

:34:49.:34:53.

details of the policy, and the policy having some kind of

:34:53.:34:57.

coherence. I think Nick Clegg will damage himself even more by trying

:34:57.:35:02.

to give this sense that the policy debate is now about he can

:35:02.:35:05.

influence every policy. He is now the Deputy Prime Minister of the

:35:06.:35:10.

government, his only hope I think in rebuilding any sense of

:35:10.:35:14.

credibility is to be the guy who just takes the hits, says, I'm

:35:14.:35:19.

doing what is white for the country, and I will tough it out. To a

:35:19.:35:23.

certain extent, he has been doing that. Does it matter these days

:35:23.:35:29.

what the Archbishop of Canterbury thinks about politics? The column

:35:29.:35:32.

he wrote in the New Statesman could have been written by a political

:35:32.:35:38.

commentator. Does it matter? happens every time you have Tories

:35:38.:35:42.

in government now. This thing about the Church of England being the

:35:42.:35:46.

Tory Party at prayer is so far out of date. I'm amazed by the

:35:47.:35:52.

political naivety. I draw exactly the opposite lesson from the

:35:52.:35:55.

Archbishop of Canterbury. In a modern democracy, you will never

:35:55.:35:59.

get people telling you what to do in government, what needs to be

:35:59.:36:03.

done. The miracle is that in democracies, you still get people

:36:03.:36:08.

who, when they get into power, to what is the right thing to do. They

:36:08.:36:12.

will not tell you in advance. The Archbishop Canterbury saying this

:36:12.:36:16.

is terrible because they did not tell us in advance, no, that's not

:36:16.:36:20.

terrible. The wonderful thing is that they're actually doing the

:36:20.:36:27.

right policy now. We were talking about this story earlier, have the

:36:27.:36:32.

police spoken to you? I have been speaking to the police about the

:36:32.:36:36.

Glenn Mulcaire stuff, but I have not decided what to do about that.

:36:36.:36:39.

But I think this Jonathan Rhys stuff is going to go into a

:36:40.:36:43.

different area. We're not just talking about phone hacking, we're

:36:43.:36:49.

talking about bank details, building societies, the further

:36:49.:36:53.

they get into the details of a D George's mortgage, if that is what

:36:53.:36:59.

it was, this is beginning to unravel now. -- Eddie George. We

:36:59.:37:05.

have had the first police investigation, which was a joke.

:37:05.:37:08.

Then we have had the, it is just a Rogue reporter, but that has gone

:37:08.:37:15.

as well. But this shows newspapers systematically hiring people to

:37:15.:37:24.

do... We need to leave it there. There's nothing we like more than a

:37:24.:37:28.

good old fashioned moral panic. Whether it's too much violence or

:37:28.:37:33.

too much sex. In the case of Michael Portillo, too much wearing

:37:33.:37:37.

of his violently sexy green satin shirt. We believe the public should

:37:37.:37:41.

be protected from all such degenerate influences, even at this

:37:41.:37:47.

time of night. But are the latest tabloid headlines about

:37:47.:37:52.

inappropriate influences just scare stories? We decided to put the

:37:52.:38:02.
:38:02.:38:03.

sexualisation of society under the House of society become too

:38:03.:38:06.

sexualised, especially where children are concerned? David

:38:06.:38:12.

Cameron thinks so. The Government has decided it is time for action.

:38:12.:38:19.

Parents told me they did not want further regulation. What they

:38:19.:38:25.

wanted was the barriers which stopped them being good parents to

:38:25.:38:30.

be taken away. But can children be prevented from growing up too

:38:30.:38:37.

quickly? It has not stopped the opening of a new Playboy Club in

:38:37.:38:46.

London. That's despite the protests. Meanwhile, women have been walking

:38:46.:38:50.

the streets protesting about their right not to be judged by the

:38:50.:38:57.

clothes they wear. Is society really going to hell in a handcart,

:38:57.:39:05.

or are we just jumping on a typical tabloid bandwagon? That picture

:39:05.:39:09.

speaks volumes for our relationship, I'm the one doing all the punning.

:39:09.:39:17.

Anyway, we joined now by Sally Bercow. His David Cameron right to

:39:17.:39:21.

be worried about this? I think he is. It is an issue for

:39:21.:39:25.

all parents, children are becoming more sexualised, but the question

:39:25.:39:28.

is really whether the Government should be doing something about it,

:39:28.:39:32.

or whether really, parents should be stepping in. I think parents

:39:32.:39:36.

have to take some responsibility. A padded bikini top does not by

:39:36.:39:42.

itself, a parent buys it. When you see kids wearing T-shirts saying

:39:42.:39:47.

things like, future WAG, it makes you wonder whether parents allow

:39:47.:39:52.

that. Absolutely, it can be pester power. I know what is like, you

:39:53.:39:57.

come in from a long day, the kids say, I want this, I want that, and

:39:57.:40:04.

you agree, but you have to draw a line in the sand. Do you think it

:40:04.:40:07.

comes from children who want to copy their parents, when they're

:40:07.:40:17.
:40:17.:40:17.

young? There's a beauty salon which has opened at the weekend which is

:40:17.:40:24.

doing exactly that for 16-month-old babies. Painting toenails, doing

:40:24.:40:34.
:40:34.:40:38.

sprayed towns and so on. You almost think that should be illegal.

:40:38.:40:42.

Absolutely, it has been opened at the weekend. But I think the key

:40:42.:40:48.

thing is that parents need to be firmer with their children.

:40:48.:40:53.

Youngsters today have access, when I was a kid, it was TV, but today,

:40:53.:40:58.

it is laptops, I phones, i-Pads, there are pin their rooms all the

:40:58.:41:05.

time. It is an incredible array of influence. -- they are up in their

:41:05.:41:15.
:41:15.:41:16.

rooms. A lot of it is a good thing, enriching the life experience of a

:41:16.:41:19.

child. But parents do have to take more of an interest in their

:41:19.:41:26.

children. It is not just up to the government to babysit them.

:41:26.:41:30.

government do much about this? not have a problem with Cameron

:41:30.:41:34.

saying, there is a problem. What I cannot workout is what the

:41:34.:41:38.

government actually does about it. I spoke to my daughter tonight, to

:41:38.:41:43.

see what she thought, she's 17 now. She says, there is no doubt there

:41:43.:41:48.

is more of this stuff, but she thinks a lot of kids have worked

:41:48.:41:55.

out how to sail through it. My take is that you cannot do this without

:41:55.:41:59.

changing society. Most of us are attracted by advertisements which

:41:59.:42:04.

promote sexuality, scantily clad people, good-looking people, and

:42:04.:42:09.

unless we are prepared to change society, it is just not going to

:42:10.:42:19.
:42:20.:42:24.

happen. Should we be careful that we are not just part of the old

:42:24.:42:29.

thing where every generation thinks the same thing? I do not think we

:42:29.:42:32.

should wrap children up in cotton wool at all. That's why sexual

:42:32.:42:41.

education is important in school. And you have got two young kids.

:42:41.:42:49.

Three. Are you conscious that this is a problem for them? Absolutely.

:42:49.:42:54.

Thanks for being with us. That's your lot for tonight. Michael and I

:42:54.:43:00.

are off to cry ourselves to sleep. Why? I hear you ask. Like everyone

:43:00.:43:04.

else we meet, we failed miserably to get any tickets for the Olympics.

:43:04.:43:10.

So, no synchronised swimming for me. No Greco-Roman wrestling for

:43:10.:43:14.

Michael. You know how much Michael loves his Greco-Roman wrestling. He

:43:14.:43:20.

does. Shambles, Seb Coe, you should hang your head in shame. But we

:43:20.:43:23.

were heartened to see the Speaker of the House of Commons back in the

:43:23.:43:27.

news, he gallantly came to the defence of his wife this week,

:43:27.:43:33.

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