17/11/2011 This Week

Tonight, This Week invites you into the Political Dragons' Den. As

Italy creates a government of non- politicians and Europe stares into

the financial abyss, TV historyman, Dan Snow, enters the den to ask if

democracy is in crisis. As the crisis deepens, maybe people power

is just getting in the way. More economic bad news at home, with the

worst unemployment figures for 17 years and lower growth projections.

The New Statesman's entrepreneurial political editor, Medhi Hasan,

pitches his best idea. The economy is going down the toilet. David

Cameron should be cracking down on the bankers, not dressing up and

dining with them. Super-model and super business woman, Elle

Macpherson, will be talking the pants off us with a political

underwear quiz. Being in the industry I search far and wide to

find questions that have to do with underwear. And, an authentic dragon,

Hilary Devey, comes into This Week's den, to tells us why women

don't need help getting to the top. I've made it on to This Week

through sheer determination, hard work and tonnes of tenacity and any

female can do the same. Evening all. Welcome to This Week. And if you

think there's something slightly different about us tonight, dear

viewer, fear not - with the Occupy Wall Street activists being swept

aside just as easily as a UK Border Force Chief from the Manhattan

streets and the St Paul's protesters soon to be evicted from

their pop-up wigwams and biodegradable yurts, those

dastardly BBC bureaucrats have finally decided to lance the

festering boil and turf the This Week team out of our regular

Westminster studio. Yes, I hear you cry, is there really nothing sacred

anymore?! Apparently there've been complaints from the stiffs over on

Newsnight about too much late-night drinking, too much rowdy bongo

playing and too many items on the economic crisis in the eurozone -

featuring Nancy Dell'olio. She is going to join Super Mario's Cabinet

of technocrats, I hear! Like we care! So, whilst MPs take a less-

than-well-earned half-term break, we've set up camp over here at BBC

Arabic for one week only. Just while the fumigation of our old

stomping ground takes place. A sort of Arab spring clean. Maybe they'll

finally get those stains out that Diane left? Speaking of those who

know how to cause a stink, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two

of Westminster's most pungent aromas. The smellling salts and

smelly cat of late-night political chat - I speak, of course, of

Michael Portillo, and Lord John Reid. Welcome. Your moment,

Michael? Well, I have a Spanish passport and I've voted in the

Spanish election. Just in case you think it started recently, the

collapse in Spain, the way you vote there is the way we vote in

European elections. You are given six or seven bits of paper, which

are the lists of candidates for each party. You have no choice. You

have no idea who they are. You played no part in selecting them.

The only thing you are allowed to do is fold up the paper and put it

into the box. That is the limit of your role in the democratic process,

because those people have been chosen by party chiefs. Between now

and the next election, they won't give a stuff what I think or anyone

else thinks. All they'll think about is what the party chief

thinks of them. Because they choose the list? And this is what passes

for democracy. Who did you vote for? Popula. The one who is going

to win? That's pretty democratic by Italian standards. What was your

moment? One event and I'm allowed two moments. Philip Gold's funeral.

He was the guy who did the focus groups, so we got the opinion polls

that gave us the quantity for oragainst, but the groups gave you

the flavour. Regarding strong, too weak, weird and so on. The two

moments were first of all, when Tony Blair spoke. When Philip came

to the Cabinet and gave us his presentation there was a curious

alignment between what the focus groups believed and what Philip

believed. I had always assumed that I was the only one in the Cabinet

who thought he was making half of this up. I thought Tony believed it,

but he was inspired, but he revealed he had noticed that too

and the second moment wads your erstwhile guest, Alastair Campbell,

who who in a letter he read out, added at the end of it that one of

the quotes he got was the best quote he had heard in all his years

in politics and I assumed it would be Clinton or Blair or Thatcher,

but it was the Queen. It was that quote that grief is the price we

pay for love, so hearing Campbell not a well-known monarchist,

putting that at the top, was a moment to be savoured. I thought

you meant when the Queen asked all the economists, why didn't you see

all this meltdown coming?. Come a bit closer. I don't want these two

to hear me. Closer. That's quite close enough. I wanted to say that

we could be seeing people lose just a teeny weany bit of faith with

politicians' ability to sort out events like the world financial

crisis. It seems like just maybe they don't have a clue what to do.

Should we follow the example set by sin nor montity in Italy? Democracy,

in 2012, has is finally become a bit dated? Is Europe undergoing an

Arab Spring in reverse? A sort of European winter for democracy. Here

is the story from Dan show. -- Dan Snow. It's often said that laws are

like sausages, sometimes best not to see how they're made, but in

this room in the Houses of Parliament those sausages are on

display. These are all the Acts passed over the past few hundred

years. These are the product of our democracy. It's seen in Britain and

throughout the world as the Holy Grail. The only system that really

confers legitimacyment it's so important that in the last few

years alone, hundreds of thousands of people have died fighting in its

name. Now, with the worst recession since the 1930's causing global

unrest, people are starting to ask whether we need strong, decisive

leadership unhindered by electoral politics. China and Russia are

grinning with glee that they can made the bold decisions necessary

to bet them out of trouble without the democratic checks. It seems

like the first time since the Cold War that democracy is under assault.

Just in the last few weeks, democratically elected Italy in --

elected leaders in Greece and Italy have been replaced. The new Italian

Prime Minister has failed to put any professional politicians in his

Cabinet at all. Will the rest of the eurozone countries follow suit?

Should we be alarmed at the march of the technocrats? Well, no.

Critically both new Prime Ministers have had to win majorities in their

respective parliaments. Both have won confidence votes. These are not

dictatorships. These are slight tweaking of the contusional

practice. Even here in Britain, we have done similar thing in the past.

We have tweaked democracy slightly in the face of grave crises. David

Lloyd George and Churchill brought in businessmen to run key

Government ministries during the world wars. The last three Prime

Ministers have all appointed unelected ministers through the

back door of House of Lords. Always remember that every country that

has turned its back on democracy has lived to regret it. When a

Government passes one of these, a law, it does so with one eye on

what it thinks it should do and one eye with what it thinks the public

will let it get away with. If a dictator was in Greece there would

be a revolution and nobody would then benefit. The real lesson here

is that sometimes we are faced by events that no government, no

matter how many acts it passes, is able to parole. In those situations,

some people lose their faith. They start to listen to begieling

extreme alternatives. But the lesson -- beguiling, extreme

alternatives, but the lesson from history is clear, they don't work.

Dan Snow joining us now. Welcome back to the programme. Michael, you

heard what Dan had to say. The technocrats are in charge in Athens

and in Rome. There seems a distinct lack of leadership at the top of

the eurozone. Is democracy under assault? Yes, I think it is and I

think it has been for some time, because the EU has consistently

until the last few days, have a number of democracies, but the

institution in the union have not been democratic and that has been

the so-called deficit which has existed for a long time. Also, for

a long time, European elites have existed, that have a concept of

what is good for the rest of us. They've taken us on this path of

ever-closer European Union and from time to time there have been

referendums. Whenever a referendum has delivered a result that the

elite didn't like the people were sent back to vote again. One way or

another I think there have been a lot of assaults on democracy. I

also fear that a lot of this problem is caused by a malfuction,

which is that politicians find it very difficult to postpone people's

gratification, so they always want to give people what they want today,

which is why you end up spending too much and borrowing too much.

The euro of course is an example of this. The politicians who devise

the it couldn't postpone their own gratification. They couldn't wait

until countries were actually ready and qualified to enter the euro. No,

no, no. They had to get 17 in from the beginning. They took in places

like Italy and Greece. Completely unsuited. John, could imagine --

could you imagine, or what would happen if it were announced that

the Cabinet in Britain would be composed entirely of unelected

members? Well, I think the result from British people might be three

cheers instantly, but I think let's not exaggerate the move. When we

have hit crises like this, there ha been a mile taken away. I assume

you are joking there. What would the British reaction be if we ended

up with a Government who we hadn't People would be furious and rightly

so. Michael was right because there is a huge democratic deficit in

Europe. There is nothing more frustrating I can tell you as a

Minister - he will have done it - having to deal with an unelected

commission. You can shift this ship of European state as it were a

little bit to the left, or to the right and slow it up. You can

hardly move the direction. You have a Parliament which is largely

elected by the same system that you were making fun of earlier which is

why very few people know their own MPs. I think this is a natural

consequence in European history. All right, let me bring Dan in. If

there is a democratic deficit, it's got bigger, it's got bigger in

Greece and in Italy. You talked about a "tweaking of democracy" but

it is a suspension of democracy? The point about democracy - we live

in representative democracies. That is why Europe is a mess. The

Parliament is a non-entity. In Greece, Italy and Britain it is

acceptable within the Convention to say as long as Parliament agrees,

clearly to suspend Parliament - although it is worth remembering

during the Second World War there was no general election for ten

years... Hitler was elected by proportional representation!

Absolutely. Which he burnt down. The point is, in Italy, he's had to

go to Parliament and they so far have had confidence in him. Also,

the last Labour Government, we forget when Gordon Brown went on

holiday, who was our stand-in Prime Minister? Lord Mandelson. That is

hardly the same as having a whole Cabinet of technocrats! He didn't

do anything. He made a lot of noise. Because he could whip - in the

British constitution everything comes down to the ability to

command a majority in the House of Commons. It would be very rare, but

it would not be constitutionally impossible as long as the Commons

allowed that Government... We know that is not going to happen.

thing that is worrying about this is if in Italy it is seriously

believed that a Cabinet made up of technocrats with nobody elected has

a better chance of pushing through the measures that are needed, that

tells you that the belief in democracy by the people has really

reached a state of rottenness. I mean, the reason it couldn't happen

in Britain, I think, is that to me - I hope I don't sound as if I'm

speaking for the trade unions of politicians - if there is a really

difficult issue here, people won't like it so we must get someone who

is not elected and that seems to me bizarre. You two are biased. The

point - politicians that you elect to beat up the legislature and

people who are in executive positions. That is why we have a

lack of talented people who run big ministries, people who run the

NHS... The American Cabinet is not exactly full of talent? Hank

Poulson presided over the meltdown? They are beaten up... The premise

behind the American constitution is to constitute a government that

doesn't work because the power is dispersed. You separate... Let's

not get a lecture on the American constitution. Let me bring you back

to this... To bring in talent... Please, let me come back to the

current situation. Perhaps the technocrats are useful to the

politicians because they will hide behind them and say you do all the

tough stuff and then when that is done, we will come back in? No, it

is because they bring in a particular talent. British

governments have constantly brought in people with talent but the

balance has always been not only the ability to remove... I agree

with Andrew's proposition. What is happening here is indeed they have

been brought in to do unpopular things. More and more politicians

have been elected, they say, "These decisions are too difficult for me

to take, I will appoint a quango..." Technocrats... Issues

that are really important - you were Health Secretary - which drugs

will be available to which people. No politician wants to take that

decision any more. It's given over to... I am not sure politicians

should be taking that decision. not? I want to decide what drugs I

take. I want them to drag the people who are making the decisions

through the mud and make sure... you are elected to Parliament, you

really should take decisions and then you can say, "I took this

decision and I am willing to defend it." You are right. You have to say

to our elected representatives, "This is why I have followed this

course of action." The Italian Parliament has disbanded themselves.

There is a Cabinet, they will have to sell it to Parliament. If they

don't win a confidence vote, they get kicked out. This studio is not

a democracy. We have run out of time. The idea... No, we have run

out... What bit of that did you not understand? Thank you very much,

Dan. Now come fly with us because we've had a quick whip round and

come up with the �20,000 needed to keep us on the air past midnight!

And to provide some pretty decent in-flight entertainment with Hilary

Devey from Dragons' Den talking about the politics of positive

discrimination. And for those who are more than happy to display

their prejudices, you can follow us on the interweb, on Twitter - oh

yes - and don't forget The Facebook! Now politics can get a

bit rough and ready, bad-tempered even some might say. Those

politicians really should learn to mind their Ps and Qs more. We sent

our own rough diamond, Mehdi Hasan, off to get some tips on etiquette.

Finishing school? It nearly finished him off. This is his

round-up of the week. # You either got

# A flour is not a flour -- a flower is not a flower

David Cameron knows how to tie a bow tie but he could work on his

manners. This week one of his backbenchers is said to have

described him as an "arse" - harsh words perhaps. We agreed in a

historic agreement that if the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have a

little girl, that girl will be our Queen. At the end of this meeting I

turn to the Australian Prime Minister and said thank you very

much Julia for allowing us to have this meeting in Australia and she

said, "Not a bit, David! This is good news for Sheilas everywhere."

Doesn't the Prime Minister know it is rude to gloat when one's

neighbours are in trouble. Mr Cameron described himself as a

eurosceptic. Yes, that's right. A Prime Minister educated at Eton and

Oxford, a former member of the Bullingdon Club, he said it's the

EU that is out of touch. You could not make it up. We have a vital

point. We should look scepticly at grand plans and Utopian visions.

But our cousins are not in a mood to listen to us. One of Angela

Merkel's MPs claimed that now Europe is now speaking German and

Angela Merkel has claimed Europe is facing its darkest hour since World

War Two. If you are a German leader accused of taking over Europe, best

not to mention the war. Again. Breathe in, breathe out. In. Out.

Good. Nick Clegg, a graduate of Westminster School and Cambridge

University showed us how important it is to set your guest at ease by

communicating with them in their own lan wadge. I am delighted --

own language. I am delighted to welcome the Dutch Prime Minister.

HE SPEAKS DUTCH This week Lord Leveson launched his inquiry into

mediaethics. My own view is simple: Never listen into someone else's

phone call. Any etiquette guide would tell you that now is the time

to apologise. Hello? That phone hacking was wrong. It was shameful.

It should never have happened. News International apologises for it

unreservedly. Are we going to get anything other than apologys from

this inquiry? I doubt it. The Home Secretary said this week that she

had nothing to apologise for. Her problems with -- were with the

below stairs staff. This week Brodie Clark testified. I am no

rogue officer. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am very

conscious that over 40 years I have built up a reputation and over two

days that reputation has been destroyed and I believe that that

has been largely from the contributions made by the Home

Secretary. Mr Clark -- Mr Clark's My new friend says we are all in

this together. But are we really? Bankers are walking away with

massive city bonuses while on Wednesday the latest unemployment

figures showed 2.6 million people out of work with youth unemployment

crossing the million mark for the first time. Labour governments

always run out of money, but Tory governments run out of jobs.

think these figures are deeply concerning. The highest figure for

young people's unemployment since records began. The Government can't

keep blaming the rest of the world for problems which are made in

Britain, our recovery choked off a year ago. We need action now to get

jobs and our economy moving. last word should go to Baroness

Trumpington. The survivors of World War Two started to look pretty old

as well. As the Baroness reminded me... Claiming to be one of the

oldest survivors in this House. # Got or you haven't got

# Style. # That was fun! Back to life in the

99%! No product placement on the BBC?!

So, Mr Happy, another week, you enjoyed it? It is of course getting

worse. It is. Britain is still paying a very low rate of interest

on its borrowings. Other than that, it's getting bad. I am sure there

is much more to come. I don't think we will come through this without a

fall in living standards, without having to make changes to the

welfare state, to the National Health Service. People are only

just beginning to realise this isn't just a euro crisis. It is a

moment in history when power is passing from the West to the East.

We will have to change the way we live. How powerless do you think it

is? The British economy? eurozone situation and...

eurozone was a misconceived idea from the start. People who thought

they could impose their will through sheer politics on 17

different nations, as Michael said, of different competitive levels, it

was always going to blow up like this. Is it going to blow snup

think that three things will happen. I think there will be default,

which is happening already. I think that there is a likelihood that

there will be a fragmentation of one or two countries from it. The

only way it will be preserved is by drawing more power of taxation to

the centre and setting up yet more of the apparatus of European

governments and I hope that our Government is contemplating what

they will do at that stage for the other ones who are not in the

eurozone. If John is right - you couldn't rule out a breaking of the

eurozone into a league of the north and a collection at the bottom. The

immediate consequences - they would be horrendous. It would probably

throw Europe into a depression? Well, we are in an horrendous

situation. The issue... Horrendous? Yes. Which is more and which is

less horrendous? Countries leaving or countries not leaving? You have

to sit down and plot which of these will be more expensive and more

difficult. What I thought interesting was David Cameron made

the eurosceptic speech. They are on opposite paths. One of the

consequences will be the most enormous clash between the eurozone

and Britain. Recognising that cuerblg moment and the need to

rebalance for those not in the eurozone, thank God Labour finally

spoke out. Douglas Alexander made an interesting speech which dealt

with this issue. There is a growing recognition it may not be one

sudden moment of crisis, but we are in a process that will bring about

some critical change in the nature You get the feeling this decade is

going to be a watershed decade. It's true. We have a former Home

Secretary here, so I want to move on to this. Theresa May. She seems

to be in a stronger place this week than she was a week ago? I think

this will change by the day. I know her and I also know Brodie Clark,

so I'm not going to go - He was in situ when you were there? He did.

Incidentally, after I had described the Home Office immigration

department as not fit for purpose, which I can reveal was not my words,

it was the words of a senior Civil Servant who had commissioned inside

to study the processes and structures. This was a Home Office

Civil Servant who used these words? Yes, it was. He basically said that

the immigration department was deficient if structures, systems,

training, all the things I said and he used that phrase. I wasn't

saying this against my leading Civil Servant. People like that

Civil Servant and head of immigration and Brodie Clark helped

us to reform it. Now, there will be an inquiry. I don't judge that. But

the key question is this - let's get rid of the myth that there's

100% security at borders. There isn't and there can't be. We'll get

rit of the myth that sometimes is perpetrated in the newspapers that

everybody who comes in should be subject to the same scrutiny. Quite

frankly a bus load of veterans going to Dunkirk and going back, or

Saga holidays shouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny as a flight-

load of people from the Yemen. about someone in a bright green

shirt? They would immediately stand out and intelligence-led inquiries

would have you body search them. You are seriously dealing with risk

management and the real question at the bot many -- bottom of this,

where there exceptional health and safety standards were they becoming

routinely used because of lack of resources or management deficiency.

That is the real question. Is it your impression that the Home

Office, even though it's been cut in half, because we have the

Justice Ministry now. Is it still not fit for purpose? No, I think

it's hugely improved over where it was. Full credit to people who work

there. Although there was opposition to me splitting the Home

Office, nobody wants to put it back together. Although there was

opposition from others to me centralising the office of security

and counter-terrorism, nobody wants to get rid of that, so I think -

and all the indicators show that they are second-top on

departmentmental processes now. However, they have a problem of

amazing magnitude with immigration, because the world has changed so

radically now. 250 million people a year don't just travel, they get up

and move somewhere else. More than the whole of Brazil. The old ways

of doing things are no longer fit for the world in which we live in.

That is what they are trying to modernise. Finally, Baroness

Trumpington, do you think politics were more refreshinging if people

were as honest as her? She is a wonderful woman. There was on

occasion some years ago where a point was made in the House of

Lords and she uttered an expletive and I can't repeat it, but it's the

surname of the Shadow Chancellor and when it was recorded in the

Hansard in the House of Lords it appeared as nonsense. They had

removed that five-letter word. Shadow Chancellor is now called Mr

Nonsense. We have to move on. We are very much in favour of quotas

here on this programme. Every week there must be one mention of Blue

Nun. Two references to Italian bond yield spikes. We'll be anding in

Spanish ones too and a minimum of three shots of Michael looking smug

about his long-held predictions of a eurozone meltdown. Let's face it,

the phrase positive discem nation hardly does justice to the motley

collection of underqualified Westminster wonders who have graced

our sofa over the years. With the senior judge calling for more

action to promote women into top legal jobs this week, we decided it

was time to put the glass ceiling in our spotlight. Few women

havaries tonne the top quit like the grocer's daughter from

Lincolnshire, who ruled a man's world with a lady-like fist of iron.

Gentlemen, shall we join the ladies? The Home Secretary has

certainly broken through the political glass ceiling. She is one

of the few women in the Cabinet, does it make it more difficult to

sack her? Master of the Rolls thinks there is a problem in the

judiciary, calling for women to be favoured for new appointments, and

he appears to have the backing of the Justice Secretary. The Prime

Minister has criticised the business community for not doing

more to promote women to the top jobs. I want it see more women in

Britain's boardrooms and that would have a thoroughly good influence.

If the glass ceiling still exists what is the best way of making some

cracks? Perhaps Hilary Devey has the answer and wants to make us an

offer. It's none a product for me. I'm sorry, I'm out. She joins us

here. Welcome. Thank you. Do you think there should be more women in

the boardroom? Yes, I do. But I also think there's plenty of

opportunities for women to fight their way into the boardroom and I

think this is a multi-faceted debate, because it's whether or not

females have to make sacrifices that men don't and it's whether

they wish to make those sacrifices that will take testimony into the

boardroom. We hear this phrase a lot. It's been around for several

decades, the glass ceiling. Do you think it exists? Absolutely not.

You don't? No, I don't. Rubbish. Tell why. A manicured fist will go

quite as easily through a glass ceiling as a builder's fist,

rubbish. Do you think there's a difference if you take boderooms,

which are one thing and they private in private, behind closed

doors and they have a commercial purpose, but the judiciary, our

politicians, wouldn't we be better if they were more representative of

the society? Yes, of course we would, because if you take all the

skills that a woman practises in the home, in every day of her

lifestyle, which are generally even if she is at home with children,

listening skills, time management, budgetary controls and so on,

patience, you take all those skills, then the perfect ingredients for

any boardroom or for any senior management or directorial role.

you think there's ever a case for positive discrimination? Now there

isn't, but I think the problem that you've got is it's all down to

genetics and the fact is that women have children, women want children,

and therefore they want to take time from work to have those

children. Do you think positive discrimination works, Michael?

think in very particular circumstances. For instance, in

political parties, where the candidates for election are not

chosen by a scientific for management process, or chosen by

people who are trained. In the Conservative Party, women were

entitled to believe they had no chance of being selected or almost

no chance and therefore I favoured positive action to send the message

that they stood a chance. In boardrooms, where management

processes apply I would be much more nervous. One of the things

that worries me is they've been so overwhelmed by political

correctness, having various people who represent various groups, they

they cease to be effective as boards. You see the chaos in

banking, because it seems to me that the boards of banks weren't

qualified to make judgments. you support, John, the famous

experiment with positive discrimination in Labour Party,

which was called the Blair's Babes and it changed the face of the

party in the Commons. Did it work? I was exep kel about it, but I

think it did work. -- sceptical about it, but it did work. My view

is possibly a little old-fashioned as regard the public sector

politics. The most underrepresented groups, if you are looking for

representation, is men, women, people from the ethnic minorities

and so on, who could from a working-class background and it is

no longer fashionable to speak about that. You just need to look

at the Cabinet. It's not a criticism. Some of us made a

documentary about it. If you are going to have some form of public

discrimination in order to get a more representative group of people,

you cannot do it without looking at people who come from backgrounds

that are less we will-off than others. That is my only view. That

is men and women and people from ennick minorities. Hilary, in a

sense you are the productive of positive discrimination and you

were chosen for the Den because you are female? I don't know. Possibly.

They have to have a woman. They have to have a woman? You are now

it. I'm now it? Equally, I come from a very, very male-dominated

industry and I have been championing women for skills in

logistics and trying to bring women into the industry, because there is

no reason a female can't do the job equally as good as a male, down to

every facet of that job. We saw that - Yet, I've not succeeded.

saw the clip of the Iron Lady. It doesn't look, when you look at both

the major parties at the moment, Liberal Democrats have very few

women too, so we'll include them, three, that there is another party

female leader waiting in the wings. One would hope so. It doesn't look

like it, does it? Who knows what tomorrow brings? That is true. Mrs

Thatcher said there would never be a woman in her lifetime. It didn't

look as if there would be in 1974, when she was Education Secretary.

It's hard to tell. All right. OK. Don't go away. We are going to have

a quiz. Now, with winterval almost upon us- I do like a pagan festival

- minds naturally turn to festive delights and Christmas stockings.

Or, in Michael's case, Christmas stockings, Pippa Pants and those

strange suspender belt tights that Rihanna's always wearing. So what

better time for our very own Elle Macpherson inquiry and a political

underwear quiz? Elle, take it away. Being in the industry I searched

far and wide to find questions that had to do with underwear. Question

- which British member of Parliament posted a picture of

himself wearing just underpants, on an on-line dating website? Chris

Bryant. Chris Bryant.El, answer? The answer is Labour MP and

Shadow immigration minister, Chris Bryant. This is a two-part question.

Which British politician was continually marked by cartoonist

Steve Bell for tucking his shirt into his underpants? Who was

responsible for spreading the rumour in the first place? John

Major. Alastair Campbell. Let's find out. The answer is, do you

know it? It is John Major and Alastair Campbell. You got that

right. Final question. This is a good one because I happen to know

the person in the question. Which politician's wife once model

underwear for the Next catalogue. Cos -- Nicolas Sarkozy's wife.

Let's go back to Elle. It is President Sarkozy's wife in the

spring and summer catalogue 1989. It's back to you, Andrew. There you

go. I thought she was kind on you. I'm told, just before we go, you

are a 40-a -day smoker? No, but not that much. What do you think about

the car idea? Ridiculous. Infringement on human rights. Where

is the democracy going? It's good to say what you think? Absolutely.

Thank you very much. Good luck on the Den too. Pleasure. That's your

lot for tonight folks, but not for us. We're piling back to Michael's

for a Blue Nun party seven and a toast sandwich, known around

Westminster as a Theresa May's career sandwich. But we leave you

with the winnners of Best Political Double Act at last night's

Spectator Awards shindig. Nighty night, don't let the Lovecats bite.

If I had to put money on who might get the act, I think I might have

said Chris Huhne and Vicky Price. I'm also tempted to say actually