06/06/2013 This Week


06/06/2013

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Doctor Who, join This Week for some political time travel. Ed Miliband

:00:22.:00:28.

tries to regenerate his party's policy on welfare. Union Lord, Bob

:00:28.:00:38.
:00:38.:00:39.

Crow takes a sonic screwdriver to the Labour leader's plans. I think

:00:39.:00:41.

Ed Miliband's proposals should be exterminated.

:00:41.:00:43.

If only time travel were available to politicians, maybe they'd do

:00:44.:00:47.

things differently. The Guardian's Nick Watt raids the Doctor Who

:00:47.:00:52.

dressing up box. Who on earth would fall for yet

:00:52.:01:01.

another tabloid sting? Politicians, that's who.

:01:01.:01:04.

And nobody actually knows the Doctor's real name, yet, thanks to

:01:04.:01:07.

Hollywood star Michael Douglas we seem to know everything else in the

:01:07.:01:11.

known universe. Actress and comedian Katy Brand is

:01:11.:01:21.
:01:21.:01:21.

the soul of This Week discretion. Don't worry, Andrew, what goes on in

:01:21.:01:24.

the studio stays in the studio. Forget looking for a woman Doctor

:01:24.:01:31.

Who. Isn't it time for a more mature Scotsman to get the role? Reverse

:01:31.:01:35.

the polarity of the neutron flow! Evenin' all. Welcome to the

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All-Party This Week Group for the Consumption of Blue Nun, once

:01:37.:01:40.

described by David Cameron as "the next big scandal waiting to happen",

:01:40.:01:46.

a slur we live down to almost every Thursday evening. But we find

:01:46.:01:48.

ourselves tonight playing second fiddle in the fiddling stakes to yet

:01:48.:01:51.

another tawdry tale of unprincipled politicians on the take, allegedly,

:01:51.:01:54.

with an MP and three Lords caught on camera this week, their snouts in

:01:54.:01:57.

the lobbying trough, allegedly, and the reputation of Parliament as a

:01:57.:02:00.

self-interested cabal of political prostitutes never more apt, not so

:02:00.:02:10.
:02:10.:02:10.

allegedly. As always in such matters, Downing Street has sprung

:02:10.:02:12.

into total inaction and announced a statutory register of officially

:02:12.:02:15.

sanctioned influence purchasers, which will be a huge boon to those

:02:15.:02:18.

on the take, because henceforth when politicians are approached by a

:02:18.:02:21.

pretty young thing offering loads of money and a beach front condo in

:02:21.:02:24.

Fiji, they'll be able to check if she really is a lobbyist by

:02:24.:02:34.

consulting the register. And if she's not on it, chances are she's

:02:34.:02:37.

from The Sunday Times, though given the number of times they've fallen

:02:37.:02:40.

for the same sting over the past 20 years, it's one of the great

:02:40.:02:43.

mysteries of modern politics that our politicians haven't worked that

:02:43.:02:50.

out already. The words "total numpties" come to mind. Speaking of

:02:50.:02:53.

those whose opinions could never be bought, because they're entirely

:02:53.:02:56.

worthless, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men whose off-screen

:02:56.:03:03.

relationship is a matter of intense speculation. I think of them as the

:03:03.:03:07.

Michael Douglas and Catherine Zeta Jones of late night political chat.

:03:07.:03:10.

I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, and, fresh off

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the 5.34 from Auchenshuggle, #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo choo"

:03:12.:03:22.
:03:22.:03:30.

Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Gay marriage has been

:03:30.:03:33.

passed by majorities in the House of Commons and the Lords, and the

:03:33.:03:37.

Church of England has accept that that is the will of Parliament and

:03:37.:03:41.

that is the end of the Church of England campaign. It is a good

:03:41.:03:44.

moment to reflect on the fact that whilst this has been presented as an

:03:44.:03:48.

issue that has caused problems for David Cameron and splits in the

:03:48.:03:52.

Conservative party, the problems are really with the Church of England

:03:52.:03:56.

and the Catholic church, who do not know how to deal with the issue of

:03:56.:04:02.

homosexuality and gay priest 's, and gay bishops and so. That is where

:04:02.:04:07.

the division is, and the churches are haemorrhaging membership like

:04:07.:04:10.

water disappearing from a bath. They do not have any way of dealing with

:04:10.:04:16.

the problem. The country as a whole has taken it in its stride. I think

:04:16.:04:20.

the country has. In that old-fashioned way, Parliament has

:04:20.:04:25.

voted. The majorities have been achieved in both houses. End of

:04:25.:04:33.

issue. Over. Mr Cameron taint -- came to the Commons on Monday to

:04:33.:04:36.

make a statement about Syria. I think the decision in the previous

:04:36.:04:41.

week was the wrong decision, to lift the arms embargo. I might be wrong

:04:41.:04:44.

about this but I thought I detected some tension between him and the

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Foreign Secretary. It is unusual for a Prime Minister to be talking about

:04:48.:04:53.

something that the Foreign Secretary carried off the previous week, and

:04:53.:05:00.

to not even mention the Foreign Secretary. Richard have been his

:05:00.:05:04.

triumph. The second thing is the atmosphere on his own backbenchers,

:05:04.:05:12.

which was very sombre. 80 Tory back rectors have signed up to say that

:05:12.:05:16.

if there is the decision to arm Syria, there is a recall of

:05:16.:05:23.

Parliament. -- backbenchers. He is in trouble with his backbenchers.

:05:23.:05:26.

may come back to that. For the moment...

:05:26.:05:29.

Now, I've a little secret for you. Come closer. While we've been

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off-air, old Choo Choo has had a rather special birthday. I know,

:05:32.:05:35.

it's hard to believe, judging by the stiffness of tonight's quiff, but

:05:35.:05:39.

he's getting on a bit and finally hit the big 60. So imagine his

:05:39.:05:42.

horror that in the very week he qualifies for some discounted perks,

:05:42.:05:45.

Ed Balls has threatened to start taking them away, starting with the

:05:45.:05:50.

winter fuel allowance. But who says Michael's new platinum senior

:05:50.:05:56.

railcard won't be next? And he wasn't the only one left angry by

:05:56.:06:01.

this attack on the well-off elderly. So, as a very special gift to the

:06:01.:06:03.

birthday boy, here's a kindred spirit, RMT union leader Bob Crow,

:06:03.:06:13.
:06:13.:06:34.

announced two major concerns, to cap for high earners that the fuel

:06:34.:06:38.

benefits will be stopped, and child benefit would be cut as well. I

:06:38.:06:44.

think that is completely wrong. I think people pay into a tax and

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National Insurance system and at the end of it they take the benefits

:06:46.:06:51.

they have paid in for. If people believe they are that well off that

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they cannot afford the benefits, they can give it to a charity, or

:06:54.:06:58.

not pick up the benefit. Once you bring in a net at a certain rate

:06:58.:07:01.

that you do not get it, the danger will be that they will bring it

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lower and lower and it will capture other groups of workers and they

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will not get the state in a fit either. -- they will not get the

:07:13.:07:19.

state benefit. I believe in universal benefits on the basis that

:07:19.:07:23.

you know what you are going to get. The National Health Service, whether

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a poor borate prints, you get the same treatment. The National Health

:07:28.:07:33.

Service, along with state benefits, should be the same for everyone. You

:07:33.:07:37.

pay into them when you work and you reap them when you do not. Once you

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start to alter that, you will see different abilities of people

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getting different benefits. It will mean a move towards purely means

:07:45.:07:49.

tested funding and benefits for people, and I think that is a --

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wrong for working men and women. It is the strong helping the week, that

:07:54.:07:58.

is what the benefit system was based on, and that is something I continue

:07:58.:08:05.

to argue for. My message to the Labour Party leadership is that they

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should stop what they are doing, cutting. The three parties are doing

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the same, trying to out cut each other, with disastrous consequences

:08:15.:08:20.

for working men and women. As far as I am concerned, it would be the end

:08:20.:08:24.

of universal benefits if Labour get into power and they go down the same

:08:24.:08:34.
:08:34.:08:37.

route as the Tories and Liberals over the last five years.

:08:37.:08:40.

Bob Crow, from the massive redevelopment of the King's Cross

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stationary in north London to our little studio in Westminster which

:08:45.:08:52.

needs redevelopment. Welcome to the programme. Alan Johnson, is Mr

:08:52.:08:56.

Miliband right or wrong to begin it rode in the principle of

:08:56.:09:02.

universality? He is right to live in the world of 2000 and 18. We had a

:09:02.:09:08.

discussion many moons ago about this, and I agree with the principle

:09:08.:09:12.

of universal payments, this social solidarity. But you cannot retract

:09:12.:09:16.

from the fact that if he was going to reintroduce child benefit for the

:09:16.:09:21.

well-off, it would be �2.3 billion. He has to get the balance between

:09:22.:09:26.

living standards, growth and deficit reduction. What Ed Balls and Ed

:09:26.:09:30.

Miliband were doing was to live in that world, not to fantasise about

:09:30.:09:36.

it, but to live in it in a realistic way. What do you say to that? Would

:09:36.:09:40.

it be sensible for Labour to go into the next election campaign pledging

:09:40.:09:45.

to spend over �2 billion to reinstate child benefit for the

:09:46.:09:52.

wealthy? It is where you start. Why don't they look at Amazon and

:09:52.:09:58.

Vodafone and the company is not paying tax, without starting here? I

:09:58.:10:02.

do not think it is a lot of money. That means every train driver in

:10:02.:10:06.

Britain will have their benefits cut. I do not believe they are

:10:06.:10:11.

massively highly paid for what they do. And once you start interfering,

:10:11.:10:16.

the reality will be at the end of the day, tax people more if need be.

:10:16.:10:20.

If they are reaping more money, a fair tax system. They have already

:10:20.:10:25.

lowered the tax rate for the highest from 50% down to 45%. Now you are

:10:25.:10:30.

going to middle as -- burners, working-class people, who will fall

:10:30.:10:36.

into that line. And it will dip and dip and get worse and worse. Even if

:10:36.:10:41.

you got Google and Amazon to pay more tax, would you use it to

:10:41.:10:46.

reinstate child benefit for higher earners? Let them pay more tax. The

:10:46.:10:52.

more you earn, the more you pay. You pay tax and by civilisation. Not

:10:52.:10:57.

saying to people on 37,000, it is going to stop. How much tax should

:10:57.:11:03.

somebody on 40,000 a year paid? Chancellor would have to work out

:11:03.:11:07.

what is coming in and going out. If you raise tax for the higher

:11:07.:11:11.

earners, whether they get it in child benefit or any other form of

:11:11.:11:16.

money, they have two pay higher tax on it. What you will see is people

:11:17.:11:21.

saying, surely National Insurance is an insurance policy. It was set up

:11:21.:11:31.
:11:31.:11:33.

so that those people who could afford it, as an insurance policy.

:11:34.:11:36.

You say to somebody, because you earn a lot of money, you cannot

:11:36.:11:38.

really claim the insurance back, because you have enough to pay if

:11:39.:11:42.

you lose your suitcase. Surely the more we pay in and the more you

:11:42.:11:46.

earn, the more you pay and redistribute the wealth. What do you

:11:46.:11:50.

say to the point that if the better off do not have a stake in the

:11:50.:11:57.

services provided, they will not care about the standard? That was

:11:57.:12:01.

the apartment for imposing it in the first race. As far as the winter

:12:01.:12:04.

fuel payments is concerned, that has not been eroded at the moment. Child

:12:04.:12:09.

benefit has gone. The point about winter fuel payments and child

:12:09.:12:15.

benefit is that they are not taxed. It is not taxable income. I do not

:12:15.:12:20.

know - when I was shadow chancellor I looked at this dash I know why we

:12:20.:12:24.

do not include it as taxable income, because politicians are scared of

:12:24.:12:31.

increasing taxes, but the point that Bob Crow makes is about income tax.

:12:31.:12:34.

The �200 winter fuel payments is not taxed and neither is child benefit.

:12:34.:12:38.

If you brought it into the tax system, you could have a universal

:12:38.:12:44.

system. You would roughly get your 2.3 billion. You would have a

:12:44.:12:47.

bureaucracy that gave out benefits with one hand and another

:12:47.:12:51.

bureaucracy that took them back with the other in the form of tax.

:12:51.:12:58.

is what you do anyway, in a sense. Is this good news or bad news for

:12:58.:13:04.

the Tories, that the Labour Party seems to be moving on the issue of

:13:04.:13:09.

welfare and universality? Both, quite honestly. It is bad news for

:13:09.:13:12.

the Tories in the sense that Labour looks less idiotic than it did a

:13:12.:13:18.

week ago. It is good news for the Tories in the sense that it is very

:13:18.:13:21.

difficult for Labour to talk about how cruel or oppressive the

:13:21.:13:24.

coalition is being when Labour has now moved a number of its policies

:13:24.:13:30.

in line with the government's policies. I think Alan is absolutely

:13:30.:13:34.

right that the Labour Party has moved to a position of greater

:13:34.:13:39.

realism. I was in this position as Shadow Chancellor. Whatever the

:13:39.:13:42.

government does is credible. Whatever the government does becomes

:13:42.:13:45.

the new reality. The opposition is always left in the position of

:13:45.:13:48.

looking incredible because it has not yet matched what the government

:13:48.:13:53.

has done. This is all silly and away because if Labour got into

:13:53.:13:56.

government everything would be different. Over a period of time

:13:56.:14:00.

they would rearrange the money as they thought right. But the game

:14:00.:14:03.

that the press always play with the opposition is, where would you find

:14:03.:14:08.

this 2.3 billion? You are expected to identify a series of cuts that

:14:08.:14:13.

would exactly make up this sum of money. It is a silly game, but it is

:14:13.:14:16.

a game from which oppositions do very badly and their credibility

:14:16.:14:24.

suffers a lot. Part of will Labour's problem when their own polling shows

:14:24.:14:29.

that they are not trusted on tax and spending. The public thinks they

:14:29.:14:34.

spent too much and that they are synonymous with tax. I don't quite

:14:34.:14:37.

understand how they make themselves more electable by going into the

:14:37.:14:41.

next election calling for more tax and more spend? No doubt they are

:14:41.:14:46.

going to keep the 50% reduction to 45. Alan's point... Higher than it

:14:46.:14:52.

was under Labour. Ed Balls in the speech said he put it at 50%.

:14:52.:14:55.

23409 said that for sure after the next election, he said if he was in

:14:55.:15:00.

power tomorrow he'd put it up to 50, but he's been a little bit more

:15:00.:15:04.

opaque. We'll wait and see. The jury's out on that one, in my view.

:15:04.:15:10.

It becomes the tax, as Alan said, they get wary of it. When people

:15:11.:15:14.

want to cut the tax for the rich people, people don't have a problem

:15:14.:15:20.

with that. People at the bottom of the scale, �37,000 is not a lot of

:15:20.:15:25.

money, it will take out most craftsmen and bishop who'd have to

:15:25.:15:30.

pay more as a result of it. People have seen an attack taking place on

:15:30.:15:33.

them over the last five to six years and that continuing under Labour as

:15:33.:15:38.

well. I think Bob does make a very valuable point that we are moving

:15:38.:15:42.

away from the contributory system. This is a real problem for the

:15:42.:15:48.

signal it sends to society. What it's saying is, there's no point you

:15:48.:15:51.

making any effort because at the end of the day if you have managed to

:15:51.:15:54.

save any money for yourself, we'll rake everything back from your

:15:54.:16:01.

benefits. The idea of having contributory benefits and child

:16:01.:16:04.

benefit which originated as the tax allowance which is why it's not a

:16:04.:16:07.

taxable benefit, the point of that was that if you provided more for

:16:07.:16:12.

yourself, these things would not be clawed back. We are sending a really

:16:12.:16:15.

terrible signal of discouraging people from being thrifty. There is

:16:15.:16:19.

a sense here in Labour bending to the way it's seen public opinion

:16:20.:16:25.

going, the welfare reforms whether you like them or not are popular

:16:25.:16:31.

with voters. People do think that Labour spent too much, they still

:16:31.:16:36.

don't trust Labour on the economy, even less than they trust the

:16:36.:16:40.

Government whose economic record is less than stellar. There is this

:16:40.:16:46.

repositioning which is being public opinion-led. No. The closer we got

:16:46.:16:49.

to 2015, the more the speeches are necessary to stop living in 2010 and

:16:49.:16:55.

start living in 2015. Mr Miliband told us the universal principle was

:16:55.:16:59.

the foundation of a fair society, the foundation, not that it's a good

:16:59.:17:03.

thing or we could change our mind, but at the moment I like it, the

:17:03.:17:07.

foundation now. Michael's right about oppositions. Oppositions do

:17:07.:17:12.

U-turns all the time. Look BAbling to what the Conservatives said about

:17:12.:17:16.

the national minimum wage or to about tuition fees, oppositions say

:17:16.:17:20.

all kinds of things when they are opposing things. Didn't say tuition

:17:20.:17:24.

fees were the foundation of a modern society? But we are not getting rid

:17:24.:17:27.

of all universal payments. We are talking about the top rate and we

:17:27.:17:34.

are talking about 2. 3 billion. That's eye-watering. Child benefit,

:17:34.:17:40.

you are not talking about top rate taxpayers. We have been told over

:17:40.:17:43.

the last 15 years that the state can't afford to give people

:17:43.:17:49.

pensions. Therefore you have got to save, you have got to have

:17:49.:17:54.

occupational pensions, then someone saves all their life out their own

:17:54.:17:57.

money rather than spend it, when they are retired they are told you

:17:57.:18:01.

are going to reap the benefits you are going to have, totally wrong and

:18:01.:18:07.

unfair. With have to move on. Thank you. It may be late, but don't even

:18:07.:18:11.

think of going to bed. This time last week, our Prime Minister call

:18:11.:18:17.

me ravy Davy was still having it large on a podium in Ibiza, without

:18:17.:18:21.

any hope whatsoever from Gideon's marching powder. The very least you

:18:21.:18:26.

can do is stay up late with us tonight. Katie Brand is here to talk

:18:26.:18:30.

about the need for discretion. For those who insist on sharing your

:18:30.:18:34.

inner most thoughts and with almost no quality control at all, you will

:18:34.:18:39.

find brain dumps galore on the Twitter, Fleecebook and goad old

:18:39.:18:44.

interweb. There is an old saying that the Shadow Cabinet never ever

:18:44.:18:48.

uses, two Eds are better than one. BOOM.

:18:48.:18:56.

Has this week proved the doubters wrong? Are messer Ed Miliband and

:18:56.:19:01.

Balls coming to terms with things? Are they finally ready to take the

:19:01.:19:04.

so-called difficult decisions that politicians are forever patting

:19:04.:19:08.

themselves on the back about? We are not so sure. We turn to the

:19:08.:19:18.
:19:18.:19:18.

guardians for their thoughts and this roundup of the political week.

:19:18.:19:23.

What a gorgeous day. I think I'd better make the most of this rare

:19:24.:19:33.
:19:34.:19:44.

sunshine and tend to a sadly Well, it seems I'm not the only

:19:44.:19:54.
:19:54.:20:01.

member of the village who needs to Yes, you would have thought our MPs

:20:01.:20:05.

and peers would have learned by now that when a friendly young person

:20:05.:20:08.

laughs at their jokes and offers them a wad of cash, they are

:20:08.:20:13.

probably a journalist. Not so for three noble Lords and one honourable

:20:13.:20:18.

member who have inflicted immense damage on Parliament and reinforced

:20:18.:20:21.

the view that some members of the governing elite believe there's one

:20:21.:20:26.

rule for them and another for more modest people such as us

:20:26.:20:32.

bee-keepers. We are working flat out to cross the

:20:32.:20:36.

Is and dot the Ts on this legislation dealing with the

:20:36.:20:39.

influence of nonpolitical parties as far as lobbying is concerned and

:20:39.:20:43.

also in terms of support for campaigns at a constituency level

:20:43.:20:53.

and we'll publish the proposals very shortly.

:20:53.:20:59.

You wait ages for a set piece speech and then two come along at once.

:20:59.:21:04.

At least it's given me more time to keep these beauties happy. Elements

:21:04.:21:09.

of the Labour tribe will be less happy as the two Eds move the party

:21:09.:21:13.

away from attacking cuts to accepting most of them. We'll

:21:13.:21:17.

inherit a substantial deficit, we'll have to govern with much less money

:21:17.:21:22.

around, we'll need to show an iron discipline. It was meant to be Ed

:21:22.:21:26.

Miliband's week, but David Cameron ran rings around him after the

:21:27.:21:31.

Labour Leader declined to acknowledge that the party has now

:21:31.:21:35.

quietly shelved its opposition to the child benefit changes.

:21:35.:21:39.

I know I've been the one on holiday in Ibiza, but they've been the ones

:21:39.:21:45.

taking, how can I put it, Mr Speaker, policy altering substances

:21:45.:21:49.

as last week they were in fave of child benefit, now they are against

:21:49.:21:58.

With a hive of Labour activity, Ed Miliband struck back when he

:21:58.:22:01.

announced plans for a three-year ceiling on some elements of welfare

:22:01.:22:05.

spending. The Next Labour Government will have less money to spend. If we

:22:05.:22:11.

are going to turn our economy around, protect our NHS and build a

:22:11.:22:16.

stronger country, we'll have to be laser focussed on every single pound

:22:16.:22:22.

we spend. Social security spending vital as it

:22:22.:22:25.

is cannot be exempt from that discipline.

:22:25.:22:29.

Labour is hoping to restore its economic credibility by showing that

:22:29.:22:34.

it too is prepared to take tough decisions to drive down the deficit.

:22:34.:22:39.

But does its reluctance to spell out in full the consequences of its

:22:39.:22:43.

decision show that Labour has still not quite moved away from a belief

:22:43.:22:53.
:22:53.:23:03.

that in the end spending is always There was rare yueventy among it's

:23:03.:23:08.

squabbling parties when peers turned out in large numbers to defeat an

:23:08.:23:13.

attempt to kill the bill equalising same sex marriage. Many peers have

:23:13.:23:18.

real problems with this, but they were even more concerned by an

:23:18.:23:22.

attempt by one of their number to try and destroy the Bill just two

:23:22.:23:27.

weeks after MPs gave it their overwhelming approval.

:23:27.:23:32.

Gay men and women have waited for far too long to have the same rights

:23:32.:23:36.

as straight married couples. It's the process by which this Bill has

:23:36.:23:41.

been handled is inappropriate and has left the country divided,

:23:41.:23:45.

bewildered and puzzled. I fear for the future of family life if this

:23:45.:23:49.

Bill is pass and I should certainly vote for the aid mendment. People

:23:50.:23:53.

who've been life long Conservatives and have been the people who

:23:53.:23:58.

actually did the work on the voluntary basis for the party are

:23:58.:24:03.

simply tearing up their membership cards.

:24:03.:24:06.

Little did David Cameron realise that he'd stir up a swarm on this

:24:06.:24:12.

one. He had hoped to reach out to centre ground voters but has ended

:24:12.:24:17.

up alienating vast numbers of traditionalists. Nigel Farage will

:24:17.:24:21.

be chuckling all the way to the ballot box.

:24:21.:24:25.

The Prime Minister doesn't just have a problem with his own party. Nick

:24:25.:24:30.

Clegg showed the coalition is now reduced to hand-to-hand combat when

:24:30.:24:34.

he vetoed Tory plans on childcare. A sting in the tail from the coalition

:24:34.:24:38.

partners. Now, I think it's time to enjoy the

:24:38.:24:48.
:24:48.:24:53.

Our very own little honey there, Nick Watt. And Miranda Green is here

:24:53.:24:59.

too. Good evening.How serious are these Stigs? I think the problem is

:24:59.:25:04.

the country's hasn't recovered from the trauma of the expenses scandal

:25:04.:25:08.

so you have to deal with some of the smaller opportunities to clean up

:25:08.:25:11.

Parliament, otherwise it looks as though you just don't care. Even

:25:11.:25:15.

though it's the case that there aren't exactly protesters demanding

:25:15.:25:21.

a lobbyist register, you know, "when do we want it now" et cetera...

:25:21.:25:24.

don't think that's going to happen. It's not, but you have to take

:25:24.:25:28.

seriously the idea that the country's lost faith in Parliament

:25:28.:25:31.

as an honest place. No doubt about that. The problem is that I don't

:25:31.:25:36.

understand how a register helps? It's beside the point. First of all,

:25:36.:25:41.

it's perfectly clear that things of which these people are accused would

:25:41.:25:45.

be offensive. They would be against the rules and they would probably

:25:45.:25:49.

certainly lead to expulsion and possibly suspension from Parliament

:25:49.:25:55.

and so on. It's clear that the clues are already in place. Secondly --

:25:55.:25:58.

rules are already in place. These people were all caught by a sting,

:25:58.:26:04.

in other words there wasn't a real lobbyist at all. Journalists posing.

:26:04.:26:07.

Drait creating the register has nothing to do with what has just

:26:07.:26:10.

happened. As you said at the beginning, if you create the

:26:10.:26:15.

register, you simply allow people to identify more easily those who are

:26:15.:26:20.

genuine lobbyists and journalists. Now a fundamental point - all

:26:20.:26:25.

politics rests upon lobbying. The principal rooms are lobbies, the

:26:25.:26:29.

reason they exist is to allow the public to come into Parliament and

:26:29.:26:31.

visit their Members of Parliament and they meet them in a place called

:26:32.:26:36.

a lobby, which is the origin of the term and the interchange between

:26:36.:26:39.

people who have interests which need to be considered or even protected

:26:40.:26:43.

by Parliament and the people in Parliament is fundamental to the

:26:43.:26:47.

democratic process. Since time in memorial to smooth the interface

:26:47.:26:51.

between the public and the different vested interests and the Members of

:26:51.:26:54.

Parliament, there have been people who undertake lobbying and lobbying

:26:54.:26:59.

can be a very respectable thing. Without lobbying, politics wouldn't

:26:59.:27:08.

function. Thank you for that! Very good. I agree.Political science

:27:08.:27:14.

there. You will get an O-level in it, oh, you don't get those any

:27:14.:27:19.

more. I made a joke that you would think by now politicians would work

:27:19.:27:25.

out of a lobby offering you money is a journal itself. However, it maub

:27:25.:27:28.

just suggests it's a widespread practice because if it wasn't

:27:28.:27:32.

happening a lot, then the politicians would say, that's

:27:32.:27:38.

unusual, they are offering me money, better be careful here. So is it

:27:38.:27:44.

happening a lot? It's never happened to me in my 16 years. You have never

:27:44.:27:48.

been approached by a lobbyist? been approached by a lobbyist

:27:48.:27:52.

saying, if I give you this money will you raise this question. I went

:27:52.:27:57.

to an event, Diabeties UK, a very good event it was as well, and they

:27:57.:28:01.

were lobbying and drawing my attention to some points. Is it

:28:01.:28:06.

happening or is it just journalists? The difficulty for the Bath is what

:28:06.:28:10.

Cameron promised and what he said about this being the next great

:28:10.:28:14.

scandal and a register of lob Iain Duncan Smiths. I can't get excited

:28:14.:28:18.

about a register of lobbyists because no lobbyist was involve and

:28:18.:28:22.

the register of lobbyists Act would have done nothing to change that

:28:22.:28:25.

sting. It's about arm airians not breaking the bloody rules of

:28:25.:28:30.

Parliament. Well, it is, but there is also a transparency issue, that's

:28:30.:28:35.

what the register is supposed to be about. You are right, charities

:28:35.:28:38.

lobby on their pet projects and policy all the time, but everyone

:28:38.:28:44.

knows what they want and they are perfectly open about it. The concern

:28:44.:28:48.

about the intermediaries is some act for different clients and it can be

:28:49.:28:55.

shadowy, so there is a desire to... It will make Leveson look like a

:28:55.:29:00.

picnic if you try to decide what is a lobbyist. Alan's put his finger

:29:00.:29:05.

on, people like Diabeties UK, they are lobbyists. I should think there

:29:05.:29:09.

will be thousands of them. They don't necessarily use lobbying

:29:09.:29:15.

companies, they would lobby themselves. Every big company has a

:29:15.:29:20.

Department of Affairs which is essentially the lobbying. There is

:29:20.:29:26.

the venal and corrupt but in politics, when this happens, Mr

:29:26.:29:31.

Mercer, whatever, he'll still be an MP for another two year, it seems

:29:31.:29:35.

almost impossible to get rid of anybody from the Lord's, some have

:29:35.:29:39.

gone to jail and they are back in the Lords. People think you look

:29:39.:29:43.

after yourselves? That does need to be addressed, particularly in the

:29:44.:29:48.

Lords. We could have made progress on that, except we were looking to

:29:48.:29:52.

make the Lords more democratic and I supported that. There was the Lord

:29:52.:29:56.

Steel Bill looking to do that. Maybe we'll return to that because there

:29:56.:30:01.

was wide support for that. Very difficult to do it in the Commons

:30:01.:30:06.

where you are by very chug of the fact you are elected you aranceable

:30:06.:30:11.

to constituents and there's a lot of difficulty in differentiating

:30:11.:30:15.

between your constituents who want yew out because you have done

:30:15.:30:18.

something wrong and those who don't like the judgment you have taken

:30:18.:30:28.
:30:28.:30:29.

whether on gay marriages or whatever. We should revisit the idea

:30:29.:30:33.

of rooting out the bad barons. have the headline already. The

:30:33.:30:38.

policy follows! It is outrageous that people can continue sitting in

:30:38.:30:42.

the House of Lords. And the coalition is going to add another 50

:30:42.:30:48.

of them. While it has been impossible to change the Lords,

:30:48.:30:51.

unfortunately governments have had to stuff them with their own people

:30:51.:30:59.

to make the Parliamentary process work to deliver their commitments.

:30:59.:31:02.

There was cross-party consensus on reducing the size of the Lords. They

:31:02.:31:06.

got it down to 450 and now it has shot up again and we have lost all

:31:06.:31:11.

of the gains we made. Nick Clegg speaking of the coalition, got his

:31:11.:31:17.

way childcare reform. Yes, he did. It is one of these coalition

:31:17.:31:21.

problems where they should have had the argument much earlier. It is

:31:21.:31:26.

embarrassing for it to have got to this stage. I think it is the right

:31:26.:31:30.

decision. It is a very bad policy. If the conservative side of the

:31:30.:31:33.

coalition want to go ahead with it, they can put it in their manifesto

:31:33.:31:38.

and see if parents will vote for the chance that their child is the one

:31:38.:31:41.

at the back of the class choking on an apple with nobody noticing

:31:41.:31:47.

because there are too many toddlers running around at the same time.

:31:47.:31:50.

While we were fair, there was the appalling event in Woolwich. What

:31:50.:31:57.

are your thoughts? It was appalling. The one thing I raised about this

:31:57.:32:02.

was the communications data Bill. Not as a knee-jerk reaction, for

:32:02.:32:08.

goodness sake. We have been talking about this since 2008. The coalition

:32:09.:32:13.

agreed to put forward a draft bill in the Queen 's speech last year. A

:32:13.:32:16.

very good cross-party committee suggested amendments to it that said

:32:16.:32:20.

that legislation was necessary, and it vanishes from the Queens speech.

:32:20.:32:27.

This is serious stuff. The nature of coalition politics. You would think,

:32:27.:32:31.

knowing there is such a gap in the ability of security forces to track

:32:31.:32:39.

these people, but it would be a matter of consensus. Michael.

:32:39.:32:44.

things stood out for me, one was the women who intervened at the time of

:32:44.:32:47.

the murder with extraordinary courage. And then apparently in two

:32:47.:32:53.

cases they quietly went home. And after a few days, the dignity of the

:32:53.:33:02.

family, who said that he would not have wished anybody to be harmed,

:33:02.:33:06.

because by that time, there were a lot of incidents being committed

:33:06.:33:11.

against Muslim people and institutions. I spoke to Jim Murphy

:33:11.:33:17.

on the Sunday politics last weekend, shadow defence secretary, and he

:33:17.:33:20.

spoke quite kindly towards the idea of what the critics call the

:33:21.:33:24.

snooper's charter. The Conservatives want it and Labour is leading that

:33:24.:33:30.

way as well. Is this another cause of coalition tension, because the

:33:31.:33:38.

Lib Dems are stopping it? It is a serious point of tension. This idea

:33:38.:33:41.

of potential excessive intrusiveness, and being too willing

:33:41.:33:46.

to believe what the security forces or police say they need, this is a

:33:46.:33:50.

hot button issue for Lib Dem activist and it is very delicate

:33:50.:33:53.

phonic leg. But I agree that this is a very serious issue and they should

:33:54.:34:01.

look at what is genuinely needed. Let's apply the common sense from

:34:01.:34:06.

our last discussion. The suspects were well-known to security forces

:34:06.:34:12.

anyway. And radicalised at college, which is the most awful thing about

:34:12.:34:18.

it. Thank you for being with us. Now, we like to think we're an open

:34:18.:34:21.

book here on This Week, rather than an open wound, as our sinister BBC

:34:21.:34:25.

handlers would have you believe. And to prove our point, I can tonight

:34:25.:34:27.

exclusively reveal that my invitation to the Bilderberg slumber

:34:27.:34:34.

party in Watford has somehow got lost in the post. Alan can

:34:34.:34:37.

exclusively reveal that he's stopped receiving death threats from a

:34:37.:34:43.

certain Ms Diane Abbott of Hackney. The restraining order helped. And

:34:43.:34:46.

Michael will exclusively reveal to everyone in the green room after the

:34:46.:34:50.

show, and after a couple of glasses of the blue stuff, his very latest

:34:50.:34:56.

chest tattoo. Think tribal leader meets sailor boy, apparently. So, in

:34:56.:34:59.

the spirit of full disclosure - good name for an autobiography - we

:35:00.:35:03.

thought it was time to reveal all and put discretion in this week's

:35:03.:35:13.
:35:13.:35:26.

Coronation and in that time she has not just been the head of state, but

:35:26.:35:32.

the soul of discretion, unlike those in Westminster, yet again, with an

:35:32.:35:35.

MP and three piers being less than discreet about their personal

:35:35.:35:45.
:35:45.:36:01.

Khan, urged parents to stop giving their kids and unfair advantage, but

:36:01.:36:05.

failed to declare that his daughters were employed in companies he had a

:36:05.:36:09.

stake in. For those in the public eye, where do you draw the line

:36:09.:36:14.

between revealing too much or too little information? Sometimes a

:36:14.:36:17.

revelation can highlight an important issue, whether it be

:36:17.:36:20.

Michael Douglas' slip of the tongue about sexually transmitted disease,

:36:20.:36:25.

or Stephen Fry's candid admission of attempted suicide and mental

:36:25.:36:32.

illness. I took a huge number of pills and a huge amount of vodka and

:36:32.:36:38.

the mixture made my body convulse and I broke for ribs. Perhaps the

:36:38.:36:43.

therapist was my couch is the best ways of all, a safe space where

:36:43.:36:53.
:36:53.:36:58.

anyone can be as indiscreet as they has you on the therapist's couch

:36:58.:37:06.

telling secrets. Yes. The idea is basically that it is famous women

:37:06.:37:16.

throughout history being played by a huge number of comic actors in an

:37:16.:37:19.

imagined therapist's chair. It has gone down well and everyone is

:37:19.:37:25.

pleased with it. At one end of the spectrum, this week we had Michael

:37:25.:37:29.

Douglas telling us more than we would ever really want to know. At

:37:29.:37:32.

the other end, you have the Queen, who has never given an interview in

:37:32.:37:40.

60 years. Yes.The Queen does not have to give interviews. Most people

:37:40.:37:46.

in public life do have to do something. I guess if you look at

:37:46.:37:51.

the dissemination of information as leveraged for power, there is no

:37:51.:37:59.

need for the Queen to have two give or receive. She does not have to

:37:59.:38:03.

gossip, does not have to maintain power in her own environment,

:38:03.:38:07.

because she is the Queen. She does not need to get Charles over and say

:38:07.:38:11.

that Kate said Camilla was ugly. She does not have to broker power,

:38:11.:38:17.

because she is the Queen. As you go further down the ranks, people start

:38:17.:38:20.

to use information and that is when people become indiscreet, because

:38:20.:38:25.

you can gain power over people. indiscretion become part of the

:38:25.:38:30.

modern cult of celebrity? One element of celebrity, as we have

:38:30.:38:35.

seen with Michael Douglas, is to be indiscreet. Michael Douglas is a

:38:35.:38:41.

list, Hollywood royalty. He does not have to give out information like

:38:41.:38:46.

that. If you set what he has done against what Angelina Jolie did, she

:38:46.:38:49.

actually gained more power and prestige and respect by giving an

:38:49.:38:55.

equally intimate account of some medical procedure. With Michael

:38:55.:38:59.

Douglas, it seems to have slightly backfired. I certainly do not want

:38:59.:39:05.

to be a fly on the wall in their bedroom. That would be very

:39:05.:39:10.

indiscreet! Do you think indiscretion is something we live

:39:10.:39:16.

with more because of celebrity culture? I think that is right, but

:39:16.:39:21.

I think sexism has been applied to Michael Douglas. I do not see why

:39:21.:39:25.

Angelina Jolie is praised for what she said and Michael Douglas is in

:39:25.:39:28.

some way condemned for what he said. They are both about things that

:39:28.:39:34.

happened. I don't know if anyone condemned Michael Douglas, apart

:39:34.:39:40.

from possibly Catherine Zito Jones. The rather snotty way that Andrew

:39:40.:39:47.

has introduced the thing this evening. Michael Douglas, having

:39:47.:39:50.

apparently said this, when it got into the public domain he said, no,

:39:50.:39:55.

I did not say it, I have been misreported. I have heard that

:39:55.:39:59.

before. And then the who did the interview released the tape and what

:39:59.:40:05.

he said was exactly what he said. That is why we would all put

:40:05.:40:09.

Angelina Jolie in a different category from the Michael Douglas.

:40:09.:40:16.

All I am saying is that if the idea is that we are going to help the

:40:16.:40:22.

poor to understand that if we have these medical problems we should be

:40:22.:40:25.

honest about them, if we are going to educate people about things that

:40:25.:40:28.

can go wrong in life, Michael Douglas has helped us to do that. On

:40:28.:40:32.

the subject of the Queen, the great thing about the Queen is that you

:40:32.:40:35.

might think somebody who has been discreet for 60 years is very dull.

:40:35.:40:39.

The magnificent thing about the Queen, who I have met on a couple of

:40:39.:40:46.

occasions, is that she... Not that you want to name drop, as I said to

:40:46.:40:52.

the Queen last week! It is remarkable that somebody who is not

:40:52.:41:02.
:41:02.:41:03.

dial has managed for 60 years not to get into trouble. Just one second.

:41:03.:41:10.

The whole issue... If you are a public figure, you have to give

:41:10.:41:17.

interviews. Exact lead. Celebrity culture is driven by a 24-7 News,

:41:17.:41:21.

magazines full of this gossip. If you give interviews, you will

:41:21.:41:25.

eventually make an indiscretion. Green macro it is no longer chip

:41:25.:41:34.

paper. It is on the internet forever. You want to be very careful

:41:34.:41:38.

about what you say. You do wonder why public figures do not engage the

:41:38.:41:44.

brain before speaking. James Karin made a speech about not giving

:41:44.:41:49.

people a leg up and it turns out his kids are working in his company. --

:41:49.:41:55.

James Karin. Maybe he has never met them before. Maybe it was a surprise

:41:55.:41:58.

to him. That did seem an extraordinary oversight on his

:41:58.:42:05.

part. Is it right that it is in your contract that every week we have to

:42:05.:42:12.

mention your memoirs. It is in my contract, yes, and you have two say

:42:12.:42:19.

it is available in all good book shops. You wrote very movingly and

:42:19.:42:22.

fascinatingly about your family. Did you ever think that was indiscreet?

:42:22.:42:28.

It is a good point. It is a long time ago. It finishes when I am 18.

:42:28.:42:33.

It is when you write recent events that you take that risk. Also, if

:42:33.:42:36.

you are opening up that part of your life, are you fair game for the

:42:36.:42:42.

whole of your life? I hope not. is a weak argument. There were

:42:42.:42:47.

journalists saying at the levels and enquiry that people love to use

:42:47.:42:55.

their family when they want to. us something indiscreet. I will tell

:42:55.:43:02.

you afterwards, but that is about the Queen. Tell Michael. I will be

:43:02.:43:05.

surprised. That's your lot for tonight, folks.

:43:05.:43:07.

But not for us, because it's swivel-eyed loons night at Annabel's

:43:07.:43:10.

and Michael's promised to man the tombola. First prize, a signed photo

:43:10.:43:13.

of former PM John Major. Second prize, two signed photos of former

:43:13.:43:18.

PM John Major. Third prize, three signed photos... Oh, you get the

:43:18.:43:21.

idea. But we leave you tonight with Labour's latest proposals on

:43:21.:43:24.

welfare. After the Prime Minister claimed Ed Miliband had been taking

:43:24.:43:26.

policy-altering substances, Labour released a special policy video to

:43:26.:43:32.

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