07/01/2016 This Week


07/01/2016

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Tonight on This Week, as the BBC's epic adaptation

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of War And Peace hits the small screen, we present

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you with our own cut-price version of Bored And Peace at Westminster.

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A mammoth tale of very little, as Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn's,

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shadow cabinet reshuffle goes on and on.

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The Spectator's Isabel Hardman is our fearless heroine.

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Labour is at war but the Tories are trying to engineer peace in their

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own party. How long before open hostilities break out?

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And even more disturbing images as the latest Islamic State video

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Trying to make sense of it, journalist Allan Hennessy,

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who grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John.

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Radicalisation is about people's feelings. British politicians need

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to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims in the UK, all we can

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expect to see many more new jihadi Johns.

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unfolds, we'll be joined by our own brooding TV prince.

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Broadcaster Adrian Chiles talks God and religion.

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However barren landscape, I always get a sense that God is everywhere.

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Even, possibly, a studio in Westminster.

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intrigue - just another edition of the BBC's epic political drama,

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Welcome to the first This Week of 2016, the show which rivets

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because it's the only way we can be sure they'll stay and watch.

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And the year has begun with the nation agog

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at a slow-motion shadow cabinet reshuffle, so protracted it makes

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War And Peace feel pacy and underwritten.

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And I'm talking about the 1000-page book, not the new BBC TV series.

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Yes, never has so little taken so long.

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Johnny Foreigner might be fretting about North Korean H-Bombs,

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the collapse of global stock markets and the Saudi-Iranian stand off

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But what need have we of such alien trivia when we have a ring-side seat

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at the home-grown spectacle of Labour politicians we've never

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heard of replacing ones we're not likely to hear of again?

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How we cheered when Jo Stevens got Justice.

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Clapped loudly when Andy McDonald took over Transport.

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And wept tears of joy when Fabian Hamilton,

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Giants, all of them, in a land of political pygmies.

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Legends in the making, at least in their own households.

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Meanwhile in a world far, far away from Planet Corbyn,

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Chancellor Boy George has morphed from Mr Micawber to Cassandra

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in under six weeks, binning talk of a land flowing with milk

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and honey for claims the economy is at "mission critical".

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Just what does Gidders know now that he didn't know at the time

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Answers on a postcard, please, because you only need a card

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Speaking of making it up as you go along,

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I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two British institutions

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loved by all, who've given selfless service

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and richly deserve their well-earned new year honours.

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Think of them as the Dame Barbara Windsor, and the Sir Lynton Crosby

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I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson,

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and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo.

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Happy new year to you. Your moment of the week. Well, I read that since

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the momentous vote on bombing Syria, that actually RAF Typhoon 's and

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tornadoes have only flown three missions, which were all in the

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first five days. There has been no mission involving aircraft since

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December the 6th, and only one other mission on December the 25th, which

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was by a drone. When you think of the havoc this has wrought within

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the Labour Party, but also the way that the Government said this was

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about reading the anti-and how this was intensifying the focus against

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Isil infrastructure, it makes you feel we have been mighty misled

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about the importance of the whole thing. Much Ado About Nothing? Much

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ado. Mine is the most powerful man in the world reduced to tears,

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President Obama, who announced some pretty innocuous measures by

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executive action. On gun control. Three years ago, 20 kids and six

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teachers killed in a school in America and nothing has happened

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since. Tears of frustration. The speaker of the House of

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Representatives, Paul Ryan, tweeted that this amounted to intimidation,

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what Obama had said, these innocuous measures. Simply that if you buy a

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gun at gun fair you have to be a background check, as if you go to a

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shop to buy it. And few other minor measures, just to get something

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done. In this country, in the whole of last year, we introduced strict

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gun control is after Dunblane, 24 people were killed by gunshot. I

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think that includes suicide. 27 people in America were murdered on

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Christmas Day by gunshot. Yes, there is a difference in population, but

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not to that extent. You could see how frustrating it was for Obama,

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and I thought it was a very genuine moment, when the tears rolled. He

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cared. Sadness and frustration. I am told more people have died from guns

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in America than in all the wars that America has been involved in.

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Now, exactly a year on from the Charlie Hebdo attacks

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in Paris, and Islamic State is still doing its blood-soaked best

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to inspire fear in the West, though some think its latest video

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nasty is more a sign of weakness than strength,

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as it loses towns it only recently captured to the Iraqi and Kurdish

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armies, and suffers growing fatalities from the allied air

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The new video shows, inevitably, the cold-blooded execution of five

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local men, supposed to be spying for Britain, while a balaclava-clad

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jihadi with a British accent threatens, absurdly,

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The new Jihadi John is thought to be former bouncy-castle operator

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Siddhartha Dhar, yet another born-and-bred British extremist

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known to the security services, who skipped police bail and fled

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to Syria with his family, simply leaving the country on a bus

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There's evidence that disillusioned jihadis are deserting

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But there also seems to be a fresh supply

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Allan Hennessy grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John.

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This is the council estate I grew up on.

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Mohammed Emwazi and I were neighbours.

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We went to the same mosque and our mothers shopped

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But our lives went down very different paths.

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I am at Cambridge studying law and am a journalist.

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Mohammed Emwazi regrettably went to Syria and

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Emwazi wasn't the first disaffected British Muslim

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to go to Syria, and as we've seen this week, he won't be the last.

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Frederick Douglass said, "Where justice is denied,

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where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails,

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and where any one class of society is made to feel that society

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is an organised conspiracy to degrade,

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oppress and rob, neither persons nor property will be safe".

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Douglass may have been a 19th-century abolitionist,

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but he could have been writing about this very 21st-century

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council estate, and so many others like it.

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Unemployment, poor education and far too many British

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Muslims in prison creates a feeling of persecution.

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Throw into the mix post-7/7 Islamophobia brought

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about by the fear of terrorism, and you

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Until I went to university, I only knew seven

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Here, to live on the Mozart Estate was to live on a ghetto.

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Since Paris I have been on the receiving end

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I'm sick and tired of people giving me funny looks on the Circle

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Line when I'm just out to have a drink with my friends.

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It is this social disadvantage, suspicion and alienation

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which leaves so many vulnerable to political clerics

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These clerics will tell you that the system is designed

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"They are against you because you are a Muslim.

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Follow us, join this pure, truer form of

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Islam and we will fight the system together".

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Radicalisation is about people's feelings.

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British politicians need to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims

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in the UK, or we can expect to see many more new Jihadi Johns.

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From the Mozart estate in Queen's Park to the mean streets

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of Westminster, Allan Hennessy joins us now.

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Welcome to the programme. You described Jihadi John as a

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disenfranchised it. In what way was he disenfranchised? Raina I think

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he, like many other people, as I said in the video, felt like the

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system was designed to screw him over. So many people have the vote

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Mozart estate, but the turnout on the Mozart estate is awful. That is

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up to them. Of course, but you have to question why people don't take

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advantage of political freedom. One other reason you gave was bad

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education and you contrast it in with you going to Cambridge. But

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Jihadi John went to university in London. The second jihadis a

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businessman. There was a study of 18 British Muslims implicated in

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terrorist attacks, eight had degrees in engineering or IT, four had

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degrees in science, pharmacy and maps, and one in humanities. That

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may be the case. It is the case. That is the case. But something I am

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keen to stress is that there is no one cause of radicalisation, as I

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said. It is a causation cocktail. And there are general trends, and of

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course we can identify those trends and use them to help us try to

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prevent radicalisation. I understand that but you did seem to imply that

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there was discrimination. I saw one place where you compare the

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situation of Muslims in this country to the situation of slavery in the

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South before the American civil war. The International Centre for the

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study of radicalisation at King's College London has concluded that

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radicalisation is not driven principally by poverty or social

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deprivation. The overwhelming majority who have gone to join

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Islamic State actually come from high achieving backgrounds. That is

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certainly not the case. That is only one piece of research. The Quilliam

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Foundation think tank has done similar research and found that

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poverty and socio- economic deprivation and institutional

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disadvantage does contribute to radicalisation. Of course it is not

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the only thing, of course it relies on the individual disposition. And

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on how they respond to feeling persecuted. Some people choose to

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channel their frustration by going into gang crime. Others will turn to

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drugs, others will turn to radical Islam. I am not here to say that the

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only reason people join Isis is because society has let them down.

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But the sooner we accept that is the case, the sooner we will be

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preventing people like Jihadi John and the so-called new Jihadi John.

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Of course there are numerous causes of radicalisation, but to emphasise

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poverty or deprivation would seem to me to be a slur on poor Muslims. If

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King's College London is not a good enough study, a University of

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Cambridge study which has been used by the British Council found that

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50% of people who had gone to join Islamic State were university

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graduates, 44% had studied engineering, like Bill Arden and

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Mohamad Chatah. These are not... That means many of them did not have

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a degree. Yes, they just did not study engineering. I have made my

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point. One other point and I will bring everybody in. We have always

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been taught to challenge anything that my university says! The more

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important point is that of course some people have and education, of

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course some people are not poor, some people have not spent time in

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prison. But these things feed into the Isis narrative. Whether we like

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it or not, there are people who cannot afford to eat in London.

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There are British Muslims who cannot afford to buy their children's

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school uniforms. That all feeds into the Isis narrative, and they use it

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to persuade people to join their cause. My point is that I cannot

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find the evidence that those Muslims who are in a bad way economically

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are the ones joining Islamic State. Even if... Alan Johnson, former Home

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Secretary, does this argument resonate with you? Only the bit that

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says this is not the predominant factor in this. I think you have a

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valuable contribution to make, because we are struggling to

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understand the issue of radicalisation. Politicians in suits

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in Parliament can't do it without the help of the Muslim community.

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Everything that you have said could have applied to the Irish community

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in the 1950s or 60s, or the West Indian community. There are problems

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of poverty and deprivation, of course. Amongst white working class

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on the Mozart estate, which I know well. We have to get beyond that and

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say, yes, it must be a factor but are there issues in our society that

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are particularly problematic in terms of radicalising young Muslims?

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How can we get to that? I don't accept that it is just those things,

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but neither do you. I do not want to park on poverty, I want to move on

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to the real fundamental underlying issue. There is no real underlying

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fundamental issue. There is no single cause. It is the most

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complicated thing, it is why we are sitting here. There is no one

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underlying cause, and that is what we need to stress. What the police

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-- what the politicians and academics like to do is to try and

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create hyper rational arguments, formulate tests, here are five

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criteria and if the individual meets them then they are likely to be

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radicalised. Let's take the box and throw them, lock them away. That is

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not how it works. It is about people's feelings and each person

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will go to Syria for different reasons, and their desires and

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motivations are entirely different and we should not try to reduce this

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to a superficial, simplistic model of radicalisation. Because that is

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dangerous for everyone involved. I found it difficult to connect with

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anything in the video. I don't think there's victimisation. The language,

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you said people were obliged to feel oppressed and things like that. You

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talked about them being excluded, you talked about yourself not having

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any white friends or not many, and all of these things were things that

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have been done to you, rather than things that the community had done

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anything to change. So clearly there is a great sense of victimhood. I

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think it's quite difficult for politicians and anyone else to deal

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with a feeling of victimhood which I think is so little justified. As I

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liked at the background of the estate, the estate looked clean,

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modern... Can I just say. It was quite difficult for viewers to

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identify with what you were talking about. The Mozart estate has been

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gentrified, as many parts of London are and I don't think we should use

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these very bogged down terms. The second thing is, you spent time on

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an estate, you did a documentary spending a week on an estate, you

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found it incredibly hard to be on an estate, you said you found it

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incredibly hard, now you are telling me that when people say it's

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institutionally designed, the architecture of institutions are

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such that they are... Lots of people are brought up there. People don't

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go, lots of people are brought up in estates, Alan was brought up in real

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poverty. You don't then go and fight for Islamic state. The point is

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about victimhood. We'll get to that in a moment... The people didn't

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feel like victims, they felt like doing something to are place their

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lives. The young lady, who was the oldest child in the family that I

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was with, went into teaching. But the estate you did spend time on was

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a very heavy... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

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We are into intersecondtional issues... I don't know what that

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means, so can I ask you, isn't one of the dangers here that one of the

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causes perhaps of a radicalisation is that a lot of our mosques are

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financed by the Saudis who have a particularly extremist Wahabi view

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of Islam? Does that contribute to radicalisation? Yes, it does. I

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don't deny that. I don't know if you expected me to come on here and say

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no. I don't know what you were going to say, that is why I asked. But we

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agree it's not the only cause? There are far too many causes and can I

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just say, Michael Portillo, if you spent a week on an estate and found

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it the toughest time of your life, please do not patronise me and the

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other people on the estate to say we don't have a right to feel a sense

:20:24.:20:27.

of persecution and victimhood. The line of argument that's led your

:20:28.:20:32.

party to the state that it's in. It's actually the Government. Thanks

:20:33.:20:34.

for being with us. Now it's late, police officers fast

:20:35.:20:37.

asleep in their patrol cars late, but don't nod off on the job

:20:38.:20:40.

because waiting in the wings, ready to protect and serve

:20:41.:20:42.

you another glass of Blue Nun, Broadcaster Adrian Chiles

:20:43.:20:45.

is here to talk about finding And if, like us, you think

:20:46.:20:48.

hell is other people, the best place to deal

:20:49.:20:53.

with your This Week demons is The Twitter, The Fleecebook

:20:54.:20:56.

and our Former Great Leader's World Now this week the nation settled

:20:57.:20:59.

down to watch the Beeb's latest big budget TV series

:21:00.:21:04.

and its brooding hero. Yes Michael's Great Railway Journeys

:21:05.:21:07.

is back on the telly! War Peace also began

:21:08.:21:12.

on BBC One, so we asked the Spectator's Isabel Hardman

:21:13.:21:27.

to roundup a week of drama No, I'm not talking about War

:21:28.:21:31.

and Peace, that's a real page-turner, I'm talking

:21:32.:22:14.

about the Labour reshuffle. Tolstoy's epic novel is a tale

:22:15.:22:30.

of love and betrayal played out on the battlefield and behind closed

:22:31.:22:35.

doors, and this week, journalists gathered behind

:22:36.:22:39.

the closed doors of Labour's state rooms in the Palace of Westminster

:22:40.:22:43.

desperate to hear any gossip Rumours swept Westminster

:22:44.:22:46.

of a revenge reshuffle, but Corbyn's aids spent more time

:22:47.:22:54.

this week insisting they'd briefed no such purge than they actually

:22:55.:22:58.

did sacking people. So we waited and we

:22:59.:23:01.

waited and we waited. And finally, we heard a whisper that

:23:02.:23:05.

something exciting might happen. I decided to speak out a number

:23:06.:23:11.

of days ago because what we have seen in recent weeks is a period

:23:12.:23:15.

over very many weeks, a number of very good hard-working,

:23:16.:23:19.

loyal members of the Shadow Cabinet being systematically trashed

:23:20.:23:22.

in terms of their reputations in the newspapers by people

:23:23.:23:27.

in the employment of Jeremy Corbyn. Next up for the guillotine

:23:28.:23:30.

was Pat McFadden who said he'd been sacked for saying that

:23:31.:23:36.

terrorists were responsible The Labour frontbencher asked

:23:37.:23:40.

David Cameron a question in the Commons about the Paris

:23:41.:23:44.

attacks that, although entirely reasonable, was clearly designed

:23:45.:23:48.

to undermine his own leader. And then, the resignations

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came thick and fast. I've just written to Jeremy Corbyn

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to resign from the frontbench. I think things that

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are being said and briefed They'll do it about individuals

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and undoubtedly about me. This was hardly the Stalinist purge

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that many talked up. And, in the end, most of the job

:24:08.:24:10.

moves came from those who'd got bored and sacked themselves,

:24:11.:24:13.

rather than Corbyn wielding the axe. Hilary Benn and Maria Eagle

:24:14.:24:15.

are safe, for now. Maria Eagle's been given her dream

:24:16.:24:18.

job as Culture Secretary, And Hilary Benn's agreed

:24:19.:24:23.

to go for re-education. I'll carry on doing my job exactly

:24:24.:24:28.

as before, which is speaking for Labour on foreign policy,

:24:29.:24:33.

supporting Jeremy Corbyn and campaigning really hard

:24:34.:24:37.

to get Labour elected Perhaps Corbyn's most significant

:24:38.:24:39.

appointment was that of Emily I-love-white-vans

:24:40.:24:45.

Thornberry to the defence brief. It means Labour now has two

:24:46.:24:49.

anti-Trident politicians at the head of its defence review,

:24:50.:24:52.

a sure sign that the party is set to switch its policy

:24:53.:24:56.

on Britain's nuclear deterrent. When the party does switch

:24:57.:25:02.

its policy from supporting Trident renewal to opposing it,

:25:03.:25:05.

what will the Shadow Cabinet members who haven't left

:25:06.:25:10.

this time around do? Will they resign en mass

:25:11.:25:13.

or will they be stuck there forever? Corbyn isn't the only general

:25:14.:25:22.

who's been having trouble This week, David Cameron caved

:25:23.:25:24.

in and announced that his ministers could take whatever side they wanted

:25:25.:25:36.

to in the European Union referendum. It's a sign that the Prime Minister

:25:37.:25:40.

cannot unite his party on the matter of Europe and he certainly doesn't

:25:41.:25:44.

come out of it looking stronger. There'll be a clear Government

:25:45.:25:47.

position but it will be open to individual ministers to take

:25:48.:25:49.

a different personal position while remaining part

:25:50.:25:51.

of the Government. But it was better to accept

:25:52.:25:54.

that the Conservative Party will always have fundamental splits

:25:55.:26:00.

on Europe and to try to pretend And a free vote prevents disgruntled

:26:01.:26:02.

ministers from resigning in a blaze You are now going to have

:26:03.:26:10.

a Government in which there is no total collective unity

:26:11.:26:16.

in which people will actually stay in office apparently,

:26:17.:26:19.

but publicly oppose one of the fundamental policies of

:26:20.:26:22.

the Government in which they serve But the chaos in the Labour Party

:26:23.:26:25.

let the Tories off the hook again, amassed what was actually a pretty

:26:26.:26:31.

decent PMQs for Jeremy Corbyn. Can the Prime Minister now tell us,

:26:32.:26:34.

is he going to reverse the cuts in the defence that have taken place

:26:35.:26:39.

to make sure that those cities and areas are protected in the next

:26:40.:26:43.

round of floods which There was a moment when it looked

:26:44.:26:46.

like this reshuffle could go It was a revenge reshuffle

:26:47.:26:57.

so it was going to be I think though we can conclude it's

:26:58.:27:04.

turned into something of a comedy of errors, perhaps much

:27:05.:27:10.

ado about nothing. There will be those who worries,

:27:11.:27:14.

love's neighbours lost. So, at the end of the week, where

:27:15.:27:19.

are the two main party leaders? Well, Jeremy Corbyn positioned

:27:20.:27:23.

himself as Labour's Stroiker when he was elected promising

:27:24.:27:27.

to open up debate in the party. But this week's reshuffle has shown

:27:28.:27:30.

that there are clear limits As for Czar Cameron,

:27:31.:27:34.

there are rumblings of revolution, but he's managing to keep

:27:35.:27:40.

things in check... Sometimes I think our politicians

:27:41.:27:43.

are losing the plot. And Isabelle joins us now fluent in

:27:44.:28:24.

Russian and English as well. Did Mr Corbyn lose control of the

:28:25.:28:29.

reshuffle, and is it fair to say he did set out to sack Hilary Benn,

:28:30.:28:33.

decided he wasn't strong enough to do it so took two consolation

:28:34.:28:38.

sackings and a demotion instead? I'm not sure whether he personally ever

:28:39.:28:43.

intended to sack Hilary Benn. There were certainly those around him keen

:28:44.:28:48.

to sack Hilary Benn. He certainly didn't appear to be a big fan of

:28:49.:28:53.

Benn when he gave the speech on Islamic state and Syria last year.

:28:54.:28:57.

Corbyn is not confrontational, he prefers to discuss and go away and

:28:58.:29:01.

hope the problem disappears but you can't do that when you are the

:29:02.:29:05.

person leading the reshuffle. If he didn't intend to fire Mr Benn from

:29:06.:29:09.

the start, what was the point about the reshuffle? That is the question

:29:10.:29:13.

and what was the point of some of the stories appearing in the papers

:29:14.:29:17.

over Christmas, were they briefed by those who claimed to be close to

:29:18.:29:20.

Corbyn and why weren't they shot down who were supposed to be

:29:21.:29:25.

briefing for Corbyn. Well, were Corbyn's people doing briefing that

:29:26.:29:29.

Benn was for the chop? They have been insisting they haven't been

:29:30.:29:33.

doing that. It's not his media team personally. Was it a tactical

:29:34.:29:40.

retreat in that he saw there would be two big a fallout for the moment

:29:41.:29:45.

or that those around Mr Corbyn, his kind of kitchen Cabinet, but that,

:29:46.:29:50.

as they get stronger in the NEC and within the party, they'll eventually

:29:51.:29:53.

succeed in what they hope to do? Yes. I think he's so much stronger

:29:54.:29:58.

at the end of the week than he was at the start even though the

:29:59.:30:03.

reshuffle looked unusual, he's managed to put an anti-Trident

:30:04.:30:06.

secretary in place meaning both politicians in charge of the party's

:30:07.:30:10.

defence review are anti-Trident. Including the Labour Leader as well.

:30:11.:30:14.

Exactly. Do you think he's stronger? Yes. It's given us a number of

:30:15.:30:20.

stories over a number of days which has been great for journalists. It's

:30:21.:30:24.

been great for Jeremy Corbyn because he's warned off those who'd

:30:25.:30:26.

criticise him and thought that he could get away with it. Is Mr Corbyn

:30:27.:30:34.

in a long march, if I can put it that way to turn the Labour Party

:30:35.:30:42.

into more of his image, is that why Pat McFadden was fired? It would be

:30:43.:30:47.

more strange if he didn't want the party to agree with him and be more

:30:48.:30:52.

manageable. I agree with Isabelle, it's the people around Corbyn. I'm a

:30:53.:30:56.

member of the Society of The prevention for reshuffles, we have

:30:57.:31:00.

far too many. If Cameron's done anything right, it's that, it's not

:31:01.:31:05.

reshuffling the pack. Give than he shuffled in September, why reshuffle

:31:06.:31:14.

three months later? Was he wrong or right to sack Pat McFadden and

:31:15.:31:18.

Michael Dugher? I've been bewildered by people who've been sacked in the

:31:19.:31:21.

past. In this week in particular when David Cameron was there to be

:31:22.:31:27.

attacked on his new theory of collective irresponsibility, you

:31:28.:31:30.

know, Pat McFadden's been an excellent European... So should he

:31:31.:31:35.

have been fired or not? No, I don't think he should have been fired. And

:31:36.:31:39.

Michael Dugher? Look, I wouldn't have had a reshuffle and, you

:31:40.:31:42.

know... So you wouldn't have fired them? I would have left everyone in

:31:43.:31:45.

place. Let's look at a consequence of what Isabelle was saying, your

:31:46.:31:50.

leader is against Trident, always been in favour of unilateral

:31:51.:31:55.

disarmament, the new defence Shadow secretary is against renewing

:31:56.:31:58.

Trident, the man heading the policy review, Mr Livingstone is against it

:31:59.:32:01.

and on the Daily Politics today he was sniffy about staying in NATO and

:32:02.:32:07.

said that that was up for review, although it was knocked down later.

:32:08.:32:11.

Your party, let's be honest, is heading for a position of unilateral

:32:12.:32:17.

nuclear disarmament? I hope not. It's not our policy at the moment.

:32:18.:32:21.

Our policy... I know what your policy is. It's important because

:32:22.:32:25.

it's our policy as recently as our last conference when conference

:32:26.:32:29.

declined to even debate the issue. It's clear that's his intention,

:32:30.:32:34.

isn't it? He clearly wants the party to reflect that policy. Would you

:32:35.:32:39.

fight the next election on that platform if your party adopts

:32:40.:32:43.

unilateral nuclear disarmament as you had in 1983 under Michael Foot,

:32:44.:32:48.

would you fight under that policy in the next election? I haven't thought

:32:49.:32:52.

about what I'll do at the next election. I would argue against

:32:53.:32:58.

changing or policy. I think the majority of Parliamentary Labour

:32:59.:33:02.

Party would and, give than we arrived at our decision through a

:33:03.:33:06.

long process, without people using expertise, I think... I understand

:33:07.:33:10.

that, but let's be honest here, you know that any review headed up by

:33:11.:33:13.

Ken Livingstone, you know what the conclusion of that is going to be?

:33:14.:33:18.

It's not going to say renew Trident? Well, I certainly know where Ken

:33:19.:33:22.

would like to take it. He's heading up the review. Michael, the Labour

:33:23.:33:30.

reshuffle? I think it was just a, you know, a wonderful week for the

:33:31.:33:36.

Conservatives. I don't quite know whether Jeremy Corbyn's emerged from

:33:37.:33:39.

it stronger. I think the impression's been left that he

:33:40.:33:42.

wanted to do more and he's done less than intended and therefore he maybe

:33:43.:33:45.

looks quite weak. It would have been a difficult week for the Tories if

:33:46.:33:49.

the Labour Party had its mind on what was going on. Isabelle, there

:33:50.:33:53.

was never really any doubt that Mr Cameron would have to allow the

:33:54.:33:58.

ministers to go their own way come the referendum the way Harold Wilson

:33:59.:34:03.

did in 75, but why did he admit it this week and say, that's what I'll

:34:04.:34:08.

do? The whips have been working on the assumption there would be a

:34:09.:34:11.

suspension of collective responsibility for months. Sources

:34:12.:34:15.

told me that the reason there was a delay was that actually, Cameron

:34:16.:34:18.

wanted to give the Euro-sceptics a sense that they'd won a battle so

:34:19.:34:22.

they'd campaign for the free vote, they were given it and could two

:34:23.:34:26.

away saying look what we have achieved and it could be a long

:34:27.:34:29.

deliberative process in Downing Street. They'd decided months ago,

:34:30.:34:33.

apparently. He had no choice, did he? I think he

:34:34.:34:38.

had no choice eventually, but I think it's immensely strengthening

:34:39.:34:42.

the Grexit side of the argument. Because? Well, because it's going to

:34:43.:34:47.

unleash some quite formidable personalities who just happen to be

:34:48.:34:53.

members of the Cabinet and I think until now there's been a very strong

:34:54.:35:01.

impression. Like who? Michael Gove. Iain Duncan Smith certainly.

:35:02.:35:08.

I think until now and this is the approach generally applied to the

:35:09.:35:12.

referendum, anybody who is against the establishment position you think

:35:13.:35:15.

they're some kind of fringe loony so you get the whole establishment to

:35:16.:35:18.

go, you have the Labour Party, the Conservative Party, the Liberal

:35:19.:35:22.

Democrats, the BBC, the economists, you know, the CBI will all be saying

:35:23.:35:26.

we should stay in the European Union. Suddenly it doesn't look the

:35:27.:35:33.

same if you have a serious member in the Cabinet.

:35:34.:35:37.

It is what Harold Wilson did in 1975, and you had Michael foot and

:35:38.:35:45.

Tony Benn and five or six other big beasts in the labour cabinet who

:35:46.:35:51.

decided to campaign against it. So Cameron turns out to be the heir to

:35:52.:35:57.

Wilson! I don't think Wilson had a choice, because it was virtually the

:35:58.:36:01.

referendum as to whether we should go in. I think David Cameron did

:36:02.:36:07.

have a choice to come back with his package, get the view of the Cabinet

:36:08.:36:11.

and say, that is the view of Cabinet. Because he is going to make

:36:12.:36:15.

a recommendation. I know that Wilson did as well. We have -- we had been

:36:16.:36:26.

in for 40 years. 40 years later, wrenching yourself out of an

:36:27.:36:30.

organisation you have been part of that is very different. I

:36:31.:36:37.

understand. I don't think it will make a jot of difference to whether

:36:38.:36:42.

we stay or not. Cameron's thinking must have been that people like

:36:43.:36:45.

Chris Grayling and Iain Duncan-Smith are going to resign from the Cabinet

:36:46.:36:48.

anyway and beyond those platforms, so I might as well do it this way. I

:36:49.:36:57.

can understand that. Finally, very quickly, your best guess of when the

:36:58.:37:03.

referendum will be. Mid to late summer but it cannot clash with

:37:04.:37:08.

Scottish school holidays. So it could be pushed back to September.

:37:09.:37:11.

We shall see. Thank you. Now, evidence continues to mount

:37:12.:37:14.

that God works in mysterious ways after he intervened, once again,

:37:15.:37:17.

to save the skin of accident-prone Nigel's cheated death before,

:37:18.:37:19.

of course, emerging almost unscathed from a terrifying

:37:20.:37:23.

light-aircraft crash in 2010. His latest miraculous escape

:37:24.:37:24.

was on the road to Dunkirk after Our Nige was forced

:37:25.:37:27.

to abandon his Volvo V70 at high-speed, when one

:37:28.:37:31.

of his wheels flew off! Nigel claims all his nuts

:37:32.:37:37.

had been loosened - insert your own joke here, folks -

:37:38.:37:39.

and hints at dark satanic forces being at play, though there's no

:37:40.:37:42.

evidence Douglas Carswell The political implication is clear -

:37:43.:37:46.

when it comes membership of the European Union,

:37:47.:37:52.

according to Nigel, it really Which is why we've decided it's time

:37:53.:37:54.

to put 'God' in this week's He's not the divine being,

:37:55.:37:59.

he's a very naughty boy. A year on from the Charlie Hebdo

:38:00.:38:10.

massacre, the French satirists have commemorated

:38:11.:38:12.

the anniversary with a cover depicting God as a

:38:13.:38:16.

terrorist on the loose, asking why belief so often

:38:17.:38:20.

leads to brutality. TRANSLATION: I'm not concerned

:38:21.:38:25.

with the other voices. We apply the Sharia law

:38:26.:38:27.

according to the facts The Sunni regime in

:38:28.:38:29.

Saudi Arabia claims to be carrying out God's wishes,

:38:30.:38:35.

after it executed a noted Shia cleric, along with 46 others,

:38:36.:38:38.

triggering a diplomatic crisis Iran's supreme leader says his God

:38:39.:38:42.

isn't pleased and claims divine But in the UK, are we just

:38:43.:38:48.

losing our religion? David Cameron pointedly labelled

:38:49.:38:57.

Britain a Christian country in his Christmas message,

:38:58.:38:59.

while a former top Whitehall official claims Christians

:39:00.:39:01.

are now viewed as odd and unusual The meek might end up

:39:02.:39:05.

inheriting the earth, but they're not

:39:06.:39:13.

getting much coverage And if religion is having a PR

:39:14.:39:15.

headache, is it easy to forget that many ordinary, peaceful

:39:16.:39:20.

folks are believers, The broadcaster wants to know

:39:21.:39:22.

if so many people believe in a single God, why can't

:39:23.:39:26.

we all just get along? And Adrian is with us now. Welcome

:39:27.:39:45.

to the programme, good to see you. I remember our days on the One Show.

:39:46.:39:51.

You were very generous to me when you allowed me to come on your

:39:52.:39:58.

Autumn Statement show. Thank you. He is all heart! How did you come to

:39:59.:40:07.

religion as an adult? I had always sort of been a believer. My family

:40:08.:40:11.

are atheist but I never found the church to go to. I did not try very

:40:12.:40:17.

hard, to be honest. I popped in and left again. I went to a couple of

:40:18.:40:21.

happy, clappy type things at university. A mate of mine was from

:40:22.:40:28.

Birmingham, lived in London and took me to a Catholic church when I was

:40:29.:40:33.

38. I just felt at home, with people who were a bit like me. It was just

:40:34.:40:39.

a feeling. I can't really explain it. You are happy to talk about it

:40:40.:40:44.

but do you find that particularly Christians in this country are

:40:45.:40:47.

reluctant to talk about religion and their beliefs? Slightly. But when

:40:48.:40:54.

you get it out there, I am amazed at the amount of people who have come

:40:55.:40:58.

up to me this week. The programme went out on Sunday and I'm at a

:40:59.:41:02.

bloke at Manchester Piccadilly and he said, I saw that, bang on. I went

:41:03.:41:07.

to a different mass every day for Lent last year and wrote about it on

:41:08.:41:13.

the BBC website. It was about the third most read that weekend. West

:41:14.:41:18.

Brom were playing at Arsenal, the last game of the season, basically a

:41:19.:41:24.

booze cruise. Blokes were coming up to me saying, I liked that, I read

:41:25.:41:29.

it, I quite like going there. I think people want to believe in

:41:30.:41:34.

something. When I first became a Catholic, a brilliant priest led me

:41:35.:41:38.

there and he said, a lot of it is just superstition. Forget the

:41:39.:41:42.

detail, just be still and the truth will come to you. He said, look at

:41:43.:41:48.

every book shop, the mind, body and spirit section. All my life, that

:41:49.:41:54.

section has been getting bigger and bigger. It is a whole wall of the

:41:55.:41:58.

book shop. He said, that is religion, mind, body and spirit.

:41:59.:42:01.

Everybody is looking for something and they don't quite know what it

:42:02.:42:05.

is. There are strong minority religions in this country, brought

:42:06.:42:11.

by immigrants who have settled. Our history is as a Christian country.

:42:12.:42:18.

Are we a post-Christian country now? We are obviously a multicultural

:42:19.:42:25.

country. Let's just celebrate the similarities between people of

:42:26.:42:30.

faith. I have covered the Abraham Ancer religions, all three in two

:42:31.:42:36.

hours. The commissioner said, establish if you could be Jewish, or

:42:37.:42:41.

Muslim. It is a daft question, really, because what kind of a June,

:42:42.:42:47.

what kind of Muslim? I have more in common with liberals of those

:42:48.:42:51.

religions than I have with a conservative Roman Catholic, let

:42:52.:42:54.

alone a bible belt American. In the end, it did not really matter what

:42:55.:42:59.

religion anyone else was, it was with what degree of fervour they

:43:00.:43:02.

pursued it. But if more people had that attitude, more people may be

:43:03.:43:08.

taken to religion. What puts a lot of people off is that the three

:43:09.:43:13.

monotheistic religions, all children of Abraham, and often from the

:43:14.:43:20.

Crusades to the situation now, they are at each other's throats. That is

:43:21.:43:24.

because the normal people, which I hope I got to in that programme on

:43:25.:43:29.

Sunday, people don't realise that normal people like them do go to

:43:30.:43:33.

mosque, to synagogue and to church, or maybe they don't but they kind of

:43:34.:43:37.

believe. Celebrate them a little bit, it couple of hours in one year,

:43:38.:43:43.

it is not going to hurt anybody. Go along to a church, go and sit there.

:43:44.:43:49.

Churches, like golf clubs, should have social memberships, where you

:43:50.:43:54.

just go and sit and drink. Churches should have associate memberships,

:43:55.:43:57.

where you come and sit at the back. Have a bit of peace and quiet. The

:43:58.:44:04.

name of the programme? My Mediterranean. Tellingly, we shied

:44:05.:44:08.

away from putting in the word God. Thank you.

:44:09.:44:13.

That's your lot for tonight folks but not for us because it's

:44:14.:44:16.

Kyrgyzstan sausage night at Lou Lou's and the promise of some

:44:17.:44:18.

equine schlong has got the entire This Week team licking their lips.

:44:19.:44:21.

But we leave you tonight with Sir Philip Dilley,

:44:22.:44:23.

the ?100,000 a year, three-day-a-week Chairman

:44:24.:44:27.

Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles...

:44:28.:44:45.

There are many ways to pass the time, aren't there?

:44:46.:44:47.

Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles...

:44:48.:44:54.

..which is funny, but not informative.

:44:55.:44:59.

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