26/11/2015 This Week


26/11/2015

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Tonight on This Week, join us for the Autumn Statement Watch, as we

:00:00.:00:09.

study interesting and unseen political behaviour

:00:10.:00:12.

Rutting politicians, rather than stags, in the House

:00:13.:00:20.

of Commons, as Chancellor George Osborne does a U-turn or two.

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And we spot some unseasonal behaviour from

:00:26.:00:27.

The BBC's Business Editor, Kamal Ahmed,

:00:28.:00:33.

Is George Osborne King of the Jungle and did he imagine

:00:34.:00:39.

in his wildest dreams that the main attack on him by the

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opposition would be a not wildly funny joke about Chairman Mao?

:00:44.:00:52.

The Prime Minister wants us to come out of military hibernation as

:00:53.:00:56.

he makes the case for air strikes against Islamic State in Syria.

:00:57.:01:00.

Peace campaigner and head of CND, Kate Hudson, thinks bombing is

:01:01.:01:04.

As the evenings draw in, Jeremy Corbyn's bringing the warmth

:01:05.:01:11.

of common-sense to Parliament on air strikes, Trident and austerity.

:01:12.:01:22.

And just as the seasons change over time,

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Joining us to discuss, Liverpudlian Bollywood star, Amy Jackson.

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Chaotic? Unusual clothing? Languages you don't understand? It is hard

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work being on this show! This Week's natural habitat,

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curled up on the sofa with And yes, it is still

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officially Autumn - just. A week in which Boy George executed

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This Week. A week in which Boy George executed

:02:01.:02:19.

a U-turn on tax credits. Shadow Chancellor John McDonald,

:02:20.:02:24.

who earlier this week, said "We are going to destroy Osborne's

:02:25.:02:26.

credibility", then proceeded to almost destroy his own, by telling a

:02:27.:02:30.

cracking joke about Chinese inward investment levels using

:02:31.:02:32.

Chairman Mao's Little Red Book Tom Watson looked like he had

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swallowed a wasp. Lenin's "What is to be done?"

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A pile that no doubt includes Enver Hoaxha's Albanian bonkbuster,

:03:08.:03:10.

political pot-boiler, Uzbekistan On The Threshold of The

:03:11.:03:12.

21st Century, Challenges to Stability and Progress.

:03:13.:03:18.

Speaking of judging a book by its cover, I'm joined on the sofa

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Think of them as the Lady Colin and Lady Shave

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I speak of course, of #thelamminator David Lammy.

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And #sadmanonatrain Michael 'choo choo' Portillo.

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Welcome to you both. David, your moment of the week? Were it not for

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Syria, the story we would be talking about today is the fact that net

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migration is up 336,000, that is my story because why did George Osborne

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get those ?27 billion of receipts? Hidden in the OBR, the secret,

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because of migration, all those immigrants coming in and paying

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their taxes and working. That is the reason because I told you that

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before I came on air! It is not the only reason. It is significant. No,

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it is not. It is a reason. There is a cap. They have got a cap, which

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they haven't met. Haven't met? We are now seeing the truth of it.

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Migrants come and they contribute to our economy. Very well. And cuts are

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reduced as a consequence. Am I briefing you throughout this

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programme? Let's see. Alright. Fine. What is your moment of the week?

:04:22.:04:26.

Well, it was a busy week with Syria and the Autumn Statement. I suppose

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I was really shocked when I saw that a Russian jet had been downed by

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Turkish fighters and for someone with a sense of history, this was

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the first time that a NATO country had downed a Russian jet since 1953,

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the date of my birth, therefore I know it to be an extraordinarily

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long time ago. Through most of my life, if a NATO jet had downed a

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Russian plane, we would have expected that to be the prelude to a

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nuclear exchange. I wondered what the consequences would be. Probably

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in the end, consequences will probably not be very severe. There

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is a momentum now between NATO and the Russians to do some sort of deal

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over Syria and this inconvenient fact of the shooting down, it will

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probably not get in the way of that. It was a hold your breath moment?

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Yes. It just had that amazing historic resonance. If you ever

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thought, you know, 20 years ago that you woke up and saw that headline,

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you were going to be in big trouble. Thank you.

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Now, the Prime Minister stood before Parliament this morning to

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make the case for air strikes on Islamic State in Syria.

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He will not press for a vote unless he's convinced he will win it.

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Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn has written to his MPs saying he cannot

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One member of the Shadow Cabinet criticised the Labour leader's

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"ridiculous party games" - and I don't mean the kind Michael has

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This has sparked furry in parts -- fury in parts of the Labour Party.

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It seems Mr Corbyn isn't just the Leader of the Opposition, but the

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Leader of the Opposition to his own Parliamentary Labour Party.

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But Kate Hudson, head of the CND, thinks Labour MPs need to put up

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The Chancellor had a cheap shot at Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

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claiming that his front bench contributes to comedy.

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On the contrary, Mr Osborne, Jeremy Corbyn is the serious politician.

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He's been fairly and squarely elected.

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He's true to his word and he brings good sense to politics.

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MPs on the right of Labour need to accept that they

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They are the minority in the party, not Jeremy Corbyn.

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They should show some solidarity and open their minds to the democratic

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With debate raging over bombing Syria and Trident replacement,

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some of the press headlines about him seem like bad punchlines.

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Jeremy knows exactly what he's doing, he was right about the war

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on Iraq and he's much more in step with party members than

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Most people don't want expensive nuclear weapons

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and they have fears about military intervention in Syria.

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We see the tragic consequences of Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya

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Jeremy Corbyn is asking the questions that need to be asked

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and he's being put through the wringer for it.

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Scrutiny in public office is to be welcomed, but there is nothing funny

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Some on the backbenches should have a little humility.

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Their policies led to declining support for Labour after 1997.

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And they lost the last two elections.

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It may be, as polls this week suggest, that while Jeremy has the

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support of the party, he still has to win some support from the public.

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Given a fair chance, I have every confidence that he can do it.

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And from the Museum of Comedy to our own pack of jokers,

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Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister laid out the case for

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extending British bombing into Syria within a wider strategy. Did you buy

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it or didn't you? Not entirely. First of all, I could see there is a

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good reason why we would want to be alongside the Americans, the French

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and the Russians. There isn't a strong case for saying our

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participation makes any difference to the number of bombs or the way in

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which the bombs are delivered. I think most people think that if this

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job is going to be done, it has to be done thoroughly, that would mean

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ground forces. There is still quite a big gap in the explanation that's

:09:58.:10:01.

being made. If you were in the Commons and this is going to come up

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next week, how would you vote? If I were in the common, I would vote for

:10:06.:10:10.

the bombing. I think on the first grounds that allies do have the

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right to see us alongside. David Lammy, how will you vote? I'll be

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voting against. I went with an open mind. I'm not a pacifist. I want

:10:19.:10:26.

Isil dealt with. I did not hear a plan that really explained whose

:10:27.:10:30.

side we are on given the Russians are not really on our side, and that

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the airspace is crowded with the Americans, the French, the Turks all

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there. I didn't hear a plan for what comes afterwards because this is not

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like Iraq, with an Iraqi force, and a strong Kurdish minority at it on

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the ground. I think the third thing for me, which is very important, I

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think of my own constituency, it is clear when we bombed in Iraq, and we

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dealt with Al-Qaeda, it led to Isil, it led to a radicalisation amongst

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some of the youth in that part of the world and I'm not convinced that

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whilst we might deal with Isil it will not lead to jihadist groups and

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movements as a consequence of our bombing, so for those reasons, I'm

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not convinced. How does Jeremy Corbyn, who has made it clear he

:11:20.:11:23.

agrees with David Lammy, how does he carry his Shadow Cabinet, which

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there seems to be if not a majority, a substantial number of figures who

:11:29.:11:32.

don't agree with Mr Corbyn? I think what Jeremy has to do is exactly

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what he's doing at the moment. He has to explain why he has problems

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with the Prime Minister's case, he obviously clearly doesn't feel that

:11:42.:11:44.

David Cameron has made a compelling case. He's set out a series of

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arguments and questions which are much the same as the Foreign Affairs

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Select Committee have laid out and he has the right to expect those

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answers to be made. If they are not made to his satisfaction, then he

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can't then support the war. I know his position. I understand that. But

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how does he convince, how do we have a situation where we have

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how does he convince, how do we have of the party, and the Shadow

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Chancellor, too, they almost certainly take one view, and leading

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Secretary take a different view. How does that work? Jeremy

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Secretary take a different view. How convince them of the case. If he

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can't convince them of the case, then they will have divergent views.

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I can't imagine Jeremy will knuckle under and change his view... He

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I can't imagine Jeremy will knuckle not going to knuckle under,

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I can't imagine Jeremy will knuckle resolve this? It is extremely

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unusual that for a vote that is this important, there isn't a whip Labour

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unusual that for a vote that is this position. Having said that, we

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unusual that for a vote that is this clear in his views for many years. I

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understand all of that. clear in his views for many years. I

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like it is going to be a free clear in his views for many years. I

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If it is not, doesn't it rip the Labour Party apart? The truth is, as

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Members of Parliament, and I said this before, you go with an open

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mind this before, you go with an open

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conscience. So... That has to be a free vote then. No, you expect in

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these circumstances that some people will defy the whip. Should there be

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a free vote? I'd rather that they had a whipped vote on Jeremy

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Corbyn's position. That is a position which is popular amongst

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the majority of the party members. It may not be popular amongst all

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the Shadow Cabinet. We will see how the MPs feel about that. It's an

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ongoing debate and different positions are being put. Would you

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rather have that at the price of ripping Labour apart with multiple,

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the air tonight in Westminster is rife at talk of resignations? There

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is too much talk about Labour ripping apart. This is an internal

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party debate where people have changed their minds on this. You

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can't have a static position and say you can't have a discussion about

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this because Labour's going to look as though it is split. You have to

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get the issues out there and discuss them. We are having a discussion,

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the Shadow Cabinet met this afternoon, they had a discussion. At

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the end, you have to stop discussing and come to a view.

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the end, you have to stop discussing reconcile the views of Jeremy Corbyn

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and Mr McDonnell and major other figures in the Shadow Cabinet?

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There were divergent views between Well...

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There were divergent views between Clare Short and Tony Blair on the

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war in Iraq. The Cabinet came to a collective

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view in favour of the invasion. What will the collective view be on this?

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Well, I don't know what the collective view is going to be. I

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think we are probably going to end up with a free vote. I said it was

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unusual, but what is unusual in these circumstances is that we have

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a leader of a major political party who clearly has a pacifist position

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in relation to these matters. That is honourable in our country's

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history. I accept that. I would be the last person not to enjoy the

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embarrassment of the Labour Party but it seems to be the important and

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serious issue is whether there is going to be enough Labour rebels and

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a small enough number of Conservative rebels for this to be

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carried and unless the Government thinks there is going to be a

:15:23.:15:24.

situation like that, the motion will not be put. I hear it said at the

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moment that the Government is growing in confidence and that I

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think there is a general expectation that the motion will be put and it

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will be carried. I don't envy the Government whips. It's difficult

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enough on your own side, it's extraordinarily difficult to count

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the other side, particularly when people on the other side have a

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large number of reasons for not telling the Government what they are

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thinking of doing. How many on the Labour side will vote for the

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Government do you think? Do you know what, I think, I don't think David

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Cameron is very good at putting these cases in Parliament. He's not

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as persuasive as he could be. How many? I would have said there might

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be something like 50-60. I wouldn't be surprised if they were. Then Mr

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Cameron wins. He'll be all right with 50 or 60. I'm not sure whether

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David is right with 50 or 60, although he's in a better position

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to know than I am. The number reached a peak immediately after

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Paris, probably faltered somewhat after the shooting down of the

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Russian jet which complicates the situation. I do rather agree with

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David that I'm not sure, given the demands that were made by the Select

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Committee as to what sort of explanation should be provided, I'm

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not sure the Prime Minister met the criteria. He basically said, we've

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got to be in it because the others are in it. This is a great country,

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we don't just fight because others are fighting, you have got to make

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the case for what comes afterwards and why in tend the streets of

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Britain will be safer as a consequence of this and not worse

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because they'll be -- there'll be further Jihadists on our streets

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because they felt we bombed them. If you were Prime Minister, you would

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think it was very important, you would think the Americans have just

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about reached a position with Britain when they think we are an

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unreliable allie and you would think that was important. Do you think

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with, as you read it the direction the Labour Party is going, that

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within say a year's time, the Labour Party will be unilateralist nuclear

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disarming party and solidly against foreign military intervention? On

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the question of Trident replacement, I very much hope that the Labour

:17:44.:17:47.

Party during its review will come to the conclusion that Britain has

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better ways. I understand that. What I meant was... It's not just a

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question of CND... But do you think that is the direction in which

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Labour is going? I think that change is the way in which the country is

:18:05.:18:09.

going. Let me try again, do you believe it's the direction Labour is

:18:10.:18:13.

going in? I think, along with a change in attitudes across the rest

:18:14.:18:17.

of the country, across many parties, I think Labour is likely to go in

:18:18.:18:21.

that direction because it's the only sensible direction to go in if we

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want to meet the real security needs of the 21st century, so yes, I

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imagine Labour may well adopt a change in policy.

:18:30.:18:30.

Thank you. Diane Abbott dozing-off

:18:31.:18:36.

during the Prime Minister's Defence But you should stay wide awake

:18:37.:18:40.

and pour yourself another three fingers of Blue

:18:41.:18:47.

Nectar because waiting in the wings, British Bollywood star, actress

:18:48.:18:49.

Amy Jackson is here to tip-toe And don't forget,

:18:50.:18:52.

for those who are particularly thin-skinned, we're still ignoring

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all your comments on The Twitter, The Fleecebook and Gordon Brown's

:18:58.:19:01.

World Wide Web-sphere. Now, awkward schoolboy, Bullingdon

:19:02.:19:03.

toff, austerity chancellor. It feels like George Osborne's

:19:04.:19:06.

had more makeovers than Madonna. Unveiling his Spending Review

:19:07.:19:11.

yesterday, the man who would be PM was keen to

:19:12.:19:14.

shed his unfashionable cuts to tax Sadly, we're not a very stylish

:19:15.:19:17.

bunch here on This Week. So we turned to the BBC's Business

:19:18.:19:23.

Editor, Kamal Ahmed and sent him This is his well-groomed roundup

:19:24.:19:27.

of the political week. # You're more than a number

:19:28.:19:45.

in my little red book...# Now, I don't know exactly how

:19:46.:19:49.

George Osborne starts his day, it's probably not reading

:19:50.:19:54.

the latest thoughts of Chairman Mao or even going for a wet shave,

:19:55.:19:58.

but we know he's a Chancellor who The country, of course,

:19:59.:20:02.

was braced for cuts. But the Chancellor suddenly lathered

:20:03.:20:14.

up the voters with, what is known in business circles,

:20:15.:20:17.

asurprise on the upside, ratchet up the expectation of cuts

:20:18.:20:21.

and then, when a U-turn comes, The big controversy -

:20:22.:20:25.

Tax Credits for working people It created quite a stink

:20:26.:20:46.

when it was announced in the Budget four short months ago and George

:20:47.:20:55.

Osborne this week decided to do what all brave politicians do when faced

:20:56.:20:59.

with a politically toxic situation. I've had representations that

:21:00.:21:05.

these changes to Tax Credits I've listened to the concerns,

:21:06.:21:13.

I hear and understand them and because I've been able to

:21:14.:21:19.

announce today an improvement in the public finances, the simplest thing

:21:20.:21:22.

to do is not to phase these changes Like a particularly pungent soap,

:21:23.:21:26.

the Chancellor's avoidance strategy then seemed to take on a life

:21:27.:21:34.

of its own. He avoided the Tax Credits bear trap

:21:35.:21:37.

but then with thoughts turning to Paris, he turned to the issue

:21:38.:21:41.

of the UK's security. Mr Speaker,

:21:42.:21:48.

the police protect us and we are This new newnificent Chancellor said

:21:49.:21:52.

there would be more money for schools, more money

:21:53.:22:07.

for the NHS, more money for road and There were cuts to Government

:22:08.:22:13.

departments and higher taxes for large businesses

:22:14.:22:25.

for council tax payers and for those Like a tourist bagging

:22:26.:22:29.

the best bits of the beach, Mr Osborne has laid a great big

:22:30.:22:37.

towel over the centre ground. He was attacked by the

:22:38.:22:45.

Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, And then this, have you heard

:22:46.:22:51.

the one about Chairman Mao, asset sales and the UK's reliance

:22:52.:22:58.

on Chinese investment? A lot

:22:59.:23:05.

of Labour MPs wished they hadn't. We must learn to do economic work

:23:06.:23:07.

from all who know how, no matter who they are, we must esteem them

:23:08.:23:11.

as teachers, learning from them But we must not to pretend to

:23:12.:23:16.

know what we do not know. So the Shadow Chancellor literally

:23:17.:23:27.

stood at the despatch box and read Mr McDonnell was sadly a bit like

:23:28.:23:35.

the best man making a joke about the mother of the bride that just

:23:36.:23:52.

hasn't worked and the tumbleweed There is

:23:53.:23:56.

of course a bigger theme here, the drum beat of conflict in the

:23:57.:24:09.

Middle East and the War on Terror. The Chancellor spoke of a security

:24:10.:24:14.

Spending Review aligning economic Today, David Cameron said he wanted

:24:15.:24:17.

to deal with that security issue, calling on the Commons to back

:24:18.:24:27.

Britain joining military air strikes against so-called Islamic state

:24:28.:24:30.

strongholds in Syria. If we won't act now,

:24:31.:24:33.

when our friend and allie France has been struck in this way, then our

:24:34.:24:37.

allies in the world can be forgiven All that Isil stands for and does is

:24:38.:24:41.

contrary to everything those of us on these benches have struggled

:24:42.:24:52.

for over many generations. There is no doubt that it poses

:24:53.:24:56.

a threat to our own people. The question must now be

:24:57.:24:59.

whether extending the UK bombing from Iraq to Syria is likely to

:25:00.:25:05.

reduce or increase that threat. Whatever the outcome of that debate,

:25:06.:25:09.

it could of course be Prime Minister Osborne dealing with

:25:10.:25:13.

the issue by 2019. The ultimate and final make-over for

:25:14.:25:18.

this always flexible Chancellor. BBC Business Editor, Kamal Ahmed,

:25:19.:25:31.

being groomed And we're joined on the sofa

:25:32.:25:37.

by former BBC Economic Editor, and now high-flying City

:25:38.:25:42.

strategist, Stephanie Flanders. For various technical reasons and

:25:43.:25:54.

differences in modelling, the OBR produced a wind fall for the

:25:55.:25:57.

Chancellor of ?27 billion. He proceeded to spend it all. Was that

:25:58.:26:01.

wise? I think it was something that wiz handed to him with those big

:26:02.:26:07.

changes to the forecasts. Pretty much every Chancellor, if you stick

:26:08.:26:11.

around long enough, you get to this position where some of the news is

:26:12.:26:15.

getting better and the numbers get quite big if you have money coming

:26:16.:26:22.

in. It's surprising when you can do all that you did and still meet the

:26:23.:26:29.

key tarts he set himself and still he'll be taking money out of welfare

:26:30.:26:33.

by the end of the Parliament and getting that back from surplus. He

:26:34.:26:36.

didn't spend every penny and the fact he was still able to his

:26:37.:26:44.

targets, that was sensible. He did change too this time because before

:26:45.:26:48.

the election all the thrust of the deficit reduction was to be on cuts

:26:49.:26:53.

to public spending, but suddenly, there's been a number of tax

:26:54.:26:58.

increases, substantial ones, the apprenticeship levy will be ?9

:26:59.:27:04.

billion on business, stamp duty on landlords and other taxes as well.

:27:05.:27:07.

It's a different strategy he's on now? And actually, if you put in

:27:08.:27:12.

also the increase in the living wage in that as well which is effectively

:27:13.:27:17.

a burden on business as well, there's been a big movement in that

:27:18.:27:20.

direction. I was struck, there were two headlines this morning that were

:27:21.:27:24.

the same, end of austerities were in the Mail and the Telegraph I think,

:27:25.:27:29.

both intended to be critical headlines attacking the Chancellor,

:27:30.:27:31.

but actually end of austerity is not a bad headline for this Chancellor

:27:32.:27:35.

to have. It's probably what most people want is an end to austerity.

:27:36.:27:39.

I think actually if you wanted to question his judgment, you might go

:27:40.:27:42.

back to July and say, well, you know, if you were going to introduce

:27:43.:27:48.

the universal benefit anyway, why exactly did you need to cut Tax

:27:49.:27:54.

Credits anyway. This thing is going to take care of itself, as you

:27:55.:27:58.

change from one benefit to another, as there is a rollover of new

:27:59.:28:03.

claimants who're going to make the savings later rather than sooner. I

:28:04.:28:07.

think the judgment needs to be questioned of not this one but the

:28:08.:28:11.

previous one in July. Of getting into this? It's great when you can

:28:12.:28:16.

get credit for reversing a decision. You yourself announced a few months

:28:17.:28:23.

before. If you look at the Chancellor's strategic position on

:28:24.:28:27.

spending, on the apprenticeship levy, on more money from the Health

:28:28.:28:32.

Service or ?6 billion for housing, and for not cutting, I mean he told

:28:33.:28:36.

us in March he was going to take over ?20 billion out of Government

:28:37.:28:40.

departments, it turns out it's only ?10 billion. He's moved his tanks on

:28:41.:28:46.

to the centre ground and in some areas, with the apprenticeship levy

:28:47.:28:49.

on to the centre-left ground. Where does that leave it? Let's get behind

:28:50.:28:55.

this. The truth is, there'll still be very serious cuts in Local

:28:56.:28:59.

Government. There'll be libraries up, day care centres closed, there

:29:00.:29:05.

are very serious cuts in other departments beyond the protected

:29:06.:29:10.

health, education development, and now the police ringfenced within

:29:11.:29:13.

Home Office. I think it's also right to say that if we just went back a

:29:14.:29:18.

month, this is actually a Chancellor that is going to run into serious,

:29:19.:29:24.

serious problems. He would have cut the police massively. They have

:29:25.:29:28.

already had ?1.3 billion in London. He would have gone further, he would

:29:29.:29:32.

have gone through with Tax Credits so there is questions about his

:29:33.:29:35.

political judgment that I think hang over him despite the fact that

:29:36.:29:39.

people are saying his currency is up. George Osborne always goes a

:29:40.:29:45.

little too far and, even on your clip, he always looks like he's

:29:46.:29:49.

enjoying the game just a little bit too much and actually out there it's

:29:50.:29:53.

real people. I worry about that. We are overdoing this flexible side.

:29:54.:29:57.

The great moment of flexibility he had was in the first term, the first

:29:58.:30:03.

five years as Chancellor when he was proclaiming his commitment to

:30:04.:30:06.

austerity while showing a lot of wiggle room around the borrowing,

:30:07.:30:10.

borrowing a lot more, allowing us as a country to have twice the deficit

:30:11.:30:15.

of a typical eurozone country and to have a lot of deficit-supported

:30:16.:30:19.

growth while saying he was being austere. We have the opposite now I

:30:20.:30:23.

think, where he's suggesting he's very flexible and withdrawing these

:30:24.:30:27.

cuts at the end of austerity, because the underlying picture I'm

:30:28.:30:32.

not sure I agree with your depiction Andrew because you are looking at

:30:33.:30:37.

still overall a huge reduction in the size of the state, bigger than

:30:38.:30:41.

any country has achieved over a ten-year period an taxes being

:30:42.:30:45.

capped at a low rate as a share of GDP. I take the point there are

:30:46.:30:49.

costs put on to businesses not showing up in the tax calculation,

:30:50.:30:56.

but I think this is still... Can I go to David Lamy's point about what

:30:57.:31:00.

it would have meant if it was a month ago. Politicians get and

:31:01.:31:03.

deserve their luck and there is a fair amount of luck in this. I said

:31:04.:31:07.

about a month ago or whenever it was when he lost the vote in the House

:31:08.:31:11.

of Lords on the Tax Credits that they'd done him an immense favour.

:31:12.:31:17.

If it would have gone through, he'd be saddled with that retchid cut and

:31:18.:31:22.

come the spring there would be these families ?1500 a year worse off. The

:31:23.:31:26.

constituency post bags would have been unbearable. He was saved all of

:31:27.:31:29.

that because thank God the Government lost in the House of

:31:30.:31:31.

Lords. A lot of the same changes will come

:31:32.:31:37.

through with the Universal Credits... The ones in there will be

:31:38.:31:41.

protected. It is quite different to say this person getting ?1,500 less

:31:42.:31:46.

than they would have done if they had applied last month. There is one

:31:47.:31:50.

other group we should talk about - students. As you remember, back in

:31:51.:31:54.

2012, we put fees up, we said that you would pay back the loans at

:31:55.:32:00.

?21,000, very quietly George Osborne changed the fact that we were going

:32:01.:32:07.

to operate that ?21,000 five years later. A lot of people now will pay

:32:08.:32:12.

back their loans a lot sooner and at the same time, nurses will not get

:32:13.:32:17.

direct grants, they too will be on loans. No-one can argue that nurses

:32:18.:32:22.

make the kinds of salaries that on average university graduates do. If

:32:23.:32:27.

you go through the budget statement, you can find all sorts of examples

:32:28.:32:31.

of that, where several hundred million have been saved here and

:32:32.:32:35.

there. But on the broad judgment, what I'm not clear is, is the fiscal

:32:36.:32:43.

consolidation plan in your view too tight, about right, or it should be

:32:44.:32:51.

looser? Clearly, just over ?10 billion worth of cuts is preferable

:32:52.:32:56.

to ?20 billion. So, from a Labour perspective, it's better. We have

:32:57.:33:01.

some victories here. I am pleased... Should the deficit be reduced in the

:33:02.:33:05.

manner and at the speed that he plans? Or should it be slower? Look,

:33:06.:33:12.

he has - he's broken the benefit cap already. I suspect that... I'm not

:33:13.:33:20.

asking you for a commentary on the Tory position. I'm asking you for

:33:21.:33:22.

what you think Labour's position should be. Well, Labour's position

:33:23.:33:32.

at the moment is something according to Chairman Mao. Let me clarify for

:33:33.:33:38.

a second time. I didn't ask you what Labour's position was. I asked you

:33:39.:33:42.

what you thought Labour's position should be. I think that Labour's

:33:43.:33:46.

position has got to be consistent with the vast majority of people and

:33:47.:33:54.

that is anti-austerity, not going too soon, actually ironically, we

:33:55.:33:58.

arrive somewhere in that place in George Osborne's budget. That is as

:33:59.:34:02.

a consequence of pressure from us. About right. So, it is OK because it

:34:03.:34:10.

is your budget? It's not my budget, it his HIS budget. We fought hard

:34:11.:34:14.

against those police cuts, we fought hard on tax credits, we won those

:34:15.:34:21.

victories. Alright. You followed and watched George Osborne for a number

:34:22.:34:26.

of years. He's clearly positioning himself to be the next Conservative

:34:27.:34:31.

Leader? Has he got it in him to be the Prime Minister? Michael's

:34:32.:34:37.

probably seen more of his prime ministerial qualities than I have. I

:34:38.:34:45.

have seen the Chancellor, shifting and changing... Is he building up

:34:46.:34:47.

into being prime ministerial material? In terms of the way he's

:34:48.:34:51.

now talking on a much wider range of issues, and the way in which he's

:34:52.:34:57.

credited with still an enormous amount of political strategy and

:34:58.:35:05.

acumen, despite some of the reversals. He is shaping up, you

:35:06.:35:09.

might say, rather better than the last Chancellor who then became the

:35:10.:35:15.

Prime Minister. Wo would that be? Remind me. Someone from north of the

:35:16.:35:19.

border. Ten years ago, I knew both of these people very well. Ten years

:35:20.:35:22.

ago, my feeling was that George Osborne would be the better

:35:23.:35:25.

candidate to be leader of the Conservative Party. I was probably

:35:26.:35:27.

wrong at that time. There was an underlying point. There is an

:35:28.:35:30.

extraordinary resilience in George. There is a solidity. As things

:35:31.:35:35.

stand, is he the likely next leader? Yes. I think he still lacks a little

:35:36.:35:44.

bit of the charisma that you associate with the Prime Minister. I

:35:45.:35:51.

think in every other way, all the boxes are being picked. What did you

:35:52.:35:59.

think when John McDonnell brought out his little Red Book? Ill-judged.

:36:00.:36:04.

Did you read it yourself? I haven't read it myself. We touched on it

:36:05.:36:10.

briefly in a history class in A-level. I think the Chamber of the

:36:11.:36:14.

House of Commons is, at that level, with - I know why he did it. He did

:36:15.:36:18.

it to illustrate the point that they were selling everything off to the

:36:19.:36:21.

Chinese, however it was badly judged. Alright.

:36:22.:36:25.

Now, some of our older viewers will probably remember the

:36:26.:36:27.

They're back in the game - if leader Tim Fan-Dabi-Dozi is to be believed.

:36:28.:36:36.

According to Tiger Tim, Boy George's dramatic U-turn

:36:37.:36:39.

yesterday on tax credits was apparently "a massive Lib Dem win".

:36:40.:36:46.

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it, but maybe Tim

:36:47.:36:49.

shouldn't be so sensitive about who gets the credit - after

:36:50.:36:51.

all, people have far more important things to worry about, or do they?

:36:52.:36:58.

We're not sure - that's why we're putting 'sensitivities'

:36:59.:37:00.

It might seem a stretch to call this controversial but Yoga's touched

:37:01.:37:15.

Campaigners got a campus class shutdown, complaining the exercise

:37:16.:37:19.

The new Star Wars film is on the way and there's a battle raging over

:37:20.:37:28.

the adverts and whether you should serve religion with your popcorn.

:37:29.:37:32.

Some cinemas won't be showing a Church of England advert

:37:33.:37:42.

featuring the Lord's Prayer, receiving condemnation from

:37:43.:37:45.

Just ask actor Benedict Cumberbatch whether sensitivity's ever been

:37:46.:37:55.

In new comedy Zoolander II, the actor's transgender character is

:37:56.:38:01.

no laughing matter for some who're calling for a

:38:02.:38:05.

boycott of the movie on the grounds of his cartoonish portrayal.

:38:06.:38:11.

I think he's asking do you have a hot dog or a bun.

:38:12.:38:15.

Does the first Scouser in Bollywood suggest people are far less

:38:16.:38:19.

They call you bling, bling, Mr Singh.

:38:20.:38:24.

Actress Amy Jackson may be white and from Liverpool

:38:25.:38:26.

but plays characters from a different ethnic background and has

:38:27.:38:30.

captured Indian imaginations with a string of acclaimed performances.

:38:31.:38:36.

This Week, smoothly navigating your cultural sensitivities, since 2003.

:38:37.:38:49.

If that doesn't get us a Bollywood contract, nothing will!

:38:50.:38:54.

You were born on the Isle of Man, raised in Liverpool, so how did you

:38:55.:39:08.

end up in Mumbai? It has been a whirlwind, really has. Now it is my

:39:09.:39:15.

new life. Bollywood movies is basically what is happening right

:39:16.:39:20.

now. I got scouted back when I was 17. This was over in America, and

:39:21.:39:27.

basically the director saw a picture of me in the Daily Mail and he said

:39:28.:39:31.

this is what I want for my movie, this is the lady I want to cast, and

:39:32.:39:49.

it was a 1940s period drama. You now I pick roles where I think I can do

:39:50.:40:47.

justice to the character. It's not like, I'll do this role, or that

:40:48.:40:53.

role. If I feel I can do well and portray it properly, that's when

:40:54.:40:57.

I'll decide. Is everything you do in English? No, it's not. Tell us more?

:40:58.:41:05.

Hindi is Bollywood, I've done two Bollywood films, regional cinema,

:41:06.:41:11.

there are 47 different languages in India. The main movies I've been

:41:12.:41:19.

working on are Tamil films. The Hindi ones also.

:41:20.:41:23.

It speaks volumes for India, doesn't it? It really does. Indian cinema is

:41:24.:41:29.

international, global, people watch it all over the world and it's on

:41:30.:41:33.

the rise. What about British cinema? Definitely. Are you up for that?

:41:34.:41:40.

100%. I didn't realise acting was my passion until I was thrown into the

:41:41.:41:45.

deep end and now wherever cinema may take me, especially where I come

:41:46.:41:51.

from Britain and obviously overseas, it's definitely on the cards. So

:41:52.:41:55.

there is a lot of cultural sensitivity around, but you show

:41:56.:41:59.

that people are prepared, not to be too sensitive, but they are prepared

:42:00.:42:04.

to go with the flow, if they see a success they back it, they like it.

:42:05.:42:09.

Do you live in India now? Yes, end of austerity got a place in Mumbai,

:42:10.:42:13.

so between Mumbai and London, I'm travelling all over for shoots and

:42:14.:42:20.

Mumbai is such a cosmopolitan city, and Bollywood is global. Yes. It's

:42:21.:42:27.

always expanding. Can you walk down the street in Mumbai? It's getting

:42:28.:42:32.

very full on which is good and, with each movie that releases and with

:42:33.:42:37.

each movie that is a success, obviously I'm more recognised. David

:42:38.:42:41.

has a problem in London, he can barely walk. Are you a sensitive

:42:42.:42:45.

soul, David? LAUGHTER

:42:46.:42:52.

Looks very sensitive! Underneath that rough ex-tarior, Michael is

:42:53.:42:56.

very sensitive aren't you? I am. You have got a movie coming out --

:42:57.:43:03.

exterior. Yes, it's releasing worldwide on 18th December. The

:43:04.:43:08.

music released today on iTunes, it's a romantic album so check that out

:43:09.:43:15.

if you are into Tamil movie cinema. Good luck with the film, great to

:43:16.:43:17.

have you. That's your lot for tonight, folks,

:43:18.:43:24.

but not for us because it's Grant Shapps Night at Lou Lou's

:43:25.:43:25.

and we're off to strenuously deny all knowledge of any wrong-doing

:43:26.:43:27.

on the dance-floor. We leave you tonight with exclusive

:43:28.:43:29.

footage from the This Week archives. And proof that,

:43:30.:43:32.

despite reported disagreements in the shadow cabinet, at least some

:43:33.:43:34.

of the Corbyn leadership team are Nighty night,

:43:35.:43:39.

don't let Madame Mao bite. Why is it right to wear a

:43:40.:43:45.

Maoist T-shirt but obviously wrong - because it is

:43:46.:43:47.

- to wear a Hitler T-shirt? I suppose some people would judge

:43:48.:43:52.

that on balance, Mao did more good than harm,

:43:53.:43:55.

you can't say that about Marxist. I've just had this debate with

:43:56.:43:59.

my son. I wish this were in Private Eye,

:44:00.:44:05.

I really do. You still

:44:06.:44:07.

like all these old lefty dictators. Mao killed tens of millions

:44:08.:44:09.

of people. Just tell me what was the good that

:44:10.:44:12.

he did that made up for the 60 He helped defeat the Japanese and he

:44:13.:44:16.

left his country on the verge... ...could have beaten the Japanese,

:44:17.:44:21.

too. The way in which

:44:22.:44:37.

we create and consume food A seemingly sci-fi future

:44:38.:44:39.

is actually a reality. I'll be joined by a team of experts

:44:40.:44:44.

and we'll scour the globe

:44:45.:44:49.

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