Browse content similar to 07/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight on This Week, as the BBC's epic adaptation | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
of War And Peace hits the small screen, we present | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
you with our own cut-price version of Bored And Peace at Westminster. | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
A mammoth tale of very little, as Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn's, | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
shadow cabinet reshuffle goes on and on. | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
The Spectator's Isabel Hardman is our fearless heroine. | :00:25. | :00:33. | |
Labour is at war but the Tories are trying to engineer peace in their | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
own party. How long before open hostilities break out? | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
And even more disturbing images as the latest Islamic State video | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
Trying to make sense of it, journalist Allan Hennessy, | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
who grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John. | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
Radicalisation is about people's feelings. British politicians need | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims in the UK, all we can | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
expect to see many more new jihadi Johns. | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
unfolds, we'll be joined by our own brooding TV prince. | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Broadcaster Adrian Chiles talks God and religion. | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
However barren landscape, I always get a sense that God is everywhere. | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
Even, possibly, a studio in Westminster. | :01:35. | :01:35. | |
intrigue - just another edition of the BBC's epic political drama, | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
Welcome to the first This Week of 2016, the show which rivets | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
because it's the only way we can be sure they'll stay and watch. | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
And the year has begun with the nation agog | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
at a slow-motion shadow cabinet reshuffle, so protracted it makes | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
War And Peace feel pacy and underwritten. | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
And I'm talking about the 1000-page book, not the new BBC TV series. | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Yes, never has so little taken so long. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
Johnny Foreigner might be fretting about North Korean H-Bombs, | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
the collapse of global stock markets and the Saudi-Iranian stand off | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
But what need have we of such alien trivia when we have a ring-side seat | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
at the home-grown spectacle of Labour politicians we've never | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
heard of replacing ones we're not likely to hear of again? | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
How we cheered when Jo Stevens got Justice. | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
Clapped loudly when Andy McDonald took over Transport. | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
And wept tears of joy when Fabian Hamilton, | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
Giants, all of them, in a land of political pygmies. | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
Legends in the making, at least in their own households. | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
Meanwhile in a world far, far away from Planet Corbyn, | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
Chancellor Boy George has morphed from Mr Micawber to Cassandra | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
in under six weeks, binning talk of a land flowing with milk | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
and honey for claims the economy is at "mission critical". | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
Just what does Gidders know now that he didn't know at the time | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
Answers on a postcard, please, because you only need a card | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
Speaking of making it up as you go along, | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two British institutions | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
loved by all, who've given selfless service | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
and richly deserve their well-earned new year honours. | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
Think of them as the Dame Barbara Windsor, and the Sir Lynton Crosby | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo. | :03:45. | :03:53. | |
Happy new year to you. Your moment of the week. Well, I read that since | :03:54. | :04:03. | |
the momentous vote on bombing Syria, that actually RAF Typhoon 's and | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
tornadoes have only flown three missions, which were all in the | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
first five days. There has been no mission involving aircraft since | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
December the 6th, and only one other mission on December the 25th, which | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
was by a drone. When you think of the havoc this has wrought within | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
the Labour Party, but also the way that the Government said this was | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
about reading the anti-and how this was intensifying the focus against | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
Isil infrastructure, it makes you feel we have been mighty misled | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
about the importance of the whole thing. Much Ado About Nothing? Much | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
ado. Mine is the most powerful man in the world reduced to tears, | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
President Obama, who announced some pretty innocuous measures by | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
executive action. On gun control. Three years ago, 20 kids and six | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
teachers killed in a school in America and nothing has happened | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
since. Tears of frustration. The speaker of the House of | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
Representatives, Paul Ryan, tweeted that this amounted to intimidation, | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
what Obama had said, these innocuous measures. Simply that if you buy a | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
gun at gun fair you have to be a background check, as if you go to a | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
shop to buy it. And few other minor measures, just to get something | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
done. In this country, in the whole of last year, we introduced strict | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
gun control is after Dunblane, 24 people were killed by gunshot. I | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
think that includes suicide. 27 people in America were murdered on | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
Christmas Day by gunshot. Yes, there is a difference in population, but | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
not to that extent. You could see how frustrating it was for Obama, | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
and I thought it was a very genuine moment, when the tears rolled. He | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
cared. Sadness and frustration. I am told more people have died from guns | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
in America than in all the wars that America has been involved in. | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
Now, exactly a year on from the Charlie Hebdo attacks | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
in Paris, and Islamic State is still doing its blood-soaked best | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
to inspire fear in the West, though some think its latest video | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
nasty is more a sign of weakness than strength, | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
as it loses towns it only recently captured to the Iraqi and Kurdish | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
armies, and suffers growing fatalities from the allied air | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
The new video shows, inevitably, the cold-blooded execution of five | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
local men, supposed to be spying for Britain, while a balaclava-clad | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
jihadi with a British accent threatens, absurdly, | :06:32. | :06:32. | |
The new Jihadi John is thought to be former bouncy-castle operator | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Siddhartha Dhar, yet another born-and-bred British extremist | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
known to the security services, who skipped police bail and fled | :06:39. | :06:40. | |
to Syria with his family, simply leaving the country on a bus | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
There's evidence that disillusioned jihadis are deserting | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
But there also seems to be a fresh supply | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
Allan Hennessy grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John. | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
This is the council estate I grew up on. | :06:55. | :07:11. | |
Mohammed Emwazi and I were neighbours. | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
We went to the same mosque and our mothers shopped | :07:15. | :07:16. | |
But our lives went down very different paths. | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
I am at Cambridge studying law and am a journalist. | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
Mohammed Emwazi regrettably went to Syria and | :07:25. | :07:26. | |
Emwazi wasn't the first disaffected British Muslim | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
to go to Syria, and as we've seen this week, he won't be the last. | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
Frederick Douglass said, "Where justice is denied, | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
and where any one class of society is made to feel that society | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
is an organised conspiracy to degrade, | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
oppress and rob, neither persons nor property will be safe". | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
Douglass may have been a 19th-century abolitionist, | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
but he could have been writing about this very 21st-century | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
council estate, and so many others like it. | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
Unemployment, poor education and far too many British | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
Muslims in prison creates a feeling of persecution. | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
Throw into the mix post-7/7 Islamophobia brought | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
about by the fear of terrorism, and you | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Until I went to university, I only knew seven | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
Here, to live on the Mozart Estate was to live on a ghetto. | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
Since Paris I have been on the receiving end | :08:42. | :08:53. | |
I'm sick and tired of people giving me funny looks on the Circle | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
Line when I'm just out to have a drink with my friends. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
It is this social disadvantage, suspicion and alienation | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
which leaves so many vulnerable to political clerics | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
These clerics will tell you that the system is designed | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
"They are against you because you are a Muslim. | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
Follow us, join this pure, truer form of | :09:26. | :09:27. | |
Islam and we will fight the system together". | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
Radicalisation is about people's feelings. | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
British politicians need to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
in the UK, or we can expect to see many more new Jihadi Johns. | :09:43. | :09:52. | |
From the Mozart estate in Queen's Park to the mean streets | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
of Westminster, Allan Hennessy joins us now. | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
Welcome to the programme. You described Jihadi John as a | :10:01. | :10:09. | |
disenfranchised it. In what way was he disenfranchised? Raina I think | :10:10. | :10:19. | |
he, like many other people, as I said in the video, felt like the | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
system was designed to screw him over. So many people have the vote | :10:24. | :10:33. | |
Mozart estate, but the turnout on the Mozart estate is awful. That is | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
up to them. Of course, but you have to question why people don't take | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
advantage of political freedom. One other reason you gave was bad | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
education and you contrast it in with you going to Cambridge. But | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
Jihadi John went to university in London. The second jihadis a | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
businessman. There was a study of 18 British Muslims implicated in | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
terrorist attacks, eight had degrees in engineering or IT, four had | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
degrees in science, pharmacy and maps, and one in humanities. That | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
may be the case. It is the case. That is the case. But something I am | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
keen to stress is that there is no one cause of radicalisation, as I | :11:20. | :11:29. | |
said. It is a causation cocktail. And there are general trends, and of | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
course we can identify those trends and use them to help us try to | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
prevent radicalisation. I understand that but you did seem to imply that | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
there was discrimination. I saw one place where you compare the | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
situation of Muslims in this country to the situation of slavery in the | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
South before the American civil war. The International Centre for the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
study of radicalisation at King's College London has concluded that | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
radicalisation is not driven principally by poverty or social | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
deprivation. The overwhelming majority who have gone to join | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
Islamic State actually come from high achieving backgrounds. That is | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
certainly not the case. That is only one piece of research. The Quilliam | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
Foundation think tank has done similar research and found that | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
poverty and socio- economic deprivation and institutional | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
disadvantage does contribute to radicalisation. Of course it is not | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
the only thing, of course it relies on the individual disposition. And | :12:37. | :12:46. | |
on how they respond to feeling persecuted. Some people choose to | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
channel their frustration by going into gang crime. Others will turn to | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
drugs, others will turn to radical Islam. I am not here to say that the | :12:56. | :13:05. | |
only reason people join Isis is because society has let them down. | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
But the sooner we accept that is the case, the sooner we will be | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
preventing people like Jihadi John and the so-called new Jihadi John. | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
Of course there are numerous causes of radicalisation, but to emphasise | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
poverty or deprivation would seem to me to be a slur on poor Muslims. If | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
King's College London is not a good enough study, a University of | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
Cambridge study which has been used by the British Council found that | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
50% of people who had gone to join Islamic State were university | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
graduates, 44% had studied engineering, like Bill Arden and | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
Mohamad Chatah. These are not... That means many of them did not have | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
a degree. Yes, they just did not study engineering. I have made my | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
point. One other point and I will bring everybody in. We have always | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
been taught to challenge anything that my university says! The more | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
important point is that of course some people have and education, of | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
course some people are not poor, some people have not spent time in | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
prison. But these things feed into the Isis narrative. Whether we like | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
it or not, there are people who cannot afford to eat in London. | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
There are British Muslims who cannot afford to buy their children's | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
school uniforms. That all feeds into the Isis narrative, and they use it | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
to persuade people to join their cause. My point is that I cannot | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
find the evidence that those Muslims who are in a bad way economically | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
are the ones joining Islamic State. Even if... Alan Johnson, former Home | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
Secretary, does this argument resonate with you? Only the bit that | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
says this is not the predominant factor in this. I think you have a | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
valuable contribution to make, because we are struggling to | :15:10. | :15:11. | |
understand the issue of radicalisation. Politicians in suits | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
in Parliament can't do it without the help of the Muslim community. | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
Everything that you have said could have applied to the Irish community | :15:21. | :15:27. | |
in the 1950s or 60s, or the West Indian community. There are problems | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
of poverty and deprivation, of course. Amongst white working class | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
on the Mozart estate, which I know well. We have to get beyond that and | :15:35. | :15:43. | |
say, yes, it must be a factor but are there issues in our society that | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
are particularly problematic in terms of radicalising young Muslims? | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
How can we get to that? I don't accept that it is just those things, | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
but neither do you. I do not want to park on poverty, I want to move on | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
to the real fundamental underlying issue. There is no real underlying | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
fundamental issue. There is no single cause. It is the most | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
complicated thing, it is why we are sitting here. There is no one | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
underlying cause, and that is what we need to stress. What the police | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
-- what the politicians and academics like to do is to try and | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
create hyper rational arguments, formulate tests, here are five | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
criteria and if the individual meets them then they are likely to be | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
radicalised. Let's take the box and throw them, lock them away. That is | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
not how it works. It is about people's feelings and each person | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
will go to Syria for different reasons, and their desires and | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
motivations are entirely different and we should not try to reduce this | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
to a superficial, simplistic model of radicalisation. Because that is | :16:54. | :17:11. | |
dangerous for everyone involved. I found it difficult to connect with | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
anything in the video. I don't think there's victimisation. The language, | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
you said people were obliged to feel oppressed and things like that. You | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
talked about them being excluded, you talked about yourself not having | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
any white friends or not many, and all of these things were things that | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
have been done to you, rather than things that the community had done | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
anything to change. So clearly there is a great sense of victimhood. I | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
think it's quite difficult for politicians and anyone else to deal | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
with a feeling of victimhood which I think is so little justified. As I | :17:45. | :17:54. | |
liked at the background of the estate, the estate looked clean, | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
modern... Can I just say. It was quite difficult for viewers to | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
identify with what you were talking about. The Mozart estate has been | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
gentrified, as many parts of London are and I don't think we should use | :18:09. | :18:19. | |
these very bogged down terms. The second thing is, you spent time on | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
an estate, you did a documentary spending a week on an estate, you | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
found it incredibly hard to be on an estate, you said you found it | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
incredibly hard, now you are telling me that when people say it's | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
institutionally designed, the architecture of institutions are | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
such that they are... Lots of people are brought up there. People don't | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
go, lots of people are brought up in estates, Alan was brought up in real | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
poverty. You don't then go and fight for Islamic state. The point is | :18:57. | :19:05. | |
about victimhood. We'll get to that in a moment... The people didn't | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
feel like victims, they felt like doing something to are place their | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
lives. The young lady, who was the oldest child in the family that I | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
was with, went into teaching. But the estate you did spend time on was | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
a very heavy... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :19:24. | :19:30. | |
We are into intersecondtional issues... I don't know what that | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
means, so can I ask you, isn't one of the dangers here that one of the | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
causes perhaps of a radicalisation is that a lot of our mosques are | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
financed by the Saudis who have a particularly extremist Wahabi view | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
of Islam? Does that contribute to radicalisation? Yes, it does. I | :19:54. | :20:02. | |
don't deny that. I don't know if you expected me to come on here and say | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
no. I don't know what you were going to say, that is why I asked. But we | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
agree it's not the only cause? There are far too many causes and can I | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
just say, Michael Portillo, if you spent a week on an estate and found | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
it the toughest time of your life, please do not patronise me and the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
other people on the estate to say we don't have a right to feel a sense | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
of persecution and victimhood. The line of argument that's led your | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
party to the state that it's in. It's actually the Government. Thanks | :20:33. | :20:34. | |
for being with us. Now it's late, police officers fast | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
asleep in their patrol cars late, but don't nod off on the job | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
because waiting in the wings, ready to protect and serve | :20:41. | :20:42. | |
you another glass of Blue Nun, Broadcaster Adrian Chiles | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
is here to talk about finding And if, like us, you think | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
hell is other people, the best place to deal | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
with your This Week demons is The Twitter, The Fleecebook | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
and our Former Great Leader's World Now this week the nation settled | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
down to watch the Beeb's latest big budget TV series | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
and its brooding hero. Yes Michael's Great Railway Journeys | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
is back on the telly! War Peace also began | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
on BBC One, so we asked the Spectator's Isabel Hardman | :21:13. | :21:27. | |
to roundup a week of drama No, I'm not talking about War | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
and Peace, that's a real page-turner, I'm talking | :21:32. | :22:14. | |
about the Labour reshuffle. Tolstoy's epic novel is a tale | :22:15. | :22:30. | |
of love and betrayal played out on the battlefield and behind closed | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
doors, and this week, journalists gathered behind | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
the closed doors of Labour's state rooms in the Palace of Westminster | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
desperate to hear any gossip Rumours swept Westminster | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
of a revenge reshuffle, but Corbyn's aids spent more time | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
this week insisting they'd briefed no such purge than they actually | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
did sacking people. So we waited and we | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
waited and we waited. And finally, we heard a whisper that | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
something exciting might happen. I decided to speak out a number | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
of days ago because what we have seen in recent weeks is a period | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
over very many weeks, a number of very good hard-working, | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
loyal members of the Shadow Cabinet being systematically trashed | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
in terms of their reputations in the newspapers by people | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
in the employment of Jeremy Corbyn. Next up for the guillotine | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
was Pat McFadden who said he'd been sacked for saying that | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
terrorists were responsible The Labour frontbencher asked | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
David Cameron a question in the Commons about the Paris | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
attacks that, although entirely reasonable, was clearly designed | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
to undermine his own leader. And then, the resignations | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
came thick and fast. I've just written to Jeremy Corbyn | :23:53. | :23:54. | |
to resign from the frontbench. I think things that | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
are being said and briefed They'll do it about individuals | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
and undoubtedly about me. This was hardly the Stalinist purge | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
that many talked up. And, in the end, most of the job | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
moves came from those who'd got bored and sacked themselves, | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
rather than Corbyn wielding the axe. Hilary Benn and Maria Eagle | :24:14. | :24:15. | |
are safe, for now. Maria Eagle's been given her dream | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
job as Culture Secretary, And Hilary Benn's agreed | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
to go for re-education. I'll carry on doing my job exactly | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
as before, which is speaking for Labour on foreign policy, | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
supporting Jeremy Corbyn and campaigning really hard | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
to get Labour elected Perhaps Corbyn's most significant | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
appointment was that of Emily I-love-white-vans | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
Thornberry to the defence brief. It means Labour now has two | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
anti-Trident politicians at the head of its defence review, | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
a sure sign that the party is set to switch its policy | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
on Britain's nuclear deterrent. When the party does switch | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
its policy from supporting Trident renewal to opposing it, | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
what will the Shadow Cabinet members who haven't left | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
this time around do? Will they resign en mass | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
or will they be stuck there forever? Corbyn isn't the only general | :25:14. | :25:22. | |
who's been having trouble This week, David Cameron caved | :25:23. | :25:24. | |
in and announced that his ministers could take whatever side they wanted | :25:25. | :25:36. | |
to in the European Union referendum. It's a sign that the Prime Minister | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
cannot unite his party on the matter of Europe and he certainly doesn't | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
come out of it looking stronger. There'll be a clear Government | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
position but it will be open to individual ministers to take | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
a different personal position while remaining part | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
of the Government. But it was better to accept | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
that the Conservative Party will always have fundamental splits | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
on Europe and to try to pretend And a free vote prevents disgruntled | :26:01. | :26:02. | |
ministers from resigning in a blaze You are now going to have | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
a Government in which there is no total collective unity | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
in which people will actually stay in office apparently, | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
but publicly oppose one of the fundamental policies of | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
the Government in which they serve But the chaos in the Labour Party | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
let the Tories off the hook again, amassed what was actually a pretty | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
decent PMQs for Jeremy Corbyn. Can the Prime Minister now tell us, | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
is he going to reverse the cuts in the defence that have taken place | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
to make sure that those cities and areas are protected in the next | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
round of floods which There was a moment when it looked | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
like this reshuffle could go It was a revenge reshuffle | :26:47. | :26:57. | |
so it was going to be I think though we can conclude it's | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
turned into something of a comedy of errors, perhaps much | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
ado about nothing. There will be those who worries, | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
love's neighbours lost. So, at the end of the week, where | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
are the two main party leaders? Well, Jeremy Corbyn positioned | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
himself as Labour's Stroiker when he was elected promising | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
to open up debate in the party. But this week's reshuffle has shown | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
that there are clear limits As for Czar Cameron, | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
there are rumblings of revolution, but he's managing to keep | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
things in check... Sometimes I think our politicians | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
are losing the plot. And Isabelle joins us now fluent in | :27:44. | :28:24. | |
Russian and English as well. Did Mr Corbyn lose control of the | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
reshuffle, and is it fair to say he did set out to sack Hilary Benn, | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
decided he wasn't strong enough to do it so took two consolation | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
sackings and a demotion instead? I'm not sure whether he personally ever | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
intended to sack Hilary Benn. There were certainly those around him keen | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
to sack Hilary Benn. He certainly didn't appear to be a big fan of | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Benn when he gave the speech on Islamic state and Syria last year. | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
Corbyn is not confrontational, he prefers to discuss and go away and | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
hope the problem disappears but you can't do that when you are the | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
person leading the reshuffle. If he didn't intend to fire Mr Benn from | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
the start, what was the point about the reshuffle? That is the question | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
and what was the point of some of the stories appearing in the papers | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
over Christmas, were they briefed by those who claimed to be close to | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
Corbyn and why weren't they shot down who were supposed to be | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
briefing for Corbyn. Well, were Corbyn's people doing briefing that | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
Benn was for the chop? They have been insisting they haven't been | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
doing that. It's not his media team personally. Was it a tactical | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
retreat in that he saw there would be two big a fallout for the moment | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
or that those around Mr Corbyn, his kind of kitchen Cabinet, but that, | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
as they get stronger in the NEC and within the party, they'll eventually | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
succeed in what they hope to do? Yes. I think he's so much stronger | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
at the end of the week than he was at the start even though the | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
reshuffle looked unusual, he's managed to put an anti-Trident | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
secretary in place meaning both politicians in charge of the party's | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
defence review are anti-Trident. Including the Labour Leader as well. | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
Exactly. Do you think he's stronger? Yes. It's given us a number of | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
stories over a number of days which has been great for journalists. It's | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
been great for Jeremy Corbyn because he's warned off those who'd | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
criticise him and thought that he could get away with it. Is Mr Corbyn | :30:27. | :30:34. | |
in a long march, if I can put it that way to turn the Labour Party | :30:35. | :30:42. | |
into more of his image, is that why Pat McFadden was fired? It would be | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
more strange if he didn't want the party to agree with him and be more | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
manageable. I agree with Isabelle, it's the people around Corbyn. I'm a | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
member of the Society of The prevention for reshuffles, we have | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
far too many. If Cameron's done anything right, it's that, it's not | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
reshuffling the pack. Give than he shuffled in September, why reshuffle | :31:06. | :31:14. | |
three months later? Was he wrong or right to sack Pat McFadden and | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
Michael Dugher? I've been bewildered by people who've been sacked in the | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
past. In this week in particular when David Cameron was there to be | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
attacked on his new theory of collective irresponsibility, you | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
know, Pat McFadden's been an excellent European... So should he | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
have been fired or not? No, I don't think he should have been fired. And | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
Michael Dugher? Look, I wouldn't have had a reshuffle and, you | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
know... So you wouldn't have fired them? I would have left everyone in | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
place. Let's look at a consequence of what Isabelle was saying, your | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
leader is against Trident, always been in favour of unilateral | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
disarmament, the new defence Shadow secretary is against renewing | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
Trident, the man heading the policy review, Mr Livingstone is against it | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
and on the Daily Politics today he was sniffy about staying in NATO and | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
said that that was up for review, although it was knocked down later. | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
Your party, let's be honest, is heading for a position of unilateral | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
nuclear disarmament? I hope not. It's not our policy at the moment. | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
Our policy... I know what your policy is. It's important because | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
it's our policy as recently as our last conference when conference | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
declined to even debate the issue. It's clear that's his intention, | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
isn't it? He clearly wants the party to reflect that policy. Would you | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
fight the next election on that platform if your party adopts | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
unilateral nuclear disarmament as you had in 1983 under Michael Foot, | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
would you fight under that policy in the next election? I haven't thought | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
about what I'll do at the next election. I would argue against | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
changing or policy. I think the majority of Parliamentary Labour | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
Party would and, give than we arrived at our decision through a | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
long process, without people using expertise, I think... I understand | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
that, but let's be honest here, you know that any review headed up by | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
Ken Livingstone, you know what the conclusion of that is going to be? | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
It's not going to say renew Trident? Well, I certainly know where Ken | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
would like to take it. He's heading up the review. Michael, the Labour | :33:23. | :33:30. | |
reshuffle? I think it was just a, you know, a wonderful week for the | :33:31. | :33:36. | |
Conservatives. I don't quite know whether Jeremy Corbyn's emerged from | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
it stronger. I think the impression's been left that he | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
wanted to do more and he's done less than intended and therefore he maybe | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
looks quite weak. It would have been a difficult week for the Tories if | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
the Labour Party had its mind on what was going on. Isabelle, there | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
was never really any doubt that Mr Cameron would have to allow the | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
ministers to go their own way come the referendum the way Harold Wilson | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
did in 75, but why did he admit it this week and say, that's what I'll | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
do? The whips have been working on the assumption there would be a | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
suspension of collective responsibility for months. Sources | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
told me that the reason there was a delay was that actually, Cameron | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
wanted to give the Euro-sceptics a sense that they'd won a battle so | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
they'd campaign for the free vote, they were given it and could two | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
away saying look what we have achieved and it could be a long | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
deliberative process in Downing Street. They'd decided months ago, | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
apparently. He had no choice, did he? I think he | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
had no choice eventually, but I think it's immensely strengthening | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
the Grexit side of the argument. Because? Well, because it's going to | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
unleash some quite formidable personalities who just happen to be | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
members of the Cabinet and I think until now there's been a very strong | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
impression. Like who? Michael Gove. Iain Duncan Smith certainly. | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
I think until now and this is the approach generally applied to the | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
referendum, anybody who is against the establishment position you think | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
they're some kind of fringe loony so you get the whole establishment to | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
go, you have the Labour Party, the Conservative Party, the Liberal | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
Democrats, the BBC, the economists, you know, the CBI will all be saying | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
we should stay in the European Union. Suddenly it doesn't look the | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
same if you have a serious member in the Cabinet. | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
It is what Harold Wilson did in 1975, and you had Michael foot and | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
Tony Benn and five or six other big beasts in the labour cabinet who | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
decided to campaign against it. So Cameron turns out to be the heir to | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
Wilson! I don't think Wilson had a choice, because it was virtually the | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
referendum as to whether we should go in. I think David Cameron did | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
have a choice to come back with his package, get the view of the Cabinet | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
and say, that is the view of Cabinet. Because he is going to make | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
a recommendation. I know that Wilson did as well. We have -- we had been | :36:16. | :36:26. | |
in for 40 years. 40 years later, wrenching yourself out of an | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
organisation you have been part of that is very different. I | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
understand. I don't think it will make a jot of difference to whether | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
we stay or not. Cameron's thinking must have been that people like | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
Chris Grayling and Iain Duncan-Smith are going to resign from the Cabinet | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
anyway and beyond those platforms, so I might as well do it this way. I | :36:49. | :36:57. | |
can understand that. Finally, very quickly, your best guess of when the | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
referendum will be. Mid to late summer but it cannot clash with | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
Scottish school holidays. So it could be pushed back to September. | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
We shall see. Thank you. Now, evidence continues to mount | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
that God works in mysterious ways after he intervened, once again, | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
to save the skin of accident-prone Nigel's cheated death before, | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
of course, emerging almost unscathed from a terrifying | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
light-aircraft crash in 2010. His latest miraculous escape | :37:24. | :37:24. | |
was on the road to Dunkirk after Our Nige was forced | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
to abandon his Volvo V70 at high-speed, when one | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
of his wheels flew off! Nigel claims all his nuts | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
had been loosened - insert your own joke here, folks - | :37:38. | :37:39. | |
and hints at dark satanic forces being at play, though there's no | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
evidence Douglas Carswell The political implication is clear - | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
when it comes membership of the European Union, | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
according to Nigel, it really Which is why we've decided it's time | :37:53. | :37:54. | |
to put 'God' in this week's He's not the divine being, | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
he's a very naughty boy. A year on from the Charlie Hebdo | :38:00. | :38:10. | |
massacre, the French satirists have commemorated | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
the anniversary with a cover depicting God as a | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
terrorist on the loose, asking why belief so often | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
leads to brutality. TRANSLATION: I'm not concerned | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
with the other voices. We apply the Sharia law | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
according to the facts The Sunni regime in | :38:28. | :38:29. | |
Saudi Arabia claims to be carrying out God's wishes, | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
after it executed a noted Shia cleric, along with 46 others, | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
triggering a diplomatic crisis Iran's supreme leader says his God | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
isn't pleased and claims divine But in the UK, are we just | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
losing our religion? David Cameron pointedly labelled | :38:49. | :38:57. | |
Britain a Christian country in his Christmas message, | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
while a former top Whitehall official claims Christians | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
are now viewed as odd and unusual The meek might end up | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
inheriting the earth, but they're not | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
getting much coverage And if religion is having a PR | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
headache, is it easy to forget that many ordinary, peaceful | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
folks are believers, The broadcaster wants to know | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
if so many people believe in a single God, why can't | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
we all just get along? And Adrian is with us now. Welcome | :39:27. | :39:45. | |
to the programme, good to see you. I remember our days on the One Show. | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
You were very generous to me when you allowed me to come on your | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
Autumn Statement show. Thank you. He is all heart! How did you come to | :39:59. | :40:07. | |
religion as an adult? I had always sort of been a believer. My family | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
are atheist but I never found the church to go to. I did not try very | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
hard, to be honest. I popped in and left again. I went to a couple of | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
happy, clappy type things at university. A mate of mine was from | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
Birmingham, lived in London and took me to a Catholic church when I was | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
38. I just felt at home, with people who were a bit like me. It was just | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
a feeling. I can't really explain it. You are happy to talk about it | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
but do you find that particularly Christians in this country are | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
reluctant to talk about religion and their beliefs? Slightly. But when | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
you get it out there, I am amazed at the amount of people who have come | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
up to me this week. The programme went out on Sunday and I'm at a | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
bloke at Manchester Piccadilly and he said, I saw that, bang on. I went | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
to a different mass every day for Lent last year and wrote about it on | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
the BBC website. It was about the third most read that weekend. West | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
Brom were playing at Arsenal, the last game of the season, basically a | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
booze cruise. Blokes were coming up to me saying, I liked that, I read | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
it, I quite like going there. I think people want to believe in | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
something. When I first became a Catholic, a brilliant priest led me | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
there and he said, a lot of it is just superstition. Forget the | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
detail, just be still and the truth will come to you. He said, look at | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
every book shop, the mind, body and spirit section. All my life, that | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
section has been getting bigger and bigger. It is a whole wall of the | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
book shop. He said, that is religion, mind, body and spirit. | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
Everybody is looking for something and they don't quite know what it | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
is. There are strong minority religions in this country, brought | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
by immigrants who have settled. Our history is as a Christian country. | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
Are we a post-Christian country now? We are obviously a multicultural | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
country. Let's just celebrate the similarities between people of | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
faith. I have covered the Abraham Ancer religions, all three in two | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
hours. The commissioner said, establish if you could be Jewish, or | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
Muslim. It is a daft question, really, because what kind of a June, | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
what kind of Muslim? I have more in common with liberals of those | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
religions than I have with a conservative Roman Catholic, let | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
alone a bible belt American. In the end, it did not really matter what | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
religion anyone else was, it was with what degree of fervour they | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
pursued it. But if more people had that attitude, more people may be | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
taken to religion. What puts a lot of people off is that the three | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
monotheistic religions, all children of Abraham, and often from the | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
Crusades to the situation now, they are at each other's throats. That is | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
because the normal people, which I hope I got to in that programme on | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
Sunday, people don't realise that normal people like them do go to | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
mosque, to synagogue and to church, or maybe they don't but they kind of | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
believe. Celebrate them a little bit, it couple of hours in one year, | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
it is not going to hurt anybody. Go along to a church, go and sit there. | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
Churches, like golf clubs, should have social memberships, where you | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
just go and sit and drink. Churches should have associate memberships, | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
where you come and sit at the back. Have a bit of peace and quiet. The | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
name of the programme? My Mediterranean. Tellingly, we shied | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
away from putting in the word God. Thank you. | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
That's your lot for tonight folks but not for us because it's | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
Kyrgyzstan sausage night at Lou Lou's and the promise of some | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
equine schlong has got the entire This Week team licking their lips. | :44:19. | :44:21. | |
But we leave you tonight with Sir Philip Dilley, | :44:22. | :44:23. | |
the ?100,000 a year, three-day-a-week Chairman | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles... | :44:28. | :44:45. | |
There are many ways to pass the time, aren't there? | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles... | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
..which is funny, but not informative. | :44:55. | :44:59. |