18/07/2013 This Week


18/07/2013

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More drama in the NHS, as politicians clash over who's to

:00:15.:00:19.

blame for failing hospitals. Paediatrician and CBeebies doctor

:00:19.:00:29.
:00:29.:00:31.

Ranj Singh gives us his diagnosis. No recent government has a clean

:00:31.:00:35.

bill of health when it comes to interfering with the NHS. It is time

:00:35.:00:38.

to put patients before politics. With public health U-turns on

:00:38.:00:41.

tobacco and alcohol, The Economist's Anne McElvoy asks whether the nanny

:00:41.:00:49.

state always knows best. They have been squabbling like toddlers at the

:00:49.:00:54.

dispatch 's, but it is not about the policy. All that any mum wants to

:00:54.:00:57.

say is, it is his fault. And with the sport of athletics on

:00:57.:01:00.

life support following yet more drug-taking, Uri Geller talks about

:01:00.:01:07.

the power of reputation. reputation is being a mind-reader,

:01:07.:01:10.

but there is much more to it than meets the eye.

:01:10.:01:14.

Shall we turn off the life support machine and go on holiday? Matron, I

:01:14.:01:24.

Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. And thank the Lord - Patten - for

:01:24.:01:30.

his merciful ways. We come to the final show of the series. I suspect,

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dear viewer, this is as much a relief to you as it is to us. But at

:01:35.:01:39.

least we get paid, even if it is only a pittance, the small change

:01:39.:01:43.

left down the sofa by the latest BBC executive to trouser a massive pay

:01:43.:01:46.

off. But you deserve more, a princely sum, for having to sit

:01:46.:01:49.

through the usual self-serving drivel from the worst shirts in

:01:49.:01:54.

showbusiness. But I digress. It's often said, mostly by us when we

:01:54.:01:58.

can't think of anything else to say, that the problem with today's

:01:58.:02:01.

politicians is they don't actually believe in anything. Remember the

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good old days, we drone, when Labour believed in representing the

:02:04.:02:07.

interests of the plebs while the Tories looked after the maters and

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paters of the thick poshos on Made in Chelsea, and the Lib Dems

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believed in representing the interests of dope-smoking stoners

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with a kinky interest in proportional representation? But

:02:19.:02:22.

this week there stepped forward a politician who does believe in

:02:22.:02:24.

something, faith-based Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan

:02:24.:02:26.

Smith, who, when challenged to provide evidence to show his

:02:27.:02:30.

benefits cap would work, dismissed the need for anything so grubby and

:02:30.:02:37.

empirical. "I have a belief I am right," he exclaimed. Of course, he

:02:37.:02:40.

couldn't actually prove it was working but no-one could disprove it

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wasn't either, which sort of puts the benefit cap on a par with God.

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Or the Loch Ness monster. Or both. Speaking of those who make it up as

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they go along, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two mini heat waves.

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Think of them as the hot flush and hot lips of late night political

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chat. I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, and

:03:02.:03:12.
:03:12.:03:16.

#sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo.

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Michael, your moment of the week. Molly the dog has woken up to hear

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it. I bumped into a field marshal, a former chief of the defence staff,

:03:29.:03:33.

who agrees with me that we do not need an independent nuclear

:03:33.:03:38.

deterrent. He asked me how we get politicians off the hook. It

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occurred to me this week that the way is what the Liberal Democrats

:03:41.:03:45.

are proposing. The Liberal Democrats, like all politicians,

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will not go the whole hog and say, let's get rid of nuclear weapons.

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But they are saying, let's save half the cost and only have nuclear

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weapons deployed at sea for half the time, when we think the threat is

:03:58.:04:03.

rising. And I think, over a period of time, this would get the

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politicians of the hook. They would save half the cost. I am glad the

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field marshal agrees with you, unlike the secretaries of State for

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defence who do not agree with you. Among secretaries of state, I am in

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a minority. Among Field marshals, I am not sure. Field marshals do not

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have the deterrent. It is the Navy. Well spotted. The acquittal of

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George Zimmerman. In the United States. Here is a young black kid

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walking back from a store, completely innocent, gets attacked

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by a guy with a gun, virtually every June anti-. He has nothing. It takes

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the police 44 days to charge him, because they say that self

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protection law did not allow them to prosecute, and then he is acquitted

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of murder and of manslaughter as well. America has not just got its

:05:02.:05:07.

first lack resident in Obama, but its first black Attorney General,

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and there are many who feel it is still back in the 1950s, when that

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kind of thing could happen. I would have thought the reaction would be

:05:17.:05:23.

much worse. So would I. We grew up looking at black-and-white film of

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all kinds of things happening. just that. But Rodney King provoked

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several days of riots. It is great that has not happened, but it is

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still in competence of or how they could reach that decision. It is

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amazing. Now, what's the closest thing we

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have to a national religion? Other than women's football. The NHS, of

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course. Politically, it's been untouchable, impossible to

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criticise. Has that all changed this week? Labour and Tory front benches

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lashed out, following a report into failing hospitals this week, trying

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to blame each other. But is it not the role of a candid friend to be

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critical? And what do the medical profession think? We turned to NHS

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:06:17.:06:39.

doctor and CBeebies presenter Ranj the opening ceremony of the

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Olympics. The National Health Service was celebrated as a national

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treasure. There were scenes of children jumping on beds with nurses

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dancing around them, almost like a scene from my TV show. One year on,

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the rose tinted picture of the NHS is shattered. This week the

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government announced it was placing 11 hospital trust is into special

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measures because of major failings, such as staffing problems, poor care

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and weak leadership. As a doctor who worked in one of those trusts, I

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must say I am not surprised. Despite high levels of dedication and

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determination, staff are overstretched, some too exhausted

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and too scared to speak up. Others have fallen into the comfort of

:07:26.:07:32.

complacency. More and more money is sucked up by managers, bureaucracy

:07:32.:07:36.

and consultants, and leaders appear complacent, or even careless. This

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is not limited to a small number of hospitals. It is happening up and

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down the country. Watching political parties clash over who is to blame

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for failing hospitals is a depressing sight, but politicians

:07:49.:07:54.

have never been able to leave the NHS alone. Labour brought in endless

:07:54.:07:57.

targets which meant some hospitals rushed patients through to meet

:07:57.:08:03.

them. And they set up the Care Quality Commission, which in itself

:08:03.:08:08.

seems unfit for purpose. Despite promising no more top-down

:08:08.:08:10.

reorganisation of the NHS, the current government is doing just

:08:10.:08:18.

that. That is the diagnosis, but what would I prescribe? Changes to

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the NHS do need to be made but they should be dictated by the needs of

:08:22.:08:26.

patients, not politicians. Anyone who has worked in the NHS will know

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there is a great deal of wastage and efficiencies can be made. It drives

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me mad to see nurses filling in endless reports and forms and not

:08:35.:08:40.

having time to do their job. It is not about nurses being too clever to

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care, but about not having enough time. We also need to think about

:08:45.:08:49.

our expectations and what the NHS can provide. That might involve a

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radical revision of how we meet those needs. In children's care, my

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specialism, the future is likely to involve the development of better

:08:56.:09:03.

specialist units that -- supporting fewer improved satellite sites, and

:09:03.:09:07.

better integration into primary care. We are going to have to learn

:09:07.:09:10.

to live with less, including politicians, and they will have to

:09:10.:09:15.

be brave enough to back the streamlining of services, even if it

:09:15.:09:20.

involves closures within their constituencies. I love and respect

:09:20.:09:25.

our NHS. We all want it to be like the picture portrayed in the Olympic

:09:25.:09:28.

opening ceremony, but we are going to have to be honest about the bad

:09:28.:09:33.

it's as well as the good. Until we acknowledge the floors, we cannot

:09:33.:09:37.

make the improvements that are necessary. But one thing is for

:09:37.:09:41.

sure, if we carry on as we are, there is a very real risk that the

:09:41.:09:44.

NHS will burn out. And from the View Tube garden

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overlooking the Olympic Park to our own little garden of Eden in the

:09:48.:09:56.

heart of Westminster, Dr Ranj joins us now. You worked at the Medway

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Foundation Trust. Yes.You said you are not surprised it is being put

:10:02.:10:06.

into special measures. Why are doctors, clinicians and bureaucrats

:10:06.:10:11.

working there, why are they scared to speak out? I would not say I am

:10:11.:10:15.

an expert on why they are, and I am not a politician but I do work in

:10:15.:10:19.

the coal face, and I am one of the people who has been involved and

:10:19.:10:24.

affected by everything that is going on with the NHS. Why are they scared

:10:24.:10:29.

to speak out? The biggest fear is that no one is listening. Not just

:10:29.:10:34.

that no one is listening, but that they will be suppressed. We are

:10:34.:10:38.

listening now, but is it too late? Is there still enough that we can

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do? To be honest, people need to listen, but there is listening and

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then there is acting on what people are saying. If you have pressure

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coming from the top, from various organisations, it is very difficult

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to get your voice heard. You say the problems are more widespread than

:10:56.:11:03.

even after the Bruce Keogh report. That looked at 14 trusts and

:11:03.:11:06.

highlighted several deficiencies and recommended improvements, but every

:11:06.:11:09.

hospital around the country has scope to improve to some extent.

:11:09.:11:14.

These are not problems that are unique to those 14 trusts is. The

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difficulty is that they are full of April that are working their hardest

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to make it work. There is a very small proportion that could do

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better, I agree, but the vast majority are doing the best they

:11:27.:11:33.

can. It is not their fault. As a former health secretary, why does it

:11:33.:11:38.

take a report like this to bring these terrible failures to light?

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Why don't ministers, civil servants, special advisers, why

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don't they know already? Because you set up independent regulators to be

:11:48.:11:52.

separate from government and to go in and do the job that ministers and

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civil servants cannot do properly. Previous regulators did not do it

:11:55.:12:05.
:12:05.:12:06.

very well. What Bruce Keogh has got, they sent a team in of not just

:12:06.:12:08.

clinicians but also patient representatives and GPs and nurses

:12:08.:12:15.

and others, a team of 12 to 14, and they looked to see not just a

:12:15.:12:19.

technical appraisal, but a cultural appraisal. They spoke a lot to

:12:19.:12:24.

patients and staff. That was not the traditional way of doing

:12:24.:12:29.

inspections. We are grasping for a way of getting better regulation.

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When you were health secretary, did you have no idea that these things

:12:32.:12:38.

could be happening in certain hospitals? I did, because the Health

:12:38.:12:41.

Care Commision, the predecessor of the Care Quality Commission, were

:12:41.:12:45.

telling us. They went into Stafford and gave us the report. They went

:12:45.:12:55.

into Maidstone. Those reports then come to you, but we need to have an

:12:55.:12:59.

independent regulator. The word independent is very meaningful. The

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other thing that you point out is a separate issue where politicians

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and, I think, clinicians, have to be brave enough to say the whole way

:13:10.:13:14.

that the NHS is configured, which is a hospital based service, has to

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change. But they are two separate issues. Let me put two things to you

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for discussion. The way the NHS is configured, the organisational roots

:13:28.:13:32.

go back to the 1940s. No Secretary of State for health can control what

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is going on in it. It is too centralised and too vast for one

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politician. Nigel Lawson once said the NHS was a religion. Is that the

:13:45.:13:53.

reason we don't get the service we deserve? Yes, on the second point.

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It has become a religion and it has become immune to reform and on that

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first point, it is the classic nationalised industry, it is far too

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big and it be then at -- it benefits the people employed rather than the

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people who service should be delivered to. To say that it is

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because people are under pressure, in some of these cases it is

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perfectly clear that there was absolute neglect and neglect by the

:14:26.:14:32.

people whose job it was to look after people directly but there must

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be neglect by every consultant who walks the wards and sees people

:14:36.:14:41.

lying in their own urine. Dying of thirst. And he did not think about

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that. I don't think it is honest to say that we have asked nurses to

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fill out too many forms. It takes being on the shopfloor to understand

:14:56.:15:01.

the intricacies of the NHS and there are a vast to people doing an

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amazing job and those who get highlighted by the tiniest

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proportion and we should address that but if we are honest, you say

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the NHS is immune to reform. If so, stop trying to reform it. Every

:15:17.:15:22.

government comes in and there is another reorganisation which is not

:15:22.:15:28.

always based on evidence or welcome and it takes time to recover.

:15:28.:15:32.

Sometimes it is a good idea and we need to change things to make them

:15:32.:15:36.

better but the problem is we only are just getting to the point where

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we are starting to get to grips with things and someone comes in and

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changes it. Let me explain, firstly that we continue the model of a

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single National Health Service and what is wrong is the national part,

:15:51.:15:55.

we are trying to manage an organisation of 1 million people and

:15:55.:16:01.

not only is that unwieldy but it means we have a lack of local

:16:01.:16:04.

sensitivity and a lack of competition, in the sense of some

:16:04.:16:08.

people doing things better than one place than in others. Therefore,

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people have the urge to catch up. And the great prejudice against

:16:12.:16:18.

using the private sector which has existed over the decades, and I am

:16:18.:16:22.

afraid that I think the deterioration of the National Health

:16:22.:16:28.

Service and its reputation is actually important to bringing about

:16:28.:16:33.

something quite different in the future, something better. You talk

:16:33.:16:38.

about streamlining and centralising services. You could argue that it is

:16:38.:16:43.

always far too centralised? Nobody at the centre can control it? The

:16:43.:16:48.

Danish have a system like ours, funded by taxation, free at the

:16:48.:16:55.

point of use and does not matter what your wealth is, you get care.

:16:55.:16:59.

But it is locally controlled? And the people who run that locally are

:16:59.:17:06.

held to account by their local community. Yes, but we need to

:17:06.:17:12.

realise that their society and environment is different. We can put

:17:12.:17:15.

other countries and learn from them and that is a good idea but we need

:17:15.:17:20.

to put things into context and one of those points was that you said no

:17:20.:17:25.

politician can control the NHS so then stop using it as a pawn. It has

:17:25.:17:30.

come the piggy in the middle and the people at the heart of the NHS,

:17:30.:17:33.

working and striving and trying to make things work, they are being

:17:33.:17:40.

danced around. But is because of any hospital goes belly up or it is

:17:40.:17:43.

discovered that hundreds are dying, it should not be the Secretary of

:17:43.:17:49.

State in London, who has never been to that hospital... The media will

:17:49.:17:55.

hold them accountable? If it deadpan falls on the floor, it echoes around

:17:55.:18:03.

the country. Rudolf Klein, the great historian, said we have been through

:18:03.:18:07.

control and we are going back to locally driven watchwords of the

:18:07.:18:13.

Primary Care Trusts and they have been thrown up into the air and I

:18:13.:18:15.

don't understand Michael 's reference to the nationalised

:18:15.:18:20.

industry. The problems of the NHS are nothing to do with it being

:18:20.:18:23.

publicly owned, they are to do with, in a sense, producer capture was

:18:24.:18:29.

right, they always had a system for balancing books, it was called the

:18:29.:18:33.

waiting list. They stopped operating in November because it was the end

:18:33.:18:37.

of the financial year. Once those waiting lists were driven down, they

:18:37.:18:43.

had to sort out finances and you will remember not just Patricia

:18:43.:18:47.

Hewitt getting trotted out, it is not as if we went through our time

:18:47.:18:51.

in office and we were keen not to upset the workforce - that had to

:18:51.:18:56.

happen to put the NHS on a more stable footing. The problem is the

:18:56.:19:00.

concentration on quality and if you could concentrate on quality,

:19:00.:19:07.

locally driven, yes, and get on with it, I think that has been one of the

:19:07.:19:12.

major problems. We will let you former Health Secretary have the

:19:12.:19:18.

final word. Using my telepathic powers... I know what you're

:19:18.:19:27.

thinking. I hear the words... Blue. None. Hangover in the morning. But I

:19:27.:19:33.

also have a strange, tinkling sensation. Waiting in the wings, a

:19:33.:19:38.

mystery to all of us, the one and only Uri Geller. He will talk about

:19:38.:19:43.

the power of reputation. For those of you who don't have any reputation

:19:43.:19:51.

to lose, get ready to be ignored on social media. The anticipation is

:19:51.:19:56.

rising and temperatures rise, the press corps sufferers. Camp outside

:19:56.:20:00.

a London hospital, waiting for the arrival of an overdue royal baby.

:20:00.:20:05.

Even Her Majesty brokers silence, she just wanted to arrive so she can

:20:05.:20:13.

go off on her holidays. We said the Economist's Anne McElvoy to do a

:20:13.:20:22.

spot of preparation. This is a round-up of the political week.

:20:22.:20:30.

the brakes on. I have been jittery this week, like Mr Fleet Street,

:20:30.:20:35.

waiting for the arrival of a certain baby. Even the Queen has been

:20:35.:20:42.

expecting... I am going on holidays! My brood are safely locked up in the

:20:42.:20:47.

education system so I borrowed Agnes and Joseph to remind me of the joys

:20:47.:20:53.

of childcare. I might even put myself forward as a Mary Poppins to

:20:53.:20:59.

the new Prince or Princess. I am sure she could use my experience in

:20:59.:21:04.

dealing with the little ones. Like some of our Parliament dreams, they

:21:04.:21:07.

have resorted to squabbling and throwing temper tantrums. Come on,

:21:07.:21:17.
:21:17.:21:31.

they will be born into a tide of restorative. People on welfare, not

:21:31.:21:38.

in work, apart from those who are exempt, such as the disabled, they

:21:38.:21:42.

should not be earning more than average earnings after tax, which is

:21:42.:21:45.

fair to the taxpayers. The thinking is pretty clear, stop those on

:21:45.:21:50.

benefits you do not seem to be able to stop having children, from

:21:50.:21:52.

claiming too much. But that puts Labour in a difficult position. They

:21:52.:21:56.

are in favour of a benefits cap, just not the one on offer. The

:21:57.:22:00.

benefit cap is good idea in principle but the one today has

:22:00.:22:04.

proven such a shambles in practice so we have learned that there are

:22:04.:22:08.

4000 families, about 10%, with large hammers of children who will not

:22:08.:22:16.

come under this when introduced. Hang on, Liam Byrne actually thinks

:22:16.:22:26.
:22:26.:22:28.

that it is to lose. And some Lib Dems say, that is not very... It is

:22:28.:22:32.

about the worst kind of politics and chasing popular is that the expense

:22:32.:22:36.

of children's world being is not something I care for. She is a nice

:22:37.:22:42.

lady! Well, Joseph, you might like that Lady butter attitude is not

:22:42.:22:48.

very popular. So, she is also thinking about the next election and

:22:48.:22:52.

the need to separate the Lib Dems from those nasty Tories. The

:22:52.:22:56.

Conservatives are determined to keep welfare cuts at the heart of their

:22:56.:22:59.

pitch for election. It might be brittle but it is probably quite

:22:59.:23:09.
:23:09.:23:13.

effective. -- brittle. -- brutal. It is important to keep the little ones

:23:13.:23:23.
:23:23.:23:23.

cool, otherwise they can get grumpy. Delightful child! But there have

:23:23.:23:29.

been noises at the dispatch box over something rather serious - report

:23:29.:23:34.

into failures at some NHS hospitals. The Tories say... It is all his

:23:34.:23:40.

fault! And the Labour Party say... It is all his fault! This has been a

:23:40.:23:44.

decisive week by the way the NHS plays into politics. The shift that

:23:44.:23:50.

matters is that the health service is no longer beyond criticism. If

:23:50.:23:54.

the NHS is considered labourers crowning achievement, today is no

:23:54.:23:59.

darkest moment. As a Labour government is exposed as caring more

:23:59.:24:03.

about its own reputation and our most vulnerable citizens in the NHS.

:24:03.:24:09.

You should not play politics with people 's lives with the NHS, on

:24:10.:24:16.

which all people depend. As a well-known childcare guru, I find

:24:16.:24:19.

the hardest thing is to get children to give away their choice, even when

:24:19.:24:25.

they are finished playing with them. I bet Liberal Democrat children do

:24:25.:24:29.

not get to play with heavy weaponry. They have been back on their hobby

:24:29.:24:35.

horse, asking us to reconsider the nuclear deterrent. It is time to

:24:35.:24:40.

move on from the Cold War, to adapt our deterrents to the 21st century

:24:40.:24:43.

in a way that does not copy my 's national security. The only thing

:24:43.:24:51.

that has changed is that the fights between Tories and Lib Dems seem to

:24:51.:24:54.

have eased. It is a longer unthinkable to think that we could

:24:54.:25:01.

have another Cornish and after the next election. Our prime minister

:25:01.:25:07.

does not like the nanny state much. What do you reckon? Did he not like

:25:07.:25:11.

his nanny when he was little? And the prices of cigarette packaging

:25:11.:25:15.

stays the same. But it's about politics, which give Labour the

:25:15.:25:25.
:25:25.:25:25.

chance to take Mr Lynton Crosby. Ed Miliband 's narrative is of rich,

:25:26.:25:30.

cynical conservatives. Has he ever had any conversation with Lynton

:25:30.:25:37.

Crosby about cigarette packaging? has never lobbied me on anything but

:25:37.:25:46.

if he wants a scandal, why doesn't he faced the fact that the trade

:25:46.:25:52.

unions by his Cabinet and his leadership. He is the Prime Minister

:25:52.:25:57.

for Benson and hedge funds Santino is at! But the Tories are off with a

:25:57.:26:02.

spring in their step for summer, even stop moaning. Ed Miliband might

:26:02.:26:08.

relish the royal baby as a distraction from his modest poll

:26:08.:26:11.

ratings amid doubts of whether we can envisage him up on the steps of

:26:11.:26:21.
:26:21.:26:22.

number ten. But you learn to love them in the end! Joseph? ! The Mary

:26:22.:26:28.

Poppins of the programme. Brandon Jones, welcome back. The Tories,

:26:28.:26:32.

very surprising that the stage, going off to the recess with a

:26:32.:26:38.

spring in their step, the economy is improving from a low base. Do they

:26:38.:26:43.

believe they might win the next election? Yes, I think so. We have

:26:43.:26:49.

had the whole service, the economy, going well, advocate either has gone

:26:49.:26:55.

home. The economy going better. The Prime Minister is doing better at

:26:55.:27:03.

questions. I have mentioned this before but as I see it, there are

:27:03.:27:06.

these firm rules and politics and when the public decides of the

:27:06.:27:09.

leader of the opposition is not prime ministerial behaviour, that

:27:09.:27:15.

person does not win. Neil Kinnock, Michael Howard. Iain Duncan Smith.

:27:15.:27:20.

But the second rule is, you do not increase their share of the vote

:27:20.:27:25.

went in office. And David Cameron only got 37% and he needs more for

:27:25.:27:31.

the majority. He needs 40%. And he was off that last time and it would

:27:31.:27:34.

be extraordinary if they could put on three percentage points. Some

:27:35.:27:38.

Tories believe they could win the outright majority but I do not think

:27:38.:27:44.

they can explain how that could happen. Rand, good news for Mr Clegg

:27:44.:27:48.

and the Lib Dems that Mr Cameron and the Tories have spring in their

:27:48.:27:58.
:27:58.:27:59.

step? I think so, but the big? whether or not the UK economy

:27:59.:28:04.

recovery can mean the Lib Dems recover? If things are getting

:28:04.:28:09.

better for the coalition, particularly on the economic front,

:28:09.:28:15.

the Tories, the danger is, they get the credit? That is true but the Lib

:28:15.:28:19.

Dems are in good heart and they feel that the year has gone well and the

:28:20.:28:25.

East the by-election was the turning point. And they have slightly more

:28:25.:28:29.

focused messages than before. The big decision for them is whether or

:28:29.:28:32.

not they continue with this idea that they need to differentiate all

:28:32.:28:36.

the time and say, the Tories are the nasty party and we are the nice

:28:36.:28:42.

ones. Or if, in the run-up to the general election, actually carry on

:28:42.:28:47.

saying, this is what the coalition can do in the times of national

:28:47.:28:54.

crisis. And getting a balance right is truly difficult. This is the

:28:54.:28:59.

point in the political cycle, halfway between elections, when the

:28:59.:29:03.

government of the day is meant to be in the doldrums and the opposition

:29:03.:29:07.

is meant to be unrealistically ahead in opinion polls. What has gone

:29:07.:29:13.

wrong? The coalition must be wishing they had for years as a fixed

:29:13.:29:20.

parliament! Because a lot can happen. But Michael spoke about

:29:20.:29:23.

those general rules and is another general rule that only once in the

:29:23.:29:28.

last 80 years as a party one an election the first time after

:29:28.:29:33.

losing. After five years out of office. That is a very big task. The

:29:33.:29:38.

reason I am encouraged, and I do agree, Cameron has got a spring in

:29:38.:29:41.

his step and Clegg, I thought he would go before the next general

:29:41.:29:48.

election. He is looking less likely. And he has this Zen like transfer

:29:48.:29:54.

all of this stuff is going on around him. But the thing about Ed Miliband

:29:54.:30:00.

is, do not underestimate his speech about levy payers. What he has done

:30:00.:30:05.

in reaction to what was happening at Falkirk is huge stuff. Provided it

:30:05.:30:08.

is carried through and we talk about clause four, but this is even

:30:08.:30:15.

bigger. If this comes off, it shows a level of leadership that I think

:30:15.:30:20.

will perhaps not put him in that position that Neil Kinnock and the

:30:20.:30:25.

others were in. If Labour struggled to get too far ahead in the polls

:30:25.:30:32.

when the economy was in the tag, what happens if the worst is over

:30:32.:30:36.

and things are improving? labour, and the issue has always

:30:36.:30:44.

been the NHS, but they are even on the back foot on that. They are

:30:44.:30:50.

still ahead on that. But that first part of the Parliament... We got the

:30:50.:30:55.

lowest, second lowest votes... It is a long way to come back and we were

:30:55.:31:00.

sitting ducks in the economy. To be blamed for that. I would not take

:31:00.:31:05.

that as anything provided but it is all to play for and the IMF said

:31:05.:31:09.

that we are very long way from a sustainable recovery. No one says

:31:09.:31:13.

this is a recovery of the time we have known before. Lynton Crosby,

:31:13.:31:19.

Michael, is he a problem for Mr Cameron or is he the reason that the

:31:19.:31:25.

Tory message is more focused and sharper and much more resonating?

:31:25.:31:32.

think of. He is probably less of a problem than he is because of

:31:32.:31:38.

success. The focus is being successful. And they are hurling

:31:38.:31:43.

overboard policies that were upsetting the grassroots. Getting

:31:43.:31:50.

rid of the barnacles on the boat? I think it is a problem. But Lynton

:31:50.:31:55.

Crosby has a consultancy that has Philip Morris, the tobacco company.

:31:55.:32:05.

But for the moment the damage that does to the Tory party, at this

:32:05.:32:10.

stage, cannot be prepared -- compared with any benefits. Are the

:32:10.:32:15.

Lib Dems comfortable with Lynton Crosby? They will be very

:32:15.:32:19.

comfortable if he becomes a problem for the Conservative Party. I am

:32:19.:32:28.

sure that Michael is right. It is not difficult to understand that the

:32:28.:32:35.

man in charge might be privy to the party and it is like Bill Clinton,

:32:35.:32:42.

these denials. Why not just come clean? Yes, of course we have

:32:42.:32:45.

discussed this and I know he has paid for one side of the argument so

:32:45.:32:50.

I don't let that influence by judgement. It would be much better.

:32:50.:32:54.

Isn't one of the problems when looking at the coalition at the

:32:54.:33:01.

moment, it is Cameron and the Tories that everybody is talking about? The

:33:01.:33:06.

way it has been covered, not covered as a coalition, it is covered

:33:06.:33:11.

overwhelmingly as Conservative lead? There is an article in the new

:33:11.:33:15.

statesman about that. Cameron has always been a very good performer.

:33:15.:33:19.

He did not seem to have a good machine around him in the early

:33:19.:33:25.

years and part of that was deciding that he did not need all of these

:33:25.:33:28.

levers at Downing Street, and he criticised Tony Blair for having too

:33:28.:33:32.

many special advisers. He soon learned that if you have not got

:33:32.:33:36.

those leaders at the centre, nothing will happen. They have smartened up

:33:36.:33:45.

but it is a long way. And I would be more worried, in a sense, if we were

:33:45.:33:52.

picking too early. He might have peaked too soon? ! The BBC does not

:33:52.:33:56.

forget that this coalition government has not faced the

:33:56.:34:01.

opposition, from the BBC, but Margaret Thatcher did. That is

:34:01.:34:05.

because the BBC does not have the right to attack a government that

:34:05.:34:10.

got 60% of the vote and things like the schools reforms and the National

:34:10.:34:14.

Health Service reforms, welfare reforms, they have been allied

:34:14.:34:18.

through by the media, largely represented in the BBC, in a way

:34:18.:34:22.

that they would not have been if they had been Thatcher reforms.

:34:22.:34:28.

Minority or majority Conservative government. That is partly true but

:34:28.:34:31.

obviously it is very much in the interest of the Lib Dems to pipe up

:34:31.:34:35.

as much as they can about their priorities and things like taking

:34:35.:34:40.

the poorest out of income tax, but, surprisingly, does resonate on the

:34:40.:34:45.

doorsteps and it is very important that they get that policy. In

:34:45.:34:49.

Eastleigh, they proved they got the credit for that and in their next

:34:49.:34:52.

manifesto, they want to make that more ambitious, everyone earning

:34:52.:34:56.

minimum wage is out of income tax. That is clearly identifiable. And

:34:56.:35:03.

you can own that in the future. On a scale of 1-10, ten being most

:35:03.:35:13.
:35:13.:35:15.

likely, what is the chance of Nick and Dave returning? After 2015? As

:35:15.:35:19.

Allen has said, quite rightly, there is a very long way to go but I think

:35:19.:35:26.

it is quite likely. About seven or eight. But I think it is very

:35:26.:35:29.

dangerous. If, going into the election, there is too much of the

:35:29.:35:37.

stuff about bloodlines and there is some pre-negotiation. The electorate

:35:37.:35:40.

will not like that. They must go but down. They have to stand down on

:35:40.:35:46.

that. I would not have put the number as high as that but I am in

:35:46.:35:50.

no doubt that the number is rising. More likely than Conservative

:35:50.:35:55.

victory. If she is right, we will never mention that again! If she is

:35:55.:36:05.
:36:05.:36:10.

wrong... You will be ridiculed! Like all BBC programmes, we spend our

:36:10.:36:16.

budget on focus groups. Alan Johnson is universally admired as a man from

:36:16.:36:20.

humble beginnings who rose to several great offices of state whose

:36:20.:36:23.

dignity, intellect, sheer likeability puts other politicians

:36:23.:36:28.

to shame. And Michael is the funny guy with the strange accent always

:36:28.:36:32.

talking to himself on a train. Does it matter what people think of us

:36:32.:36:37.

and what can we do to change people's perception. We have no

:36:37.:36:47.
:36:47.:36:57.

idea. Attitude of the world 's fastest men drug tested positive,

:36:57.:37:02.

causing a shadow to fall over the anniversary of the London politics.

:37:02.:37:07.

This year 's outstanding ride by Chris Froome has forced him to

:37:07.:37:12.

confront the reputation of his sport has for breaking the rules. I can

:37:12.:37:16.

understand why people are asking this, given the history of the sport

:37:16.:37:20.

and they have been let down so many times before. I am also one of those

:37:20.:37:24.

people that has been let down, I also believed in people who have

:37:24.:37:29.

turned out to be cheats and liars. But I can assure you, I am not.

:37:29.:37:33.

Stuart Broad challenged crickets repetition as gentleman 's game.

:37:33.:37:37.

refused to leave his wicket after clearly being caught out. Unlike JK

:37:37.:37:43.

rolling, who has been caught out concealing her identity. And she was

:37:43.:37:51.

a true author of this book. Using an alias. How powerful can reputation

:37:51.:37:55.

be and how hard can it be to shake? Lynton Crosby's reputation certainly

:37:55.:38:00.

seems to be growing at Westminster and as the old saying goes, there is

:38:00.:38:09.

no cigarette smoke without fire. Uri Geller joins us. How much does your

:38:09.:38:16.

reputation matter? I created my repetition and I moulded it and I

:38:16.:38:24.

twisted it. Consciously? Absolutely, out of necessity. The

:38:24.:38:29.

best thing that could have happened to me was controversy. So, my

:38:29.:38:35.

reputation is shrouded with controversy. And that is great. As

:38:35.:38:40.

long as they talk about me and mention my name, Oscar Wilde said,

:38:40.:38:45.

there is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is not

:38:45.:38:48.

being talked about. Yes, but repetition is absolutely important.

:38:48.:38:58.
:38:58.:38:59.

But when I read about JK, that is a great PR move. Think about that, it

:38:59.:39:04.

has been done 1 million times before. Full page in the Sunday

:39:04.:39:11.

Times! Exactly. In a superficial level, your reputation, which people

:39:11.:39:17.

will always remember as the man who then spins. But according to a new

:39:17.:39:24.

documentary, there is a lot more than that? That is true. Over 40

:39:24.:39:32.

years, I have read minds, stopped Big Ben. It was rather quirky and

:39:32.:39:37.

bizarre and unusual. I was never in the taken seriously. But, parallel

:39:37.:39:45.

to that, to that show business lifestyle and the entertainer, I did

:39:45.:39:49.

quite amazing things for many different intelligence agencies

:39:49.:39:59.

around the world. Including the CIA? Absolutely, an arm of the CIA

:39:59.:40:04.

got me out of Israel in 1972, to test my abilities and skills and

:40:04.:40:09.

might are normal powers to see whether they could be used for their

:40:09.:40:16.

purposes. How long did you do that? For a long time. And what amazed me

:40:16.:40:21.

in this documentary by the revelations that I did not even know

:40:21.:40:31.
:40:31.:40:33.

about. The director, he is an Oscar winner, and I told him how I did it

:40:33.:40:36.

but he must have used his reputation, adding the Oscar, his

:40:36.:40:41.

charisma, his charm and personality, to get the information, to extract

:40:41.:40:48.

the information from these people. Here is a man with a reputation for

:40:49.:40:52.

ending spoons and being an intriguing character and doing

:40:52.:40:57.

things we cannot explain, and doing it with great style and energy, and

:40:57.:41:02.

it turns out that he has been working for the CIA? What does that

:41:02.:41:10.

do? What it will do, it will enhance the feeling or triggered the belief

:41:10.:41:17.

system in people that, hey, maybe Uri Geller does possess certain

:41:17.:41:24.

powers. Otherwise the CIA would not be bothering? Look at his answer

:41:24.:41:30.

about JK rolling, it is publicity! This is amazing. There is an entire

:41:30.:41:35.

reputation on top of the previous one. We are not heart of this border

:41:35.:41:41.

city! Alan, do you worry about your repetition? No, I did whenever I was

:41:41.:41:46.

a minister, it is difficult not to, you read about it every day.

:41:46.:41:49.

your reputation decides the repetition of the government so if

:41:50.:41:56.

you make a big problem, then... Allen has done a reputational clue,

:41:56.:42:00.

adding a book that reveals an entire side that most of us did not know

:42:00.:42:08.

about. I think, in a way, we are all added. What are these doing for your

:42:08.:42:12.

repetition? Making people think about me as a broadcaster, which is

:42:12.:42:19.

true. Which is what you want? It is what you are? It is nice when I meet

:42:19.:42:24.

people in the street and they say, you are the man who did the trains,

:42:24.:42:30.

not the man... That is what you wanted to do and it is hard to shake

:42:30.:42:36.

off any reputation as a Conservative minister? ! It takes a while. And

:42:36.:42:40.

one dissolves into the other. But I do believe that what really

:42:40.:42:47.

overpowers your reputation is your deep personality. If you are a nice

:42:47.:42:52.

person and charming, and you smile. And you are open to everyone and you

:42:53.:43:02.
:43:03.:43:04.

sign autographed, that is all you need. So what is he going to do?He

:43:04.:43:13.

has got it. We are going to put your reputation on the line here. Kate's

:43:13.:43:21.

baby, boy or girl? I knew you would ask me. My wife is in the green

:43:21.:43:30.

room. Ask her. She is great at that. What do you think, Michael? Boyet.A

:43:30.:43:40.
:43:40.:43:43.

boy. When is the documentary? This Sunday after Top Gear on BBC Two.

:43:43.:43:46.

That is your lot for tonight and for the summer because this was our

:43:47.:43:52.

final show of the series. Alan's Private Jet is ready to whisk him

:43:52.:43:55.

off. Michael's faithful manservant is ready to whisk him off to a

:43:55.:44:00.

pleasure Beach. The rest of us will be getting match fit for the next

:44:00.:44:05.

series, because sadly for everyone involved, we return in September, in

:44:05.:44:08.

time for the Lib Dem party conference. It does not get better

:44:08.:44:13.

than that dash the Lib Dem party conference, in Glasgow. Who needs

:44:13.:44:19.

the French Riviera. Tonight, we will leave you with a sticky and

:44:19.:44:23.

frustrated press pack waiting for Kate to deliver the good news story

:44:23.:44:27.

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