21/06/2012 This Week


21/06/2012

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Tonight, This Week is at the races: We've put on our top hats and our

:00:22.:00:25.

Royal Procession is ready. Is the UK's leading thoroughbred, David

:00:25.:00:28.

Cameron, taking a big political gamble by attacking comic Jimmy

:00:28.:00:38.
:00:38.:00:38.

Carr over his tax arrangements? is taking that money and stuffing

:00:38.:00:42.

it into somewhere where he does not have to pay tax. That is not fair.

:00:42.:00:46.

It is not right. Pantomime horse and comic, Jim

:00:46.:00:53.

Davidson, takes to the stage. have had enough of the hypocrisy.

:00:53.:00:58.

Come on, who wants to pay more tax than they need to?

:00:58.:01:00.

In Mexico, the world's most powerful leaders are jockeying for

:01:00.:01:03.

position, but are they any closer to solving the eurozone crisis?

:01:04.:01:11.

Commentator Mary Ann Sieghart, relaxes by the pool. No dress code

:01:12.:01:14.

here in Sunni Mexico, but still people are getting hot under the

:01:14.:01:18.

collar. And as Royal Ascot introduces a

:01:18.:01:21.

more draconian dress code, are women feeling the pressure to look

:01:21.:01:29.

good? Model Caprice is studying the form. It's a good job for Andrew

:01:29.:01:33.

and Michael that beauty is in the eyes of the best older!

:01:33.:01:39.

Get ready. We're under starters orders.

:01:39.:01:42.

Evenin' all, welcome to This Week, bringing up the political rear, as

:01:42.:01:46.

per usual, with our beach-side G20 special, unlike the rest of the

:01:46.:01:49.

Westminster press pack, who this week jumped right to the front of

:01:49.:01:53.

the queue and jetted off with the Prime Minister on a mini-break to

:01:53.:01:55.

Mexico, where desperate leaders of the world's largest economies

:01:55.:01:58.

gathered to agree a coordinated response to the Jimmy Carr tax

:01:58.:02:01.

avoidance crisis that's threatening to plunge our economy into a

:02:01.:02:04.

triple-dip recession, bring the eurozone to its knees and prevent

:02:04.:02:12.

the recommissioning of 10 O'Clock Live. As the world looked on

:02:12.:02:15.

helplessly at this time of great peril, cometh the hour, cometh the

:02:15.:02:19.

Call-Me-Dave. Despite, just like the fate of the eurozone, it being

:02:19.:02:22.

technically none of his goddamn business, our brave Prime Minister

:02:22.:02:26.

cast all diplomatic niceties aside and broke off from the high level

:02:26.:02:28.

negotiations to issue an urgent summit communique, branding the

:02:28.:02:31.

hapless Mr Carr a "morally wrong" individual, who he never found

:02:31.:02:39.

funny in the first place. So there! All the way to Mexico, just to have

:02:39.:02:43.

a pop at a stand-up comedian. Now that's statesmanship! We await a

:02:43.:02:45.

similar denunciation of the Conservative-voting, Cameron-

:02:45.:02:50.

supporting, OBE-wearing Gary Barlow. But we're not exactly holding our

:02:51.:02:55.

breath. Speaking of those who have their priorities all wrong, I'm

:02:55.:02:58.

joined on the sofa tonight by two of Westminster's most laughable

:02:58.:03:01.

individuals, the Jimmy Carr Trouble and Jimmy Carr Crash of late night

:03:01.:03:04.

political chat. I speak, of course, of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson,

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:17.

and #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo choo" Portillo.

:03:18.:03:22.

Welcome to you both. Your moment of the week. I think the Greek

:03:22.:03:27.

election result. The reason it is my moment is that there was a fear

:03:27.:03:31.

that the anti- austerity parties would win. Actually, I think

:03:31.:03:35.

something worse happened, which was that the pro austerity parties have

:03:35.:03:39.

won. The reason that is worse is that it would have been useful to

:03:39.:03:43.

have a situation where Greece had to be edged out of the euro. We

:03:44.:03:47.

need an experiment where somebody leaves the euro. Because all of

:03:47.:03:51.

these countries cannot go on being in it. They are unsuited for the

:03:51.:03:55.

purpose. I think with a tiny economy like Greece, if we could

:03:55.:03:58.

have edged it out, we could have learnt a lot about that. The

:03:58.:04:03.

Germans would have been happy to try this as an experiment. And now

:04:03.:04:07.

the Germans have to grin and bear it and keep them in. For now, but

:04:07.:04:13.

it is not over yet. Moment of the week, of the month, of the year, I

:04:13.:04:17.

was in Westminster Hall this afternoon for Aung San Suu Kyi, and

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I have a crush on the woman. She was just amazing. She quoted, say

:04:26.:04:29.

not the struggle. She spoke about her time - this was a woman who

:04:29.:04:33.

went home to look after her sick mother and was 20 years

:04:33.:04:39.

incarcerated under house arrest. So magnanimous, so gentle, so strong.

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No bitterness. Just like Nelson Mandela. It is that special quality,

:04:46.:04:49.

but I think if anyone tries to intellectualise their apathy about

:04:50.:04:55.

not voting in this country, I think I will give them short shrift.

:04:55.:04:59.

Listening to her, battling just for the right to vote and for freedom

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of speech, was memorable. Great parliamentary occasion.

:05:04.:05:07.

Now, Jimmy Carr's tax affairs have been subjected to mass disapproval

:05:07.:05:10.

over the past few days, an experience we're more than familiar

:05:10.:05:13.

with here on This Week. It was revealed that he's used an offshore

:05:14.:05:17.

tax scheme to avoid paying hundreds of thousands of pounds to Her

:05:17.:05:20.

Majesty's Revenue and Customs. Today Mr Carr issued a fashionably

:05:20.:05:22.

grovelling Twitter apology, but fellow stand-up comedian Jim

:05:22.:05:27.

Davidson thinks he's done nothing to say sorry about. So we asked him

:05:27.:05:37.
:05:37.:05:41.

to step up to the mike and give us his Take of the week.

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Ladies and gentlemen, a warm welcome if you please, for the one,

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the only, Jim Davidson. Someone said, what's the difference between

:05:52.:05:59.

a taxman and a terrorist? You can negotiate with a terrorist!

:05:59.:06:02.

People say that tax avoidance is no laughing matter. Jimmy Carr is now

:06:02.:06:07.

in a lot of trouble. He was until he surrendered today. I don't know

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why he surrendered. What a cow would you are. Obviously no room in

:06:12.:06:15.

the Ecuador embassy for both of you. Who would have thought we would

:06:15.:06:21.

have something in common - tax. I never tried to avoid paying tax, I

:06:21.:06:27.

just ran out of money when it came to paying the bill! Here is the

:06:27.:06:31.

thing, and I will use Jimmy and me as an example again, if you

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suddenly find yourself a very rich with lots of money, what are you

:06:34.:06:39.

going to do with it? You go to an accountant or a tax adviser and you

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take advice. If you are sick, you go to a doctor. Perhaps not today!

:06:45.:06:49.

You take their advice in good faith and act upon it. If it is not be

:06:49.:06:54.

legal, who would not do that? I spoke to Jimmy Carr the other day.

:06:55.:07:00.

I said, had a great tour which got �3 million, and after tax, 3

:07:00.:07:03.

million. The fact of the matter is, 1% of

:07:03.:07:08.

Jimmy Carr's earnings is more than most people pay in tax anyway. So

:07:08.:07:13.

he saves a little bit for his future. What is wrong with that?

:07:13.:07:16.

The Government has called aggressive tax avoidance morally

:07:16.:07:21.

repugnant. Big words for me. What I think is morally repugnant is the

:07:21.:07:24.

fact that the Government, a Conservative lead Government take

:07:24.:07:28.

nearly half your income, even more when national insurance is taken

:07:28.:07:34.

into account. If they want to stop tax avoiders, close the loopholes.

:07:34.:07:38.

Some would say that the Government are a bunch of hypocrites. First,

:07:38.:07:43.

the Prime Minister has a go at Jimmy Carr and "people like him"

:07:43.:07:46.

for tax avoidance, and then he rolls out the red carpet for the

:07:46.:07:49.

French to come here and avoid paying their taxes. Something is

:07:49.:07:54.

not right. The French of all people! You know what I think,

:07:54.:07:58.

wouldn't it be simpler if we all paid the same rate of tax? After

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all, a percentage is a percentage. Simple. Jimmy, don't worry, I am

:08:04.:08:10.

sure you will get your OBE. My one stands for one bankruptcy is enough.

:08:11.:08:15.

What do a pelican and the taxman have in common? They can both shove

:08:15.:08:25.
:08:25.:08:26.

their bills up their... Jim Davidson at a Comedy Store in

:08:26.:08:34.

the West End of London. Welcome to our comedy club. The biggest crowd

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I have ever had. It is good to have a real comedian on. Many hard-

:08:39.:08:42.

working people watching will say that they find your views morally

:08:42.:08:49.

objectionable. If you are rich, you should pay your fair share. What is

:08:49.:08:56.

fair? A percentage is a percentage. If he is paying 1% when a nurse...

:08:56.:09:02.

That is not fair. Everyone brings up nurses. It is like they say, it

:09:02.:09:08.

tastes like chicken, or as big as Wales. Wales is not a country.

:09:08.:09:16.

Let's say a train driver. Jimmy Carr loses 40% of his income. That

:09:16.:09:21.

is not fair. He would not need to do that. If we paid the same amount,

:09:21.:09:25.

he would not be to find these ridiculous schemes. That is the way

:09:25.:09:29.

to stop these schemes. Let's all pay the same. Everybody wants to

:09:29.:09:33.

pay tax, because you get a vote and everyone is proud of their country,

:09:33.:09:38.

most sensible people. There are always people that want to opt out.

:09:38.:09:44.

This is no defence of Jimmy Carr. He is only paying 1%. The but why

:09:44.:09:54.
:09:54.:09:55.

is he paying 1%? People say that 50% is too much. If everybody paid

:09:55.:09:58.

the same, would we bother with these fly-by-night people? Would

:09:58.:10:08.
:10:08.:10:09.

you not rather have 25% of Jimmy Carr's money than 1%? Yes, I would.

:10:09.:10:16.

It is not illegal, what was done. Does your conscience not say that

:10:16.:10:21.

you should pay more tax than that? But who wants to pay more than your

:10:21.:10:26.

financial adviser says? You go to a financial adviser and you say, what

:10:26.:10:30.

do I do with this? Why don't the Government just say, how much have

:10:30.:10:34.

you got, give us that? You go to an accountant whose us, we will do

:10:35.:10:44.

this. Is It Legal? Yes. This is doubly morally repugnant. Somebody

:10:44.:10:47.

like Jimmy Carr, somebody like you, knows perfectly well that you

:10:47.:10:51.

should be paying a large proportion of your income in tax. We should

:10:51.:10:58.

pay the same as anybody else. Nobody else pays 1%. A percentage

:10:58.:11:08.
:11:08.:11:15.

of your tax. That is not what is happening. The differences that

:11:15.:11:19.

Jimmy Carr paid 1% and if I understood what he has just said,

:11:19.:11:24.

he paid 0% because he left the country. But it is morally

:11:24.:11:28.

repugnant to pay no tax. Secondly, the Government set up schemes to

:11:28.:11:32.

help the film industry, to help the arts, for Pete's sake. People like

:11:32.:11:37.

Jimmy Carr have taken advantage of those schemes to avoid tax. It is

:11:37.:11:43.

doubly repugnant. Did he set it up to do that? All I can do is take

:11:43.:11:48.

his word, and he's as it was a terrible error of judgment. Even

:11:48.:11:51.

someone on a more modest salary, if they went to their accountant and

:11:52.:11:56.

the accountant came up with a way and said, I have a way of reducing

:11:56.:12:00.

your tax that is entirely legal, the scheme has been before HMRC.

:12:00.:12:06.

Most people would say, yes. problem is that Jimmy Carr is a

:12:06.:12:13.

satirist. And that is the problem. But there is an issue about, don't

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pick on him and make him the fall guy for this, which David Cameron

:12:19.:12:24.

did, and was a big mistake. It was a mistake for the Prime Minister to

:12:24.:12:30.

spot light and comment on Jimmy Carr? It was a huge mistake. We

:12:30.:12:33.

have Ed Miliband now being statesmanlike about this, saying

:12:33.:12:36.

that politicians should not lecture. If there is a loophole, they have

:12:36.:12:42.

to deal with the loophole. If you look at the issue of MPs' expenses,

:12:42.:12:46.

it was all very legal. David Cameron claimed to have the

:12:46.:12:51.

wisteria cut from around his stream and had to pay the money back. I

:12:51.:12:56.

see no difference in terms of the morality. Was it a mistake for the

:12:56.:13:01.

Prime Minister to comment on Jimmy Carr? I think he may well regret it.

:13:01.:13:04.

They will now go after every Conservative donor and find out

:13:04.:13:08.

about their tax affairs. But it may not have been a mistake because you

:13:08.:13:12.

have to advance on two fronts. You have to make sure that the law

:13:12.:13:16.

prevents bad practice, but you also have to stigmatise bad behaviour.

:13:16.:13:20.

Because we know that the law will never get in advance of clever

:13:20.:13:24.

lawyers and accountants, who will be able to avoid tax. The law is

:13:24.:13:28.

not sufficient. You also have to declare that this kind of behaviour,

:13:28.:13:34.

even though it is legal and lawful, is immoral. How do you stop it? You

:13:34.:13:39.

stop it by saying that we should all pay the same percentage. I do

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not think Jimmy Carr would do it again because he has been

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stigmatised. If an accountant says to you, Michael, I have a way that

:13:50.:13:54.

is perfectly legal, has been approved by HMRC and will save you

:13:54.:13:58.

tens of thousands of pounds in tax compared to what you pay now, are

:13:58.:14:08.
:14:08.:14:08.

you saying you would say No? In my own case, absolutely. Why?

:14:08.:14:17.

Because... Because you would be found out. That is the problem.

:14:17.:14:26.

do invest in an ISA. That is tax free. That is a vehicle the

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Government provides. That is a not -- that is not a proper example.

:14:30.:14:34.

There are two cases. One is when your accountant says, I can find a

:14:34.:14:39.

way where you will end up paying 10% less tax. It is completely

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different where you say, we will put the money into some investment

:14:42.:14:51.

The part of the problem which Jim is alluding to is this, that the

:14:51.:14:56.

tax code is now so complicated. It doubled in size under Gordon Brown.

:14:56.:15:00.

It has got so many loopholes in it now and it's getting bigger under

:15:00.:15:05.

this Government, despite the promises of tax simplification. The

:15:05.:15:09.

more complicated it gets, the more rich people can go to very smart

:15:09.:15:16.

accountants who find loopholes. At the moment the Government finds one

:15:16.:15:26.

loophole and they will find another. It is not a justification for it. I

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think Michael, you are almost looking askance at him because he

:15:29.:15:34.

says if you earn a lot of money you caught to pay the right level of

:15:34.:15:39.

tax. And you shouldn't find these scams. Jimmy Carr, if he spent five

:15:39.:15:45.

minutes finding out what K2 was about he would find it a scafplt

:15:45.:15:53.

you put your money over there and they -- find it is a scam. You put

:15:53.:15:59.

your money over there and they lend you the money back. It's a fair

:15:59.:16:04.

point. The politicians, instead of moralising and picking on one

:16:04.:16:08.

individual, as David Cameron has done, all to close those loopholes.

:16:08.:16:14.

It's not a fair point. Politicians have responded to people who say

:16:14.:16:20.

let's encourage the film industry, let's encourage the theatre.

:16:20.:16:26.

Mentioning Jimmy Carr was a bit populist. No, art galleries. When

:16:26.:16:31.

they say put your money into these things and we will Lewis your tax

:16:31.:16:36.

bill, but then people abuse the system. That's appalling. Maybe

:16:36.:16:42.

politicians shouldn't be given tax breaks for their latest hobbies.

:16:42.:16:45.

You are absolutely right. The ultimate result of this will be

:16:45.:16:49.

that politicians will not be able to do things to promote things that

:16:49.:16:53.

they think are in the public interest. The Prime Minister's

:16:53.:17:00.

picked on Mr Carr, not on Mr Barlow. Are we in any doubt the Prime

:17:00.:17:06.

Minister's family who has gone through the most sophisticated

:17:06.:17:10.

inheritance tax planning? Are we in any doubt that Mr Cameron's father

:17:10.:17:15.

was involved in planning? There was one on Channel 4 News tonight on

:17:15.:17:19.

schemes that were designed to avoid taxes. Do you know, look, I don't

:17:19.:17:24.

know the details of the Cameron family taxes. It seems very

:17:24.:17:28.

dangerous. Well, I admit it's dangerous but I do believe we are

:17:28.:17:33.

talking about completely different things. I don't believe that people

:17:33.:17:37.

who plan inheritance sensibly so that they take advantage of their

:17:37.:17:43.

allowances there are on the same scale as those who avoid paying any

:17:43.:17:49.

tax at all by using schemes that have nothing to do with their

:17:49.:17:53.

schemes. I didn't need a find a scheme, as I've been married so

:17:53.:18:01.

many times I didn't have any money to pay. Should Mr Barlow be made to

:18:01.:18:06.

give back his OBE? The Prime Minister's been asked about Gary

:18:06.:18:13.

Barlow and he wants to move on. don't think he has the same

:18:13.:18:19.

accountant as Jimmy Carr do you? lips are sealed, guv. I think Jimmy

:18:19.:18:23.

Carr will be over the Moon that he's on the fronts page of the

:18:23.:18:31.

papers. I wouldn't like to be doing his next stand-up routine, although

:18:31.:18:35.

yours tonight was excellent. Good to see you.

:18:35.:18:43.

It may be late, too late to join the K2 tax avoidance scheme. Damn

:18:43.:18:48.

you Jimmy Carr! Caprice will be talking about the politics of

:18:48.:18:53.

beauty. For those who prefer much uglier rumours you can always show

:18:53.:19:03.

us your worst side on the Twitter, Looking interweb

:19:03.:19:06.

Site. Now back to the G20, and things are

:19:06.:19:09.

really hotting up down there! Come on, let's crack on with the show so

:19:09.:19:13.

Michael can whip on his leopard print Speedos and get down to the

:19:13.:19:15.

pool. Yes, this is the austerity- busting view that the Prime

:19:15.:19:18.

Minister's spin doctor didn't want him to be interviewed in front of

:19:18.:19:22.

and instead started snapping hacks sitting around the pool! Here's

:19:22.:19:28.

Senorita Mary Ann Sieghart with her poolside round-up from Los Cabos.

:19:28.:19:38.
:19:38.:19:51.

Viva Los Cabos and welcome to sunny Mexico. Yes, this is the side of

:19:51.:19:55.

the G20 summit that Number Ten didn't want you to see. Nap away,

:19:55.:20:05.
:20:05.:20:13.

Mr Cameron. I don't care who knows. It is odd people getting worked up

:20:13.:20:18.

about a bit of sun, sand and sea in Mexico when it's the rain in Spain

:20:18.:20:22.

and Greece that's getting people round here hot under the collar.

:20:22.:20:26.

Earlier this week the Greeks swore in their new PM while the British

:20:26.:20:33.

and Americans started getting pretty vocal for the need to for

:20:33.:20:37.

the Continentals to get their act together. The world is concerned

:20:37.:20:43.

about the slowing of growth that has taken place. A lot of attention

:20:43.:20:47.

has been centred on Europe. Now is the time, as we've discussed, to

:20:47.:20:56.

make sure that all of us join to do what's necessary to stabilise the

:20:56.:20:59.

world financial system. But like all family holidays everyone is

:20:59.:21:03.

getting on each other's nerves. The Greeks and the Germans can't agree

:21:03.:21:10.

on who is to pay for it. The French want to shell out more at the bar,

:21:10.:21:15.

not less, and everyone is fed one the Brits for trying to bag the

:21:15.:21:21.

best place by the pool. This crisis was originated in North America, we

:21:22.:21:27.

are not coming here to receive lessons from nobody. In fact it's

:21:27.:21:31.

been tequila slammers all round this week. David Cameron must have

:21:31.:21:37.

been thought he was served a writ when the Argentinian Prime Minister,

:21:37.:21:41.

Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, tried to stuff an envelope into his

:21:41.:21:50.

hands with the word mall vin nas into his hands -- Malvinas. I wants

:21:50.:21:53.

to make it clear that the people of the Falkland Islands have decided

:21:53.:21:58.

to hold a referendum about their future. If she believes in

:21:58.:22:01.

democracy, in self determination, she should respect the outcome of

:22:01.:22:04.

that referendum. I thought it was important to make that point and I

:22:04.:22:14.
:22:14.:22:15.

made that point with some vigour. The Prime Minister's not the only

:22:15.:22:19.

man who has been jetting off to sun-soaked resorts. Nick Clegg's

:22:19.:22:23.

been down the road in rye yo with the west rest of the world's

:22:23.:22:30.

leaders, or the ones not in Mexico, who've flown thousands of miles to

:22:30.:22:35.

combat climate change. Although Nick Clegg is getting worked up

:22:35.:22:39.

with Michael Gove's plans to scrap GCSEs at home. This is not a policy

:22:39.:22:43.

we agreed in the coalition Government. But on the exams system,

:22:43.:22:46.

we need to make sure that we constantly improve the exams system

:22:47.:22:51.

that so that it is rigorous and stretching. But we need to design

:22:51.:22:57.

an exams system for the future, not turn the clock back to the past.

:22:57.:23:00.

is iron take the man left holding the fort here is Foreign Secretary

:23:00.:23:04.

William Hague, who was left to answer questions about today's

:23:04.:23:14.
:23:14.:23:15.

doctors strike. My God, there's my The Prime Minister once told us he

:23:15.:23:21.

could sum up his priority in three letters - NHS. Isn't it more like

:23:21.:23:31.
:23:31.:23:31.

LOL? It obviously took a long time to think of that one! I have set

:23:31.:23:36.

out the achievements of the Government on the NHS, even the

:23:36.:23:41.

King's Fund in its latest report, which has sometimes been quoted by

:23:41.:23:46.

the opposition, say there is no evidence of a decline in service

:23:46.:23:50.

quality or performance. William Hague waited 15 years or you could

:23:50.:23:54.

say a lifetime to stand in for the Prime Minister at PMQs. He

:23:54.:23:59.

certainly relished it, as did Tory MPs behind him, who displayed a

:23:59.:24:05.

certain whistfulness for what might have been. There's a lots of dis

:24:05.:24:08.

satisfaction among Tory backbenchers, because they don't

:24:08.:24:13.

trust Cameron, and they trust their coalition partners a lot less.

:24:13.:24:17.

Given the appalling behaviour of Liberal Democrats Cabinet members

:24:17.:24:24.

in not supporting the Secretary of State for culture, media and sport,

:24:24.:24:31.

would my preferred Deputy Prime Minister arrange a divorce from the

:24:31.:24:34.

Yellow Peril so that we can govern with Conservative policies as a

:24:34.:24:41.

minority Government? There was one person this week who

:24:41.:24:46.

managed to look effortlessly exotic without raising any hackles here.

:24:46.:24:49.

Aung San Suu Kyi showed our fractious politicians that

:24:49.:24:54.

sometimes to get yourself heard you don't always have to shout the

:24:54.:24:59.

loudest. So many hills remain to be climbed, chasms to be briged,

:24:59.:25:03.

obstacles to be bridged. Our own determination can get us so far.

:25:03.:25:08.

The support of the people of Britain and of people's s around

:25:08.:25:12.

the world can get us so much further.

:25:13.:25:17.

Dignity, selflessness, courage, patience, why can't we have

:25:17.:25:25.

politicians like that? Mary Ann Sieghart and Mariachi

:25:25.:25:34.

Mexeteca, all the way from Los Cabos. In Hampton. You didn't think

:25:34.:25:41.

we could afford to go to Mexico; Is Michael Gove right to want to

:25:41.:25:45.

return to a more rigorous exam system? This was a leaked document.

:25:45.:25:50.

I didn't hear what Michael said in Parliament. If it is something that

:25:50.:25:54.

smacks of the 1950s Michael will be after it. The education leaving age

:25:54.:26:00.

goes up next year to 17. Two years to 18. It was policy I introduced

:26:00.:26:07.

when I was Education Secretary. But the GCSEs is almost like a school

:26:07.:26:12.

leaving exam. We wanted kids to stay on at school after 16 and they

:26:12.:26:17.

left in droves. Now that the education leaving age is going up,

:26:17.:26:23.

and I agree with Ken baker on this, there's a case for having some kind

:26:23.:26:27.

of testing at 14 rather than this 16, which was there because that

:26:27.:26:32.

was the school leaving age. If that's part of his plan here, I

:26:32.:26:36.

would be very interested in it. If it is just the rigour of the 1950s,

:26:36.:26:41.

which wasn't that successful be you look at the research from the NFER,

:26:41.:26:46.

then I don't think it will take us forward. It has certainly created a

:26:46.:26:54.

bust-up with the Liberal Democrats. People want to see more rigour in

:26:54.:26:59.

our exam system. I don't think rigour should be associated with

:26:59.:27:04.

the 1950s. But people are worried that there'll be one exam and

:27:04.:27:08.

poorer kids will is it that and the more rigorous one will be the more

:27:08.:27:12.

middle class exam. I think the world does divide into several tier

:27:12.:27:16.

es. I think the way in which we pretended we can have a one-tier

:27:16.:27:22.

system in education has been a part of our problem. We have

:27:22.:27:24.

comprehensivised education so we probably haven't done the best by

:27:25.:27:28.

the people who are most challenged in education and we haven't done

:27:28.:27:32.

the best by those people who could excel in education. One size

:27:32.:27:37.

doesn't fit all. It has the potential to be an omnishambles,

:27:37.:27:42.

because it got out in a newspaper. Mr Gove was summoned to the House

:27:42.:27:46.

to make a statement, which he had to do and give away more I think

:27:46.:27:52.

than he wanted to at this stage. And Mr Clegg pops up from Rio to

:27:52.:28:01.

say, "I don't know anything about this." It was extraordinary. A Lib

:28:01.:28:05.

Dem junior Minister, in that department, that they haven't been

:28:05.:28:09.

discussing this as a coalition. got out because Michael Government

:28:09.:28:13.

had lunch with Simon Heffer, of the Mail, and told him what he was

:28:13.:28:22.

planning to do. No such thing as a free lunch. I think it was a Con's

:28:22.:28:27.

cock-up. I know it doesn't need legislation. The Home Secretary

:28:27.:28:32.

said you couldn't have such a major change without parliamentary

:28:32.:28:35.

approval. You have to say that anything that's announced by the

:28:35.:28:40.

Government may not get through. I think the chances of it getting

:28:40.:28:45.

through must be 30%. If Labour was to put down a motion saying we

:28:45.:28:50.

don't want this to happen, the question twheen be what do the Lib

:28:50.:28:54.

Dems do? If they just abstain it gets through. They have to vote

:28:54.:29:00.

against it. I'm not thinking about votes but what will happen with

:29:00.:29:05.

mature consideration. One thing after another gets announced and

:29:05.:29:10.

then U-turned and it disappears. Mr Gove looking like leadership

:29:11.:29:17.

material? Great for the Labour Party. Do you think he will be the

:29:17.:29:23.

Ed Miliband of the party? I don't think that would work. He doesn't

:29:23.:29:27.

have broad appeal but he knows what he is about and what he wants.

:29:27.:29:37.
:29:37.:29:42.

He must be ahead of George Osborne in the leadership popularity stakes.

:29:42.:29:46.

I do not think they George wants it, whereas Michael Gove is a serious

:29:46.:29:54.

candidate for the future. I think Michael Gove is the only one still

:29:54.:30:02.

standing. The industrial action by doctors, did you back it? I have

:30:02.:30:07.

said this before, I think trade unions are entitled to try to

:30:07.:30:15.

defend their pension rights. I also think... Is that yes? Yes, in the

:30:15.:30:20.

sense that I do not take the view that U2, the Daily Mail,

:30:20.:30:23.

practically all of the press, shock, horror, somebody has taken

:30:23.:30:30.

industrial action. I could see it in your eyes. We were just waiting

:30:30.:30:36.

for you to drown him. The floundering was going on and on.

:30:36.:30:39.

is interesting that Labour is supporting people who go on strike

:30:39.:30:46.

with average pensions of �68,000 a year. I did not say Labour, said I

:30:46.:30:52.

was. It was hard to see what the point was. Nothing happened. Move

:30:52.:30:59.

on. It was pointless. Frankly, it has brought a lot of obloquy on the

:30:59.:31:03.

doctors, which is a shame, because they do terrific things and most of

:31:03.:31:07.

them would not do anything to harm patients. I do not think it has.

:31:07.:31:10.

There is this argument that the British are against anyone who

:31:10.:31:15.

takes industrial action. I am not so sure. I also am not sure that

:31:15.:31:18.

the British people do not understand it doctors are saying,

:31:18.:31:22.

we reached a deal on pensions. One of the reasons why the cost to

:31:22.:31:28.

public pensions is going down is because it save the Exchequer �13

:31:28.:31:32.

billion. They are putting increased contributions in, and they have a

:31:32.:31:38.

deal that if anything unforeseen comes in, to exceed the cost, it

:31:38.:31:42.

comes entirely from member contributions. There is a

:31:42.:31:46.

negotiation going on. Industrial action - you should be proud of the

:31:46.:31:50.

legislation introduced in the 1980s because a ballot for industrial

:31:50.:31:54.

action has to take place. A union that has got a certain point in

:31:54.:31:57.

negotiations but cannot get any further, really the next stage is

:31:58.:32:03.

to have an industrial action ballot. It is part of the democracy that

:32:03.:32:08.

Aung San Suu Kyi is trying to introduce into Burma. You should be

:32:08.:32:10.

ashamed of the GP contract you introduced that enabled them to

:32:11.:32:15.

spend less time with patients, get more money, and now they have

:32:15.:32:20.

pensions which up 80% financed by public sector. The most significant

:32:20.:32:24.

thing is that Alan has gone from trying to avoid answering the

:32:24.:32:26.

question to becoming an articulate spokesman for the case of the

:32:26.:32:35.

doctors, almost in the course of two minutes in a TV studio. We have

:32:35.:32:38.

had the new Prime Minister in Greece, as you were saying at the

:32:38.:32:42.

head of the show. We had the G20 in Mexico and a statement there.

:32:42.:32:46.

Surprise, surprise, they kicked the issue into the next summit of the

:32:46.:32:53.

European Union next week. Are we closer to a resolution? No, because

:32:53.:32:56.

the Euro was fundamentally flawed. It is not about one fixer or

:32:56.:33:01.

another, 100 billion here or there, but about the thing not working. It

:33:01.:33:05.

is about trying to put together economies which are quite different,

:33:05.:33:09.

at different stages of development with different capabilities all

:33:09.:33:14.

under one exchange rate. The wonderful irony of the euro is not

:33:14.:33:17.

that the exchange rate is wrong for some of the countries, it is wrong

:33:17.:33:22.

for all of them. It is as wrong for Germany as it is wrong for Greece.

:33:22.:33:25.

The exchange rate for Germany ought to be much higher. It ought to be

:33:25.:33:31.

more difficult for them to export, easier to import. It is a shambles.

:33:31.:33:36.

Until either Europe becomes one country, which is quite unlikely,

:33:36.:33:40.

or countries begin to leave the euro, it cannot be resolved.

:33:40.:33:44.

problem is, right or wrong, that the continued inability of Europe's

:33:44.:33:48.

leaders to resolve the matter means that it becomes a near permanent

:33:49.:33:55.

drag on all the economies. Yes, and there is no sign of a solution.

:33:55.:33:59.

Germany have elections next year. Helmut Kohl said that monetary

:33:59.:34:04.

union without fiscal union is a castle in the air. It looks as if

:34:05.:34:09.

there is a long-term plan that looks very much like fiscal union.

:34:09.:34:19.

Right now, the castle is dropping to earth. In terms of leaving the

:34:19.:34:22.

euro, the Greeks do not want to leave, and the only way they can go

:34:22.:34:25.

as if they want to leave because they have a veto on changing the

:34:25.:34:29.

treaty. I think they may leave none the less.

:34:29.:34:32.

Now, Mona Lisa's eyes, Cleopatra's nose, Alan Johnson's complexion,

:34:32.:34:35.

Michael Portillo's lips... Great beauty has taken many forms

:34:35.:34:40.

throughout history. And Michael may well be the face that launched a

:34:40.:34:44.

thousand steam trains, but will he still be considered the ideal in a

:34:44.:34:48.

hundred years' time? Or even by the end of tonight's show? And at what

:34:48.:34:52.

point does the pressure to look good become nothing but a burden?

:34:52.:34:56.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but for one week only,

:34:56.:35:06.
:35:06.:35:16.

we've decided to put it in the # Could you be the most beautiful

:35:16.:35:21.

girl in the world?. # It is Ladies' Day at Ascot, which

:35:21.:35:25.

means all eyes turn to the thoroughbred beauty is in the

:35:25.:35:29.

stands. In order to keep up appearances, Ascot has tightened

:35:29.:35:34.

its dress code, with racecourse police deployed to prevent crimes

:35:34.:35:38.

against fashion, such as strapless tops and fascinators. Watch out,

:35:38.:35:46.

Kate. So how damaging is the pressure to look beautiful? As his

:35:46.:35:49.

-- as headmistress has warned against the sexualisation of

:35:49.:35:53.

schoolchildren, Kim car - and is accused of sending confusing

:35:53.:35:57.

messages to young girls. And as cosmetic surgery becomes more

:35:57.:36:02.

commonplace, does it matter if implants are not toxic but are more

:36:02.:36:07.

likely to burst? So, is the ideal of beauty making us a danger on to

:36:07.:36:16.

ourselves, or has it always been this way? Caprice joins us. How

:36:16.:36:25.

important his duty to you? To me? Are you joking. I made a fortune on

:36:25.:36:32.

beauty. Let's call a spade a spade. Obviously, my career has progressed,

:36:32.:36:38.

but to start with, beauty was everything. Is it always a blessing,

:36:38.:36:44.

or sometimes a curse? Initially, a blessing, because I made a fortune

:36:44.:36:49.

just being a pretty girl. But when I started my business it was a

:36:49.:36:52.

curse because there is a stereotype. She was a model, she looks like

:36:52.:36:57.

that, we do not think the brand will work, we will not invest,

:36:57.:37:02.

forget it. It took a few years to establish credibility and to show

:37:02.:37:06.

that, I do not care what you think of me but I have the numbers here,

:37:06.:37:13.

so you have to take my brand. And I can give you free marketing as well.

:37:13.:37:18.

Because you were well known? Exactly. That is tremendous power.

:37:18.:37:24.

Has the view of society of duty changed over time? I think now it

:37:24.:37:29.

is almost obsessive. -- review of beauty. When I first started, it

:37:29.:37:34.

was not quite like this. And now the media and everyone around us is

:37:34.:37:41.

obsessed by a celebrity and beauty. That must mean young girls are

:37:41.:37:46.

under more pressure than they were even when you were younger? Young

:37:46.:37:51.

girls? Try older girls. Are you joking? Everyone, and it gets

:37:52.:37:57.

harder when you get older, trust me! It does not seem that is going

:37:57.:38:03.

to get any easier. We are more and more looks obsessed all the time.

:38:03.:38:09.

It is a celebrity beauty obsessed culture. I am finding that

:38:09.:38:16.

daughters of my friends, who are 18 to 20 years old, getting to want to

:38:16.:38:20.

change the way they look. These are 20 year-olds. I am thinking, you

:38:20.:38:25.

have not stopped growing! What are you thinking? That is something

:38:25.:38:34.

that is quite new. What does beauty mean to you, Michael? Yeah, Michael.

:38:34.:38:39.

I wanted to ask this, I think it must be tough because not only in

:38:39.:38:42.

business people must doubt there you are up to it, but what about

:38:42.:38:45.

personal relationships? How do you know whether somebody values you

:38:45.:38:51.

for yourself or just for your beauty? I am going to be really

:38:51.:38:58.

candid. If somebody - I am sure that their motivation was not 100%

:38:58.:39:02.

all of the time. I am OK with that, just as long as you make me happy

:39:02.:39:06.

and you are good to me. If your motivation is because you want to

:39:06.:39:10.

be standing next to me and get in a picture, knock yourself out. If I

:39:10.:39:15.

am happy in this relationship, then that is OK. I am not going to marry

:39:15.:39:22.

you, but... We will go out for a while and I am OK with that. This

:39:22.:39:26.

stuff that has been happening at Ascot is not about beauty. Ugly and

:39:26.:39:32.

disabled people are welcome. It is actually about taste. If you have a

:39:32.:39:36.

flabby tummy, or wobbly legs, we do not want to see them. It is about

:39:36.:39:43.

taste, not beauty. I was at Ascot last year and it was horrendous.

:39:43.:39:51.

What did you do? People were so appallingly dressed. Coming from an

:39:51.:39:55.

American, Ascot is English tradition. It is about elegance,

:39:55.:40:00.

about beauty. This is what we always thought it was. Elegance,

:40:00.:40:08.

rather than beauty. Only people can be very elegant. Do looks matter in

:40:08.:40:14.

politics? Yes, they do. I have always found my duty a blessing.

:40:14.:40:21.

They do matter. Why did you not become leader? If you go back to

:40:22.:40:29.

Nick Clegg, he was more popular than Winston Churchill. And his

:40:29.:40:34.

looks... The same with Cameron and Blair. But it does not get you

:40:35.:40:44.

through. Tony Blair's looks didn't matter. In America, Obama's looks

:40:44.:40:51.

mattered, and Mitt Romney's looks also matter. But remember, they are

:40:51.:40:56.

very good speakers as well. It is the look, but they are good

:40:56.:40:59.

speakers as well. Do you think it was your looks that kept you from

:40:59.:41:07.

becoming leaders of your party? were too beautiful to succeed.

:41:07.:41:12.

both chicken out. Was it an issue when you were running. It was part

:41:12.:41:17.

of your image, the handsome young man, new generation of the

:41:18.:41:22.

Conservative Party. Let's face it, even now, Andrew, you do not want

:41:22.:41:30.

to go on television looking hideous. I manage it every week. He is

:41:30.:41:36.

searching for a compliment! We have to say good night. Is that it?

:41:36.:41:41.

That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because it's Book

:41:41.:41:44.

Club night at Annabel's and it's Michael's turn to choose our

:41:44.:41:49.

reading matter. Which can mean only one thing - Fifty Shades of Grey.

:41:49.:41:54.

Again! But we leave you tonight with yet more evidence that for all

:41:54.:41:56.

their expensively educated country suppers and overpriced stationary,

:41:56.:42:01.

the Camerons really are a terrible judge of character. Nighty-night,

:42:01.:42:11.
:42:11.:42:12.

don't let your embarrassing friends Who is your favourite member of

:42:12.:42:22.
:42:22.:42:35.

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