Browse content similar to 22/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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# The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want... # Tonight, join the | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
this week congregation for the vicar of Westminster as the Church | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
of England says no to women bishops, is it out of touch with the rest of | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
is it out of touch with the rest of society? We have some explaining to | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
do. We have as a result of yesterday undoubtedly lost a | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
measure of credibility. Religious commentator Anne Atkins disagrees | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
with her leaders. This is hardly a disaster. It's barely even a blip | :00:44. | :00:54. | |
:00:54. | :01:00. | ||
in the course of 2000 years of Anne Leslie delivers her sermon. | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
For decades, I've been covering the Israel Palestine situation. There | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
was once I felt hope. It seems to have gone now. | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
And rumour and strife in the NHS's true religion - football. Top | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
gossip merchant Richard Bacon on the little devil inside all of us. | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
You will never guess what I heard about Alan today? What do you mean | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
I can't say it? It's all right. I'll just add the words "Innocent | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
face" because that circumvents Libel Law. And This Week, who art | :01:38. | :01:48. | |
:01:48. | :01:51. | ||
on television, hallowed be thy name. Evening all. Twock This Week. Let | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
me begin by saying how delighted I am personally that the top chap | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
from the Royal Opera House has become our new boss here at the BBC. | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Of course, I was behind him long before there was even a vacancy | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
when that other chap whose name I forget was doing the job for 54 | :02:07. | :02:15. | |
well paid days. But our new man's built to last. Sure I saw him in | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
Billy Elliott or Mamma Mia!. Anyway, it won't be long before mornings | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
begin at the BBC with a communal sing-song, perhaps something from | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
Gilbert and Sullivan followed by a jocular dity, such as My Old Man's | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
a Dustman, then hi who, hi who, it's off to work we go, with a | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
spring in our step ready to face whatever Newsnight throws at us and | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
there Ain't No Stopping Us Now. Gosh, he can sign that beautifully | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
too. And if you're watching, Sir, there's an unpaid Blue Nun I need a | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
word with you about. It's accumulated over the past ten years | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
and they're turn ago bit nasty about it. But there's plenty of | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
cash in the Kitty since Diane left and if there's any chance we could | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
swap the Question Time schedule, you'd earn our undying great feud. | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
The not that of the audience, and I think you will agree to watching | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
tonight, it really is time for some fresh blood, I mean you have seen | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
the material I have to work with? I'm not just talking about the | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
script, that's Shakespearian compared with the panel which | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
brings me to my guests tonight. Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson. | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
They were both dead against you getting the job, by the way. | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
belonged to a party for many years that was criticised heavily by the | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
Church of England for not being concerned with the oppress and | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
minorities and so this week the Church of England decided not to | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
have women bishops. I reflected that my party had a woman leader 37 | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
years ago. Interesting. We'll come back to | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
that. Alan? Well, this Government's keen on elected mayors but you | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
would be forgiven for not realising that because they haven't put a lot | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
of effort into selling the policy. Proposed? Yes, we had all the | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
referendums of people saying no. Last Thursday, in amongst the | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
dismal turnout for PCC elections, the Mayor of Bristol and three by- | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
elections, the people of Hartlepool having had an elected mayor for ten | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
years got the chance to say whether they wanted to keep it and they | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
voted "No". So not only is the policy not going forward, but | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
backwards. The fellow there, his name was Stuart. Drummond, yes. | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
he'd been mascot of the local football team, a thoroughly nice | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
person. Didn't you tell us last week John Prescott was going to win | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
the police commissioners... As he did on the first vote. There was a | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
supplimentary vote which... Don't you hate these votes!? They'll | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
never catch on. If you are betting on elections, don't listen to Alan | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
Johnson. It's not been a great for some women. The sales of Pippa's | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
party tips book, yes, I say that again correctly, has despite our | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
best efforts continued to plummet in sales and poor old go Nad was | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
the first contestant voted out of the celebrity jungle even though | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
most Tory ministers had a number on speed dial voting on her to stay | :05:30. | :05:40. | |
:05:40. | :05:47. | ||
Isn't absence of female bishops really a problem? We've asked Anne | :05:47. | :05:57. | |
:05:57. | :06:22. | ||
The church in crisis rocked to its core on the brink of collapse from | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
the headlines this week. You would think delay in appointing women | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
bishops the worst thing to have happened in nearly 500 years in the | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
Church of England. Cobblers. It's not a crisis, not even a rejection | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
of women bishops. As with any family, the determination to | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
discuss a difficult issue until we are all comfortable is proof of our | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
commitment to one another. My first book in the '80s argued | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
passionately for women's leadership in the church. Everyone in the C of | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
E knows it will happen relatively soon. A significant minority still | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
considers it wrong and if we ride rush shod over their views, we are | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
not better from the world around us. The church should care for all its | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
members. If that means being generous to those who don't agree | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
with me so we can stay together, it's a Christian principle that | :07:10. | :07:20. | |
:07:20. | :07:32. | ||
Besides, being consecrated bishops won't make us any more important in | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
the church than the tiniest newborn baby just baptised. A day may be a | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
lifetime to journalist bus another few years to get this right for | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
another two Millennia isn't long, is it? | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
Politicians could learn from this. We like to think we live in a | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
country where minorities are respected, but increasingly, if you | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
want to wear a burka or turban, run a B&B or adoption agency, you have | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
to conform to the majority view regardless of your own conscience. | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
I don't share the traditionalist convictions, but I don't want to | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
drive out those I disagree with. My fear is not that women will be seen | :08:10. | :08:18. | |
in the house of bishops, it's that centres may not even be seen in the | :08:18. | :08:28. | |
:08:28. | :08:28. | ||
pewss driven out by conformity. My father as a young man of 21 was | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
prepared to lay down his life for his principles, as an objector in | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
the medical corpss he disobeyed the ordor bear arms so I grew up caring | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
a lot about unpopular minorities being given freedom of conscience. | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
I still care now. I don't want to be part of a church that blindly | :08:46. | :08:54. | |
bows to the prevailing view and bullies those who can't change. | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
Anne Atkins from her local church to our little local place of | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
worship here in wefplt. Welcome. The outgoing Archbishop claims that | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
blocking women makes your church look "Wilfully blind". He's talking | :09:10. | :09:18. | |
about you. Not particularly me, but all of us. Talking about people | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
who've opposed women bishops. not opposing having women bishops. | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
You seem happy to go along with it? I'm passionately in favour of women | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
bishops but not in favour of riding rough shod over those against whose | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
conscience it is. That's what this is about. I mean, there's been a | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
lot of misunderstanding and misreporting over the last few days | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
on this. This is not - this is the church throwing out this particular | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
measure as it is framed at the moment - not throwing out - we all | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
know we'll have women bishops in this century, probably early in | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
this century. It's only 2012, so plenty of time! Absolutely. | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
outgoing Archbishop said "We have some explaining to do", talking | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
about the church's attitude towards women? Well, the church is never | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
going to make a lot of sense to the people outside it. Jesus made that | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
very clear that Christians would be misunderstood. What evidence tuef | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
that the layty who voted a representative of the | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
congregations? They've been put there in order to represent the | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
congregation. You made a mistake in your trailer when you said there | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
wasn't a majority, there was in favour of consecrating women | :10:32. | :10:40. | |
bishops. Tt way the church does... The... It was 64% of the layty but | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
it wasn't two thirds. Yes. And the way we like to do things in the | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
church is, we like to bring everyone with us. That's the point. | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
If there is a significant minority against whose... You see, these | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
aren't a bunch of two-headed misogynists who're saying we don't | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
like women, these are people who in conscience, whether they are Anglo- | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
Catholic or evangelical wing and a significant minority cannot | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
reconcile this with their conscience, that's not the point. | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
They are not saying we don't want women, they are saying it doesn't | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
seem to be consistent with our faith. I don't agree with them but | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
I want... I understand that. Are you saying the church hasn't lost | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
credibility? Well it may have done but that's not what the church is | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
primarily here for, it's not here for you to think it's a good thing. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
It's got a far greater... I'm not a member of the Church of England but | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
I did have lunch with the new Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday, | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
he's deeply worried by this and thinks it's really serious. Yes. | :11:43. | :11:51. | |
And you don't? In the course of 2000 years, no. 50 years ago we | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
were exercised about substanciation, we thought it was terribly | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
important, now we don't give it the time of day. 50, 100 years of time, | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
this will not seem very important. That's because there will be women | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
bishops, it will take you a long time to catch up? So what, the | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
church is not here to gain credibility in the world, we have | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
far more important fish to try. Like credibility and no-one turns | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
up to your congregation? The church world Wild is growing all the time. | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
I'm talking about the Church of England. Churches have been | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
closed,... That's not because we haven't got women bishops. Jesus | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
warned us that the rich, the developed world, harder for a camel | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
to go through the eye of a needle and all that, we always knew it | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
would be like this. People don't think too much about the more | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
important things. It's not because we haven't got women bishops that | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
women aren't coming to church. the Church of England out of step | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
with the rest of society? No. I thoroughly approve of lack of | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
conformity. I think Anne is making a good case for lack of conformity | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
and of all the institutions in all the world that should not conform | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
with the fashions of the rest of society, they are churches. One | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
might say the Church of England has already conform add lot because its | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
leader 147 is in favour of women bishop -- leadership. The Roman | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
Catholic Church holds out on things like celebacy and a completely male | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
priesthood. So they are not bowing to fashion at all. The Church of | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
England leadership wants to bow to fashion but I think it really a | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
very good thing that not everyone wants that. Anne made a point in | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
her film about obliging people who run B& bfs or obliging people who | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
run clinics on whatever, abortions or whatever, obliging all these | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
people to conform to the fashionable change in society, I | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
think she makes a very good point - - B&B. Do you think it undermines | :13:45. | :13:55. | |
:13:55. | :14:01. | ||
What they've done here is set a lower moral standard, than | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
practically every other institution apart from some golf course in | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
Scotland. And the Roman Catholic Church. My colleague said in | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
Parliament, you would set a stain glassed ceiling, which is a good | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
term for this. In terms of how the public view this, allowing women to | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
be ordained 22 years ago and not allowing them, on the basis of an | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
archaic system. Ann sounded like Tony Benn defending our slaughter | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
at the polls - we got a few million votes. What is wrong with the | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
discussion, is you are talking about the Church of England as a | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
political party. If it were, this would be ridiculous, for the | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
leadership. But you are not a political party. To have 22 seats | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
in the Lords - guaranteed. They must be male seats. The two models | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
are the family and an army. You take a family. We have quite a | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
large family. We have five children. There are seven of us. If there is | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
one member of that family who is unhappy with a family decision, we | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
discuss it and down to our nine- year-old. My husband got a new job | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
and wanted to move. One member of our family was deeply unhappy, we | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
would not do it. That is why it is so important. The other model of an | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
army - if you are at war, which the Church militant is at war all the | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
time, if you like. There are more important things, even than sexual | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
equality. If you imagine during the Blitz if we decided sexual equality | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
was more important than winning the war and put a woman in front of -- | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
in charge of a bunch of men who would not follow her orders - it is | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
not the most important thing. Church of England is like Britain | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
in the Blitz - it is so busy fighting this invisible war that it | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
cannot have women bishops? What is the Church for? It is not to please | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
the media. It is to preach the gospel. The question is not, do we | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
need more women bishops? The question is, do we need any bishops | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
at all? It is the parish clergy doing the work we need. In a sense, | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
this is much less important. Church of England is a state | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
institution. It is part of our constitution and because of the way | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
you voted, or your church has voted, in the 21st century, only male | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
bishops will get an automatic seat in our Parliament. | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
So what? That's not fair. Are you telling me it is fair... It would | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
be less fair, if 26 of the positions in it are exclusively | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
given to men. Andrew, you are bringing in so many questions about | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
the House of Lords, about the place of the Church. Maybe the Church | :16:56. | :17:06. | |
:17:06. | :17:08. | ||
should not be establish -- established. There are pros and | :17:08. | :17:17. | |
there are cons. Which side do you come out on Having been married to | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
a parish vicar, it would be sad, we lived in an inner city vicarage. | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
People turned to us in a way that they would not if you were a | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
disestablished church. For society and for the underbelly of society, | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
I think it would be a shame, but I think there are arguments for it. | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
think it plays the most important part in establishing the culture of | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
the United Kingdom. Which includes tolerance and | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
moderation and one of the lessons it is teaching us here is that the | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
will of the majority doesn't just always break through, that you can | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
respect the position of minorities as well. I think Ann is right, that | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
in history, this is a small moment. Briefly, does it undermine the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
Church's position as the established church in England? | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
I think it does. It's the biggest decision which has been made by the | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
Church - the only one which I can remember which has led the | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
headlines. It is not the biggest. Just because the journalists are | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
following it - look, the question is not if we are going to have | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
women bishops. How will we protect them against it and keep them in | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
the Church of England? That is what the debate is about and what the | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
media is missing. Thank you. Now, according to some alarming | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
research published this week, half of all airline pilots have admitted | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
falling asleep at the controls. The figure is higher for BBC Director- | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
Generalsch before you slump forward on the remote, keep your hands | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
firmly on your joy strike! We'll soon be joined by Richard Bacon, | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
who will take gossip very seriously indeed. For those of you who live | :19:08. | :19:16. | |
in diet and innuendo you can face us on Twieter and the good old | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
interweb. Attentions were turned towards the Middle East. Hillary | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Clinton brokered a ceasefire with the Egyptian President, not before | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
many suffered injuries and death. David Cameron left these shores to | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
renegotiate the EU budget. We turned to Ann Leslie, she has seen | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
a conflict or two in her time. This is her international round-up of | :19:40. | :19:50. | |
:19:50. | :20:00. | ||
the week. It does contain some Hello. Here I am, at the bar, in | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
the club which is a favourite watering hole. Here of an evening, | :20:05. | :20:15. | |
:20:15. | :20:16. | ||
they gather to gossip and, after a jar or two, show off with tales of | :20:16. | :20:24. | |
daring and I have covered a war or two, in dangerous places. I was | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
rather amused by something an American WAG said about war - he | :20:27. | :20:35. | |
said, war is a way of teaching Americans about geography. We Brits, | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
having owned half the world, are not so bad on the geography. The | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
fact is our readers and viewers actually cannot really cope with | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
more than one bloody international story at a time. And who can blame | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
them? For months, Syria was the big story. | :20:54. | :21:04. | |
:21:04. | :21:05. | ||
Now it has been elbowed out of the headlines by, as so often, the | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
Israel-Palestine issue. Good morning, Gaza. | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
This was the wake-up call sent in by Israel. | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
We're getting tougher, more solid and when they kill the parents of a | :21:18. | :21:24. | |
boy, he will look for revenge. These scenes have sent shivers of | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
fear across Israel. A bus bomb in the country's commercial heart, Tel | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
Aviv. This is a bus, filled with people, in the centre of Tel Aviv, | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
which somebody tried to kill, by putting a bomb inside. Who would | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
not be horrified to see this type of picture. I was often rather | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
nervous travelling in Israeli buses because they are prime terrorist | :21:50. | :21:57. | |
targets. OK, so now a ceasefire has been agreed. It will endure? My | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
experience of ceasefires throughout the world is that both sides, all | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
sides, tend to like them rather to begin with, if only because it | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
enables them to have a spot of R and R and stock up on food and | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
fresh weaponry. Then when all sides are nicely refreshed, they start | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
fighting again. Now, I do hope I am wrong this time. The people of this | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
region deserve a chance to live free from fear and violence and | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
today's agreement is a step in the right direction that we should | :22:31. | :22:41. | |
build on. The problem is war is hideously photo again nick and we | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
reporters regularly bombard our audience here with harrowing | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
pictures of dead babies and weeping mothers. The trouble is, all this | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
provides wonderful propaganda for all sides to exploit. For example, | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
once in Africa, I heard a cameraman sheikhing at an aid worker -- - | :23:05. | :23:15. | |
:23:15. | :23:18. | ||
shrieking at an aid worker, "Get me a dead baby now." This is Syria's | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
hell - a ruthless air campaign and the carnage it reaps. And of course, | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
the Syrian conflict goes on. But what, if anything, is the West to | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
do about it? On the basis of the assurances I've reeveed and my | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
consultations with -- I received and my consultations with ministers | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
yesterday, to recognise the Syrian revolutionary forces as the sole | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
representative of the Syrian people. Some people say, how can we stand | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
by and not go in and rescue these dying babies and their weeping | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
mums? Well, this foreign correspondent says we must simply | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
stay out of this. If we in of the West go blundering into this | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
complicated with our guns, our bombs and deluded good intentions, | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
I can tell you that those harrowing scenes will not stop, they will | :24:13. | :24:21. | |
continue and they will get worse and we, in the West will get the | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
blame. Another reoccurring theme, as we | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
know in politics s that Tories, constantly having tussles in | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
Brussels and that is where Cameron is trying to renegotiate the EU | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
budget. Well, dream on, in my view. Incidentally I covered the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
Maastricht negotiations and was at the signing of the treaty and I | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
said then, it will all end in tears. People say, oh, well, Europe won't | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
break this particular prime minister. I don't think so. I think | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
the EU will break itself, but not immediately. Of course, like any | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
politician who gets some small concession, they come home and they | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
proclaim it a victory. We're going to be negotiating very | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
hard for a good deal for Britain's taxpayers and for Europe's | :25:14. | :25:24. | |
:25:24. | :25:25. | ||
taxpayers and keep the British relate -- rebate. What more of the | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
sight of Barack Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi and looking, like I might | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
say, looking like a love-struck puppy. # And they call it puppy | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
love # Oh, I guess they'll never know # | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
Not all foreign stories about doom and disaster. Now, where's my | :25:47. | :25:57. | |
:25:57. | :26:00. | ||
Actually, it was vodka! Ann Leslie there. Thank you for | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
joining us on the This Week sofa. Has Mr Cameron entered these budget | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
negotiations with almost no room for negotiation? His negotiating | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
position is not that, it has to be his end position - it's no increase | :26:17. | :26:26. | |
in the wupblgt? I was surprise -- budget? I was surprised to see him | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
surprised to hear him say, no removal of the rebate, as if he | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
fears this is a possible outcome. This is a rebate Margaret Thatcher | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
secured 20 years ago. I assume these talks will simply have to end | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
with deadlock and they will have to come back another day. How did the | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
Lib Dems feel? They are meant to be the pro Europe party. Labour has | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
backed a cut in the budget. The Commons voted for that. The mood is | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
incredibly Euro-sceptic. If he does not get... How do you play it? | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
I think, actually, it's annual important season for this whole | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
issue. As we know, the Prime Minister has said he'll make a big | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
speech before Christmas, in which he promises some sort of referendum, | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
the detail is yet to become clear. We don't even have a date for the | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
speech? Right, the Labour Party is trying to have it both ways on | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
Europe I think in a rather irresponsible manner. Someone has | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
to make the case for the European Union and Britain's, not just | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
continued membership, but centrality of it. That has to fall | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
to the Lib Dems because they have nothing to lose on the issue. He's | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
trying to have it both ways. speech was very, very pro EU. You | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
wait a long time to get a bad speech from David Cameron and he | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
delivered one on Monday. This Yohanes Scarlet school of | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
negotiation, where he -- this Arthur Scargil school of | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
negotiation - where he talks, he has charm, which you need and | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
persuasion, but to go in with that rhetoric.... The House of Commons | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
has voted for a reduction and he knows the Conservative's position | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
is for an increase, well above inflation. With Labour voting for a | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
reduction. Isn't Mr Cameron in Brussels, with the full backing of | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
the Labour Party to get at least a freeze? I am talking about the way | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
you negotiate. If you lose friends around that negotiating table, | :28:38. | :28:46. | |
Michael is right, he has a very difficult negotiating task. He's | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
got a tough job and tough enough job, as it is, without making it | :28:49. | :28:59. | |
:28:59. | :29:03. | ||
It's an extraordinary moment for Europe being unable to resolve | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
these quite fundamental schisms. It's extraordinarily stressful for | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
a Prime Minister seriously. Every Prime Minister more or less finds | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
him or herself in the same position which is that there is no way of | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
getting agreement with the others because we have a fundamentally | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
different position. Because they find themselves socially with the | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
28 leaders, it's awfully difficult to go every time and always be the | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
person who prevents everything happening and being unpopular. They | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
always want to give something and the tension between what they try | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
to do socially with the leaders of Europe and what they have to do | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
with politics at home is upsetting and stressful. These are every | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
seven years, so it's only Thatcher, Blair, Major and Blair that have | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
done it before. But take the rebate. It's tied to the agricultural | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
policy which we want to get rid of. There was a good case for reducing | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
the rebate seven years ago because we reduced the cap. It's still too | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
high. You did reduce it then you didn't get a cut. We did. We got it | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
down to 40%. It's the 21st century and the European budget... But it | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
was a move forward and that rebate is collaborated with the | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
agricultural budget, so if it goes, we succeed in that which is a | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
primary aim and should be, actually the rebate will go down. There was | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
a good reason for the rebate in 84, it becomes less of a good argument | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
20-odd years later or 30 odd years later. The situation in Gaza, the | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
media, commentary and politicians are always talking about we need a | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
ceasefire, then we need to get back to peace negotiations and there | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
needs to be a long-term settlement. Isn't the reality on the ground | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
that for both sides, this is a situation just to manage, just to | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
get through this, there's no possibility of a comprehensive | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
peace agreement? Of course there is a possibility of a comprehensive | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
peace agreement because everyone knows what it would be, what you | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
mean is there is no leadership on either side to get to that. | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
desire? Yes and no leadership. There's only bun one leader who | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
might have been braid enough and that was Ariel Sharon and he went | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
into a coma. Binyamin Netanyahu is not the man to do it. The | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
Palestinians are heavily divided between the Palestinians in the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
West Bank and those in Gaza, so there's no leadership there, so no | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
opportunity whatsoever of going towards peace. There's bun a bright | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
spot though, the role of Egypt because there was a worry that the | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
new Egypt might be adding fuel to the flames of the Palestinian anger, | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
but actually Egypt's play add very important role in damping things | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
down this week so it's good if that continues. That's partly because | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
the Israelis announced the mobilisation of 75,000 troops last | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
Friday night and the President of Egypt knows the Army's in no | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
condition to to anything about the situation in Gaza? Yes and I also | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
think actually a mass seemed to come out of this with more to | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
celebrate which worries me. I think Abbas over on the West Bank needs | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
to be... Do you think so. It's been written out the script. Exactly, | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
which is why Hillary Clinton made a special effort to give them some | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
credit. I would suspect that Hamas has only signed a truce because | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
it's been very heavily degraded during its military operation. | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
agree, but... It's lost a lot of its weapons. But the talks going on | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
prior to the strike on Gaza were actually getting to those, you know, | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
they've actually got what they would have got from the | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
negotiations in the first place without giving an end date. The | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
Israelis in the negotiations want add ceasefire over a period and | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
they haven't got that. There were other issues the Israelis didn't | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
get. I think the Israelis will be pleased that they've taken out what | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
was one of the most dangerous terrorists and that may have been | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
the whole aim of it. Staying with the Middle East and | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
finishing up on Syria. Significant that William Hague says we | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
recognise the rebels now as the sole representative of the Syrian | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
people? I think so. He was very careful to say that this was a long | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
way short of changing the decision on arming the rebels. Yes. But it's | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
still a very significant moment. They don't have full backing of all | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
Syrian's opposition groups, so that is at least one major Western | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
nation choosing to put its eggs in a particular Syrian basket. Was tit | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
sensible thing to do? I think it's a gamble. I don't know what | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
justifys the gamble. I think the Government took a gamble over Libya | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
and that paid off. It may be that this gamble pays off, it may be | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
that Al-Sadr is on his way out and therefore we'll get some credit -- | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
Assad. If I were there, I would need a lot of persuasion that I | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
knew enough about the opposition to want to recognise it. Final word to | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
you Alan? Not sure Libya did work out successfully. I backed it, but | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
looking at what's happening now in Libya, you make the same mistake | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
and there are the wrong forces in that coalition. Difficult to tell. | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
William Hague knows more about the information and the intelligence on | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
this, but it's a gamable. Thank you very much. | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
Now having two fish wives on the sofa means we get to hear our fair | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
share of gossip. Michael told nae Alan's (tell you later) anyway, | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
hope it's healing nicely Alan, sounds nasty! Only when I laugh! | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
When rumours are rife on social media, is tittle-tattle too often | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
mistaken as fact? Keep it on the QT, This Week we are putting gossip in | :34:49. | :34:59. | |
:34:59. | :35:08. | ||
When the Internet jungle drums wrongly accused Lord McIcal pine of | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
being a paedophile, the consequences were serious. It gets | :35:12. | :35:20. | |
into your bones, makes you angry. - - Lord McAlpine. That's extremely | :35:20. | :35:30. | |
:35:30. | :35:31. | ||
bad for yourbgs getting angry. lawyer's promised action. It's not | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
stopped gossip surrounding Lyndon cross bi. What did he say in the | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
meetings with Boris? Whilst football was a buzz with | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
speculation before the sacking of Chelsea boss, Roberto demate owe, | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
perhaps hastening his demise. responsible for the result and | :35:52. | :36:00. | |
performance. I should take the blame. Rumours of streaking | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
journalists on Rihanna's tour plane helped her top the charts this week. | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
So, will the rumour mill grind to a halt now we know the damage it can | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
wreak, or is tittle-tattle always just too good to resist? # I heard | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
it through the grapevine... # We are joined by world famous | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
gossip columnist Richard Bacon. Has this been a watershed week in terms | :36:28. | :36:38. | |
:36:38. | :36:42. | ||
of all this unsubstantiated online gossip? Yes. By the way, Lord | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
McAlpine described why he doesn't like Chris Patten, but that's a | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
side issue. It's been a watershed moment for a number of reasons. One, | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
I think Twitter is essentially quite cruel. If you are not a | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
famous person, if you are not a politician, if you are not | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
promoting a business, I think it gives you the impression that you | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
are only talking to your friends and a lot of people only follow | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
their friends and their friends follow them. There will be lots of | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
people who named Lord McAlpine and connected him to that horrible | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
story in the pub with their friends. No action will be taken. I think a | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
lot of people thought Twitter was the same thing and this week they | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
learnt that it's not. Do you feel sorry for the ones that are now in | :37:25. | :37:35. | |
the McAlpine firing line? Sally Bercow, for example? No. She called | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
Lord McAlpine a "Big bully?" and adding innocent face to a libel | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
doesn't get around the law, we learnt that too. She should know | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
better, she had 50,000 followers. She understands that Twitter is | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
essentially broadcasting but I think a lot of people didn't know | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
that. There is an argument, I don't necessarily agree with it, but | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
there is an argument that says Newsnight start add rumour and some | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
people on Twitter who maybe don't understand libel repeat add rumour | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
that somebody else started. I know repeating a libel isn't a defence | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
but I can sort of see why it happened. A lot of Tweets relished | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
it. They loved it. They loved the fact that a Thatcherite Tory had | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
been named? Yes. Michael, where are you on this On that last point, you | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
are absolutely right. The wishful thinking point goes all the way | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
back to the BBC and back to Newsnight, it was wishful thinking, | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
part of what happened there. Of course, people have gossiped across | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
the centuries. I've gossiped. I've never gossiped on Twitter because I | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
don't Tweet. So to that extent, I can see that some people who've | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
Tweeted must feel they are hard done by because what they've done | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
is what people have done over the centuries but it's a different kind | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
of publishing. On the other hand, there are some people who're | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
manufacturing malice, they've got factories manufacturing malice and | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
they have to be hit really hard indeed. So if it has been a | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
threshold moment for the latter activity, it's been good. | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
agree? I think Sally Bercow was taking on what everyone was saying, | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
including television stations like the BBC and like ITV's good | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
monthing. But she breached another injunction after that, didn't she? | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
Let's not go on about it? Yeah... These names were being banded | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
around. The Daily Telegraph did a piece with the first ones, rather | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
unwittingly to reveal it was Lord McAlpine. Lord McAlpine was | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
incredibly dignified in the way he dealt with this. He was. For him to | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
be so magistrate none mouse about that, estron the extent of the | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
libel damages he's claiming from certain organisations -- for him to | :40:04. | :40:12. | |
be so magnanimous about that, even the extent of the libel damages. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
he right to pursue the people who libeled him on Twitter? I think | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
those people with small numbers of followers, he's asking for a bit of | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
an apology. A tokeling? Yes, a slap on the wrist. It's clever? Yes, I | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
think yes it's worth doing it because it's turning it into a | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
watershed moment and I think people's attitudes about Tweeting | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
and more crucially, re-Tweeting libelous comments will change as a | :40:41. | :40:48. | |
result of this. It's a nice remind they're some to have -- of the big | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
figures from the Thatcher era had a deft touch. Some have still got it. | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
Obviously not all! Daft political touch. Do you think | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
in the Twittersphere and social media in general, dining we'll see | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
a pulling back from the nastyness? I hope so. I made a documentary | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
about international trolls earlier this year. I would like that very | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
much. One of the solutions I think should be, which doesn't include | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
state intervention, if people were compelled to use their photo and | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
real name, a lot of that nastyness would dissipate because people are | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
emboldened by anonymity. If we could get rid of that, it would all | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
change. They use the anonymity don't they? They do. You said | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
earlier Michael we have seen this for years, but I think Twitter and | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
social media and fore-cum-s on the Mail and the Guardian, there is a | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
strange alchemy between a person, keyboard and anonymity which has | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
brought out a side of human nature which we have never seen before. | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
Actually, you see it in a car, someone makes gestures and yells | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
obscenities at people that somehow the car protects them. So much more | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
then if you are at a screen and on a keyboard, of course you feel | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
distant from the people that you are dishing it out to. That's a | :42:14. | :42:21. | |
brilliant analogy, it trns you into an irrational monster. But people | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
would always write it on toilet walls and stuff. They send it to | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
you though, they want you personally to see it unless someone | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
knows which toilet you use all the time, that's less effective, you | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
know. The other watershed moment I think is, well not watershed but it | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
was interesting this week BBC and ITV, that Phillip Schofield stunt | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
and I think ITV have handled it well. They don't get the attention | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
of the BBC do they, they really don't? That's my point. If you had | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
done that, or a presenter on BBC Breakfast would have done that, the | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
presenter would have resigned. I'm not saying I think that's what | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
should happen at ITV... But they are judged differently? Exactly. | :43:11. | :43:19. | |
Good to have you, Richard. Pleasure. That's it for - from us. We have | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
marked each other's cards for the Viennese waltz. We will leave you | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
with the sight that viewers of a gentle disposition may find | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
disturbing, secret footage of a certain Michael Portillo getting in | :43:34. | :43:40. |