22/11/2012 This Week


22/11/2012

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# The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want... # Tonight, join the

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this week congregation for the vicar of Westminster as the Church

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of England says no to women bishops, is it out of touch with the rest of

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is it out of touch with the rest of society? We have some explaining to

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do. We have as a result of yesterday undoubtedly lost a

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measure of credibility. Religious commentator Anne Atkins disagrees

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with her leaders. This is hardly a disaster. It's barely even a blip

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in the course of 2000 years of Anne Leslie delivers her sermon.

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For decades, I've been covering the Israel Palestine situation. There

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was once I felt hope. It seems to have gone now.

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And rumour and strife in the NHS's true religion - football. Top

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gossip merchant Richard Bacon on the little devil inside all of us.

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You will never guess what I heard about Alan today? What do you mean

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I can't say it? It's all right. I'll just add the words "Innocent

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face" because that circumvents Libel Law. And This Week, who art

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on television, hallowed be thy name. Evening all. Twock This Week. Let

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me begin by saying how delighted I am personally that the top chap

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from the Royal Opera House has become our new boss here at the BBC.

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Of course, I was behind him long before there was even a vacancy

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when that other chap whose name I forget was doing the job for 54

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well paid days. But our new man's built to last. Sure I saw him in

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Billy Elliott or Mamma Mia!. Anyway, it won't be long before mornings

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begin at the BBC with a communal sing-song, perhaps something from

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Gilbert and Sullivan followed by a jocular dity, such as My Old Man's

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a Dustman, then hi who, hi who, it's off to work we go, with a

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spring in our step ready to face whatever Newsnight throws at us and

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there Ain't No Stopping Us Now. Gosh, he can sign that beautifully

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too. And if you're watching, Sir, there's an unpaid Blue Nun I need a

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word with you about. It's accumulated over the past ten years

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and they're turn ago bit nasty about it. But there's plenty of

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cash in the Kitty since Diane left and if there's any chance we could

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swap the Question Time schedule, you'd earn our undying great feud.

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The not that of the audience, and I think you will agree to watching

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tonight, it really is time for some fresh blood, I mean you have seen

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the material I have to work with? I'm not just talking about the

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script, that's Shakespearian compared with the panel which

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brings me to my guests tonight. Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson.

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They were both dead against you getting the job, by the way.

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belonged to a party for many years that was criticised heavily by the

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Church of England for not being concerned with the oppress and

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minorities and so this week the Church of England decided not to

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have women bishops. I reflected that my party had a woman leader 37

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years ago. Interesting. We'll come back to

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that. Alan? Well, this Government's keen on elected mayors but you

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would be forgiven for not realising that because they haven't put a lot

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of effort into selling the policy. Proposed? Yes, we had all the

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referendums of people saying no. Last Thursday, in amongst the

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dismal turnout for PCC elections, the Mayor of Bristol and three by-

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elections, the people of Hartlepool having had an elected mayor for ten

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years got the chance to say whether they wanted to keep it and they

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voted "No". So not only is the policy not going forward, but

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backwards. The fellow there, his name was Stuart. Drummond, yes.

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he'd been mascot of the local football team, a thoroughly nice

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person. Didn't you tell us last week John Prescott was going to win

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the police commissioners... As he did on the first vote. There was a

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supplimentary vote which... Don't you hate these votes!? They'll

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never catch on. If you are betting on elections, don't listen to Alan

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Johnson. It's not been a great for some women. The sales of Pippa's

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party tips book, yes, I say that again correctly, has despite our

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best efforts continued to plummet in sales and poor old go Nad was

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the first contestant voted out of the celebrity jungle even though

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most Tory ministers had a number on speed dial voting on her to stay

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Isn't absence of female bishops really a problem? We've asked Anne

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The church in crisis rocked to its core on the brink of collapse from

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the headlines this week. You would think delay in appointing women

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bishops the worst thing to have happened in nearly 500 years in the

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Church of England. Cobblers. It's not a crisis, not even a rejection

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of women bishops. As with any family, the determination to

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discuss a difficult issue until we are all comfortable is proof of our

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commitment to one another. My first book in the '80s argued

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passionately for women's leadership in the church. Everyone in the C of

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E knows it will happen relatively soon. A significant minority still

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considers it wrong and if we ride rush shod over their views, we are

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not better from the world around us. The church should care for all its

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members. If that means being generous to those who don't agree

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with me so we can stay together, it's a Christian principle that

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Besides, being consecrated bishops won't make us any more important in

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the church than the tiniest newborn baby just baptised. A day may be a

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lifetime to journalist bus another few years to get this right for

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another two Millennia isn't long, is it?

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Politicians could learn from this. We like to think we live in a

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country where minorities are respected, but increasingly, if you

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want to wear a burka or turban, run a B&B or adoption agency, you have

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to conform to the majority view regardless of your own conscience.

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I don't share the traditionalist convictions, but I don't want to

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drive out those I disagree with. My fear is not that women will be seen

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in the house of bishops, it's that centres may not even be seen in the

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pewss driven out by conformity. My father as a young man of 21 was

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prepared to lay down his life for his principles, as an objector in

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the medical corpss he disobeyed the ordor bear arms so I grew up caring

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a lot about unpopular minorities being given freedom of conscience.

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I still care now. I don't want to be part of a church that blindly

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bows to the prevailing view and bullies those who can't change.

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Anne Atkins from her local church to our little local place of

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worship here in wefplt. Welcome. The outgoing Archbishop claims that

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blocking women makes your church look "Wilfully blind". He's talking

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about you. Not particularly me, but all of us. Talking about people

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who've opposed women bishops. not opposing having women bishops.

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You seem happy to go along with it? I'm passionately in favour of women

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bishops but not in favour of riding rough shod over those against whose

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conscience it is. That's what this is about. I mean, there's been a

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lot of misunderstanding and misreporting over the last few days

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on this. This is not - this is the church throwing out this particular

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measure as it is framed at the moment - not throwing out - we all

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know we'll have women bishops in this century, probably early in

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this century. It's only 2012, so plenty of time! Absolutely.

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outgoing Archbishop said "We have some explaining to do", talking

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about the church's attitude towards women? Well, the church is never

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going to make a lot of sense to the people outside it. Jesus made that

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very clear that Christians would be misunderstood. What evidence tuef

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that the layty who voted a representative of the

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congregations? They've been put there in order to represent the

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congregation. You made a mistake in your trailer when you said there

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wasn't a majority, there was in favour of consecrating women

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bishops. Tt way the church does... The... It was 64% of the layty but

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it wasn't two thirds. Yes. And the way we like to do things in the

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church is, we like to bring everyone with us. That's the point.

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If there is a significant minority against whose... You see, these

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aren't a bunch of two-headed misogynists who're saying we don't

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like women, these are people who in conscience, whether they are Anglo-

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Catholic or evangelical wing and a significant minority cannot

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reconcile this with their conscience, that's not the point.

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They are not saying we don't want women, they are saying it doesn't

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seem to be consistent with our faith. I don't agree with them but

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I want... I understand that. Are you saying the church hasn't lost

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credibility? Well it may have done but that's not what the church is

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primarily here for, it's not here for you to think it's a good thing.

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It's got a far greater... I'm not a member of the Church of England but

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I did have lunch with the new Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday,

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he's deeply worried by this and thinks it's really serious. Yes.

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And you don't? In the course of 2000 years, no. 50 years ago we

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were exercised about substanciation, we thought it was terribly

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important, now we don't give it the time of day. 50, 100 years of time,

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this will not seem very important. That's because there will be women

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bishops, it will take you a long time to catch up? So what, the

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church is not here to gain credibility in the world, we have

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far more important fish to try. Like credibility and no-one turns

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up to your congregation? The church world Wild is growing all the time.

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I'm talking about the Church of England. Churches have been

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closed,... That's not because we haven't got women bishops. Jesus

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warned us that the rich, the developed world, harder for a camel

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to go through the eye of a needle and all that, we always knew it

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would be like this. People don't think too much about the more

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important things. It's not because we haven't got women bishops that

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women aren't coming to church. the Church of England out of step

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with the rest of society? No. I thoroughly approve of lack of

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conformity. I think Anne is making a good case for lack of conformity

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and of all the institutions in all the world that should not conform

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with the fashions of the rest of society, they are churches. One

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might say the Church of England has already conform add lot because its

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leader 147 is in favour of women bishop -- leadership. The Roman

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Catholic Church holds out on things like celebacy and a completely male

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priesthood. So they are not bowing to fashion at all. The Church of

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England leadership wants to bow to fashion but I think it really a

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very good thing that not everyone wants that. Anne made a point in

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her film about obliging people who run B& bfs or obliging people who

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run clinics on whatever, abortions or whatever, obliging all these

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people to conform to the fashionable change in society, I

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think she makes a very good point - - B&B. Do you think it undermines

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What they've done here is set a lower moral standard, than

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practically every other institution apart from some golf course in

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Scotland. And the Roman Catholic Church. My colleague said in

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Parliament, you would set a stain glassed ceiling, which is a good

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term for this. In terms of how the public view this, allowing women to

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be ordained 22 years ago and not allowing them, on the basis of an

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archaic system. Ann sounded like Tony Benn defending our slaughter

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at the polls - we got a few million votes. What is wrong with the

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discussion, is you are talking about the Church of England as a

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political party. If it were, this would be ridiculous, for the

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leadership. But you are not a political party. To have 22 seats

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in the Lords - guaranteed. They must be male seats. The two models

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are the family and an army. You take a family. We have quite a

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large family. We have five children. There are seven of us. If there is

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one member of that family who is unhappy with a family decision, we

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discuss it and down to our nine- year-old. My husband got a new job

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and wanted to move. One member of our family was deeply unhappy, we

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would not do it. That is why it is so important. The other model of an

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army - if you are at war, which the Church militant is at war all the

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time, if you like. There are more important things, even than sexual

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equality. If you imagine during the Blitz if we decided sexual equality

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was more important than winning the war and put a woman in front of --

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in charge of a bunch of men who would not follow her orders - it is

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not the most important thing. Church of England is like Britain

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in the Blitz - it is so busy fighting this invisible war that it

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cannot have women bishops? What is the Church for? It is not to please

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the media. It is to preach the gospel. The question is not, do we

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need more women bishops? The question is, do we need any bishops

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at all? It is the parish clergy doing the work we need. In a sense,

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this is much less important. Church of England is a state

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institution. It is part of our constitution and because of the way

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you voted, or your church has voted, in the 21st century, only male

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bishops will get an automatic seat in our Parliament.

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So what? That's not fair. Are you telling me it is fair... It would

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be less fair, if 26 of the positions in it are exclusively

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given to men. Andrew, you are bringing in so many questions about

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the House of Lords, about the place of the Church. Maybe the Church

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should not be establish -- established. There are pros and

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there are cons. Which side do you come out on Having been married to

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a parish vicar, it would be sad, we lived in an inner city vicarage.

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People turned to us in a way that they would not if you were a

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disestablished church. For society and for the underbelly of society,

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I think it would be a shame, but I think there are arguments for it.

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think it plays the most important part in establishing the culture of

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the United Kingdom. Which includes tolerance and

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moderation and one of the lessons it is teaching us here is that the

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will of the majority doesn't just always break through, that you can

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respect the position of minorities as well. I think Ann is right, that

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in history, this is a small moment. Briefly, does it undermine the

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Church's position as the established church in England?

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I think it does. It's the biggest decision which has been made by the

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Church - the only one which I can remember which has led the

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headlines. It is not the biggest. Just because the journalists are

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following it - look, the question is not if we are going to have

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women bishops. How will we protect them against it and keep them in

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the Church of England? That is what the debate is about and what the

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media is missing. Thank you. Now, according to some alarming

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research published this week, half of all airline pilots have admitted

:18:47.:18:52.

falling asleep at the controls. The figure is higher for BBC Director-

:18:52.:18:56.

Generalsch before you slump forward on the remote, keep your hands

:18:56.:19:01.

firmly on your joy strike! We'll soon be joined by Richard Bacon,

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who will take gossip very seriously indeed. For those of you who live

:19:08.:19:16.

in diet and innuendo you can face us on Twieter and the good old

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interweb. Attentions were turned towards the Middle East. Hillary

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Clinton brokered a ceasefire with the Egyptian President, not before

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many suffered injuries and death. David Cameron left these shores to

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renegotiate the EU budget. We turned to Ann Leslie, she has seen

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a conflict or two in her time. This is her international round-up of

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the week. It does contain some Hello. Here I am, at the bar, in

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the club which is a favourite watering hole. Here of an evening,

:20:05.:20:15.
:20:15.:20:16.

they gather to gossip and, after a jar or two, show off with tales of

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daring and I have covered a war or two, in dangerous places. I was

:20:24.:20:27.

rather amused by something an American WAG said about war - he

:20:27.:20:35.

said, war is a way of teaching Americans about geography. We Brits,

:20:35.:20:39.

having owned half the world, are not so bad on the geography. The

:20:39.:20:45.

fact is our readers and viewers actually cannot really cope with

:20:45.:20:50.

more than one bloody international story at a time. And who can blame

:20:50.:20:54.

them? For months, Syria was the big story.

:20:54.:21:04.
:21:04.:21:05.

Now it has been elbowed out of the headlines by, as so often, the

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Israel-Palestine issue. Good morning, Gaza.

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This was the wake-up call sent in by Israel.

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We're getting tougher, more solid and when they kill the parents of a

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boy, he will look for revenge. These scenes have sent shivers of

:21:24.:21:29.

fear across Israel. A bus bomb in the country's commercial heart, Tel

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Aviv. This is a bus, filled with people, in the centre of Tel Aviv,

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which somebody tried to kill, by putting a bomb inside. Who would

:21:40.:21:45.

not be horrified to see this type of picture. I was often rather

:21:45.:21:50.

nervous travelling in Israeli buses because they are prime terrorist

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targets. OK, so now a ceasefire has been agreed. It will endure? My

:21:57.:22:01.

experience of ceasefires throughout the world is that both sides, all

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sides, tend to like them rather to begin with, if only because it

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enables them to have a spot of R and R and stock up on food and

:22:14.:22:18.

fresh weaponry. Then when all sides are nicely refreshed, they start

:22:18.:22:23.

fighting again. Now, I do hope I am wrong this time. The people of this

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region deserve a chance to live free from fear and violence and

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today's agreement is a step in the right direction that we should

:22:31.:22:41.

build on. The problem is war is hideously photo again nick and we

:22:41.:22:47.

reporters regularly bombard our audience here with harrowing

:22:47.:22:53.

pictures of dead babies and weeping mothers. The trouble is, all this

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provides wonderful propaganda for all sides to exploit. For example,

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once in Africa, I heard a cameraman sheikhing at an aid worker -- -

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shrieking at an aid worker, "Get me a dead baby now." This is Syria's

:23:18.:23:24.

hell - a ruthless air campaign and the carnage it reaps. And of course,

:23:24.:23:28.

the Syrian conflict goes on. But what, if anything, is the West to

:23:28.:23:33.

do about it? On the basis of the assurances I've reeveed and my

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consultations with -- I received and my consultations with ministers

:23:40.:23:44.

yesterday, to recognise the Syrian revolutionary forces as the sole

:23:44.:23:49.

representative of the Syrian people. Some people say, how can we stand

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by and not go in and rescue these dying babies and their weeping

:23:54.:23:58.

mums? Well, this foreign correspondent says we must simply

:23:58.:24:03.

stay out of this. If we in of the West go blundering into this

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complicated with our guns, our bombs and deluded good intentions,

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I can tell you that those harrowing scenes will not stop, they will

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continue and they will get worse and we, in the West will get the

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blame. Another reoccurring theme, as we

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know in politics s that Tories, constantly having tussles in

:24:31.:24:37.

Brussels and that is where Cameron is trying to renegotiate the EU

:24:37.:24:42.

budget. Well, dream on, in my view. Incidentally I covered the

:24:42.:24:46.

Maastricht negotiations and was at the signing of the treaty and I

:24:46.:24:52.

said then, it will all end in tears. People say, oh, well, Europe won't

:24:52.:24:55.

break this particular prime minister. I don't think so. I think

:24:55.:25:02.

the EU will break itself, but not immediately. Of course, like any

:25:02.:25:05.

politician who gets some small concession, they come home and they

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proclaim it a victory. We're going to be negotiating very

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hard for a good deal for Britain's taxpayers and for Europe's

:25:14.:25:24.
:25:24.:25:25.

taxpayers and keep the British relate -- rebate. What more of the

:25:25.:25:29.

sight of Barack Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi and looking, like I might

:25:29.:25:37.

say, looking like a love-struck puppy. # And they call it puppy

:25:37.:25:41.

love # Oh, I guess they'll never know #

:25:41.:25:47.

Not all foreign stories about doom and disaster. Now, where's my

:25:47.:25:57.
:25:57.:26:00.

Actually, it was vodka! Ann Leslie there. Thank you for

:26:00.:26:07.

joining us on the This Week sofa. Has Mr Cameron entered these budget

:26:07.:26:12.

negotiations with almost no room for negotiation? His negotiating

:26:12.:26:17.

position is not that, it has to be his end position - it's no increase

:26:17.:26:26.

in the wupblgt? I was surprise -- budget? I was surprised to see him

:26:26.:26:32.

surprised to hear him say, no removal of the rebate, as if he

:26:32.:26:36.

fears this is a possible outcome. This is a rebate Margaret Thatcher

:26:36.:26:41.

secured 20 years ago. I assume these talks will simply have to end

:26:41.:26:45.

with deadlock and they will have to come back another day. How did the

:26:45.:26:50.

Lib Dems feel? They are meant to be the pro Europe party. Labour has

:26:50.:26:55.

backed a cut in the budget. The Commons voted for that. The mood is

:26:55.:27:01.

incredibly Euro-sceptic. If he does not get... How do you play it?

:27:01.:27:04.

I think, actually, it's annual important season for this whole

:27:04.:27:09.

issue. As we know, the Prime Minister has said he'll make a big

:27:09.:27:12.

speech before Christmas, in which he promises some sort of referendum,

:27:12.:27:16.

the detail is yet to become clear. We don't even have a date for the

:27:16.:27:20.

speech? Right, the Labour Party is trying to have it both ways on

:27:20.:27:24.

Europe I think in a rather irresponsible manner. Someone has

:27:24.:27:30.

to make the case for the European Union and Britain's, not just

:27:30.:27:33.

continued membership, but centrality of it. That has to fall

:27:33.:27:38.

to the Lib Dems because they have nothing to lose on the issue. He's

:27:38.:27:45.

trying to have it both ways. speech was very, very pro EU. You

:27:45.:27:50.

wait a long time to get a bad speech from David Cameron and he

:27:50.:27:55.

delivered one on Monday. This Yohanes Scarlet school of

:27:55.:28:02.

negotiation, where he -- this Arthur Scargil school of

:28:02.:28:07.

negotiation - where he talks, he has charm, which you need and

:28:07.:28:13.

persuasion, but to go in with that rhetoric.... The House of Commons

:28:13.:28:19.

has voted for a reduction and he knows the Conservative's position

:28:19.:28:25.

is for an increase, well above inflation. With Labour voting for a

:28:26.:28:28.

reduction. Isn't Mr Cameron in Brussels, with the full backing of

:28:28.:28:34.

the Labour Party to get at least a freeze? I am talking about the way

:28:34.:28:38.

you negotiate. If you lose friends around that negotiating table,

:28:38.:28:46.

Michael is right, he has a very difficult negotiating task. He's

:28:46.:28:49.

got a tough job and tough enough job, as it is, without making it

:28:49.:28:59.
:28:59.:29:03.

It's an extraordinary moment for Europe being unable to resolve

:29:03.:29:08.

these quite fundamental schisms. It's extraordinarily stressful for

:29:08.:29:12.

a Prime Minister seriously. Every Prime Minister more or less finds

:29:12.:29:16.

him or herself in the same position which is that there is no way of

:29:16.:29:19.

getting agreement with the others because we have a fundamentally

:29:19.:29:22.

different position. Because they find themselves socially with the

:29:22.:29:26.

28 leaders, it's awfully difficult to go every time and always be the

:29:26.:29:30.

person who prevents everything happening and being unpopular. They

:29:30.:29:33.

always want to give something and the tension between what they try

:29:34.:29:37.

to do socially with the leaders of Europe and what they have to do

:29:37.:29:42.

with politics at home is upsetting and stressful. These are every

:29:42.:29:47.

seven years, so it's only Thatcher, Blair, Major and Blair that have

:29:47.:29:52.

done it before. But take the rebate. It's tied to the agricultural

:29:52.:29:56.

policy which we want to get rid of. There was a good case for reducing

:29:56.:30:01.

the rebate seven years ago because we reduced the cap. It's still too

:30:01.:30:06.

high. You did reduce it then you didn't get a cut. We did. We got it

:30:06.:30:12.

down to 40%. It's the 21st century and the European budget... But it

:30:12.:30:16.

was a move forward and that rebate is collaborated with the

:30:16.:30:21.

agricultural budget, so if it goes, we succeed in that which is a

:30:21.:30:24.

primary aim and should be, actually the rebate will go down. There was

:30:24.:30:31.

a good reason for the rebate in 84, it becomes less of a good argument

:30:31.:30:36.

20-odd years later or 30 odd years later. The situation in Gaza, the

:30:36.:30:39.

media, commentary and politicians are always talking about we need a

:30:39.:30:43.

ceasefire, then we need to get back to peace negotiations and there

:30:43.:30:46.

needs to be a long-term settlement. Isn't the reality on the ground

:30:46.:30:49.

that for both sides, this is a situation just to manage, just to

:30:49.:30:55.

get through this, there's no possibility of a comprehensive

:30:55.:30:58.

peace agreement? Of course there is a possibility of a comprehensive

:30:58.:31:01.

peace agreement because everyone knows what it would be, what you

:31:01.:31:06.

mean is there is no leadership on either side to get to that.

:31:06.:31:10.

desire? Yes and no leadership. There's only bun one leader who

:31:11.:31:15.

might have been braid enough and that was Ariel Sharon and he went

:31:15.:31:19.

into a coma. Binyamin Netanyahu is not the man to do it. The

:31:19.:31:23.

Palestinians are heavily divided between the Palestinians in the

:31:23.:31:27.

West Bank and those in Gaza, so there's no leadership there, so no

:31:27.:31:32.

opportunity whatsoever of going towards peace. There's bun a bright

:31:32.:31:35.

spot though, the role of Egypt because there was a worry that the

:31:35.:31:39.

new Egypt might be adding fuel to the flames of the Palestinian anger,

:31:39.:31:43.

but actually Egypt's play add very important role in damping things

:31:43.:31:47.

down this week so it's good if that continues. That's partly because

:31:47.:31:51.

the Israelis announced the mobilisation of 75,000 troops last

:31:52.:31:57.

Friday night and the President of Egypt knows the Army's in no

:31:57.:32:02.

condition to to anything about the situation in Gaza? Yes and I also

:32:02.:32:06.

think actually a mass seemed to come out of this with more to

:32:06.:32:11.

celebrate which worries me. I think Abbas over on the West Bank needs

:32:11.:32:16.

to be... Do you think so. It's been written out the script. Exactly,

:32:16.:32:21.

which is why Hillary Clinton made a special effort to give them some

:32:21.:32:25.

credit. I would suspect that Hamas has only signed a truce because

:32:25.:32:31.

it's been very heavily degraded during its military operation.

:32:31.:32:37.

agree, but... It's lost a lot of its weapons. But the talks going on

:32:37.:32:41.

prior to the strike on Gaza were actually getting to those, you know,

:32:41.:32:43.

they've actually got what they would have got from the

:32:43.:32:47.

negotiations in the first place without giving an end date. The

:32:47.:32:50.

Israelis in the negotiations want add ceasefire over a period and

:32:50.:32:54.

they haven't got that. There were other issues the Israelis didn't

:32:54.:32:58.

get. I think the Israelis will be pleased that they've taken out what

:32:58.:33:01.

was one of the most dangerous terrorists and that may have been

:33:02.:33:06.

the whole aim of it. Staying with the Middle East and

:33:06.:33:09.

finishing up on Syria. Significant that William Hague says we

:33:09.:33:14.

recognise the rebels now as the sole representative of the Syrian

:33:14.:33:18.

people? I think so. He was very careful to say that this was a long

:33:18.:33:22.

way short of changing the decision on arming the rebels. Yes. But it's

:33:22.:33:26.

still a very significant moment. They don't have full backing of all

:33:26.:33:31.

Syrian's opposition groups, so that is at least one major Western

:33:31.:33:36.

nation choosing to put its eggs in a particular Syrian basket. Was tit

:33:36.:33:40.

sensible thing to do? I think it's a gamble. I don't know what

:33:40.:33:43.

justifys the gamble. I think the Government took a gamble over Libya

:33:43.:33:48.

and that paid off. It may be that this gamble pays off, it may be

:33:48.:33:52.

that Al-Sadr is on his way out and therefore we'll get some credit --

:33:52.:33:57.

Assad. If I were there, I would need a lot of persuasion that I

:33:57.:34:01.

knew enough about the opposition to want to recognise it. Final word to

:34:01.:34:05.

you Alan? Not sure Libya did work out successfully. I backed it, but

:34:05.:34:10.

looking at what's happening now in Libya, you make the same mistake

:34:10.:34:15.

and there are the wrong forces in that coalition. Difficult to tell.

:34:15.:34:19.

William Hague knows more about the information and the intelligence on

:34:19.:34:23.

this, but it's a gamable. Thank you very much.

:34:23.:34:27.

Now having two fish wives on the sofa means we get to hear our fair

:34:27.:34:33.

share of gossip. Michael told nae Alan's (tell you later) anyway,

:34:33.:34:39.

hope it's healing nicely Alan, sounds nasty! Only when I laugh!

:34:39.:34:43.

When rumours are rife on social media, is tittle-tattle too often

:34:43.:34:49.

mistaken as fact? Keep it on the QT, This Week we are putting gossip in

:34:49.:34:59.
:34:59.:35:08.

When the Internet jungle drums wrongly accused Lord McIcal pine of

:35:08.:35:12.

being a paedophile, the consequences were serious. It gets

:35:12.:35:20.

into your bones, makes you angry. - - Lord McAlpine. That's extremely

:35:20.:35:30.
:35:30.:35:31.

bad for yourbgs getting angry. lawyer's promised action. It's not

:35:31.:35:37.

stopped gossip surrounding Lyndon cross bi. What did he say in the

:35:37.:35:40.

meetings with Boris? Whilst football was a buzz with

:35:40.:35:46.

speculation before the sacking of Chelsea boss, Roberto demate owe,

:35:46.:35:52.

perhaps hastening his demise. responsible for the result and

:35:52.:36:00.

performance. I should take the blame. Rumours of streaking

:36:00.:36:05.

journalists on Rihanna's tour plane helped her top the charts this week.

:36:05.:36:10.

So, will the rumour mill grind to a halt now we know the damage it can

:36:10.:36:17.

wreak, or is tittle-tattle always just too good to resist? # I heard

:36:17.:36:22.

it through the grapevine... # We are joined by world famous

:36:22.:36:28.

gossip columnist Richard Bacon. Has this been a watershed week in terms

:36:28.:36:38.
:36:38.:36:42.

of all this unsubstantiated online gossip? Yes. By the way, Lord

:36:42.:36:45.

McAlpine described why he doesn't like Chris Patten, but that's a

:36:46.:36:49.

side issue. It's been a watershed moment for a number of reasons. One,

:36:49.:36:53.

I think Twitter is essentially quite cruel. If you are not a

:36:53.:36:55.

famous person, if you are not a politician, if you are not

:36:55.:36:58.

promoting a business, I think it gives you the impression that you

:36:58.:37:01.

are only talking to your friends and a lot of people only follow

:37:01.:37:05.

their friends and their friends follow them. There will be lots of

:37:05.:37:11.

people who named Lord McAlpine and connected him to that horrible

:37:11.:37:16.

story in the pub with their friends. No action will be taken. I think a

:37:16.:37:19.

lot of people thought Twitter was the same thing and this week they

:37:19.:37:25.

learnt that it's not. Do you feel sorry for the ones that are now in

:37:25.:37:35.

the McAlpine firing line? Sally Bercow, for example? No. She called

:37:35.:37:41.

Lord McAlpine a "Big bully?" and adding innocent face to a libel

:37:41.:37:46.

doesn't get around the law, we learnt that too. She should know

:37:46.:37:50.

better, she had 50,000 followers. She understands that Twitter is

:37:50.:37:53.

essentially broadcasting but I think a lot of people didn't know

:37:53.:37:59.

that. There is an argument, I don't necessarily agree with it, but

:37:59.:38:02.

there is an argument that says Newsnight start add rumour and some

:38:02.:38:07.

people on Twitter who maybe don't understand libel repeat add rumour

:38:07.:38:10.

that somebody else started. I know repeating a libel isn't a defence

:38:10.:38:15.

but I can sort of see why it happened. A lot of Tweets relished

:38:15.:38:22.

it. They loved it. They loved the fact that a Thatcherite Tory had

:38:22.:38:27.

been named? Yes. Michael, where are you on this On that last point, you

:38:27.:38:30.

are absolutely right. The wishful thinking point goes all the way

:38:30.:38:33.

back to the BBC and back to Newsnight, it was wishful thinking,

:38:33.:38:40.

part of what happened there. Of course, people have gossiped across

:38:40.:38:45.

the centuries. I've gossiped. I've never gossiped on Twitter because I

:38:45.:38:51.

don't Tweet. So to that extent, I can see that some people who've

:38:51.:38:54.

Tweeted must feel they are hard done by because what they've done

:38:54.:38:59.

is what people have done over the centuries but it's a different kind

:38:59.:39:02.

of publishing. On the other hand, there are some people who're

:39:02.:39:05.

manufacturing malice, they've got factories manufacturing malice and

:39:05.:39:11.

they have to be hit really hard indeed. So if it has been a

:39:11.:39:16.

threshold moment for the latter activity, it's been good.

:39:16.:39:21.

agree? I think Sally Bercow was taking on what everyone was saying,

:39:21.:39:26.

including television stations like the BBC and like ITV's good

:39:26.:39:30.

monthing. But she breached another injunction after that, didn't she?

:39:30.:39:37.

Let's not go on about it? Yeah... These names were being banded

:39:37.:39:43.

around. The Daily Telegraph did a piece with the first ones, rather

:39:43.:39:48.

unwittingly to reveal it was Lord McAlpine. Lord McAlpine was

:39:48.:39:53.

incredibly dignified in the way he dealt with this. He was. For him to

:39:53.:39:58.

be so magistrate none mouse about that, estron the extent of the

:39:58.:40:04.

libel damages he's claiming from certain organisations -- for him to

:40:04.:40:12.

be so magnanimous about that, even the extent of the libel damages.

:40:12.:40:16.

he right to pursue the people who libeled him on Twitter? I think

:40:16.:40:23.

those people with small numbers of followers, he's asking for a bit of

:40:23.:40:29.

an apology. A tokeling? Yes, a slap on the wrist. It's clever? Yes, I

:40:29.:40:34.

think yes it's worth doing it because it's turning it into a

:40:34.:40:37.

watershed moment and I think people's attitudes about Tweeting

:40:37.:40:41.

and more crucially, re-Tweeting libelous comments will change as a

:40:41.:40:48.

result of this. It's a nice remind they're some to have -- of the big

:40:48.:40:54.

figures from the Thatcher era had a deft touch. Some have still got it.

:40:54.:41:00.

Obviously not all! Daft political touch. Do you think

:41:00.:41:04.

in the Twittersphere and social media in general, dining we'll see

:41:04.:41:11.

a pulling back from the nastyness? I hope so. I made a documentary

:41:11.:41:14.

about international trolls earlier this year. I would like that very

:41:14.:41:20.

much. One of the solutions I think should be, which doesn't include

:41:20.:41:25.

state intervention, if people were compelled to use their photo and

:41:25.:41:30.

real name, a lot of that nastyness would dissipate because people are

:41:30.:41:34.

emboldened by anonymity. If we could get rid of that, it would all

:41:35.:41:39.

change. They use the anonymity don't they? They do. You said

:41:39.:41:42.

earlier Michael we have seen this for years, but I think Twitter and

:41:42.:41:47.

social media and fore-cum-s on the Mail and the Guardian, there is a

:41:47.:41:51.

strange alchemy between a person, keyboard and anonymity which has

:41:51.:41:57.

brought out a side of human nature which we have never seen before.

:41:57.:42:03.

Actually, you see it in a car, someone makes gestures and yells

:42:03.:42:07.

obscenities at people that somehow the car protects them. So much more

:42:07.:42:10.

then if you are at a screen and on a keyboard, of course you feel

:42:10.:42:14.

distant from the people that you are dishing it out to. That's a

:42:14.:42:21.

brilliant analogy, it trns you into an irrational monster. But people

:42:21.:42:26.

would always write it on toilet walls and stuff. They send it to

:42:26.:42:30.

you though, they want you personally to see it unless someone

:42:30.:42:35.

knows which toilet you use all the time, that's less effective, you

:42:35.:42:41.

know. The other watershed moment I think is, well not watershed but it

:42:41.:42:47.

was interesting this week BBC and ITV, that Phillip Schofield stunt

:42:47.:42:51.

and I think ITV have handled it well. They don't get the attention

:42:51.:42:56.

of the BBC do they, they really don't? That's my point. If you had

:42:56.:43:03.

done that, or a presenter on BBC Breakfast would have done that, the

:43:03.:43:07.

presenter would have resigned. I'm not saying I think that's what

:43:07.:43:11.

should happen at ITV... But they are judged differently? Exactly.

:43:11.:43:19.

Good to have you, Richard. Pleasure. That's it for - from us. We have

:43:19.:43:24.

marked each other's cards for the Viennese waltz. We will leave you

:43:24.:43:29.

with the sight that viewers of a gentle disposition may find

:43:29.:43:34.

disturbing, secret footage of a certain Michael Portillo getting in

:43:34.:43:40.

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