10/11/2011 This Week

Tonight on This Week, forget Italia 90, we present Italia 2011 As the

Italian team stare into the abyss - will their German neighbours come

to their rescue in extra time? As the Italian teams stare into the

abyss, will their German neighbours come to their rescue in extra time?

The Guardian's Zoe Williams gives us some expert analysis. While we

were laughing about their bunga bunga, they were running out of

wonga wonga. Italy's crisis alone is enough to make you have a duvet

day. Home Secretary Teresa May is in

trouble after letting too many foreigners play in the UK. Will she

get shown a red card? Journalist and radio presenter, Nick Ferarri,

thinks Cameron and his team are failing on immigration. Cameron,

you're the manager. Sort this out, or you'll lose the dressing room -

and most of the country with it! And will the post-match analysis on

Michael Jackson's life ever end? Best friend and teammate David Gest

looks at the importance of legacy. Who doesn't want to make a mark on

history? Why else would I be here on This Week? Sit back. It's time

for the action to start. Evenin', all. Welcome to This Week,

the show that satisfies only the most superficial needs of the great

viewing public. Yes. As the Berlusconi government is consigned

to the dustbin of history, with some of its biggest supporters

reduced to walking the streets of Rome's Red Light districts. And the

first act of the invading Germanic tribes of the North is to banish

Italy's fun-loving bunga bunga government with an austere banka

banka regime more to their liking - a form of regime change they've

already pioneered in Athens - yes with all this history in the making.

The bond yield that finally did for him. Speaking of films, the Commons

Media Committee screened James Murdoch's first Hollywood

blockbuster today. It's called "I don't know what I or anybody else

did last summer. Or the one before that. Or the one before that". Did

you ask to see the crucial email showing that hacking at the News of

the Screws went wider than a rogue reporter? What's an email? Did you

ask to see the advice of leading counsel which concluded hacking was

rife? We employed leading counsel?! Are you as humbled as your dad? I

have a dad? Is that how I got this job? Speaking of buck-passing

administrators who couldn't organise a wine tasting in a Blue

Nun vineyard, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by the Theresa May,

and the Theresa May, of late night political chat. I speak, of course,

of the shirtwatch twins, Michael Portillo and Alan AJ Johnson. You

have lived up to the part. Your shirt is my moment. What's yours?

Yesterday, Yvette Cooper, I think she's the Labour spokesperson, was

asked on Radio Four about the fact that people could enter Dublin and

not be stopped because hey wouldn't be in the British ban list, and

once they were there, they could cross into the United Kingdom

without any problem at all or they could take the train to Belfast, be

in the UK, then they could cross into the United Kingdom without any

test whatsoever, and she was at a loss for words. It wasn't just

Yvette Cooper who was lost for words. The system was at a loss for

words. Of course. Anybody who thinks he's a terrorist and thinks

he's on the ban list will go to Dublin, then go to Belfast or

directly to London or any other UK city. A really interesting point -

he's really been thinking, which I am always suspicious of. What's

your moment? Mine is the tragic death of Philip guld, a political

moment because of the incredible way that he prepared for his death,

analysed his final weeks, prepared his family and friends for what was

going to happen, almost as if he is preparing for a political occasion.

He was a remarkable man. He had a great zest for politics, didn't he?

He loved to talk about it. He was fantastic. I went to the House of

Commons library today to see if they had any unfinished copies of

The Revolution. They have five, and they're all out being read by

people from all parties. By the Tories. Theresa May was quaking in

her kitten heels this week. At one stage it looked as if the curse of

the Home Office was about to claim the scalp of another Home Secretary.

That threat is over for now, but she's had a bruising week claiming

it was her civil servants what done it when it came to an unauthorising

relaxing of our border controls over the summer. The row has

brought the issue of immigration bubbling back up the political

agenda, and we like nothing better here than to turn up the gas, so is

we have asked LBC's talk show host Nick Ferarri for his take of the

week. Good morning. It's 7.00am on

Thursday, the 10th of November. You're listening to Breakfast with

Nick Ferarri on LPC 93.4FM. # Keep on knocking

# But you can't come in # Keep on knocking

# But you can't come in # Come back tomorrow night and

# Try it again # Now, I have had so many calls from

my listeners down the months who are angry and worried about the

level of migration into this country, and poll after poll shows

that people are concerned about the impact on society and the fact that

no politician seems prepared to tackle this issue, and this week I

am frankly amazed by an admission from Home Secretary Theresa May

that because of a decision approved by the Government to relax some

border controls, she has no idea - that is no idea - how many people

came into this country over four months of the summer without any

proper checks, and this from a Government that came into power

promising to fix our broken immigration system, shore up the

borders and cut net migration to the tens of thousands. Just what

the hell are they playing at? # Woo! #

Now, the politicians hold up -- holed up in Westminster have no

firsthand experience of the harsh realities that have been seen with

this mass increase of immigration in recent years. Communities have

been swept aside. Native culture has been destroyed, and thousands

of hardworking Britons have lost their jobs to immigrants. I hate

the fact that anyone who raises this issue is accused of being a

racist. It's not racist to want to have a debate. In 20 years, the

population of this small island could be 70 million - 70 million -

and we won't be able to cope. That's why in just seven days,

100,000 people have signed a petition calling on the Government

to get a grip, and that would start with the debate in the House of

Commons. Our public services are already at breaking point, and cuts

are being made across the board, and not one politician has been

able to explain to me how we'll even begin to cope if the numbers

of people flooding into this country continue as they have for

the last 20 years. David Cameron promised he'd sort out the mess

Labour got us in, but where are the policies to back up the promises?

My listeners are not convinced he's crack down at all, and neither are

the thousands of people queuing at Britain's door waiting to get in.

Nick Ferarri from his LBC studio. Welcome - welcome back, I should

say. Thank you. Let me go straight to you, Michael, first. Nick has a

point. A lot of people would probably agree with him. The

Cameron Government is failing to sort out the mess left behind by

Labour on this. I am not as excited or excitable as Nick is about this

issue. I frankly don't care about it as much as he does. In terms of

the political impat, yes, I am convinced he's right, that the

perception of the public is that the Conservatives promised to do

something about it, and they're not doing very much about it, and this

shambles over letting people in - and the way Theresa May has chosen

to say, I have no idea who came in - clearly very damaging. For quite

a lot of voters it's a big, big issue. When the Conservatives in

general, David Cameron, in particular, promised at the last

election to cut net immigration from hundreds of thousands a year

to tens of thousands, did you really believe them, or was it not

just political opportunism, clear at the time? I think unfortunately

some of my listeners did believe, and now they have been let in. If

you look it a, we have had promises out of the British Bill of Human

Rights, promises of cutting down on immigration, promises of a vote. I

have come up with an idea for my show. If the Government does

anything you voted for, ring this number and we'll celebrate. I think

it will just sit there. Gathering cobwebs. It will just sit there.

No-one will ever ring it. I take onboard what Michael says, of

course, but every poll you look about, immigration is in the top

three, sometimes higher, of issues that concern the viewers. Is it

very real out there in regards to places in schools, hospitals,

houses, in some places water. It's not fair to those who have come

here. Some people have trekked halfway across the world for a

better life. It's almost as if we have brought in in on false

pretences. In this E-petition, 100,000 signed in less than seven

days - people think the Westminster bubble, the elite, which you two on

that sofa are representatives - you just don't get it. Nick has been

saying this for a long time, and he's right to say we need to debate

the issue, and he's right in saying politicians were frightened of

debating the issue. When you say the mess left by the last

Government - you mean by me - I was Home Secretary. The points-based

system... Which you opposed in the 2005 election? We introduced it,

and did successfully in the end, because net migration was coming

down. But when I was Home Secretary I was conscious of politicians

being frightened to debate this. I had debates in different cities. We

had debates with Chris grailing, Chris Huhne at the time. We do

debate did issue. Michael says he doesn't feel as excitable about

this. I think if the public knew where we were on this and that

asylum seekers had peaked and was coming down - net migration had

peaked, was coming down - the problem with David Cameron is he

said he'd return it to the tens of thousands - he has no possibility

of doing that because he can only control a few aspects of net

migration. He can't control how many people are leaving the country.

Say it's coming down, but when you came to power in '97, net migration

was 50,000. It's still now over 250,000. It's a lot more than it

was, and it's never going to get back to 50,000. What's your

prescription given that so much immigration now comes from the

European Union, which unless we're to leave, that is part of the deal,

what's the policy? That's the elephant in the room - or the

people in the country that's so difficult to control. If I'd just

come back, though - the defining moment, would you not agree, of the

last election campaign was when Gordon Brown came face to face with

that woman in Bradford... Rochdale. My apologies, and people do care.

What was the thing that undid Brown in that conversation? "You're

letting all of these people into this country?" She demonstrated

what real people are thinking. You're right we can't do anything.

We're in Europe. People will flock in. Is that such a bad thing if a

lot of European immigrants want to come to this country? I mean, the

French have brought their financial expertise. The Poles have brought

their building, construction, and much other - the Catholic Church is

populated again. If you're fortunate enough to be the one

that's doing the employing or having an extension or a garage

built or something like that fantastic. If you are a carpenter

or builder, a British one, and you're live in in a city like

London or Leeds, you try telling them it's a good idea. They have

taken their jobs. The other side of it is they charge less. You say

they're taking their job, but a lot of the jobs they take - you see

them in restaurants and hotels across the country. A couple of

days ago, everybody who was cleaning my room was a migrant.

They're hardworking. They're polite. They have a work ethic. Lot of

employers have decided a big chunk of the indigenous population

doesn't have these skills. You'll go to an American-style cafe to get

a Danish pastry served by a Polish girl. I quite like the sound of

that. I'll give you the number. I accept that. There are other

industries where people are prepare odd to work. The service is a fair

point. They're just not able to now. Did you ever relax border controls

when you were Home Secretary? didn't. At that time we were at the

second highest threat level, severe, as it was when Theresa May

introduced this experiment in the summer. It's gone down now to

substantial. We had a guy who put loads of Semtex in his underwear,

thankfully wasn't coming to the UK, but America. It would be

unthinkable we didn't check - those biometric checks are crucial. They

You say it was unthinkable, but the Home Office has been briefing that

it did happen under Labour. They were talking about a directive of

2008-2009, which was there just before I came in, and it was

clearly about when the police say there is a public order issue in

arrival halls because there are so many people coming in, a plane has

not taken off, or whatever. Where there are public-order issues, the

police recommend that you do something about them, then you

respond to it. In one summer at Heathrow, you let anybody in

without any checks. That was 2004. If it happened, it cuts your moral

ground from attacking her. In 1987, when Michael was in the Cabinet,

anyone could come here. Which is why, as David Blunkett pointed out

yesterday, when the numbers went up it was because we started to count

the people that had been here for years illegally. Not many did come

them. They managed to keep it and 50,000 a year. If you talk to the

UN, they say that this international migration, people

coming from Sri Lanka, Kosovo, Zimbabwe, has been phenomenal over

the last 20 years and every country has been affected. Globalisation.

Which is why Cameron can never go back to the 80s. Which is why his

tens of thousands is impossible to deliver. Michael, the Tories are in

a strange place because on the one hand they are saying that it went

further than they meant. On the other hand, they are claiming the

pilot was a success. If it was a success, they are claiming they

picked up more illegal immigrants doing it this way, why would you

not continue if it was a success? As I understand it, the case of the

Government is that something happened that went beyond the pilot

which was authorised by Theresa May. She says something was going on

than she did not authorise. Apparently the head of the service

takes the same view because he suspended Brodie Clark, presumably

not for obeying ministerial instructions. We will come back to

that later. It seems to me, before we finish off with Nick Ferrari,

that when you look at the e- petition which came on Europe,

immigration, there are lot of the public out there who want a more

Tory Tory party, not your Tory modernising agenda. Yes, that is

true. You are going back to what I was saying about how the Tories

should get elected when they were in opposition? I still think for

that it was crucial to take the position on the middle ground.

did not win. They were the biggest party. Do you feel, you, to

programmes like this and others and you will do this and say something

must be done, although you are short on policy prescription, but

actually it is not going to change. We are heading for 70 million.

think we are. Thank God we live in a tolerant country and the British

are very tolerant people. If you look at the riots in August,

nothing to do with race. In many other countries there would have

been a race element. People say, what can be done, and I do not know.

We are part of Europe. For God's sake, just have a debate and get it

started. Thank you for being with us. Now, packing in more calories

than the new double-decker pepperoni pizza from Iceland - yum,

double-decker pepperoni pizza from Iceland - prepare yourself for a

late night snack of truly This Week proportions. We'll be joined by the

King of Pop's prince of pals, David Gest, who'll be talking about the

importance of legacy. And if you really want to clog our arteries,

don't forget you can give us a heart attack by posting your

comments on our interweb page, following us on Chatter, or

stalking us on The Facebook. Well, what a week it's been. Dozy

journalists like us are having to work ever so hard to stay on top of

everything that's been going on. It's quite exhausting. Just when

you've learnt how to say Philippos Petsalnikos, thinking that the

Speaker of the Greek parliament would be the new Prime Minister,

you find out it's going to be Lucas Papademos. Will it ever end? Can

the news get any worse? Have we been here before? Zoe Williams, for

one, feels like it's groundhog day every day, with our round up of the

# Put your little hand in mine. # Isn't it funny to wake up every

morning with the news exactly the same as yesterday, only worse? The

eurozone is in crisis, markets in meltdown, prime ministers

everywhere are resigning and the sight of coalitions pretending to

agree with one another is becoming a bit scary. It is Groundhog Day

for journalists. This week it was Italian Prime Minister Silvio

Berlusconi's time to finally give up the fight. What three corruption

cases and an under-age prostitute failed to achieve, the markets

managed with a click of their fingers. He stood down on Tuesday

but it came too late for the bond markets, already in turmoil. The

problem with Italy is that it is too big to bail, but too big to

fail. You need to have in place the biggest possible firewall. That is

what the EFSF is all about, and eurozone leaders urgently need to

put flesh on the bones, to put figures on the size of that

firewall to stop this contagion going any further. For George

Osborne, it certainly feels he is stuck in a time loop.

REPORTER: In yet another meeting. This one likely to make any

difference? This is the 9th meeting in eight weeks of finance ministers

both in Europe and around the world. At times the progress is

Theresa May, Our Home Secretary, brought low buyer crisis over

immigration. I am sure I have been here before. Brodie Clark, a

lifelong civil servant in a cracking bad mood, is unlikely to

go quietly. Already it seems certain he will bring a case of

constructive dismissal against the Home Secretary, and he has some big

beasts on his side. The treatment of Brodie Clark, who y'know,

respect and admire, has been reprehensible. -- who I know. He

will go to court, win his case, and this Home Secretary will have

nowhere to hide. David Cameron put up what you might call a spirited

defence in the face of lugubrious questioning from Ed Miliband.

month ago, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a speech on border

controls called, reclaiming our borders. But, Mr Speaker, while he

was boasting about reclaiming our borders, his Home Secretary was

busy relaxing our borders. Doesn't the Prime Minister think he should

at least have known? The pilot that the Home Secretary introduced meant

more arrests, more firearms seized, more forged documents found. That

is the truth of it. I am determined we have tough border controls, and

finally we have a Home Office and Immigration Minister that actually

want to cut immigration. These students get everywhere. The

bathroom's ready. Step out, mate. Yes, the students are revolting

again, but this time the demonstrations were peaceful and

some would say a little bit tedious. They can't win, the students. When

they do not riot, we call them boring, and when they do, we put

them in prison. 4000 police swamped the demonstrators to the extent

that it sometimes looked as though the police were demonstrating and

the students were just keeping them company.

This is beginning to hack me off. More delicious hacking revelations.

Derek Webb, private investigator, former policeman, revealed to

Newsnight the 100 people he had been paid to follow by the News of

the World for over eight years, among them Prince William, Harry

Potter starred Daniel Radcliffe. Daniel Radcliffe's parents. And one

Zoe Williams. Imagine my delight. Imagine the compensation. Further

investigation proved it was the repeated phone calls limeade to a

Premiership footballer in 2004. God damn it! I am the wrong Zoe

Williams. James Murdoch had his own Groundhog Day. In front of the

select committee again, he still cannot remember anything, did not

see anything, and he still denies everything. In the evidence they

gave to you in 2011, but respect to my knowledge, I thought it was

inconsistent and not right. think Mr Crone misled us?

follows that I do. De you think Mr Myler must lead us as well? I think

their testimony was misleading and I dispute it. You must be the first

Mafia boss in history who did not know he was running a criminal

enterprise. Mr Watson, please. I think that is inappropriate.

Zoe Williams. She does not get out of bed for less than 10,000, and we

could not afford that! Michael, another week of the eurozone crisis,

but something did change this week. It is not just Groundhog Day. Italy

took centre-stage, and the future of the euro and the eurozone will

be determined, I suggest, by the response to Italy's predicament of.

Absolutely. For a long time, people have been speculating that Italy

might come into the frame. It has probably come in faster than most

anticipated. The world was obsessed with Greece 10 days ago. Greece

still has problems, but it is scarcely mentioned now because the

Italian problem is so much larger. And this time there really is not

an answer. In the case of Greece, you simply had to put together a

package of money big enough to deal with the problem. But in the case

of Italy, it is hard to conceive how they would be a package of

money that would be big enough to deal with the problem. Meanwhile,

the speculation that the European leaders are thinking about a

eurozone that will have fewer eurozone members than today has

grown apace. Some flesh has been put on those bones. It is clear

there are discussions going on about that. In the near term, we

have something which absolutely could be an economic catastrophe.

In the medium term, we have the prospect of dismantling at least

part of the eurozone. With Italy taking centre-stage, it seems

things are even more precarious than last week, because you have

Italian bond prices going through the roof, unsustainable over a long

period of time, and yet they need to get away 300 billion euros of

bonds next year. They need some kind of bail out, and there is no

bail out fund available. It is just a figment of Merkel and Sarkozy's

imagination. Berlusconi seemed quite unperturbed in the week. We

have lost two prime ministers in a week. I never agreed with Michael's

view that this might be, perhaps if not the end of the euro, the end of

17 member countries in the euro, but increasingly he looks like he

might be right. Because Italy is now what everyone feared. And I

think that contagion now means that the European Central Bank are going

to have to take a bigger role, meaning Germany will have to take

pretty tough decisions. They must be thinking, what about Spain,

Portugal. We cannot just go on like this. I am glad you mentioned the

European Central Bank, because it is now the official policy of this

government and of Her Majesty's opposition to urge the European

Central Bank to become the lender of last resort, that they would act

like a central bank does in America and here in Britain, too, and go

and buy up all of the bombs that Italy needs to get away. I put it

to you, Alan, that to put the ECB in that role, and to ask the

Germans to agree to that is, in political culture, like asking the

Labour Party to privatise the NHS. Given their history, yes. Is there

an alternative? The ECB is already buying Italian bonds but in very

small amounts around the edges. they could only buy on the

secondary market, not new issues. True, but the point is, how did

they get out of this situation? It is a terrible dilemma. As I said

last week, British Government policy is now puzzling me because

we seem to be calling for all the things we do not believe in. We

cannot believe that the role of the ECB is to print money to buy

Italian bonds. The only possible explanation is that the Government

is so terrified of what may happen in the short term. I suspect this

is all about what may happen to British banks. Either in the first

wave of shocks, our direct exposure to Italy, or in the second wave if

it moves to another set of countries, where we are more

exposed. British banks have a 350 billion euro exposure to what we

might call the Club Med countries. Let me make some predictions. I

think there will be an Italian default, not on the scale of the

Greek default, which was 50%. The Italian default will be, the people

who bought Italian debt will get back 80% of their money, let's make

a prediction like that. That is going to lead to the

nationalisation of most of the Big news. James Murdoch appearing

before the Select Committee, did it achieve anything today? I think

James Murdoch is in trouble, actually. I said on this programme

weeks ago that the regulation of investigatory powers act has a

clause, I think it's 79, talks about directors and their

responsibility, and it talks about even if they knew nothing about

what was going on, they should have. This is wilful ignorance? This is

wilful ignorance. I think today was more kind of the - just watching it

there, it's pretty clear he has no answers to these questions. It's

straight run-off between him now and - Colin Myler has come into the

frame because he has been introduced... Indeed. It's now a

circular firing squad because they've all got an interest of

doing down each other. Although he wasn't - there was no gotcha moment

today, it did come across very much that - in James Murdoch's testimony

either "I didn't know" or "I didn't even ask". I mean, he's paying

�700,000 to Mr Taylor as a pay-off, but didn't even ask to see the

opinion of the leading counsel. Even in 1950s America and in

fiction and movies do committees deliver killer blows, but I think

James Murdoch did lose more credibility today. That may be a

matter for the shareholders of News Corporation to decide if his

position is sustainable. More than that, in the Westminster village,

the assumption is quite a lot of people are going to get convicted

and go to jail and not necessarily including James Murdoch, but that

is what people think is going to happen, so this has a long way to

run. Was Tom Watson, your Labour backbench colleague, who has been

the leading interrogator on this and gained many admirers as a

result - but was he right to claim that the Murdoch family was a Mafia

family? That's the kind of knock- about you get at these committees.

Michael was talking about Hollywood films. Sometimes it feels like that

when you're on a Select Committee, but Tom has done a lot of hard work

on this. I understand that he might have let himself down. I don't

think so. He's also come under a lot of interrogation and pressure

himself. Let me just remind you why the similarly might come to mind -

a lawyer who is representing people who have been introduced in a

criminal act by News Corporation is then filmed and his teenage

daughters are filmed over a long period of time. These are not nice

actions. These are the actions that smack of a corporation trying to

intimidate its enemies. And out of control. Theresa May - do you

really think she's toast? I don't know, probably not. Liam Fox has

just gone. Cameron won't want to lose his Home Secretary after

losing his Defence Secretary, certainly not one of the few senior

women in a senior position. Look, I think it's about the Government has

acted dishonorably. There are loads of examples of Conservative

Ministers in the past who would not dream of naming a civil servant.

What Teresa should have done is - let's leave aside who is right in

this. She's said, there's been an investigation. I believe they have

gone beyond the pilot I have set up. I am insisting they're treated

fairly. I am not naming any names - instead of that she names Brodie

Clark. She says, I am responsible for my decisions. Brodie Clark is

responsible for his. He can only answer back if he resigns. What's

your reaction to that? Dishonourable. As we bring this

part to a close? I stick to the part that Brodie Clark was actually

suspended by his boss, which was not a Ministerial action. However,

the rest of what Alan said I have sympathy with. I don't think I

would have gone into the House of Commons and start naming civil

servants. I think a certain code would have held me back. All right.

Even though it looks like they have cut your old department in half,

it's still pretty unmanageable. It's difficult.

Now, when This Week finally kicks the television bucket and joins the

great big BBC archive in the sky - filed in its rightful place

somewhere between such public service broadcasting classics as

Eldorado and Snog, Marry, Avoid - we'll leave behind us very little

evidence that we ever existed - a few empty kegs of Blue Nun in the

green room, a pair of slightly damp leopard-print speedos in Michael's

locker and a deep and meaningful indentation in a BBC props

department sofa, forever marked, "Diane Abbott Woz 'Ere". So we

decided, before it's too late, to put "legacy" in this week's

Spotlight. We, the jury in the above entitled

action, find the defendant Conrad Robert Murray guilty of the crime

of involuntary manslaughter. Although Michael Jackson's life and

even death were troubled with controversial court cases, the King

of pop leaves behind a musical legacy which will last for decades.

He stole the show from everybody including the Jackson Five. While

undisputed heavy weight champ Joe Frazier claimed he liked to see

guys' knees tremble, he certainly made his mark in sporting history

with the "the Thriller in Manila". Political legacies can be harder to

judge, but family and friends of Labour strategy Philip Gould who

passed away this week have nothing but praise for the way he helped

bring the Labour Party unprecedented success at the ballot

box. I used to find with Philip that the insights he'd give me

about public opinion, about where he thought the country would stand,

were as good as anything I have ever seen in politics. But as

outcoming PM Berlusconi is finding out, the judgment of history will

be far less kind to a man who brought not just bunga bunga girls,

but the whole Italian economy to its knees.

(Playing Thriller) LAUGHTER

I wish there was something to laugh about in the current economic

situation. David Gest, welcome back to the show. Thank you very much.

What do you think your old mate Michael Jackson would have liked to

have had to have had as his legacy? I really believe to be known as the

greatest entertainer of all time. That's what he lived for more than

anything else, was to entertain, to make great records and for people

to appreciate what he did. Do you think, as part of becoming that,

and many people do regard him as certainly one of the greatest

entertainers, that it will be possible to forget all the other

stuff and just remember the music and the entertainment he gave us?

There's a funny thing called time, and with time, people do remember

only the really good things. When you look back at legacies,

Elizabeth Taylor, you don't really think of the marriages so much. You

think of what she did for AIDS, how many people she helped, all the

humanitarian causes she did. With Jane Russell, who raised me - was

my second mom, she started WAIF... Which is? It's for adopting orphans,

and it started in World War II. She started getting 10,000 kids adopted

in the US, then worldwide, and between World War II and the 1964,

60,000 kids were adopted because of her efforts. You were brought up in

Hollywood. Do Hollywood stars - do most of them have an eye on their

legacy? I don't think while they're doing something someone has an eye

on the legacy. I think it's when they get a little bit older - not

when you're 20 or 24. You're a little bit wilder. You're having

fun, enjoying it, but as you get to be 30, 40, 50, you start thinking,

what did I contribute? What will my legacy be? So it comes with age?

Comes with age. That's understandable, and I suppose it's

one of the tragic truths of modern culture that a tragic early death

gives you a legacy. It does. Buddy Holly, the one I remember. Buddy

Holly. Even John Lennon. Elvis Presley, Jim Croce, Mama Cass, who

died here in the UK... The Mamas and the Papas... Of a chicken bone

stick in her mouth. You remember that great voice and

singing with The Mamas and the Paupas. Do you think, Michael, the

top - the Prime Ministers, the Presidents and so on - are they

concerned about their legacy? Tony Blair, I think, for example,

was absolutely obsessed with that. I agree. Alan is nodding there.

think it's wrong to be. Gordon Brown's great legacy is one that I

have never heard him mention and I don't think he particularly sought,

which was to keep Britain out of the euro, but it's absolutely down

to him single-handedly. I want to pay tribute to Gordon Brown tonight.

May I come back to this point about artists and forgetting points of

their life that were inconvenient. I think this is the absolute wrong

approach. The fascination a hundred years later with Van Gogh is about

this man who suffered so much, who cut off his ee, who may or may not

have shot himself at the end of his life - you cannot understand an

artist without understanding the terrible pain and suffering they

went through. We wouldn't want to diverse one from the other.

wouldn't disagree, but if you look at Fatdy Arbuckle... He was the OJ

Simpson of his day. Of his day. People who do remember him remember

his image, what he was about in film. Most kids today don't know

who he was. It's funny. I produce Bette Davis. When I say to kids 20

and 30, "I produced four specials with Betty days," people go, who?

She had an interesting thing with her daughter, but most people

remember her for her films. Do you remember her husbands? No. That's

what I'm saying. Of all the modern Prime Ministers

in this country I can think of - I'll get your reaction because you

knew much better - that Tony Blair was concerned about his legacy and

from quite early on. If legacy is that you have made a difference -

most of us - even Michael and I are footprints in the sand - if legacy

is we made a difference - I can't believe that John Major and

Margaret Thatcher weren't as concerned about that. If you get to

the position of Prime Minister, you want to be able to say we made a

difference. That's why I was nodding about Tony. He wanted to be

able to say he made a difference. What's your lasting legacy?

lasting legacy I believe is the disastrous attempt to reduce the

number of Employment Tribunals. That didn't work. That will always

be sealed in our memory. You have had time to think. What's yours?

The Carlisle Railway is still open. I'll travel on it now. We're in a

24/7 media world now. Does that make it harder to build a legacy?

We see so much now. People aren't quite the stars they were. I think

when you look at people like Bono who is doing so much to help others,

you can build a legacy. You look at actors like Kirk Douglas, who helps

people with Alzheimer's all over the world - I think there are a lot

of young stars who dedicate - Angelina Jolie is a perfect example

of someone who doesn't have to do everything she does and does it

well and not for publicity. Nobody goes to all of these places like

Cambodia and Afghanistan... Just for the pictures. She really wants

to help others. We'll see if Berlusconi's legacy changes over

time, which I wouldn't completely rule out, since before him, Italy

had 49 Prime Ministers in 50 years. David, what are you up to just

before we go? I just did a DVD for Universal called Michael Jackson,

Life of an Icon. And it just came out. It's a two-and-a-half-hour

movie about his life. It really shows the person behind the music.

It's warts and all, but it's a true story. I am sure that'll go down

well. Thank you for being with us. That's your lot for tonight, folks,

but not before Alan and I - we've got things to do because a report

out this week claims most people only have two close friends. So

when Michael mentioned he was looking for some "friends with

benefits?" and told us he'd got a brand new copy of Call of Duty:

Modern Warfare 3 starring James "I Don't Know Nothing" Murdoch, we

both knew we'd be spending the night round at his place. It's the

least we can do for Michael "No Mates". But we leave you with the

comforting thought that the leader of the free world could be being

selected as we speak. Nighty night. Don't let Rick Perry bite. It's

three agencies of Government when I get there that are gone. It's

commerce, education - what's the third? No, five. OK, five. Commerce,

education, and the...... EPA? there you go. Seriously, you can't

name the third one? The third agency of Government I would do