12/07/2012 This Week

As London gears up for the Olympics, the MPs gear up for the long summer

break. Team Cameron struggles to control its backbenches. The Prime

Minister struggles to control his temper. Olympic heavyweight and Sky

News Political Editor Adam Boulton hits top form. Team GB have high

hopes of the coalition in the muck- spreading and digging yourself into

a hole events. No Olympic treatment for the

analing population as the Government announces new plans for

social care. How will it be funded? And will it

ever happen? Gold medal broadcaster glor ya

Hunniford is on the podium. I'll be certainly cheering on Team GB. But

I'll tell you something, Britain won't win any medals for the care

of the elderly. Something has to be done urgently. And controlling your

emotions. Andy Murray burst into tears after losing the final and

voices are raised in Westminster. Star of stage and screens, Stephen

Mangan keeps a stiff upper lip. an actor, it's my job to convince

you that I believe what I'm saying. I'm so pleased to be here. Let's

Evening all. Welcome to This Week. Tonight, we exclusively reveal the

latest sport to qualify for the Olympics. It's a cross between the

hurdles and the marathon. First, you have to survive the queues at

Heathrow border control without dying of thirst, hunger or boredom.

Not many do. For those that make it, you next have to work out how to

get into London, since the road from the airport is closed. And the

handful that do make it to the stadium then have to stand in line

behind the terrorists, who will be out in force now it's public

knowledge we don't have enough security guards. Anybody who can

make it through all that really deserves a gold medal. Today,

Theresa May, the Home Secretary, who put the omni in omnishambles,

decided, despite assurances from those nice security folk at Group 4,

that everything was going exactly to plan, to call in military

reinforcements. Just as well the Olympics aren't next year, when we

won't have an Army to mobilise. Oh well, the Army might be smaller

than at anytime since 1750. At least to Waterloo, Tobruk, Normandy

and Helmand, thanks to Ms May, it will soon be adding Westfield

Shopping Centre, Stratford, to its long list of proud campaign medals

Lions, led by donkeys indeed. Speaking of those who couldn't

organise a This Week end-of-term party in a Blue Nun winery, I'm

joined on the sofa tonight by two men who are only here because Pete

Waterman cancelled his Hyde Park concert, the Jason Donovan and Rick

Astley of late night political chat. I speak, of course, of

#manontheleft Alan 'AJ' Johnson and #sadmanonatrain Michael 'choo choo'

Moment of the week, Michael? Apparently during the course of the

week, the Prime Minister engaged in an animated and angry way backbench

Conservative Member of Parliament called Jessie Norman over House of

Lords reform which Jessie Norman had opposed in fact he'd been an

organiser of the opposition. I would also say that Jessie Norman

is to my way of thinking one of the most thoughtful, intelligent and

gracious men I've ever met. He did play a major part I think in

exposing that the Bill was an absolute shambles and not a Bill

that a Conservative Government ought to have anything to do with

whatsoever. So it was to me a moment of great disappointment that

the Prime Minister would seek to engage him in this angry way and we

are going to come to anger later in the programme. Indeed. I think I

speak from personal experience, that aerpbg is what you later

regret very much indeed. I should pount out the Prime Minister

dismissed this story as tittle- tattle which is, we regard it as

Westminster language for confirmation that it happened. Alan,

your moment? The election of the first woman to lead the TUC in

nearly 150 years, Francis O'Grady. When I first page a union official

when I joined the Post Office, it was part of the Civil Service, it

had the marriage bar, so if a woman was married, she couldn't be

promoted to a position above what they call grade five. Is that

right?! They just got rid of it. When I became active in the Civil

Service union it was still there. The union movement clung on to this

marriage bar which shows you what Francis O'Grady had to overcome.

She's great. A formidable woman. Very. The TUC catching up with the

Scottish TUC who had a woman leader in the 1880s. I bow to your see

peerior knowledge - again! Many people say that, especially

after I slip them a few bob. While I may be young for us young Turks

ever to imagine a time when we might need help around the house or

even with the Lords under threat to go into another kind of residential

care home, it seems we all need to start thinking about old age soon.

The Government's White Paper on social care put off some of the big

decisions on the spending review some years away. We turn to the

ever radiant glory ya Hunniford who spent some time living in care

homes as part of a BBC season of programmes on older people. She

also spent a few days with Ivy, nearly one of the two million

pensioners living in poverty, to see how she manages on a disposable

income of �3 a day. This is a Take of the Week.

Food shopping on so little money is a weekly ordeal for Ivy. Consumer

champion Gloria has a plan. In my head I thought I would make a good

spaghetti sauce so I'll buy mince steak, steak, onions, mushrooms and

I would be able to make her spaghetti for tonight and spread

that oufplt onions are 82p which is quite a lot. The financial

realities of Ivy's life are proving more difficult than Gloria imagined.

This one is quite expensive. I couldn't do it. Even using two

days' money I couldn't do it. It was so expensive. It was �5 for any

kind of, you know, decent meat. So �5 would have been almost two days'

worth. Then I was going to buy the onions and mushrooms which would

have been �8 and I thought, I can't spend �8 on just the meat. It's

shocking. It's estimated that 1 million pensioners are malnourished

and it's been a wake-up call for Gloria.

I don't know how you do it actually. I don't. I don't. I came here

hoping that maybe I may be able to make some tweak for Ivy and, in a

way, I think in reverse, she's shown me so much today.

And Gloria now joins us in our little old folks home here at

Westminster. I didn't want to say that! The people have rumbled it!

You have done this BBC series which has been very well received, but

were you surprised by what you found? Well, I was humbled, shocked

and, as I said, I think Ivy taught me more than I was actually able to

give her. I didn't realise that people actually had to try and live

on just over �3 disposable income, not just for food, for clothes,

cleaning materials, to brush your teeth, whatever. Ivy, bless her,

she would take her money that came in once a weak, she would buy her

electric and gas card and when that ran out, she had to go and live

with her daugter in the cold weather because there was nothing

else she could do -- daughter. There wasn't time to say Ivy had

abuse in her family, she was illiterate so she couldn't read the

bills, very honourably trying to pay off her debts, but there were

so many problems. There is a bigger issue here because, in the end, we

were able to rehouse Ivy within a week, so I was able to identify

very quickly that she was living in a privately rented house that was

way beyond what she was receiving from the Government by way of her

rent allowance. So she had no disposable income really. It's not

because it was us going in with a television crew. The reality is

that the flat was there for her, in fact there were two flats available

that day, but she had lost the will to live. She says in the

documentary she wants to die and commit suicide a lot and admitted

that to her family for the first time. But the reality and the

bigger question is, who is going to be the catalyst to say to people,

look, this help is available but you are so beaten down sadly in her

on life that everything I said to her like, have you ever asked the

Council for Another house, oh, no point, a four or five year waiting

list, have you thought about getting a job, no point. Everything

was no point so she was just so beaten so she needed a catalyst, as

indeed a lot of other people in the documentary needed to get her out

of that black hole. You spent time with those pensioners who have to

count every penny? Every penny, every crumb. And have nothing spare

and are short at the end of every week. You will know there is a

feeling abroad, particularly in these tough economic times among

younger pem that most old people have never had it so good? --

people. I can't accept that, because you only have to lack at

the facts and figures that the BBC programmes have praused and you

only have to look at the information coming out of proposed

White Papers about how we have to help people who're getting older.

The reality is, we are all living longer and you may be surprised to

know that 25% of all the babies born today will live to be over 100.

As much as 25%? At the moment, there are 12,500 people over 100

but 25% of babies born now will live to over 100. So it shows you

the problem in this country. There are so many issues about the

elderly. I think a lot of it comes back to attitude. Attitude to how

people age themselves and their attitude to keeping themselves busy

or active or healthy, also attitude towards the elderly because I

believe that the elderly in this country feel invisible. Compared to

other countries, Spain, Italy, France, you know, the grandparents

are the linchpin of the family, their opinion is sought and valued.

That's what I think we are missing in this country, it's culture.

culture as much as economics. Absolutely. Michael, what Gloria is

saying is fascinating. The broad outlines we have known for quite a

long time what's happening, we see the dem graph ibs, yet Government

after Government, of all political persuasions has failed and I

suggest people probably feel this latest White Paper is part of that

failure? First of all, let me say, I think the thing's going to get

much worse because we are going to see quite shortly 50% of people of

pensionable age being dependent on means tested assistance because

very few people now are saving for private pensions or have pensions

other than the basic state retirement pension which doesn't

lift you above the poverty line so you have to have extra help.

Increasing numbers of people will be in that position and living for

longer, so they'll be for decades in poverty. They'll be much poorer

than they were in work, poorer than people who're still in work and

poorer than people in other European countries. I think that's

going to be a very difficult position to sustain politically or

socially. By contrast, the thing that there was the most debate

about in the Government's plans this week was about something

completely different which was about how people going into care

homes can be allowed to keep hold of the houses they own. I'm sorry

to say that I'm contemptuous of this proposal because not in all

cases but in many cases what this is actually about is not the care

of the elderly but guaranteeing the inheritance of middle class

children of their middle class parents' properties. For the

Government to be thinking ability how the welfare state could be made

bigger under pressure from middle class newspapers like the Daily

Telegraph and the Daily Mail, beggars belief. That was something

that frightened Labour, wasn't it? There was talk about death taxes

and so on and nothing again was done? Michael's right, there are

two issues here, the issue about how we deal with pensioners in the

future and how we ensure everyone has an occupational pension which

was a large part in the past as to why the state pension was so low

because people had occupational pensions, they are disappearing,

there is a consensus how to deal with that, raise the state pension

gradually, make sure people are covered for the future. On adult

social care, there is a consensus emerging from the Dilnot Report but

what Andrew Lansley failed to do - he did a lot of good things, saying

there should be an expectation of a consistent service around the

country, not the postcode lottery we have at the moment. Which is

very good. And more help for carers, but he didn't take the crunch issue.

Michael disagrees I think. He's got a point about some aspects of this,

but the statistics are very clear, Dilnot showed that you are going to

have so many people in the future who're unable to, who the NHS say

you are fit to go back to your home but you need help to deal with

hygiene and food. There is no consistent way as to how that help

will be provided. May I be devil's advocate. How can we put billions

of pounds into overseas aid, which I'm for, obviously to a point, but

how can we put all that money into overseas aid and not look after the

people who have worked very hard, paid taxes and national insurance,

saved their money, they haven't bumed off the state or been sitting

taking handout, they've actually worked very hard. Another example,

I know a family where they had tailored the house toward their

disabled daughter, yet when the last parent went into an elderly

home, that house "by law" had to be sold and that girl had to go on and

live in another house for the disabled. That is a good example

for your argument... It's the truth. But there are plenty of middle

class families here looking for help with social care living in

homes that are worth a lot of money and we seem to give priority to

their ability to pass that money on or that home on as an inheritance.

You have worked hard for what you have got, do Younesly want to give

it up to the Government when you It up to the Government when you

get old? People say we save for a rainy day, and that rainy day has

come. There's a dignity about being able to live on your own resources

without living on the state, if you can do that. No-one is sucting that

the state should pay for all this. There was a Royal Commission, the

report by the late Derek Wanless and then Dilnot. The consensus you

have to share the cost, if you can afford it. They didn't put a

ceiling at �35,000, which is a reasonable amount for young people

to ring-fence for their future but today the possibility is up to

�100,000. These are really important problems. We are all

saying they are going to get worse. When you hear politicians talk

about this, what do you think? Since I've lived with Ivy for the

four days, in a care home for four days, it has sharply brought it

home to me first of all how some people are having to live on the

breadline and below it. I personally have ring-fenced my

money so that if and when I have to have help, I hope to avoid the

elderly care home. It could be a 10-star luxury hotel, but I would

rather be at home. I've planned for mine. Maybe the way forward is a

type of planning. I thought the Dilnot Report was great, when it

said this magical figure of �35,000 as a cap would be a reasonable

figure. But it is magical, because we don't know where the taxpayer's

money is coming from. Maybe take the overseas aid and apportion it

differently. Gloria, thank you. Now, it's late, but it's Friday

tomorrow, so you may as well finish the bottle. Oh, you have already?

Well, open another, because coming up, actor Stephen Mangan is

displaying his emotional intelligence in the face of our

tired and emotional incontinence. And for those who know how it feels

to cry like a baby, don't forget we ignore all your comments on The

Twitter, The Fleecebook and the good old missionary position

Interweb. Now, as we struggle through the

wettest drought on record, this interminable rain is causing the

country severe problems: rotten food, rotten flooding. But most

devastating of all - which nobody has yet bothered to mention - but

hasn't escaped our notice, look what it's doing to Michael's quiff!

LAUGHTER Luckily we've found a break in the weather, and sent our

very own ray of sunshine, Sky News's Adam Boulton, down to the

allotments to check on his produce and give us his round-up of the

We must all cultivate our gardens. The French President may well have

reminded David Cameron of voluntary's famous words. At --

Voltaire's famous words. Whether they opt for Corfu, Las

Vegas or stay at home, they will have plenty of time to till the sod.

But the recent wet weather has blighted just about everything.

Vegetables, butterflies, and, well, Time was when the coalition was

young and fresh, when the seeds of change were sewn, and David Cameron

promised Nick Clegg he too would dig for progress. And now comes the

harvest. A fresh crop of Lords reform for the Lib Dem leader to

serve up to Parliament. At the heart of this Bill, Mr Speaker, is

the vision of a House of Lords which is more modern, more

representative and more legitimate. A chamber fit for the 21 century.

Nick Clegg probably reckoned on fierce attack from the opposition.

But not the volley of "friendly fire", raspberries, rotten tomatoes

and the rest from the coalition's own Tory MPs. It is a tuney measure.

It is an unwelcome measure and it will do far more harm than good.

Many of us fear that by electing the second chamber, by gives it the

greater elect Massey he's talking about, we will end up creating a

rival to this chamber, rather than a revising chamber that we all want

to see. Why don't we all vote against House of Lords reform

tomorrow and then we will end the sad unmourned life as coalition. We

can have a general election, and a Conservative Government.

As debate began, it was getting obvious there was a new unholy

coalition of more than 100 rebel Tory MPs and Labour who simply

wouldn't have it. Without a timetable motion, Lords reform

would never reach the surface. An angry David Cameron pulled the Bill,

reportedly beetroot red as he confronted the rebel leader, Jesse

Norman. We understand it was fisticuffs in the lobby with the

Member for Hereford and South Hertfordshire. Tax cuts for million

airs, double dip recession, U-turn after U-turn after U-turn, isn't

the truth he didn't just lose the confidence of his party last night.

He's losing the confidence of the country?

An easy Question Time cricketry for Ed Miliband, leaving David Cameron

with a tricky problem of how to appease his own rebels and the

Liberal Democrats. His solution - one more more modest effort at

Lords reform in the autumn, but in if that's block he won't go on with

no end in sight, and Lords reform will go back on the scrap heap. All

of which is big kudos for Ed Miliband. But nobody thinks the

coalition is going to break up over this, and some Labour supporters

are wondering if it is quite so clever to block the best chance in

50 years of getting rid of the Meanwhile it was pitch forks at

dawn as the Shadow Chancellor demanded that the Chancellor

retract his suggestion that he, Ed Balls, had somehow been caught up

in the Barclays LIBOR scandal. any Government Minister from the

last Government ever encourage you to lean on Barclays or any other

bank to lower the LIBOR submissions? Absolutely not.

Balls ever ask you... No. Or any other Government Minister?

Following, that even some Tory MPs think Mr Osborne should apologise.

Fat chance. There was an apology of sorts, however, from Marcus age us

-- Marcus Agius, the outgoing chairman of Barclays Bank. He

informed MPs that, after all, Bob Diamond would only be taking �2

million of his �20 million golden goodbye, and B, that it was

absolutely Diamond Bob's own decision to walk the plank. He was,

he was not in a good player, as you can imagine. You were handing him a

loaded revolver went you? conversation was not long. He asked

for time to talk to his family. what happens 2010 season of mellow

fruitfulness arrives? Well, Nick Clegg at best can look forward to a

mildewed serving of Lords reform. And even that may be enough to give

David Cameron the collie wobbles as he tries to deadhead his Cabinet.

But hey, the Olympics are going to be a success, and Tony Blair's

clambered back on board the Labour bandwagon. MPs are back in

September. And until then, goodbye and good gardening.

Worzel Gummidge, or was it Adam Boulton in the allotments at

Vauxhall City farm. We are joined by Miranda Green again. Welcome

back. House of Lords reform. How big is the shambles for Clegg and

the coalition? Well, it is serious for Nick Clegg, because in order to

carry on in the coalition until 2015, as promised, to have a big

win on one of your own priorities like House of Lords reform would be

enormously helpful. Without it it is sort of bayonets fixed marching

against driving rain until the general election, so it is pretty

tough for him if it goes down. But they've decided to give David

Cameron the summer to try to quell the rebellion on his own side, Mike

compromises and see where we get to in the autumn. It depends on the

Labour Party. Why do I get the feeling that this Lord reform is

more important for Mr Clegg than for his party? Well, that's an

interesting way of putting it. With any leader there's a legacy issue

isn't there? But I think it is important to Lib Dems. It is

important to the rank and file. Many people join the Liberal

Democrat party because they are passionately interested in the

political system and who it operates properly. But I think, as

I said, It is more important to him than his party? If you have this

extraordinary opportunity to be part of government after decades as

a minority opposition party... you've lost the AV referendum.

you've lost the AV referendum, you want to come away with something

that you've made a huge difference to the nation's political life.

What's the significance of the Tory rebellion? Well, not many Prime

Ministers have to see 100 of their members of Parliament deifying the

whip on something that's declared as being essential to the

Government. 91, almost 100. 110 if you count the abstentions. Quite

right. But on the other hand not many Prime Ministers find

themselves backing a piece of legislation which their

backbenchers can't believe they really back. This was the nature of

the confrontation with Jesse Norman, that he had implyed if the Bill was

brought down it would be doing the Prime Minister a favour. The Prime

Minister objected to this line of art. But I'm afraid his objection

hasn't led to most of us to believe that it was not true. The Prime

Minister's heart could not have been in this Bill. The Prime

Minister is now saying maybe if a smaller proportion were legislated,

that might pass later in the year. But I would have thought the

problem for most Conservatives is not the proportion that's elected,

it's the manner of the election. These regional lists are anathema

to Conservatives, because they seem to give all the power to parties.

What you are doing is replacing a House of Lords at the moment which

for all its faults, which are many, at sleest full of really

interesting, independent-minded people, drawn from all walks of

life. You are replacing that with up to 80% of people who are simply

there because of their party apparatchiks. Labour has always

wanted or wanted for a long time, yourself included Alan, an elected

House of Lords. It is within its grasp now. But if it plays the

procedural card, it won't get it. think first of all, reflecting over

the summer, if I was Clegg and Cameron and I wanted to get it

through, it's been Tory party policy since at least Michael

Howard, in their 2005 manifesto. They should offer a referendum. The

thargt all three parties had it in their manifesto makes it more

necessary to have a referendum. -- the argument that all these parties

had it in their manifesto makes it more necessary to have a referendum.

The worst thing here, we know we are going to have a problem with

the Lords. If you send it to the Lords and it hasn't been properly

examined properly in the Commons, it comes back. I don't agree with

Michael on this. George Young pointed out an incredible statistic.

75% of the Lords were appointed by five people. Five individuals.

Prime Ministers. And as for a list system, it is semi open, the public

can vote for a party if they wish, for an individual on the party list,

if they wish, or for an independent. 14% of the current House of Lords

has to be male, because it's a But in your heart of hearts, do you

really expect the summer to make any difference because the Tory MPs

I've spoken to, they are up with it, they've got rebellion, you know, as

one Tory MP said to me, it's adultery, a bit difficult to first

time you do it, once you get if hang of it, it's dead easy? Yes,

well they may feel that. They do. think this is important because

what we haven't had much of is a debate about the merits of the case

or other waiz, we have had a lot of noise and heat about Parliamentary

procedure which is extremely confusing to the public as a whole

probably. If you are on to the merits of the case, as Michael said,

the public do not want a partyless system. They think that's terrible

because the parties determine who is on it and you have very little

say. They certainly don't want to elect somebody for 15 years with no

recall at all? Well, as Alan points out, it's an open list so you can

vote for an individual, it's not determined by the parties and the

15 years was put together so that it doesn't challenge the House of

Commons as the pre-eminent chamber so there are very good arguments in

favour of this particular package. But also, really if we end up with

a referendum, we have to make the case for change and I don't think

that's happened yet. In a way, there's a chance for people on all

sides who're serious about reform like Alan like David Miliband who

made a significant intervention this week to work together and make

a case. Take is punt, is the Bill dead or not? Jay I don't think so.

I think it is. I hope it's not. know you hope it's not. I don't

think it is because I'm very encouraged by the noises from

people like David Miliband. They want to keep up the agony, don't

they. They are being honourable about it. One of the most amazing

features by David Cameron, which has been true since the election

onwards, is hue few favours he has in the Tory favour bank when it

comes to the backbenches and he's got very little to call on now.

When we come back in September, we'll see. Ed Miliband, speaking of

another leader, is he doing well or is it just the Government's doing

badly? The Government is doing very badly and that's the best possible

thing that can happen to a Leader of the Opposition. That having been

said, I've said for quite a long time I didn't think he was doing

badly. I said that at a time when most of the Labour Party didn't

agrae with me. I don't think he's been that bad. I think the public

still have a problem with him, they don't like the way he speaks or

looks, but those are, you know, trivial issues, they may in the end

be de-ice f with the electorate, but as far as an appreciation by

analysts is concerned, he's not doing too badly. And maybe that's

reflected in the fact that Labour is depending on the polls, it's

about serve tonne ten points ahead. In the the grand scheme, that's not

a great position to be in a Government that goes from

omnishambles to omnishambles, living standards falling, being

squeezed more than any other time since the 20s and we are probably

now in our third consecutive quarter of neg tuf growth? It's not

a bad pox to be in -- negative. Blair was 20-253079s ahead? That

was a different time. -- 20-25 points. We lost two or three

elections. Ed's thrfrpled his confidence, he's relaxed --

transformed. He did a press gallery lunch and he was very good. That's

part of him just relaxing into the job. You see that at Prime

Minister's Questions. I know that's not the beall and end all as to how

you are doing as an Leader of the Opposition. But David Cameron can

dish it out but can't take it. have got very little time so this

is a yes no interlude. Two quick questions. Do you still think

coalition will survive through to the election or will we move to a

minority Tory Government? I think it will survive but even as of now,

I think you will see much more that divides the parties than unites

them. Will Mr Clegg lead his party into the next election? My money

would be on that. An interesting way of putting it. She answered

both questions. Yes the coalition will be there because the Lib Dems

don't want to go anywhere near the electorate just now and neither do

the Tories, I don't think Clegg will be there. The first one is

clearly yes and yes for the second one as well but with less certainty.

I think it's looking more likely that the the parties go their

separate ways in 014, but the Tory also run as a minority, it won't

provoke an election, administration until 2015 and it's 50/50 that Mr

Clegg will lead his party. You can put that on the iPlayer and check

in the next couple of years. Thank you for being with us. When This

Week loses its cool, it can only mean one thing, we failed to send a

car for Alan Johnson. When a Government loses its cool, things

are far less serious. Does it matter if call we Dave had a temper

tantrum and threatened big Jessie Norman with a bunch of fives. Ed

Balls was accused of big in the LIBOR scandal, what does he expect

anyway, a personal apology from the Treasury scapegoat also known as

Chloe Smith on Boy George's behalf? I don't think so. That's why we

decided to drop our stiff upper lip for once and put emotions in This

All right, I'm going to try this and it's not going to be easy.

Murray's finally won something, the hearts of the British public. After

showing his emoss when he lost the Wimbledon final -- emotions. More

tissues please. Moon while footballer John Terry's

busy defending his reputation after an unsporting outburst on the pitch

put him in the court of law and public opinion. I've been called a

lot of things in my football career and outside of football as well but

being a racist is not one. And the bad tempered atmosphere has

reached parent with George Osborne refauzing to apologise for sledging

his opposite number -- refusing to apologise for sledging his opposite

number. The man who sneered his way through 13 years of Labour

Government is another thing. Although the Prime Minister isn't

setting a very good example. If reports of his confrontation with

rebel MP Jessie Norman are to be believed. So how easy is it to

control your emotions? Let's ask Tory MP Ann-Marie Morris. And the

funding is available so universities... Calm down, dear, as

someone once said. That sling was clearly a fake, you

could wiggle your arm around like that. Stephen Mangan, welcome to

This Week. Being a good actor means you have to do a range of emotions,

are some easier than others? Yes, I suppose the ones you have always

felt are useful or handy to get your way, so, you know, getting

angry with someone, they're probably easier, the tarker ones,

but the ones you are always taught to hide, especially if you are a

man, like to cry, is hard. Elation is a difficult one, but that

probably says more about me. You have an interesting example

about playing emotions that don't come naturally because you are

playing a pregnant man on the stage? Fpblts giving birth nightly,

gave birth to a beautiful girl this evening. You should have brought

her along? Vished brought her along. Obviously for a man, that's not a

natural emotion to have. Does that make it more difficult? Can't think

of a period in another man's life, women obviously for real, than

giving birth, the range of emotions that wash over you in that 24 hours

isen incredible, from not just the anxiety, pain and fear, but also

boredom, elation, misery and important know ya, yes. You played

Tony Blair as well? Yes. We always lacked a Mr Blair, certainly for

public consumption, as a man who kept his emotions under control?

You always felt, well I always felt with him that he yes, almost felt

he was the star in his own movie all the time. He had a feeling of

like he was aware of his own charisma. He wasn't just in control

of his own emotions but also dared to act a bit, to take on emotions

he was not maybe necessarily feeling at the time. That speech he

gave when Diana died, the people's Princess speech which at the time

really caught the public's imagination. If you look at it now,

looks like a man seriously overacting. It did at the time

actually. I mean, he really went for it. He did always seem like a

man in his own movie because everything seemed lauck an act and

you got the impression he was watching himself from the outside -

- like an act. He fiddled with his button and it was like, I'm here

and everyone knows I'm here and he was a man at peace with his own

aura. Emotions become most exciting when we see a particular emotion

from somebody we didn't expect was capable of it so we'd seen the

angry Andy Murray but not the blubber? It's funny isn't it, yes,

it's the emotions you feel they are trying to suppress are always the

interesting ones, now we are seeing something they are trying to hide,

the real person. Andy Murray, you know, people are saying he suddenly

became emotional, he's been very emotional, there's a lot of anger,

disappointment and shame and all sorts of emotions wash through him.

Surely the emotions he needs are the emotions to make him a good

tennis player but suddenly we see him crying and we like that.

Emotions are tricky for politicians aren't they? Very much so. I want

first of all to say that I'm a complete failure in all these areas

because I some timeed lost my temper and on the last day I left

the Ministry of Defence, I was pretty emotional about that and a

few people might remember that. As I said at the beginning of the

programme, on the whole, these explosive emotions by politicians

are very dangerous and unhelpful. I'm very pleased there's still a

lot of admiration left for Federer and Federer I think is actually the

model that should be followed by Prime Ministers and by other

politicians. You know, somebody who is very approachable and

charismatic but who keeps emotions under control and delivers a

consistent performance. Swiss emotions rather than Scottish?

didn't know Scottish emotions were of that order until I saw Andy

Murray. I'd been let to believe the Scottish were made of sterner stuff.

Mr Cameron has a reputation for anger doesn't he? Carl Turner the

MP for East Hull raised that. He said he never raised his voice, but

Jessie Norman was luke this with Cameron's finger in his face. We

won the higher Education Bill by four votes and had 177 majority.

There are a lot of Labour rebels. Tony Blair did a lot of things but

you could never imagine him reacting like that and I think it's

a problem for Cameron, the flashman description. It's one thing when

you see it occasionally at the despatch borbgs another thing about

when you hear what he's doing o today a very decent Member of

Parliament, like Michael said, Jessie Norman. You worry if a

politician can't control themselves, you know, how are they supposed

to... I mean Gordon Brown had a temper, Ted Heath, Margaret

Thatcher could turn it on when she needed to. Gordon Brown was full of

emotions. You felt he wasn't in control of unlike Blair. We didn't

like most of them either? No, no. It's funny when he left office and

spoke outside Number Ten and said I'm going to the best job with his

kids, your heart suddenly opened up to him. Gordon Brown and Andy

Murray, the comparisons are extn sieve. In 1997, you lost your seat,

you had to control yourself, you must have been feeling something or

o they are than what you were portraying to the cameras that

night? To some extent that's true although I felt a great sense of

relief that, I knew the Conservatives were going to lose

the election, what I didn't want to do was to be involved in Sa

leadership election to lead a rump party. You are at the Royal Court

in Chelsea? That's right and until August 11th. Birthday is the play.

Being on the stage is great? recommend it to any man, giving

birth. Saw it last night. I've seen every episode of Episodes, will

there be another? Hope so. We are waiting for the BBC to make up

their mind. I'll put in another word with the new DG. That's it.

It's the retro New Labour night at Annabel's apparently, Tony Blair's

advising Ed Miliband on legacy issues. I'll give you one for frae

Ed, never ever invade Iraq -- free. We leave you tonight with news that

the French are having another bout of extestential angst, they are