12/01/2012 This Week

Tonight, This Week heads north for Monarch of the Political Glen.

MUSIC As the battle for Scottish independence commences and

Edinburgh Emperor, Alex Salmon, locks antlers with England's

Monarch of Downing Street, David Cameron, we're joined by

broadcaster, Hardeep Singh Kohli, who swears he's wearing nothing

under his tartan turban. Well, it may not be tartan, but my heart

most certainly is. If David Cameron thinks he can interfere with the

settled will of the Scottish people, well, he's got another think coming.

Back in Westminster, Labour Leader, Ed Miliband, is fighting for

credibility. Can the Labour leader battle it out against his critics?

The Guardian's Nick Watt says it's time for him to get into shape.

Fighting for his survival, south of the bofrder, Ed Miliband is

struggling to -- border, Ed Miliband is struggling to inspire

the troops. And as High Speed Rail gets the green light does the

romance of the railways live on? The former, laird of Newsnight,

Peter Snow, plays with his train set. There would only be one winner

between the swingometer and my model railway. They may take our

lives, but they will never take.our This Week. Evening all and welcome

back after our three-week lay-off to the wonderful world of This Week.

So, what have we missed? Which political nobodies used the

seasonal quiet to force their way onto the festive front pages? Well,

there's nothing quite like a previously unknown Tory MP

attending a nazi-themed stag party to brighten up the winter gloom.

Aiden Burley MP sir, we salute you. But probably not in the way you're

used to - obviously. Then there's Ed Miliband's intellectual guru,

obscure academic and Labour truth- teller, Lord Glasman, who claimed

over Christmas that there was no strategy, no narrative and little

energy radiating from the Labour leadership. With friends like these,

Ed, who needs John Humphreys? But our award for rudely stealing the

limelight from little baby Jesus must surely go to someone who

Michael and I have been very busy claiming not to know. Not content

with basking in the glare of publicity on Labour's crack public

health team, Diane Abbott spiced up all our holidays by claiming

"'white people love to divide and rule", and don't think we didn't

take it personally. As if sowing discord on the This Week sofa

wasn't enough, she went on to offend London's black cab drivers

by claiming they were averse to picking up black customers. Talk

about a self-fulfilling prophesy Diane. It's the number 38 bus for

you from now on. Thank god she wasn't photographed on a nazi-

themed hen party or Ed Miliband really would've had to sack her.

Speaking of those who don't know where the line is until they

overstep it, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by the risky business and

frisky business of late-night political chat - I speak, of course,

of Michael Portillo, and the original #manontheleft, Alan AJ

Johnson. Michael, your moment of the week? A personal are experience.

Yesterday, I watched an organisation called Medecins Sans

Frontieres, which is one of the organisations that goes to

developing countries and hands out food aid and helps with medicines

and I saw them doing their work and they were handing out food parcels

and providing free medical care to people, but the point was that this

was in Athens. It was free food and medical care to people in Athens.

That bad? The situation is pretty bad in Athens. More austerity to

come too. I know British people say the Greeks brought it upon

themselves, but some Greeks, the poorer people in Greece, are

suffering terribly and they only get unemployment benefit normally

for a year and then it runs out. If they haven't got insurance, they

don't have access to the Health Service. In any case, that

vaccinations are not paid for in Greece. There is real poverty and

problems. I missed that. That is a moment. Alan, your moment?

extraordinary events in the Lords last night. The Lords inflicted

three very significant defeats on the Government over the welfare

bill. All of which I support. One of which was about Young Sports

Personality of the Yearsters who are disabled from birth being

assumed to have made national insurance contributions so they can

access contributory incapacity benefits. The Government incredibly

were looking to take that away. These are kids who couldn't

possibly work and so they were defeated. The Lords vote late at

night and they vote and go home and inflict the defeats. In the Lords'

chamber after, while they are doing all the washing up, the minister,

Lord Freud, tries to movement an amendment that actually reversed

that decision. He was spotted. It was spotted by Baroness Hollis who

was still there, but the amendment overturning the decision of the

Lords was carried, officially. When it was pointed out to him, he said,

I think you are right, I shouldn't have done that, but we are left in

the problem where the Lords voted one way, this motion went the other

way and there is a mess there. Well done the Lords. Well done Patricia.

I want to talk about where the Government goes from here, but that

in the Lords. Who would have thought it? It's been a week in

Scottish politics and in UK politics, with Prime Minister Call

Me Dave calling for a referendum. In the end, Wee Eck was forced to

name 2014 for the day. Westminster wants one sooner rather than later,

so tension remains high. We turned to broadcaster Hardeep Singh Kohli

for his take on the case for Scottish independence. I'll have a

glass of the Macallan. A double, please! There's nothing quite as

Scottish as a man in a Turk an enjoying a dram of whiskey. For

those of you who don't know, I'm a -- I'm as Scottish as the next jock.

I was raised and educated in Scotland, but the Scotland I left

20 years ago is very different from today. There are increased calls

for independence and here's the truth - I'm part of the braveheart

brain drain. I left Scotland for London, because that's where all

the work was. But if Scotland did get independence, well, I would be

back there quicker than you could say, "Help ma bobe." Westminster

were naive to think a Scottish Parliament would dampen the hopes.

Devolution wasn't about creating a nation, it was about restoring a

nation. Let's face it, the political system in Scotland was

set up so as never to have a majority administration. It was

only a matter of time before people wanted more. That time is now. We

are in unchartered territory. The arrogance of the Westminster

Government to think it can tell us when we can or can't have a

referendum. Can I have the roast haggis with mash and bashed neeps

and I'll problemly need another whiskey. Just bring the bottle over.

Thank you very much. The problem for Westminster is Alex Salmond has

led Scotland impeccably. He's a match for anyone south of the

border. He's the leader we have been waiting for. Actually, the

result of the referendum isn't important. What is important is

that the Scots have a referendum and they decide on the question and

they decide on the timing. All the while, David and his cronies are

trying to wrestle back control. Why would they care? They've got next

to no MPs there. We all know Westminster has used Scotland as a

political laboratory. Well, this referendum is Scotland's own

political experiment. I could leave you with a quote from Burns,

"Bought and sold for English gold." Or I could highlight the fact that

there are twice as many pandas in Scotland as Tory MPs. Think on.

Welcome to the programme. If independence is the answer, what

was the question? 42. I don't know. I suppose the question is 42 is a

question. I was trying to be smart. I should have learnt my lesson the

last time I was on. The question is how best to govern Scotland.

Whether it is best done through devolution, through devolution max

or independence or the way that David Cameron is going t wouldn't

surprise me if tomorrow he was reStrategic Rail Authoritying all

the powers for independence and that was from devolution. You know

he won't do that. Why would independence make Scotland a better

place? I think it would enable Scotland to be responsible for its

own future. I'm fed up of Scotland blaming England for all its ills. I

think increasingly if you look for example at the health issues in

Scotland. They are markedly different from Scotland. Scotland

controls its own health and the Scottish Parliament has complete

control over health policy in Scotland. Why don't they allow

Holyrood to al-- raise taxes to have some self-determination for

the people. Scotland is a separate nation. It has been historically.

You said you would go back if it was independent. Why wouldn't you

go back now? If you love Scotland so much? I spend a lot of time

there. I was due to be there today. I stayed to make the film. It is

very difficult to say no to you. The heart of the enemy. I love the

English. Some of my best friends are English. I worry more about

England in the break-up of the union than I do about Scotland. Or

Wales. I would let the English worry about themselves. They are

big enough. Was David Cameron right to make this initiative this week?

No. You don't think he was? It is cack-handed. I don't think he has

focused on the Scottish question. There was a case for doing

something that he did now before Alex Salmond was elected with a

majority. But there isn't a case now. I thought what David Cameron

might do after the landslide was to try to put Alex Salmond in an

awkward position by saying, "I'm interested, but what we have to do

now is get rid of the Barnet formula and settle how we will

divide North Sea Oil between England and Scotland and allow you

to raise your own taxes, but you'll have to be entirely responsible."

That really would I think put Alex Salmond in an interesting spot.

That's not the route that David Cameron has gone. Already, David

Cameron recognised his own mistake, but he's already backed off what he

was going to do. On the other hand, he flushed Alex Salmond out to name

the time for the referendum. don't think that is any particular

skin of Alex Salmond's nose. I recognise - He hadn't told us.

but it seems to me that what Hardeep says, the Scots' demand to

settle timing and the question or more important, but the number of

questions, because what Alex Salmond really wants is not just

independence or not, but devolution max, which is what he'll get in the

referendum and probably -- If it's a question. We don't know if it

will be a question. I think he was fairly clear that devolution max

will be an issue and very clear to say it wasn't his preferred option.

It is still independence. Sure. At the moment we don't know what the

questions are. That is one of the uncertainties. Alan, do you think

it was right to put this on to the front burner? I do. I think he was

right. It was cack-handed to suggest that the Chancellor was

driving this and it was a risk, because it is Cameron and as

Hardeep says fewer Tories if Scotland than pandas in Edinburgh

zoo. He was right to do it, because it looked as if this was all just

about Alex Salmond. What he's launched is a consultation. It's

very important among the Scottish people. It has to be Scotland

deciding. It has to be the Scottish people deciding. I want to keep the

union. I think Michael does as well. Scottish people have to decide. On

the question, I don't think the tile being's really important. The

question is quite important, because I think Scottish people

probably want a yes or no answer. Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy leader,

said that is what it should be and for most people you get devolution

You talked in your film about it's time for the settled will of the

Scottish people? Yes. I looked at the Scottish attitude survey and,

there's a big chart published in tomorrow's Economist showing this,

the most comprehensive study of Scottish opinion, entirely

independent. It shows the settled will of the Scottish people is

stuck and has been since 197 at around 28 for independence?

Absluetdly fine. If that is the settled will of the Scottish people,

allow that to be heard. You implied that the will of the Scottish

people was independence? No, I did not. Watch the film again. I think

Andrew, it's very important we make this point clear. The exercise of

democracy is the single most important thing. I'm not here to

suggest what the result ought to be, I'm just cheesed off at Westminster

not allowing us to express ourselfs in that way. I thought you wanted

independence? That is not the issue. That's what you are here to argue?

I'm here to argue that we should be allowed to be heard. David Cameron,

he's so keen on the Scots to have a referendum as soon as possible,

he's not so keen on the British having a referendum on Europe. You

know what I mean? There are hypocrites and there are hypocrites.

There is nothing in this for David Cameron politically. He's got one

MP, Labour's got a lot in it politically so he must really, I

mean he must believe in the union? It's a hugely magnanimous point,

yes and he's never allowed any arguments against the union to be

deployed in his favour. For example, when Gordon Brown became Prime

Minister, there should have been the most enormous fuss. How could a

man representing a Scottish constituency, when we have

devolution in Scotland, possibly be the Prime Minister of the United

Kingdom when most decisions he took didn't affect his own constituents.

I would have made a huge fuss about that, David Cameron did not make

any kind of English advantage point. So as a matter of principle he must

really believe this? He must believe it. The union's been highly

successful and the Scots would be foolish to leave it. I also believe,

and Hardeep hinted at this a moment ago, I think that the Scots are

infantalised - that's right isn't it? I'm not sure what it means?

Madeley children with their relationship with England. They are

fed subsidy and they depend on that subsidy and the kind of argument

for Scottish independence is they'd get much less money, they would

have to live on their own in the world, they wouldn't be able to

pursue this socialist fantasy. would think they would be the sixth

richest country in the world if they got all the oil revenues. They

don't see it that way? Not at all. We'd be much more prosperous if we

were independent and had the oil. But maybe it would not happen. They

would have to become a tiger economy, that would be the only way.

At the moment Alex Salmond is head and shoulders above the other

Scottish politicians in Tedburg Parliament, but is Alistair Darling

the man to change that? Is he the man to lead don't break up Britain

campaign -- in Edinburgh. Alex Salmond is a consumate politician.

When we get on to the substance of the argument and we have been

talking about process up until now, but the substance of the argument,

the important thing has to be Scots that are leading the debate.

Michael Moore seems to me perfectly reasonable, the Scottish Secretary,

to be taking the lead on this, not Osborne or Cameron. The Scottish

people are far more likely to recognise a panda than Michael

Moore. That is the presence the Tories have. Again, I make the

point that, you know, a minority administration in London is telling

a majority administration in Holyrood what to do. It's democracy

on its head. All right. It's Parliament. I don't hear the Lib

Dems saying much about it but when do they ever say much about it.

Crystal ball - 2014, Mr Salmond's got his way in the timing of the

referendum but Westminster's got its way on insisting about a simple

question on independence, should Scotland be independent or not -

yes or no. What's the result? think a very close no. Alan? No.

think I'm with Hardeep, a very close no. I think Alex Salmond will

persuade a lot of people. By the way, I don't think your scenario is

what I think will happen. That was for this particular crystal ball.

We'll come back to this and use your crystal ball soon. Thank you

for being with us, Hardeep. It's late and you have got to be up

early for your shelf-stacking job in Poundland, but stay with us for

a bit longer, because with us is Peter Snow, broadcasting legend,

who will be telling us why his wife's more than happy to share him

be - with the model railway in the attic. You can reach us on the

interweb or the Tweet machine and the Facebook.

This time of year, after the indulgences of Christmas, we all

need to lose a few pounds in the middle. You will find me this

morning pushing my power beak around, not just merbgs even

Michael Gove's been out exercising -- not just me. According to his

wife, he wants to lose "two dress sizes". Don't ask! What the

Education Secretary wears in the privacy of his own at the tick is -

- attic is only his business. We sent Nick watt to get in shape with

Mr Not vaitor. This is his round-up It's 2012 and the London Olympics

are less than 200 days away. My date as a Communications Workers'

Unionty 1500 metre champion, well, they're a distant memory -- my days.

If I'm to make it into Team GB, I've really got to get into shape.

I just need a bit of motivation. you, you get over here, you lazy

one. Get over here. Look at the state of you. You need exercise.

Get your kit on, now! I'm beginning to understand how Ed Miliband felt

over the Christmas period yod. Whilst he watched back-to-back

episodes of The Killing, he was lambasted on all sides. Even his

guru accused him of having no strategy and little energy. So this

week, he returned to his signature theme and confronted David Cameron

head-on. I say to the Prime Minister, who are you trying to

kid? Nobody is going to believe you came into politics to end croney

capitalism. But now that he has accepted this is a battleground of

politics, I say, bring it on. I say you bring it on. Let's get

physical # I Juan that get physical

Miliband is immensely frustrated. He's done more than any other party

leader to shape the debate on the creation of what he calls

responsible capitalism. But he's poll ratings are dire. And he's in

danger of entering the territory occupied by previous Tory leaders

where his endorsement of an idea can kill off support for it. On the

other hand, David Cameron is achieving what pollsters call cut-

through. He's now embarking on the old Prime Ministerial trick of

thrashing an opponent and then piggy backing on his ideas.

Excessive growth in payment, unrelated to success, that's

frankly ripping off the shareholder and the customer and is croney

capitalism and is wrong. Apparently, it's all about speed. As this

former county champion can testify, and so this week, the Government

finally gave its approval to High Speed Two.

A modern, reliable, fast service between our major cities and

international gateways befitting the 21 century will transform the

way we travel and promote Britain's economic and social prosperity.

Come on, you lazy brute. George Osborne would describe this as a

win-win for the Government. He can claim he is promoting economic

growth through a �32 billion infrastructure project. But the

Chancellor won't need to spend megabucks on laying any track

through bucks until after the next election.

Come on, tone up your body and legs. That keen but rather slow jogger,

David Cameron, has also caught the fitness bug. He held the first

Cabinet meeting of the year at the Olympics handball arena. No

surprises about who stole the show. # Jump for my love... #

George Osborne outlined to the Cabinet his strategy to save the

union. The next day the Scotland secretary appeared in the Commons

to tell MPs that only Westminster has the right to hold or the power

to grant a referendum. To legislate for a referendum on

independence, the Scottish Parliament must have the legal

power to do so. It's the government's clear view that the

Scottish Parliament does not have that legal power.

Come on... Even while the Scotland secretary statement was being

digested, the ever canny Scottish First Minister swung into act ion

and said he'd hold a referendum on his terms. The date for the

referendum has to be autumn 2014 because this is the biggest

decision Scotland's made for 300 years. Get up and do something

about it. I can understand that perhaps they haven't thought about

these things but they must resist the temptation to interfere in

Scottish democracy. This has the pen tomorrow become a major

contusional clash. -- potential to become a major constitutional clash.

Alex Salmond is working hard to ensure that the politics remains on

his side, as he depicts the announcement as a Thatcheresque

power grab. Oi, you, stop all the chinwaging, let's go. Our oldest

Parliamentarians show too that they've been limbering up, as they

tore into the reform Bill. Come on... If he's going to rob the poor

to pay the rich, then enter into a different form of morality. Come

on... You need to do, this lots of work... With just a handful of Lib

Dem rebels who oppose the cuts in benefit payments, but many more

abstained showing that Nick Clegg is going to need all his stamina to

keep his party together as he supports the Government reduction

plan. As we look forward to 2012, we can be certain of one thing - I

will sadly not be competing in the Olympics. Very obvious... On a

rather more important note, we know that the economy will face a

challenging year. But who could have guessed that at the beginning

of the year, we'd face a constitutional crisis. Who knows

what else is going to happen. might buy you a gold medal...

Nick Watt and Mr Mote tvaitor -- Mr Motivator. Alan, it's clear that

it's really tough to get any message across for the Leader of

the Opposition? Is it? I don't know whether for a Leader of the

Opposition it's tougher now than it was for previous leaders of the

opposition. I said something about Cameron in a piece during the week

that he's all hat and no cattle, as they say in Texas. Ed seems to be

all cattle and no hat. Lots of policies. He's thinking really hard

about what we emerge from, given all that we are going through at

the moment, and not returning to business as usual, and lots of the

ideas are being picked up elsewhere. He's doing all that. The hat bit is

about, I suppose, the swagger and the iedfieblt of him with the

public. -- identifyability. He needs to do more of that. One of

the big tests for him is, he takes all the flak that's been thrown at

him and it's been a lot of flak... From his own side? Well, from

whoever, but he deals with it in a very calm and measured way. Some of

that - he said this is an audition for if you want to be the Prime

Minister - that takes a certain amount of courage and a certain

amount of mettle and he's got that. If the problem was that the

policies were wrong, that's quite easy to put right? If the problem

is that the person who's saying them is wrong, that's a lot

tougher? No, I think there's all kinds of examples of the closer you

come to a general election, the more the public focus on the Leader

of the Opposition who finds it very difficult to get any kind of

foothold into that, because... do you get swagger? I don't know

how you do that? You can't change. Swagger is probably the wrong word.

Ed's not going to walk around as if he's the... Exactly the right point.

Most leaders of the opposition have been exactly where Ed Miliband's

been. One who was not was nach Margaret Thatcher. The Cambridge

by-election, the car park was filled with a roaring engines of

cars as he motorcade swept into the car park and all the doors swung up

simultaneously and she jumped out of her car and said "take me to the

battle!". Crikey. She just absolutely had had it. Tony Blair

didn't have a period like this as Leader of the Opposition? He was

seen as Prime Ministerial material when he became leader straightaway.

David Cameron was never like this when he became leader? He had very

rough patches. Despite his adulation, Margaret Thatcher had

rough patches. I remember when a lot of Tories wanted to get rid of

her in 76, 77 but even so it wasn't like this. You said stuems your

party sounds a bit like a university seminar? -- sometimes.

Yes, that's the party. Because of the background of the people there

who've spent their lives in university-type seminars.

things here. First of all, Tony Blair came, in as did David Cameron,

after there'd be 2-2 or three defeats. It was a long way from the

last defeat. Ed's come in at a difficult period when you have just

been voted out of office. The public, you can't say to them, you

made the wrong decision, they made the right decision, they rejected

us. That's a difficult position for the Leader of the Opposition to be

We do sometimes conduct our debates as if it is a Fabian Society

lecture and I love the Fabian Society, but it's not going to get

home to the public and that's all about what I'm talking about, the

way you portray this. The way you portray yourself. Ed has some very

good ideas and we need to ensure that it can be explained in

language that people understand. That was Thatcher's great talent

and Blair's great talent. polling figures are not great for

the party. They are pretty dire for Mr Miliband personally. Does it

matter at this stage? It is unlikely there will be an election

before 2015. Does it matter or do you sometimes get caught in a

downward spiral? I think it matters quite a lot. The experience we had

with Michael Howard and Iain Duncan Smith, William Hague and Neil

Kinnock is once they got into the dive they couldn't pull out of the

dive. I think that probably is where Ed is. That is highly

significant, because the coalition has three absolutely bloody years

ahead of it. Goodness knows how much worse things are going to get

and I think David Cameron can look forward to, not assume, but look

forward to winning the next election. It is almost a greater

point. A Labour MP said to me a lot of what Ed says is absolutely right

at this stage for a leader. He says the right thing, the problem is

it's him that's saying them. don't accept them. You kind of do,

because you made the point about the cattle and the hat. I don't

accept the point that whatever Ed says it's not going to get a hold

because it's him saying it. I do believe that the party needs to

push Ed more and the party needs to be synonymous with Ed. It needs to

be what Labour is saying when he says it. Sometimes there are too

many voices. It needs to be channelled through Ed, but the

messages are absolutely right for the British public. He was saying

in his speech this week, whether it was about the issue of the over 75s

getting the most advantagious energy prices. That is a good idea.

I understand why you are being tactful, but you are fearful of

following the logic of your own powerful metaphor. That can change.

It doesn't. A person who doesn't have a hat or the charisma or the

personality, the force, doesn't acquire it. It doesn't get picked

up. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with the idea - yes,

Thatcher had a great deal of charisma. So did Blair. I don't

believe that now it is absolutely essential for every leader to

follow a kind of stereotype. You can look at Cameron and Clegg, for

instance, who look to be cut out of the same kind of style. I don't

believe - and act in the same way. I don't believe that is essential.

That the British public are not looking to see is this a decent

person, is -- has this person got the right idea for the countries?

If you can persuade the people of that, charisma and all the rest is

of secondary importance. It helps. I don't think it's the vit at

factor. There is a -- vital factor. There was a slightly exect kel look

on Michael's face. -- expect kel look on Michael's face. Now

political and literal trainspotters both wet their anoraks this week

with the announcement of plans to cut 35 minutes off the journey time

between London and Birmingham, but only after the Government pumped

extra wonga into Cheryl Gillan's tunnel - part of its expensive

slush fund to buy off opposition in the True-Blue Tory shires. Yes, the

Government is pushing ahead with its politically-crucial high-speed

rail link to all those juicy marginal constituencies in the

Midlands and beyond. Samantha Cameron's step-dad blames northern

Labour oiks for wanting to trash his beloved countryside and get in

the way of all those subsidised windmills which have become such a

nice little earner for him. But maybe we should blame the love that

dare not speak its name - and put the romance of the train in this

A steam cloud surrounds the great British railways, but it's been a

wobbly journey in the new era of privatisation. Has our remotional

coupling with trains run its course? Standing room only and sky-

high fares have done their best to crowd out the old Roman take

railway memories. Yet the political locomotion is still back in full

force, with Ed Miliband eager to derail David Cameron over ticket

costs in the Commons. Instead of his lines he should get the facts

right about his own policy. He's just wrong. He is wrong. With the

high-speed link given the green light this week, perhaps our

passion for railways is about to leave the station once more.

Although there will always be one train geek who needs little

encouragement to blow his own steam trumpet. I've embarked on another

journey, confident that my trusty guide will continue to give me

insights into the vast areas of the British Isles that I've yet to

explore. SNORE Sorry, Peter Snow. Welcome to the

programme. Great to see you. You are very famous for your

swingometer and the sandpit during war, but you have kept the toy

train set in the atic quite a secret. I haven't actually. --

attic. Quite secret. I haven't actually. It goes right around the

attic and the outside is a very fast, high-speed train. Any tunnels

to go through? Yes. It disappears under a couple. Do you wear a

controller's outfit when you do this? Do you have a timetable?

Fat Controller, I should! Not in your case. I should. I may do that.

You just disappear and you tell the wife, "I'm off now. The 3.30 is

due." You make sure it's on time? That's right. Great fun. That's

right. I have great fun. Our grandchildren love it. I've had a

train since I was four. It is Hornby and a bit of the Flashman.

Triple or double O gauge? Double O. When I was a kid of four, I had an

O gauge, beautiful yellow thing with sanity fa Faye on it. -- Santa

Fe on it. Is the romance of the train stl alive? Oh, yes. People --

still alive? Oh, yes. People are pouring on to trains. 7% increase

to 1.3 billion railway journeys last year. Half that, only 15 years

earlier. Extraordinary. I choose the use of which I think people

thought -- I think the use of which people thought was on the way out.

It's not the romance seeing the train in from Surrey or

Macclesfield in the morning. Even that to me is quite romantic. Not

quite as romantic as what Michael was doing the other day or what

I've done is going through the Rocky Mown contains. Unbelievable.

The steam trains, all over the country. 180-odd? Yep. All over the

country. Like the Dartmouth Light Railway. You have mentioned Michael

and he has become Mr Trains on the BBC. Did you have any real interest

in trains before you got this job? I've never been a train spotter or

had a set, but I've always liked them. For instance, you know -

not much of a qualification. We are addressing romance. Whenever I go

pass a railway line I always look in the hopes there will be a train.

When I pass a bridge I don't look in the hopes there will be a coach

or bus. There is something about trains which is quite different. I

was flying on a plane this morning and every time I looked down and

saw a train I felt an excitement. You just felt another TV series

coming on. Trains from the air will be the next one. Have you watched

the Eurostar going past? Yes. straggering. Do you have any idea

what these two are going on? I do, because I am in a constituency in

Hull and I'm on the train. Larkin wrote a beautiful poem about the

train journey to London and he called it a travelling coincidence.

I can remember the romance of the train in the final years of steam.

Steam was great, because almost every engine was different and

there were different classifications. And huge

difference between the little chuggers and enormous, sleek

expresses. Even the TGV in France, every train looks the same. I quite

agree and the Eurostar. You are quite right. They are fantastic.

The steams are extraordinary. The ones all over this country and the

Polish steam engines, I remember seeing a great big black thing that

was six, ten, four and the Indian trains were still steam until

recently. Are you expected about the new hide-peed trains? Finally

we have caught up -- high-speed trains? Finally, we have caught up.

They are running fast trains on time through big cities. We'll

bring the north and south of the this country closer together and we

are going to have a proper rail system. For or against? For. For,

for those reasons. What do you say to people who say this is just a

huge vanity, high-capital investment programme and it is

Concorde for slow learners? remember when Andrew brought this

to the Cabinet and one of the papers that he produced was a paper

of the motorway system, almost as it is now. It was taken from the

post-war Government who, at a time when debt to GDP ratio was 214% and

they had the vision to look ahead and apart from the M25, it's the

motorway system that was built. Andrew was making the point if we

just make do and mend and upgrade and everyone remembers what the

west coastline was like before. We are letting down future generations.

It is quite different from Concorde. It is infrastructure. What is

remarkable about railway infrastructure is how long it has

lasted. One thing I've learnt from doing the programmes is it is

remarkable that a technology that was first used in the 1830s is

almost exactly the same as we use today. It is steel wheels on steel

rails. Obviously, the form of the locomotion is different, but

otherwise the same thing. Your was going through the Rockies? That's

right. Mine was the Blue Train from Cape Town to pret toria. --

Pretoria. King cross to Hull. That's your lot for tonight, folks.

But not for us - Michael's taking us out for a late-night knickbocker

glory and a free lollipop at the Little Chef before yet another

great British institution falls by the roadside. Yes, over 100 are to

be closed. John Major is said to be so distraught he's giving up egg

and chips, but we leave you with news that every London cab driver's