19/01/2012 This Week

Tonight, join This Week for some political stargazing. Photographed

from space, the Costa Concordia lying on it's side. But back on

planet earth, the leadership skills of the ship's captain are being

closely observed. Politician and top naval man Admiral Lord West

tells us what it takes to be a leader with star quality. If you

people are born leaders. The Royal Navy has learned lessons over many

centuries and applying those lessons would help Westminster a

lot. And who are the brightest stars in

the Westminster sky? The Daily Mail's Quentin Letts is studying

the political galaxy. Is Michael Gove on planet Mars with his

thoughts about a royal yacht? And are the coalition welfare

reforms dragging disabled people into a black hole? Star performer

of Extras, Francesca Martinez, is feeling the pull. I've got cerebral

Get ready for a Big Bang. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week,

a cosmic dwarf in the political universe, with zero atmosphere, a

black hole for a brain and very little sign of intelligent life. A

bit like the Department for Education in fact, where Young

Micky Gove, the man supposedly in charge of educating the nation's

children, has been filling his curiously empty days with securing

some brown-nose points from the Palace via the age-old Tory trick

of sucking up to the royals. Never mind all those pesky failing

schools. What matters most to Mikey is the outrageous failure to

provide the Windsors with a dedicated floating cocktail cabinet.

And if that means wasting valuable time pestering Cabinet colleagues

for support and rich folk for money, so be it. Greater love hath no man

than this, that he lay down his political credibility for a royal

yacht and a possible knighthood. Speaking of those who have trouble

being taken seriously, I am not, sadly, joined on the sofa tonight

by the scourge of "divide and rule" evil whiteys everywhere, Diane

Abbott. Despite last week's announcement that she'd be billing

us this week for her time, and despite no public demand whatsoever,

Diane has let it be known that she is now "otherwise engaged". So if

you, or anyone you know, catches sight of Diane tonight, please call

0800 ABBOTT-ON-THE-RUN, before she does or says something else stupid.

So, turning to those who are always available at late notice, I'm

joined on the sofa tonight by two of TV's easiest bookings. The

Lembit Opik and Sally Bercow of late-night political chat. Or

should that be chavs? I speak, of course, of Michael Portillo and

Jacqui Smith. Good evening. Good evening. My moment of the week?

Mitt Romney, the front runner for the Republican nomination has had

to reveal that is effective Taggart -- tax rate is 15%. He is a very

rich man, owner of a hedge fund. The average American has seen no

increase in living standards for 30 years in real terms. The average

American is paying 35% tax. That is the top rate. I thought that was

the average. It is a lot more than 15, that is for sure. I do not

think they candidate with the tax rate of 15% is going to stand a

chance, because for once in this American election, the question of

unfairness, disparity of income is going to be a big issue. It looks

to me as though Mitt Romney is going to be beaten by Barack Obama.

I hope we'll be there to find out. I hope the director-general is

watching and saving his pennies to send us. I look like a woman of the

people but I am a big fan of political economy, so this week I

had a surfeit of speeches about responsible capitalism. I have had

three, of course. Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband today and David Cameron.

All these politicians recognise, led by Ed Miliband, that there is a

question about how you make capitalism work in the sort of

crisis it is in at the moment. The real point about whether they will

break through is whether they can translate that into policies that

will resonate with the voters. Ed Miliband, I think, is doing better

than most in actually giving examples of what that actually

means. You would say that, wouldn't you? Not always. It is impossible

to talk about capitalism these days without an adjective in front of it.

I have a moment of the week. I was filming in How So this week, John

Prescott's home town. -- in Hull. We went to his favourite Chinese

restaurant and I asked the waiter to see the wine list and he said,

no need, John Prescott has left a bottle for you. It was a bottle of

Blue Nun. How cool was that? It tasted rather good. I hope I have

not let the cat out of the bag. It tasted better than I thought it

would. Now, Now, the questionable actions of

Captain Francesco Schettino have been the focus of much media

attention this week after his cruise ship ran aground off the

coast of Italy and he was accused of fleeing the scene in a lifeboat

whilst men, women and children fought for survival on board. The

captain said he'd tripped into the lifeboat and couldn't go back on

board because it was dark, which has got be the first sketch in the

next series of Little Britain. So what does it mean to be the captain

of a ship and a leader that commands respect? Can politicans

learn a thing or two from naval leadership when it's done properly?

Admiral Lord West, former head of the Royal Navy and Security

Minister, gives us his take on the We have all seen the dramatic and

horrifying footage of the Costa Concordia capsizing and sinking

close to an island off Italy, and people desperately trying to get

ashore. It is too early to make a judgement about the actions of

people involved, or what caused the accident. But there is no doubt

when one listens to the radio conversations between the

coastguard and the ship's captain, when one hears the ship's captain's

statements, it makes one feel very I think it is fair to say that any

naval officer would field it was his duty to remain with his ship if

it were sinking, until those people he was responsible for were

actually saved and secure and out of the ship. That, certainly, has

been a tradition for many centuries. Indeed, I was captain of HMS ardent,

a frigate in the South Atlantic. I was bombed throughout the day and

my ship finally sank and I did not leave until I was sure the only

people remaining in the ship were dead. I have considerable

experience of leadership in the Royal Navy over many years, but

when I went into the business world and later into the ministerial

world, I found those lessons of leadership equally applied there.

One lesson, of course, his moral integrity, where you must make the

right and correct decision even if it affects your safety, wellbeing,

or possibly your wealth. Loyalty is crucially important. You must put

yourself on the line for your people. Loyalty goes both ways,

upwards and downwards. You must make sure you recognise when one of

your team has done something really good. They should get the credit

for it, not you. Similarly, if something goes wrong and they get

it wrong, you must be the one who takes the blame. They are your team.

There is no way you can put the responsibility for getting it wrong

on to them. These things are important in leadership terms. Very

few people in the world are born leaders. Similarly, very few have a

charisma bypass and will never be a leader. Most people can learn

leadership. In all my experience at the Westminster village, I believe

if they did that Westminster would be a much better place.

Admiral Alan Weston the deck of HMS Wellington. He now joins us in our

poop deck in Westminster. -- Admiral Alan West. You saw your

ship go down in the Falklands War. You lost men when that happened.

Hard to imagine, from us sitting on the sofa in a comfortable studio, a

bigger test of leadership than that. Yes, but it is imbued in you from

the moment you joined the Navy or the military. As I say, you can

learn certain things, and you feel a huge bond with your ship. In the

Navy, it is called your grey mistress. You spend more time with

it than you do with your family. The thought of leaving it is

horrendous. You finally have to do a switch from doing everything to

keep your ship's safe, even if people have to die to do it, to

suddenly realising that you have to let it go, but then you have to

make sure you look off and save those people you are responsible

for. They are your people. Can you learn that kind of leadership, or

are you born to be a leader like that? I think a lot of it you can

be taught. A very small number of people are born leaders. Most

people have to learn it and they can build their capability. There

are lessons and ways of doing it. There are some people who eat you

follow out of curiosity, but they are not really the people you want.

-- there are some people who you follow out of curiosity. But most

people have to learn it. Most people pick up these various

techniques and ways of doing things, how to behave properly. I think

moral integrity, in terms of realising that actually you will

have to do something that might go totally against the grain in terms

of your safety, security, wellbeing, whatever it is. I think that is

very important. I am a great believer in humankind and most men

and women actually have that there, but they need to be trained and for

it to be brought out. Both of you have run great departments of state.

Let me start with you, Michael. When you walked into the Ministry

of Defence as Secretary of State for Defence, this huge department

with so many people, a huge budget, huge responsibilities, did you

think, I can lead this department, or did you think, gulp, can I lead

this department? I thought I could leave the department but I was

immensely influenced and talk a great deal by the people I was

leading, because a lot of them were military and they had the

characteristics that Allen has mentioned. And I entirely agree,

the armed forces are a very good example of how leadership is taught.

Because they draw people from all parts of society. And at the lower

levels, the lower levels of entry, some of the people brought into the

armed services are kids from very difficult backgrounds, who turn out

to be absolutely exemplary figures. And we know that some of the

greatest heroes of recent conflicts have been kids who have been taken

from difficult backgrounds and have been taught leadership and courage.

They have then shown this fantastic bond towards the people that they

are fighting alongside. Absolutely inspiring. Someone with your career

has to have had confidence in your leadership abilities. After all,

you ran to the leader of the Conservative Party, which means you

must have had enough confidence to think you could lead the country,

because that is what it could lead to. Yes. I think politicians also

go through a bit of leadership training. It is not based at the --

particularly sophisticated leadership training, not organised,

but you do rise from being a Member of Parliament to being the most

junior level of minister to being a middle-ranking minister, to being a

Cabinet minister, and then a more senior Cabinet minister. You jolly

well ought to be learning something along the process. I was not quite

sure what Alan was getting at, because there was a sting in the

tail of his film which seemed to imply that he thought people in

politics were not offering leadership. I think we are seeing

fine examples of leadership at the moment. You hold on to that Sting

because I'm going to come back in a minute. Prepare it, develop it and

make it potent. Can I give one tiny example? Jacqui has been patient.

Unlike other people who come on the show. There is a wonderful moment

in the Iron Lady film, where a lot of people wearing naval uniform are

plotting the course of the Belgrano across the map during the Falklands

conflict. And then all of the men in the room turned to the leader,

the Prime Minister, and they say, what is the decision, Prime

Minister? And that is the loneliness of command, in the end.

That responsibility rests with one person. President Obama had that

over a summer Bin Laden, taking the final decision and sending in extra

helicopters which saved the day. What did you feel like when you

walked into the Home Office, that is -- the dysfunctional department.

I was his boss, of course, so I am interested in what he has to say. I

felt, gulp, I can do this. Michael is right, you do not become a

secretary of state without having, in my case, eight years of

ministerial life up to that point. Nevertheless, and political

leadership is not about putting your life at risk, so it is not the

sort of personal risk and bravery that Alan had to show in his

leadership. But there are, I suppose, both the requirement to

set strategic direction and the ability to be able to deal with

events that hit you. The first time I met Alan was the day after I

became Home Secretary, when we were responding to the failed terrorist

attack in Haymarket and subsequently in Glasgow. Which

could have been horrendous. could have been absolutely awful.

That is when you are thrown in at the deep end, and you respond to it,

as Michael also rightly says, with the support of some extremely

talented and committed people You have shown great leadership, as

you did in the Falklands and you met great leadership in your

military career. What did you make of the leadership when you entered

the political world? When - I do believe there are certain areas

within the world and maybe it is because politics makes this happen,

which run contrary to the way we would run things in the military.

For example, the issue of courting popularity. Now, some politicians

do do that. People - you don't want people necessarily to be your mates,

but admire what you are doing and to be pleased you are leader and

most people want to have a good leader, so that can be a problem, I

believe. The business of packaging oneself in a different way. We are

taught firmly you have to be who you are. A marine or sailor will

bowl out in seconds if you are pretending to be something else. I

believe the British people bowl out pretty quickly, but sometimes

politicians do try to do that. I think that is a bad thing. I think

there are examples of these things where you need to create within

your organisation a feeling where actually they would do anything

rather than let you down. I remember my daughter saying,

because my wife would sometimes tell them off, you just needed to

raise your eyebrow, because we would do anything, because we would

do anything. I believe people don't always do that. Maybe it's just

because that is politics, but I think people could learn more and

apply some of those things and it would have a huge effect.

recent Labour leaders, Tony Blair, even his enemies said he was a

natural leader. Gordon Brown, many people thought he was a natural

leader, but he didn't. What went wrong? Different leadership in

being Chancellor and being Prime Minister. It comes back to the

point I was making about how you respond to events. Now, Gordon, I

think everybody would say was a splendid leader as the Chancellor,

where you had long -- longer to consider the route you needed to

take. When he became Prime Minister he responded very well to the sorts

of challenges that were facing him. I think it was more difficult for

him to quickly and instinctively decide on the things that hit him.

Whereas Tony had an instinctive way of quite often saying and doing the

things that resonated with the public. Alan, we have come to the

end, but the Falklands has been in the news again. There is a distant

sound of war drums, perhaps, beating. The Prime Minister has

made a statement. In your view, because I know you follow this and

given the cuts to the defence budget, do we have the capability

to defend these islands still and if the worst happened and hostility

broke out or looked like it, can we reinforce them in time and to the

sufficient level required? I do believe we have the capability to

defend them. I believe we need to look very carefully at what poor

structures we have there, because having built in large airfield

there, if the Argentinean military felt they could get hold of it,

then there is a real problem because no longer could we recover

it, because we don't have the carriers. I believe people are

aware of that and I'm sure the MoD are making the right moves and

certainly we can do that. I don't think at the moment they intend

military action. It is very volatile. They've always thought

they are theirs. You never know what might happen. Thank you.

Babestation linked. There's no need to gird your loins just yet,

because coming up Francesca Martinez will be joining us to talk

about society's attitude towards disabled people. This will make you

laugh. She's had a few. Is he pissed or mental? Here she comes.

That's my sister. She has got cerebal palsy. Remember we love

nothing better than reading your petty gripes and sinister insults.

If you can afford the electricity, you can always find us on the

interweb, the Twitter and Facebook. It was heart warming to discover

this week in an exclusive interview with Now, ma Call Me Dave and Sam

Cam have managed to to programme a regular date night. I can picture

them now, curled up together on their posh sofa, class of vintage

Blue Nun Royal in hand and tuning in to This Week. Hello Prime

Minister. Hi Sam. We've got a treat in store for you. Here is Quentin

Knives are being sharpened in Westminster this week. Labour

leader Ed Miliband should watch out for his gullet. It was meant to be

the big announcement of the week - we are changing direction and all

that. Come on Ed Balls where's the beef? There is it. However

difficult it is for me, for some of my colleagues and our wider

supporters, we can't make any commitments now for the next Labour

Government will reverse tax rises or spending cuts and we won't.

cuts, cuts. Labour now accepts the case for the Government's spending

cuts. Have I got that right? I want to correct you on one thing - we

continue to believe the Government is going too far and too fast in

the cuts that they are making. on, I'm getting a bit confused. You

don't accept the cuts, but you wouldn't reverse them? Have I got

that right? What we are saying is that we oppose the cuts now. But it

would be irresponsible three years from a general election for us to

start making specific promise $about what cuts we would reverse -

- promises about what cuts we would reverse. Public sector pay has to

come into the deep freeze. That didn't half kebab the union leaders.

Tough Ed, he's the leader, wants to be absolutely sure we got it

absolutely clear, so here he was one more time - the man in control.

I'm leading this party and making the difficult decision and if

people don't like it, I'm afraid it is tough. We'll make the tough

decisions. Face up to the tough choices. Tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

we get it, he's tough, but not tough enough to stop David Cameron

making mincemeat of him at Prime Minister's questions. Mr Miliband

devoted all his questions to the rising unemployment figures, but

the Prime Minister soon cut mim down to size. Last year -- him down

to size. Last year he marched against the cuts, now he accepts

them and yet today he's telling us he wants to spend more and borrow

more. He's so incompetent he can't even do a you turn properly. -- U-

turn properly. That's what I call a The Chancellor, George Osborne,

trotted off to China and the Far East and while there he gave an

interview and talked about expectations for growth. It seems

there may be more trouble ahead. Anything else, darling? I don't

know what next week's GDP number is going to be. Our independent

forecaster, the OBR, has warned us that it may well be a negative

number. That was their forecast in November, but they didn't forecast

a recession. You don't have to tell me that the economic environment is

very difficult. Mr Butcher Leveson, sorry, Lord Justice, has been

continuing his work with his inquiry into press ethics. He took

evidence from various Fleet Street editors, strung up like sausages,

they were. They had no problem telling him where they think things

have been going wrong. If you are the editor of a Murdoch paper and

you see the Prime Minister's organising a slumber party for the

wife at Chequers, oh, presumably that gives you unbounded confidence

to do whatever you like. Or if the Prime Minister appoints an ex-News

of the World editor to be his communications director, you must

think, well, we're top of the pile. What coo stop uts? -- what could

stop us? Is it true there war phone hacking going on among the showbiz

team? No, not to my knowledge. say, "Not to my knowledge." Can I

take it therefore it was possible it was going on, but hidden from

you? It might well have been. look at those porky pies. In the

Commons, that ageing ruemnepbt, Labour MP, Dennis Skinner, asked

David Cameron if he would be going in front of the inquiry I will be

delighted to appear at the Leveson Inquiry whenever I'm invited and

I'm sure others will have the same view and I will answer all the

questions when that happens. It is good to see the honourable

gentleman on such good form. I often say to my children, no need

to go to the Natural History Museum, come to the House of Commons at

12.30. Education Secretary, Michael Gove, arguably one of Westminster's

greater hams, let it be known in a letter to colleagues this week that

he supports the idea of a new Royal yacht. To mark the Jean's Jubilee.

This came up in the Commons. letter, which I wrote to the Prime

Minister on 12th September, clearly stated that I agree of course that

the project for a Royal yacht was one and I was quite clear in the

letter, where no public funding should be provided. To be honest,

trade at Westminster has been a little bit slow this week, but it's

that time of year, but with Labour just opening up the economic

discussions and with the coalition politics always juicy, things can

only get better. They are dead these things, aren't they? No, they

are not. Quentin Letts hamming it up at the Ginger Pig in Marylebone

in London. More economic gloom this week, Michael. Should we now take

it for granted we'll be back in recession? I think it's very strong.

No, we can't, because the recession means two quarters of negative

growth and we simply have no idea whether it will happen, but it's a

possibility. Unemployment rose again in the broad measure, which

is the more accurate one for the labour market surveys. It's a toxic

issue for any Tory-led government. I don't quite get the sense yet

that the public are giving them all the blame. It's not yet paying a

huge political price. I think that's true and in any Kay for the

economy to be in a healthy state we need fewer people working in the

public sector and more in the private. Underneath some of the

figures, some of what is happening in the private sector looks quite

encouraging. There's been an increase in the number of self-

employed people. Those people may or may not be making enough money

to live on, because they are self- employed, so that's another reason

why the figures are not at the moment as damaging as you might

think. By the way, you say it's toxic, it is. However, Margaret

Thatcher's government went on winning elections when unemployment

was three million and when people were extremely upset about it

indeed. You mentioned the moment of the week the speeches about

reforming capitalism. Moral capitalism and compassionate and we

don't want crony capitalism, but John Lewis capitalism. Do you think

anybody is really listening? Well, I think the challenge will be

whether or not you can translate that into something that means

something to the public. Ed Miliband should be pleased when he

raised this last September there was a certain amount of poo-pooing.

Even I wasn't sure about talking about predators and producers, but

he did set a stall out about vested interests and about the challenges

of irresponsible capitalism. Others have now had to respond to that.

Whilst David Cameron, with some justification could say he was

talking about this several years ago, he wasn't talking about it

until Ed Miliband put that back out there and now doubt he's doing that

because there is a feeling in the polls and in focus groups from the

public, that there is something not right in the way in which

capitalism is working and there is an unease about it. Manifest by

particular examples of unreasonable high levels of pay, but

nevertheless something that politicians feel they need to

All of the politicians are talking about the need to change cataclysm

and it happens when Goldman Sachs announced a bonus pot of about �8

billion. People like me say it is so much hot air, if that is still

going on. It is broader than executive pay. It will be

interesting to see what Vince Cable comes up with next week as part of

his package. Ed Miliband spelled out a wider range of issues today.

He calls it a rigged energy market. The energy market he presided over

as energy secretary. That is a fair argument. I also went to see the

Iron Lady this week and what was interesting was Margaret Thatcher's

idea of creating a share owning democracy through privatisation.

That never happened. Increasingly, monopoly power went back into that

market. There is an argument that says the Government needs to step

in, regulators need to step in to make the market work effectively in

the way was intended to. The market is regulated, but it is a question

of whether that is effective. Looking at energy prices, you do

wonder. But why do you think Ed Miliband and Ed Balls made such a

song and dance about the economic policy speeches? I am not clear -

maybe you can enlighten me - where Labour policy has actually changed.

In some ways, Labour policy has not changed. But you need to exemplify

the policy Ed Balls spelled out in his conference speech about their

needing to be discipline in public sector pay, us having to face up to

the fact that we would inherit a deficit if we came back into power.

We knew all that. Unita translated into something that means something.

-- you need to. Two things happen this week. First, Ed Balls made

explicit that Labour would not oppose the public sector pay

discipline, the effective freeze. And secondly, got into a row about

it with the unions. Did he need that? I do not think it was planned,

but it was an important test as to whether Ed Miliband or Ed Balls

would back off from what they had said, and neither of them did. That

is quite important, if, in order for Labour to make progress, they

need to get back to a position where they have economic

credibility. And for all sorts of reasons, the time wasted while

there was a leadership election, etc, it is now very difficult, it

is the case that the public believes that the economic

situation is the fault of the last Labour Government. So to be heard,

to make progress, you have to win back economic credibility. Then you

need to move on to the positive forward programme, developing this

idea about growth, what is a modern industrial policy, but you have to

be heard before you can develop that. It is useful to have a fight

with the unions if you are a Labour leader. It is. This is a

significant molar because Labour is saying it will not necessarily

reverse the cuts, or the income tax rises. I think that concedes

enormous ground. It means the Government have a much easier time

for the next three years because of them will be challenged on this.

Labour will not be able to promise at the election that it will

restore the cuts. And it has another effect which is even more

important, which is that when Government ministers face

interviewers from the BBC or anyone else, if the interviewers are

saying, why are you making these cuts, the response will always be,

even the Labour Party is not saying it would restore these cuts. I

think it is an immense step forward for the Government, actually.

has certainly created confusion in the eyes of a lot of people. Even

someone like me, page to follow these things, I am not clear where

Labour stands. I tried to get it out of Andy Burnham this weekend he

said, the only real change is that we now accept the public sector pay

freeze. That is running to catch up with reality. It is legitimate to

say that we oppose what is happening at the moment.

Incidentally, we said you were cutting too far and too fast. And

we have been proven right, because you are having to borrow more

because too many people are unemployed and there is

insufficient tax revenue and too much benefit payment. If they

should be borrowing more, why not restore the cuts? It is right to

oppose what is happening at the moment but to say that the point at

which we will need to make decisions about what we are going

to spend on his in three years. And the public is not silly. They know

that any Government will need to make decisions on the basis of the

situation that they find themselves in at that point. We knew that.

do not restore economic credibility by saying we will make easy

promises in order to win you over, because that will not work. I have

not had Labour make an easy promise to me anyway, so it was not on the

agenda. Anyway, we have run out of time. Very quickly, the royal yacht,

a new royal yacht, done by public subscription, not public money,

private money, a new royal yacht which the country would also used.

Good or bad, yes or no? If we are going to have a royal yacht, the

taxpayer should pay for it. He is not a politician any more! I do not

think either the taxpayer all other charitable funding should pay for a

royal yacht. What kind of countries as we will have a will yacht and

4th not pay for it -- we will have a royal yacht and not pay for it?

Now, when Boy George Osborne first claimed, with a straight face and a

chunk of inherited wealth tucked safely in his bank account, that

"we're all in this together," we were surprised, not that he'd

pinched the phrase from a song and dance routine in High School

Musical, thank the Lord for Wikipedia for that fact. But we did

doubt the Government's commitment to squeeze benefits until the pips

squeaked. But with the introduction of Personal Independence Payments,

so-called PIPS, and the scrapping of the Disability Living Allowance,

that's exactly what many people now fear. So we turned to actress and

comedian Francesca Martinez, and asked her to put society's attitude

towards disabled people in this I've got cerebral palsy, but I call

myself wobbly, because I think we should have more positive names for

conditions. Like instead of schizophrenic, why don't we just

say overly imaginative? And mentally retarded. Jeremy Clarkson.

As a wobbly person, I am very worried about the planned benefit

reforms. And disabled people everywhere are feeling the fear.

Fear that their benefits, which go towards basic costs, will soon be

taken away. The Government claim it is all about making the system work

better for those in need. But they also claim that they have to cut

their budget by 20%. Revealing their true motive, kicking half a

million people off benefit. All of this talk of us being a drain on

society confirms the stereotype that we are simply a burden. And

public attitudes are hardening, with disability hate crime up 75%.

And it's not a coincidence. Anyone can become disabled. And that's why

we all need to fight these reforms. If the Government continues to

target the most vulnerable, there are many more people like me who

will take a stand, even if it is a wobbly one.

Welcome to This Week. Thank you. am interested to hear you say

public attitudes are hardening towards disabled people because in

my lifetime I have seen a revolution in attitudes towards

disabled people. And not just in what has been provided, and new

rights conferred that they should have had, but they have a voice as

never before, too. Well, they are still largely invisible in the

media. And also, those hard-won rights that you are speaking about

are much appreciated, but that's windier, because we are worried

that those rights are being taken away by this Government. -- that is

why we are here. Do you think, Michael, that there is a hardening,

tough times, crackdown on welfare and less sympathy? No, I have not

detected that change in attitude. I would have said the same as you,

that there has been a revolution in attitude in a positive sense. There

is a problem because the public believes there are many people

claiming disability benefits who are not disabled, and that is

probably the Government's view as well. I would have thought disabled

people would want to be very vigilant and would want to be at

least as concerned about that as the Government. I would like to

contest both points. The first point is that disability hate crime

is up by 75%, which really backs up the notion that attitudes are

hardening. Also, fraudulent claims of disability benefit are 0.5%,

which is the smallest out of all the benefits. So really that puts

your assertion that there are people claiming this who don't need

it, it really puts that into the negative. Saying fraudulent claims

is putting it very strongly. I hope Jackie might agree with me that

governments of both parties over a long period have found it

convenient to does -- disguised unemployment has this ability.

People they think are long-term unemployed, they have steered

towards disability benefits because they are then not on the

unemployment count. Many politicians have been complicit in

this. A lot of people who received disability benefits are not, as you

and I would understand them, disabled. Again, I dispute that.

Even now, with the benefits in place, nearly half of all disabled

people live in poverty. Four out of 10 disabled children live in

poverty. These are astounding figures for a First World country.

And they certainly do not reflect your view that, oh, disabled people

have it easy. I have been researching... That is not my view.

Well, you are certainly making a claim that there are lots of people

out there who are claiming disability benefits who do not need

them. In my experience, people use disability living allowance to

cover the most basic costs. We are talking about getting around,

feeding themselves, cleaning themselves, hiring care. They are

not on the beach sunbathing. Jacqui, where are you want this? In my

experience the only way to overcome a discrimination against you is for

those people who are discriminated against to have a voice and speak

up against it. That, I think, is why progress has been made on

rights for disabled people. What has been interesting about the

campaign in the last couple of weeks is that the use of social

media has enables disabled people to bring their voices together and

campaign in a way that I certainly have not seen for some time. That,

I think, impacted on the House of Lords. It is part of the reason why

there have been four defeats inflicted on the Government over

the Welfare Reform Bill. And it is only by people having the sort of

ways we are hearing this evening that change happens. Social media

has allowed that to happen because many disabled people cannot go out

and engage in public debate very easily. It is a huge asset. Yes.

The people behind the Spartacus report have done incredibly well.

But it is a real sad indictment that people who are sick and carers

are having to put so much time and energy into defending their basic

human rights. And picking up on what you said before, just briefly,

this financial crisis we RN was caused by a very elite few at the

top. And once again, the vulnerable in society are being made to pay

for the greed of the top. So I think really the Government is

morally disabled. Thank you for coming on tonight.

That's your lot for tonight, folks, especially if you've been indulging

in the infamous This Week drinking game. For those of you still

playing, we leave you with a final shout out of Blue Nun. Try not to

fall asleep on the sofa again. And for those of you unaware of the