By-Election Special This Week

Tonight, as Britain launches air strikes against IS in Syria, join

All quiet in the dark clouds over Westminster, but passions fly

It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria.

BBC Top Gun, Emily Maitlis watched the mid-air collision.

After that marathon ten-hour debate, Britain's military have found their

new target, Britain's Labour may have found their new

World leaders jump in their planes and fly to Paris to discuss

Climate Change, but how serious is the environmental threat?

Meteorologist, campaigner, and brother of Jeremy, Piers Corbyn, is

Global warming is a nonsense. We need to lose that loving feeling and

stop the madness of the climate change gravy train. And as Labour

wing man, Hilary Benn, drops a receipt other call bomb on his own

party leader is there room for principles in politics? Zblnd Marin

Alsopp is presented with her flying colours.

I'm used to landing a good gig. Then this show came along.

I feel the need, the need for This Week!

A week in which the grim drumbeat of war is loud in the land once more.

Our warplanes are in the skies over Iraq and Syria,

and on the home-front we face the greatest terrorist threat ever.

So naturally it was only right for 'Call Me Dave' to have a pop at the

BBC, or the "enemy within" as it's known in the Downing Street bunker.

Not because we've been especially traitorous - certainly no more than

normal - but because the PM thinks we're not using the

correct nomenclature when referring to the real enemy - and that this

Clearly they didn't teach him the "sticks and stones"

Anyway 'Call Me Dave' thinks that if we stopped calling

the terrorists Islamic State or ISIL or ISIS and referred to them

by the Arabic acronym Daesh we'd be doing our bit for the war effort.

Put aside the somewhat pertinent fact that Daesh is simply Arabic

Apparently it sounds like another pejorative word

in Arabic and the PM think if we all say Daesh the beheaders

will be so demoralised they'll throw down their weapons and crawl under

So Daesh, Daesh, Daesh, Daesh, Daesh.

Peace, sweetness and light return throughout

If only Churchill had got the hand of this war business sooner.

Speaking of pointless re-branding exercises, I'm joined on

the sofa tonight by two Westminster statues of liberty - think of them

as the 'free vote' and the 'free love' of late night political chat.

I speak, of course, of #manontheleft, Alan 'AJ' Johnson

and #sadmanonatrain, Michael 'choo choo' Portillo.

Michael, your moment of the week? Another saying from the Prime

Minister, when he described those who were going to vote against his

motion as being terrorist sympathisers, it was an entirely

inaccurate and unworthy remark. If it betrayed the real feelings, I

think that is pitiful. But it was a shot in the foot. It derailed his

own speech. He was called on then in the House of Commons to apologise. I

believe he should have. Of course it meant at the end of the day that the

accolades went not to him but to Hilary Benn.

I think he deserved to lose the vote. Although, I must say, he won

it by a handsome majority. That is what he set out to do. So I will at

the end of this long sentence, say he must be congratulated on

achieving a result that a week ago seemed miraculous. Was he badly

aadvised to apologise? He must have known this was coming? It dominated

reviews? People talk about David Cameron being advised. I knew him

for 15 years as the advisor. He does not need anybody else's advice. He

can issue it himself. Alan? It had to be the Hilary Benn

speech. I know we will talk about Syria but to be in the claim we are

that 15 minutes of elconsequence and you know, saying you can hear a pin

drop, he had the chamber in the palm of his hand it is very difficult

when packed. I saw John Barron who take as contrary view to Hilary

Benn, standing up in the beginning to intervene, as did somebody else

but as the speech progressed, they decided not to bother. It was the

moment that kept them in their speech. That this was a speech not

to be interrupted. However you feel about the vote, no-one can deny it

was a masterful speech. Now, we don't feel the cold much

here on This Week - Michael only needs to cross his legs and we all

feel the heat, but in the interests of turning up the temperature in

our draughty little studio, we're turning to this week's UN

climate change talks in Paris. While there's broad agreement

on the need to reduce the use of fossil fuels, there's more

disagreement than the average shadow cabinet meeting about how best to

meet carbon reduction targets. One man who thinks we're all getting

too hot under the collar about climate change is scientist,

long-term weather forecaster, and brother of Jeremy,

Piers Corbyn - who thinks all this Here's his take of the week.

temperatures is a myth. # It's getting hot

in here # So hot # So take off all your clothes # I am getting

so # I will take my clothes off. Despite the hype in Paris,

the fact is there is no such thing The truth is

the inter-governmental panel on Climate Change at the United Nations

is a political, not a scientific body, and it even amends scientific

documents before publication to # It's getting hot in here # So hot

# So take off all your clothes # I The climate alarmism plastering

the media and the so-called science put forward

by the United Nations is fraudulent and what Sir David Aattenbrough

says is a disgrace to science and And one thing we will ask him

is just look at this graph. The upper curve is what their UN

models predict. You can see that they fail

and fail and fail again to show what The world now is cooling and our

own scientific examination of soil activity shows it will cool even

more rapidly in the next 20 years. When it comes to CO2 emissions, they

are failing on their own terms. They are actually not cutting

them but exporting them. They closed the British Steel

industry to reduce CO2 in Britain, and it is regrown

in India to make more CO2. So, let's be clear,

the climate change energy charges on your electricity bill are actually

a Poll Tax on the poor, which even causes people to die in winter

when they cannot foot the bill. Huge profits are being made

from carbon trading from expensive climate change

grandiose projects, big oil benefits from price rises, banks benefitting

from any trading, you do not! Ice-cream, tea, coffee, French

baguette, we got it all here. Now is the time to start full debate

in Britain on the future And from the Piccadilly Whip

ice-cream stall in Tower Hill, to the Politically Whipped here

in Westminster. Piers,

what flavour did you bring us? Surely for you to be right, nearly

all the world's leader, from the President of America, to the

President of China, plus most of the world's climate scientists are

engaged in a massive conspiracy to hood wink us, that cannot be right?

Of course but that is not true of the so-called survey of climate

papers, 0.3 stated from their work that CO2 had been the cause of

warming. The other paper said nothing at all. But most of the

world has signed on to this. All of the leaders have their own

scientific advisors. Although they are arguing about what to do? They

are appointed. It is the panel on climate change who appoint people

that advise themselves, the IPCC is a political organisation, not a

scientific one. Why can so many be hoodwinked? It is

easily done. It has been done before. There are many things in the

past, such as Galileo had a problem bringing forward the truth. John

Harrison, had a problem to bring forward the truth for 30 years over

how to measure latitude. And this is because of the entrenched interested

groups. If you want to know what is actually

going on, we can tell you. But the graph I showed, shows that the

theory they put forward is not working.

So, under the climate change Act, section 6, part two, it states

clearly if the science changes, ie the information, then the measures

have to change and should be discussed.

So what it is saying is we must reopen the debate on climate change

and not impose the charges which are closing British...

INAUDIBLE You said, you claimed in your take

that the world is now cooling. But that is not borne out by the land or

the satellite temperature measure? It is. It is.

Yes, it. But the past... Look at the graphs.

The graphs you are seeing shows that.

The temperatures now are on average about 0. 5 Celsius than they were 35

years ago. No. No.

But all of the satellite measurements I know show that the

temperatures... Not the satellite measurements. So-called land

measurements show increase but they are fraudulently chosen.

You can go on the weather action.com website to see this.

People argue about a pause, whether that is there but since 97, 98, we

have had some of the warmest years on record? Some, yes.

How is it called average? The reason peek is the same as, taking away the

data fraud, the same as the peak in the late 1940s. Michael, you are a

bit of a sceptic on global warming, do you go as far as Piers? I am not

qualified, Piers is. So I do feel there is a bandwagon around this. I

am so pleased to hear Piers on the BBC. At one point the BBC said that

the debate was settled, they did not want to hear more of climate

sceptics but even if one accepted there was global warming and it was

man-made, the way to tackling that it is by human sacrifice in

developed countries, I think Piers makes the point that it is exporting

jobs and CO2 to other countries but in any case, the first thing you ask

yourself is what is the cost of dealing with climate change? It has

occurred in the past Human beings have to adapt to it. Assuming we

have to adapt in the future, rather than preventing it, there is a huge

loss of ability in believing we can prevent it. What are the

consequences? We have not had the debate.

That is what the Stern Report was about? You can argue with it, that

is what it did. It is a laughing stock around the

world. Human being have it in the frame of

mind that we are evil. We are overindulging ourselves. That we

must restrain ourselves. That capitalism is somehow involved in

this. I think that the whole thing lends itself to his steera.

Alan, what is your take? I would it were true if Piers is right, there

is no global warming and but, like Michael, I am not qualified.

To you agree we should open up the debate? This afternoon, I went to

the House of Commons library and asked them. 97% of climate

scientists say that climate change is real it is happening and that it

is man-made. You will have to argue with the

House of Commons... Here is the question. It is not a play upon your

name. As I understand it is peer review that looks at the different

scientific papers who reviewed your assessment? I have had many on this

subject. On the question of, what I quote is

peer review papers but on the question of action forecast so there

are success rates, based on the solar activity.

Your position is that the extreme end of keptism, it is denial. There

are even climate scientists who disagree about the exact temperature

consequences of CO2. But that is not you. You are innout right denial? We

are saying that the CO2 has no effect. That is borne out by

history. If you look at history, CO2 levels follows in changes of

temperature, not the other way around. The temperature of the sea

controls the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. The sea itself has 50

times more CO2 in the than the atmosphere.

Have you not managed to convince your brother? The situation in the

Labour Party is that Jeremy has to follow Labour policy. The Labour

policy includes to support the climate change Act.

He dines out on his climate change credentials? He makes clear as the

science changes, then the measures changes. So now is the time for

debate. My brother is very much in favour of debate. Is support his

leadership of the party, I look forward to more debate on the issue.

Most climate change sceptics are on the right, where are you? I'm on the

left. But there is more on the left. There is a Tom Harris from Canada,

he says, look, there is no reason for being either left or right on

the issue. We stand for scientific truth. There is a reason for being

right or wrong, the danger is, I believe we have been through it with

GM crops, with measles, Mumphs and rubella, whether people stopped

innoculating kids, and it would be horrendous if 97% of the world's

scientists are right about 2% warming. And we throw all of that

aside and follow your conspiracy theory.

Let's not get hung up on the 97%. What is science? I want to ask you,

there is a lot of evidence around, that conflicts with what you have

said tonight. But let us move on. How do you think that your brother

is doing? Superbly. He has made a different situation in Britain

where, you know, young people are participating more than ever in

politics, and the Labour Party has the biggest membership ever and more

people joined since he became the leader than membership of the

Liberal Democrats. You don't think he is out of touch

with main stream Labour opinion? There is a difference between

Parliament and the party and the public. He is fighting for proper

discussion and proper representation and proper accountability in the

party. I support him.

Thumbs up for the brother? Absolutely.

Now it's late, fevered expectation in Oldham West Royton later.

And if the idea of a by-election special isn't thrilling enough -

waiting in the wings we have American super conductor,

Marin Alsop is here to discuss 'principles' in public life.

And don't forget, you can witness the "self-righteous certitude of

the finger-jabbing representatives of the new and kinder politics".

And Gordon Brown's world wide web sphere.

Now, we're a festive lot here on This Week.

As we speak, Michael's reindeer onesie is at the dry-cleaners.

ready for our Christmas special, and Alan's full of nostalgia

for his days as a Yuletide postman with Santa's sack.

But with the atmosphere anything but festive in Parliament this week,

we decided to try and get you in the mood and sent the BBC's

Emily Maitlis down to the Natural History Museum Swarovski Ice Rink.

This is her roundup of the political week.

# It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas # Everywhere you go...

So, here we are, then, December - like that, highly flammable,

ever itchy, bundle of acrylic, otherwise known as the Christmas

The season of good cheer, festive fun, dubious office party moments.

But the mood has been a sombre one in Westminster.

Since all the days of the week have been given names, Black Friday,

Cyber Monday, we might as well call what happened yesterday,

MPs were called to the House for a marathon ten-hour debate

on whether Britain should join Allies, France and America,

The action we propose is legal, it is necessary,

and it is the right thing to do to keep our country safe.

And my strong view is that this House should make clear that we will

take up our responsibilities rather than pass them off

and put our own national security in the hands of others.

Public opinion is moving increasingly

against what I believe to be an ill-thought out rush to war.

And he wants to hold this vote before the opinion grows

I know what you're thinking, this is all some elaborate conceit

at the expense of the poor BBC licence fee payer,

just to sneak in a few metaphors about skating on thin ice, don't

rush me - I have plenty more cliches to get through before that one!

And despite the length of the debate, some will worry that the

On Tuesday night he told a group of Tory MPs not to vote against the

air strikes with what he called a bunch of "terrorist sympathisers".

That went down as well as a drone stall at a Stop The War rally.

I cannot identify a single terrorist sympathiser among that list.

Will he now apologise for his deeply insulting remarks?

As for Jeremy Corbyn, he must have spent much of this week

feeling like he was slithering around on some brittle seasonal

He went to his parliamentary party intending to ask them to vote

against the air strikes but he ended up having handed them a free vote.

Now was this a question of Jeremy Corbyn not being left-wing enough?

A question few would have dared asked before the age

I wish I had, frankly, the self righteous servitude

of the finger-jabbing representatives of our new and

kinder type of politics, who will no doubt soon be contacting those of us

During that marathon session, the faces of those on the frontbench

How could Hilary Benn respond to Jeremy Corbyn's words,

when he didn't agree with anything he was saying?

He had waited his turn, a full ten hours and this was, for many, the

A moment when he seemed to grow in stature, always courteous but listen

again and you'll find a quiet rebuke to the Labour Party as you do.

We are here, faced by fascists, not just their calculated brutality

but their belief that they are superior to every single one

And all of the people that we represent, they hold us in contempt.

They hold our belief and tolerance and decency in contempt.

They how old our democracy, the means by which we will make

No sooner had Hilary Benn sat down than MPs started to talk up

his chances of becoming the next Labour leader.

But that wasn't what was worrying Number Ten this week,

who have arguably had no less troublesome a time.

Grant Shapps, the former Party Chairman was forced

to quit after he failed to act upon allegations of bullying.

This story has at its heart the appalling tragedy

of one family, a young Conservative activist, who was found dead,

This week I spoke to his father, Ray.

It became a quagmire, almost like a dry rot affecting the

Conservative Party in many ways with many people being affected adversely

and other people who were doing the bullying and the intimidating.

It became very clear to us that there they were being protected.

Tonight all eyes will be on Oldham, which has gained peculiar prominence

Because it is the first chance voters will have to

give their say on the Corbyn Labour Party, on what has always been

So will Ukip become the new Torvill and Dean of Oldham, or will Labour

No, don't be crazy, I'm not on Dancing on Ice.

Emily Maitlis at the Natural History Museum Swarovski ice rink.

And with nothing better to do, we're joined in the studio by

What got into Hilary Benn? Well, I have heard him make good speeches

before, and he is a very eloquent speaker. In fact, he looks very much

like his father, who was a great rate. But I suppose, come the hour,

come the man. That was summing up ten hours of debate. It was his job

to put the case, as we had agreed in a free vote, but the case for the

motion, and I think he did it superbly. But your party can't go on

like this. You cannot continue, on major issues, as important as the

one under debate, in which the leader opens with one side of the

argument and another leading shadow in which the leader opens with one

side of the argument and another leading shadow how long can that go

on? As I said in the debate, on a question of war and peace, which now

Parliament decides on, actually even if there is a Whip it does not count

for much because people make their own decisions anyway. The only way

it counts as for the because nobody will go in front of their

constituents to say, I voted this way, I did not believe in it but the

whips told me to. You could not have done it if you were in government.

It would have been difficult. The Cabinet would be deeply divided. And

you are the opposition preparing for government, not a debating society.

Which is the point that Diane Abbott made and in a way I agree. But she

wanted a whipped vote. That is your point. I am asking how long you can

go on like this. I would think on an issue like this you can do it, but

on other issues you cannot. What was the Ukip position on air strikes? We

were against, and we made that point clearly. We wanted a grand

coalition, to see the issues and the whole dimensional and lead on this

taken by the Arab states, with a UN mandate and with the superpowers in

support. But didn't your only MP vote for air strikes? I understand

he did, yes. He is our MP, he was there during the debate and will

have listened to the speeches. He is his own man and voted accordingly.

Your leader goes one way and you're only MP goes the other way. You are

as bad as the Jeremy Corbyn Shadow Cabinet. We made our point in terms

of the policy very clear. Douglas was up front, he was there at the

time, he listened to the issues and voted accordingly. Did you sound out

your members? He didn't contact me, if you are asking. Know, has the

party sounded out its membership on this issue. I have no doubt some of

our members will have contacted my colleagues. I can't actually answer

your question because I don't know whether we consulted every member by

e-mail or Twitter or whatever. John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor,

said of the Hilary Benn 's speech, not necessarily in a helpful way,

that although he thought it was a great speech it also reminded him of

Tony Blair's speech, and he thought that was an example of great oratory

leading to great mistakes. Did he have a point? Definitely. I remember

that Tony Blair 's speech and I was overwhelmed by it, one of the best

three speeches I heard in Parliament, and it helped me to vote

for the Iraq war, which was a mistake. In Hilary Benn's speech,

there was a rhetorical device, which was to describe the enemy as

fascism. And of course, that immediately makes you think you are

fighting the 2nd World War. But of course there are all sorts of ways

in which that parallel breaks down. Even if the parallel were exact,

which it is not, you are led to believe that the answer to dealing

with fascism is to extend a bombing campaign which we have been involved

in in Iraq into a bombing campaign which is already being conducted by

other people in Syria. And you begin to see how the argument doesn't

quite survive the confrontation with those facts. What was happening here

was something very small, militarily. Quite significant, I

think, diplomatically. That is the point that struck me. Of course, if

the Americans and the French are doing this and Paris has just been

attacked, there is the strongest moral and strategic case for getting

alongside your allies. But for me, that is the long and the short of

the case, and everything else you say about making Britain safe or

whatever is exaggeration, hyperbole and completely unworthy and

misleading. So the bombing has begun. Are you clear where we go

from here? I am clear there are three elements. There is the Vienna

peace process, the military action, and I go a long way with Michael on

the basis that it is ludicrous for us to have been taking action in

Iraq but not taking action in Syria, and there is the work going on to

try to ensure that we get the Syrian Army to get these 70,000, 80,000

people together. That was the weakest part of the argument, as was

raised by many people. To me, it did not change the argument about why we

should be contributing with our allies, given the bit that Michael

left out, UN resolution 20 to 49, a unanimous decision of the UN

Security Council, because that enables us to be part of all three

parts, and the motion was clear. It was not about Syria and Assad, it

was about Isil, and was very clear about the other elements that need

to be taken as well. You alluded in your speech which we had a clip of

about Labour MPs being abused and bullied because of their stance. How

bad is the atmosphere? Well, it depends where you come. For Stella

Creasy and people like that it has been terrible. I have been through a

lot in my time, but it was a free vote, for goodness sake. When you

look at the contrast with September 2014 when Ed Miliband led us through

the lobby, 545 votes to 43, and that was about bombing in Iraq, there was

none of this. If this is the new type of politics, bring back the old

type, because, and I think this is what Hilary Benn was reminding

people, the kind of view that thinks being on the left is always against

military intervention, that that is what you do on the left, and if

people do not agree with you, you have rang and scream at them for

having the temerity to take a different point of view, then bring

back the old politics. Have they been getting at you? Not yet, but

there is time. Are Labour MPs right to worry about the selection? Yes.

When they hear people like Ken Livingstone, who seems to be pretty

influential now, when they hear other MPs saying, on your own head

be it. This was a free vote, people were entitled to vote with their

conscience. The idea that you only have a conscience if you are against

military intervention but you have no conscience whatsoever, you are a

red Tory, or whatever the terminology is, if you do, that is

actually an affront to our democracy. It is not the party I

have spent 40 years in. If anything, it reminds me of the late 70s, early

80s, but I don't think we have got to that stage yet, where our motto

was no compromise with the electorate. We are not at that stage

but we have to be careful. There is the by-election tonight and John

Pienaar is in Oldham at the count. John, they are still counting. Give

us an update. You might have heard that crowd of Labour supporters

cheering behind me. They have started celebrating already. We will

get the result in about an hour, but Labour is going to hold the seat,

and hold it better than they might have done and better than some had

feared. There was talk of Labour possibly losing this stronghold seat

at the beginning of this campaign. The UK Independence Party were the

challenger, and they fought campaign from the beginning which was all

about a referendum on Jeremy Corbyn. And it has played well their point

of view, with many white, working-class British Labour voters

who did not like Jeremy Corbyn saying he was not happy with shoot

to kill for terrorists and any other number of damaging headlines in

recent days and weeks. But Labour have had things going for them.

There are a lot of ethnically Asian voters here, strong Labour voters,

who have been turning out. A difficult demographic, that was how

Nigel Farage delicately described it. On the ground, they had the

strongest campaign, with Labour Party stall wards being reinforced

by young ministers and new members, and Jeremy Corbyn tweeted a picture

of himself talking to voters here, which went out about half an hour

after the polls closed. How is that for commitment? Thank you. Let's

hope we get the result in an hour. Did Ukip ever have much of a hope of

winning this? We said we wanted to crack open the Labour vote. That was

our game plan. We will be happy if we have, shall

we say, done serious damage to the majority that Michael Meacher had

previously. Whether we are talking about 3,000 votes, 2,000 votes,

5,000 votes we have nibbled away at, who is to say. But we have been

pleased with the result. We have been the story through the campaign.

I think that we will be the story tomorrow.

You could be a good second. Is there a sense since the election

that Ukip has been in the doll drums? I don't think so. What has

happened up until and soon after the general election, the battle plan

from, let's say my political opponents was very much to target

Nigel. Nigel all of the time. Less in so of terms of the party. The

minute he did not win the seat in south Thanet, the pressure was off.

When it comes down to it, eight months since the general election,

it has been quiet, without the by-election, there would not be the

interest in the political scene that there has been.

We will let you go for the moment. Now, one thing that many fans

of Jeremy Corbyn say is that whatever his views, you can't deny

that he's a man of principle. So when Jeremy said this week that

his opposition to bombing the Islamic State in Syria was not

a matter of "pacifism but hard-headed realism", his fans

must have felt a little let down. Because that's exactly the kind

of thing Henry Kissinger might say, and where's the fun

in hard-headed realism? So that's why we're putting

"principles" in this week's You don't like it, change

the station, you don't like it, don't take photos, you don't like

it, don't print in your newspaper. His outspoken views have hit

the headlines but do we still admire new heavyweight world champion

Tyson Fury for not throwing in the There is principle

in opposing military action as there is principle

in supporting military action. In the end it came

down to a matter of conscience. In granting a free vote on Syria,

did Jeremy Corbyn show that respecting others' views remains

his guiding principle, even It certainly looks

like a principled gesture. Facebook founder, Mark Zuckerberg,

will give away 99% But is it a good thing

when wealthy people pick their charities, or would it be

better if they just paid more tax? Marin Alsop, the first female

conductor of the Last Night of the Proms shows that a big gig also

lets you make a point of principle. Inequality is one

of the greatest challenges facing us today, whether it is gender, racial,

economic, ethnic inequality. So how easy is it to stay true to

your principles, especially if working in

the public eye puts you at greater And we're joined in the studio

by conductor Marin Alsop, musical director of the Baltimore Symphony

Orchestra and the first woman to Welcome. Was there a point of

principle for you to use that as a platform to say what you did? Well,

especially being the first woman to do something like this, it was an

opportunity to at least reference it.

It is ouch a key element, I'm always asked about it. So it seemed

opportune to speak about it. Because of you being the first woman

to do this, it was therefore, you are regarded as legitimate for you

to say things about gender and equality? Definitely. It would have

been inappropriate for me not to reference it when everybody was

talking about it. It is pathetic it can be 2013, 2015, and still have

firsts for women, huh? Did anybody say, just conduct the music, don't

get involved? They have said that to me for years. But I think it is

important when one has an opportunity to stand up for,

especially for the generations to come, and for the future, young

people need to see that there are runts for them. I think.

As people become more successful, is it more difficult to hold on to

principles as you have done, or to use the bully pulpit, to take

advantage of the fame and the position to get across the

principles that you believe in? It is ironic as my work is all about

not using language it is all about gesture. Yet gesture can be

principled as well with a lot of connotations. But I really feel as

an ambassador for the arts that it is my responsibility to speak up

about the arts, especially. Looking at politics on both sides of

the Atlantic, could our politics do with more principle? How do we

define principle? That is a big question.

I believe that principle is born out of study and self-examination and

education, not just out of spouting some kind of fanatical belief.

Did you get a good reaction to what you did? Yes. I only heard about the

good reactions, so. I'm sure that there are some people who, that, you

know, don't think women should have the same opportunities, otherwise we

wouldn't be living in the world we live in today with inequality. So I

think it is important to move through these things. Most of the

reactions were positive. Because there are so few, I think I am

right, of the major Symphony Orchestras, so few female conductors

you have provided a role model? As I started conducting more and more. I

thought that there would be a lot more women on the podiums of the

world. Then ten years went by, 20, 25, if I don't try to change the

landscape, I'm not sure who is going to do it.

If you are well known, you have a reputation but stick to your

principles, there is a risk you alienate part of the people you are

trying to appeal to? I suppose but it depends. Principles at the

expense of what? My principles are very, very personal. My personal

principles, I don't think I am spouting. I really am standing up

for the future generations. All children in my opinion should have

access to art it brings out the best in humanity it is a microcosm of

goodness exists, what brilliance exists and all children need that

opportunity it is my job to speak for that.

You certainly did that on that last night that is for sure. What is next

in your musical career? Lots of things. I am director with Sao Paulo

and with the BBC symphony tomorrow night.

Keeping them in shape? Or maybe the reverse.

I have heard they are a rowdy bunch being from the BBC.

So far, so good. What are you conducting tomorrow? A

piece by Pytor Ilyich Tchaikovsky. And it is taking place? At the

Barbican. Now that's not your lot for tonight,

folks, because we're giving Lou Lou's a miss tonight, despite

it being Alan Yentob's leaving party, and despite the promise

of Camilla Batmanghelidjh cutting Instead, we're heading back to the

count in Oldham for the very latest. And in a few moments Michael and

Alan will be replaced by a proper political panel with the staying

power to keep going till dawn, MPs with bladders of steel, who will

make John Bercow's 11 hours in the Speaker's chair during the debate

on Wednesday look lightweight. It's a miracle Michael and Alan both

last the 45 minutes quite frankly. But first, it has been

a cold December campaign in Oldham. We sent Adam Fleming to

find out how it went. The story of Oldham is the story

of its grand old town Hall. It was built in the middle

of the 19th century, when Oldham was Then the industry disappeared,

and it started looking a bit tatty round the edges

before being abandoned altogether. Now, it's being turned

into a seven-screen cinema. This corner of the north-west

of England, where the population is about a quarter

Pakistani and Bangladeshi, has been Michael Meacher retained it

at the general election with Labour's candidate is the leader

of the local council, but he had to answer a lot of questions about his

leader, because it is the party's He's a very honest man,

a man of principle and substance There is big stuff happening

in the world at the moment, Syria, There's no doubt that people

will raise that on the door. It's on the news every night

when people come home from work and What I'm really pleased

about is just how warm It's quite upbeat, and the challenge

for us is to make sure people Ukip mention Jeremy Corbyn

as often as they can. This is the third by-election

in this area for their candidate, What is with this

presidential podium? That is for when

our leader comes up to support me. I wouldn't dare present from there

when I know Nigel is coming up. It's not that three by-elections

have gone to your head and you've I'm going to see the doctor after

this one because I must be mad. I'm doing it

because I really believe in what we stand for and what we're trying to

do to get our country back. The Tories were beaten

into third place by Ukip in May. This time their leaflets

were resolutely local. It's a local plan, a three-point

plan, based on issues that affect people every day and have

an effect on their everyday lives. First of all it is tackling

crime and anti-social behavior. Secondly, better public

transport and more investment. Thirdly, cleaning up our streets,

dealing with the blight of potholes, While the Lib Dems campaigned at the

local mosque on a national picture. We were the only party

in parliament that stood up Thankfully, the Tories have now

come on board with our campaign But we are still concerned that

there is 12 billion cuts in welfare. And the Green candidate,

who is deaf and speaks through an interpreter, took me to a local

spot that is about to be built on. This is being planned now to build

a warehouse and houses, so this whole area is going to be

affected with more traffic. It will create employment

but the people that live in this local area are really going

to miss this beautiful environment. They all want to represent

an area of the north-west of England where Winston Churchill began

his parliamentary career. It's also claimed to be the place

where fish and chips were invented. There's even

a blue plaque commemorating it in the town centre, which gives me

an idea for a by-election quiz. When was the last time you went to

a chippy and what did you have? Three days ago, fish,

chips and peas. There's one next door here and I

have to stop myself going in there because I could definitely

do fish and chips every day. I have a terrible diet

so I eat far too many chips. Is it a very green thing,

fish and chips? What we need is

a mixed balanced diet with lots Did you know that mushy peas

count as one of your five a day? If I'm honest, there's more

appetite for fish and chips here We'll find out who tastes victory

in a few hours' time. Welcome to viewers on the

BBC News Channel to a This Week And joining for the duration,

Labour's Shadow Cabinet minister, The Financial Secretary to

the Treasury, David Gauke. And the Lib Dem Chief Whip

in the Lords, Dick Newby. Welcome all. Let's go back up to

Oldham to look in the hall. The counting is going on it looks like

it has pretty much come to an end. We may not be here all through the

night. We may get the result quickly. We are told that the

turnout was 40%. Higher than expected. Higher than has been at

by-elections. And the BBC's Political Correspondent, John

Pienaar is in no doubt that Labour has won this seat.

And of course, Jon Ashworth there should have been no doubt in them

winning? No, of course. If the reports are true, we have held on

comfortably. It is a tremendous result. A reflection of the

brilliant candidate we have in Jim McMahon. He is going to have a great

future in Westminster. He is going places. He has been running the

council. Doing great things there. A national figure in the local

government community. The LGA, so on. He will have a great future in

Westminster. What are you being told, how big is

the victory? I have been picking up on Twitter, that there are

suggestions of 7,000 majority, 10,000 majority. But it is only off

Twitter. It could be wrong. But if that is the margin of the victory it

is a good victory. Let's go to Paul Nuttall, good

morning to you. Have you lost? I can't hear a thing.

Paul Nuttall can you hear me? Andrew, it is really muffled.

All right, Paul. Let me see if I can speak clearly and you can hear me.

Have you lost the by-election? Ah, OK. It looks as if Labour have held

this seat it looks as though we have also increased our vote share. It

looks as though we have halved their majority. So on the whole it is not

a bad night for Ukip. Equally not a great night for the Labour Party as

their majority would have been halved.

I understand you said to another Channel you accused Labour of,

"Engaging in dangerous identity politics in Oldham West." What did

you mean? Because the Labour Party focussed the campaign on a

particular part of the community. To get a block vote. I have never seen

anything like this in terms of postal voting. The postal vote went

up 15% on the day. I have to congratulate the Labour Party for

running a successful postal vote election. But it throws up the

question of democracy. Why bother having polling days? The election

was probably over a week before the election took place. I think we have

to go back to a system where people sign up for postal votes. You are

either in the Armed Forces, or working on rigs it is a frontal

democracy. What is wrong with getting people to

vote by post? What is wrong with Labour organising its postal vote.

All of the parties try to organise that'll a their postal vote as well

as getting the vote out on the day? Well, we have had problems in Tower

Hamlets with this, in Birmingham. I can foe see more problems to come in

the northern seats in the years to come. I think that now is the time

to say enough is enough. Let's go back to the old system where the

voters decided on election day and not a week before the election takes

place. But let me be clear, you are not accusing anybody of wrongdoing

here? No, I'm not. I am saying that the system is broken, that the

system is wrong, that the system is unfair. Of course it give as great

advantage to the encumbant and those who run the council. They know where

their voters are. I have to congratulate the Labour Party for

ensuring that the postal vote goes up 15% in a day. I have never seen

anything like it. There are boxes coming out, postal votes whereby

Labour are getting 99% of the vote. You have said it twice now in the

short interview, you said it with a smile on your face. Is there a

hidden meaning? Sorry, I didn't catch that. You have

emphasised, twice, the size of the Labour postal vote and how it has

gone on so much Labour's way, with a smile on your face, as you

congratulate them. What is the real meaning you are trying to give us? I

am saying it with sarcasm. I think the system is broken, wrong and

undemocratic, and we should simply go back to the old system where the

election is decided on election day, and not a week before when there is

a lot of campaigning to calm and people have already voted. I think

it is wrong and if the Conservative government had anything about them

they would instigate some sort of investigation into this system. I

would suggest by the end of that investigation they would do away

with it altogether and we would go back to a system befitting of a

great democratic country. On the matter of identity politics, I take

it you are referring to the British -Asian vote in the constituency,

about 25%, voting strongly Labour, and it would seem they have come out

for Labour this time. All parties try to maximise support in

particular communities. What is wrong with what Labour has done?

Well, look, if you focus your campaign on one particular part of

the community, I think you will end up in hock to that community,

particularly if your MP has been elected off the back of postal votes

from within that community. I think it is wrong and an affront to

democracy. I am not criticising the people here, Andrew, I am

criticising the process of postal voting on demand which was brought

in by Tony Blair to push up the turnout in elections. Actually, what

it has done, as seen in Tower Hamlets and Birmingham, is to give

an open goal to those who want to cheat the system. I was asking about

identity politics. It is surely not an affront to democracy that British

Asians in the constituency have voted in large numbers for a local

candidate, not a British-Asian himself, but a well-known local

candidate with a long council record. That is not an affront to

democracy, is it? The affront to democracy is that huge numbers of

people in this constituency have voted by post, and a big number have

voted a week before, over a week in some cases, before the election has

taken place, and there was a lot of campaigning time lost as a result. I

believe that is grossly unfair. A big chunk of the vote within the

Asian community has come from postal vote it, and I don't think that is

actually fair to smaller parties like ourselves, to insurgent

parties, because it plays into the hands of the incumbents and those

who run the council. Thank you for joining us live from Oldham, where

the count seems to have come to an end and we expect the result very

shortly. Paul Nuttall already conceding that Ukip have not managed

to take the seat from Labour, although they may well have reduced

the size of Labour's majority. Jon Ashworth, what is your response to

Paul Nuttall's remarks on postal votes? I am deeply offended. I

represent Lester, a hugely diverse city, and I am proud of the

diversity of Leicester. I think people know what he was trying to

suggest there. I was trying to get him to spell it out. Would you like

to? He would not because he knows the reaction he would have got but

we know what he was driving at. For him to be saying there is an issue

that has gone on in Tower Hamlets, or in Birmingham, I think that is

pretty shoddy. If Ukip have lost, he should not be whingeing, suggesting

something untoward has gone on. Is it your view that he is implying

that somehow there has been some, what word should I use, fiddling of

postal votes? Is that what you think is being implied? I think he is

trying to make some pretty shoddy suggestions, when actually, if Ukip

have not won it is not because there are some big postal vote fiddle that

has gone on but because people have not voted Ukip because they do not

agree with their policies and do not believe their candidate is the right

man to represent them. Is that not belong in the short of it, Diane? I

don't think so. We have a two broadsheets, one in November and

another one today, making the point that they are not Ukip members,

let's be clear on that. They were out talking to individuals who were

intending to vote. I will paraphrase one of the remarks, which was along

the lines of, do you know who you are going to be voting for? I

haven't been told yet, was one of the answers. That is an anecdote,

isn't it? You could say that. The other aspect that I understand has

happened with the postal vote, the particular community we are talking

about, and I'm not denigrating them, they have typically had low turnout.

The point Paul Nuttall was making was that this has gone up, I don't

know what proportion, but it sounds like at least doubling. We know the

overall turnout but we don't yet know the turnout in the British

Asian community. He was saying there were more postal vote than usual.

Let me make myself even clearer. An issue in terms of not only the

proportion of turnout in that particular part of the constituency

but also the proportion, and a significant increase in the

proportion of postal vote from the community as well. What is your view

on postal vote? There is a place for them. We are reforming the system in

terms of individual registration. This was the first by-election

fought under individual registration and there were 3000 fewer registered

voters than there had been in the general election. I think that was a

necessary reform and I think it is part of getting it right. Are the

rules on postal vote is tight enough? My experience is yes, but I

have no particular experience of Oldham. I did think that interview,

to put it kindly, smacks of sour grapes from Paul Nuttall. What is

your view on postal votes? I think they are a sensible part of the

system. We have to make sure they work but for Ukip to argue that they

lost the election badly because of postal votes, they are just bad

losers. They have lost the argument is, cannot mount any argument in

certain parts of the community because of their overall stance.

Cannot blame the postal voting system for that, they have to look

to themselves. Bad losers? I would I joined the Eastleigh scenario, which

was an election I've fought. On that day, and it would not be read

different today, I won on the day, but the postal vote was the eventual

defeating tactic. I think that Paul was quite right in terms of

mentioning that it is almost a replication of that, repetition of

that. That does not mean it was an improper result. One of the reasons

Labour had more postal vote is here and we had more in Eastleigh is

because you are a new party and had not had the time to build up the

number of postal votes. That is a fair system. You are wrong. Go back

to what happened in Eastleigh. A huge number of postal votes very

early in the by-election, within days, and then over the space, and

it is not dissimilar here, over the space of time we then gathered in

terms of momentum, but those initial, and this is the point he

was making, that initial group of individuals who voted by post, they

had not heard the different campaign messages. The election was not just

about postal vote but we have aired the subject. I want to show you a

leaflet from the campaign. The only problem is that that is not

from Labour news. There is no party on it at all, but the name at the

bottom is the Ukip agent. Is that proper politics? It is exactly, if

you like, what we have learnt from our political opponents. We were

putting out messages on that leaflet which reflected exactly what we were

getting back from constituents. You are implying that is from some

organisation within the Labour Party. No. What we are saying is a

whole series of messages which, if you were to ask any individual out

there what they associate with the Labour Party, it would be

uncontrolled mass immigration. Under Tony Blair that started the rot in

terms of that. Axing the Armed Forces, look at the Strategic

Defence Review from their time in government. Nothing that the cuts of

the current government in the Strategic Defence Review. I

appreciate that point. All of the points might be fine, but if you

think they are right, why didn't you put your Ukip logo on them rather

than the Labour logo? This goes back to the point we have discussed, we

are complying with electoral law because the imprint at the bottom of

the leaflet tells the voter... I am sorry, Andrew, I am only

highlighting exactly what has been said. It is a slight of hand. I

don't agree with that. I thought you were going to say you did not

disagree, because it so obviously is. At the bottom, if you read the

small print, which no one ever does, you find out, and it does not even

say Ukip, I don't think. You would have to know it was the Ukip agent.

If you were to flick to the other side of the leaflet you would see

the Ukip messages. On one side, and this is absolutely what every

candidate does, you sell your own messages, put your own campaign

messages across. And on the other side, you try to undermine the key

messages of your opponent. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn was a factor in

this election. On that leaflet, it is classic dirty tricks. You did a

spirited defence but that is dirty tricks, trying to con the electorate

into thinking they have a leaflet from the Labour Party with

outlandish claims about what the Labour Party is going to do, but it

is not true, is it? Was Mr Corbyn an issue in this by-election? When I

was in Oldham a week ago we were getting a warm reception on the

doorstep and people were supporting him because of the work he has done

for the town. He was a strong local candidate. Very strong. I got no

negativity about Jeremy Corbyn. Actually, it was all about local

issues. He only turned up once, so you will hardly get negativity when

your own leader won't go along. He was going to go a second time but

then the Syrian vote came. We are told the result is going to come in

about three minutes, so we might not need the strong coffee to see us

through the night. Did the Conservatives really fight this

campaign at all? Yes, we have a good local candidate fighting for every

vote but it is not an easy seat for us, not one you would expect the

Conservatives to win. In these urban northern seats, Ukip is now the main

challenger to Labour. In by-elections, it tends to suit Ukip

well. And in the general election, too. In the north-west of England,

Conservatives won 22 seats. Ukip did not win any. We came second in 120,

which is not a number you should ignore. He came first in one across

the country and none in the north-west of England. Give us time.

I suspect, Dick Newby, we will not see any indication available revival

tonight. I don't think we would expect a Lib Dem revival to start

here. You had 19% in 2010, but you have lost it all. That followed what

happened everywhere in the general election. In a by-election, where

you go in fourth, it is very unusual in that situation to build very

much, but we used it to train a lot of new people and it is part of our

fightback to get people working in by-elections as we have done in this

by-election. Would it be fair to say since the general election for both

the Lib Dems and Ukip, it has not been a great time? Well, we have

done extremely well in local council by-elections, winning a whole sheath

of them in London and the south-east in the summer. We won a by-election

up in Loch nest about a month ago, and we won an election down in

Torbay equally three or four weeks ago. We have been winning

by-elections the length and breadth of the country and that is the way

we will make our fightback. It could be a long fight back because it is

not showing in the national polls. It will not be, because we have

virtually no MPs. We will win the vote by the in local areas, as we

have done in the past. Let's look at the Lib Dem leaflet.

It does not refer to how you are doing in the by-election but to the

number of councillors on Oldham Council. What has that got to do

with anything? It is a statement of fact. Not a statement of fact as to

who is going to win the election! You are trying to imply here that

Labour is ahead and the only party that can beat them, because they are

a good, strong second are the Lib Dems. You could fire lit under

fantasyland politics, couldn't you? It points out we are the 2nd party

on Oldham Council, a demonstrator will statement of fact. It is

another sleight of hand. It is reminding people that on Oldham

Council, the Liberal Democrats are the 2nd party. Where do your

councillors come from in Oldham? They come from the other part of

Oldham. Which is not up for election today. That is true. So it is even

more nonsense. Every Lib Dem councillor on the Oldham Council

comes from Oldham in, a separate constituency, held by Labour as

well. This by-election was Oldham West, where you have not got

councillors in the Oldham Council. You are just making it up as you go

along. It is a statement of fact, the number of councillors on Oldham

Council. Why would that be relevant to a by-election in Oldham West? It

demonstrates that the Lib Dems are active and have been successful in

elections in Oldham. Part of the same borough. So how many

councillors do you have from Oldham West? At the moment, we don't have

any. So, what would you say was worse, John Ashcroft, the Ukip one

or the Lib Dem one? Definitely the Ukip one. I love to see a Lib Dem

bar chart. I think that is great. Fair play to you, but your leaflet

was disgraceful. They normally have Lib Dems winning here and they have

not won anything for how long? Your MPs wiped out, one MEP. The Lib Dems

used to control Oldham Council. But largely from the eastern part of the

constituency. I think we have done that to death, giving our viewers a

knowledge of Oldham politics they have not had four-year is, probably

since Churchill held the constituency. I covered that

by-election, too. Let's go to our newsroom where we are joined by John

Curtice, professor of politics at Glasgow's other University, the

University of Strathclyde. Your thoughts. We have had lots of talk

in advance of the by-election about how big a majority Labour might get

and what would constitute a bad result. We now know the turnout is

up 40%, two thirds of what the turnout was in May. Given that

Labour got just over a 15,000 majority in May, if they end up with

around a 10,000 majority tonight that will mean that they are just as

far ahead of Ukip as they were back in May. That is the first point, the

majority we are interested in. The 2nd thing is that we usually expect

the principal opposition party to gain votes in by-elections.

Governments struggle in by-elections, oppositions do well.

On average, in the last parliament, Labour, even though they did not win

the general election, increased their share of the vote in

by-elections by an average seven percentage points. If we take that

as what we might expect, they ought to go up from 55% last time, up to

62% tonight. One caveat, Michael Meacher did rather well in this

constituency last May, his vote going up by ten percentage points,

among the top 50 Labour performances in the country, so Labour might not

expect to increase that much. 10,000 majority, anything like 60% of the

vote, it would be possible to say that is basically what you would

expect from Labour in a by-election. Much of the speculation has been

about Labour doing worse, but without the vote would go down and

we wait to see whether that is true or not. Given the nature of that

speculation, if Labour are at 50-55%, I think the Jeremy Corbyn

supporters will declare victory. Because of the exaggerated

expectations of Labour doing badly. If Ukip becomes a decent second in

terms of sharing the vote, can they take much comfort for that, or have

they just come second for the second time? This is a constituency where

we know a section of the electorate are willing to vote for a far-right

candidate. This was a constituency in 2001 when

Nick Griffin, the former leader of the BNP got 16% of the vote. That

was regarded as a shock. Ukip did well in the seat in May, just over

20% of the vote it may be that they profit from, if not squeezing the

Labour vote, as a lot of speculation tonight was about but that the

Conservative vote may collapse, that could help Ukip to narrow Labour's

majority even if Labour's shore of the vote is as good as it was six

months ago. Is Dick Newby right to seek comfort

in Lib Dem revival in the local by-elections? He has pointed it out.

But also right to point out that at the moment, that the Liberal

Democrats' performance is still around. The 7, 8% that they got in

the UK general election but so far no sign of a Lib Dem rerevival.

Even if they came second, it would be a reminder to the Liberal

Democrats, that once upon a time they were the past masters in get

the protest vote in the by-elections, and during the last

by-elections much of that was taken by Ukip, it will not be easy for the

Liberal Democrats to reclaim that Mantell. So still a lot of work for

the Liberal Democrats to do before we begin to think of them once again

as significant players in British politics.

Thank you very much, John Curtice. This by-election is taking place at

the about five months or so after the election. Not a lot of activity.

There. The counting has stopped, as you can see. So we are expecting it

in a couple of minutes but mind you we were told a couple of minutes ago

to expect it in a couple of minutes. So, don't hold your breath! Now a

look at the polls, the natural picture. This is the November poll.

The averages. The Conservatives are nine points

ahead at 39%. Labour second at 30%. The Conservatives up a little bit on

the actual result. Labour down a little. The Lib Dems at 7% that is

roughly what they got at the election.

So, showing 13%, what you got in the election. And the Greens down at 3%.

Not a huge change. I suppose if you want to give a little credit to the

Conservatives, given the reductions in the Labour Party, you should be

doing better? It is nice to be doing better.

They are going on stage, carry on talking, David Gauke.

We are doing than we were at the point of the general elections. And

better at the opini polls as. A fair point.

OK. Let's go over to Oldham now to

Oldham West. Over now to Oldham West Royton to

hear the result. For election of a member of party for Oldham West

Royton, I do here by give notice that the number of votes recorded

for each candidate at the said election is as follow.

The official Monster Raving Loony Party, 141.

Bickely, John, Joseph, the Ukip UK Independence Party, Ukip, 6487.

. #3w6789 roughey, Jane, Liberal Democrats, 1024. Daley, James Barry,

the Conservative Party candidate, 2596.

Harth, Simeon, Green Party, 249. Jim McMahon, Labour, 172... The 23478 of

papers APPLAUSE.

The number of papers, ballot papers rejects was as follows.

C, 1 ah 1. D 174, I do declare that Jim McMahon is elected Parliament

for Oldham West Royton. So, there we have the Labour

supporters there. Jubilant that Labour has held the seem

By a comfortable majority too, about 10,000. Let's hear from the new MP

for Oldham West Royton, Jim McMahon.

Genuinely, the result is staggering. I think.

I never imagined that I would be standing here as an MP for the town

that I live in, that I love and that I have fought hard to get a better

lot for. When your neighbours and friends come out and support you on

this scale, it genuinely is overwhelming.

I was thinking throughout the campaign, and tonight, that Michael

will be watching over, I was so scared of letting Michael down, I

can't tell you. APPLAUSE.

And I'm glad that together we have delivered a result that Michael

would be proud of. APPLAUSE.

It's quite a lot of people to thank, I can't genuinely say everybody by

name. We have had thousands of people from all over the country

come to Oldham West to make sure that Labour had a good result

tonight. But for our party staff, for the volunteers, for the

councillor, the MPs, MEPs, working day and night to make sure that we

got a good result tonight. I should thank Carol and the team, Oldham

Council. Is if you have not heard it is the best council in the country.

We have been able to prove that this is how an election count should be

done so. To you the staff, the team and Carol here, we appreciate all of

the hard work that has gone on here. I came into politics as I wanted to

make my little bit of the world a better place. Jack, my son, and

Harry are the reasons why I consider doing this. I want to ensure that

they can live in an Oldham that they can be proud of. I think we have

come a long way. APPLAUSE.

We have come a long way together but there is a long way still to go. We

have laid the foundations for a positive future for our town and one

to be proud of but yes to fight for investment, jobs, resources and I

think that together we have the mandate to do that. I see what the

Tories are doing. I see the Tories taking money from towns like Oldham,

I am sick to death of it. The reason I am making the shift from being a

council leader to being an MP is that I recognise for Oldham to do

well, we need a Labour government. APPLAUSE.

I've been able to do what I have done because of Charlene Jack and

Harry, giving me the support in the background, doing what I have done.

I have loved every minute being a council leader in Oldham. I have no

separation anxiety at the thought of moving on but for awful the staff

that work, all of the council, you are like my family. This was a

really difficult decision to make in moving on. But you need to know, I

will always be here, championing the case and the work you do. I think

you make a world of difference to a quarter of a million people who need

us, so thank you. APPLAUSE.

So, there we go. Jim McMahon, 35-year-old. Son of a truck driver

from Manchester is now the new Labour MP for Oldham West Royton.

He is the leader of the Oldham #k0u7b8 there. It covers the west

and the east parts of the city and the surrounding area. He has been

give an hug by his wife to congratulate him.

No other speeches, the only one we got was from him. The majority was

comfortable. Not as big as Michael Meacher but then the turnout was

lower. Michael Meacher won in May by 14700. Jim McMahon won by 1825 on a

lower turn out. The turn out today was 40%. So in terms of the

percentage of the majority it is pretty high. We can get John Curtice

to do the number crunching in a moment. As that is going on, we have

had a tweet from Nigel Farage, the leader of Ukip who says: Evidence

from an impeccable source that today's postal voting was bent.

We have no idea, of course what that actually means in practice, no doubt

that will be substantiated as the time goes on. Of course, we have

heard from his deputy, Paul Nuttall who has been making a big issue of

the postal vote. So there we have it, Labour hold the first

by-election of the Parliament. Holding it comfortably.

Jon Ashworth, your reaction? Really pleased. I think you saw from the

speech that Jim gave, he is a figure of great integrity. He will have a

great impact at Westminster. A great result. He was fighting the

by-election on the local issues, on the stuff that the area needs,

Oldham needs. Talking about the issues that are affecting the people

on the doorstep. You mean Ukip? Yes. I am made up for

him. Really pleased. It is fair to say, he is more your

kind of Labour than Jeremy Corbyn's Labour? What, a northern

working-class lad? Yes. And in the centre of party? I am not

sure that the labels help. They do when they are embarrassing!

Look, he spoke out loyally about his support for Jeremy. Jeremy is the

leader of the Labour Party. We have won under his leadership. And won

with a bigger share of the vote than Michael Meacher. The calculations

are that he has won with a 52% share of the vote. Michael Meacher got 55%

of the vote. But let's go to the man who knows the real story of these

numbers. Let's go back to our nan the newsroom, John Curtice. There is

John Curtice there. He is maybe still doing the number crunching.

John, can you go through the numbers now? I nake, the Labour vote, up on

what Michael Meacher got. Well above 60%, nearly 65%. Nothing

spectacular. This is the kind of performance you expect an opposition

party such as Labour to achieve in a seat it was defending in the

Parliament. But what it is true is that the expectations set by many a

journalist in advance of the by-election was that the Labour

majority would plummet and Labour's share of the vote to fall. Given

that the expectations were set. Then this result is something whereby the

Jeremy Corbynisters of the Labour Party will take this positively.

On the other side, they will argue that Jim McMahon was locally

popular. Well-known. That the credit goes to him. But the truth is that

for the time being, the speculation that Jeremy Corbyn may be going

sooner rather than later on the grounds he has been dangerous, all

of that speculation will be on hold now until at least the New Year.

And the share of the votes Labour got 62.2% share. Up 7. 5% on the

general election under the late Michael Meacher. Ukip coming second

with 23.3% of the vote. Up 2. 7%. I would suggest. A disappointing

result for Ukip. They would have hoped to have done better. The

Conservative voting collapsed in half. They got 9.3% of the vote,

down 9. 6. The Lib Dems 3. 7. Actually, there is no change for the

Lib Dems. The greens down a little bit there. Let's put the figures up

on to the screens to see the result of the by-election. There are the

votes themselves. 17,000 compel 322. Giving Labour a

66.2% share. No-one came close.

I suggest that is not a strong second, you are 11,000 votes behind.

It is a pretty poor result, given your expectations? Not in terms of

expectations, it is another very good second. We have, you have

made... Let's, can I just make a point.

You got 23% of the vote, the winner 62% of the vote.

I don't know what Nigel means with his tweet about the postal vote. If

we factor in the postal vote, that may account for the fact that Labour

has seen there's go up by the amount that it has. Ukip have still taken

their vote share up. Not a great result, when you see

that chart. It is not a good second. It is second, and I have no problem

with second. We still increased our vote compared to the general

election, and look what we have done to the Conservative vote, which

should have been the challenger if some pundits were to be believed. I

cannot member any pundits saying that. Talking about George Osborne

trying to say... He is not a pundit! The Conservatives tried to

make the point that they would take on Labour in these places.

Not that any of that means very much, but the Conservatives are

nowhere, is the correct description, isn't it? Obviously we have gone

down and that is disappointing but it is not an unusual result for a

governing party in a by-election, particularly when you have the

incumbent party and then the main challenger was clearly Ukip. It

still causes a problem, that your party, styling itself as the party

of the workers and one nation, you still have a major problem, and you

have been dining out on the northern powerhouse as well, you still have a

problem with urban voters in the North. The northern powerhouse is

about transforming the Northern economy, which is a project for many

years. This is about trying to make a difference over decades, in terms

of improving the economic performance of northern cities. It

is not about getting a short-term lift in a by-election. We will

concentrate on fulfilling our manifesto commitments and that is

the right thing to do. In terms of share of the vote, the best we can

save for the Lib Dems is that it hasn't got any worse. We were not

squeezed. Your vote was down substantially. It is always clearer

by-elections to the front two contestants are and everybody else

gets squeezed. People concentrate on the winner and number two. It has

been known for people to put out the election leaflets which say it is a

two horse race, with a bar chart! Let's go straight to tonight's

winner, Jim McMahon, leader of the local council and now the MP for his

constituency of Oldham West and Royton. Thank you for joining us on

this BBC by-election special. Why do you think you did even better than

Michael Meacher in terms of share of the vote? Well, we put in a lot of

work, we had volunteers from up and down the country lending support. We

had a positive campaign when others focused on negative issues. People

want to know the hope and vision for the future and I think we were able

to put that across. My track record as council leader fighting for

Oldham clearly played out. Genuinely, I have been overwhelmed

by the support from local people. Nigel Farage, and also the deputy

leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall, have been questioning if not explicitly,

the validity of the postal vote. Do you have anything to say about that?

I think Ukip just need to understand that people have the right to vote

for the party that best represents their interests. I can say with

confidence that we represent every community in Oldham and they came

out and supported Labour. What kind of Labour MP you going to be? Are

you going to be a centrist? It is fair to say you are not a Corbyn

Easter. I am Jim from Oldham, I want to be a good constituency MP and

represent the town I love. You said you were worried about letting down

Michael Meacher. If he was still here, he would be thinking you had

done your party and your town proud. We still miss Michael. This was a

big election for us and we are still grieving the loss of a friend. There

was a lot of pressure to get a good result for his memory. If he was

looking down on us today, he would be pleased that people came out and

supported Labour. If the by-election had been last week and you had one

as you did tonight, would you have voted in the Syrian vote with Jeremy

Corbyn or Hilary Benn? This isn't about individuals. This is about

what is right and whether people are satisfied with the case that has

been put. I put on record last week that if I had had the vote for

Syria, I was not convinced that David Cameron fully made the case,

because I have been concern, like other people have been, about what

the end is for that. I could only read what was in national papers.

But that was my position. Thank you for being with us for our first

interview, hopefully one of many when you get to the Westminster and

we see you on the Daily Politics. Nigel Farage is still tweeting, now

saying, as a veteran of over 30 by-elections I have never seen such

a perverse result. Serious questions need to be asked.

Well, Mr Farage, if you have any information which would allow us to

ask serious questions, we would be delighted to do so. That may be a

developing story overnight and into the morning. Jon Ashworth, I would

suggest Jeremy Corbyn will be over the moon about this result, and that

any of your colleagues in the parliamentary party thinking that Mr

Corbyn will not be long with you as leader are going to have to think

again. He will be over the moon and he should be, a very good result for

the Labour Party. We increased our share of the vote and we have an

excellent new member of the Parliamentary Labour Party. He

should be over the moon, as I am, that the Labour Party has done well.

And Mr Corbyn is here to stay as your leader. He was just elected two

months ago by party leaders! Any option the Parliamentary Labour

Party may have thinking he is simply an interim leader, this by-election

gives them no comfort whatsoever. What Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party

has been doing is showing that when we take on the government over tax

credits, they were forced to back down. We were running campaigns

against the police cuts, and they backed down on that. Jeremy

Corbyn's Labour Party is pushing hard against the government, talking

about the issues that affect people on a daily basis. Jim McMahon was

talking about the issues that affect people on a daily basis and he has

one, and that is a lesson for all of us in the Labour Party. We are

agreeing this was not a recovery for the Lib Dems, but it is not much of

a recovery for Ukip either. You are still in the doldrums. I would

accept that if our vote has gone down but it has gone up. I am more

than happy with the fact that we have gone up, even only 3%, as your

chart showed. To us, that is not a party in the doldrums, it is a party

still going places. We had volunteers campaigning, we were not

sing people in like the Labour Party were doing. You might want to

denigrate our leaflets, but some of the stuff you put out, some of the

comments today, pretty appalling stuff. Regretfully, politics is a

dirty game. It is what is starting to turn people off. That aspect in

terms of elections has not gone away. Maybe we should be careful not

to read too much of national significance into this. We began

today with you saying this has been very much local election, in that

most of the candidates were local. The Ukip candidate was pretty local

as well, the Conservative candidate was from the area, too. And local

issues, and the fact that the Labour candidate had been head of the local

council, all of that added up to an election in which local issues were

strong. Local issues were a big part of this by-election. In the last

parliament we were winning by-elections, increasing the share

of the vote, and going on to lose. Ukip did not do as well as they

should have, but it is clear they are still doing reasonably well in

northern Labour seats. The problem at the last election was it meant we

lost a number of Labour Tory marginals because of the increase in

the Ukip vote. So we still have work to do to convince people who have

drifted away from Labour to come back to us. I am celebrating this

result but we still have work to do in the Labour Party. And it turned

out not to be a referendum on Jeremy Corbyn. This was an election

campaign about the local issues, Jim's record and the campaigning he

was doing at the beginning of the campaign against tax credit cuts

that George Osborne was at that point set on implement in. Is Ukip

not in danger, given the number of seats it is second in in the North

of England, in urban areas in particular, in danger of replacing

the Conservatives as the 2nd party in the North? I do think that is

right. There are a number of places where they are second my very safe

Labour seats. We have seen an example of a by-election where they

have not been able to make the breakthrough today. There may be

other occasions where they will get close, but they haven't done that

today. I come back to the general election result. We won 22 seats in

the north-west of England, a large number of seats in Yorkshire, an

extra seat in the north-east of England this year. You can look at

the Heywood and Middleton by-election result. You are winning

elections, like the Lib Dems, are you? We won the last general

election, is my point. We did well in the North of England compared to

what expectations were. Ukip did not win a single parliamentary seat,

even though they did well in the Heywood and Middleton by-election in

October last year. But they did not break through, did not win any seats

from Labour. And the reality is that the next government will either be a

Labour government or a Conservative government. In the end it is

difficult for Ukip to win, unless it is an overwhelmingly white

constituency. That is the blunt truth, isn't it? In the Heywood and

Middleton one, the ethnic vote was only 5%. Here it is between 25% and

30%, largely Pakistani and Bangladeshi. If they come out to

vote, you do not do well. You are specific in the appeal you are

making. I am not going to try and argue against you on that, Andrew.

We have admitted over and over again that there are certain

constituencies, certain parts of the population where we do not appeal to

them politically. Having said that, even in newspaper coverage in the

last couple of weeks there were incidents cited where if you want to

talk about summary from a Muslim background, they were saying they

were going to vote for us. It is a slow process. We are not expecting

to suddenly take John's seat in Leicester South. That is probably

realistic. Give us a final thought. Lots of for that ability, very early

in the parliament, the parties who work hardest on the ground winning

votes, vote by the, are those who will do well in the longer term.

That is why Labour did well tonight. They did indeed. Labour held on

comfortably to the Oldham West and Royton constituency in yesterday's

by-election. That is it from our by-election special programme. Thank

you to our guests and to everyone who joined in. Joe will be here

tomorrow with the Daily There once was a sprout

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